IFH 798: From Pills to Pictures: Cynthia Hill's Unlikely Path to Documentary Filmmaking
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 798. Cinema should make you forget you're sitting in a theater. Roman Polanski.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their films. From predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who prey upon them, the odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker. The old distribution model of making money with your film is broken and there needs to be a change.

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If you want to order it, just head over to www.FilmBizBook.com. That's FilmBizBook.com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.

So on this week's episode of the podcast, my next guest is a filmmaker from North Carolina. Her TV series, A Chef's Life, is now in its fifth season. The HBO documentary, Private Violence, and PBS documentary, Tobacco, Money Feeds My Family, are just two of the credits under her belt. Her current project is an eight-part docuseries, Road to Race Day, which follows Hendrix Motorsports, the most winning team in professional stock car history, and the

And it's all going to be about this 2017 NASCAR season. And she also teamed up with Peter Berg's Film 45 to sell this thing to Complex Networks, which is unbelievable. We're going to talk all about how she did all that good stuff with guest Cynthia Hill. It's easy to access the equipment. It's not that...

that hurdle of it just being too expensive for people to access. I mean, you can shoot a film on your iPhone now. So if you really have a story to tell, you can pretty much tell it no matter what your socioeconomic situation is, which means that there are a lot more people out there telling stories. And again, it's still trying to get the stories out there that I think probably is the biggest hurdle, not necessarily making it.

But getting it out there to the masses still becomes a bit of a hurdle. Yeah, yeah, very, very true. And that's something also we touch upon in the podcast. But, you know, before you and I talk about, you know, distribution and stuff like that, which I'm actually very interested in hearing your point of view with, I wanted to ask, you know, Cynthia, how you got involved in the film industry. You know, so the question I have to start with is, did you go to film school, Cynthia? Yeah.

I did not go to film school. I went to pharmacy school. So the natural logical transition or the next path from pharmacy school is filmmaking, right? No, it's, you know, I grew up in a really remote area of Eastern North Carolina, agricultural based economy and

The thing that you would do if you went to college is you would for a woman in particular, as you would do nursing or teaching. So me even going into pharmacy school was was kind of risky and and difficult.

I really didn't know what I wanted to do, to be honest with you. I didn't have a particular calling, but I knew that the pharmacist in town made the most money or seemed to make the most money. And so I thought that at least he had one of the biggest houses. So I thought, you know, if that's

That was going to be my profession. And then when you look at the starting salaries of undergraduate degrees, especially when I was going in the late 80s, the pharmacist was number one. And so I just was ready to get out of a poor town and make some money. And so I was going to be a pharmacist.

But that was not what was in store for me. You mentioned about the link between pharmacist and filmmaker. And you know what? I can actually see it because I've known some people who've gone in the med field and they've gone right into filmmaking. I actually had a friend of mine who was a spinal surgeon. And in the morning before a surgery –

He sat at his kitchen table and he was writing a TV pilot. And basically, they were like... Yeah, it's surprising that right brain, left brain kind of thing. And the healthcare profession, I think, is more maybe artistic than we know, or at least maybe some of the folks that are in it. Maybe so, I don't know. But for me, it was definitely a strange kind of diversion when...

It happened, but I wasn't necessarily the best pharmacy student. I wasn't necessarily engaged. But, you know, I was out there. I was looking for something, and I met these folks working on this TV show. They were traveling to Chapel Hill. I went to UNC Chapel Hill. And they were doing this accident reconstruction show that was that type of show that was really popular in the early 90s. And

It just seems so fascinating and way more fascinating than being in a pharmacy counting pills all day long. So I thought, you know, I'm going to hang out with these people. And I ended up going out to L.A. because I made some good friends and spending some time in L.A. And I would just hang out with these people. And storytelling was not necessarily something that I thought that I was good at because I was not a good writer. But if you're in the South...

storytelling is just ingrained in you because you hear your grandmama, your granddaddy, everybody tells stories. And so you're just, it's just a part of who you are. And so I had this knack for telling stories that I did not know was there because I was just driven into math and science because I was obviously good at those things. And I, um, I found this whole world that really was intriguing and, um,

came back to pharmacy school the next year and for every project I could possibly do papers presentations I would make videos for it instead of actually doing the thing I was supposed to do and for my rotation when I was working in different locations like I had a retail rotation and instead of doing a paper which you were supposed to do I made two commercials for the pharmacy for local cable so I found

my niche in pharmacy school in this really strange sort of way and the dean of the pharmacy school pulled me aside and was like, Cynthia, you're not exactly...

the best pharmacy student, but you got something. You got some talent here and I want to try to help you. And so he encouraged me to go to graduate school at Auburn University in the pharmacy administration department, which sounds like another kind of strange thing. But they had a production studio in the graduate school.

