IFH 799: What Every Indie Filmmaker Can Learn from a $5K Zombie Movie with Bojan Dulabic
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 799. Cinema should make you forget you're sitting in a theater. Roman Polanski.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their films. From predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who prey upon them, the odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker. The old distribution model of making money with your film is broken and there needs to be a change.

The future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker or the filmtrepreneur. In Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, I break down how to actually make money with your film projects and show you how to turn your indie film into a profitable business. With case studies examining successes and failures,

This book shows you the step-by-step method to turn your passion into a profitable career. If you're making a feature film, series, or any other kind of video content, the Filmtrepreneur Method will set you up for success. The book is available in paperback, e-book, and of course, audiobook.

If you want to order it, just head over to www.FilmBizBook.com. That's FilmBizBook.com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Boulis. Joining me today is Bojan Dulubic. Bojan is a Vancouver filmmaker, and he just released the zombie feature film Project Eugenics. Bojan, how are you, sir? Good, good. Thank you for having me, my friend.

Oh, it's my pleasure. You know, we met through Jason Brubaker's site. I ended up meeting so many people because of Jason. I should really give him a producer credit for this podcast. He's a great resource, man. I've written a few articles for his blog. And yeah, he's a great guy. Great guy. Yeah. And the article that got us introduced, so to speak, was the article he wrote called How I Made a Zombie Film for $5,000. Wow.

And at first when I saw that, you know, I thought Jason may have wrote that. And I was like, wow, Jason made another zombie film. And I said, oh, wait, it's this guy, Bullion. He just wrote it. I started to learn more about you. So, you know, that's what we're going to talk about on this podcast is, you know, I'm sure a lot of people probably saw that and was thinking, my God, how do you make a zombie film for $5,000? Let alone a feature zombie film, you know, $5,000. So Bullion, get started. You know, how did you get into the film industry? Me? Yeah. Oh man, that goes back a long time. Yeah.

You know how every filmmaker has a story. You know, when I was seven, my daddy bought me a camera and I started filming. And I started to think about that. How did it actually happen with me? And I realized it actually goes as far back as when I was five years old. I'm originally from Bosnia.

which is in Eastern Europe. And my mom actually had her own store. And in there, she also had a video store at the time. And so obviously, you know, I was, I think I was around five. I started watching movies and it was all Hollywood movies and I loved it. Right.

And so in 1990, there was a war in Bosnia and we moved to Germany, lived there as refugees. And I just, you know, I just love movies. But not just movies. I mean, I think every kid loves movies. I love to watch making off, you know, and, you know, back then we're talking early 90s. There was no Internet. There was no YouTube. You know, so finding out how movies were made was not that easy. So luckily there was some shows I would watch as much as I could.

And then in 1998, we moved to Croatia because I'm Croatian from Bosnia. So we moved there and we lived there for three years and then we moved to Canada. And it was in Canada in high school, Winnipeg, city of Winnipeg, where I really developed an interest for acting and for filmmaking. And it was in grade 10.

And yeah, I just loved it. I started with simple slide shows and I did my first short film in, I think it was my grade 12 class, English class. It was a creative project. And I was like, man, I don't feel like doing another paper. And I was like, hey man, can I make a movie? And my teacher was like, sure, why not? And so I did. And that was really when I started doing it and got more and more into it. Then I started doing videography and

for actually my my the school division that my high school was part of, because at that time they they saw some of my stuff that I was doing. And because for whatever project school project that, you know, if I could do a video about it, I would, you know. And so my teachers kind of, you know, gotten to know my my filmmaking abilities and all that stuff.

And so it started there and then I went to the University of Winnipeg studying theater. I didn't take any film courses or anything. Everything when it comes to filmmaking was pretty much self-taught, you know, by making a lot of mistakes, you know. Yeah. And, you know, how it goes. And then in 2007, I moved to Vancouver where I am now to, you know, pursue acting and filmmaking. So, yeah.

Yeah, and you know, just kept doing short films, you know, my YouTube channel, web shows, you know, that kind of stuff. And then in 2012, I finally decided, okay, I'm going to make my first feature, which was a comedy at the time. And that one I actually made for $4,000. It was even less. But it was a lot simpler. It was set mostly in one location and, you know, talking heads kind of comedy.

And yeah, when that one was done, because I'm a zombie nerd and sci-fi and horror geek, I was like, "Okay, you know what? I think I can do this." Initially, my goal was to make this movie for $3,000, but I realized, okay, I'm pushing it with five, but with three, that's just ridiculous.

So, yeah, then, you know, in when was it? Early 20, late 2013, early 2014, around there, I had this idea for, you know, the zombie flick and started writing. And by the summer or what was it? Yeah, by late summer of 2014, I had my first draft and then I started, you know,

Started thinking about casting and all that. Started casting in October-ish of 2014. And November 1st, we started shooting. So it was very quick process.

process and you know, then editing took longer, but also if you want to add one more crazy element to the mix, I also got married three months ago. So yeah, exactly. So, you know, obviously, you know, that's important. And in many ways, that's more important than the movie, you know, but I'm a filmmaker. So, you know, we're crazy people.

So, yeah, I managed to, you know, make all that work. And, you know, I have an amazing wife who just I can't thank her enough for, you know, putting up with me. Yeah.

Yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. You know, that was pretty quick from, you know, having that initial idea to actually getting, you know, start shooting the film. And, you know, if there's one thing you do need when making a film, it's another crazy element to work against you. Right. Yeah. So how long did it take you to actually write the script then from, you know, from concept to actually writing a full page screenplay?

I would say it took about, until I had my first draft, I'd say about seven months, six, seven months around there. Once I had the first draft, the rest was very relatively quick.

But, you know, getting it up there to the first draft. Yeah, I'd say about that around there. So when you were writing the screenplay, did you try to like immerse yourself in a zombie films? Some of the other guests I've had on the show, one of the things that I've noticed is whatever their theme or genre they're writing for.

all they will watch and read about is just that one thing. So I imagine if you use that method, all you were watching were zombie films. Now, did you follow that method? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, as my wife will testify, because she hates horror, it was, yes, I do the exact same thing. I mean, I, you know, I bought a book about zombies and I, you know, rewatch pretty much every zombie movie ever.

I have and whatever else is on Netflix and out there.

Because you have to. I mean, you really have to. I mean, to me, a zombie flick, a good zombie flick, it's never it's not about the zombies. Right. It's always about something else. And then obviously use the zombies to tell a story. So they're more a storytelling device. So to me, it was really the main thing was, OK, what is this movie about? Figuring out what's my angle? You know what? Because I mean.

zombie movies have been done to death, obviously. And we all love it, but there's one every week coming out. So what can I offer that's a little unique, that's a little outside the box? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So that was my main thing as I was watching, like I said, all these zombie flicks and reading and all that.

um and uh once i had that you know um idea and uh once i figured that out then the rest was a lot easier you know still wasn't easy but it was easier you know yeah yeah i know exactly what you mean and you're right though uh you know there is seemingly a new zombie film coming out every week um you know i was just talking about it to my one friend and um you know he's not in the film industry but

He watches a ton of films and he's like, you know what? I'm so sick of zombies. He's like, Dave, I don't want to watch any zombie films. I ended up trying to talk him into watching a zombie film after that. And one of the things that I've, you know, as producing movies, I've noticed is, is that they always ask, you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know, if you're pitching to somebody, you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know, what is our unique selling position?

And that's something that you've kind of hit on there because you have to make it – what's going to be unique about your film? Anyone listening to this, I'm not even talking about making a zombie film. I'm talking about making any film. How are you going to make it unique so it stands out from the crowd?

