You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Leigh Miller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.
If you're a longtime listener of the show, you probably heard me talk before about some of my study abroad classes. I take students all over the world to learn about sex and culture. It's really my favorite kind of teaching because students have the opportunity to really be immersed in another culture and learn in a way that you just can't replicate in a traditional classroom setting.
One of the things I love most is introducing students to sex educators, therapists, and researchers who work in a different country who can just give them a different perspective on sex to fundamentally change the way that they think about something. One of the many amazing people I've met over my many years of teaching these classes is Mariella Dehota, a psychologist and researcher from Amsterdam.
She and her colleagues at Company New Heroes conducted the largest ever study of sexual fantasies in the Netherlands and Belgium as part of a creative project titled "Yes, Please." They interviewed over 400 people about their fantasies and subsequently published a Dutch-language book about their findings under the same name. This project also resulted in various theater performances and a traveling erotic exhibition.
The goal of the project was to celebrate the erotic imagination and to break the taboos surrounding our fantasies and sexuality by bringing together art, storytelling, and science. As someone who has studied sexual fantasies extensively, I've actually learned a lot from Mariella. She's changed the way that I think about certain aspects of fantasy, so in today's show, we're going to revisit one of my conversations with her about fantasies that originally appeared back in episode 201.
We talked about how fantasies are similar or different around the world, how culture shapes our fantasies, as well as how to talk about your fantasies with a partner. I wanted to replay this conversation to give you a taste of the kinds of things that we cover in my study abroad courses. And perhaps it will inspire some of you to join me for a future course. My courses are mostly designed for students and professionals who work in the sex business in some way, but they're also open to anyone who just wants to travel the world with me and learn about sex.
In fact, I've had several podcast listeners join me for my previous courses. I teach these courses through Sexual Health Alliance, which is a global leader in sexuality education.
This year, we're actually offering four amazing study abroad opportunities. First up in April, we're going to be headed back to Amsterdam, which is one of my favorite cities in the world. And it's also a fascinating place to learn about sex and culture. For example, we meet with local sex workers to learn about what it's like to be a sex worker in a culture where their work is legal and government regulated.
We also meet up with psychologists like Mariella, who delivers an exceptional workshop on sexual fantasies. And of course, we do lots of fun cultural activities, from bike and food tours, to a trip to the sex museum, to a sunset cruise on Amsterdam's beautiful canals. Following that, we're headed to Prague in the Czech Republic.
It is one of the most picturesque cities I've ever been to. It's just absolutely gorgeous. And it's also an interesting place to learn about sex. While we're there, we're going to visit the Museum of Sexual Technologies, learn about the science of fetishes, and explore how the Czech Republic became the porn capital of Europe.
Later this year, we're headed to Reykjavik, Iceland, followed by Barcelona. It'll be our fire and ice tour, if you will. In Iceland, we'll visit the world-famous Pinas Museum, learn about Icelandic sexual culture, and take a field trip to see the Northern Lights, among other things. And in Barcelona, we're going to get an inside look at the ethical porn industry, explore cross-cultural approaches to sex education, take a boat ride out on the Mediterranean Sea, and so much more.
These courses will truly give you a different perspective on all things sex while truly immersing you in another culture and experiencing the best of what they have to offer. Also, these courses are just a heck of a lot of fun and you'll definitely make some new best friends. Even better, you don't have to do any planning. We take care of all of that for you. So what are you waiting for? Visit sexualhealthalliance.com and reserve your spot today to join us for one or more of these once-in-a-lifetime trips. I hope to see you there.
Alright, now let's dive into the world of sexual fantasies with Mariella. Stick around and we're going to jump in right after the break.
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Okay, Mariella, let's talk about what people fantasize about. In Tell Me What You Want, I found that there were really seven main themes that appeared in people's sexual fantasies. These included multi-partner sex, so for example, having a threesome or orgy, kink and BDSM, so eroticizing power differentials, novelty and excitement, you know, things, for example, like having sex in a public setting.
