Episode 375: What’s Your Erotic Persona?
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This is the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Think for a moment about how you would describe your personality in the bedroom. In other words, what is your erotic profile? What do you like to do sexually? What do you want or need from your partners?

What kinds of things turn you on and bring you pleasure? In today's show, we're going to dive into the topic of erotic personas. New research based on a survey of more than 100,000 adults sheds light on the four main types of erotic personas that exist. We're going to walk through each one of them and talk about how our erotic personas are similar to or different from our love languages.

We're also going to talk about why most people seem to end up in relationships with people who have different erotic personas than they do, as well as how to navigate those differences. We're also going to talk about tips for maintaining sexual compatibility in our relationships. My guest today is Nicholas Vallotta, a PhD student at the University of Washington who researches intimate relationships and sex. He is also the head of research at the couple's wellness platform, ARIA. You can find him online at mindonlove.com.

This is going to be another fascinating conversation that will give you insight into your own erotic persona. Before we get to it, here's today's top three segment presented by Field. Field is the dating app for the curious where you can really get to know yourself. Field wants to help us develop our self-understanding through exploring our desires and curiosities. And in fact, their data show that 62% of Field members of all of their sexuality and interests in their first year on the app.

To that end, our top three segments are designed to equip you with the knowledge you need to go on your own journey of sexual self-discovery. In these segments, my friend Ashley Weller, host of the amazing What's Your Position podcast, will be joining me and will be sharing our top three tips for exploring a different aspect of your sexuality. Today, we're diving into the subject of kink. So, Ashley, are you ready to talk about exploring your kinky side? Giddy up. All right, lay it on me. What is your first tip for exploring kink?

Start with everyday objects. Kink is all about sensory experiences and we don't all have bull whips and floggers in our house. I do, but we don't all. Speak for yourself. Yeah, I know. Start with things that you can use in your home, like ice cubes.

or a scarf, or a tie, or a wooden spoon, and use these things to see if you can ignite pieces of your kinky self before you invest hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on high-leather, high-quality goods.

Yeah, I love that. There are lots of things that you can repurpose around the house and especially something like ice cubes. You know, if you got a freezer, you got ice cubes and that can be a good place to start when it comes to exploring something like sensory play. So my first tip was kind of along the lines of, you know, start out gradually and explore.

It was actually to start out exploring kink during solo play, right? So that you can experience those different sensations because kink doesn't necessarily have to be experienced only in the context of a partnered interaction, right? I know classically, when we think about kink, we're thinking about, you know, somebody tying somebody else up and so forth, but there are so many ways you can experience kink on your own. For example, you could just try wearing a blindfold. You could try dripping some wax from a body safe candle on your skin.

Maybe you might even try tying yourself up a little bit in a safe way, right? There's all kinds of things you can do to explore on your own. And as you do this, take an inventory of what feels good, what you like, what you want more of, and also what you don't like.

So you can use that as a great starting point for just better understanding your own kinky interests. Now, related to this, you know, sometimes we don't know what we like until we try it. And in fact, in their state of dating report that I worked on with Field, they found that 47% of members, Field members, discovered a new kink or desire since using the app. So sometimes it's just about embedding yourself in a different community or trying something new alone where you can really learn about and expand and explore your sexuality.

To that note, I'm going to give you my number two because my number two was to find your people. Online forums, podcasts, and apps like Field can actually help you find space that can offer guidance, advice, a sense of community, a sense of

normalcy for the kinks that you are trying to experience. And immersing yourself in these discussions can actually help you understand what about that kink is the most exciting to you. Yeah, and finding your people is so, so important. And I think for a lot of different reasons, you know, it can also help to normalize your fantasies, desires, and interests by understanding, recognizing that you're not alone, right? So that can be another big

benefit of finding your community, but you can also learn from them. They might be a little bit more experienced with some of these things. And so let's just say there's a learning curve when it comes to cake. And so learning from people who are very experienced with this can be very helpful and can also to ensure that you're exploring it in the safest way possible.