And, you know, obviously, you know, Bojan, one of the things you did was, you know, you put your own style into it. You know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, you know, actually, why don't I just ask you? So what are some of the things that you wanted to make sure you got in there that made it sort of your style, made it your movie that you could help stand out? Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean –

You know, growing up the way I did, you know, moving around a lot and, you know, being part of different cultures and all that stuff was great on one hand because it really gave me insight into just humanity, right? I mean, just understanding how the world works, right? But on the other hand, it also made me the constant outsider, you know? I mean, as much as I tried to fit in,

You know, it's difficult, right? So that's kind of, you know, what I tried to bring to this. It's, you know, interesting enough, well, if I can use that word for lack of a better word, you know, the things that are happening lately just around the world and all that, it, you know, it really seems like a zombie flick in one hand in the sense that, you know, one of the things, for example, I tried to accomplish in this movie was

I'm trying to say without giving away plot lines, but essentially a lot of it deals with information. What's happening? Person A tells you this, person B tells you this, person C tells you this, and all that stuff. And you're kind of stuck in the middle going, I don't know what's going on. So that was kind of what I tried to bring into it.

A certain, a safe confusion. I watched an interview with Tarantino a long time ago where he talked about, I think he was talking about Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction, one of the two. And he was talking about this concept that he calls a safe confusion where people

You want the audience to be confused in terms of, okay, what's going on? But at the same time, it has to be safe in the sense you haven't lost them. As you unfold the story, you want them to be safe and keep watching. But yet there's a certain amount of confusion they need to have because that's when they'll engage more.

So that's what I tried to do with the way I structured the story, which, again, without giving too much away, it's a bit different. And, you know, it's not a simple, OK, from A to B kind of a scenario.

So on one hand, I try to do that with the structure of the story. And I try to, like I said, I try to talk about real, well, quote unquote, real things that do happen in the world, which, you know, the way the world is being portrayed by whether it's the media, by just individuals, by, you know, whoever it is, because I do believe that

You know, that we live in, like I said, interesting times where we have so much access to technology. I mean, it is crazy, man. I'm sitting right now, you know, you don't see it, but I'm sitting in front of two screens. I got my tablet, I got my phone. There's way too much technology in here. You know, it would take me five seconds to look up anything, whatever I'm interested in.

You know, so that's great on one hand. But on the other hand, there's also I feel this this confusion as to, you know, what is going on in the world. You know, like I said, whether it's politics, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. You know, it's not my job as a filmmaker to tell you what's going on, because I don't I don't think that's what we should be doing. But it's simply my job to.

talk about these things and you know you make up your mind i don't you know it's i respect uh you know whatever opinions people have but uh yeah if that if that makes any sense that's kind of what i try to bring into this to make it more than just a you know just um you know just a dumb zombie flick because like i said i love zombies but it shouldn't just be about the zombies it's it should be more than that you know

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think The Walking Dead, you know, touches on that theme. And then, you know, obviously Romero, he really set the tone for all of it with Night of the Living Dead. And, you know, then he went into consumerism with Dawn of the Dead.

No.

No, absolutely. No, I absolutely agree. I mean, um, interestingly enough, uh, I mean, Romero is obviously one of my top zombie. Well, I think he is the top zombie God, you know, film God. Um, but, uh, interesting enough, uh, it, it was actually diary of the dead. I don't know if you've seen that one, um, that, um, I mean, I've seen all of them, but that one was really the one that stood out to me. And the one that, um, I would say probably inspired me the most in terms of

you know, what I want to talk about because it does deal with different, sorry, similar themes just in the sense that, you know, everything's, well, it's slightly different, but, you know, technology plays a big part and, you know, a certain, like I said, confusion as to what's going on and manipulation. Yeah, that's the right word.

Um, so yeah, no, I agree. Um, you know, Romero was a big influence on me as well. Um, you know, I mean, there's plenty of them. Um, if we step slightly out of the zombie genre, Robert Rodriguez is my, one of my top guys, uh, just in terms of executing a movie. I mean, I'm, I'm sure I'm not the first one to say this when I heard, uh, way, way back that, you know, when he made El Mariachi for $7,000, you

You know, I was like, really? Get out of here. You know, I read it somewhere in a book. This was before I, you know, really started on my filmmaking journey. And I was like, good God, man, if he made that back in 92, why shouldn't I be able to do, you know, my version of it by today's standards, which should be better because technology is better, it's cheaper, you know, all that stuff. So that's really...

you know, when this seed was planted in my head that, you know, I don't need it. Yes, it would be great if I had $100,000, a million dollars, you know, whatever, right? I don't. So, but I'm pretty confident I can do this. You know what I mean?

Yeah. We as filmmakers today, you know, Jason and I talked about this too, was we have so much information being thrown at us. And a lot of the times, you know, we end up not actually making a film. We talk about making a film. We sit there and we research every camera package. And you know this, Bojan, there's a new camera package coming out every other day. It's, you know, Red is over there and Canon and Panasonic and here's a Blackmagic.

And I mean, it's just, it's a never ending deluge of new camera packages.

And now you spend more time reading about cameras and lighting kits than you do actually writing a screenplay and going, hey, wait a minute, maybe I should make this. But wait, first I got to look at the new camera packages. I think Rode just released a new audio kit. I got to look at that. And I think that's sort of – it's paralysis through analysis. That's the best way to describe it. But it's good though that you read Rodriguez's book.

And then, you know, realize, hey, you know, why couldn't I make this zombie film for $5,000? No, absolutely. And to go back to the whole gear fetish, as I like to call it. Absolutely. I agree. And I think we all suffer from that. I do, too. Absolutely. You know, this evolution of technology in terms of, you know, filmmaking related technology is amazing. But yes, at some point you have to stop yourself and say, you know what?

but that's great. And yes, in reality, if I make this movie today, if I had waited a year longer, certain aspects of it would probably be easier to make, but then you're in this endless cycle where, yeah, you'll never make anything 'cause things are always getting better, easier. I mean, for this film, I used the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera, which, and I really wanted to use it for this flick because of various things, and we can certainly talk about that too.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. But, you know, if I had waited, for example, until now, you know, I could have used the micro. What is it? The Blackmagic micro studio camera. They got this really small one, which would have allowed me to do even fancier shots. You know what I mean? So, yeah, you can get crazy just thinking about all that stuff.

Um, so yeah, it's, uh, it's great. And, but on one hand you have to stop yourself and say, yeah, do this now. And, um, yeah, when, yeah, going back to Rodriguez, I mean, you know, when I, you know, read about him in a different book and started reading his book and all that stuff, um, you know, the one thing, and Jason talks about this too, the one thing that, um,

you know certainly uh filmmakers who are you know beginning beginner filmmakers um there are certain myths that we we start to believe which is you know well you have to have whatever a million dollars to make a movie or you know after you have to have 20 people on crew uh you know to do all this blah blah and don't get me wrong it certainly you know there are specific budgets for specific types of movies that you should have and all that however

You know, if you get creative, you can make, I'm not going to say you can make everything work because there are certain things that really, you know, probably not going to work, but most things you can.

And, you know, like Rodriguez said in an interview and in his book, you know, take stock of what you have, you know, take stock of the relationships you have built and what do you have access to and make a movie about that. You know, I did that for my first movie. I did that for this movie. And I mean, you should always challenge yourself and, you know, grow, grow.

So, you know, that's that's obviously important. But don't be afraid, man. Just get out and do it. And yeah, you're going to make mistakes. You know, you're in my opinion, the best thing I could have done for this movie and my other movie was not to think everything through. You know what I mean? Because a lot of times we become our own enemy when we start making

dissecting everything. You need to have a game plan, absolutely. But there are certain things where you'll just have to deal with it if it occurs or as it unfolds.

