IFH 796: No Film School, No Problem: Gary King's Journey of Grit and Creativity
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 796. Cinema should make you forget you're sitting in a theater. Roman Polanski.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

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It's my pleasure, Gary, because you are a person who I've wanted to have on here for a while. You see, I'm already messing up, Gary. You see that? I've had to... I wanted to have you on here for a while. And I know I say that a lot. But honestly, you and I have...

You know, talked briefly before via Facebook and Twitter, and then there was like a gap and then we were talking briefly again. So, you know, you're just a person who I've met years ago who I now get to have in this medium and it's so good to actually reconnect and and, you know, do something like this. I think it's just so cool. You know what I mean?

Yeah, man. I appreciate, again, you inviting me because Twitter years ago was actually a great place to network and meet people, actually physically meet people after you connect online. And it's changed a little bit into more of like a news feed.

So I appreciate the fact that you would follow up. You did keep in touch because I think we did meet years ago when it kind of first started. And and I've just seen you blow up. And I have to kind of do a little side note here and say you your voice and your style reminds me of like an 80s DJ back when I was like commuting to school. I'm kind of old, you know. So, you know, there was these like shock jock DJs. Not that you don't.

do a lot of cussing and, you know, all these weird kind of antics and stuff. But you have that voice that really draws you in and stuff. And so, you know, I think this is a really cool thing that you're doing. Gary, that is a huge compliment because I love the 80s. It was the best era of all time. And in the course of all human history, the 80s is still the best time to ever be alive. And I appreciate that so much. Now my ego is going to be out of control now, Gary. It is. It is. It'd be like,

Just to feed you one more time, you would be one of the guys in rotation at WKRP. I'd be like, hey, this is Dave at WKRP. And I'd have a horn or something. Exactly. And you're like, man, this guy, either you think he's brilliant or your dad would be driving and be like, what the hell is this clown doing on the radio? Exactly, man, exactly. So Gary, you and I, again, because we met a few years ago, but you and I actually have a same thing.

Sorry, a similar trajectory, a similar career path, because you actually started out in IT and development and stuff like that. And then you moved to New York to become a filmmaker. And I want to ask about that just to sort of start us at the beginning. So you, I assume, went to college for maybe computer science or something similar. So at what point were you drawn to like the IT work? I mean, were you always a big IT guy growing up?

Actually, it was HR and not IT because I'm not really technical. I actually suck at that kind of stuff. My brother was the engineer of the family and I went and fell into psychology for a while and got a degree in psychology and did human resources for five years. And it just wasn't a creative world. You know, like HR is all about rules and regulations, hiring and firing. And it's just kind of a very depressing realm that you live in. And after five years, you

There was kind of some layoffs going around where it made me kind of wake up from what I was doing, what I really wanted to do. And I was very lucky having my wife answer to me when I told her I wanted to make films for a living instead of like, what the hell are you talking about? Or, you know, it was nothing like that. She just said to me, OK, so let's figure out how we're going to get you there. I mean, it was like the perfect response. And this was like mid 2000s.

And yeah, so we've been going at it for a long time. And every film that I do just gets me closer to the goal, but I'm definitely not even close to where I want to be. But it was definitely something where

I had a love for it growing up because my parents showed me all these types of movies from different genres and different eras when I was a kid. And that stuck with me the whole time, even when I went to study psychology. I didn't realize there was film school. I didn't realize people made films for a living. And that was part of the issue. That's why I didn't go to film school. I studied something else. But thankfully, as you know, nowadays, you don't actually have to go to film school. You actually have to just go make films. And that's part of the process of learning.

Yeah, because, you know, everyone has a camera nowadays and even making practice films. And, you know, that's something that has been talked about in this podcast through a myriad of guests is just that even if you don't have access to maybe like a red package or like a Sony was the Airflex package.

You know, even if you take your phone and do it like Mark Duplass says and just make a movie in your backyard for a hundred bucks or whatever, it's all training to build you to make you get better so you can do other things, to do more things, to do. Now, instead of a hundred dollar budget, you got a two hundred dollar budget and then you just keep moving forward.

Exactly, man. Exactly. There's nothing more educational than going and like writing something, trying to translate it from the page to the screen by working with your crew, working with actors, trying to produce the damn thing, you know, and then you're trying to edit the footage to make it seem like, you know.

you had some type of, you know, idea that was, that made sense at the time. I, there's like, I'm paraphrasing Woody Allen when he says something like, I have this perfect film idea in my head and then I slowly mess it up as I write it and direct it and, you know, all that stuff. And when it comes out, so it's such a learning lesson to do every film I'm still learning. And the funny thing is, you know, all my films, the feature films I've done are out there and it's basically my film school. They're almost like student films if you think about it.

You know, so you were talking about Woody Allen and that's also a guy who, you know, some of the things that he talks about and some of the pointed things that he says are just like, oh, that's exactly what my problem is, you know? Yeah. That's what I was doing. Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, just to take a step back, you know, I want to talk about just

In your background, you mentioned HR and see, this is me, Gary. When I see Silicon Valley, I'm immediately like, OK, IT guy coding, you know, something with computer science. But so you worked in the corporate world and that that's where I was, you know, about what, a year ago or so. I worked at a college.

And it was just like you realize you don't want to do it anymore. It's such a grind. So you moved out to New York to become a filmmaker. I mean, did you I mean, just to sort of to dig a little deeper into that, did you have a plan that this was going to be it? And you have a day that you set and said, listen, I'm not going to work this job anymore beyond this day. And I'm just going to go to New York and become a filmmaker. Or did you sort of just do it on a whim?

It was a loose plan. It was definitely, my wife had friends and family out in New York. So we were living in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, and we said, okay, New York or LA are probably the two most prominent places where you can get stuff done and network and all that stuff. And she's from upstate New York. So a lot of her friends actually moved down into the city and

She worked for the hospitality industry, so she put out feelers to both New York and LA. And I just said, okay, so wherever you land your job, that's fate telling us that's where we need to go. And those are the people I'm supposed to meet because I had no connections. And I just figured I was just going to let fate play a hand in who I'm going to work with and what kind of stories I'm going to tell, what kind of locations I'm going to use. And it ended up being New York. And it was an amazing experience.

Again, the part of the plan was my wife was going to have the stable job while I was just starting fresh. We did cash out my 401K, which wasn't much after good old Uncle Sam took taxes away. But we used that to make my first feature film. I saved up a little bit more. And when we moved out there, I made contacts by doing some web commercials and doing some other smaller projects first to build up a network of people.

That saw my passion, saw what I was trying to do, knew there wasn't much money in it. But because of the story I've written and the things that I wanted to do, they were in it for a little pay, knowing that we were going to try to make something that was going to get a lot of exposure for them. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

So when you made that first film, Gary, did you write for the budget? No. Hey, listen, I can't make a huge action film. You know what I mean? I can't make a $4 million action film or something like that. So did you write knowing this has to be a small, compacted film? Small, not obviously, you know, it's professional and everything. I just meant like small as in scope, you know, again, because we're not trying to make a $4 million action film. Right.