So along those lines, my next tip was to communicate before, during, and after with your partner, right? Communication, the importance of it cannot be understated when it comes to kink. And so you want to discuss beforehand where you set your boundaries and you sort of pre-negotiate everything. But

Not all the communication happens beforehand. You also still need to communicate during the act itself and check in with one another. And that check-in can be with nonverbal language and so forth. You know, the check-ins might look a little bit different from person to person, situation to situation. But then you also need to have the aftercare where you talk about what you liked, what you enjoyed. Would you want to try something different next time so that you can really be on the same page about all of this?

I really love the stoplight ideology of green means this is great, keep going. Yellow means I'm reaching my threshold, but we don't need to stop just yet, maybe dial it back. And red means full on, we need to stop, take a breath, take a pause, take a moment. We might be able to revisit it later, but I love the analogy of before, during, and after you can have all of these different communications and conversations and keeping it as simple as red, yellow, green, which is a concept that most of us can understand.

My last one was to immerse yourself in a kinky space. If you want to see kink in action, go to a BDSM club, go to a kink club, go to a kink event, even if it's not a dungeon or a BDSM club and just immerse

watch, go from scene to scene and really see what resonates with you. The kink and BDSM communities are some of the kindest, most open, most helpful individuals I have ever encountered. And they would absolutely love for you to come and watch what they do to understand what speaks to you.

Yeah, I think that's a great tip. And my final one was for people to learn about and understand this concept of risk-aware consensual kink. And basically the idea behind it is that there's some level of risk inherent in any kind of sexual activity. And the idea here is that you can't totally eliminate all risks. Like you're always going to encounter some level of risk when you engage in sexual activity,

But the idea here is that you're going to be informed of those risks so that you can take steps to minimize them as much as possible. Right. So and also it is important for helping people to recognize that people have different risk tolerances and thresholds. And one isn't necessarily better than the other. You know, some people can just take on a higher level of risk than others. They're more comfortable with it. So it's about understanding the risk profile that is acceptable for you.

Absolutely. Some people have a higher pain threshold that doesn't make them better than you. It just makes them different. And embracing those differences is kind of kinky. Yeah. And it's also about, you know, helping to identify partners that you're going to be compatible with. So thank you so much for sharing your tips for exploring your kinky side with us, Ashley. That wraps up our top three segment presented by Field. A huge thank you to our friends over at Field for sponsoring the segment and helping us to expand our horizons in the dating world and on this show.

We have much more ahead in today's episode, so stick around and we're going to jump in right after this short break. Are you curious about sex and psychology in other countries? Join me and Sexual Health Alliance as we expand your knowledge through their study abroad programs. Let's explore different cultures, engage in immersive learning experiences, and collaborate with international experts while traveling to amazing places and having fun with students from all around the world.

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There are four study abroad options throughout 2025. Check them out at sexualhealthalliance.com. Come meet fantastic people and be at the leading edge of sexual health education with Sexual Health Alliance. Spots for 2025 are available now. So visit sexualhealthalliance.com to secure yours today and embark on an exciting global adventure to study sex and psychology with me. Hi, Nicholas, and welcome to the show.

Oh, thanks for having me, Justin. Well, thanks so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today about erotic personas. But before we get into that, can you please tell my audience a little bit about who you are and the brief story of how you got into sex research?

Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, I got my feet wet at the University of Washington in Seattle. Wasn't going there for sex research at all. Uh, actually was pushed into like business school, had very like ardent parents about, you need to have like a very generalizable degree. And then just kind of fell into it with a professor there named, uh,

Pepper Schwartz, who is fairly well established in the field and like has appeared on some TV shows across her lifetime. And working with her, I started looking at things like sexuality and aging. That was really her purview at the time I was working with her. So I

I began looking at it as a life course form of research in terms of sexuality, if you will. And then we did this article that was on online dating and it was really formative for me to

do research on something that I had both like personal experience with, as well as just this fascination of how technology can intersect with something so bodily, something so material and also something so relational that you think of relationships as in real life events and exchanges, but these, um,

technological moderators were changing the game. After that, I was kind of hooked into this like,

thought loop of what is technology doing to our relationships. And around that time, I was going to grad school also at the University of Washington, doing some research here and there, but really trying to figure out what I wanted to do in the field. Then a couple of guys hit me up at one point, apparently got a reference to have a meeting with me to consult with them. They had this idea.