And any communications department would have salivated at the equipment that we had access to. But because we had access to pharmaceutical money, we had all this equipment and they were doing this health education media. And they were one of the first schools, especially a pharmacy school, that was getting into interactive health care. And.

And so I found a surprising home there and another sort of entree into deeper into the television world. And I did this study with Primetime Live in New York City where we, as the pharmacy school, took the study component of medication dispensing errors and we helped Primetime Live do an undercover study.

report on pharmacists making dispensing mistakes. And so I flew up to New York and spent a lot of time up there. And I became the undercover shopper because I could control the medication. And I became a part of that study. And then after that, I was just really completely just spoiled. I was not going to end up in a pharmacy counting pills after that. So yeah,

Then I had to figure out how to become a filmmaker. I was going to ask you when you were the mystery shopper if you had like a hidden camera somewhere or something.

I had somebody that was behind me with a camera. I was mic'd, and then my companion had a camera in his wig or in his hat, depending on what setup we were using that day. So it was this little girl from this rural town in eastern North Carolina was not in eastern North Carolina anymore. It was rather funny. Yeah.

I imagine there's hard copy or there's 2020 things where they would have those hidden cameras. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Well,

Well, it had a big pack, so he had a backpack, but the lens, like he was able to bring it up into his wig or his hat, so it was easier to hide. But it was definitely a much larger rig than what you would find today. Yeah.

So, and you know, that's where I imagined it. There had to be a lot of like creativity, a lot of ingenuity to hide that, you know what I mean? So, uh, yeah, for sure. So when you were talking about storytelling, I mean, just to sort of take a step back, I mean, you were talking about growing up and in the South and, and you, uh, and you were, you heard stories from, you know, your, your grandmother, what was some of the things that you like really stuck out with you? Like in terms of story, I mean,

was it maybe how the person was telling it or maybe was it some of the characters involved? I mean, because I imagine a lot of that is what really sort of molded your way of storytelling for when you make your own projects. Yeah, definitely. There are a lot of characters in the South, so I gravitate to eccentric personalities, I think, too. That's one thing that being in the South, you're never short of somebody who's

really interesting. You know, they're all around you. And, um,

I think, too, my grandma's brother, Uncle James, he was always good for stories. And they're always long and elaborate. And I think I maybe inherited a bit of that. And it takes you a while to get to the point. But they're always really good stories. And I have sort of this problem of ending stories. My first film that I made...

One of my favorite compliments, I guess you could say, is from D.A. Pennebaker. He said he was using it in his classroom. But he's like, it's a really good film with all of its three endings. So it's like, yeah, I know what you're saying.

So actually ending something is difficult for me, you know, wrapping it up and coming to a close, you know, because there's always something else you can say that, you know, helps make your point. So trying to get it all in there has been a challenge for me and something that has taken me a while to do.

to perfect, which I still haven't, but being able to concisely tell a story without rambling on is a bit difficult for southerners. No, no, I think that's fine, Cynthia. I mean, did you see Lord of the Rings Return of the King?

I mean, that had a lot, that had like seven different endings, you know, that just, no, I remember being with my endings, my multiple endings. I remember being in the theater with that movie and people were like, Oh, is that it? Oh no, there's more. And then they kept getting up and down. I was like, that was like either this, either, either there was something, this was a unique way of storytelling or, or Peter Jackson was just trolling everybody. Uh, you know, but, uh,

But, you know, where he is in his career, I mean, he can keep going if he's got something else to say. So I think that that's kind of it, too. You know, you have the luxury at a certain point where, you know, you can keep telling the story you want to tell. But I didn't with my first film, even though I thought I did. Yeah.

yeah yeah and I want to you know get into into talking about all your films too and I just want to touch one more thing about storytelling you know I because I love hearing like all the different unique point of views everything about storytelling and you know there was a movie that was out recently I didn't see I think was maybe out a year or two ago called blue ruin and the tagline really stuck out to me because I think it was it was something along the lines of a southern revenge tale or the southern gothic revenge tale and

And I sort of kind of stuck with me because I started to see a couple of the articles about how the Southern Revenge tale is kind of different. And basically...

you know, as we tell stories, you know, you tell me a story, I tell you a story. There's all different components to them. And usually a story is to reveal a transformation. You know, usually there's something inside of the society, of the culture, of ideals that they hold true or ideals that they really value. So, you know, and it's different too because

For people, I have a lot of listeners who aren't from America, and they still don't understand America's huge. I mean, this country is absolutely huge, and we have so many different regions. You have the East Coast, you have the West Coast, you have the Midwest, you have the Northeast, you have the South. And I mean, all of these different ways of telling stories and all these unique points of view.