Because you don't have all the answers. I mean, good God, man, I've, you know, I've been on set as an actor on professional sets and I always love to observe the crew because, you know, that's the filmmaker in me. And you think they have all the answers with millions of dollars of budgets? No. So sometimes you just take things as they are. But don't be afraid to just dive in there and, you know, get your feet wet.

Yeah, very true. You know, oftentimes we think, you know, we have to have this large amount of money to do things. And the key, I think, is if we are going to set out to make a movie and we're going to fund it ourselves or even crowdfund or even crowdfund, you know, a certain amount of money, I think the script has to be written that way on purpose, meaning that, you know, we're not going to be able to do all these wonderful special effects unless either A,

You know how to do it personally, like you as the director or whoever know how to do that. And I've seen filmmakers do that. They're special effects guys by trade. So all the VFX stuff looks amazing, all the bullet time stuff. And then on the flip side of that, they're hoping to maybe farm it out, maybe going to somewhere like Upwork or somewhere to find somebody maybe in India or something that could do it for a cheaper price.

But, you know, barring that, you know, I think if you are going to write, you know, make a movie and let's just say we have a thousand dollars to spend, like kind of like what Mark Duplass was recommending, just go making movies as cheap as possible to learn how to make movies. We should make that, you know, we should write, Hey, listen, what do I have access to? I have access to my car, my house, uh, this woods next to me. Uh,

I can use my aunt Susie's house. How am I going to figure it? How can I make this into a movie that is going to keep audiences engaged? Well, maybe I don't have enough for 90 minutes. Maybe I have enough for 20 minutes. So maybe I should make a short film instead and just build off from there. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with everything. I mean, that's exactly what I tried to do on this one. What I really wanted to...

Do on this one that I didn't do on the first one was having more actors having more locations, right? I really wanted to Step up the production value on that side. But of course, you know, there's no budget really for those things So I knew okay have access to certain places, you know, I shot at my brother's place. I shot at my buddy's place You know, I I had access to a studio so I was able to shoot some stuff there and you know

For example, you talked about VFX. I'm not a professional VFX guy. However, I am actually getting more and more into it. But I knew that, okay, I can do certain things with, you know, with VFX. And I do talk about this. I think I talked about that in the article as well. For example, I used Video Copilot's plugins for After Effects. And they allowed me to animate, you know,

you know, jets and drones and all that kind of stuff and, you know, create certain shots that I couldn't have gotten otherwise, not with my budget, right? So, you know, understanding that, okay, I can bring this to the game. And I think I talked about this too in the article. I, you know, made use of stock footage, which in my opinion, stock footage when used properly,

and sparingly and all that, there's nothing wrong with it. I know there's filmmakers who shy away from it. Um, but to me, if you're using somebody else's music, what's the difference? It's somebody else's material. But like I said, as long as it supports your story and it makes sense and you know, you're not using it every, every two minutes or so, uh, nothing wrong with it. So I made use of that. So I understood all these things, uh,

as I was writing the, you know, the script and the way I structured the story, I also structured it purposely that way because, like I said, I wanted more actors. And there's quite a few actors in this one, but I don't have the budget to pay them, you know? But I figured, well, if I only use actors for one, two, maybe three days at the most, I think that can work, right? So I structured the script that way where,

you know, that's what ended up happening. Because at the end of the day, you know, you have to understand that, you know,

You can't abuse other people. You know what I mean? I mean, yes, this is my dream. This is my passion and all that, but that's mine. It's not others, you know, for other people, that's just a job, a gig. And when they're not getting paid, well, you gotta be sensitive to that. Right. Um, so, and yeah, it's probably the actor in me as well. I've, I've been on enough indie shoots where, you know, you start to feel like you're, you're being taken for granted in this one, you know? Um, so I, I,

I was thinking about all these things as I was, like I said, constructing the story, which is important. It's crucial because at the end of the day, I'd rather do a smaller project but do it right than try to attempt this epic thing where at the end of the day, I burn out and I don't even finish it the way I want. I owe money to gazillions of people and everyone hates me.

you know what I mean? This way I I'm good, you know? And, and, and you know, that that's, I made a mistake like that when I first started, uh, you know, I, uh, I tried to make something way too Epic for like my second or third movie. Uh, this movie will never see a light. No, no, it was my third movie. That's right. Uh, cause my second and third short films will never ever see the light of day. Uh, I, but the third one, somebody actually has on a DVD. And if, uh, I,

I ever even got a moniker of success. I know somebody would be like, Hey, look at this. This is Dave. This is thing. Um, uh, but basically there was a lot of, of gunplay and I had, this is one video copilot. I actually have that, that DVD as well. Uh, I actually got, uh, got the DVD for, I think, uh, Christmas or maybe I bought it myself. And what happened was I was all, all set to do all the, I did all the choreography worked out. Well,

One by one, I had my crew drop out. So now I'm doing like not only three roles and four roles. Now I'm doing like six or seven roles. So now it's down to me, my cinematographer, because this is a whole new team. I've never worked with these guys before. And as the day went on, I just had more and more problems kept creeping up that, you know, I could have worked out had I...

had more people to fight these fires for me while I fight these fires. Cause now it's like, you know, I'm going around trying to fix this and do that. And then, you know, the place was supposed to be vacant. And then here, guess what happens? Here comes security. Who are you guys? You're not supposed to be here. And I'm like, yes, we are. I have been over this for months talking to you guys. I mean, it just, it was a complete disaster. But the point I'm trying to make is if I had just said,

done something even a slightly step backwards on a slightly smaller scale. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

I would have had a much better time. I would have had a much better finished product. And we probably would have gotten shot, probably would have gotten everything shot that day rather than, you know, having like pieces of it, you know, put together somewhere. And, you know, eventually I put together what was like a rough cut of a couple of days and it was like, you couldn't show this anywhere. It was unbearable to watch. Just everything that went wrong did go wrong.

My second and third student films, everything that could go wrong went wrong. It was unbelievable. You know, we're just talking about making things that are epic. So if there's advice to pull from this from anybody listening, do not try to make Godzilla or Lord of the Rings or Inglourious Basterds your first time. You will fail horribly.

Yep. Oh, I absolutely agree. You know, I've done a fair share of mistakes on, you know, like short films and all that. But I definitely, you know, there's a lot of anxiety and fear on my first film. And that's why, you know, that's why that one, like I mentioned earlier, it's a comedy mostly set in one location. You know, it's two roommates and it's in their apartment and, you know, stuff starts to go wrong and that kind of thing.

you know, those kinds of scenarios. And, you know, we shot that one in eight days on weekends. And, you know, that really that was a great sort of playground learning ground for me to see. OK, first of all, can I do that was 83 minutes, which is this one is also 80 minutes. So, you know, it's the same length.

So that was a good opportunity for me to see, okay, can I actually make a feature, you know, an 80-minute thing? Because, you know, a lot of filmmakers talk about that, but they've actually never done it. I didn't know what does it actually entail to make such a longer piece, you know? At that point, my longest short was probably 12, 15 minutes maybe, you know? So...

But there was a certain safe environment because, like I said, mostly shot in one location. It had four main actors and then there was a few others, but it was mostly those four guys. And I was very happy when it was all done and with the end result. And it boosted my...