There were also themes of taboos, you know, doing something that is socially or culturally forbidden, the passion and romance fantasies where you're kind of meeting deeper emotional needs. There were the non-monogamy fantasies like being in some kind of open relationship or maybe committing infidelity. And then there were the what I call gender bending and homoeroticism fantasies where people are kind of exploring the boundaries of their sexual orientation or gender identity or expression in some way.
So in the research that you did on Europeans' sexual fantasies, did these same themes emerge as well? I want to focus first here on the similarities. So at a general level, was there some commonality in what people were fantasizing about in those interviews that you did?
Absolutely. In fact, your book came out while we were conducting our study. And at first, we just had all these interviews and we weren't sure what to do with them. And then your book came along and we were like, oh, let's start categorizing them. And we actually found that your data fit perfectly to our data. And so we actually found the exact same categories. There were a few fancies that did not entirely fit, but I guess we'll get to that in a moment.
But for the most part, we found the same types of fantasies. And also, it seemed for the most part in the same order of commonness or uncommonness. I mean, we cannot again, we cannot be exactly or 100% sure because we did interviews and there's, you know, we didn't do enough interviews to do a sort of quantitative study in the way that you did.
But for the most part, it seemed to be like a perfect match. And so that was really surprising to us. It greatly helped our study that your book came out. And so, yeah, we found that incredibly fascinating because you did your study in the US and we did our study in the Netherlands. And there are cultural differences, which I guess we'll talk about in a minute. But for the most part, it was just so similar.
Yeah, and I love to hear that because in my work, I was focused specifically on people who live in the United States. And since that book came out, I've done some cross-cultural work and have looked at people in different countries and places around the world. And I find that there is this surprising degree of commonality in the kinds of things that people are fantasizing about.
which suggests that there are some themes that just kind of seem to be universal. Now, that's not to say that our fantasies aren't influenced by our culture. They certainly are. Very much. Yeah, I very much view fantasies through a biopsychosocial lens. So, you know, you've got biological and evolutionary factors that might play a role. You've got your own individual psychology and your learned experiences and associations. And then you also have cultural and societal factors. All of these things play
play a role, but there's a lot more commonality than you might expect in sort of the general fantasy themes. So let's talk about the differences.
One of the things you found was that cuckolding did not emerge at all in your interviews. We did not hear it once, not once. It was incredibly surprising. Now, cuckolding, for people who might not be familiar with it, if you're a longtime listener of the show, I've done several episodes on cuckolding, and you should go check them out if you haven't listed them already. But basically, this is a fantasy or desire where people want to watch their partner having sex with someone else.
So it's sort of this voyeuristic fantasy, but it's very much centered around your partner's sexual exploits with a third person. Sometimes there's a kink or BDSM element to it. Sometimes there isn't. Sometimes it's mostly about your partner experiencing pleasure and there's like this compersion element to it where you're getting off on your partner's pleasure sometimes.
but that's just a little bit of background for people who aren't familiar with it. So it was so interesting to me that cuckolding never came up at all for you. Why do you think that is and what might account for that cultural difference?
Well, I think one of the great determinants of what our fantasies are about is whatever is taboo in our cultures. And so the forbidden is incredibly arousing for most people. I mean, this is, I guess, something that you also talk about in your book. And one of my favorite insights from your book was actually where you looked at the...
differences in fancies between Democrats and Republicans, which say a lot about what we find taboo and what we feel like we actually cannot fantasize about. And so I guess the differences that we found or the differences between our studies very much come from that, come from the fact that there's differences in what we think is taboo in the
which again might also be related to people's political views and preferences. And so the Netherlands is a rather egalitarian society for the most part. Something like cook-holding is just not really taboo here.
And I think, you know, there's also a greater prevalence or practice of non-monogamy in a lot of European cultures. And so, as you mentioned, it might not be as taboo to engage in something like cuckolding compared to the United States, where, you know, historically it's been very focused on this value of marriage, one man, one woman specifically being together. And so cuckolding is this very subversive practice.
take on what married couples are allowed to do sexually because we've been taught that you shouldn't have sex with anybody other than your partner. So any form of non-monogamy, I think, can become highly eroticized by people who are told that's something they can't do. And I find that, for example, in the US, Republicans have a lot more non-monogamy fantasies in general than do Democrats.
