IFH 791: Beyond the Script: Gordy Hoffman’s Guide to Emotional Storytelling
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 791. First, think. Second, dream. Third, believe. And finally, dare. Walt Disney.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis. My next guest is a screenwriter and director. His film Love Liza won the Waldo Salt Screening Award at the 2002 Sundance Film Festival. His other film Dog Bowl premiered at the 2015 Sundance Film Festival. We're going to talk all about

Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're going to talk a little about Phantom Thread. We're going to talk about all that good stuff because this guest has, you know, been down the road a couple of times. And we're also going to talk about, obviously, the Blue Cat screenwriting competition, which some deadlines are coming up, but I've also linked to those in the show notes. And also, all of the movies we talk about are in the show notes. Again, DaveBullis.com. Just remember that, so in case you need it for later. But with guests...

Gordy Hoffman. You know, Gordy, I've actually followed you for a while. I've actually entered the Blue Cat a few times. I've seen a few webinars, you know,

Not only is Blue Cat awesome, but Gordy, you're kind of like the guy that you want to learn writing from because you're so good-natured and you just have that attitude. You know what I mean? You just seem like you not only know what you're doing, but you know what I mean? You have the personality that sort of comes through, if you know what I'm trying to say. Yeah.

Well, you know, well, thank you. That's very sweet to say. And, you know, I learned probably a long time ago that, you know, when I was directing and when I got into teaching that, you know,

You know, being loving and kind and courteous when you're talking to somebody about their stuff and trying to be, makes them more receptive. I mean, if you ultimately want to help people and serve them and give them some information and help them with their writing, you want them to be able to listen and hear what you're saying. And, you know, people get, you know, no one wants to be sort of get negative or sort of shaming or anything or like be denigrated or discouraged in a way.

It shuts people down and they're not going to produce actors getting that nervous, crew gets angry, resentful. They're not going to be. But if you're kind of courteous and respectful when you're making a film and when you're talking to people about their work, it's difficult sometimes to navigate that, but it's something that we stress with our readers sometimes.

often, you know, we just say, you know, you gotta be, you are talking to the reader when you're set, you know, writing up the notes and, and, um, no one, you know, it's just natural. It's just, no one wants to, people tend to shut down. They're not going to listen. They're not going to hear the notes if, if they're delivered in a way. So over time, I think, um,

You know, I'm just not, you know, it's not really, I guess, you know, there's probably some higher ethical reasons why you should be good to nice people, but it's also very practical. You know, it's also practical if you want...

to actually tell a better story, then it's good to collaborate and work with writers and work with your fellow collaborators in a way that fosters that spirit so that they're relaxed and they feel entitled in the work and excited. So, yeah.

Don't want to crush people's spirits, Dave. Crush their dreams. It stays with you for years. It's not a good look. I think anybody who likes to teach and has been teaching a while learns that it's a much more effective way to help a student. That's what you want to do when you're teaching. Woo!

So, you know, in your journey, Gordy, you know, through going to all these different, you know, places like, you know, like Sundance and going on to, you know, doing these webinars. And I mean, I'm sure you've met a ton of ton of people, you know. And so, you know, having done all that, have you met screenwriting teachers who are like that, who just give like these very like.

paint like these notes that are just like direct into the point and very maybe even yeah I've heard I've heard yeah I've heard of students going coming back and being like oh you know like or saying you know and I think some people just feel like that's I mean some people think that that and you know if if and I think some people maybe like that I don't know they like the oh I need to be I need someone to be tough on me you know and I guess that

But I've had a lot of good writers, talented people, people that are back have pretty good backbones. You know, people just fold, you know, when they do that. But yeah, absolutely. There's people that, because it's, you know what, it's easier to yell. I mean, it's easier to just freak out on people. You know what I mean? The work of being like a teacher is,

And the work of giving somebody effective notes that's struggling with their story, the work of being a respected director and effective director is kind of being able to react with grace and be able to be respectful. It's so easy to

to be a jerk, you know, I mean, to just be like, why, what were you, you know, like whatever it is. And, um, but you know, the thing is I'm a writer, you know, and I'm, and I'm a filmmaker myself. And I think that's, that's why blue cat, I think is flourished, um, the way it has and grown the way it has, um,

And I think that's what makes me an effective teacher as well, because I'm like, would I want to hear this? How would I want to hear notes? How would I want to hear this? Like, what would I what do I think would be fair?

And, you know, having that perspective really helps. And I think maybe some teachers were never really writers or they haven't been writing for a long time and maybe it helps them slip. But most teachers, you know, I think a lot of really effective teachers are

you know, approach it with a pretty even keel. I don't think you really hear a bunch of, you know, hear too much about lunatic people. I just don't think that, I don't think that screamers really, I mean, writing is such a personal action. You know, it's a very vulnerable thing. All creative, artistic people,

You know, it's like you're really opening yourself up. You know, your instrument is your personal life. And, you know, it can get a little hairy when somebody's coming after the writing because it feels like they're coming after you. So, yes. And you only know that, I think, if you experience the process of writing yourself and you know how personal it is. So, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, that's that thing, you know, how do you differentiate between the writing and yourself? You know, you hit the nail on the head right there because, you know, it's kind of like if you write a screenplay or a short story and you turn it in and the judges or the script consultant or whomever or, you know, the writer's group doesn't like it. I mean, you feel like I've been there before. I feel like it's an assault on me, you know, and you're like, how dare you? You know, and then you start getting agitated. Yeah.

Yeah, and that's a good professional. It's good exercise in professionalism to be like, you know, this is not about you. And sometimes things are very personal and it feels like, oh, God, you know, and somebody's like, I think that character is a certain way and you thought differently and that might reflect on your values. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

And it might reflect on your ethical, you know, core, you know, and that can it starts to feel like you're kind of getting it's kind of like, oh, you know, you you think I'm a creep or you think I'm angry or you think I'm like, you know, whatever. Or you think I condone this or, you know, whatever. And the professionals, I think, you know, I think it's good. We all fall into that. And I think it's always good for me to remember that.