Yeah. So yes and no, because my my first feature film was called New York Lately. And at the time, I was really inspired by Robert Altman and P.T. Anderson and very kaleidoscope of characters, you know, following multiple storylines like shortcuts and boogie nights.

The thing was I also picked that type of project because I was asking at the time actors to work for no money. It would just be the wonderful meals, copy and credit. So what I wanted to do was have a lot of characters so that each actor was only committing three to four days of filming. It would still be a feature film, but the majority of actors were only committing three to five days of their time and not like –

16, 20, 25 days of no pay because I'd really feel like shit if I was doing that. But this was something where we're casting

lot of newcomers a lot of people that hadn't had a lot of experience At the time one of them actually has blown up She's on you're the worst as keller donahue and she was in a small role in my film at the time She had some credits and she she filmed for one day, you know So it was kind of just trying to be practical about asking for people's time and commitment knowing you weren't paying to make a multiple storyline a lot of actors and characters and then just

being inspired by the type of films at that time that I was digging. So I just wanted to kind of combine those two. So let me ask you this, Gary, if, did you ever, when, when, when Heather, uh, uh, got, you know, was just gotten that, that a level, uh, elite level, did you try to reach out to her and she say, who are you or something like that? Actually, no, you know, the funny thing was I, I moved to LA, right. I think as she booked it or was a

a little bit before she booked it. So she moved to LA, uh, before I did about four years ago or something like that. And we connected for dinner and, uh, you know, just caught up and then she booked it. And so, you know, she definitely thanked me when I texted her, I was like, Holy shit, congrats and stuff. And, you know, I mean, obviously she's busy now, so she won't write me back as often, but, uh, she definitely does respond. She's very sweet girl.

Yeah.

You're just going to be big time with everybody. Right. It's almost like you make it and you buy a new phone and don't import your contacts. So you're like, who the hell is this now? You're going to change your whole clique of people or something. That would be actually pretty terrible. Yeah.

And, you know, that's the dream, Gary. That's the dream. No, I'm just kidding. For everyone listening, I'm just making a joke. I don't want people writing me more hate mail. But walking aside, Gary, just to get back to your career, one thing that you taught me, and this was what you taught me a few years ago, which I've always kept with me, was when you're filming a movie,

and you're the director and you're directing these actors and you're going through take and take and take, one thing you taught me that I always keep with me is each take, you need to have a variation of something. So that way when you're editing, you have choices to go through. And

as, as, you know, pointed as that is for some reason, when I was making my, my first films, I don't know why I'd never thought of just even trying to do anything different. Cause like my early films, everything was like, every, everything was the same. Like every take was literally like exactly the same. And when you told me that, I was like, Oh yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. You know what I mean? And you make those adjustments. So, so that's something Gary that you've taught me that I've kept with me is just, you gotta, you gotta have those choices when you're in the editing room.

Yeah, man. That's funny because that basically happened on my first short film when I was sitting there reviewing the footage with my brother. He was like, dude, like every – like all these takes are the same thing. You didn't do anything else.

So what am I what are you trying to even choose except like if his hand, you know happens to like randomly lift up at this line versus this other line or whatever, you know, but Basically, I hadn't on that first film didn't tell him I do anything different because I was just looking for the single Thing I was so focused on trying to get this one thing That you know, I didn't really ask them to play around but I mean directors have different techniques some people like I

Definitely have one single thing in mind and they're just trying to nail that one thing and that's what it is. And I've heard other actors say that, you know, why do I want to play around with stuff? Like, just tell me what you want. I'm going to nail it. So it's funny. It's like, it's, it's this kind of organic thing that you feel on set.

You know what you want and you have to feel out how the actor and how the actor works and stuff. So it's it's it's really, really a weird thing to work as a director because you actually don't get to do it a lot. Well, not me. I don't get to do it a lot. You know, you there's like years in between times when you're on set. You can do it.

some smaller short projects or things like that. But when you think about it, the director, if you're fortunate, maybe you get to do two or three projects a year. If you're, you know, if you're playing around a lot more, that's great. But if you're doing like really big projects with a lot of money, the, the opportunity to work with actors is not as much when the, you know, when the money's going, when the crew's there and everything's on the line, like there's not, you don't get to do that very often. So it's not like you get a lot of practice.

Yeah, and very true. And, you know, that's why, again, we were talking about making movies yourself with, you know, even just for practice. So that way, when you do actually get up to the plate, you're actually able to sort of make the most of every every take and everything. And, you know, as we sort of talk about that, you know, these directing styles are.

One thing, too, I forget who taught me this, but basically I think I think I maybe heard it from somebody. But he said what he would do is he would just let he would let the actors go. The first take was with no direction. They would just go for the script. And then he then he would slowly come back in and start making adjustments here or there.

And, you know, some people are, you know, maybe their third take is always going to be their best for some weird reason. And then the other actor always has their best take is like the first take, you know, and just sort of working and knowing everybody sort of ticks like that or knowing that sort of thing, you know, that also helps repair, which is also why, Gary, I've noticed a lot of directors always work with the same actors over and over again.

Right. Very true. Very true. A part of the rehearsal process, if I'm lucky to get it, is finding out actors working style. You know, some people love to be told exactly what to do, like look here at this line and look there. And others want to be told, what's my motivation? Like, why am I doing this? I need to know and feel organically. If you need me to go over here or do this, like tell me like my internal character.

or motivation or behaviors or thoughts to be able to do that. So you can always explore that working relationship in rehearsals if you have the luxury. But you're right, it's funny because as you start filming, you realize, damn, this one actress, okay, her best takes are take one and two and then it just starts to, you know, fills a lot because she comes out of the gates like boom, you know, right there. And then there's others who are like, you know, we're not really going to get anything good until takes four, five and six because we've consistently seen that.

And you start, you know, you know, switching up your shot list because of that, which is hilarious. So, I mean, there's so many different things going on set as a director. It's funny that you got to think about things like that. And I'm talking to you about this because not really it doesn't get talked about a lot until you actually do it and you realize, oh, that's how it works. You know, otherwise, like books don't tell you this kind of stuff a lot of the time.

Yeah, and that's so true because, you know, I have a ton of filmmaking books. And, you know, as I've sort of read them through different eyes, you know, you read them through the eyes of like a complete novice, you know, you're a complete neophyte. And then you realize some of these books, they're written by people who've either never written or made a film, and it's a lot of theory, or they made a film like 30 years ago, and you're like, well, you know, okay, some of it's still pertinent, but some of it's just like, you know, hey, here's a great deal on Moviola. And you're like, what the?

So it's, you know, just stuff like that. And you realize, well, damn, this book's out of date. But, you know, that's why I wanted to start this podcast. Stuff like that, you know, really getting to the nitty gritty of stuff that people can actually take away. And it's actually full on, you know, actual practical advice. No theory. It's just this is how it is. And this is what you can do when a situation like that arrives. Exactly, man. The funniest thing I definitely in the beginning of my career, like,

12, 10, 12 years ago, I bought a lot of screenplay books. And obviously, when people are writing and they're reading these screen, how to, you know, how to write screenplays, you just take the golden nuggets from each book. Obviously, not every book is the Bible we have to follow to the T, you know, but it's funny when you actually look at these authors, when you actually research, like you said,

you take a look at their actual filmography, like what have they done? And sometimes it's nothing or, okay, they've sold a lot of stuff, which is great. Nothing has been made or some people like have sold one thing. So obviously they have some type of credentials, but they're not the only one that knows how to do it, which is, you know, the funniest thing. Cause I had some people try to tell me, Oh, your script doesn't follow Robert McKee. It's like, well, that's fine. You know, I don't want to follow Robert McKee's story. I, this, this,

script doesn't want to, you know, do his formula. There's, they're, they prescribed just to one book, which kind of drives me mad. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.