I had no clue what the idea was. We all just went into this call blind, apparently. And they levied this, I don't know, proposition of having something called couples wellness as an industry. And I'd never heard of that term, but I was excited by it. And

And I was not only interested in the industry, but also the endeavor of creating an economy that seeks to enhance relationships and intimacy rather than simply make people connect with one another or give them therapy for the problems that may exist in their relationship currently. And

As we started talking on this call, it became evident that they had good ideas, I had good ideas, and we just synergized. And I happened to be the first person that they brought on. And so really from ground zero with Aria, I was creating something that I don't think anyone had a blueprint for. And we really had to test the waters for a while. But now we're three years in, have thousands of users and

Yeah, it's been really cool to see the results of all that work.

Yeah, and it sounds kind of serendipitous, like you got a little sidetracked by sex research, like this happens to a lot of us, that we weren't intending to go into this field. But once we discovered it, we found that we had a really strong interest in it, and the rest is history. So we're going to be talking all about erotic personas today. Now, as my listeners know, I always like to start with definitions so that we're all on the same page. So when you use the term erotic persona...

What do you mean by that? And how is this similar to or different from the concept of the love languages?

Oh, you brought up something I have beef with, which is love languages, but we can go into that separately. So the erotic persona is a spectrum of traits that tend to cluster in certain quadrants. And it is a cohesive understanding of where you source your eroticism, what turns you on and what's likely to turn you off. And it's a spectrum of traits that tend to cluster in certain quadrants.

There can be components of intimacy inside your erotic persona, but it's primarily focused on that erotic, more sexual side of your personality. And what we did was when creating Aria needed to figure out how do we curate content to people to enhance their sex and intimate lives, right? And...

I didn't really know the best way to sort people or to develop an algorithm. So I went to experts in the field, sociologists, psychologists, even body workers and experts who were coaches,

Got a lot of guidance in Tantra. Lots of different fields were incorporated into my understanding of what eroticism was. And from this in the field kind of research I was doing through interviewing all these different people and workshopping different ideas with them, we came to four basic ideas.

quadrants, if you will, that you can score inside of. And you're probably going to have a higher score in one quadrant, but it doesn't mean that you don't have traits from the other three. Thanks for sharing all of that. And you mentioned in response to my question that you had some beef with the love languages. So tell me a little bit about that. Ooh, okay. So...

There was a sweeping review of a bunch of the research on love languages released, I believe, last year. I don't remember the authors' names at this moment in time, but happy to send them your way. And...

they did a very expansive sort of meta-analysis of all of the projects that looked at love languages in an empirical manner. And what they were finding was there was no distinction between different love languages and that some of the basic premises of love languages actually had no empirical evidence to back them up. So for instance, the idea that you have one primary love language and

that was debunked. The idea that if you spoke another partner's love language better, your relationship satisfaction would increase, that was debunked. And then they also were like, are there discrete love languages even? Is there quality time versus affirmations versus gifts? And what they found is there aren't even discrete love

understandings from person to person on what a love language is. So by definition and also by practice, love languages has really not held up to empirical tests. And one of the reasons I brought it up in context with the erotic personas is this was from the ground up very much a data conscious personality inventory that we wanted to make sure that

we could actually validate internally and not go off of intuition or our own small samples that we may have interviewed. Yeah. And I'm totally on the same page with you about love languages. And the research you were talking about was actually conducted by my colleague, Dr. Sharon Flicker, who I had on the show previously, where we dove into all of that. And yeah, that's the problem with the love languages idea is that it wasn't born out of science.

And when people have gone and tried to test it empirically, they haven't found much support for a lot of the core tenants of that idea. So I appreciate your attempt here to really try and bring some empiricism into this and to try and, as you said, build something from the ground up with data. So let's walk through the erotic personas one by one.

The most common erotic persona that you identified, possessed by 36% of adults, is what you called the adventurer. So what are some of the characteristics of this persona?