You know, it's like, you know, this is a story. You know, you're creating something. You're going to create more. You know, you're going to have a body of work. It's not you. It's not your life. It's, you know, and everything is so personal, the reactions from people. I mean, people are so, get so wound up with feedback sometimes.

sometimes. And it's like, haven't you ever gone to a movie with like people that you love, like your family or your best friends or your spouses or your partners or whoever, and you walk out and one person goes, I hated that. And the other person goes, God, I loved it. You know, and no one goes, Oh my God, we need to move out. You know, or, you know, there's no, it's, there's no big fallout, you know, it's sort of like, okay,

Yeah, you like Star Wars? I didn't. Or whatever. Or you like Shape of Water? I didn't. Or something. And that's it. Then you just go home and get dinner and you just kind of go on. But when people have a reader or a writer's group or a manager pass or a producer never get back to you, it's like...

And it's like, oh, you know, it's so devastating. It's like, you know, they're just people and it's just another reaction. And sometimes you might have expectations about, you know, wanting a reaction from like, say, a contest or from a producer or from a colleague, you know,

you want that reaction to be, you know, the one you may have expectations, but that's, that's also something that we, you know, as professionals, we want to keep developing, you know, a healthy sense of expectations and keep things in check and know that it's not the end of the world. If something doesn't, cause you can all, as a writer writers always, you know, there's always another movie. There's always another great idea. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I get so worked up and then,

You know, and then, you know, I come across another thing. It's so incredible. And I go, and I'm so excited about the idea of writing it. And I go, you know, and it makes you free of everything else, you know, so lower your expectations and realize everything is, you know, everything's coming from a personal, their own personal place.

And just remember that, you know, how many times you've gone to the theater and walked out with divided reactions. And it's so perplexing sometimes, you know, like, what do you mean you didn't like that? You know, and it's like, no, I didn't. And it's like, OK, you know, and it's just that's what makes everything kind of fun. You know, that's what makes the storytelling, you know, interesting, I think.

Yeah, you know, it reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld where Mr. Peterman, he didn't like... He said he took Elaine to see the English patient and she hated it. And he actually fired her. And it...

And it's so funny because, you know, not only does that speak of character within Seinfeld, but it's also, I mean, you know, that's comedy because it's the ordinary. It's brought up to the extraordinary because it's so ludicrous that, that a boss would fire an employee because he didn't, she didn't like the movie. Right. And that, but that's how impassioned we are. That's how emotional we are about our decisions and our reactions. But as a writer, I,

you know, it's, it's like, yeah. And a lot of people get, get really hung up on, you know, and, and, you know, blue cat gives out feedback and, you know, and there's, there's going to always be somebody who's going to be like this person, you know, didn't, you know, I'm like, well, you know, that's, it's going to happen. You know, it's not a perfect process. You know, it's not math, right.

It's not two plus two equals four. It's just not. We're not doing that. And now when like some people watch Call Me By Your Name and have one reaction and other people, I talked to a guy last night who walked out. You know, he just thought it was too slow. And other people think it's a masterpiece. You know, so and both of everybody's right. I mean, you know, Love Lives was a movie I wrote. It came out a long time ago. It was reviewed.

And, you know, and people, you know, it came out in theater. So it was reviewed by the press. And, you know, I realized then it was like the people that just thought it wasn't even worthy of a short. They just thought it was crap. You know, I'd be like, oh, my God, you know. But then the people were like, oh, this is genius. This is genius.

And I realized it's like, they're both sort of wrong and right. You know what I mean? Like, I can't go to the genius people, people that think it was a mask. Well, you're right. That's a good review. You know what you're talking about? The person who doesn't like it. It's like, no, they're both right. You know, they're both like somebody who likes something really like, Oh my God, this is incredible.

they're as crazy as the person that says something's horrible. You know what I mean? They're just, it's just, you know, it's all emotional response and personal history. And, you know, it's, it's, but I mean, I hope, you know, if anything, it's like, I, I always, I'm glad. I think it, when people, when writers can like really look past that, cause it really frees you up. You know, you realize it's like, it keeps you going. And,

And I think it gets you back to focusing on developing a better story instead of just focusing on reactions and all that stuff. Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head too, Gordy, when you said about this whole idea of story. Because I think too many times when you – I mean there's 10,000 screenwriting books out there. And the problem is you start to read some of these and it's all about a formula. You know what I mean? It's the precise – and it is –

Like you said, it's not math, but some of those books, though, they treat it as such, where it's like on page this, on page that, this has to happen, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you start to get just lost in this. And that's why I think, I mean, you must see it a lot, where you're kind of like this feels like they're not really writing a story, but they're trying to solve like a math problem. Absolutely. I mean, you know, there was a really, there was a period of time where people were,

Save the Cat was sort of, you know, I mean, with all credit to Save the Cat and the principles that the really healthy story principles that it affirms and everything. And it was a period where it was like, you know, maybe 10 years ago where it was like everybody was like, you know, really ablaze with that and people were using it left and right. And

And some of the scripts were just incoherent because they were just, they weren't even, they had lost all sense. They weren't even connected to their own story intuitive sort of compass inside. And so they were like, well, this is what the character's supposed to do on this trip.