What's the word, man? Not my ego, but my... Confidence. Confidence. Thank you. Jesus. I can't talk. Yes. So it definitely boosted my confidence and made me realize that, okay, I think I'm ready to do something bigger. But that's a crucial moment right there.

uh, when it could have fallen apart easily if I had gone, you know, just a slightly bigger than, uh, what I ended up doing. Um, it, you know, it's a tricky thing. And I've obviously I have many filmmaking friends as we, we all do and actor friends and all that. And, uh,

you know, some of them have never made a feature, some of them are still working on it and some are recovering from it, you know, as we all are. And, you know, it's always good to just be cognizant of, okay,

You should always have your own style, absolutely. But if you know people who have done it, talk to them. I love to talk to guys like you, other filmmakers, and just kind of bounce ideas off. Okay, this is what worked for me. I don't know if it's going to work for you, but this is what worked for me. And once you start doing that, once you start understanding this whole process, it definitely helps you. At least it helped me. So hopefully when the next one comes,

When it's time for the next one, it'll be bigger. But like I said, I don't want to go overboard where that one's pretty much going to bury me. Yeah. Somebody once told me before when I was starting out, they said, Dave, never listen to anybody in this business who teaches you how to make a film who's never actually made a film.

I never listen to anybody who's about how to write a script. If they've ever written a script, he said, you know, this is all so hands on that you can't just keep, you know, there's a lot of theory in all of this. There's a lot of theory like, hey, I could, you know, make it this way or that way. What you really need is the is the is that meat and potatoes, so to speak. And I actually wrote a book. It didn't get published. It's actually on a hard drive.

I took everybody on this journey day by day, and I actually took a snapshot of my bank account, well, the production's bank account, everything from check stubs, receipts,

Uh, my own like writings of how I dealt with problems with crew cast, uh, locations. And I, every day at the end of every day or at the beginning of every day, I would write something at the end of every day. I would write something. So like day one had a beginning and this is what happened. This is what we're planning on doing. And then I, at the end of the day, I would come back and write this and I would give you snapshots. I compiled it all together into a book. It was this TV pilot.

And I actually pitched it and a lot of places were like, you know, this is a lot. And I said, well, it's just detailing, you know, how did I come up with a thousand dollars very quickly? How did I get this money? How did I when PayPal shut down our crowdfunding campaign because they had no clue what it was? They how did I come back from that? It's that's the stuff that, you know, you have to talk about. And then there's also like I actually have my own private account.

checklist of what I do now. I'm going to start a crowdfunding campaign next year. I know exactly what I'm going to do differently than what I did years ago. And even what I've done last year when I was helping out other friends, sometimes they would send me their link or whatever and I'd say, okay, just do this and this. Don't worry about credit. When the time comes, just retweet my stuff or

Help me out any way you can. But, but yeah, you know, it's, it's just about those relationships and actually cultivating it and, you know, not being, you know, just not being a jerk to people, I guess. Right.

Oh, absolutely. No, absolutely. I mean, first of all, that sounds like an amazing book, man. You know, I want to read that, you know. No, but absolutely. That's that's exactly what it is. You know, going back to your your comment about listening, people have never actually made a film. I 100 percent agree. And we all have listened to these individuals who have

these amazing theories. And at the end of the day, look, if you haven't done it yourself, or if you, unless you are talking about what someone else said, it's a theory, you know. I only talk about things that I've actually done, you know, because at the end of the day,

I don't know. And I don't want to be the guy who gives you some BS information because I wouldn't want to be the one receiving BS information either. You know what I mean? So, no, absolutely. It's a tricky thing because...

you know, obviously everyone has an opinion. And, you know, the one thing I always like to do, you know, whenever I meet, you know, let's say filmmakers and, you know, we start talking about everything. And, you know, after I've met them, I looked them up online just to see, okay, has this person actually done something? Because, you know, if they have given me so many information and all that, I want to see where that actually comes from. And, you know, in some cases, you know,

you know, you're positively surprised to go, holy crap. Well, they've done amazingly. I want to talk more to this person. And then, you know, there's, there's situations where you go, I see nothing here. I see absolutely nothing. Um, so at that point you kind of go, I don't know, man, I don't know. Um, and you know, it's the same thing. I, you know, I have my YouTube channel where I, um, I have a show called filmmaking today. Uh,

where I talk about different things, gear I use, techniques I use for my film and my projects. And I always, you know, from the beginning, I told myself, I will only talk about things that I'm actually doing, you know, because again, there's so many videos about, you know, all kinds of things that

coming from people who have actually never done it. I kind of have an issue with, as an actor, I also have an issue with, you know, acting coaches because, you know, you got to be careful with that. You know, you take a workshop with person X and, you know, you look them up and you see they have actually less gigs than you, you know? Okay, I...

I technically, I, I'm more qualified to teach you this course. You know what I mean? So this is not, not a good idea. Um, so yeah, I, I agree to, to, you know, put it in one sentence. It's funny. You mentioning acting coaches. Uh, there was actually an acting coach on my Facebook. He, he deleted me just recently. Uh, he was always inviting me to all his events in, in New York and stuff like that. And, uh, you know, I actually one day watched one of his, uh,

I don't want, it's not a real, it's like a promo for his classes. And he acted like he was like the best actor who's ever existed. So I looked him up and he was in virtually nothing. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. I'm like, how the hell is this guy running acting classes who has done absolutely positively nothing? And, um,

That's why when he deleted me, I didn't even worry about it. I was like, oh, well. Because I have an app on my Facebook that tells me when anybody deletes me. I was like, I don't even care anymore. So I took that app off. Why even bother? I'm barely on Facebook anymore anyway. As most people can tell, I go on there and this and that. I'm sorry, now I'm getting off topic. Now I'm talking about Facebook. But yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

It's like Alex Ferrari, he just had a post on his IndieFilmHustle.com blog where he said, don't hire somebody just because they have a very good looking camera. That is a mistake that I made one time. And the guy was talented, but he was also insane. And by the end, we were fighting back and forth. He was fighting with everybody.

And, you know, everyone kind of gave me the eye, like you hired this guy. And I said, you know, I was like, guys, I'm sorry. I tried to fire him. The producer wants to keep him because he's got, you know, the red camera and he's got this, but it was a complete, you know, disaster. Uh,

And afterwards, I was so burned out from the project, I didn't want to talk about it anymore. I told the producers, that guy completely sapped all the energy. Because you know, Bojan, when you go into a film set, anybody, and whether it's you, me, Quentin Tarantino, Robert Rodriguez, we all have a finite amount of energy and patience and everything else. We all have, at the beginning of the day, we have...

you know, that those levels, you know, and as you go on, you know, going through everything, you know, it gets whittled down. Certain things get, take it out more than others, you know, but by the end of the day, you know, you're pretty much on empty, you know, physically and mentally and sometimes spiritually. And, you know, that's when you're, you finally realize, you know, wow, it does take a village to raise a child. Sometimes it does take a whole army to make a film. And this is why. Oh, absolutely. And I mean, yeah,

I don't think most people realize absolutely how exhausting this process is, especially in the film, in the indie film world where, you know, everything's smaller, the budgets are smaller, you know, everything. And absolutely, I have had my fair share of...

you know, situations where, you know, whether it was dealing, I have been blessed to work with great cast, but, you know, there are certain situations where they might not understand

That look it's not it's not just about you. You know, I mean again, I'm an actor and When I once said I I understand that there are so many things happening at once so many so many stars have to align up, you know line up to make this one shot and You know, we all have to suck it up essentially, you know and and

you know, it's difficult. It absolutely is difficult. I mean, on, you know, on this, this set, um, it was, you know, a typical day would pretty much consist of me. Um, I would have my audio guy. Um, I would have, you know, my, my, uh, makeup and prosthetics, uh, person. And then if I'm lucky one more person, right. Sort of to help out a little bit of everything. And, you know, that's it, you know, and then the actors, obviously, however many there were. So, um,

you know we're not talking like i said 20 30 people on set uh because i'm a strong believer that the more people you have on set as crew members it all slows you down and a you know it's not about having a lot of people it's about having the right amount of people you know and yeah sometimes i might go overboard and you know maybe not having enough but um that's what allows me to shoot seven to ten pages a day which is what i average um we shot this film in 10 days

And, you know, it's an exhausting process at the end of the day. I mean, I'm the first one on set. I'm the last one to leave. You know, there have been plenty of days where I wouldn't even eat anything. Not because I don't want to eat. It's because, you know, when it's lunchtime, I'm going through my shot list and I'm going, okay, we got to get this done. We got to do this. I talk to my sound guy, you know, whoever it is, my prosthetics person, you know, and that kind of stuff. So it's very exhausting. But, yeah.