You know, I have, I do the same thing. The first book I ever read was actually a screenplay formatting book. It was called The Screenwriter's Bible. And I did read the story and, you know, by McKee. And, you know, I've read all these different books. And I think, you know, I'm in the same boat with you because I think a lot of the times people,

there's so much theory going on that eventually you have to say, well, what can I use out of this book? It's kind of what Bruce Lee always would say, you know, you get rid of, take what's useful and get rid of the rest. And you're always, you're always looking for that. You're always looking for like, what is that one quote or golden nugget that I'm going to read? That's good. I'm going to go, aha, I have an aha moment. And now my perception has changed. And that has given me a new way of thinking to solve a problem or a dilemma or something like that.

But you really – those books are really – it's few and far between because you're trying to constantly have all this theory and worry about all these formulas like, oh my gosh, does this scene have a positive or negative charge? You're like, what the hell does that even freaking mean? Yeah.

you know, you're, you're, you're have all this theory in, in these books and you sit there and you go, well, how do you, how do I actually implement that? You know, you can't be writing and go writing to a formula or writing to a template or writing to, Oh, does this scene have a negative or positive charge? And eventually you start getting lost in your own head and then you never actually, you get stuck in indecision and never actually do anything. Yeah, that's totally true because you're right. You just start overthinking things. And part of the

Goal is just to finish a script to me that I have so many people that have said oh I'm working on a script. I'm writing this. I'm writing that I've got an idea I always say have you finished it? Have you finished a draft? Well, no, I haven't it's like man, you know sick You got to get over that hump there's a lot of people that have this fear of just like Actually finishing and getting that feedback and I call I call it the vomit draft there's a million different names for the first draft and

You just got to get it out there, done, and give it to some trusted readers and just get that kind of feedback because, again, almost like making a film, it's writing a script is a learning lesson because after you write it, you've learned so much. You have something on the page to analyze and dissect now and get some feedback and then rewrite because, as they say, the cliche is writing is rewriting.

Yeah, writing is rewriting, definitely. Because once you get that out, you have to, then you can go back and figure out what actually things are. Oh, this is what this means. And I think a lot of times, too, that's where we get sort of caught up. I think a lot of times where writers get caught up, honestly, Gary, is input versus output.

And here's what I mean by that. I think a lot of times when writers are writing a script or maybe on the filmmakers are making a short film or a feature length film, they're more focused on the output of what the movie is going to give them, meaning that all this movie is going to go to Sundance and we're going to win and we're all going to become millionaires overnight.

And I guilty, I think we've all had that. Honestly, man, I think we've all had that where it's like, Hey, this, this short film, this, I'm going to put this up on YouTube or I'm going to do this and we're going to become, you know, overnight sensations. And that's going to be our meal ticket. And I, and I, and I honestly think you have to have that attitude at some point because you have to have some kind of passion or in the game that you're going to be the best one. And, and,

I honestly think that's actually a good thing, but I think the other part of it is it's like a double-edged sword because then you become so focused on what it's going to give you that you're not focused on that input of actually making it a good movie or focused on the right parts of it.

I totally agree. It's a hard thing to balance. You definitely want to make a living at it, so you want that type of success, but it shouldn't be your driving goal when you're creating because then you're kind of guessing what some other person wants when it should be your story. It should be what you want to tell and the byproduct of that. And as always, you see that, especially at the

film festivals and the festival darlings, usually it's the more personal the story, it's actually the more accessible it is to an audience because they still relate to it because they see that struggle regardless of race or gender or sexual orientation and whatnot. They relate to that struggle. So it's something where the more watered down and the more you're trying to guess, the more story by committee the film is, then it just becomes something that nobody really cares about.

Yeah, there's universal themes that really could hit home. And also when I notice when a movie does come with a story like, hey, this is a biopic or, hey, this is something that's actually happened to me. And it's, you know, I mean, I've had, you know, different people who I actually had a Sundance.

award winner on here, which was Morgan J. Freeman. He's episode 99. He was actually on here. He actually won Sundance, I think in what, 92 or something. And he was explaining, you know, how the whole thing sort of came together. And, you know, it's, you know, it was a movie about these kids in New York.

and a lot of people were like, hey, you know what? It has a universal theme. You can grow up anywhere like this and you'll feel some of that. You'll feel some of those universal themes like ostracization, being a kid, stuff like that. That's why it's not a bad thing to put any of that stuff in a screenplay. I was part of a writer's group one time and

People were actually saying like, oh, why does everything have to have universal themes? I'm like, because it's what draws people into your story, feelings of regret and stuff like that. Everyone has those. And I think that that's a key element to sort of why some screenplays sell, get made, et cetera. Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny too because there's not a formula at all. I mean I made – my most successful one to date was – and festival-wise, critically wise, was Howdy Writer Joe Sherman's on my musical. And it's about Broadway musicians, about Broadway people aspiring for success. And some characters are people that haven't reached it and they almost have to give up their career. And it's about striving but not getting there ever.

And even though it's about Broadway, I had so many people at the festival circuit come up to me and say, man, I just really felt for this character or that character's me, even though they're not a dancer or a singer. But within their life, they had some type of goal that they never reached and they never achieved.

got to get there and they will never get there. And so it's, again, like you said, a universal theme. It can be any topic or subject setting, but there's something there that people relate to. And that was powerful for me to learn from that film because I made other films that I thought were great and they, you know, didn't turn out how I thought they were going to be. And, you know, the festivals didn't really take to them.

audiences, you know, some, some liked it, some didn't. So it's just, you know, once you have that type of critical success, it's not like you can just copy and paste it to the next thing. You know, it's always, it's such a organic, interesting process to try to just create something that people will respond to. Yeah. And that's the key. That's why I think a lot of times when people take these movies and they sort of,

They deconstruct them. They'll take like the Godfather or Raging Bull or whatever, and they take it and they reverse engineer it and they go, how can I make that? Oh, you see this one scene here in Scarface where he kills the guy unexpectedly? Well, that's his hero's turning point, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay. At first, when you're reading these screenwriting books, you're like, oh, wow, yeah, that's a brilliant –

That's a brilliant thing to say. That's a brilliant analytical statement. But then as you sort of realize, well...

But how does that work towards us? Maybe you might be able to say, hey, if someone's reading your screenplay, hey, remember in Scarface when he did this thing? Oh, yeah, it might be cool here. Maybe. I don't know. But to write using that whole idea, I don't know if that holds a lot of weight to it. You don't want to be ripping off movies. I actually had a friend of mine who was in a screenwriting competition, but he was a judge. And he literally said he would read these screenplays.

