IFH 774: Breaking Barriers in Filmmaking: The Resilient Journey of Sean Buckley
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Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 774. Start writing, no matter what. The water does not flow until the faucet is turned on. Louis L'Amour. Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

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Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Boulos. A little bit like moving through quicksand. I mean, technology has taken us to a point where you can get into the game of content creation, like, immediately. My 11-year-old daughter can grab her phone and cut something, and it's fantastic. Probably better than some of the stuff I was doing back in the day.

But back then when you're trying to start something, yeah, it's just a little bit more clunky and you're slower and there was more heavy lifting to create content, if you will, back in 1994.

You know, and you mentioned about content creation because like back then you had to if you wanted to show somebody something, you had to actually put it on a VHS tape, mail it or you had to actually print out a whole kit. So, you know, I mean, that's a challenge of itself because because, you know, all that costs money.

It does in time, right? So you're not in the situation where you can be working on multiple projects at any given moment because it's just a bit more laboring to get projects done. And as you say, just the physical delivery of it, you're absolutely right. I mean, the editing of it was – it wasn't linear – or sorry, it was linear. It wasn't digital.

So you're not, you know, you're making big linear analog shifts and changes, but you're just, again, a little more time consuming. So, you know, what was the impetus to start your own production company in 94? I just always loved the concept of storytelling.

And I love creating. So for me, it was a bit of a leap of faith. I left a job in publishing and advertising. I was a little older to the game. So imagine a 26-year-old being a PA on set, sweeping studios, dragging cables.

That was me starting, literally starting in the business. But it was, as I say, kind of fueled by blind optimism and fear. I wanted to build a business of my own. I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit. And I wanted, quite frankly, to be doing what I was very, very passionate about. So it was in the world of storytelling.

So when you finally did actually start your own production company and everything, how did you go about making your first project? Because I imagine, like you just alluded to, Sean...

You probably got you know when you're when you're first starting out I mean Lisa my experience as well when you're first starting out you kind of get a lot of eyebrows Because like you know can you you know can you do this you know can you finance this you know how to do a budget all that? Good stuff, so when you first started out. You know your first project. You know what were some of the challenges with that Well, you know literally you know going through the school of hard knocks right like understanding it learning it and

And quite frankly, failing and using kind of failure, if you will, as fuel to motivate you, to teach you, to make sure that you're continually moving towards understanding the landscape better, understanding execution better, understanding your craft better.

And yeah, first projects were the result of cold calls. You know, hey, do you want to do a corporate video? Click. Hey, do you want to do a corporate video? Click. You know, rinse and repeat. And then moving into things like music videos and stuff where artists were clinging to you is quite frankly, it's kind of much as you are clinging to the artist in this leap of faith. So, you know, not big budgets and stretching budgets.

Stretching the investment or whatever investment you could get, be it your own personal one that you salvaged together to put something on a reel to somebody taking a chance on you, and then you just putting it on the screen and organically building your work, your portfolio. Because at the end of the day, that reduces the eyebrow game. It's like, so what is it that you do? Well, this is what we do. And when they see your work and you kind of get to that stage,

um you start to see just some more success in getting more and more projects so so sean you you touched on cold calling um that's something i've had to do as well um not only just for this but like you know just for you know getting talking to investors or what have you but also uh you know i had an internship in college where they made me just do cold calling all day uh so you know the the and here's the funny part sean the the list that they had

was a bunch of like former clients. It was like an amalgamation list, right? It was like former clients, current clients, all this stuff, right? So they were like, why don't you just sit in this room and call these people all day? So I would sit there, Sean, for like two hours every day after college calling these people. And more than half were like,

Wait, wait. They were like, who are you? And I said, oh, I'm Dave calling from – I won't say the company, but I'm calling from this. They were like, why are you calling me? I'm like, well, they're running this deal or whatever. And most of the time they would just hang up on me. One person freaked out. It was a woman who was no longer a client. And I mean like this woman was like –

freaking out that I even called her. She was like, why would I do business with this company again? What the hell is wrong with this? What the hell is wrong with you? And I go, I'm just some college intern. I'm sorry. So when you were cold calling, did you have a list of contacts that you already knew would maybe be interested? You know what? For starters, I love the concept of a pathway

a pathway into what it is that you want to achieve or accomplish is riddled with resistance. And so if you were to just take the word cold calling, I mean, you obviously immediately, like you went, oh my God, because it took you back to a place which was really, really hard to do. And that's interestingly enough interesting concept to look at now is in the landscape of content because