I do believe that you have to have a certain amount of insanity as a filmmaker to attempt anything in this world because I think any sane person would go, I'm good, man. I'll stick to my nine to five. So I am blessed with a certain insanity, which keeps me going. Yeah.

And you need that. You need that little bit of insanity that when you say at the end of, at the end of some of these projects, you'll say never again, never again, am I going to do this? I don't care what comes along. And six months later, you know, at most you're like, damn, I should go make a movie. You know, what the hell's going on here? Cause you know, I mean like, you know, my quick, you know, little story, it's been about four years since I actually made anything of my, my own. Like,

That's not to say I haven't been on other people's sets or done this or done that. I'm just talking about my own stuff. The last thing I produced was about four years ago. There's an interesting story about why it's been four years. To make a long story short, it's crazy people. We had a crazy editor and I finally looked at the guy that was the director. I recommended this guy because all of a sudden he just kind of went berserk.

And, uh, I'll tell the story to another podcast, but basically I was like, I apologize. I'm going to work to figure the, you know, to, to solve this stuff. And that's, uh, that's at that point where I was like, I must be insane to, to, to keep wanting to come back and be a glutton for punishment with this stuff. You know, it's like, my God. And, you know, and, uh, you know, speaking of, you know, of editing, actually one of the questions I want to ask you too, Bojan was, you know, what did you use to, uh, to edit project eugenics?

Yeah, I used Premiere Pro for editing. I'm an Adobe nerd, right? So I use most of their products. So yeah, for editing, it was a Premiere Pro. I used to use Final Cut 7 a while ago. And on my last movie, my first movie, I actually was one of those people who switched to Final Cut 10.

And I actually edited most of the movie in there and it it did not work out. Just my personal opinion. It's not what seven used to be. So I went back to because before or somewhere in between that I can remember I was using Premiere. And so I went back to Premiere, which I

I use exclusively now for my editing because I love the integration with Premiere Pro and After Effects. Just being able to send the sequence into After Effects, do whatever I need to do.

Um, and then, you know, keep working in it. So, uh, yeah, that was that. Yeah. You, I use all the Adobe products as well. Uh, you can't beat that cause all you do is literally you click a button and, um, I edit this podcast and audition and if I, you know, when I'm in premiere, I can click a button and just say, send audio to audition and I can work on all the audio problems. I can take out pops and clicks and stuff. Uh, I mean, it's just, it's amazingly easier. You actually couldn't get any easier. Uh,

because I mean maybe you could but I mean it's just it's phenomenal the way it works together oh absolutely I mean I am you know I i also do graphic and web design related things so I'm you know I obviously use Photoshop Illustrator for for all that and down

In my opinion, I know a lot of people hated when Adobe switched over to their Creative Cloud subscription-based model, and I actually love it. I think it's a great model. We're all constantly getting updates.

They're great. I mean, you know, just recently I discovered their mobile apps. So you can actually create a LUT, you know, a color lookup table using your phone. You just take a photo of whatever, I would say a sunset, and it will create those colors and you can apply that to your video footage.

And it's amazing, you know, just the integration, which goes back to what I, you know, what I said earlier, earlier, the advancements in in this field, I mean, technology in general, but especially this field are so incredible. I mean, there's really no excuse not to make a film, you know, whatever type of film, it doesn't matter. You know, yes, 20, 30 years ago, it was

you know, 10 times more difficult and, you know, you need it to ask for permission, right? Like, like Jason always talks about asking for permission. Nope. We're done with that. I, I'm not going to ask anyone for permission. You know, I'm, I'm, you know, able to make my films the way they are. And obviously I want to grow the budgets and all that. I don't want to keep making $5,000 movies, but I'm not asking anyone for permission, you know, and that's extremely empowering. And, uh,

It really allows you to tell your story. You know, whether people like the movie or not, I have no impact on that. But this is my story. This is it. It's truly a director's cut. There's no, you know, no one interfering. You know, you know, that's that's what, you know, a lot of filmmakers are doing now is they don't want you know, they don't have to ask permission. They don't have to, you know, wait for someone's notes to come in after seeing the dailies anymore. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

And now back to the show. You know, it's they can go out and they can they're the ones calling the shots. For instance, like M. Night Shyamalan. That's what he does now, because, you know, after he made After Earth, he said, I don't want to do this whole studio system anymore. So he went out, made the visit, and it was a lot more successful for him, both financially and, you know, as an artist, because now he didn't have anybody telling him.

you know, what to do because he could do it himself. You know, he, he made all his own calls. There was no notes, no one looking over his shoulder. And that, that's, you know, that's invaluable as a filmmaker. Like Robert Rodriguez also was talking about that recently when he said, you know, I'd rather have less money and more freedom than, you know, more money. And I have to answer to 10,000 people. He said, you know, it's, I'd easily rather have less money. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm right on board with, with that statement. I mean, I,

One of my goals is to show people that this is what I can do for $5,000. By the way, that's $5,000 Canadian dollars, which in the US is like $2 nowadays. A dollar is worth nothing, apparently. That is my goal. I understand.

I actually, I have absolutely no desire to make like a hundred or $150 million blockbuster movie. I really don't because knowing myself, how passionate I get about these things, I probably get fired for picking a fight with, with the wrong executive and all that stuff. And I, you know, so those stories don't interest me because I think for,

you know, for one million. I mean, you know, you look especially in the horror field. Another one of my favorite directors is James Wan. You

He made the first Saw movie and the Insidious movies and all that. You look at just those movies, all of them, all the Insidious movies, I think the first one had a budget of $800,000, I think, somewhere around there. The budgets grew slowly, but they're still in a few million dollar range. You look at those movies and, man, they're amazing. I mean,

The horror fan in me, you know, if you're into horror, I love it. And from a production point of view, I think it's done very well. You know, so, you know, I think, you know, I mean, Spielberg talked about, you know, this and Lucas too, about, you know, the implosion of Hollywood, which...

My opinion is I think something will happen in the next, you know, little bit. The way I kind of see it, you know, if you look at the history of Hollywood, you know, back in the late 60s when the studio system fell apart, right? And you had corporations buying all the studios and making the movies and everything.

You know, that was sort of the first, or the second wave technically. You know, the first wave was the one that started, then you had the second wave with the corporations. And I kind of look at this as the third wave, which is us indie guys, call it the YouTubers, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter, who are able, and I'm not talking about even myself here, I'm talking about in general, there's certainly plenty of other directors who are able to do much more than I am with small budgets,

And you look at the stuff that they're doing for virtually nothing. And yes, most people don't get paid on those sets. But you know what? There are indie projects that cost $100,000, $150,000 and people still don't get paid. And then you look at movies where like $5,000 or $10,000. Well,

I think if you make a movie for $10,000, just give the person another $10,000 and everyone would get paid. You know what I mean? But it would still be a great product, whereas you start wondering, okay, the millions and millions of dollar budgets, what happened, man? Where's the quality? Did everything go towards the catering budget? You know what I mean? You start to wonder. Yeah.