Now, I want to talk a little bit more about this because, as I mentioned, I've done some cross-cultural research since conducting the study for Tell Me What You Want. And one of the big differences I see is that people in Europe also report more kink and BDSM fantasies than people living in other parts of the world.
And my hypothesis there goes back to that element of the taboo, right? Because in cultures and societies that have more equality, I think people are eroticizing power dynamics precisely because they're more taboo. And that might also be why in the U.S., Democrats have more kink and BDSM fantasies than Republicans because the Democratic Party is more of a, you know,
based very much on these values of equality and a level playing field and you know power differentials are considered to be kind of inherently exploitative i think that's part of the reason why
We hear so much in the media these days about age gap relationships being inherently bad or taboo because age, you know, if you're an older partner with a younger person that you necessarily have more power and so you shouldn't be in those relationships, right? So we hear all of this talk about power dynamics and how power dynamics are bad in the popular media. But in people's fantasies, there's a lot of this that's playing out, you know, where they're eroticizing power differentials. So what do you think about this?
That is precisely why I just mentioned the egalitarianism in Dutch society, because I was going to mention that I think perhaps the most common fancy in the Netherlands were the fancies of power dynamics.
We heard so many of those. And very often people would be very ashamed of these as well. They would say, I don't know why I fantasize about these things. I don't know why I want to be dominated in my fantasies or why I want to be so submissive. But I just find it incredibly arousing. And I think it very much goes back to the fact that the Netherlands is a relatively egalitarian society, or at least where most people have relatively egalitarian views. And so the one or one of the main taboos are these power dynamics.
And I guess that's what makes these fancies so arousing to people.
Now, another difference you noted in your work is that almost no one that you interviewed reported having fantasies about celebrities. And in my work, although celebrities were not necessarily the partners people fantasized about most often, most people had had a celebrity fantasy before. And I wonder if that might just be because we asked about our questions in different ways. You know, I asked people not just what their favorite fantasy is, but hundreds of different people, places, and things that they might have ever fantasized about.
And by contrast, you gathered like more in-depth information about a very specific fantasy. So do you think this represents a cultural difference? You know, are people in the Netherlands just less focused on celebrities? Or is it just that celebrities don't tend to be part of people's kind of biggest or go-to fantasy? It's difficult to say. I was surprised that we did not hear more fantasies that had celebrities in it.
It might be possible that that is something cultural about the Netherlands. I'm not entirely sure. Something that we did notice is we conducted interviews in both the Netherlands and in Belgium. And we noticed that in Belgium, there were quite a few fantasies where people fantasized about religious figures, such as like Maria or Mother Teresa or...
You know, we called them like, quote unquote, holy women, women with some sort of religious status or religious role. And so we were wondering, like, could that be because Belgium is traditionally a lot more Catholic than the Netherlands? And so, again, it's difficult to say. It might have just been a random finding, but it seems that maybe celebrities have a less large role in Dutch culture than they do in the US. But who knows? Yeah.
Yeah, so interesting, you know, especially with the religious figures appearing in people's fantasies. I did find that that emerged in some of my participants as well. I don't recall having any Mother Teresa fantasies, but if there were fantasies about, you know, having sex with a nun or a member of the clergy or just having sex in a church, you know, there's sort of that subversion around religion, you know, doing something taboo, I think that is appealing to a lot of people. So it might not be that...
You know, when people are fantasizing about Mother Teresa, for example, that it's specifically about that particular individual or their status, you know, and being a well-known person. It's probably more about the religious taboo element of that.