There was numerous paths to or barriers to entry if you will so it was a high You know cold calling reaching out trying to get people to give you a shot. Yeah, you know You picking up the phone high you own a whatever a flea market. Do you want a really cheap commercial? No, don't ever call me again click next call well, you know all the way through to working as a PA and you know dragging

Gear and passing coffees, but even there you're cold calling it. It's a different cold calling. It's organic cold calling It's a networking thing where you're like, hey you you're an assistant cameraman Can you borrow a camera on the weekend and maybe all? Producing director thing and you can be a DLP and so you're and let's do this and then we both walk away something for our real so you're just constantly moving through the barriers to entry into what it is that you want to do now

In content now, what I actually love is the barriers of entry have been reduced. So that is, and I'm not talking so much the cold calling. I mean, most of your audience wouldn't even know what that concept is. But it's striving to be given an opportunity, getting that opportunity any way that you possibly can. But once given that opportunity...

Technology has reduced those barriers to entry so that you can deliver on said opportunity. You can get access to gear. You can shoot digital. You can get a camera next to nothing. You can frame it up. You can cut it. You can add music. You don't need to drag around a big machine like shooting on film, editing, cutting on an Avid or some of those massive...

editing suites, which were the only way to kind of get in the editing game back in the day. Film processing, the cost of film, like you're not dragging around these big, chunky behemoths to get the project done that you have been given the opportunity to do. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

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And now back to the show. And so what that does, and I'm, and I love it is it levels the playing field a little bit, uh, so that, you know what, you know, you want to go and shoot a small, you, you have tech, you can get, you can get access to the gear. Uh, it's affordable. You can execute it, but what it doesn't reduce. And the one commonality is, uh,

your your ability to or your want or your desire or your um resilience to press through to get that opportunity to deliver a piece of work for the client to to deliver the you know the project that you have been given the opportunity to execute yeah it's uh

I like the idea, too, of what you have to – kind of the resistance, the barriers to entry until you can finally get to do what you want to do. That's what a lot of – and that's why I'm kind of asking a lot about the early start here is because a lot of this is people tend to –

Whether they went to film school or they didn't go to film school like myself, you kind of want to go out there and you realize the barriers of entry now are a little bit lower. So where you don't have to lug around a bunch of stuff, you can make a movie. Hell, we had Sean Baker on here who made a movie with his iPhone that was Tangerine. Tangerine was fantastic. And nobody in that audience sat there and said, I'm not enjoying this film because he shot on his iPhone. The exact opposite.

So that's exactly what I'm talking about. I think that's fantastic. Yeah, and that's why I think with content creation the way it is now, and I'm kind of jumping ahead, but I figured I'd ask this question now. Sean, do you feel that the market is kind of oversaturated right now because you have YouTube, you have Hulu, you have Vimeo, you have Netflix, all these other things, or do you think that the market is...

It doesn't really matter because the quality is always going to be there. Meaning that – No. Okay. Go ahead. I was going to say because I know sometimes you could hear people will lament and say like, oh, my project would have been this, but it got buried by 10 other things that were released the very second I released it. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. I don't – listen. There's a lot of content out there.

But we've gone through a content revolution, and primarily in the way that we've shifted from the audience having content pushed at them. You will watch this show, and you will watch it at 8 o'clock, and it will be Thursday night. So go destination viewing, sit on the couch, turn your TV on, and watch your show versus now.

content now and the audience pulling content to them. So what that's created is a ferocious appetite for content. So is there more? Absolutely. But is there more of an appetite for content? And the answer to that question is absolutely. And the ability to digest content. So rather than watching that

Show once a week and stretching it out and then the content machines in a sense, okay Well, we don't have to deliver season two until this time. It's like well, how about this? How about we spend seven months and we we execute execute deliver and distribute to Netflix or one of the other OTTs an entire series I'm like I mean like ten one-hour episodes and that's consumed in a 48-hour window and it's like we want more and

So it's like, wow, okay, guys, we don't – remember that three- to four-month window that we all thought we had? Well, that's been reduced to 48 hours. Go. Here comes season number two, like now. So this – there is, and I think that there will be –

There'll be a settling. Some of the OTTs will grow. Some of the OTTs will disappear. Some of the OTTs like Disney Plus will come into the marketplace like a King Kong. And instead of them kind of hitting a billion dollars worth of subs in the course of a year, they'll do it in one 10-hour window. But then there'll also be like...

you know, distribution channels that just kind of start to disappear. And the content and the opportunity to drop content on those other channels that are in a sense disappearing, that will reduce the content that's out there. Some of it. But we are in a world now where, again, there is just, because of the control is now with the audience as into how, where, what, when,

they want to watch, or how quickly they want to watch and consume the content. Because that's in control by the audience, now it's completely flipped the paradigm of creating content for an audience.