Yeah, so I firmly believe that we are part of the next wave, so to speak. Because at the end of the day, you can't keep having budgets in the $200 million range. I mean, you look at the recent Terminator movie. I mean, if it wasn't for China and the money they made there, the movie obviously flopped. Let's not kid ourselves. You can say whatever you want. In North America, the movie flopped.

But it didn't have to. It could have been something. I was praying it would be something as I was watching it. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of change coming our way. And I think in the end, it will be positive change if we just stick to our guns and say,

you know look we can tell these stories and um you know i'm not you know if a producer comes to me and says listen we have a couple of million we want you to direct this movie you know i'm not going to be like no no i'm an indie guy no no i'm going to take the money i'm going to make a movie but absolutely absolutely you know you're not stupid uh but at the at the same time it

If you came to me, you obviously trust that I can bring something to it. So let me tell my story, you know, and that's easier to tell. It's easier to have that conversation with someone when you're talking about a two million dollar production versus a 200 million. So, yes, it's, you know, I think a lot is going to happen and some of it is already, you know.

Yeah, I wonder – as I was talking in my last podcast interview with Brad Wilkie, a lot of this I think is – it's so accessible now and we always talk about who is going to rise to the top. Is it just so overcrowded that –

It takes a rare instance of the perfect storm of a network of money, of this and that to rise to the top? Or is it still the old-fashioned way where everything's still just going to rise to the top based upon quality? Meaning like the Reservoir Dogs is still going to rise to the top, those types of movies. I actually feel both are true. Personally, I think that even with the influx of filmmakers now, just in the past year or two,

I really do think that you're going to see the quality projects are always going to go to the top. You always trust your friends most of all. So if your friend tells you, hey, listen, go watch whatever movie, most of the time you're going to listen to them. You're going to say, hey, okay, I'll sit down. I'll carve out the time. But I think with a lot of these superhero movies, I think that's going to cause a lot of burnout. But that's

But then again, I said that like two years ago, and then they're still churning them out, and they're still number one at the box office. And now Star Wars is coming out, and that's – let's face it, that's the unstoppable force right now. I don't even think Star Wars is a movie anymore. I think it's like a –

I don't even... It's almost like a need now. It's almost like on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's like Star Wars and then food and shelter and feelings of safety. I mean, it is just a phenom. I mean, and I see all these spinoffs and I'm like, you know what? They could have a hundred spinoffs. They could have...

movies come out until everybody right now is past and our great great grandchildren still watching them and you know what I don't think it's ever going to stop if they could just keep finding a new character to expand on like hey see that guy in the cantina well that's you know Rebulon 6 and he's going to you know do something now and it's all just you know it's it's just all the continuation of this universe

Hey, man, don't underestimate. Don't underestimate Revlon 6, man. That guy's got it going, you know. Oh, absolutely. Look, you know, I mean, it's human nature to to yearn for entertainment. I mean, this has been true way before there have been movies and television and all that. I mean, you know, we want to be entertained, you know, so that will always be there. But I do believe I agree with you in the sense, you know, the way I see it.

I don't want the big blockbusters to go away, you know, because, you know, if you want to tell a an epic story like.

a Star Wars type of story. You know, there are certain budgets needed. That's what I'm saying. You can't make everything for, you know, low budget. But I don't think that every movie needs to be that. You know, the problem, in my opinion, the problem is that, I mean, good God, we have comedies now that cost 60, 70 million to make. Dude, it's a comedy. As long as you make people laugh, you're fine. You know, why? Why? Is my question. So,

I think it needs to balance itself out, sort of. I still want to see the big blockbusters coming out, whatever, a few of them a year and all that. But that should be a small segment. The rest of it should be...

you know, reasonable budgets. And at the end of the day, it all goes back to story. I actually, I don't go to the theater as much as I used to because frankly, when I look at, you know, I look at some of the movies, I'm like,

I don't think it has a... Knowing, like I said, knowing how the story has suffered in a lot of movies, I just go, you know what? I don't trust that this is going to be a good story, so I just don't go. And I wait until it's on Netflix, and then I give it a shot, and sometimes it's good, sometimes it isn't. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show. So...

If you make, if you really focus on the story and you, and the crucial part, which I don't know why execs seem to have a problem with that. If you hire a director because you think he or she is good, let them do their job, man. You know, let them do their job. If they're not good, then don't hire them in the first place. So, you know, I think all that, you know, like I said, the story needs to, the story needs to be number one. You know, we're now at the time where

Um, we don't get wowed anymore by, by technology, by, by CG and all that. And, you know, I, I saw the new, I'm sure you have to the new, uh, Batman versus Superman or Superman versus Batman, you know, whatever the order is, uh, uh, trailer. And, uh,

I'm more interested in the story, in the conflict between them. Not so much about the CG, because I know the CG will be fine. You don't have to pimp it. It's 2015. We're able to do some amazing stuff with CG. So tell me more about the story. That's what I'm curious. And I think a lot of studios make that mistake where they show you all the CG, all the explosions, blah, blah, blah. And

you know, no offense, it starts to look like a Michael Bay movie, you know? Uh, I mean, you know, so yeah, like I said, it's, uh, yeah, I agree. I absolutely agree. I think, uh,

On one hand, it won't go away. But on the other hand, I do think certain things will change. You know what I mean? I concur. I think certain things will change. Because, you know, I mean, we always talk about, you know, theatrical releases too. And, you know, there was always that discussion of, you know, if independent films should try to get a theatrical release. Now, you actually had a theatrical screening.

And I don't know, was that for one night or was that for a couple nights? Yeah, it was one night. Okay. Now, do you feel – because you did this for one night then. So did you feel that that may have helped you or do you feel that maybe next time you wouldn't do that again? That's a good question. I do feel –

I mean, I'm happy with the turnout because we had it on a Tuesday evening, a rainy Tuesday in Vancouver. And, you know, I was able to get people out. So that's an accomplishment considering I'm a nobody, no name filmmaker. Now for the next one, I don't think I don't think it has to happen. No, I don't think a theatrical release is crucial.

Honestly, I don't know if I'm going to do it for the next one or not. For this one, I really wanted to do it because I felt that I had a certain momentum going, you know, and I felt that, okay, this could help, so let's just do it. And, you know, like I said, I'm happy with the turnout and all that. But I think we're now at the time where, you know,

Including myself, like I said earlier, I don't really, you know, for example, you know, my wife and I bought tickets for Star Wars, obviously, like a month ago.

Um, I would actually, if I could stream that sucker in my living room on my nice big screen TV, um, you know, in two weeks, whenever it comes out, I'd be glad. I'd be happy to do that. You know, I, I, you know, I don't care about seeing it in the theater because like I said, if I could stream it here in the comfort of my own home and have a good time and, you know, popcorn and all that, I'm cool with that. So I think,

you know, people's mindset has changed a lot when it comes to that. I, uh, in my opinion, your movie should be available wherever it can be available, you know, sort of like the Netflix model. Um, because, uh,

how people watch your stuff has changed drastically. You know, I have a, I have a 15 year old cousin and I always like to use them as a, as a Guinea pig. And, you know, I, I asked him and a couple of his buddies, you know, okay. So I was curious, do you guys care about cable? You know? And they're like, no, you know, we care about the shows we watch. Okay, cool. So the shows you watch, do you care about watching it on a TV or how do you watch it? I'm like,

I don't know. I watch it however I want, on my phone, on my tablet, blah, blah. So, you know, there's no, you know, I think with...

our generation and certainly with the older generation, the prime sort of experience of watching a movie is obviously the theater and then at home. Not with these guys. The only thing they do care about doing on the big screen is gaming. And that's day one on the big screen. But other than that, they're okay with watching a movie or show on their phone. So yeah, going back to your question, I think it has helped and I'm happy we did it.

