Episode 377: Are You Having “Duty Sex?”
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This is the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Think about the last few times you had sex. What was your main motivation or reason for doing it?

Many of you are likely to say it was because you felt horny or wanted to experience pleasure. Or maybe it was because you wanted to feel closer to your partner or to relieve some stress. There are myriad reasons why people have sex. But a common motive that we don't talk about enough is when people have sex out of a sense of duty or obligation. So in today's show, we're going to be diving into the concept of duty sex.

We're going to talk about what it is, who's most likely to do it, and what a new study says about women's experiences with duty sex, including how it is linked to sexual satisfaction, sexual pain, sexual trauma, and more. My guest today is Kate Metcalf, a clinical psychology PhD student at the University of Texas at Austin and a member of Dr. Cindy Meston's Sexual Psychophysiology Laboratory.

Kate's research focuses broadly on sexual agency and motivation across different contexts and life stages. She has published research on transactional sexual relationships, as well as more traditional intimate relationships. This is going to be another fascinating episode. Before we get to it, here is today's Level Up Your Love Life segment presented by Masterclass. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best.

Masterclass recently launched the Art of Sex Appeal class. Featuring Shan Boodram as the instructor, this class aims to teach you how to flirt better and ignite your confidence, how to define your desires in dating and in the bedroom, and how to communicate about them, tips for more fulfilling sex, and so much more. I highly recommend this class because I think you'll get a lot out of it. In our Level Up Your Love Life segments, we're going to highlight key lessons from the course that can help you in cultivating a hotter and healthier sex life.

Today, we're diving into the topic of sexual communication, which is super important for both getting what you want and having great sex. So let's dive in. One of the big topics that Chan brings up in her class is how to have healthy conversations about sex with your partner. And this is one of the hardest things for a lot of us to do. Many of us only ever talk about sex when there's a problem. And so that leads every conversation to become this really fraught discussion where anxiety is super high and there's a lot of conflict.

And then the next time you go to talk about sex, the defenses go up, everyone is in fight or flight mode, and it's just not a productive conversation. So Shan's advice, which I love, is to make talking about sex as fun as actually having sex. So how do you do that? Well, start by thinking about what it is that makes for great sex and how you like to feel during it. So we're talking about things here like feeling relaxed and free, being open and curious, and having fun.

What you don't want to feel is shame, anxiety, or criticism, which is what a lot of people feel when they talk about sex because it's only coming up in the context of problems. So think about how you can introduce more fun conversations about sex. For example, this might involve playing a sexy card game that prompts you to talk about your turn-ons. Or maybe it's watching a steamy movie or TV show together and then talking about it afterwards. Wasn't it hot when that happened? Or what did you think of that scene?

Or maybe it's having a conversation where you each share your favorite sexual experience that you've ever had together. I particularly like that one because it's not just fun, it's also validating. And we know from the research that one of the keys to having productive conversations about sex with a partner is to make one another feel desired, validated, and safe. So start bringing up sex outside of the problem areas and start having some fun talking about it because that's going to make it easier to start talking more about what it is that you really want.

Now, when it comes to talking about what you want, Shan also has some great advice on this, which is to focus less on saying the things that you don't want and more on the things that really get you going. As an example, let's say your partner typically spends a lot of time kissing and nibbling on your ear, but it's not really your thing. And instead, you'd really like it if they focus that attention on your neck or maybe somewhere else on your body.

Instead of saying, "I really hate it when you put your tongue in my ear," try instead saying something along the lines of, "I really love it when you kiss and lick my neck. It feels so good and drives me wild."

This is another piece of advice that's backed up by the research. For example, the Gottmans, who were actually my very first guests on this podcast, talk about the importance of stating our positive needs more than our negative needs. So we're going to lead with the things that we really want. Here's what I'd like to try. Here's what really turns me on. Instead of saying things like, I don't like this. This is terrible. I never enjoyed that.

This is a much more inviting way of telling your partner what you want that isn't going to set the stage for a big fight. One other thing I wanted to say on the topic of sexual communication is that the way you talk about sex might differ depending on when and where you're having this conversation. So for example, if you're talking about it in the moment while you're having sex, focus on what it is that you actually need in that moment. So things like, touch me there, keep doing that, or I really like it when you do this.

During sex might not be the best time to bring up a problem area or to share a fantasy for the first time. Now, outside of the sex act itself, you have a lot more options. So for example, if you've just had sex, you might try saying, that was great. And oh, do you remember the time when we did this? Wouldn't it be fun if we tried that again sometime? Or maybe you'll say, oh, I had this really hot dream about you last night. Can I tell you about it?