So, Sean, do you ever watch YouTube or any of those other content outlets that we all have access to? And do you ever watch something on there and think, oh, hey, this person – you watch YouTube short, for instance, and you say to yourself, wow, this person should – with the right team behind him or her, they should be making feature-length films. I mean do you ever find people to work with that way?

Absolutely. In fact,

One of the reasons why I love the way that Buck Productions has grown over the years is it's grown with a very diversified portfolio. And if you look at our portfolio, you'll see a company that's not just, "Oh, we do this," and, "Oh, yeah, yeah, we can do that." No, no, no. We have made over 25 feature films, and we have created and made over 50 unscripted shows, and we've done 12 documentaries and scripted series. And you know what? We've been pioneering branded content.

for close to a decade and then over here we'll bang out a whole ton of awesome commercials or smaller digital theories for consumption on youtube and you know other outlets but in it what

The true value of this diversified portfolio is it's a talent beacon, just as you mentioned. I'm always looking for talent, always, because those voices, that talent is now, because of these reduced barriers to entry, they can be seen. There was a time where you couldn't get your work through the machine, but now you can.

And that is, that's a fantastic byproduct of access to technology that can allow you to do what it is that you want to do. Show the world your voice. So back to the buck model, I've got these divisions and I'm constantly mining, you know, amazing directors or storytellers that might be over here working on a cool digital series for, you

feature film or I might be over here and say wow this documentary team that I just worked with is like so cinematic so such a gorgeously sincere way of storytelling that I want them over here on an unscripted shoe doing show doing all the recreates and now you're seeing voices migrating from different silos of media and that's where you're starting to see things that are really fresh and

And that's what I really love doing. So past what we're doing in our own diversified portfolio, yes, I'm constantly looking at the landscape of creators. And it could be something as simple as

whatever uh not not a tiktok but but but something in youtube that is just you know because you know what's great about it and this is what i love is i can go out to a garage sale tomorrow and i can buy a guitar for 20 bucks and the guitar is fine and i will come home and i will play it and people will want to um

you know, take a guitar and smash it over a counter because it's so horrible. So there I am. I've accessed the concept of being a guitar player, but I can't do it. And I am really, really bad. People are accessing the ability to create content and execute content, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're talented.

where you're finding people's voices pierce through the white noise that is out there is because they are talented. And you're watching something that just moves you. And you're not in a situation where you have to say, well, how much did that cost? How much did it take you to make? Where did you, like, you can ask all those questions.

But it's really at the end of the day, regardless, is it a $120 million superhero movie that moved you or is it this small cinematic short film on YouTube that moved you? And the audience is now more than ever in kind of control of that.

You mentioned the diverse portfolio. I did notice that, by the way, Sean, because I recognize Wolf Cop. I saw that and I was like, oh, Wolf Cop. I go – and it just – I started looking at everything else that you have done and that kind of jumped out because not only have I seen that a few times but also it just – it seems so different from everything else, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, Dirty Harry, Only Harrier. Had to make that movie. Had to make it. And, you know, the team that I made it with was incredible. But interestingly enough is the Wolf Cop was the product of something else that we've built. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

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And now back to the show. And I built this with partners. And that company is called the Coup Company. And I don't, I, I, I've been building it with Jay Jolly and Brian Weed and my two partners and some other partners. And it's just, it is and it isn't a separate thing than Buck. Buck is an owner in it. But what I saw in the Coup Company was yet again, pressing the,

of innovation. And the Coup company is a disruptive model that we basically said, hey, out there, we want to make an independent film. We want to open up a coup, and the coup is called CineCoup. We have a million dollars in financing, and we have a theatrical coast-to-coast distribution with our partners here in Canada called Cineplex.

And we now opened Cineco and we want you to come forward, director, producer, and digital social media head. We want you to come forward with your film. So what we did is a very disruptive incubator that lived online. And we were out there hunting for exactly what we found, Wolf Cop. Now, 90 films came in. And they said, well, where do we send the script? We don't want the script. We want your trailer.