I'm not sure if I'm going to do the next one, honestly. Because it might be two or three years by the time we make the next one, and who knows how much will change, how the landscape will change by then. Yeah.

Hard to say. Yeah, that's true. And by the way, I actually looked it up. As of this recording, December the 7th, $5,000 Canadian dollars equals $3,755 US dollars. So there's that. I wanted to look that up. So now we have a $1,300 surplus now from filming. But so you ended up putting the movie on VHX and it's available now.

You actually have a ton of extra footage on there. Sorry, bonuses on there. You have an audio commentary. You have a behind-the-scenes look. You have this special effects tutorial that you did. You have your screenplay on there, too. Is there a reason why you chose VHX over maybe putting it on YouTube or even trying to get it on Netflix?

Um, yeah. Um, well, I haven't ruled out Netflix yet. Um, so, uh, but, uh, the reason I went with VHX, um, I use them for my first movie as well. And, um,

I just liked how, because they're still relatively, you know, a relatively new company. And I like how they're constantly improving their service. You know, I don't get paid to say any of this, you know, just my opinion. But I do like that every once in a while. They're like, hey, you have this feature now, you have this feature. So they seem to understand that the landscape is changing rapidly. So they're, you know, keeping up. And I just love the fact that, you know,

I can upload all my stuff, whatever I want. I can set the price. I mean, they take their cut from each transaction, but they don't dictate me how much I should sell the movie for. For example, iTunes, they do have their set prices. Last time I checked, anyway, I could be wrong about that. And you have all the stats in terms of who

downloaded or purchased your movie, rented your movie, whatever it is. So that was really the main reason, just control. You know, at the end of the day, you know, I, you know, you get used to as an indie guy, you do get used to a certain amount of control you have over your project. Right. And, you know, you spend so much time and energy, you know, making it and

You know, it would really suck that when it comes to distribution, all that gets taken away from you, you know, which is usually what does happen. So that was the reason why I like a company like VHX. Now, having that said, you know, I, like I said earlier, I want it to be available everywhere, you know? And, you know, that's, like I said, in my opinion, how we view and consume entertainment has changed drastically. You know, you,

I don't have cable because the entertainment I watch is accessible via YouTube, via Netflix, whatever service it is. And that's good enough for me, man. Yeah, that was the main reason. And yeah, going back to the special features. Yeah, I always...

Most of my film education also comes from making off features on DVDs and Blu-rays. When we moved to Canada in 2001, that's when I started watching Blu-rays because they weren't available in Europe.

And, uh, when I saw, Holy crap, there's an audio commentary, dude, I cannot watch the movie. And the director's talking about what I'm watching, you know, how he did it and all that stuff. And it was, it was, you know, I was like, Oh my God moment. So, you know, like I said, most of my education comes from that. And I always feel I want to do the same. Um, you know, um, it's, I guess it's a, it's a way of, you know, giving back if you want to call it that. Um,

You know, because I feel the more there are indie filmmakers, you know, the better it is for everyone because all of us will collectively sort of raise this industry to a level where, you know, we can actually make money doing this. You know, it's not just, okay, let's put my own money into this and, you know, you're never going to see anything from it. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So, yeah.

That's the reason. Yeah. And, uh, you know, Jason Brubaker was saying, you know, some of these distribution deals are just completely inane, you know, and nobody in the right mind would, um, would go for them. I actually, uh, knew somebody who, uh, they actually made, I probably put about 10,000 into their movie. And, uh,

They were trying to distribute it, and when the time came, they only had one company that was willing to pay them, and they were going to pay them something ridiculous. I think it was like $1,000 or $600, and they would have the rights for the movie for five years to show the movie in some foreign country. I think it was in Cambodia or something, and the filmmaker was like, what the hell kind of distribution deal is this? Yeah.

And they got full rights to the movie, too. So for those five years, he couldn't sell it to anywhere else. It was all about... So it was really odd. And I don't know what they ended up doing with it. But, you know, I think this is the future, too, where...

We, if we did have a theatrical run with a film, I think it should, it probably will end up being available the same day or maybe the day after on maybe VHX or maybe, you know, YouTube or even a digital download directly from that person's site. And, you know, hey, listen, it's 10 bucks and or whatever the hell it might be.

And you can get the bare bones version. You can get this version. Then you know what Drafthouse Films does. Hey, look, you can get the film, but then you also get a T-shirt. Or if you want the next package, you get a poster with it. And the next package, you get the vinyl record with it. And I think stuff like that, having those upselling packages and stuff are going to be the future as well. And I think it's just going to be a begin about...

is going to be again, excuse me, about building that market, building that audience, making sure you have a high quality project that you can actually do with the resources you have. And, you know, maybe not shooting too high for the moon and, you know, crowdfunding and, you know, keep working that audience and, you know, seeing what you can come up with and, you know, and just, you know, and building from there, you know, there's a, there was a really good article about

you know, if you do build an audience for a film, you know, what do you do with that audience after the film is over? And you just sort of say, Hey guys, uh,

Well, it's been fun. It's been a fun year, you know, us building this. So that's one of the things too, I think has to change is how people market films. I think Facebook fan pages, honestly, starting a new one for every film you do, I think it's going to get a little like ludicrous after a while, because I know people who have like seven, eight different Facebook pages for different films they've done. And then they have to, then there's that audience and then there's this audience. But I think maybe if you had it under one umbrella,

or maybe Facebook could change this, but maybe if you had it just for your production company, it's, it's stuff like that that I think are really going to be key to making sure that everyone still sees your stuff. And, uh, but then again, you know, the email list is always going to be key. That email list is critical, uh, because you know, and you know, all the social media stuff, we can talk about it for days, but the fact is it's rented space and they can change it without warning. They can change it. They can do whatever they want and they never have to tell us about it. Uh,

Uh, they, and they don't owe us an explanation because after all, it's a free product and, uh, you know, they, you know, they're the ones putting all the money for it and we're just sort of renting that space out. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, um, going back to the whole, um, having multiple pages, um,

Absolutely. I mean, I have my mailing list. And initially when I put that together, I actually talked to someone about that, a person who had his own mailing list that I was subscribed to. And I asked him, what should I do? Should I have one for this movie, for this blah, blah? And he, to his credit, said, no, no, dude, have one. Trust me.

And so that's what I did. I treat my mailing list as a sort of like a VIP area. If you subscribe to it, you will always be the first one to get...

you know, clips. For example, if you go on the website Project Eugenics, you can watch the first three minutes and whatever it is, 40 seconds of the movie for free, right? Well, that was available to my newsletter subscribers months ago, right? So they were able to see it. And then, you know, whenever I have coupons, discounts and all that stuff, they are the first ones to, you know, find out about it. And it's not just about this movie. Then, you know, whenever I have

videos for my YouTube channel, they are the first ones to get notified. So, you know, that that's my way of building an audience and, you know, rewarding them. And to me, that's really how, you know, how we're going to rise in this in this industry, in this indie industry, because at the end of the day, it all comes back to the fan base. You know, you look a guy like Kevin Smith,

Another good example, you know, who really has sort of cut himself off from Hollywood, like mainstream Hollywood in terms of filmmaking, who is, you know, making more of his own stuff.

Well, he's allowed, he's able to do that because he has had almost 20 year career in Hollywood, right? Well, I don't have that. So I have to adapt a slightly different model, which, you know, hopefully it's not going to take me 20 years to get there. But, you know, you look at YouTube guys, which that's sort of the model I'm adapting. You know, Film Riot is a great YouTube channel.

where they talk all about film related stuff and they have their fan base. And that's the approach I'm taking, which is okay, this is the stuff I do. I talk about film related stuff, whether it's gear, whether it's techniques, all that stuff. Subscribe to my newsletter, you'll get a book as free, which is, I think it's called "How to Make a Movie in Your Own Living Room", which talks about my first movie.