Very much so, which I think is not the case with the celebrity fantasy, right? With celebrity fantasies, it's probably more about the novelty, the adventure of like, ooh, celebrity, I get to sleep with this person. Whereas, yes, in the case of the religious women, it's very much about breaking the religious taboo of having sex with this woman who's not really supposed to be having sex with you. Yeah, and I think also with the celebrity fantasies, it's partially about...
not just the novelty, but about, oh, if a celebrity were to want to sleep with me, that would be incredibly validating. You know, I think that there's sort of a self-esteem or ego boost that people might get from having a fantasy about this person who they perceive as unattainable, who has this high status. And if they wanted you, then that would feel, I guess, validating. But again,
With any given fantasy, there can be a lot of different reasons why people have it, and two people can have the same fantasy, but for very different reasons, which is, again, why it's important to collect that really detailed information about, you know, what is it that turns you on about this particular fantasy?
Now, in my own research, I asked people how they felt about their fantasies, both positively and negatively. And while most people said that their fantasies evoked positive emotions, there was also a lot of shame and embarrassment and anxiety. So what did you find in terms of how your participants felt about their fantasies? You know, we know the Netherlands is a more sex-positive culture than the United States in many ways, but was shame still prevalent among people when they were talking about their fantasies?
Very much so. We were very surprised by this as well, because I did not expect that here, to be honest. The Netherlands, I'd say sexually, people tend to be quite open. And yet there was so much sexual shame. So many people were incredibly ashamed of their fantasies and for different reasons. Many people were very ashamed of their fantasies because they felt like their fantasies were politically incorrect, right?
For example, women would say, I'm a feminist and yet I have these submission fantasies. Like, what does that say about me? Men would say, you know, I want to treat women with respect at all times. And yet in my fantasies, I'm incredibly rough with them. So again, what does that say about me? So people had a really hard time like interpreting their fantasies in these situations. We also noticed a lot of people were incredibly ashamed of their fantasies because they're really afraid of deviating from some social norm. We noticed a lot of people would...
share their fantasy and whenever they were quite ashamed of it because they felt like whatever their fantasy was about was quite weird, they would end with saying something like, "Oh, but Elisa don't fantasize about animals." So they would find something that to them was weirder to contrast that with their fantasy to sort of be like, "Ooh, I may be a little bit weird, but I'm not that weird, right?" Right? You know, they would look at you like, "Please confirm that I'm not a weirdo." So that was very noticeable.
And then we noticed a lot of people were incredibly, because they were so ashamed of their fantasies, they would not dare sharing them with their partners. And I thought that was such a shame to hear that so many people had never actually shared their fantasy because they were, you know, what does it say about me that I have these fantasies? And so we'd say or estimate is that we heard this sort of shame in at least like 25% of all people that we talked to.
Again, it's difficult to perfectly quantify given the way in which we conducted our data, but it was incredibly prevalent and quite sad, I found. Yeah, so it seems like the themes that are present in our fantasies, you know, there's a lot of universality of them, but also the shame that people feel about their fantasies.
That's also fairly universal, too. You know, people anywhere, even in a very sex-positive culture or society, might still feel shame about what it is that they fantasize about simply because they perceive that they are fantasizing about something they're not supposed to or that they think is deviant or...
or different from what other people are fantasizing about. And it's also often tied to what's going on in the culture right now. And, you know, in the last few years with the rise of the Me Too movement, I've heard a lot more women talking about how they're uncomfortable with their submission fantasies or forced sex fantasies because they believe politically that women are supposed to be empowered and to be in charge and
you know, to be more dominant in real life. And so they think that they're supposed to also be that way in their fantasies, but they're a very different person in the fantasy. And so it's really important in these cases to talk about, you know, who you are politically, socially. It's often very different from who you are in your fantasies. And those things don't have to align perfectly. You know, it's okay to fantasize about submission if you're a woman. It's okay to fantasize about
dominance too. You know, it's okay to fantasize about pretty much anything, but when people start to, you know, sort of perceive that tension between what they're fantasizing about and what their political values are, that often creates a lot of discomfort.
Exactly. And the interesting thing is, is that studies are showing that people who have more submission fantasies also tend to have more fantasies about domination. And so it goes both ways. But when people, let's say someone's a feminist, right? And she has these fantasies about domination, she's not going to think like, oh, gosh, what's wrong with me? But when she has these fantasies about submission, she will be like, oh, gosh, I'm a feminist. Why am I having these fantasies?