And he said, okay, this is a scene from The Godfather. This is a scene from, you know, Casino, stuff like that. And he realized they're just copying these movies because, you know, that's what they like and they're trying to make a version of that. Right. That's true. But you know what, Dave? I think every script needs the line, you know, first you get the power. Once you get the power, then you get the women. Like everyone needs that. Yeah.

No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, no, I mean, it's so true, though. Like you can't you can't just like I said, copy and paste things. You can definitely be inspired by stuff, but, you know, you can be influenced by things. But to try to just say it worked there. It's a moment I can think that I think will just work here because it worked there. That's that's a little hard to kind of like force it in. So, you know, it's something where.

It's a learning lesson again. I think people definitely, once they finish that script and get that feedback, you can tell when something's authentic and should be there, whereas people will be like, this feels like it's from outer left field because it was doing this. And all of a sudden you put this scene in here and it totally doesn't make sense. Yeah. And you know,

I do agree that that line should be in every movie, by the way, that should be, I've, I've take that back. It should be in every movie. And, uh, that, that, that is, uh, you know, that is something that, that it just lets you know who the guy is, you know, who, who the guy is. And then once the women in the power and, and everything, right. Yeah.

So, you know, guys, as we're talking sort of to about, you know, making writing screenplays and and actually all these sort of fine points about directing. I wanted to ask about your second feature film, because after you made your first feature, after you made your first film in New York, you know, where at what point did you start wanting to make your second one? Were you already like, look, I'm going to use this momentum and push this right into my second film, which was I think it was. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Dying of the Dead, right? Actually, I got lucky. I got hired to make a horror movie called Dismal by some producers who were based in North Carolina, and we went to shoot in Georgia. So that was just a director for hire. And I wanted to gain that experience of working with somebody else's script, working with a producer, working on location. So I was out in Georgia for, I think, five or six weeks working.

So it was something I got very lucky with. And I was really excited because I started looking like Woody Allen or Steven Soderbergh. I was pumping out like, wow, this year I got two movies coming out. And then the next year I had What's Up Lovely, which I was doing on my own, and I made it for like $2,000. So I had three movies coming out in two years. So I was like, this is cool. This is something I'm going to keep doing because it feels so easy. Movie of the year, yeah, this is a great pace. Yeah.

Obviously it doesn't, it doesn't work like that. Yeah. Sorry. Eventually the brakes start to slam and you're like, oh man. And, um, you know, and, and I think we've all been there too. We were like, well, what the hell's next? And you, you just want to make something, you know, you're like, I make anything. Let's just do this thing. Uh,

Uh, so I, but I, but I, what I meant to say was, uh, death of the dead. I'm sorry. I call it dying of the dead, but death of the dead. So I'm starting to like all, all, you know, all the Romero movies are coming into no, but I'm just kidding. But, uh, but when you actually, so when you started to actually go back and make your own films, uh,

You know, at what point were you just like, you know, I want to go back to making my own stuff. I mean, you did say you got a director for hire gig and you got to work with somebody else's script. But at what point were you like, you know, I want to go back to just, you know, doing some more of my own my own material?

guys you know at that time i was really really inspired by steven soderbergh and his body of work at you know his commercial peak was i think god the the late 90s mid 2000s what he was doing we were saying we were calling it the one for one for me one for them one for them one for me so he was doing you know aaron brockovich for the studio but then he'd go and make like the limey or he make out of sight for the ceo then he'd go and make

Some – gosh, is it Full Frontal I think it was called? So he'd make smaller independent films, experimental stuff like The Girlfriend Experience. I was in love with him doing smaller films that were taking risks and doing –

different type of storytelling and then he'd make something for the studio and obviously I was doing on a way lower budget way lower scale and scope but that was kind of like my idol at the time just like you know if I can sustain this thing where I'm going to make something for myself and then go get hired to do something and take some of that money and you know funnel it back into mine to make another film for myself like this could be kind of cool and that's what I was trying to do in my early early career with the first I think four films or so

Yeah. You know, Steven Soderbergh, he's always up to something and it's always really cool to see directors like that. I have a friend of mine. He loves Richard Linkletter because Richard just does whatever he wants. I mean, if you watch. Same thing. Yeah, exactly. Because if you watched his latest one, which I think is called Everyone Loves Some or Everyone Wants Some, that one that was out last year, I had a friend of mine who watched it and was like, Dave, is there a plot to this movie? And I said, well, no, it's Richard Linkletter. It's just, you know, it is what it is.

And, you know, I knew what to expect going in there, you know. And that's sort of what I think everybody wants to have. Now the director's career, whoever wants to have, is, of course, Damien Chazet. Because, you know, he did La La Land and then he did...

Whiplash, thank you I just blanked out on that name But That's sort of the thing Again, I think a lot of people are Focused on that output Because again, you're saying Damien now can pretty much Do whatever he wants It used to be Tarantino Everyone wanted his career And that's where I'm guilty at, Gary I still want his career Just because he came out of nowhere Working at a video store That's what I love, is that he didn't go to film school Or anything else

Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, that's I remember you on your other podcast, you mentioned that you worked, I think, at a video store. I worked at a blockbuster up in Seattle for one summer while I was in school. And it was awesome, man. And again, I didn't go to film school either. And so it's something where just watching films, absorbing them. And then again, is more about the actual making of them is is the education you need. Film school was amazing. Don't get me wrong. If I

had the chance, the networking opportunity is amazing. The people, the connections you get, the alumni connections you get once you start entering the industry are totally, totally amazing. And that's something I wish I'd done. But I met so many people that have gone to film school

or know people that have gone and they say, oh, well, they, you know, they don't really, they don't really make movies. So they don't really know how to do like direct movies. They, they've done some shorts, but they've never done a feature or whatever. So it's, you know, it's double-edged sword, but it's something I think everyone was living that dream when you wanted to be Tarantino or Robert Rodriguez back in the nineties. And like you said, Dame Chazelle now it's, there's so many, that's a good thing. Like you have idols to aspire to be, which is, you know, keeps your fire going.

So when you worked at that blockbuster in Seattle, do you have any funny stories, Gary? Any funny customer stories? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The best one I remember was we had a tape, you know, the Dropbox, the overnight Dropbox. So we come in the morning shift.

We go through the bin, empty the drop box, and you always have to do the check. So like it says back, you know, Lash the Mohicans, you have to open up the case and make sure it's Lash the Mohicans in there, you know. So we're doing through the check to make sure the tapes are correct. And I open up the case and the title is just, let's say, Lash the Mohicans. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was this wasn't that tape. All it had was this label that said X, handwritten X.

I'm like, what's this? I'm not sure what this is. We better check to see what it's – I have a feeling what it might be. The store is not opening. I'm going to put it on the overhead monitors just to see. And it was full-on fucking. Like it was a total porn, and someone had returned the wrong tape. And it was funny because we had to look up –

The customer, we had to make that embarrassing call. And as soon as we called, as soon as we called, hey, this is Blockbuster, the customer just said, oh, you got the porn, didn't you? Like he knew. Somehow he knew. And so that was I think probably the weirdest, funniest story because, I mean, who the hell returns a porno to Blockbuster? This is crazy. It's just called X.