And it was like, but then when you'd read it, you'd be like, I don't even know what's going on, you know? And the emotional thing wasn't happening and everything else. So yeah, you kind of look for, you can, you know, the books are great. And if you get stuff that inspires you

incredible if you get something that makes sense it's great a teacher an analyst um a consultant you know it could be the guy some guy you meet at starbucks who says oh i want to read your script or some the barista you know anybody wants to you know i'll read it you know

And then they go, I just didn't think, I mean, I've gotten notes from everywhere. You know what I mean? And it just doesn't, there's no, there's no bad source of notes. It's just the ones that actually help you move forward and know that. But yeah, you have to strike a balance between what the, what formulas, what kind of, this is what, this is the third act, you know, whatever. And knowing that,

The only rule of storytelling is emotional investment and getting an audience to care. I mean, you know, I mean, good example, call me by your name. I mean, I don't know what,

formula that followed or like act structure or anything like that. I don't know. I don't know where a phantom thread, you know, you can't, I don't know what, I mean, I, I mean, I, I'd have to probably watch it again or a couple more times to see, but I'm sure that Paul Thomas Anderson did not, you know, was not even thinking about that. He was just telling an emotional story and,

creating characters that he thought an audience would be interested in and invested in emotionally. And that is what drives, that's what drives effective storytelling. That's what drives classic movies making. And that's what drives profit in the marketplace is emotion. I mean, Wonder Woman was Wonder Woman because people...

loved Wonder Woman and they were so gratified by her performance who she was we were able to connect with her it was like oh you know and it's you know and so this this happens whereas like you know the thing with Star Wars it's like there was some mixed reactions out there we can all kind of safely say and some people were like I am not and basically boiled down to

I am not feeling Luke Skywalker. I do not. I'm like, I've lost my connection with Luke Skywalker. That's really what happened. It's like, it's like they did something else with Luke and made some choices about the story. And that's what happened. You can't, I don't think anyone can deny that.

that there was an emotional breakdown with some of the audience because of who they knew Luke Skywalker to be. So anyway, so it's all emotional investment. And so as long as we can remember that when we're, um, when we're writing, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.

I mean, just make a balance between you can read stuff inspired, get you thinking about things, get you thinking about conflict and tone and things like this. It's good to think about these things and study them and look at other movies and how they function and everything else. But don't forget that eight-year-old child that knew how to tell a story.

You know what I mean? You can go to a 10-year-old and go, what happened after school today? And they'll tell you a story. They'll know what a beginning, middle, and end is. They know what the inciting incident is. They know what the payoff is. They know what the ending is. And they know what that is. It's in their bloodstream. It's in their DNA. And so we want to strike a balance between what we learn and what we already know, you know?

Yeah, you know, and somebody once told me about kids' storytellers that the main reason that they actually become such good storytellers is because they're not afraid to fail. And, you know, they're not really concerned about that. And they just sort of go in full force on that story. And it's not until you start going through your story

your young adult life or what have you, you start to go, oh my God, the peer pressure. Oh my God, what if I look, don't, you know, what if somebody thinks I'm an idiot? What if this isn't good? I suck. Then if this sucks, you know what I mean? Right. Right. There is definitely a, definitely an open, open feeling about what they're doing and everything else. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So and by the way, I know you mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson. You know, I actually saw your AMA on Reddit, Gordy. And I laughed when you when somebody asked, are you the Gordy that Paul Thomas Anderson thanked at the end of the master? And you just responded back with the the Heisenberg meme of you're damn right.

Yeah. I, you know, it was funny as it was, I remember that. I think I was, I had an intern in the office and he was like, no, let me get this. And he, and he, and I was like, okay, just put it up there. You know, he was, he thought that was funny or somebody was, somebody in our office was like, yeah, he kind of grabbed that meme and put that up there. Yeah. I was, I was, I looked at the master a little bit along the way, the script and, and, um,

You know, obviously, you know, Paul was very close to my brother and they were like best friends and like literally brothers in their own right, you know. And so we've been very close to Paul for 20, you know, over 20 years. I mean, I saw, you know, the Boogie Nights. I mean, my brother was telling me about...

I gave my brother Love Liza in the fall of 96, and that was when he was shooting Boogie Nights. And he was telling me about this movie that he was making about the porn industry. So I've known Paul. He's amazing. He really is our best actor.

He's really the best we have in America. He's like a Kubrick-level genius. The best is yet to come. Phantom Thread totally says that he's going to different places. He's going to make so many great movies. In the second half of his life, it's really exciting. I'm very honored. He's always been very...

Such a humble, he's always very respectful of me. And, you know, he's always been respectful of me. And he always, he likes my judgment. And he's just a great guy. You know, I mean, he's a wonderful man too. He's a good guy.

So, you know, as we were talking about, you know, directors and giving notes and stuff like that. So, you know, in your experiences and working with him, you know, does he sort of have that sort of same mentality where, you know, it's not so much of, hey, listen to me because I'm the director, but it's more of like he knows how to collaborate the director.

you know, the right way. Because I've had people on here who've worked with, like, Quentin Tarantino, and that's one of the things they say was his strengths was, was that, you know, he would get into this groove, and they always knew when he liked stuff because he would start, you know, laughing and stuff like that. And, you know, they knew his vibe. Does Paul Thomas Anderson... I've not been on set with Paul, so I can't really speak to him as a director and, like, what...

that is, but I mean, you know, so I just, all I can say is from my vantage point, you know, he obviously knows how to cast, he knows how to direct an ensemble of actors and, and bring them together in the scene. You know, he's very, very gifted. I mean, it's, he does so many things. Well, people just don't understand that he, you know, he's writing on a certain level that is,

highly original and authentic, emotionally authentic. And he delivers high conflict. He doesn't run from emotional issues.

emotional beats and high, highly intense emotional situations. You know, he knows how to cast. He has an incredible, he has a Shakespearean sense of comedy and how he balances comedy in his stories. So, I mean, you know, you're eliminated. I mean, just in what I just said, you're eliminating like,

several major directors that are in this country around the world that can't do all of those things. They do not do all of those things. They can't, they can't do all that. You go on. You're not even talking about, you know, where he puts the camera. You're not even talking, you're not even talking about how he employs score and sound. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's off the charts. So it's like, he has so much of that covered. He's literally like,

I mean, to me, I mean, I, you know, obviously, you know, I might buy it, you know, whatever. But the fact is, is that it's like, I mean, anyone who knows anything, I think probably would agree with me, but he is one of our, he is, he is the master. I mean, he is one of the greats, you know, and then by the time it's all done, I mean, he's,

because he's going to keep going he's a young man and he's going to keep going and he's he's got all his faculties and phantom thread was such a um such a step forward i thought in so many you know it's such a mature there was something so mature about the movie and it was a real real achievement and you know and obviously the academy you know agrees because they they nom not only nominated the movie best picture but also nominated him for directing and

And, and I think that that was well-deserved. They know it. They know that it was, it was, it was truly, it was truly an achievement and really, really wonderful to see. So.