And again, like I would say, do not limit yourself. Just enjoy your fantasies. You can do anything and it doesn't always say something about you. In fact, it might just be, again, the erotic effect of the taboo. Yeah, so, so, so true. Now, I'm curious, does your research offer any insight into where people's fantasies come from? So, for example, did people often connect their fantasies to previous things that they've experienced in real life or
Were these fantasies that they were expressing as they were telling you about them, were they meeting unmet needs? So it's really about trying to find fulfillment of something that they're not getting in their current life. What can you tell us about the origins of our fantasies or why we have the fantasies that we do? One very common answer that we got in our little caravan is that people would say,
I have this fancy because of my fancy, I just want to be able to let go. So whatever was happening in the fancy, they're like, I want to be taken care of. I want people to do these things to me because I feel all these pressures in my daily life. And my fancy is the one part of my life where I'm able to let go, where I don't have to carry...
this big load where I don't need to feel these pressures. And so I think that very much speaks to how so many people just feel tremendous pressure in our society these days. And so they seek an outlet in their fantasy. So that was incredibly common, particularly among women, women saying, you know, I take care of
you know, I have a full-time job. I take care of the children. There's all these things I always have to do. I never have a moment for myself. And so my fantasies are that one part of my life where I can fully let go and have someone take care of me for once. So that was incredibly common. But then there were also fantasies, of course, where people would say, oh, I've had this fantasy since I was really young. It's evolved over the years, but it goes back to
fantasies I was having when I was much younger, or this fantasy goes back to an experience I had when I was much younger, and I still fantasize about that specific experience, or that was so inspiring what I experienced then that my fantasy has just built on that over the years. And so very often people would talk about the origin of their fantasy, but there are also cases where people just had no idea. They were like, this is in my mind.
Don't know where it came from. It feels completely random at times, but it's arousing and it's fun. And I like to think about it.
Yeah. And that's similar to what I found in my own work. You know, people have very different things to say in terms of where they think their fantasies come from. You know, some people could connect it very clearly to, I had this previous sexual experience that was great. And so there's kind of like this nostalgic element to it. For other people, it was like, I saw this in porn or read about it in a book or saw it in a movie. And it was just so intensely arousing that became the focus of my fantasy. For others, it was this
spontaneous, inexplicable urge. Like the thought just popped into their head. They have no idea where it came from, but it is stuck with them. You know, so our fantasies can come from very different places and it's not always helpful to try and connect them to a previous lived experience. You know, I think oftentimes with our fantasies, we focus on
On the search, you know, the origin of it. And sometimes that's counterproductive. We don't necessarily need to know where our fantasies came from in order to understand them, you know, to the extent that you can connect them to something else. And that gives you better self-understanding. Great. But it's OK to also not know the origin of it.
In fact, if I may add something to that, I think very often when people want to understand the origin of their fantasies, they focus specifically on the content. And sometimes that's not really going to give you any clues as to where your fantasy came from. It's often much more useful to focus on the emotional theme. So what is this fantasy telling me about my emotional needs? Because then very often you'll find that there is a need that's not being met and that is expressed through the fantasy.
And so your mind just has creative ways of building a scenario around that emotional need. But it's much more interesting you ask yourself that question is, is what is it that I truly desire and how is that expressed in my fantasies?
Yeah, I love that so much. And this is where I also think, and we're going to get to this more in just a moment, you know, how to communicate with your partner about fantasies, thinking about what it is that you want to feel in the fantasy. You know, what is this fantasy really getting at can actually be the basis for having more productive conversations about fantasies with partners because you're not getting so hung up on a particular sexual act or sexual sequence. It's more about creating that custom scenario to ensure everybody's getting what it is that they want to feel.
But before we get into the communication piece, I want to ask one more question about what it is that people are fantasizing about. Because in my own work, I find that people at different decades of life seem to have different fantasies. And specifically, people seem to become more adventuresome at midlife.