And then you'll be the first one to get all my info. Sorry, all my promo stuff and all that stuff. And it's working. I mean, it's definitely growing and I'm happy with it. It's certainly not there where I want it to be at this point, but it's growing. So that's the main thing. And that's how we have to look at it. I know a lot of filmmakers...

Young filmmakers are a generation who are still trying to adopt the old model, who aren't as active online, who don't have their own fan base and all that. And look, there are people every year who succeed with the old model. You write a script, it gets noticed by the right people, you get your funding, that's all great.

But that's a very small percentage, you know, and I don't want to build, you know, put all my hopes and efforts into something that ultimately, yeah, might never be seen by anyone, you know, and that's, that's also why I have, you know, an issue with film festivals these days, where, you know, I love film festivals, that's all great. But the reality is, you know, 10 years ago, you might have

Film Festival X may have received 200 submissions. Now it's 2 million, you know, or who knows, however. So, you know, it's a lot more difficult to stand out. And I, you know, I just think by building your own audience, by

you know, having people dedicated to you and what it is that you're doing will in the long run help you. And there's a lot of examples of that where, you know, it works on YouTube and online in general, right?

Yeah, it's very true. And, you know, one of the other things that I've noticed is, is that once somebody gets a following on YouTube, they tend to go right to Patreon and they start a Patreon account to get some, you know, to have people actually, you know, fund them, whether it be five, 10, you know, $15 a month. I actually was researching Patreon and some of them, some of those channels are pulling down a pretty good amount of money per month. I'm talking like

13, 15,000 per month. Um, now I don't know. This is what I always wonder about Patreon. I don't know how that divvies up between the members or if that's just all has to go towards art or if they're quitting their day jobs and who the hell knows. Uh, cause I guess it's a case by case situation, but, um,

You know, but I mean, so there's a lot of options now, which is a good thing. You know, it's not a war of, it's not a war anymore to get your film made. It's a war of eyeballs and ears. So, you know, you just have to sort of chug along and figure out, again, like we were saying when we started, you know, how are you going to stand out? You know, how are you going to stand out from the pack? And, you know, how are you going to make sure that, you know, people know who you're, you know, as soon as people put your movie in, how are they going to know it's your movie? How are they going to know your style?

And I think that's a challenge now is finding a voice. Because I know I struggle to find my voice sometimes. Even in writing. Even when it's just me with a memo pad and a pen. Because I still do it old school. I try to disconnect from technology when I'm writing. I save the laptop and the other stuff for later on. But for now, it's just a pen and a paper. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show. Mm-hmm.

But so that's – now I lost track now. I'm talking about pens and papers. But no, I think that's – there are these options out there now, and I think a lot of filmmakers are trying to figure out how to actually make it work for them is what I'm trying to say. Oh, absolutely. And look –

By no means have I figured it out. I just want to say that. I have figured out a lot, like I said, how to make a movie, but when it comes to distribution, that's still, you know, that's a beast on its own. And, you know, on one hand, you just have to understand that things are changing constantly, you know, and...

The things we talk about right now, a month from now, there might be another service that comes out that just, whoa, blows it out of the water, right?

So you have to be open to change. You can't be stuck in the old ways because – and I understand the traditional way of making and distributing a movie has been there for, what, 60 years? 60-plus years? Well, more than that. So I get it. That's a significant time in –

in that industry. But much like when the first digital cameras came out 10-ish years ago,

um, you know, things have changed and things are changing and you need to understand that. And, um, I get why a Steven Spielberg type doesn't really care about it because he doesn't have to, you know, but a Bojan Dulevic type has to, you know, cause I, I don't have any of that, uh, of, of what Steven Spielberg has. So yeah, be open to change and simply, um,

Embrace it and understand that making a movie nowadays is not actually that difficult anymore. It's difficult, but not as much. It's really what do you do to get it noticed, to get it seen? That's really what we need to tackle. And that's what I'm constantly...

trying to figure out you know i'm not worried about my next movie how to make it i mean of course i'm not going to be an arrogant prick and like i got it all figured out i don't you know but uh my bigger concern is okay how do i get it seen how do i frankly make money you know you have to make money off of it because like i said you how else you're going to keep going and make more movies you know

So that's a challenge. And but the more services come out like Patreon, like VHX and all that, it makes me feel good. You know, I want an explosion of those services because eventually we'll figure out something that is sustainable within that, you know.

Yeah, and that's true too because making money or making a profit on this is, again, how you make your next film. Unless you... If you go in and make a movie and...

It's just the goal is just for experience or what have you, and you spend like $2,000 and you're just like, look, I'm going to put up on YouTube. Maybe this will get me some hits, maybe give me some subscribers, but I'm not going to do this to make a profit or try to sell this. Then that's fine. But if you're serious about making this as a profit, making it profitable, you have to actually have a business plan. You have to think this way.

You can't just sort of go in and say, "Well, I hope things work out," because eventually someone's going to come along. And this is a story I'll save for another time, but I have a friend of mine and he had that attitude. And finally somebody, a big distributor came to him and actually asked him for those materials, those business materials, those accounting materials and everything else. And he was like, "I don't have anything. I have no, I can't give you the budget. I can't give you this. I can't give you that."

Um, and there's a couple of things they asked him for and eventually they, they just sort of walked very interesting story. I mean, I'll, I'll tell it sometime or I'll have, I'll bring him on to tell it, but, uh, but you know, like you said, you know, there's a lot of options out there and, um,

You know, we've been talking for about, you know, about an hour 20 now. So, you know, in closing, is there anything you wanted to maybe say? Any final thoughts or closing thoughts you want to add to this conversation? You know, I just want to obviously thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And, you know, I love what you're doing. Keep doing it. We need guys like you, you know. And I just want to just generally tell everyone, you know, if you want to make a movie, go

Make it, do it, obviously be smart about it. Think about all those things we've been talking about, but just do it, man. Life's way too short. And like I said, if you're smart about it, you can do all kinds of things.

Um, also, um, if you are curious about my film, go project eugenics.com. You can rent it or you can purchase just a movie or there's a filmmaker edition, which has the making of features we talked about. And also I have a promo code that I created just for, um, the listeners here. If you get the filmmaker edition and just punch in, in the coupon section, punch in podcast and you'll get 30% off.

So it's actually for you Americans, it'll be even better. Oh, no, wait, I'm trying to think. Think is it in US or Canadian? Anyway, it'll be either better or it'll be the same. So, yeah, it'll be it's $14.99 and then you'll get 30% off of that for the filmmaker edition. So and yeah, if anyone has ever any questions, just, you know.

ask me, uh, you can email me at info at Dula big studio.com D U L A B I C. Um, or just look me up online. I'm very easily stockable online. So, yeah. Yeah. I found you. So, uh, there you go. Yeah. Uh, you know, I want to say thank you very much for coming on boy on. Uh, I will, everyone again, as always, I will link to everything we talked about in the show notes. Uh,

I will even link to the article that Booyan wrote for Jason Brubaker's website about how he made the film for $5,000. And I'll link to everything else, all the social media sites. But, you know, Booyan, I want to say thanks again for coming on. And, you know, again, I wish you the best of luck, you know, not only with Project Eugenics, whatever you're doing after Project Eugenics and all your future projects.

Thank you, my friend. And again, thank you for having me. And absolutely. Keep on rocking, my friend. Oh, thank you. You do the same, buddy.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 799. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.