So, you know, Cynthia, when you take your movies out, do you notice that, you know, you tell the different do you notice that maybe your stories have that that sort of like unique vantage point? But it's something that sort of there's like a parallel that can be drawn through all through all different types of regions and stuff like that.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've never really looked at it that way. I do feel very much like it is Southern. But what does Southern mean? You know, I think for me, and when it comes to storytelling, it's about character. It's about character. And it's also about the small moments.

And, you know, I when I am in the field, not in working in the documentary medium, it's, you know, I don't necessarily have a set agenda. You know, you go out to if you've got something that you're making a film about a certain topic or whatever, you've got some agenda. You kind of know what world you're entering. But I like to be.

fluid and wait for things to happen and for characters to reveal themselves and moments that let the characters become human just happen and unfold. And so I spend a lot of time with nothing happening, waiting for those moments to happen. And a lot of what I say, especially when I work with new editors, is that what ends up on the screen with me a lot of the times are things that other people

I feel like other filmmakers or maybe other editors, especially like in older kinds of TV doc formats where that stuff would end up on the editing room floor typically. But I like those moments that are subtle that take the audience away.

a little bit more time, you've got to pay closer attention to them and those things that are going to build so that by the time I make my point, I have teased it out a long time. And so that it becomes even more meaningful to the audience by the time you see that revealed. And so, yeah.

That's what I'm doing when I'm in the field a lot is just waiting for those moments. And when you're with me and I work with new folks in the field, they think I'm not doing anything because I look like I'm not doing anything. But I'm listening and I'm paying close attention and waiting for that moment. And usually that moment happens when everybody kind of lets their guard down or maybe, you know,

the moment after another moment is usually the moment that I'm after. So it's kind of, it's hard to explain, but when you add all those things together, it just really helps with, you know, it helps with the really building who those characters are that you're with and those narratives because those small moments, I feel like are really the important things that are happening.

Oh, and I see exactly what you mean, too. It's like a slow burn, you know, rather than sort of like the fast paced sort of MTV style of sort of editing or, you know, and honestly, I've seen, you know, that that's good to have because I don't ever want to see where filmmaking or anything becomes homogenized, where everybody shoots and edits and etc. the same way. And, you know, just...

Just as we get started, you're talking about your career, Cynthia, you mentioned how do you go from pharmacist to filmmaker? So, you know, what was what was the step that you took? So that way you said, look, I'm not going to do pharmacy tech work anymore. I'm going to do filmmaking full time. So, you know, what was that step that you took?

Well, until this year, I still was employed by Walmart as a pharmacist. So I was canned unceremoniously as of late. I'd only worked two days. So it was it was coming. But it's.

And just not that I have it. I apologize up front. I have a tendency to answer the question that I want to answer. So I'm going to backstep just a little bit. Pharmacy, to me, gave me permission to experiment. It gave me that solid foundation and that financial security that I needed to take risks. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

And now back to the show. And so I knew I could always go and work as a pharmacist.

So it allowed me to not go and have to work on other people's projects if I didn't want to. I wasn't out there using that creative side of my brain to do ad work or do something that wasn't coming from inside of me in that medium. So I could devote all of that energy to working on what I wanted to work on. So that's what I've always done. And it's been really...

great for me because I have a very distinctive style and you would you know when you see something that I work on but the downfall is that I do create my stuff kind of in a vacuum and I don't have a lot of mentors and stuff like that because I've never worked for anybody else I've always just done what I wanted to do

But when I first started out, you know, I had this one story that was burning inside of me that I knew I had to tell. And that was the story of tobacco farming. And growing up in the South and in this region of the country, tobacco was the one crop that small farmers and families could rely on. And yes, it kills people, but it also sent a lot of us to college and created a world

opportunities that would not have otherwise existed and also kept small farms intact in the South when it was no longer possible or viable with other commodities. So I had this strange relationship with this crop that kills people, but it also is something that I had a lot of

fondness for. You know, it was a lot of memories with the family working. And it was very much a family kind of business and operation where we would, we would help each other, you know, harvest the crop every summer. And that's what I did up until I went to college. And so I knew that that was a story I wanted to tell because I could see the demise of that small family farm.

happening in front of my eyes and I had to tell that story and so when I first started out it was like I'm just going to tell this story I didn't consider myself an artist or a filmmaker I just knew I was going to do that so I was going to raise ten thousand dollars and film for one season and that was going to be my film and

But instead I filmed for over three years and raised over $100,000 and it took me another two years to edit the film to make my first film. And I still couldn't call myself a filmmaker after that. I didn't have enough confidence in myself.