And they label it X. I mean, at least name it like, you know, Debbie Does Dallas or like title. Unless in his house you think his filmography is like XX1, XX2, XX3.

X3 and he has like a database because he doesn't want his wife to know those are like porn so he's got like you know some secret you know filing system or something he's hiding away and it's weird but you know but they're all they're all laid you know they're all displayed nicely on the shelf but the wife thinks they're like oh it's like x-man or something like who knows but then it's something else totally yeah

There could be a movie in there too, Gary. Like some guy returns a tape and the Blockbuster employees like watch this and they're like, oh my God, this is like a smut film. And then the guy comes after them. There's almost like a movie in there. That's like, I love Brian De Palma blowout or that's like blow up. That's like, that's totally dude. That's like, and you could set it in the 80s because like they don't have video stories anymore, video stories anymore. It's like 80s or 90s. Dude, I think you got a film.

Yeah, we should we should write that together, man. Well, OK, so dark comedy or suspense thriller. Oh, you know what? I think dark comedies work better right now, but it could be a cool suspense thriller to throw back, you know, just almost like that Brian De Palma style, kind of like, you know, sisters. Wow. That'd be really dark.

But I would love a female lead. That'd be cool if she's the one that finds it. And then, you know, this guy starts trying to like you said, trying to get that tape back. That's interesting. That's that's pretty cool, man.

By the way, everyone listening to this, that's Gary and I's now trademark. Right. Licensed. Yeah. You and I are going to be in the theater just like eating popcorn for a preview of some of the new Tarantino Manson family murder movie. And you're going to see that's going to be a trailer. This idea. Wait a minute. That was that podcast. I do with Dave. That was our idea. Right.

Right. From Paramount Studios X. She was a lonely videos to her black button. And then it changed. Yeah. Right.

But that would be a fun idea to do. Because I know a lot of times, Kevin Smith, you can't see it because it's a podcast, but I have a Kevin Smith podcast figure in front of me. And he always uses his podcast as sort of like a way to sort of get new movie ideas and stuff like that. And I think it's great because I think podcasting is such a really cool tool

Some people make books out of it, like Tim Ferriss and James Altucher and stuff like that. And I really like Kevin's idea, though, just using it to sort of facilitate making new movies and stuff like that or what have you. I think it's just really cool as a creative outlet. You know what I mean? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show.

Yeah, man, that is really cool. I didn't realize he did that. It's I think if you have an audience, podcasting could be amazing, you know, because it is the way to directly talk with them instead of having to like write tweets or like a long Facebook post. I mean, it's definitely something where it's a lot more you get to like.

express yourself a lot more quickly and something like you said organically instead of having a proofreader writing and then just sharing with your audience and then getting feedback that way that's that's interesting man it's something uh again if you had a pretty good listening audience that's something that really could work you know and he has he has a huge audience I mean he has a huge audience yeah he he does and uh you know I actually have I've had on the Thornton brothers um and they had a really cool idea for a film that centered around a podcast and basically the

It's about a guy who is in his basement and he's this real far right radical guy. And he has this podcast that he uses to sort of just through all this venom and hate to out in the world. And then one day a listener comes to silence him. And it's a really, really cool idea. It's called Cactus Jack. And I can't wait to see them do it. And I really just hope that they keep pushing forward with it.

Did they pitch it on the show to you or they were already working on it and they just kind of told you this is what we're doing? Oh, yeah. They were already working on it and they pitched it. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, that's cool. I mean it sounds like a one location type of thing. It's like a smaller budget to be able to just – or is it like a huge scope type movie? It's just one location, almost like Don't Breathe. Nice. Which I think is awesome. I'm like, guys, keep going with that idea, man.

Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because it totally reminded me and it's totally not the same film, but just pump up the volume with Christian Slater from the 80s. And he wasn't even like a far right guy in that movie, but he was just this underground college DJ. But I just kind of see that setting just like if they can get an actor to be, you know, as charismatic as Christian Slater from back then, or if it's a female, who knows if they're actually gay.

thinking it's gonna be female but i mean yeah whoever's playing that dj better be fucking charismatic because they're gonna be carrying that movie a lot that's that's really cool yeah they actually did some uh test screening and he's actually like real real interesting and uh by the way i apologize for for going off topic and i'm talking about other people's movies i'm sorry no man no that's awesome that's awesome so let's talk more about kevin smith uh but uh yeah

But you mentioned one of your movies, by the way, that you crowdfunded, which was How Do You Write a Joe Shermer Song? I wanted to ask you about that. You successfully crowdfunded a large portion of, I believe there was going to be an orchestra as part of one of the extended goals, I believe. So I wanted to ask, Gary, where did the impetus for the idea come from to actually make this film? And really, how did you go about actually making it?

So I've always loved musicals growing up. My parents showed them to me and it was something that I always just enjoyed. Like I did not have a problem with people just breaking out in a song and dance. And they showed me like Singing in the Rain, Music Man, My Fair Lady. And I loved them. And then I discovered West Side Story, which is a little bit darker, but they still broke out into song and dance. And I was like, this is awesome. You know, musical is one of my favorite genres. And then I discovered all that jazz. And I was like, wow.

wow, this blew my mind. Like the editing style and the way the songs were incorporated into the film versus them breaking out into song and dance. Like, you know, that's a totally different type of musical. And then Once came out and I was like, man, okay, so this is like low key, smaller film, but amazing songs, you know, but shot for $150,000 and,

So I was like, okay, like, I love musicals. I don't think we make enough of them. And I wanted to do something for modern audiences, which kind of blended both the spectacle and being realistic. So I wanted to write a story that kind of was grounded in reality, but still had some amazing songs. But I never had the songs. So

I just had that idea for years until after I moved to New York again. I was there for a few years, networked, made a few films. And Mark DiConzo, one of my lead actors from New York lately, had a friend named Joe Sherman. And he said, dude, I want to show you something. We were at, let's see,

I'm trying to think, North Carolina, we were in North Carolina at the Charlotte Film Festival. And it was in Mark's room and he pulls out his laptop because I want to show you something. He's like, "Dude, Mark, I don't want to watch porn right now. "We're at a festival, it's all good." And he's like, "No, no, no, this guy named Joe Sherman, "he writes music and it's awesome." And he showed me some songs and I was like, "Is this guy for real? "Is he already signed? "Is he doing Broadway shows?" He's like, "No, he just moved from Minnesota."

And he's just, you know, fresh off the boat and he's like trying to make his way in New York. And I was like, I got to meet this guy. And we did. We talked and I told him about my initial idea about

aspiring artists that are anonymous in New York. There's so many, you know, amazingly talented singers and dancers in New York, but they're your waiter, they're your server, they're your bartender, you know, and you'll never know that they're actually talented. That was the first spark of the idea of the film to be like, I want to show what these people do and the struggles they go through and the fact that you'll never know because they'll never make it.

And that evolved a little bit after, but that was the beginning. And with his songs incorporated and just starting to do a few drafts and just honing in the story, that's how it became the movie that it is.