So, you know, as people enter their 40s and 50s, interest in non-monogamy and group sex and novelty and taboos, like all that stuff seems to rise. And then it decreases, you know, in the 60s and beyond. Another age-related effect I find is that for younger adults, you know, people in their late teens, early 20s have more kink and BDSM fantasies, and those actually decline over the life course.
The thing that I don't know from the research is whether that's actually representing real changes in people's fantasies over time or if those are just generational effects. Like, for example, with young adults being into kink and BDSM, is that just because they're the Fifty Shades of Grey generation? You know, and Fifty Shades didn't exist when older adults were...
were kind of at that age. So, you know, it could be a cultural or generational effect. It could also be a political effect since young adults tend to be more liberal and left-leaning in their political views. And so maybe it's eroticizing those power differentials, going back to what we discussed earlier. But I'm curious what you found in your work when you asked people, how did their fantasy change over time? Did you see that there was a lot of stability for people or a lot of change or both?
I mean, it's difficult to say because we didn't talk to that many people who were over, let's say, 55. I'd say we mostly spoke to millennials, people in the sort of, yeah, millennial age. But the older people that we spoke to did give me the impression that a lot of people, maybe around their mid-30s to mid-50s, reach a point in their lives where they're a lot more comfortable with their sexuality and what they like.
And so I think we saw more shame with younger people generally. So people reach a point where they're more comfortable with their sexual preferences and what they fantasize about. And so their fantasies often seem to be much more free. They seem to know what they like. They had specific themes they would go back to. There often would be a lot of kings, fetishes and so on. And then...
The people that we spoke to over 70 would often say, I've reached a point in my life where this is not so important anymore and my fancy have actually diminished. And so there seems to be that sort of peak period for sexual fancies, which for some people might start earlier, but I'd say most people we spoke to would be like from 35 onwards. And then when people get older, they reach a point where...
they say, hey, I'm in a different phase of my life now and sexuality is just not important in the way that it used to be. There were exceptions, of course, but that was my impression based on the research that we did. Yeah, and I think there really is some developmental time course to our fantasies. They evolve and change to meet our needs and where we are at a particular point in our life. But I guess the take home for listeners is if you're between your mid-30s and your 50s, enjoy those fantasies because that's when... The best is yet to come. Yes.
That's when they tend to be the most adventuresome. So let's talk a little bit about communicating about fantasies to close out this discussion. So you mentioned that some of your participants had never shared their fantasies with a partner, but how common was it? I mean, I know you don't have the quantitative data, but was it often the case that
some people had shared their fantasies or had acted on them, or for most people, it was just something that was only for themselves and they had never disclosed it to anyone else. And you were maybe the first person that they ever told about it. What did you find there? So often I was the first person that they ever taught their fantasies to, which often felt like a real honor when someone tells you their fantasy and they're like, oh, it's the first time I'm ever telling anyone. It's amazing. But again, often that was shame related. If people had never told their partner or anyone,
I also noticed that people who were sharing their fantasies with their partner often experience that as a really enriching part of the relationship. It can really take your sex life to the next level when you do share your fantasies and you're open with your partner about your sexual and emotional needs and desires, because those are often very much connected, of course.
So that was very noticeable. And I think sharing our fantasies is incredibly vulnerable. That's something that was so visible as well during the study that we did, that it also speaks to the level of vulnerability that you're comfortable with in your relationships.
And so if you are not particularly ashamed of your fantasies or maybe just a little bit, and yet you don't feel comfortable sharing that with your partner, it might actually be good to reflect on that. Like, why is it? Why do you not feel the space to have that conversation with your partner? And I noticed that the people who were able to share these fantasies with their partners and even act them out, it really like can increase your level of intimacy to be able to share them. You don't need to act them out. For a lot of people, that was an incredibly enriching experience as well to do that with their partner.
But you don't have to go there just to be able to get vulnerable like that with another person and to share your fantasies and to really have a very deep part of yourself be seen, I think is incredibly scary a lot of the time. But when you're able to have that with someone that can be really special. And so I would always encourage people to...
not be scared of that vulnerability and try to share your fancies with your partner. And if you're truly ashamed of what your fancies are about, then reflect on what that emotional need is that is expressed through the fantasies and use that as a starting point. Because very often I notice this when people share their fancies with me, when people feel like their fantasy is about something very strange.