So all of a sudden, you know, great. Now, again, no barriers to entry. Guys are out there making trailers, like literally hobbling together a team, getting the technology, shooting their trailer. And what if people, some more veteran filmmakers would call and say, well, you want a trailer? I need $10,000 or $15,000. It's like, well, then, you know, Sinicu is not for you. This is a very innovative distribution, disruptive model. Well, teams like Lowell Dean, who started out of the gate with Wolf Cop,

They got it and they put together a trailer that blew our mind. And over a 16 week period, we created, we started with 90 and then moved to 25 and then down to 10. And then the top five films over a 16 week mission-based model, which was give us, show us the poster, what's your marketing plan? We developed, fully developed numerous properties.

and then flew the top five teams to the Whistler Film Festival, which is a whole bunch of fun if you ever get a chance to check it out. And through our judging panel and through the fan support, like, again, the coups are, the city coup is about, you know,

fans making movies for fans. They're the ones that are telling us we want Wolf Cop. They're the ones who we're making the movie for. And so it's like, hey, rather than sit in a room and say, I think they really want a romantic comedy, it's like, no, let's build a model that tells us what they want.

And of the top five teams, it was loud and clear people wanted us to make Wolfcock. So that's what we did. And Lowell Dean and his team came from a small town in Saskatchewan, which, you know, to this day, I don't think without something like a sinecure, the coup model, we're finding the talent, the amazing talent, and the idea, which was Wolfcock.

So it's funny you touched on that particular film because that's exactly how we got the opportunity to make it. And I wanted to ask too, when you make something like Wolf Cop, do you feel that – as we talk about content creation and everything and standing out, do you feel like you almost have to make something like that in the marketplace right now where just – not only does the name sell it to you because it's exactly what you think it is. It's a wolf cop, a werewolf that's a cop.

But do you think it also just helps to stand out? I mean, when the marketplace, whether it be on Netflix or et cetera, just gets too crowded and then you can just say, here's something completely different. It's not a big budget superhero movie and it's something that you could put on and it's exactly what it says it is. And you know what I mean? So it stands out on its own just by the sheer premise of it. It's almost like the premise is a character of itself.

Yeah, you know, you have to get through a sniff test really quickly in the current landscape of content. I like to call it a whiffum test. It's like immediately when they see it, it's like, well, what's in it for me?

Literally. And you have a very short window of time nowadays because the choices of what it is that they want to do. Forget content. I'm going to go right back and play Fortnite. Or I'm going to do this. Or I'm going to do that. Or I'm going to listen to an awesome podcast.

you know, podcasts like yours, or I'm going to do, you know, there are so many things drawing at people's time and content consumption choices. So your WIFM test, what's in it for me is like hyper narrow. So you've got to come into that world with something that does exactly that. Wolf Cop. Oh my goodness. This film looks hilarious. I'm in.

But also, it's not always necessarily loud or... Wolf Cop is a big idea. We loved it because it's an IP. It's an intellectual property. Now in the world of werewolf cops, that is our IP. Like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And we're doing some really exciting stuff like that. Well, we made the sequel, another Wolf Cop. We're doing other things. But...

As you move back to that question, you know, there's still other audiences that their whiff of the test, what's in it for me is not, I want loud, crazy, you know, funny. I understand what the concept of the film is right out of the gate by the title. It's something like astronaut, which is a film we just finished, which is, you know, with Richard Dreyfuss and Graham Green and Colm Fjord and,

And it's a film about an elderly gentleman who's still got a dream. And the messaging in the film is, you know, dreams don't have expiry dates. So there's an audience for that. And there with them is, wow, I actually want to kind of see. There's not a lot of films that are made for an older audience. And I don't want to go to the theater and watch some dude in a cape. That's just not my thing. But I do want to see a story that's grounded in some really great messaging and

incredible performances by great actors and just at the core of it, a really good story.

So being that you kind of have the movies that fans want to see, does that help you, Sean? I want to say about investors. When you're pitching to investors, is it easier or is it harder because you're a diverse film company? Because some film companies say, hey, look, we only do horror. Some of them say we only do drama. So does it kind of hurt you or does it help you being so diverse?

It helps us. And it helps us in the structuring out of a business model. I've always been fascinated with the concept of, if you look at a spectrum, and on one side of the spectrum is creativity, and on the other side of the spectrum is business acumen or business knowledge.