You know, Gordy, that's actually one of the movies I want to see this year. I haven't actually been... Either it wasn't playing at the time I went, or I haven't been able to sort of schedule time to go see it. It just came out. I mean, it just came out. I mean, it just came out. I mean, in L.A., it's been out since the end of the year, end of 2017, but it just was released, I think, last weekend a lot of places. So a lot of people...

have not caught up to that one yet. So, you know, but so, yeah. So, but everyone will get a chance to take it in, but I encourage every, all writers to, to look at that, you know, to, to go, to go to that movie and, and think about what, what is successful and what is, what is effective about the story telling in the movie and, and, and take it in. And I think you'll, you know, it's a good, it's a really great movie for screenwriters.

You know, that was my mistake, Woody. I actually thought it came out like the end of November, beginning of December last year. No, it didn't. Yeah. No, I was just going to say, sometimes I get like release dates all mixed up, you know? Yeah, yeah. But you made a good point. I want to actually ask about is, you know, when you're a screenwriter, you know, some of the ideas of becoming a better screenwriter are, you know, you have to read a lot of screenplays and obviously you have to go to different movies. Right.

Do you feel that there's ever an advantage of one over the other? Because I one time went to a screenwriting seminar and the person said you can't judge a... You can't watch a movie and try to dissect it that way because you don't know what the script even looked like. Actors could be improvising. This scene could blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to ask you, Gordy, what do you think of that advice? Well, I mean, the fact is that...

you know that sounds i mean it sounds like uh a fairly reasonable point

but the fact that this screenplay is is it's it's part of making the film and i think that ultimately because there's a lot of scripts that you know so you're so you can't judge the script well if the script you know it doesn't matter in the end we need our audience we're not writing scripts you know we're right we're trying to make a movie you know so

Yeah. So, I mean, I think ultimately it's it's yeah, that sounds like, OK, well, you can't judge the movie based off of this. Are you saying you can't judge the screenplay based off of the movie that we've just seen? Yeah, that that's what they were saying was because. OK, I think generally I think generally, I mean, I think I'm sure there's exceptions where people.

you know, drop the ball or the money doesn't happen or there's bad performances or, you know, whatever. There's probably a number of reasons. But I think generally... We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show.

you know, strong writing, you know, tends to reflect in a strong movie. It's, it's very difficult to make a great movie from a mediocre script. It just, you know, it's just difficult. They are very much correlated. Uh, I don't think there's a lot of variance there. And, um,

Yeah. So interesting question. Oh, I've never heard that. Yeah. That's why I always like going in and, you know, just interviewing people like you, Gordy, just, you know, people out there in the field. And, you know, that's why I want to do this podcast, because I get to hear all these different different takes on different things. You know what I mean? And you get to share knowledge, because I think that's what technology has done. I mean, honestly, you know, once I started, it's kind of I kind of had my aha moment, you know, with all this technology.

Right.

But, and of course we've seen with movies, you know, now it's, you know, you put them on Netflix, Hulu, all that good stuff. And then you can, you know, that also is distribution. But I wanted to get back to you, Gordy, just talking about, you know, your career and everything.

You know, you've actually, you know, directed a few movies. You've written a few movies. So I actually wanted to ask you about some of those and some of your experiences actually making those. So, you know, your your first movie, as you as you mentioned earlier, was Love, Liza. So, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, where was the impetus for writing that screenplay and how did you go about being able to direct that movie?

I didn't direct it. Todd directed it. Yeah, I wrote it. And I was a cab driver in Chicago. And I saw somebody near a gas pump. And I was like, I was like, is that person sniffing the gas? And I didn't really see them sniffing it. But I was like,

And I was in my cab and I wrote that down in an index card. I used to have all these blank index cards with me. I wonder where those are. I like, I wish I could find them. I wonder where they ended up. But I, I, I, you know, I had like, yeah, I've got like, uh, to find some of that stuff. Anyways. Um, yeah, I wrote down a man starts huffing gas and, and, you know, and then that was the germ of it where I was like, well, why would he start doing that? And it's just like, well, what if his wife committed suicide? Um,

And then I started to write that. And then he finds a note. And I found that. I didn't plan on that. He finds the note and the note ended up driving the movie. But that's where Love Lies It came from.

So, you know, sometimes when I find pieces of material that I've like written on an index card or back of a receipt or something, I'll look at it, Gordy, and I go, what the hell was I trying to say? Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen to me too much anymore. But sometimes, yeah, I'm like, I'll look back on something. I'll write down a little idea file. Usually I get I get the idea and I put it on like a little document and I just.

you know, I have so many of them and, and, but I usually, I know myself that I better explain it so that I can look back on it and know exactly what it is. Cause if I just write down macaroni and cheese, it's like, I'm like, what the hell was that idea? You know, you gotta like, what's like, uh, what was that? It's like,

So, yeah, but I think we've all had that experience of looking back at something we jotted down and been like, OK, I guess that one's gone. You know, I've gotten into the habit of using my phone now. I use I use like Evernote to to take down. Oh, yeah, because it helps you organize things. And also you're not like carrying around tons of sheets of paper.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's electronic. You know, that's the technology that we have now is that, yeah, you don't really have index cards anymore. You just, I just usually just write an email to myself, send it to myself. And then it ends up on my little movie, uh, folder idea list for the year. And then, uh,

I'm backing it up every couple days the whole computer so I have a great jury have everything that's all it's all different from Back of the days 20 years ago when I came up with the idea for love Liza And I find it interesting to Gordy you were you were a cab driver in Chicago and you were just you know I guess in between fares you were just you know on index cards You were just sort of outlining or brainstorming ideas that you could put into a screenplay. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely

I mean, that's the, I mean, you know, I just, that was what I was doing. And I, you know, to this day, it's like, you know, I mean, you know, it's like anywhere an idea will come up, but at that time, you know, that's what, that's what my day job was. It was a, it's a whole nother experience, you know, and I drove a cab in Chicago for three and a half years and, and, um,

And that was, yeah, I can still remember exactly the gas station that that happened in. And it was just one of the random things. It was like, and I just decided to go with it, you know. It was an idea. And, you know, I just remember that it's like sometimes you sit there and go, okay, what idea should I work on? And, you know, any idea that you pick, you're going to make great, right?