There are all kinds of ways to get the conversation started and keep it positive and healthy. All right, that wraps up today's Level Up Your Love Life segment presented by Masterclass. A huge thank you to our friends over at Masterclass for sponsoring this segment and helping us all to learn and grow. We have much more ahead on today's show, so stick around and we're going to jump in right after this short break. Do you ever find yourself dreaming about a career where you get to talk about sex and psychology all day long?

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Hi, Kate, and welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having me on. Well, thank you so much for joining me. So you are a member of Dr. Cindy Meston's research lab, and Cindy was a guest on my show all the way back in episode 50. It's hard to believe it was more than 300 episodes ago, but we discussed her fascinating research on all of the different reasons why people have sex. And she's a

And she and her colleagues found that there are at least 237 distinct reasons. And of course, things like pleasure and horniness, wanting to have fun and expressing love were pretty high up there on the list. But among the many reasons that people reported for having sex was out of a sense of duty or obligation. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that. What does it mean to have duty sex and what might that look like in real life?

Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Messon did a great job kind of capturing all of these various different reasons as did Dr. Buss. And one of those, like you said, is duty sex, having sex out of a sense of obligation or duty to your partner. Really at its core, usually it's fears of my partner will get mad at me if I don't have sex. What if they leave me because I'm not having sex properly?

as much as they would like. And so it's kind of this like insecurity that emerges with it. And we see duty sex across all genders, all sexual orientations. Most of the focus has been on women and we see it higher in older women because

Although, again, men can engage in duty sex, women can, and it kind of varies there. And it kind of varies as to whether all sexual encounters are going to be duty sex. You know, sometimes one encounter is duty sex and sometimes most sexual encounters that someone is having with their partner is duty sex.

So you mentioned that duty sex is sometimes related to insecurity, and I saw that come up as well in the paper that you wrote about this. And I was wondering, is that related to attachment insecurity or is it just related to broader feelings of insecurity within the relationship? Our research specifically didn't look at attachment styles and how that might influence duty sex frequency.

I mean, if I had to put money on it, I imagine it would be. But I do think... I would too. Yeah. But I do think if we take a step back, there is this kind of insecurity in terms of my partner might not want to be with me if I'm not having as much sex. And whether that's like a specific thing said by the partner or whether that's just an assumption the partner is making based on all of these rules that society puts on us about sex and the frequency of which we should be having sex...

It's tough to say, and I think it varies, but certainly there is kind of this insecurity there that kind of drives duty sex.

Yeah, and what you said there I think highlights how duty sex can be a somewhat complicated phenomenon to talk about and to understand and describe because sometimes maybe there is some kind of explicit or overt pressure from one's partner to engage in sexual activity. But other times that feeling of pressure might be self-imposed because for example, if it's coming from attachment anxiety and a fear of abandonment, that's a very different thing than your partner explicitly pressuring you into having sex.

But this concept of duty sex, I think, will raise questions for a lot of my listeners. Like, for example, how is this different from sexual coercion? So when we're talking about duty sex, are we talking about sex that someone has out of a feeling of obligation, but that is otherwise consensual?

Yeah, and really that is what we are looking at. This is possibly unwanted, but consensual sex, another way to put it, that kind of overlaps with duty sex and sexual compliance. But really, we're taking a step back and looking at the motivation that's driving that sexual behavior at its core obligation, duty. But it is still quote unquote consensual, which is, again, this little bit of a gray area as to where it falls in this line of coercion.

I also think it's important to note that there are a variety of reasons why people might engage in duty sex and it might partially be

man, I haven't had sex with my partner for a week and I probably should, but also maybe it would feel nice to feel close to them in that moment. And so it's not that someone can just have duty sex and not look for anything else out of it. So it's not inherently a problematic behavior, but for some women it is, you know, one of the findings we found was for women who had previous sexual violence experiences, um,

particularly an intercourse-based sexual violence experience, they are more likely to engage in duty sex. And this is even when we control for differences in sexual function. So on some level, these women with past violence histories feel that they can't say no to sex, they can't refuse sex, or maybe they're just in more coercive relationships to begin with, where they really feel like the consequences of saying no are dangerous. So in sum, it varies.

Yeah, it definitely varies. And I appreciate you bringing up that distinction between consenting to sex and wanting sex. I think it's a really important point. And my colleague at the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Zoe Peterson, has written a lot about this particular topic.