That began my path. Each time I start a film, I swear I'm going to make it in less than five years, but I still have a hard time making a film in less than five years. Maybe one day. Yeah.

Well, so let me ask you, Cynthia, when you decided to raise that money, you know, that that's sort of like the million dollar question. No pun intended for a lot of filmmakers is they always say, you know, what steps do you go to to raise funds? Some people say it's crowdfunding. Some people say it's private equity. So, you know, what what methods did you use to sort of, you know, raise these funds to help make your documentary? Yeah, for this one, it was all foundation.

And the first two grant proposals I sent out were funded, which is completely 100 percent unheard of. I had already shot some, so I had something to show, you know, so I was I was able to show proof of concept and what I was trying to do.

But if I had not have had that kind of success out of the gate, I probably wouldn't have continued because it would have been just too depressing. But then after those first two, I probably the probably the next 25 were not funded. So, you know, it was really one of those things where it's it's.

So difficult. And there's no magic answer to it. You know, there's one of those if it's a social issue film, you know, you can try the foundation route. If it's you know, you can try the crowdfunding route. And I've done that twice now and I never want to do that again. It says it's a special kind of torture, crowdfunding, or at least the process of actually during the campaign itself.

And then it's even more torture when you have to fulfill all this bullshit that you promised people during your crowdfunding campaign. You actually have to make good on all these promises. So it's really, you know, there's no magic answer. The equity thing, I still have.

hard time with that. I've had this one really amazing woman who's been trying to give me money for this project that I'm currently working on. And I don't, I don't, I don't know how I feel about that. Because, you know, once you have somebody that's invested in you, then it's like, you feel like you got to make money. And two, you feel like you got somebody looking over your shoulder. And so I'm contemplating that now, you

In my career that I need to be able to do that. You know, this last project that we're the I have a development deal with HBO and some development money from Sundance for it. But I need to be able to.

have some additional funds in place before I can go back to try to show what the project really is. And so what do I do in the meantime? Because it's not really a social issue film that I can go out and do the foundation route again. So I'm sitting here thinking I really need to call that lady back and take her money. Yeah.

It's hard. Yeah, it is. This whole legal thing with, you know, sailing securities, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, yeah, it's, you know, I feel like I've got to grow up and, you know, this is my business now. This is how I make a living. I am to that point where I actually can say that.

And I have a lot of folks that now work with me or for me. And, you know, I've got to also be mindful of their their well-being, too, not just my own.

Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, you know, that's something we talk a lot about on this podcast is, you know, the whole legal aspect of taking people's money, you know, private equity, crowdfunding, all those different routes. And, you know, and I've heard everything from, hey, we did it for free by I mean, that's what I did, too. You know, I didn't go to film school. My first student film was me making a feature film and we borrowed every set, everything. Everything was all borrowed.

Uh, you know, don't, you know, a friend of mine had a house we could shoot in and we've had that all the way to, you know, very expensive movies on here. So, you know, it's just always interesting to hear, you know, everything, uh, you know, all those two extremes and everything in between. And, you know, as we talk more, you know, about, you know, making documentaries and everything else, you know,

making it into a living is something special, Cynthia, because, you know, that, that takes a lot of hard work. It takes a lot of talent. It takes a lot of patience, you know, and a lot of times, you know, you know, filmmakers maybe make one film or two and they get kind of burned out from the whole process. Well, that's, it's true. And I think I'm struggling with that right now. You know, is it a business or is it still a passion? You know, so trying to straddle, you know,

still wanting to do this work because it's something that, you know, burns inside of me versus like just making content because I've got a lot of mouths to feed and I don't want to be in that place, you know, and it's new for me to manage people, you know, cause I,