And you see, that's sort of how those ideas sort of ferment. Those ideas sort of come out of nowhere. And it's just amazing how even a simple thing like someone showing you a video can just open up a whole new sea of things and a whole new sea of ideas and possibilities. Right, man. I have like...

literally right now, 15 different ideas. And back then, you know, I was tooling around with like three or four. And, but the thing that always happens is I meet somebody or I find a location where something happens where all of a sudden that idea bubbles to the top. So for Among Us, the film that's coming out, the horror movie coming out August 8th, gotta plug it. That film, I had always wanted to do a horror movie before,

But, you know, didn't think about it other than that I just want to make something scary. And again, Mark DiConzo, my usual guy, the actor said, my family has a lake house up in Maine. We could totally shoot for next to nothing as long as we just, you know, we can stay there and just make sure we don't screw up the house or anything. And then, you know, and I was like, OK, we can't blow it up. OK, we won't blow it up, but we'll make it a haunted house. But I want to twist the convention to play with the genre so it doesn't feel like

paint by numbers type of movie but that's you know again like that's why that movie came about that's why we shot that one next so there's always something that comes into play that brings the project to the to the surface so you can't blow up the house you can't you can't go through the walls you can't you know put blood everywhere take away all your fun gary

I know, man. I know. So then we just wrote a, you know, one room talkie movie with white walls behind it and shot on high eight VHS. No, I'm just kidding. No, I mean, we've definitely that was that's the part of the fun is like, OK, so there's a little bit of, you know, constraints. So how are you going to be creative around that? And that's what how the film became what it is.

You know, it's funny and I do want to ask you about the about the film again in just one second I want to take a little anecdote about filming in a friend's house a friend of mine a friend of mine when I did my student film which is my first ever film and

I actually, he said, Hey, we can film my grandparents' house. He goes, they're away. They have like three houses and this is the one house that they're not going to use. And they're not using for the time for a long while. And we can film there. The first day of filming, we accidentally knocked the entire door off the hinges. And because this guy had to burst into a room, right?

So rather than... And what happens is the door... I've never seen a bathroom like this. The door hits into the sink. There's no stopper or whatever. So he bursts in the room and he hits the door. The door gets the sink. And literally the door comes off in his hand. Like he's now holding the door. It's like a prop.

And he's like, what? And the guy goes, what the fuck did you just do? And now we're like, we were trying and we're trying to actually figure this out. So then it becomes the idea of do we call a carpenter or do we try to fix it ourselves?

And it's almost like a sitcom. It's almost like a bad 80s sitcom where it's like, oh, great. We got to fix this door. And as we fix the door, something else has to break. But we ended up, the guy's dad was actually, had a carpenter friend. He came in and he actually fixed the door for us at a later time. It was just the incident itself.

So two things come to mind with that story. So number one, hopefully you use that take in the film. Like that made it into the movie. Oh, yeah. Okay. And two –

You could totally tell you guys were film nerds versus like sex freaks because like risky business, like if someone's house was empty, like party. But you guys said, let's make a movie. You guys were film nerds, which is great. Kudos to that. Exactly. A couple of guys fill a house to themselves. Time to make a movie, right? Right. That's the first thing that comes to my mind. Yeah.

It's funny, too, because that same guy, his grandparents let us use their beach house. I'm sorry to keep going on these stories. No, this is great. This is great. He said, hey, my grandparents are going to let us use their beach house. So, you know, of course, hey, let's bring down some beer. Let's bring down some stuff.

Well, when we get there, he says, oh, there's only one rule. And I said, what's that? He goes, there can be no girls here. And I said, why is that? He goes, well, if somebody were to come in, like for my family, he goes, they told my grandparents they would get upset because they're very old fashioned and this and that. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

So I said, well, we can make another movie while we're in here. And he stared daggers into me. And he goes, I'd rather just have a party. Nice.

Yeah, because this guy was, I think, a little burned out of movies after the first one. But no, it was just hilarious. And that was – we ended up just actually driving to AC anyway because he was right by AC. So we ended up – I ended up winning like $200 at a slot machine that night. Nice. Nice. That's awesome.

But I want to get back to your actual filmography. And your latest film is actually due out August the 8th. So if you could, could you just give us sort of a summary of the film, give us a log line, and just a little more – any more information you can give us about the film? Yeah, so Among Us is –

It's a supernatural thriller, a horror thriller. It's about two – it's a married couple of two characters mainly. It's a very character-driven story about – my original idea was –

to start the movie off with people just leaving the house already because with most horror movies you always ask if the house is haunted why don't you just leave so this one we already address it they leave the house and they get into a car accident the husband gets paralyzed and we flash forward a few months and they're struggling with their marriage now they're living in an isolated area hoping they've escaped whatever was haunting them they've lost their child they're a broken

broken family. And the story is really about trying to move on and trying to still stay together and still love each other amongst all this tragedy. And there's a haunting still. So it's something where I try to make something a little bit different, but still play with a lot of stuff where there is some scares and some suspense. But there's definitely more there. And I don't want to talk about

The other elements that I put in there, other than that, I love to – I channeled Brian De Palma, Little John Carpenter. But also I had films when I was writing and making it that I showed the actors and my DP that I wanted to kind of feel in terms – I wanted our film to feel like in terms of the tone. So it would be like Eyes Wide Shut, that marriage. Think about that marriage that they had. The Grey with Liam Neeson, Joel Carnahan's The Grey.

Three Colors Blue was another one. Insidious, The Descent, Rust and Bone. So these were the ones that I kind of told people, like, these are the films that show people that are struggling and you really care for them. And that's the kind of movie that I really wanted to make. Yeah. And I love those movies, by the way, that you mentioned, because those movies, you know, are those sort of movies where it's more about the character and more about, you know, using the location you have rather than again. Exactly. Rather than again. Exactly. I'm sorry, Gary.

Oh, no, just that, yeah, I'm agreeing with you. I thought I kept cutting you off. I'm sorry about that. No. Because sometimes I accidentally cut people off. I'm sorry about that.

that. But I always say like, whoops, sorry, I didn't mean to step on your line. But, but what happens is, you know, movies like that are really cool. And I mean, like the grave, for instance, I remember the selling point for me was they had a production still, or maybe it was, maybe it was just a quick video and Liam Neeson had those broken mini bottles on his hands, ready to fight those wolves. And I went, well, this movie is going to be great. I mean, how can you go wrong about that? Yeah.

Right, right. It's yeah, that movie is amazing. It was one of my favorite movies that year. I mean, the performances and again, just the kind of movies that I love is like you really get to know the characters who care about them. And then the shit goes down, you know, and

that's something I analyzed and this is how we're talking about scripts like I didn't analyze the script of the exorcist but I watched it and I remember it was about 40 minutes into the running time before anything really you know spooky happened so it's 40 minutes of character development and I was lucky enough to talk to William Freakinette he did a book signing and this was in Brooklyn we just had watched sorcerer and he had an autobiography come out and after the screening I got him to sign and I just said hey

Mr. I said, Billy, I didn't say Billy. I said, Mr. Friedkin, what advice you have for me if I'm going to go shoot a horror movie in a few a few weeks, actually? Do you have any advice, just simple advice? And he just said, no bullshit scares make us care. And that's exactly what I aim to do. So and using that advice, that's when he says no bullshit scares. Yeah.

using that advice, does he mean like none of the sort of stuff where like, you know, a scare happens or... And it's like turns out to just be a false... You know what I mean? Like the person sort of looks behind the curtain and there's nothing there and then a cat... No, no, because that...