And anytime I talk about it, sometimes I encounter some confused reactions, right? Because there's this assumption that all sex that is wanted is consensual and all sex that is unwanted is non-consensual. But wanting to have sex and consenting to sex are two different things. You know, you can consent to sex that you don't want for various reasons, and you can want sex but not consent to it.

for various reasons as well. So yeah, wanting sex, consenting to sex, I think it's important for us to highlight that these are two different things. And in a lot of the research that's out there, they tend to conflate one with the other and assume that all unwanted sex is non-consensual. And so, you know, it creates problems in the literature when we start to assume that consenting to sex and wanting sex are one and the same.

Right. And the outcome of the experience matters too. Like what might begin as duty sex? Oh man, like I don't want my partner to be angry. Might result in like genuine enjoyment and pleasure and you feel closer to your partner and you got to cuddle after and that was great.

And then for others, it might lead to resentment or frustration. When we take a step back, for some women, desire is spontaneous and they just want to have sex. But for other women, it's not spontaneous. If we look at Rosemary Besson's and her colleagues' model of sexual desire and sexual function,

Sometimes it is receptive where they might do it solely for this emotional reason. The sexual stimuli comes into play once things start going. They start to feel this arousal and then they feel this desire. OK, now I want to engage in sex and now I'm ready to go. So it might have started as I should probably do this. But then in the end, they actually experience pleasure. And I think that's an important caveat to capture here as well.

Yeah, and it's exactly what I was thinking about as you were speaking was how if you have 2D sex that's coupled with responsive desire, then it could potentially lead to positive outcomes, right? Where maybe you didn't initially want the sex, but then once it started, the desire might kick in as arousal starts to increase. So yeah, again, just highlights how this is a complicated, complex phenomenon that can play out in a lot of different ways.

Now, compared to other reasons for having sex, and we know, as we just said, that there are hundreds of them, how common is duty sex as a motivation? And what do we know about who's most likely to engage in duty sex?

Yeah, it's kind of difficult to say. There hasn't been a lot of studies where they're looking at like in this past month, how frequently did you have sex? My old research advisor, actually, Luciella Sullivan, did one of these kind of first studies where she tracked sexual compliance for a couple of weeks and found that both men and women are engaging in sexual compliance in their encounters regularly.

At the end of the day, it varies. We just ran a study and we're currently analyzing the data. So this is maybe a little bit ahead. But even undergraduate students are engaging in duty sacks at least once. Every single one of our participants reported duty sacks at least once.

It's that frequency that varies. I think when we take a step back and look at who is most likely to engage in duty sex, at least from our research, it's women with really high sexual pain. Again, that makes sense. If sex hurts, you're not going to want to do it or you're not going to want to do it for the pleasure reasons. And you might seek out, you know, the intimacy that comes with it and those lower in sexual satisfaction. So again, if you're not satisfied by sex, you're not going to want to engage in sex for satisfying reasons.

Yeah, and I think that when it comes to this idea of duty sex, a lot of people kind of have stereotypes about who engages in it. And I think the prototypical person that people would think of would be a middle-aged to slightly older woman who's in a heterosexual relationship, who is having sex to please her husband. But as you pointed out, you know, duty sex is something that can potentially occur in any relational context, including among younger adults.

And, you know, it can also occur across different sexual orientations. So, for example, you know, I've spoken with a number of sex therapists who have worked with gay male couples who come in who have sexual desire discrepancies where one partner wants a lot more sex than the other. And in these cases, and especially when there's a desire among the partners to maintain monogamy,

the lower desire partner will often have more sex than they want out of a sense of duty or obligation to that relationship. And I think, you know, we've talked about desire discrepancies a lot on this show. I think those are particular cases where duty sex often emerges. It's because, you know, one partner who doesn't have that desire might feel that sense of obligation by virtue of being in a relationship.

to be sexually active with their partner. And again, especially when it's coupled with the context of monogamy. It's a different situation when people are consensually non-monogamous. I think there's probably less pressure or sense of obligation to have sex in a lot of non-monogamous relationships. It might still be there because it might be part of the way that you connect with your partner, but maybe it's lesser to some extent.

But yeah, I just think it's important to point out here that when we're talking about duty sex, it's not a phenomenon that's unique to women, but certainly it seems like they're much more likely to experience it on average.

And I think too, that comes from like the messages women receive, you know, even growing up, like stay with your partner, sleep with your partner, otherwise he'll stray. If that's a message that really anyone is internalizing, of course, they're going to think about that. Even the whole word of like duty and people are using this word to describe their behavior almost has this kind of religious kind of component to it that I think is so prevalent in the messages we receive. And I think that's a really important part of it.