And it's weird, but so much of the world feels that you're either operating in this column, call it left brain, right brain, but you're operating as this creative or you're operating as this kind of

you know, nuts and bolts accounting business guy. But my world, the world that I've always lived in is one that I think is, it's going to become more and more relevant. And that is right in the middle. That's where you understand business. I mean, like Buck Productions is a business. Our product is content. That's what we make. But, you know, our product to make it, you know, needs a tremendous amount of creativity. And, you know,

You know, and that's the gift of, you know, that's our focus on storytelling. And it's just films and that's TV shows and that's digital series and that's standing on a set doing a commercial, right? I mean, our widget, if you will, I'm not trying to downplay what it is that we do, but our business widget is we, you know, we make content. So,

By building a company that is diversified, what that allowed me to do is, A, still focus on what it is that I want to do. Because storytelling for me doesn't stop at a 30-second commercial. And it doesn't have to be in a 90-minute feature. It can be in an eight-part, six-minute each web series about young entrepreneurs that we did for Infinity. And the storytelling there, I don't want to spend any more time than six minutes with this awesome entrepreneur.

But now since you're looking at the business model that is Buck and as you know, in the marketplace now is what it's done is it's given us, when I say us, our team, the opportunity to be selective in a sense. So as investors come to us or opportunities come to us or, you

scenarios are presented is because we're moving through the ebbs and flows of production like oh we're going to take a little you know we're it's going to take us a while to put together that film but while we're doing that we're going to make two unscripted shows it's a branded content and a scripted series we're moving through other production um that's the business component of it and giving us the opportunity to be a little bit more selective

in what projects we choose to focus on, what projects we want to get behind, rather than we have to do that project. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. This season, give the gift of the Virginia Lottery's Holiday Scratchers to all the adults in your life. But don't forget to play the holiday online games and New Year's Millionaire Raffle for even more excitement this season. Play in-store, in-app, or online. And now, back to the show.

We got to, you know, all we do is horror movies. That's it. That's all we make. So every horror movie that comes at us, we got to do. That's actually been a very, very, it's given us a position of strength to play a little bit from. We can get to play from the balls of our feet and be wise about, A, the companies, strategic partners, investors, and or content that we want to work on.

Yeah, and that makes total sense. You know, I've seen a lot of the companies that have come out that only do certain movies or certain genres, I should say, and then you kind of get that we just alluded to where it's like you almost have to do everything that's thrown at you because you kind of, you know what I mean? You're kind of down a street, I guess, and you want to be very good at that one wheelhouse, but at the same time, it kind of...

you know, you're kind of at the mercy, so to speak, of whatever the market is for that genre at the time. But granted, I mean, there's always a genre for horror, though. I mean, there's always a market for horror, though.

We just finished a movie called Making Monsters, which is exactly that. I'm very proud of it. And it's a, it's a, you know, funny as it's two directors that had worked with me on one of our unscripted series, but their work on the recreate, recreate stuff was exceptional. And I just liked them and they're fantastic. And,

They had done three short films and had received some tremendous accolades from the short film festivals. And they approached me to say, "Shawn, would you help us make this other short?" And I said, "You know what, guys? You graduated. You don't need to make another short. You've done that. Open this concept up to a feature and let's go there." And that's exactly what we did. We put together a script and they wrote a fantastic story.

And we made a movie called Making Monsters. And in it, yeah, I'm looking at the landscape of horror and it's horror. And we've been out to all the film festivals and it's done very, very well. But yeah, no, that's a space that we do play in for sure. And you're right. As you say, the world has a, well, again, we're right back to this ferocious appetite, right? It has a ferocious appetite for horror. Yeah.

So, you know, Sean, just to, you know, kind of as we kind of go along here with your whole career and how you kind of built up your own studio, you know, what advice would you give somebody who was just starting, you know, right now who wanted to do something similar to what you've done? Work ethic. You know, it's like I didn't go to film school. And...

And I'm not saying that film school is not a great idea. It just wasn't an opportunity that I had before me. But I think at the end of the day is, you know, you have to... There's two things. You have to be prepared in this particular business to really, really work hard. And, you know, and you got to love it because anything, you know, because you got to go all in. And...

And building your own business, you know, you have to be smart about it. And you have to kind of build it out, as I've mentioned. That is a hybrid. It's a business. It's treated as a business. You know, you take the word show out of show business. And, again, just work really, really hard. And then if that scares you, the other thing I would add to that comment is the concept of –

the minimization of regrets. So, here's 25 years later and Bach Productions has been an incredible adventure and I've kind of got to do exactly what I love to do. And I've worked with some incredible teams of people and when I look at what our legacy is, if you will, as a company, the fact that I'm meeting you for the first time and you're talking about one of our films and you've watched it and you loved it, it's like that's our legacy.