Oh, this is funny because you're starting with the adventure and I always end with the adventure. This is kind of a fun reframing of how I speak about the erotic personas, but they are people who really like to explore different sides of eroticism. Their key characteristic is novelty seeking, is this idea that growing together means experimenting together, and they can have a shadow side that

a bit of like a sexual people pleaser, if you will, because of their excitement at all these different types of eroticism that if their partner has a really strong tendency towards one type of play, the adventurer may just sort of go with it because they're having a good time. It's not that they don't like it, but

Again, their core erotic style is novelty seeking. And so over time, if they're relying on this one play style with their partner for too long, monotony sets in and their sexual satisfaction is more likely to decline. So it's really important for adventurers to...

not simply go with the flow, but to advocate for exploration and bring their partner into that exploration with them. They also may be more interested in kink, but that may just be the intuitive leap there that if you're interested in experimenting, you're more likely to be interested in facets of sexuality that other people may not touch.

Yeah, that makes sense. Now, the next most common persona shared by 30% of adults is the director. So what's that persona all about? The director is perhaps the easiest to understand because they represent a style of eroticism that we see all the time in popular culture, whether TV, movies, books, where it's

sexuality is spontaneous. It's fairly linear. You get turned on, you're aroused, then you want to have sex. So you initiate sex, you have sex, you have an orgasm, and then that's sex to you. That's where you source your eroticism is this very linear fashion of

of sex equals from start to finish desire, arousal, and then an orgasm. And they're also more likely to prioritize frequency. So being driven by the act of penetrative sex oftentimes, although oral sex does show up a lot of times with these people when they request different play styles on our platform, they are very interested in the visual aspects of sex as well.

They love the sorts of ways you can enhance sex through lingerie, sexting, videos, pornography. So really a director in both senses of the word, right? Like the director of visual cues for sex, as well as a director, I'm direct to sex sort of use of that word. So it's a little play that we came up with.

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Oh, you have a good idea of the romantic. Okay. More on that later. But the romantic is really interested in this emotional connection that they're going to have with their partner during sexual encounters. And they're most fulfilled when they feel like their partner sees and understands them. There's a connection between maybe mind and body for them that doesn't necessarily exist for a lot of other people.

And they also prioritize affirmations and this sense of,

Foreplay is always going on, right? Like if you are not complimenting me, if I do not feel satisfied in this relationship, if I have a really rough day at work and I'm stressed out and I can't really get my head into this connective space with you, they're much less likely to be interested in sex in general. So where the director really sources a lot of their eroticism on visual cues and is very...

linear. The romantic is very circuitous and circular and fluid and contextual and verbal. And finally, we have the connector persona, which was less common and was shared by about 8% of adults. So what's this one about?

Yeah, this has really been difficult to put a finger on. And there's a reason because we don't usually talk about sex in a way that resonates with this style. So it can be hard to measure people who are a connector. They tend to source their eroticism through stimulation. And

And that has to do with the senses. So smells, touch, taste, et cetera. So they're more likely to be turned on or turned off in extreme amounts, extreme quantities here if they get the right energy

touch across their neck or they smell the right scent on their partner or they're more likely to have something like a mouth orgasm where maybe they're brushing their teeth one day and that sensation suddenly just tickles their spot and they kind of have a body orgasm reaction to it and

They are also going to have issues getting turned on if those stimuli aren't there or they're overstimulated so they can't focus on any given sensation. So play styles like sensory deprivation and sensory play work really good for connectors and also making sure that you set up an environment that is immersive for them to enjoy.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all of that and breaking down these erotic personas. Now, I know we mentioned the love languages concept a little bit earlier and how some of the research shows that there isn't just one primary or dominant way that most people prefer to receive love.

sometimes we want it expressed in different ways at different times. And I would imagine that it might be the same when it comes to sex and that there might be some fluidity or flexibility in our erotic persona. So for example, there might be periods of your life where what you want or need is more of that kind of romantic style that focuses on connection and other periods where maybe what you want and need is more of the novelty and adventure.

And this is something that I see in my own research on sexual fantasies, where there seems to be this shift that takes place for many people, where when they're younger, there tends to be more emphasis on romance and connection. And as they approach midlife, there tends to be more focus on adventure and variety. So I was just curious for your take on this and whether you think it's possible for people to have characteristics of more than one erotic persona or for them to experience shifts in their persona over time.