I have finally accepted that I'm an artist that comes with artist tendencies, which means that I'm not great at necessarily managing people. And so, but you know, when you have this kind of, um, operation where we have right now, where this past year we produced an eight part series that were hour long, um,

hour each was an hour long so eight hours of that and then another 10 part half hour series we're producing a lot of content and it takes a lot of people to pull that off and you know we're doing this in a part of the country that doesn't have the infrastructure and you know the the depth of talent and stuff so you know we're we're training our own where we're um

making it work even when the odds are completely against us. And that in and of itself to me is something that I'm really proud of and proud of the team that we have in place for that. But then how do you keep that going? You know, how much of inside of me has to come out to keep that, that those creative juices going? Cause so far that, um,

Those stories are all coming from me, you know, like just the creative part of it, you know, putting it together. And that is really that's hard to keep that going and to fill that burden of that. And then, like, is that really what I want to do moving forward? Or do I want to, like, quit all that and go back and, you know, make a narrative film, which I've been doing?

contemplating for a long time. So, you know, it's, I'm struggling a bit. I don't know if it's midlife bullshit mess, but we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Yeah. You, you know, you, the success is great, but it's also like, is this really what I want? And are we, are we happy? Yeah.

Lord, I'm in therapy. Yeah, this podcast is like therapy for a lot of people, myself included. But no, I'm just joking, Cynthia. But no, this is what it is. It's a discussion. And that's some of the things that we discuss in this podcast is stuff you don't hear any other place. And what I mean by that is

Things that affect filmmakers, things that they go through, stuff like that. Too many podcasts, too many articles, they paint either a rosy picture or they paint this very bleak picture. And it's not really one or the other. It's usually in between. The ones that paint the rosy picture are like, oh, yeah, I submitted to Sundance and we won $10 billion and we're all rich now. And the bleak picture is like, oh, I tried to submit to Sundance.

That's all bullshit. I couldn't get any other film festival. Those were all bullshit. And I threw up on YouTube and nobody watched it. And now I'm, you know, a hundred grand in the hole and I hate my life. And, you know, so it's kind of like, you know, trying to find this happy medium. Cause I believe me, I, you know, when I started doing this, even before I started doing this podcast, I met so many different people in,

doing so many different things on so many different film sets and I heard so many different stories about successes and failures successes and failures and that's why I wanted to do this podcast you know because It's I've noticed a common thread among a lot of filmmakers. That's why I started this podcast So you know when you made your tobacco documentary about you know, obviously it's focused on the south you know, but you kept going and you turned into other projects and

So after the documentary aired and was completed, what was your next step in continuing your filmography? Well, I was helping work on another film at the same time, some other filmmakers here in Durham. And so that was February 1, which was about the Greensboro lunch camera sit-in. So I was able to see a little bit about what...

else could be opportunities and then this story came along as I was finishing up the tobacco film that was about the farm workers that were coming from Mexico and Dave can we start that over again because I feel like the February 1 thing is kind of like left field sure absolutely yeah I'll just tell about the tobacco I mean ask me the question again sure sure no problem

So, you know, you kept on going. So, you know, after you made your tobacco documentary, you know, what was the next step you made to continue your filmography? Well, when I was finishing up Tobacco Money Feeds My Family, one of the farmers that I had been profiling was getting farm workers from Mexico in this guest worker program.

And he got farm workers that were being bused directly from Mexico to

straight to his farm. They would open the door from the bus and they would get out on his farm in North Carolina. And I was like, whoa, what the hell is that? When I was growing up, I remember when we had the first Mexicans that showed up in our community to harvest cucumbers. And that was the

The first time we locked our doors because the Mexicans were in town. And so there's this thing with we don't want foreigners in our communities doing our work is taking our work and

But then we are actively busing folks in to do the work that we don't want to do. And I thought, oh, my goodness, this is so fascinating. And so then I spent the next week.

two years filming a story of these farm workers that were coming from Mexico in this guest worker program. I was able to find a farm in North Carolina that would let me film and that in and of itself was a huge hurdle because there was so much suspicion about this program and folks trying to do this gotcha kind of filmmaking at the time and still to this day.

And so getting a farmer comfortable with us being there to do a story about farm workers was really – was not an easy feat. But when we finally latched on to this one guy who was willing to do – willing to let us stay on his farm, it was –

It's so eye-opening to spend a whole season with this one farm worker. Well, several, but we ended up going back home with two of them. And we took that bus ride back home to Mexico on bus after bus to the back of a pickup truck to get to his home back in his village in Durango, Mexico. And it's not that...

especially for this guest worker program, they're not trying to move to the U.S. They were here to make money to bring back home. And I'd always hear these things about the excuses for the horrible living conditions that the farm workers had to live in, about how so much better than what they got back in Mexico and how we're doing them such a favor. But then when we got back to his home in Mexico...