You know what I mean? So it's like, it's like, I'm like, don't be so worried about whether or not this is the right idea. Cause you're going to work on it and it's going to be awesome. You know what I mean? So you'll make everyone, everything work. And so it's like, it's such a, and I forget that. Cause I'll, I'll be like, you know, like, I don't know. And it's like, even cause if I was forced to write my worst idea, I,

I would make it great. You know what I mean? I would just be like, the one I'd be like, okay, I got to write on that. And then I would lean into it and I would start to, you know, my imagination would kick in and I'd start to come up with ideas. You know, Stephen Pressfield once said that you could, if you can get like a sentence out, you can draw a whole novel just from that one sentence. You can pull just from that one sentence. And he said, oh, I'm sorry, Gordy.

Go ahead. No, no, I'm sorry. I was just going to say that he actually wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance just from that one sentence. He had like this moment where he kind of jotted down the sentence and then he just pulled a whole novel from that.

Right. I mean, you know, and that's it's, you know, it's usually like one little idea, a few little words you jot down and then it's like the idea is there and and and then you're off to the races. And but, you know, I've done that in classes, too, where it's like I have people, you know, brainstorm like 10 ideas for scenes. And then I ask them, pick the worst ideas.

idea out of all the ones and that's the one I have them write on and to show them that basically anything you can make anything work you know you do not have to it does not have to be the best idea it does not have to be I mean that's really why I afford any kind of writing challenges

any kind of 48 hour film thought that's where that comes from. It's because it, for it, it's what people can given, given restrictions, you know, they can still have fun and be creative and everything else.

Yeah. And again, I think it's just when you're having fun, because I think that I think that's a lot of things that people forget. I mean, I've been there, too, Gordy, where I'm like, you know, I completely forget this is supposed to be fun. And it becomes like so definitely serious. And you start kind of doubting yourself along the way. And then it becomes a little more, a little more. And then by the end, you're like, this whole thing sucks. I got to get rid of this whole screenplay. I got to start all over again. And then, you know, it becomes a habit that you have to break. Yeah.

Well, every, every screenplay, you know, it's like, you know, any kind of master screenwriter or filmmaker, you know, will tell you it's like anything you're working on, you're going to get to a wall. You're going to get to a place where you're like, this is awful. And I'm bored as hell. And I want to start something else. And there's, this has so many problems and I don't know how to solve them. And I'm, and this is like taking forever. You know, I mean, it's true despair. And,

And the thing is, now I know that like when I get to that place, I'm like, okay, I'm making that way. Like, I know it's like, okay, I'm actually halfway through, you know, like, because you are always going to hit that spot. And it's like, and you are, you never get, oh man, this is like a, this is so awesome. You know, it's never like that.

you always get to a place where like, I hate every page. I'm like all this stuff. I'm sick of reading this thing. I'm like, you have that feeling. And it's like in that. And when you have that feeling, it's like, oh, well, you're getting there. You're almost, you're probably rounding second.

Just keep going and then suddenly it will come back and you'll fall in love with it again and you'll come up with new ideas and you'll solve these problems and you'll have another draft and then you'll start and then you'll be like, okay, and you'll own it all over again and then you'll really have something special. But we have to fight through the boredom, the despair, the

you know, just the, just the loathing of the script, you know, at times it comes up where you're just like, Oh God, like, I'm so sick of looking at this and thinking about it. I think it sucks or whatever. And, uh, you know, you're like four drafts in, you know, uh,

Yeah, just even in the outlining stages, sometimes you're like, oh my God, what the hell was I thinking? And one of the things that I've learned too over the years is just like little tips or so to speak, or if you want to call them a hack, that's a popular word now, Gordie Hack. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

So everything's a hack. So one thing I've learned is to start an argument. Obviously, that's where conflict comes from, right? I want A, you want A, and we each have a different way of how we're going to get it. You know what I mean? And then we both need this thing, and that's where this conflict comes from, is that you want something and you can't get it. I want something and I can't get it. So if you're starting an argument and...

that's why I make little notes when I'm going back through stuff and just saying to myself, this is, you know, maybe this is something that I can do better. And then, you know, like Stephen King once said, if you take a draft of something, put it in your drawer for two weeks or whatever, go back to it, and that's when you can look at it again with fresh eyes. Yeah, it's great how time changes things and you can look at stuff and be like, oh, yeah, you know, and you could definitely, you know, there's a lot of that stuff. But, yeah, that's great advice.

So, you know, Gordy, as you took Love, Liza and you were able to write a full screenplay, you know, how did you go about, you know, just sort of even pitching it and, you know, getting it into the right hands to get it produced?