I remember because The Exorcist had a moment when, you know, the mother goes up to the attic and there's a big candle and a flame and she's scared because the caretaker is up there. So that's like a genuine thing because it happened. I think it's the one where the hand comes off and touches you, you know, when they're like – I'm trying to think of what movies it is. But like a character is looking around a spooky house and then a hair – I mean a hand comes from a frame. Yeah.

And then touches a shoulder. And then the music is jacked by like, you know, 10 times louder now. And just, just to give you that scare versus like a scare that's earned, you know? Yes. And there's actually a really good, uh, uh, sort of, uh,

movie school, if you will, about that, where if you look at the first Halloween, where Donald Pleasance is sitting outside Michael Myers' house, and those kids go up there, and they're like, hey, knock on the door, and Donald Pleasance, as Dr. Loomis goes, hey, Mike, get out of here, you motherfucker, you little...

shit. And the kids freak out and they run away. Well, Donald Pleasance is all proud of himself. Well, the sheriff grabs his shoulder real quick, but there's no music whatsoever. There's none. It's just Loomis going, oh my God, Jesus, you could have been Michael Myers. And it's just that right there. And I realized I never even thought of it until I watched it again. I'm like, man, there is no musical cue there. And it's brilliant. It's almost like that guy, John Carpenter knows what he's doing.

Yeah, right. I think he might have something. He might go places. No, but like, yeah, Halloween is an amazing film. And I think there's another scene where Jamie Lee Curtis Laurie is walking in the daytime and she's walking home from school. And I think she's staring at

at the house and as she's staring at the house, she bumps into somebody. And again, I don't believe there's like a music cue there, but it's, it starts the shit out of you. And it's exactly, you know, the point, like, so we have something in my movie where I totally didn't purposely try to make it a jump scare, but there's a moment, like some character says,

something to someone whose back is turned. And I didn't put in a cue. I didn't put in like this to try to like just make people jump because it's not earned. That's like the jolt. That's like a startling moment versus like a truly, truly terrifying moment where you're

because it's actually happening to that character in that scene, not because the score is making it happen. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because I think that... And that's the main problem I have with a lot of modern horror movies too is there's no real idea of... There's no real core. You know what I mean? It just feels like it's sort of put together. You know what I mean? And it's just...

I actually, that's a problem I have with a lot of movies lately, but I digress. I mean, trust me, I watch so many movies, Gary, and I have a 20-minute rule. If you can't draw me in with the first 20 minutes, I turn it off. You know, I'm done with that. But I just feel sometimes that there's not a lot of, there's too much money, not enough creativity, or maybe there's too much focus on the output, not enough on the input, you know?

Yeah. I mean, thankfully, there's a resurgence of solid horror movies lately. But like you said, I mean, for every solid horror movie, there's like 10 that copy it or copied the one that came before it. That was a hit. And they don't really know what they're doing. They're just trying to copy the formula. And that's that's when it just becomes stale or, you know, something where you're like this. This this has no this had no reason to be made except for money, because obviously people really didn't care about it.

But so with your new movie Among Us coming out on August the 8th, where can people view that at? It is actually available on every major cable provider, which is amazing. This is my first time my film is going to be this wide to basically be on demand. So if you're at home on August 8th, you can just turn on your cable provider and Among Us will be there.

You can also get it on iTunes, Amazon, Google, YouTube, like all those kind of streaming kind of services, VOD services you can get. And it also is available on DVD and Blu-ray on Amazon.com. And the DVD and Blu-ray have some bonus features. So it has a deleted scene, alternate ending, and some bloopers. So you get some fun stuff that way. I love physical media. I still collect physical media. I know I'm old school, but I wanted to make sure our distributors

Gravitas Ventures put some bonus features on if they're going to put out physical meters. You got to put something – you can't put out bare-bones stuff. You got to put something fun for people to be able to want to collect it. Yeah, I mean Gravitas is awesome by the way. I mean congratulations on everything, Gary. I mean just from meeting you a few years ago, I mean you have just exploded. I'm like, man, he's Twitter verified. He's got a wiki page. I mean, man. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, if that's a, if that's success, then sure, I'll take it. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. But, you know, obviously for me, the funniest thing is like,

If there's you're never satisfied where you're at, because, man, 10 years ago, I would have loved to be here now where I'm sitting being like, man, OK, a film with distribution. That's awesome, because, you know, when I first started the first two or two films I made went in terms of distribution, didn't get picked up.

And so now I'm like, I have distribution. This is great. They actually gave me a sweet deal. We're making money. This is awesome. But now obviously I want something bigger. I want something a little bit more. And that's the thing that drives me to keep going. So thank you again. I didn't, I totally don't mean like not to sound like I, that I'm not very appreciative. Like I totally, I,

love the fact of where I'm at, but it's just, there's so much more to do and so much things to, to create that. I just want so much more. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. I completely understand Gary. Trust me. I completely understand, man. You know, there, there is nothing wrong against universal theme. There's nothing wrong with wanting a better life for yourself.

Right. That's true, man. That's very true. But yeah, it's for the funniest thing is that I was shocked about the Wikipedia page. I have no clue who created it. I was really shocked about that piece. I mean, I still don't know. Some sometimes I see it being updated. And I'm like, wow, I don't know. I don't know who's doing this. This is funny.

See, I expect, go ahead. I was going to say, see, you're, you've got this fan base you've been developing and, and, and they're doing it, you know, and, uh, they're, they're, they're holding the Gary King or they could think you're that guy from that world's end with that. I think that's the page. I think that's the page there. Actually, they thought they were doing, and then it turned out to be me. Yeah. That's, that's pretty much right. When I saw that movie, I was like, Oh, Gary King. I know that guy. That was part of the fun of that movie. Cause, uh, uh,

my friends said when they were watching, they would giggle every time. Not, I mean, the movie's funny, but they're like, it was the extra funny factor because they'd be like Gary King. And it's like, they just think of me and start giggling. Yeah. It's a, again, that's all. I got another layer of enjoyment out of that movie too. Uh, just because, um, by the way, Gary, speaking of which, uh, some Twitter questions came in. Do you have a few minutes just to answer maybe one or two questions? I guess.

So this question came in. I'm sorry, let me go grab my phone. I know this is not good for an audio podcast. As I grab my phone, I know everyone's like, oh, right. So this one came in and it said, I demand to know what Gary's favorite records are to write to. All caps. This is the most important question. So Gary, what are your favorite records to write to? Jesus. Oh, man.

Oh, God. So, yeah, it's it definitely varies from script to script, obviously, when, you know, you're writing a certain genre, you kind of pick make create a playlist for your stuff. So I actually did a music drama that's done and we're in development almost, you know, hoping to shoot soon as being shopped around. It's kind of a road trip movie about a singer songwriter. So I pulled up, man, I made a playlist of these random people, you know,

The beauty of Spotify, and I'm not being sponsored by Spotify here, but I can pull up the playlist right now since I'm sitting at my computer. I'll name a few artists from that playlist that I had. So you went to your phone. I'm going to my laptop. Let's see here. By the way, I actually just submitted to have this podcast on Spotify. So if you are endorsed by them, Gary, please put in a good word for us. Right. Okay, so I had...