He lived in this beautiful villa that it was very modest, but had a lot of outdoor space and it was on the side. You could see his cows off in the horizon. And I was just like, these are people who want to support their family, just like these farmers want to support their families. And it was important for me to

after telling the farmer's story to also tell that farm worker story. And I couldn't not do that. You know, I felt like it was a disservice just to tell the farmer's story without completing that, that story. So that was my second film. So, so when, when you released that, that film, uh, you sort of back to back with, you know, you told the farmers, you know, uh, the farmer's story, you tell the, the worker's story, you know, how was that? Did that change any perceptions?

You hope that it does. I mean, I think that the folks that saw it, you know, that's really the key is like getting folks to watch stuff. And I think one of the main accomplishments for me with that film was that we had this one screening where we had farm workers and farmers in the room at the same time watching the film at the same time. And it was kind of funny. Like there would be moments where,

They would laugh at the same things and they could see the humanity in each other. And to me, that's what it was about, you know, trying to bridge that gap. And I feel like I do that quite a bit is trying to bridge that gap of understanding. And, you know, I'm not...

I don't consider myself an activist filmmaker per se, but I do tend to tackle topics that are important. At least I like to, but I like to do it with story and really about understanding the human condition and really getting into characters and understanding the plight and trying to walk in their shoes for a little bit.

And I think that's something that, you know, a lot of filmmakers have sort of missed, not only filmmakers, but we, you know, producers and TV show owners. And, you know, you tune in because you want to see characters, you know, you see these characters in these sort of predicaments. And in, you know, a couple episodes ago, I interviewed Ronda Shearer and Ronda Shearer was, you know, on the host of USA's Up All Night. And, you know, something I spoke to her about was to into, in today's sort of, uh,

you know, entertainment environment. A lot of the people, when they start putting money into things, whether it be a TV show, you know, everything becomes very mechanical. Now everything has an algorithm. Oh, well, Hey, you know what? You say this script and don't deviate from the script. And I think it really takes away a lot of character. And it's more about like situations, if you know what I mean.

So, and I think with documentaries, especially you have to have those characters. And I just wanted to touch on that topic because it's so important anymore. You know, just finding films that have characters in them that, you know, people can relate to. Yeah, I think that's, that's important. You know, you can have somebody telling you all day long that about this person's plight, or you can interview them about their, their own plight and they can tell you certain things. But if,

If you're with them and you experience it with them, I think that's a whole other level of understanding. And that to me was what was important about making the guest worker film was that I did not understand it. I drive by a field and I see people picking my produce, but I go to the grocery store and I buy it. And I'm not really thinking about them when I'm going to Whole Foods and buying my $5 piece of lettuce.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. You know, so it was important for me to give them not just the face, but to also...

Tell part of their story and let them tell their own story, not through interview, but to witness it with them, to be a true witness of that experience. And that's the kind of filmmaking that I like. It's what I like to watch. Heavily interview-driven kinds of films don't usually...

do it for me every now and then I'll see one. I'm like, okay, I take it back. I'm okay with interviews. But typically that's not what I want. I have this thing where I say, show me, don't tell me. You can tell me all day long, but if I see it and I feel it and I'm witnessing it, it's going to have so much more impact on me. And I feel like that's what it is for an audience too. Yeah.

Yeah, you're experiencing with it. I really like that because, you know, again, you know, when people try to sort of force the issue or even make, you know, these sit down interview TV shows or movies.

They're taking away the character. They're sort of just trying to sort of make everything happen, you know, along these sort of beats. And again, you know, that's why... Yeah, you know, that's why...

See my subtle hints at what the issue is. So I think that there's room for both kinds of storytelling. It just is I prefer the kind that doesn't beat you over the head. I prefer the kind that takes me on a journey and lets me decide for myself.

And that's the kind of filmmaking I want to do is I want to take the viewer on a journey and let them decide for themselves. Obviously, I have a point of view. And so as I am laying out the scenes and showing the audience the moments that I choose, I am, you know, obviously have a certain point of view that they're watching. But I do try to be very subtle in it, you know, even if it's issue oriented. And

And let the viewer decide for themselves. Because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about half the time. I noticed on the clock we're starting to get a little pressed for time. So I wanted to make sure I asked you about one project, which is actually how we started talking, which is your actual eight-part series on NASCAR Motorsports. So I wanted to ask you, how did you get involved with the project?