Um, well, you know, it was a long process, but you know, my brother read it and like I said, he had not started shooting boogie nights yet. So he wasn't a movie star or anything like that. He just young and, um, we read it and he loved it, you know, and I didn't, wasn't giving it to him to be like, Hey, you want to do this? But he wanted to play the guy. And, um,

that's what it is. So we attached, he was attached. We got a director, we got Todd Elizo, and then we started to a couple of producers. And then we started to talk to people that could add access to money and find, you know, producers that, you know, could raise, raise actually the money to make the movie. And so it took a, you know, it didn't take that long, maybe four years from, from,

from like the whole period of like starting to think about it and people looking at it you know and then and then um then we found some folks and um and made it you know and got was able to get kathy bates involved and um and that was how we we got the money it was very low budget um at the time and um

And then, you know, it got into Sundance, you know, people, um, responded at Sundance to it and it got to Sundance and, um, and then it was bought by Sony classics. Um, and they, uh, distributed it. So, um,

Yeah, so that was that sort of the journey. And I think it's I mean, somebody told me it's on HBO right now. So I think if you have HBO, you'll be able to watch it. And obviously it's on Amazon for rental. But it's but Sony ended up Sony Classics, the same guys that were involved with Love Lies are, you know, are still running it.

Sony Classics, you know, and Call Me By Your Name is a Sony Classics acquisition that they picked up before Sundance. And, yeah. So, you know, Gordy, you mentioned Sundance and you mentioned, you know, Call Me By Your Name and also, you know, with Love Liza. Yeah.

I saw an article, and I don't know if you saw this yet, in the LA Times that says the spec script is dead. And what they mean is that Hollywood only wants to make the big budget blockbuster movies based on superheroes and things like that or remakes of classic movies and stuff like that. And that the spec scripts now all go to Sundance. So if you want to make an original movie...

You know, the place to debut it or show it and get it bought, et cetera, is Sundance. You know, I don't know if you read that article, but but do you do you agree with that in today's current market for screenwriters that, you know, Sundance is where, you know, independent movies really go?

Well, I mean, Sundance is an incredible market. I mean, you get into Sundance, I mean, all eyeballs are there for acquisitions and you can, you know, pick up a movie that can do considerable performance at the box office and also could win Academy Awards. So, you know, obviously it's a great launch pad. Now, you know, I mean, look,

If you write a great screenplay, you're going to be able to do a lot of things, and that's never going to change. The idea of what was happening in the 90s, the markets changed. But the 90s were also different from the 40s.

You know what I mean? So it's not like some evil thing has happened. It's just the market changed. Storytellers can go different places.

But you obviously can, you know, if you write something special, you know, you might be able to get, you know, involved in television and television episodic is obviously sort of the, there's another golden age right now in terms of, you know, storytelling and television. But, you know, but then you can also, you know, write a get out or write a lady bird. Obviously these people have access and everything and there's certain, you

you know, opportunities that might have been afforded, Greta Gerwig or whatever. But the fact is, is that, you know, three billboards, you know, these are all movies that are doing, doing well, they're going to do well. No one who is involved with making them is on, is like, wow, I wish I hadn't been involved at Get Out. I mean, it's like no way. And Get Out was, you know, low, lower budget, did not have any kind of like a Avengers type of budget.

And it was, but it all goes back to the writing, you know? And it, you know, so just, you know, people find, you know, writers and people want to find like, oh, well, spec market or, you know, make some, you know, ideas about. And the bottom line is it's ultimately an excuse not to deal with

like to not to deal with the truth. The truth is, is that we have to do what we were talking about earlier. We have to fight through the boredom, the despair, keep working on our drafts and make them so good that it blows people away.

I mean, I got my short got into Sundance two years ago and got me a job, like a feature writing job shortly thereafter. And it was all because of the work that I put into the short. And I made the short as best I knew. I just made it.

best I could. And, you know, and it worked, you know, it got into Sundance and people saw it and it landed, you know, it led to a really nice, you know, it helped, it can help my career and it moved everything forward. And, you know, somebody would be like, Oh, well, how, you know, it didn't follow any kind of formula or anything else. It,

in terms of I just decided to make, you know, I was like, I want to make the short to kind of show people I can direct. And it ended up doing things that I did not anticipate or expect. But the thing that I did plan on doing was making it as best I could. And so everybody, and I know people are like, well, whatever, you know, yeah, sure. Right. Work really hard on your screenplays. That's really great advice. Well, you know what? That's what happened.

I mean, it's like, where do you think get out any of these movies, anything that's like comes out of nowhere, any, you know, anything that like, it's like interesting. Where do you think it comes from? It comes from people like picking up, you know, opening it up, getting going with our movie, working really hard on it, continuing to take notes, continuing to push it forward. That's that stuff. That's never, that's, that has not changed.

You know, and yeah, the idea, maybe it's a good thing that like, oh, you can't just put together a high concept and the movie, you know, the studios are so scared somebody else is going to get it. So they buy something and it's like sort of half baked and it's not even that great. And then you don't even get to really work on it after they bought it. I mean, you know, maybe that's not really good.

what we want. You know, maybe we want a system that is like, that is exactly like that. It's like, write a big sick, write, write, write something like three billboards, come up with something created, create a dramatic story, write a really funny comedy, write a really scary horror movie and, and just make it the best you can.

You know, and I think the market's going to find you anyways. And it might be better than if they bought your high concept, you know, thing 15 years ago or 20 years ago and did that, you know. Yeah. And the movie you took, The Sundance, was Dog Bowl, correct? Yeah. Yeah. That was a short I had a couple of years ago that I that I had there.

You know, that's also, that's on Amazon prime. So if anybody, you know, wants to see it, it's, it's on Amazon prime. So if you have Amazon prime, you can watch it for free. And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes as well. So yeah, yeah. Just, you know, so if you're like, you're like, I want to see if this guy knows what he's talking about. I would see his crappy short. I'm going to go, I'm going to go check out his short, see if it's good, man. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.

I want to check on one of you, Gordie Hoffman. Yeah, yeah, you got to check up. You got to watch Dog Bowl. And see, like, come on, man, check it out. It's nothing like, you know, you go and check somebody's movie, and you're like, oh, man, really? But I think people are like, Dog Bowl's good. It's got some nice, great actor. I mean, the star is excellent, and I think people enjoy it.