We've created a portfolio of work that has touched people. But the minimization of regret has always been something that I think people should really tuck in there in their decision to do it, like to soldier on. Because when you're looking back at your life and you're saying, wow,

I just always think about minimization of regret. I don't want to look back at my life and say, "Wow, I was afraid to work too hard to try to build that company from nothing, and now I've had a great life, and I've done this, and I've worked here, and this was my gig, and it was awesome." But at the end of the day, I kind of regret that decision. Well, if you're operating under the concept of minimization of regret,

then you know what you're going to throw yourself into that situation that scenario you're going to throw yourself into that opportunity and work really really hard to see it through

So, you know, and also we touched upon it before we started this, you know, now with with there's no barriers to entry like this podcast, for instance, you know, there's no podcast headquarters, for instance. It's just that, you know what I mean? It's just a digital recording that is put up onto a pod bean. And, you know, there is no real barrier to entry to this, which I talk about all the time, especially in podcasting, Sean. Podcasting, the barrier to entry is so low that it's almost like I'm shocked when somebody doesn't have a podcast. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I gotta tell you, I keep picturing you sitting in a 2,000 square foot state-of-the-art studio, just so you know, David. You know, it's funny, Sean, I started this podcast in a, like...

200,000 $250,000 studio I actually had a friend who actually the studio was like hey you want to use it and I said sure and I started all of this in there and now I'm sitting here in my little office doing this so I've kind of gone I've gone the reverse method Sean I started out in a really nice studio and now now I'm in a thing in my house but it's actually easier my house though I don't have to go anywhere

You know what? Listen, it's like it's odd. But, you know, look at the cultural shift in in exactly that, you know, that access. It's like, OK, well, guess what? You know, you talked about how did you why started up a company? And then, you know, the people that, you know, individuals and clients need to come to a bricks and mortar kind of a place because, you know, now all of a sudden you were real. You were a real company. Right. Versus we work.

Look at the companies, concepts, ideas, strategies that are getting birthed from places like WeWork where, you know, there is no big bricks and mortar play. How about this? How about the idea, be it your podcast or us, you know, how about J.K. Rowling writing Harry Potter in a coffee shop? You know, there's no bricks and mortar there. And that, I think, gives, again, you know, opportunity.

Again, levels the playing field, but gives creators wings in a sense. They're not labored down with, well, I've got to have this to be real. It's like, hey, you don't. You need less. You need less and you can create more nowadays, which I love. Yeah, that's definitely true. I think it's just something I've been experimenting with too. It's just when you approach different people, don't approach different companies or even trying to go to YouTube. Yeah.

I know some companies do want to see a trailer, kind of like you were alluding to with Wolf Cop. Other companies, you know, they do want to see, you know, maybe they do want to read the script first. You know what I mean? They do. Listen, the Sinicu model, the coup model is something very different. We've worked with, we've done numerous coups now. We've done a coup for a sitcom.

That's an awesome model, all tech-based. Just as a serial entrepreneur, I saw the model. I wanted to invest in it and build it with the team that was working on it. But listen, there is another model, the Milton Secret film we just did.

a couple years ago, that started in a very traditional model. I'd read Eckhart Tolle. I loved The Power of Now. I loved the concept of being present. I wanted his work to be on the big screen. So we worked out the script. We worked the script. We worked with Eckhart Tolle, and we took his book, Milton's Secret, which is conceptually The Power of Now and being present and anti-bullying. We're making a movie with Donald Sutherland and Michelle Rodriguez and

And again, very proud of that work, you know, very proud of the message that it is. I mean, it's extending a powerful message into the big screen and into the content consumption landscape of a film. So people are getting that message and not having to read The Power of Now or Milton's Secret and Eckhart's messages out there. So, but that's a very, you know, that's an undisruptive, that's a very traditional story.