Well, I have this short list of Southern things that I would love to one day be able to film. You know, it's, I try to,

to stay in my region, even if it's not necessarily Southern, like my filmmaking, I feel like my backyard is just as interesting as getting on a plane and going somewhere else. So also I feel like I have permission to film what's here too. You know, I don't feel like I'm an interloper and, and going in and trying to tell somebody else's story. So, you know, I try to stay based here in the South. And so NASCAR has been on that list of things that I would love to do. And

And for no other reason that it's something that I grew up with. It was very much a part of my family. My granddad was a huge Richard Petty fan. And so every Sunday we're watching a race, whether we wanted to or not.

And so I, you know, I wasn't a NASCAR fan growing when I got, when I became an adult, but it still fascinated me. And also how people from outside of the South perceived it and perceived the fan base and the sport itself. Like it's not really a sport. And there's lots of things people say about stock car racing. And so if you're going to, you know, I like to mire myself in sports.

stuff that has a bit of controversy, I feel like sometimes, and this was kind of one of those things, but I wasn't in it for the controversy. I just was wanting just to see that world from the inside. And we just had the opportunity to approach Hendrick Motorsports with the idea of coming in and doing, you know, an inside look at it. And, um,

They are really the giants in the sport. You know, they have driving for them, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Jimmy Johnson, who just won the championship last year, Casey Kane, and also Chase Elliott, who's Bill Elliott's son. And he was getting into Jeff Gordon's car because Jeff Gordon had just retired. And so

We wanted to enter the world with Chase because he was new to the team and he just turned 20. And we thought it would be a really interesting perspective starting the series with a newbie and especially one with that kind of pedigree.

And surprisingly, Hendrick agreed. And after the fact, I found out that they get pitched a lot and never say yes. So I feel really honored that they said yes. But I think it was because I'm from the South.

My ideas of what I wanted to do and what I wanted to tell were, you know, not any kind of, again, gotcha thing. I just wanted to just go in. I wanted to embed my team into their team and really see what it was like to be, you know, in NASCAR and, you know, race every weekend.

So, I mean, that's what we did. We filmed with them for six months and we filmed with all the drivers, not just Chase. They opened the doors and said, hey, you want to film these other drivers too? And we're like, oh, yeah. So it was an amazing experience. You know, the unfortunate thing is my ears are still ringing because it's so loud. But it was...

I hate this word and I hate to even say it, but it was truly unprecedented. The access that they gave us, you know, they, they allowed us inside their facilities. NASCAR allowed us the film at the racetracks with basically what we, not really telling us, you know, don't go there, don't go there. And there are a few places we couldn't go, but really we had access.

The access that I didn't know that we could have, and we had an amazing working relationship with NASCAR and NASCAR Productions where we knew that we would be able to get...

access to the race footage. So we weren't always focused on trying to film the race, but we were, you know, we were turning, we would focus on the teams so that we could really see what the inner workings are like. And when something happens on the track, what's the reaction of the team and what's the buildup to, to the race. And so, um,

The races were important, but they just became more of a dramatic narrative tool for me to be able to understand the pressure. So the outcome of the race was less important because we're not doing race coverage, not sports coverage, TV. We're really telling stories about people. And that's what we do. And so...

We focused on, again, on the characters and those small moments. And I think what we were able to accomplish is pretty unique, especially for that sport. I don't think you ever see it really presented that way.

Yeah, I was going to ask, too, if they actually got pitched a lot, because I can imagine the answer would have been yes. You know, just because, you know, whenever you're in that position, whenever you're like the leader or, you know, you're involved in the A-level, you know, kind of like, you know, how in the NFL, every team just gets pitched.

pitched unbelievably amount, you know, Hey, do the, you know, could we do a documentary? Hey, could we do this? You know, Hey, could you help out this charity? So that's why, you know, I think you did have that unique sort of way to, to sort of get your foot in the door by saying I'm from the South and, you know, and I'm sure they wanted to see your other two, your other documentaries before they said yes, you know? Yeah. And it was really nice. We got to the meeting and the head of the marketing team,

Uh, he had already seen my last film that was on HBO and was a huge fan of the television series that I direct called a chef's life. And so, uh,

he already knew my style and he saw how our team operated and felt really comfortable with what we were presenting and the ideas that we came to the table. And he, he, he knew that what I said when I was in that meeting was true, you know, that I was not, you know, I wasn't trying to get in to do another kind of story because the body of work that we came in with showed what we were trying to do. And, um,

you know, it did open those doors. And so it does prove that eventually things do get a little easier. Other things don't, but that door opening definitely was much easier than I had anticipated. And that was nice. You know, that came at a time in my career where, you know, I've been making films for 20 years now. And so it's nice to finally say, hey, you know, it does work out sometimes. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, you know, you're, it did get easier because, you know, people can, you start to build a portfolio and you start to build a reputation. And, and I think, and that is key, you know, something I always say here on the podcast is your net worth is your network. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show or your network is your net worth. And basically, you know, you were able to open those doors because of your network and