Yeah, you know, I remember, you know, I saw you were crowdfunding for that, and I just wanted to ask Gordy, you know, really quickly, you know, what were your experiences crowdfunding that movie? Was crowdfunding what you thought it would be, or was it a little harder, a little easier? Oh, man, it's like, I mean, for somebody with low self-esteem, I mean, it is brutal. You got to, like, you know what I mean? You got to ask people for stuff. It's like, ugh, I mean, it really... But you know what? It was like, I was, you know, I...

I stumbled onto a lot of things that you do well with. I mean, it's a whole other podcast, but I found my way through it, and I had a lot of people that wanted to help me. So I had a successful run, and then I hadn't finished the script yet. And I raised all this money, and I was like, oh, no, now this has to be good. And talk about pressure. I was like, whoa.

But then I kept... It was great. I really made you committed to making a great movie. It was an excellent way to fund the movie. It worked. Think about all the Kickstarter campaigns or crowdfunding campaigns you've been involved with. And fortunately for my backers...

you know, they backed a film that went to Sundance, you know? So they were like, they were like, wow, this is awesome. And then it went, and then it went, you know, played all over the country. And, you know, so people were able to, a lot of people that backed it were able to see it in a theater, like at a festival. And, and I was at a lot of those festivals. So it was really,

it was super fun. And, and, um, but yeah, the Kickstarter was a lot of work. I mean, you know, it's again, it's a whole nother podcast, but you know, there's a lot, there's a few, few tips for that. But, um, if you ever want to do a Kickstarter, uh, like, like, cause I did two campaigns with dog ball one, the beginning one at the end. And, um, yeah, I've got a raft of experience about that. And I always, uh,

Always want to share that because I think there's a lot of things that people do and they can avoid. And I think it's a great way to find the money to make a short film and show people that you can write and show people you can direct. And, you know, I think it's Kickstarter is fantastic. But there are some things that I think people get bored.

You know, and it usually goes, you know, in many ways it goes back to, you know, something that bogs writers down, bogs filmmakers down is a lack of patience. I think people are impatient to launch their campaign. They're impatient to shoot. So they don't want to like,

do another draft. They don't want to write another movie. They want to get to shooting. And I think with Kickstarter, it's like, you just kind of want to launch it. You know, you're like, I want to, okay, we're ready. You know? And then you launch it and you know, you don't really have your ducks in a row. You're not really ready. And then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, you know, like I, I'm like, no one is, no one, I don't really, I'm not really getting the money I thought I was going to get, you know? And I think it goes back to having some patience and, um,

you know, preparing and doing the right work and getting it all ready and doing exactly what you would do if you were, you know, wanting to shoot a script, you know, just taking the time to do it.

Yeah, you know, I crowdfunded way back when in like 2010 and then I did it again in 2011. And, you know, it was explaining to people what crowdfunding was at that time because, you know, nowadays everybody has a Kickstarter, it seems. I think some people get a little burned out. Right. But, I mean, when you're actually doing it, Gordy, I mean, I hear you. I was right there with you because it feels, you know, you're like, my God, is this thing even going to be possible? You know, are people, you know, because everyone will tell you,

What I usually do is, and this is really quick because I don't want to bring out of time. I call it the 1% rule. And so if you ask 100 people to donate to your crowdfunding campaign, 99... Everyone's going to tell you yes, but 99 won't do it. And that one person will actually go through with it and give you some money. So if you use that 1% rule...

that's the multiplication that you're going to have to do to make sure that you have your movie. So your multiplication and your division. And then you figure you have to tell that many people. So if you know that you're going to need maybe, I don't know, $20,000, you have to kind of...

can figure out how many people you're going to have to talk to in order to get that done. Because everyone does what's called Chinese math. And they're like, well, if I had 20,000 people each give me a dollar, I'd have them all the money or I only need one person to give me $20,000. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like using all that to your advantage. You have to figure out, okay, these are where I could go. These are the family. These are the friends. They can give me 30%. It's stuff like that that

you've learned as you go about doing all this stuff. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's a lot of stuff going on with it, but I think it...

I mean, it boils down to content, how you present, you know, your idea. And I think there's a lot of pitfalls with that. I think people think, oh, I should make a four-minute video. No one in the world has ever watched a four-minute video. No one watches four-minute videos ever. It's like, you know, and it's like, let me explain it. Let me bring everybody in. Let's talk for seven minutes about what the movie is going to be about. No one will want to.

Nobody wants to watch that. You know, it's like, so there's these things that you sort of realize it's like, you know, make a 45 second video, you know, and, and like write a little bit about it. People want to read it. They're going to find it, but basically just give them a little video reminder, make sure you have a ton of rewards, make sure you have a lot of different ways for people to get in. If you only have one $25 award and then the next one, $75, you're going to be in trouble, you know, but if you have five different $25 awards, you're,

you know, some people don't want DVDs, you know, they don't want a poster, you know? And it's like, if the only thing at that money level is a poster, then they're like, I don't want a poster, you know? But if you're like, Oh, you know, I won't give you anything at $25. You get people signed up for that because they don't want anything mailed to them. No, I mean, it's like, it's amazing. I mean, all these things that I sort of learned while I was doing it. Yeah. It's, um,

It's all the things, you know, speaking of the video really quickly, I know we were almost out of time, but really, but I once had a friend of mine, his crowdfunding campaign was not going anywhere.