One hundred percent. This is all a spectrum. It's context dependent. It's dependent on not only where you are in your life course, but also where your relationship is in your life course. So when I've looked at the data and broken it down by, for instance, duration of your relationship.

I find that newer relationships are actually less interested in exploring sort of the kinkier play styles. And they're more interested in exploring situations

sensuality, romance, intimacy building. And then when I look at an older cohort, I see that it's the inverse, right? Where they're more interested in kind of like finding new horizons with sex. Maybe they've tried a lot of different things together already.

And I think it's also dependent on the structure of your relationship too, right? You might have a polyamorous or open relationship where with one person you...

really leaning into your romantic because they just give you all of the affirmations. They make you feel all cuddly and warm inside and you can't resist that. But then you have another partner who's totally into just like penetrative sex. And every time you're going with them, you have orgasms and it's great. And you always have sex when you're with them. And so maybe you're kind of like going between a romantic and director in that kind of dynamic. But yeah,

It's not a static profile and it's not something that people should, even if they get a label, say I am only a director because again, you're probably going to score across the different personas. You're going to have traits in the different quadrants, even if your traits tend to cluster mostly in one of them.

Yeah, and I totally agree with that and had the same sort of thought when I was reading through these personas and thinking about this before the show is that it's like, yeah, I see different aspects, like some of these aspects, all of them in myself to some extent or another. So yeah, I think there's a tendency for us to want to

just kind of put people in neat and tidy little boxes because it helps us to make sense of the world and to understand it better but when it comes to something like sensuality and eroticism and your erotic persona it's not just this one simple easy to understand static thing over the course of your life because who we are sexually erotically continually evolves and changes

based on our developmental life course, based on the stage of a relationship that we're in, based on whether that relationship is monogamous or non-monogamous, like so many different things and factors can influence how we experience eroticism and what our erotic needs are at a given point in time.

Yeah, absolutely. And I am always so interested in investigating all of the different ways I can segregate the data and look at it differently and understand how these personas may shift across different groups of people.

And it's amazing that we have so much data. And that's one of the reasons why we're finally confident to release reports these days, because we've collected over 100,000 people's erotic persona, psychodemographics. So it's a new frontier. It's super interesting and thrilling.

Now, something else that we see in this research is that most couples, when you're looking at people, I'm assuming maybe in monogamous relationships, most couples don't have the same erotic persona. And that makes total sense to me because I've certainly seen it happen many times where people end up in relationships with a partner who just has totally different turn-ons or desires. So if you're in a relationship with someone who has a different erotic persona than you, how do you navigate that successfully?

It's a good question. And I think the first is to lean on the framework of your erotic persona and bring your partner into that framework with you. So, you know, I spent some time bashing the love languages, but here's what I do like about the love languages is it provides a

a communication style, an entire language for you to use with your partner and express your needs in ways that they can understand and are accessible to them.

And I'm hoping that a framework like The Erotic Personas does the same thing, where you can bring a partner into, hey, babe, I just found out I'm really high score adventurer. And what's really interesting, as it says, I...

am most likely to get turned on when I'm trying something new. Isn't that cool? Should we like try something together? You know, it gives a very easy way into something that oftentimes is completely untouched in conversations with partners. And when we do talk about sex, it's often so

action-oriented rather than oriented around the interiority of what's going on. And I also like that component of the Roradi personas is that, sure, they explain some behaviors that may be common across different personas, but it's really more about a dialogue of self and partner.

and how you can play on different dynamics to elicit more desire between the two of you and keep that sexual flame alive for longer. So I think...

really focusing on that interiority rather than saying, hey, we haven't had sex in a week. Like, what's going on? Or, hey, I haven't, you know, orgasmed with you in a while. That's something really important to me. Not that those conversations shouldn't happen, but rather that the erotic personas helps get underneath those conversations in an easier way to say, hey,

Orgasms are really important to me because they tell me that this sex is pleasurable to you. And then your partner can explain to you maybe that orgasms aren't the way that they feel the most pleasure during sex. It's actually the emotional connection or it's that you tried something new or the sensations that you experienced. So again, like.