And it's all about being professional, doing good work, not being crazy, not being – because sometimes people get their foot in the door and they shoot themselves in the foot. It's almost comical because a lot of filmmakers, they get themselves in the door and they just start shooting.

you know, immediately start making all these mistakes. And, you know, it just, it really compounds, you know, and that's why you really want to make sure. Cause I mean, now after you've done this, I mean, it's like, you know, Hey, Hey Cynthia, what was your last project? Oh, Hey, I worked with Hendrick motorsports and you know, we did this and this and this. And, you know, I mean that, that's just,

That's huge. That's absolutely huge.

Downside to being in North Carolina is that my network is not extensive. I joke that I have a lot of pig farmers in my network, which they're really important and I appreciate them. But it's difficult because we are here. But the benefits are that I do have an extensive network here and the folks here do trust me.

do trust me and, um, and trust the team that we have in place. And so when we show up, that does mean a lot.

Yeah. And, you know, again, you, you, you never know what door is going to open, you know? And, and again, I, I like how you, you know, you mentioned again where you were because, you know, every, everything's different. Again, everything has changed, which sort of, you know, brings us back to full circle, which I was, which was what, you know, we open up the podcast with, you can be a filmmaker now, you know, across America and it's, it's opened a lot of doors. Cynthia, I know we've, we've actually just run out of time. So where can people find you out online, Cynthia? Yeah.

You mean me or just, um, like my company name is Markay Media, M-A-R-K-A-Y media.com. And the Road to Race Day, which is the NASCAR series was just released on the complex next complex networks platform Go90. And so it's currently streaming the next, the last episode is premiering tomorrow. So all, all the episodes will be up after tomorrow. Um,

And my other films are somewhat harder to find. Private Violence, which was the last film with HBO. That one I think you can find on Amazon and Hulu. And A Chef's Life is on PBS. Season five is premiering in October. So that one's still going strong.

Yeah. So we got to talk in Cynthia and we ran out of time with, uh, cause I was going to talk, I had notes to talk about, uh, you know, uh, all of your, all of your work. And, you know, we just, you know, one of those things ran out of time, but, uh, but I'm going to link to everything in the show notes, everyone, uh, at Dave Bullis.com Twitter. It's at Dave underscore Bullis. And I'm going to link to all of Cynthia's social media as well. So you could follow her and see all of the really cool stuff that she's up to.

Thanks, Dave. I really appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure, Cynthia. And if you ever want to come back sometime, we can talk more about your next projects and the other projects we didn't get a chance to talk about. Let me know. And I'd love to have you back on. Happy to. It's fun. It is kind of like therapy. And maybe just listen to that because I have a tendency not to be PC. So maybe listen to the guest worker stuff just to make sure I didn't –

say something too offensive because sometimes I say things that I don't know are offensive and they become offensive without me knowing it. So. Nah, it's all good, Cynthia. Everything's offensive nowadays. That's true. It is true. It can be. Um, but you know, I think it's like for me, it's, it's, you know, I, I, we,

we work really hard to be inclusive and the team I have in place, you know, we've, we've built a diverse team and, um, you know, we work with a lot of women too. And so we, we spend a lot of time trying to tell stories that have meaning and beyond just, you know, the meaning of my demographic. So we try. Yeah.

No, and I think you do very well. And I honestly and that's why I wanted to have you on this podcast. And again, I want to link to everything of yours in the show notes. And, you know, people can check out your work. And, you know, I want to see and obviously I hope you continue to move forward with this and you continue to build that filmography.

Thank you. I appreciate it. I hope so. Hopefully I won't burn out. Don't go back to pharmacy. That's the message of this whole podcast is don't go back to pharmacy. I don't know if I can anymore. I lost my job. That's all right. I needed it. I needed that kick in the butt. Yeah, exactly right. It's like the old Roman army. When they got to a new country, they'd burn their boats. Yeah, this is it. You got to – yeah, there's no –

Yeah, we're swimming. Cynthia Hill, I want to say thank you so much for coming on and I do wish you the best of luck. Thank you. Thanks so much, Dave.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 798. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.