Let's see. So I had some Johnny Cash, Joni Mitchell, Marvin Gaye, Beach Boys,

let's see, Iggy Pop, REO Speedwagon, Joel Cocker, The Who, Future Islands. Let's tell this reader, I'm not this reader, this listener, I will share my playlist with you if he tweets me. I can always send this off to him. I can make it public. But yeah, no, it's definitely like, it's a road trip movie. It's a singer-songwriter and she meets a guy who plays like

like the blues. And so it's all these different styles that are going through. And she's remembering her father had passed away and he loved, you know, older kind of music, like the Beach Boys and stuff. So it's like a mishmash of all these types of musical styles. So it celebrates various types of artists and genres as, as this movie goes along. So I'm really happy about it. I can't wait to make it. The, the, the guy did actually tweet both of us. So it's Dave Mulholland. So you can see, you'll see the tweet on your timeline.

Right. Nice. Okay. And the second question that came in, Gary was, was, uh, I'm sorry, I put my phone down, but I know that just of it was basically what was basically, uh, you know, where, if, if you could give any advice for a person to start making a film, where would it be? What would it be? I'm sorry. Um, any first time, first time ever, like a first time filmmaker.

It's funny because I remember – so there's a piece of advice that Altman says is basically don't take any advice. And he's a maverick, and he's one of those guys who didn't take any advice, and he just did his own thing. So that's one thing that you can say, but the other one for me is –

Just not to give up. Definitely see it through to the end because once you do, you'll either know if you love it and you've been bitten by the bug to want to make more or if you've had enough and think, okay, I did that and I'm going to try something else now. Because filmmaking is not easy. There's a lot of work into it, a lot of different people that come into play.

I was very fortunate to meet people early on in my career that believed in me and wanted to work with me for very little money. And I know the Duplass brothers say this too, where they say, you know, if you're making a movie and people, you're paying people a hundred a day just to be there.

But, you know, others are asking for more. Those aren't the people you want to work with when you're starting out because you want people there for you, for the story, not for the money, because at that stage, at that level, everyone's there trying to make something great, trying to elevate their careers. So it's something just do it, do it for the love and then do it again.

And you know, that is excellent advice, Gary. Don't take any advice. No, but right. So whatever I just said, just delete it and then just go do what, go do what you want. Yeah. And seriously, and getting together and, and this is not to, not to keep you for too long. I'm sorry, Gary. I know we're going over, but I just wanted to mention one thing that I've been listening. I listened to a lot of podcasts on my drive to and from work. And I also listened to a lot of books on audible, uh,

via audible. And one thing I've noticed is, you know, building that mastermind, building a crew around you, you know what I mean? Of people who are not only supportive, but also are striving to make you better and, and also bring you opportunities and stuff like that. And, and, uh, and it's, and it's a mutual beneficial thing. You know, it's not just all them giving to you, but I think just, you know, uh,

Finding those people is like a skill in and of itself. You know what I mean? Like finding a producer who just would work with you. Almost like finding your Frank Marshall or finding your Lawrence Bender. Something like that. You know what I mean? Right. And people have asked me to...

I do so. I'm okay. This is the only time where I'm going to get a little cocky, Gary. I'm not a very cocky guy. I am actually, I, I'm not going to just, just make stuff up. I'm actually very good at networking and producing stuff. I, I, that is the only time I ever going to, I, I've realized I'm, it's just like a natural thing for me to do. And I'm always meeting new people and stuff like that. And, um, that, that's going to be your soundbite to promote this show, by the way, you're just going to use that piece right there.

Like, who is this guy again? Why am I listening to this show? But that's actually what I'm really good at. And honestly, when I've been asked to do other people's movies, I'm always like, I don't want to fucking do that. I don't want to make it in somebody else's movie. I want to make my own movies, you know? And it's just kind of...

You kind of wonder where to draw that line, though. Because that's what I've been wondering in the past couple of years. Because I've turned down so many movie projects that have been offered me as producer because I'm just like, well, there's no money in it. You know what I mean? And it's probably good for both of us that I turned it down because I was just looking for money from this one project. And it's not what I really want to do. So my heart's not into it. You know what I mean? So I think it's good for everybody if me saying no.

Yeah, no, I mean, a great producer is hard to find. I produce myself out of necessity, not because I love it, but finding a producer that loves it is rare. And if they're good at it, you got to hold on to them. And that's why I'm sure, like you said, Lawrence Bender worked with Tarantino for like three or four films and all these other people. They partner up for a very, very long time.

And it's something my wife does very well, and she does for my films only because, like you, it's like I believe in these projects. I don't want to be hired to do something just to do it. So it's something where –

It's such a hard skill and it's such a – it's not only hard but it's something – it's very delicate like you said. You have to be very good at what you do to get things done right away. And it's – again, if – I might be giving you a call later about producing but no, I'm just kidding. You definitely – the cool thing as a filmmaker for yourself too is

You know what it takes to produce something. So as you're writing it or as you're directing it, you can wear both hats to know what you can demand of the crew or of yourself based on what you have with the project. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

A really great skill. Like that's what I'm proud of as a director having produced. I know when to ask for things and when not to ask for things based on what's going on. And the producers really, you know, appreciate that. Anytime you want to call me, Gary, to talk about producing, let's do it, man.

All right. Sounds good. I was just telling the story the other day about how I got a bunch of different locations for free and people were like, how the hell did you do that? And I said, well, it's a funny story. So but but, you know, it's just, you know, I've been doing a lot of writing for the past couple of years and I hope to actually enter some scripts in a slam dance this year.

Uh, you know, just to sort of get that juice back. And that's when the main reason I created this podcast was not only just to do something creative, but I get to meet all some people. And I mean, it's just been all positives, uh, you know, about this podcast and it's just, uh, you know, it's, it's just awesome, man. And, uh, uh, Gary, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on. And, uh, before we go, I just want to have one more question. That is where can people find you at online?

Thanks for having me. First of all, this conversation went really, really quickly, so I enjoyed myself a lot.

They can find me at the best place is grking.com. That's G-R-K-I-N-G.com. I believe there's links to my Facebook, to my Twitter there, and there's information to all my films where you can find them. So New York Lately, What's Up Lovely, and How Do You Write a Joe Sherman Song? You can see a little bit of information about them as well as links to Amazon Prime where you can watch them for free. And you can find out information online.

about Among Us, my latest horror movie coming out, where I would love for you guys to check out. And I appreciate the support. Gary, I want to say thank you. You have to add one link to X, the project, the working title also. Just X, a handwritten X. By the way, was X, was it a VHS tape or was it a DVD?

I'm hooked. That's it. Let's pitch this tomorrow. Right. I'll make some calls. We'll get some meetings. Seriously. Let's do it, man. Let's do it. What's stopping us? Nice. Nice. Gary R. King. I want to say thank you so much for coming on, buddy. Dave, Dave B. Thank you, sir. And hope to come back again sometime and definitely we'll be talking soon too.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 796. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.