Start with the script, work the script, get the script right, build the machine, bring in the financing, make the movie. Yes, it is. And I think too, again, the different avenues are kind of – I want to say fleshed out. The different avenues are kind of fleshed out. I think you are going to see more of –

different, different ways that people can now actually, you know, maybe they don't have to make, if they have, they already have a script or if they have an idea, they don't necessarily have, they don't have to go that model. You know what I mean? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Like if they don't have, they don't have to go to a studio, they could do, or they could do something like with a YouTube channel. Um, I see a lot of, you know, I see a lot of stuff with like YouTube now. Um,

especially with, um, I forget the guy's name. I just mentioned him the other day. Uh, but anyways, he did lights out, uh, David Stein, Steinfield. I forget. Uh, but he did lights out. Like he did a bunch of trailers on YouTube and then he got pulled. He, he, uh, you know, made a feature film out of it. Um, so it's kind of, it's kind of what we were talking about before where you kind of have a proof of concept or a trailer, and then you can actually flesh out into a whole movie if you, if you can go that route. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, uh,

And it's funny, but if you think about it, here's Martin Scorsese. You look at now, again, on a totally different scale. Martin Scorsese can't get The Irishman made. No studio's touching it.

Nobody. Nobody wants to spend the money. Nobody wants, you know, nobody's going to back that thing. It's De Niro. It's Joe Pesci. It's Scorsese, arguably one of the greatest filmmakers of all time. It's Wheelhouse. It's, you know, it's Casino. It's Goodfellas. It's based on an unbelievable book. And it takes the OTT. It takes Netflix, right? It takes the disruptive model of, you know, what that is to come in and say, hey,

Here's a filmmaker and a team of actors that are, if you were to say, for a certain audience, about as bankable as you can bank, and the studios aren't touching it, yet Netflix does. And in that model, they make The Irishman, which works.

you know does a small theatrical run and is now boom out on so it takes some it takes a disruptive model takes a new new concept for a for a more established team of filmmakers like so there's the young that are finding themselves on youtube they're breaking in here's an established filmmaker and established actors and i mean as about established as one can be having to go through netflix to get the movie that they really want to make out there

Yeah, I actually just saw that too on, because I have Netflix. Have you seen The Irishman yet? I have, and you know, it's long, and it's, but it's, listen, it's, I thought it was fantastic. It's beautiful. It's like, it's some of the best individuals, you know, in the world of filmmaking, you know, sharing their craft with you. I thought it was fantastic.

Yeah, it's – well, you know, whenever De Niro and Scorsese and Pesci get together, the movie becomes like three hours. It's kind of like a rule. I don't know if you – No, it is a rule, yeah. It's love. It's love. Yeah, it's Casino and Goodfellas and now The Irishman. But yeah, you know –

Just hearing about the whole story about that coming out, now Netflix is a whole model now for filmmakers to go to because I remember when Netflix first started. True story, Sean. I remember when Netflix first started, I had a couple of friends who actually got movies picked up by them and the reason they got picked up was because – I don't know if you remember this or not, but Netflix used to let you submit movies to them. They weren't – and it wasn't hidden either. Like there was a button on –

on the website that said submit your movie here and that's how a couple of my friends got submitted or sorry got distribution by Netflix in the early days and they still use that to their credit so like whenever you know 10-15 years now they use that to get their foot in the door they're like oh by the way you know I've had a movie on Netflix and you know people are like holy shit really oh my god

Right. No, that's it. Listen, that's great. Listen, you know, like at one point, Netflix was a business that would mail DVDs to you. You know, at one point, Netflix was almost acquired by Blockbuster. Think about that. Blockbuster is like, you know, that archaic model of you have to go to a store.

Stand in line, take a VHS tape, bring it home, plug it in your system or your DVD and watch it and then make sure that you return it or you're going to get paid a late charge. Crazy. But, you know, again, when Netflix was breaking and being disruptive and breaking through and, you know, mailing DVDs to homes, this, you know, this OTT model comes through and now look at it. The Great Red Tide, as it is called.

Yeah, it's, uh, it definitely has. Yeah. The whole, everything has changed. Um, you know, I think I, I have some friends of mine and myself, I think we're the only people left who still maybe buy blu-rays when they come out, the physical media. Um, but, but I said, Hey, that's, that's collective that's collectors. And I will say this, um,

I love seeing stuff like, in a sense, life is cyclical. Art is cyclical. The world is cyclical. And you're looking at vinyl sales going through the roof. People want, because there's been a massive generation that is, that doesn't, like when they say own content, it's like there's something about lifting that Blu-ray up, holding it, touching it, physically touch, putting it in a machine, looking at the additional footage.

you know, content offerings that it has on it. I mean, you drop that needle on a piece of vinyl, you know, there's, you know, you know, there's an audience that has never touched music. It's just Spotify. It's the Apple playlist. It's this, I want to hear this song right now, put it on, you know, versus taking a record out of a sleeve, touching it, physically putting it on something, listening to the music, fill the room. That's, that's an analog experience. That is, I,

I mean, I think it's coming back strong. And when you look at things like, I'm not sure about Blu-ray sales, but when you look at vinyl sales, you know, they're just increasing. You know, they're going through the roof. Yeah, you know, I have a friend of mine. You know, he has a lot of, you know, physical media. And I asked him, I said, how many Blu-rays do you have? And he actually has a catalog of every single Blu-ray that he has. And he just is shy of 10,000 Blu-rays. Wow.