Very often, the emotional need is incredibly understandable. Like the emotional need is never strange, right? And so that's a really good starting point if you're not sure about, you know, where to start sharing your fantasies with another person. Yeah, I love all of that. It lines up with what I've found in my own work. You know, on average, people report pretty positive outcomes when they share their fantasies with a partner. It can do a lot to improve a relationship, to build intimacy, to build trust, to
but it is a hard thing. And often the starting point is working on the self a little bit first and dealing with feelings of sexual shame that might be there. And so I think you provide some great practical tips on how you can kind of start the process of working through that. So it's just one final question for you. Do you have any tips on if people are going to share their fantasy with a partner? Let's say they've done that work on themselves. How can you bring this up to a partner and kind of put your fantasies out there?
Great question. So I would start by saying, well, I mean, I hope people listen to this. If there's one takeaway today, if you're feeling that shame around your fantasies, reflect on why you feel that shame and what is the emotional need that is expressed through the fantasy. If you start with that and you know the answer, you have the answers to those questions for yourself, that will make the talk with another person so much easier.
And then when to have the conversation. I think it can be great to bring it up when you're already having an intimate moment, you know, when the other person might actually become also become aroused by what you're sharing with them. But it really, I guess it depends for people when the best time would be to bring that up.
I would definitely think about how the other person is going to react. I've heard it go wrong, sadly. I remember someone shared a very much taboo fantasy with me and then went to their partner. And I later learned that the partner was really freaked out by that. That can, of course, happen. So try and think about...
You know, what would work in your relationship? What is the best time to have this conversation? How could your partner respond? And be prepared for that response also, because it's an incredibly vulnerable thing to share what your fantasies are. And the response could be negative. It's very good to keep that in mind. Right. So be prepared for that. And how are you going to respond if that response is negative? So I think it's it's, yeah, mentally prepare. But other than that, of course, I don't want to make people nervous.
Yeah, make people feel like, oh, this is an incredibly risky conversation to have. I think a lot of the time you'll find that the other person is incredibly happy to hear about your fantasies, because, again, it's such an intimate thing to share and it really builds trust. And so I'd say go for it.
Well, I think those are all great tips. And I would echo everything that you just said. Yes, you need to do that risk-reward analysis before you share something like this. It is possible it could go sideways, but most people, the good news, report that it went well, brought them closer to their partner, improved their relationship. And if they act on the fantasy that it met
or exceeded their expectations and they derive sexual satisfaction from it. So there's a lot of good things that can happen when we tap into those fantasies. Also, research shows that women who share and act on their fantasies report having more consistent and frequent orgasms. We also see that couples who share and act on their fantasies together are the most likely to report keeping passion alive. They're the most sexually satisfied. So there's lots of good things happening.
you know, that can happen here. But you do need to approach the conversation with care. And one other tip I would add is, you know, maybe start low and go slow. Like you don't necessarily have to get your most adventuresome fantasy out there right away, especially if you've never previously had a lot of conversations about sex or
fantasies with your partner before. So, you know, think of self-disclosure as this kind of slow process where there's this mutual exchange of information and you can use that as a way to build up trust and intimacy. And as trust and intimacy build, then you can start sharing those more adventuresome fantasies. Well, thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Mariella. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work?
Of course, they can learn more about the project. The research that we did is called Yes, Please. You can find it on via the website of the organization that I work with, which is called Company New Heroes. So if you Google Company New Heroes, Yes, Please, I'm sure you'll find our website. And again, we have a book which is in Dutch. Any Dutch listeners, the book is also called Yes, Please. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast. This is really great. Thanks a lot.
Yeah. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to have you here and I'll be sure to include links to everything in the show notes. Thank you for listening to keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sex and psychology at sex and psychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform, where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple podcasts, please consider becoming a sex and psychology premium subscriber to enjoy ad free listening for just three 99 a month.
You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.