And he said, could you, you know, he goes, Dave, I know you've done this before. Would you mind looking at this for me? And I looked at it and Gordy, he had like a nine or ten minute trailer, so to speak. And it was him talking on the couch. I said, my God, I said, what could you possibly, there was no like other shots. There was no like flashbacks.

footage of the movie or even concept art or the storyboard or nothing, even the screenplay for God's sakes. It was literally him on a couch talking for like 10 minutes. And I said, dude, I know you and I don't want to donate money to this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's really, I mean, I learned that like right when I was doing it, they, I mean, somebody, I was reading a blog and somebody was like, we, we watched, we watched,

videos for six months. Like we just studied Kickstarter campaigns for six months. And I was like, wow, okay. And they were like, and we ended up making a movie. We ended, our video ended up being like,

two minutes or a minute and a half or something like that. And they said, and we should have made it shorter. And I was like, when I heard that, I was like, whoa. And so my, you know, my video is 70 seconds, I think it's like a minute. And I made it like a deconstruct. I did like this. I just came up with a quick concept. I went out and shot it. And it was, it was a little bit slapped together, but it was like, I just, I was,

I was like, no, I'm going to sort of do the anti Kickstarter video and not really, it was different, but people love the video, you know? And, and it was like, it was, people really responded to the video because it just reminded people like, Oh, Gordy's talented. It's funny or whatever. You know, they just had enough. And then, you know, so, and then I just, I, and I also believe I had a lot of rewards. I had creative rewards. They were funny to read.

And I had a ton of different ones, you know, not so many that people couldn't make a decision, but I just had a lot of, a lot of ways for people to participate. And I also just remember that it's like, just remember, not everybody wants a DVD, right?

And if you apply that principle to every war that you give, then you're going to come up with alternatives. And you'll be surprised that people will actually, they'll take the other thing and you'll be like, oh, they don't even want a DVD or they don't even want a download or, you know, they just want to this, you know, they want to actually have that or whatever. And, but yeah, the videos are,

You know, I don't think I've ever watched a video. I mean, anything that's over, like literally and everyone you go on, they're always like four minutes long. It's like, are you kidding me? I mean, no one watches. Nobody, nobody watches that. Not even, you know, not that anyone related to them. Nobody, nobody watches. You know, it's just too long, man. It's too long, dude. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Okay, come on, man. The best crowdfunding video I've ever seen, Gordy, this guy actually pretended he was kidnapped.

and the the film that he was actually not good and and his guys were like well you know you need this money and he would goes well I'll get it like who's gonna give you this money he's a I'll go to crowd I got a Kickstarter and our indiegogo he goes I'll ask for money on that news we go really you can do that me that was the pitch and it was actually tied into the movie as well because it was about a kidnapping so was actually pretty cure creative and it was the the body by Kenny G on

Not to Musician, by the way. But it was another Kenny G. But I'll link to that. Everyone in the show knows. But it was actually a really, really good crowdfunding campaign. And...

He ended up making the movie. But, you know, Gordy, I know we're running out of time. Just in closing, Gordy, I just want to talk about Blue Cat again. I know Blue Cat, it's open for submissions right now for the 2018 season. So if you could, you know, just in the few minutes we have left, could you just, you know, give us a little more information about Blue Cat? Sure.

Well, everybody should know that we have really great readers and we provide written analysis on every script that enters. So if you enter BlueCat, you will get notes back on your script. Google, read your entire script and you will get notes back. So that's, that's a lot of people still don't know about that, but BlueCat has been doing that for, you know, over 15 years now, but that's, that's, that's one of our traditions. And we do that as a part of the entry fee.

We accept features, shorts, pilots, both hour and half hour. And we are also accepting short films this year. The first time we've ever done that. So we're going to have a screening next June of the top short films that we receive. The deadline is February 20th. And the next...

I'm not sure when you're airing this, but February 20th is the, is the next, um, is the final deadline. And, you know, you can Google us and sure you guys will have the links for that. But, um, yeah, I mean, and if you're ready to submit, you'd like to get some notes. Blue cat's great for that. If you've got, if you're really, really excited about your script, please send it to us.

if you're still like knowing you needed to work on it, then work on it, send it to Nichols or Austin later on in the year. And you can, you can get back to us in the future, but, um, you know, just use blue cat, use screenplay contests to, you know, to help you and encourage you, um, to develop yourself. And, and only when that happens, you know, should you be using screenplay contests? Um, but yeah, we're really excited. We, you know, we have a great, um,

such a fantastic group of readers so i'm very proud of them and and and everyone really loves our feedback so you know um looking looking forward to meeting the next winner and um you know the next winners and uh and yeah so i'm looking forward to getting your scripts yeah and uh

Like I said, I've entered Blue Cap before, and I really like the feedback that I got. And like I said, Gordy, you're somebody I've wanted to have on here before because you have the right attitude, the personality to run a screw-in competition. You're not only the founder, but you're also like this brand ambassador for it, and you have that right attitude for it, man.

And, you know, that's why it's so cool having you on, Cordy. Because in every interview, you know what I mean? It's like you're the type of guy like nothing bothers you. You know what I mean? You're just like you just go with the flow.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that, man. I, you know, hopefully I can remember that sometimes when I'm in traffic out in Los Angeles, but yeah, I, I, I look forward to being back on again, man. It was a great talk. I could, we could probably keep going. I mean, so if you ever want me back on, I'd love to talk about anything you want to get into. There's a lot of stuff in there. Just a great interview and love having, love being on.

Oh, and I'd love to have you back on Gordie. And before we sort of cut this off, where can people find you out online?

Well, you can find me. It'd be Google. You can find my, probably my Instagram account and my, you know, I don't really tweet a lot, but I do have a Twitter account and you know, you can reach out to me through blue cat. It's pretty easy to find blue cat and you can reach out to me there and stuff. And I'm also, you know, one of the things that we do where there's a lot of interaction is we have something called the blue cat writers group and that's on Facebook and

And it's a closed group, but pretty much anyone who wants to join just gets approved. And we always have weekly discussion questions. And, you know, there's a lot of interaction and it's very positive and it's not overwhelming and there's not a lot of extra stuff in there. It's really, you know, it's really about the craft of writing and sort of give and take around that. So that's another place that people can find me.

And I'll make sure everyone to link to all of Gordy's social media links in the show notes. But Gordy Hoffman, man, it has been a blast talking to you. And I definitely would like to have you back on because, you know, like we were just saying, you know, we could talk for a whole other hour or two. Right. Well, looking forward to it, Dave. Thank you.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 791. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.