Geez, where does he keep it all? Well, I'm glad you asked that, Sean. So he has a house all to himself.

And it's basically like a Best Buy warehouse in there. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Some people would call that hoarding, but no, I hear what you mean. As long as it's organized, it's not hoarding. Well, I told him that. I said, I think you're at the verge now where if a pile of these Blu-rays were to fall on you, I said, I think it would be like days before anybody found you.

And he started laughing. He's like, yeah, that's probably true. It's almost like in one of those horror shows where the guy gets – they start unearthing stuff and they find just people buried underneath there under the mountain of Blu-rays.

Yeah, that'd be a great question. Okay, so if you were to pick the top 100 films to crush you, what would they be in your pile of Blu-rays? But you know what, listen, that's content. I mean, that's an individual who, whatever, appreciates content. And that's no different than your, you know, listen, I own a ton of movies. I just own them now digitally. And, you know, I have a digital suitcase of

films, you know, listen, and there's something very cool about going to Apple TV and I do this all the time, like Wolf Cop or you saw Wolf Cop on Netflix, but you've worked very hard to make a film and the team that you've put together and that you've worked hard with, there's a real celebration of getting that story, that piece of content out there.

And there's something very cool about just as a filmmaker, about going to Apple TV and seeing it up there. And, you know, I purchase it, purchase my own film and I drop it and put it into, you know, a purchased portfolio because I don't know, there's something about, you know, it being out there to find audiences. I mean, that's at the end of the day why you do it.

Yeah, it's – by the way, just to mention too that the whole movies that crush you, it's like, yeah, forget about the movies, your top 100 island lists. It's movies on a desert island. Just get the 100 movies that will crush you to death and go from there. That's it, yeah. No, just – I was just laughing at that. That was –

But, uh, but yeah, you know, you're absolutely right. You know, Sean and, uh, you know, I mean, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, about an hour or so. So I wanted to ask, you know, kind of in closing is, you know, is there anything you wanted to say to, to put a period at the end of this whole conversation? I appreciate your time, David. Thank you so much. Um, yeah, I, it's the one thing is, um, is, uh,

that I like is that the concept of looking back and you know when I look at the portfolio of what Buck has created and I've got the I've got the advantage of looking at it from 25 years and the journey is the the one resounding component about all of it is is that that minimization of regret like these young content makers is don't

Don't be, don't tread lightly into it. Don't be fearful. If you have a voice and you have a story and you want to tell it and you believe in yourself. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Now more than ever, there's an opportunity to do it and outlets to get it on. And is it competitive? Absolutely. Competitive as one could ever imagine. But whatever. It's always been competitive because as we discussed at the beginning of this conversation, it's all about barriers to entry. And

If you did not have a 35mm camera, you were not making a movie. Period. Full stop. And if you couldn't get it cut on a $250,000 editing suite called an Avid, you weren't assembling it. So those were all challenging things to navigate. And they're no longer here. But there's more players. It's more competitive, if you will. So I would just say, if you look at the portfolio of Buck,

Super proud of it. Super proud of the teams that I've had the great fortune of working with. And I look back and it's like, you know what? I've enjoyed and still got lots to do, but I've really enjoyed the experience, the adventure and the opportunity to play in the landscape of storytelling, which is something really that I just always wanted to do.

And that's kind of the prize, you know what I mean, Sean, where you get to do what you love and, you know, especially in this market, in this industry, you know what I mean? It's tough, but if you can do it, more power to you, right? Absolutely. So where can people find you at online? BuckProductions.com. We're on Instagram. BuckProductions is on Instagram. Yeah.

And we're kind of updating people primarily through Instagram. We're on Facebook, Buck Productions. And yeah, that's kind of us. And if you want to check out our work, our portfolio, there's a work at our website. And we're always updating kind of what we're doing out there and some of the cool stuff that we're working on on social.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at IndieFilmMuscle.com forward slash 774. And if you haven't already, please head over to FilmmakingPodcast.com. Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.