It's a conversation to be had in a collaborative environment rather than sort of a parsing out of you aren't doing this for me or I need more of this from you.

Yeah, and I think that's the value of the erotic persona's idea is that it gives you this better sense of your own psychology behind your eroticism and your partner's. And then you can use that as a language to communicate about this and potentially bridge any divides that are there. And that's also where I still see some value in the love languages concept, even if it's not empirically backed, is that if it gives people a language to communicate about their needs and what they want in a relationship,

and that is something that is helpful to them, then who am I to say that they shouldn't use that concept or idea? So yeah, I think anything that gives people kind of the language and helps them communicate is certainly valuable. Now, based on the fact that most people seem to end up in relationships with someone who has a different erotic persona, it suggests that we seem to have an issue identifying sexual compatibility early on.

And I think one of the main reasons for this is that when you're in the honeymoon phase of your relationship, the sex is usually easy. And even if you have different desires and needs, you have that heightened attraction and connection that can compensate for it. But once that starts to wane, the differences really start to become more important.

So we'd probably do well to pay more attention early on to signs of potential long-term sexual compatibility. So I just wondered if you had any thoughts on this in terms of how we can go about better identifying potential long-term partners. I agree and have a slight caveat on what the question is proposing because first to get to the caveat, I do think sexual compatibility is important

less about a personality type and more about a mindset that you take with your partner. And you can be compatible with most people sexually if you have a growth-oriented, collaborative, experimental mindset with that partner. So I would say, one,

going into new relationships. If you are single out there,

This is a really great time for you to open your mind and be more expansive about what you think sex is or what sex could be with any given person, because there will come a time in a relationship where you will have a different definition of what pleasurable sex is from your partner, and you will have to grow together. And that is compatibility in my sense of the word. And I think erotic personas...

coming into play is, again, a helpful language early on to start talking about those places where you source eroticism without it being weird, if for lack of a better word. I mean, I think about how people...

When I've gone on dates even, and you know, I'm a zillennial. So I'm talking to a bunch of people who are relatively newer relationships or like kind of dipping their toe into dating for the long term or whatever. And I'm always surprised at how quickly people offer up

their attachment style, their trauma, whatever it is, right? Like they're trying to get you into this like psychodemographic profile in date one. And sometimes I'm just kind of like, okay, that was a lot for me to have to like take on within meeting you and trying to just suss out if I like you, right?

And I think erotic personas is different in the sense that it's playful, that it really is about creating a space of eroticism, which by nature is this mysterious, fun entity in your relationship. It's kind of like...

the little like evil angel on your shoulder that isn't evil but is just kind of like saying things that make you giggle that you can't tell other people. It's like this little thing and finally you have words to be like, "Oh, I'm going to talk about this little loop I have going on in my brain of what I find exciting about you and what I'm looking for in a sex life with a partner."

So I like it in that sense for new relationships because it's a lot less jaded and dragged down by the baggage of like trauma or this like family systems where you have to go into the whole history of why you turned out this way. Instead, you can kind of just talk about those fun aspects of what, you know, lights your spark.

And that's a cool conversation to have when you're meeting somebody rather than a loaded one.

I agree with that. And I also agree with your perspective on sexual compatibility. As I often like to say, sexual compatibility isn't something that you just establish once and you set it and forget it. Rather, it's something that needs to be maintained. And so you need to have that growth-oriented mindset because odds are at some point you're not going to be on the same page anymore about sex, even if you're on the same page now. So it's just a different mindset shift when it comes to thinking about sexual compatibility.

So thanks so much for helping us to better understand our erotic personas today. I'm looking forward to continuing our conversation in the next episode and diving into the latest sex and relationship trends. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work? Absolutely. So my social handle is on Instagram at

at mind underscore on underscore love because mind on love was already taken. But on TikTok, it's no underscore. It's just at mind on love. And then website, same title. And I work for the company Aria, which you can absolutely check out at aria.fyi. And I'll be sure to include links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here. Oh, thank you for having me, Justin. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.