But just because you're not a woman doesn't mean you're immune to those messages.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right that when it comes to where we get these messages and how we internalize them, you know, we often hear about or learn about marriage as being this contract between partners and you have these duties or obligations to your spouse and sex may be one of them. And, you know, we've seen this in popular media depictions, but also in many people's real life experiences where before a woman gets married, she might be told by someone, perhaps her mother, that

She is expected to provide sex to her husband on an ongoing basis for the duration of their marriage, right? And so we sometimes get these sources of information from media, sometimes from family, friends, religion, society that kind of tell you that you in some ways kind of owe your partner a certain amount of sex. And I think that's where a lot of the duty sex comes from is that we've kind of internalized those societal expectations. Absolutely.

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Okay, so let's dive into a recent study that you conducted on duty sex. Now, before we get into the findings, give us the brief overview of what prompted you to do the study. So what is it you wanted to look at and who participated in your research?

Yeah, absolutely. So it came from my mentor, Dr. Cindy Meston. She was like, we got to research duty sacks. Like we discovered this in 2007. No one's looked at it. And then coupled with conversations with like my mom and our friends and just my peers, I often got responses of like, oh yeah. So like any woman ever, like they've all done it.

So, yeah, I think that kind of was the initial driver to do that. And so what we did is we looked at a sample of over 500 women and we measured their sexual function. We measured their previous non-consensual sexual experiences and then we measured their duty sex, but we also measured their other sexual motivations as

So we looked at pleasure. I'm having sex because I want to feel good or I want to have an orgasm. We looked at self-affirmation reasons. So I wanted to have sex so that I could feel better about myself or I could remind myself that I'm attractive. And then finally, we looked at intimacy reasons. I wanted to feel close to my partner. I wanted to communicate love to them. So when we were doing this study, we looked at how both sexual function and non-consensual sexual experiences are predicting each of those sexual motivations.

What was most interesting was only for duty sex did having a previous non-consensual sexual experience predict that behavior. So there were no differences in any of the other three motivations, the pleasure motivation, the self-affirmation motivation, and the intimacy reasons between women with and without sexual violence histories. So that I think was kind of the predominant finding. And that was true even after we controlled for sexual function. So it's not just...

that women with past sexual violence histories have less adequate sexual functioning, although that is an established link that we see. There's something else going on when it comes to women with sexual violence histories and their engagement in duty sex.

Yeah, and that was something that I thought was really interesting about the research that I wanted to dive into a little bit more in terms of what might potentially account for this association between having a history of non-consensual sexual experiences and engaging in duty sex more often. And so for me, one of the things that came to mind was how when people have experiences with sexual violence or victimization, that sometimes that can create sexual difficulties in the future. You know, for example, it can lead to

anxiety, it can lead to vaginismus, it can lead to all different kinds of things that might interfere potentially with sexual function. And so, you know, maybe there is some kind of mediating mechanism there where, you know, if you have that non-consensual sexual experience history, and then that creates sexual difficulties that then that might lead to kind of that sense of duty sex. But I don't know, there could be a lot of different things going on here. What else do you think might be happening?

Yeah, I certainly think that is something that's going on, although it's interesting because we saw no differences in those pleasure motives. So even those with sexual violence histories are still having sex at the same kind of rating, at least in their reports.

On average, obviously, this is not every single individual specifically in our sample. I think one of the other things is this like communication of non-consent. And if someone has, you know, denied your boundaries once, they've ignored your communication, that almost creates this like heightened fear of saying no. And like, what are the consequences? I mean, I really hope this is not the case, but there might be this implied. It's better to just take it than to deny.

say no and risk this again, which is just really unfortunate that that might be the dynamic at play here. Yeah. And as you said, there could be a lot of different potential things that are going on here, but I do think it is really important that you have this research that shows this linkage because it really does help us to better understand some of the characteristics of people who are engaging in duty sex. But we certainly need further work to better understand, you know, what does this association mean and why do women with that history of non-consensual experience

experiences, why do they engage in more duty sex? And I think you alluded to this a little bit earlier that another possible explanation is that maybe these individuals are more likely to have ended up in relationships with partners who are sexually coercive in some ways. And so maybe it is overlapping with continued sexual coercion in those instances. So yeah, again, it's a complex phenomenon. But something else you found in the work was that, you know, women who had these experiences with more sexual pain, so who had more

issues with sexual function related to painful sex were more likely to have duty sex. And I think on the one hand, it kind of makes a lot of sense that you would see that because if you're not finding sex to be very pleasurable, if sex really hurts, then you're less likely to want to do it for pleasure. So you might do it more out of a sense of duty. It doesn't necessarily mean though that you don't

want the sex because maybe you're getting something else out of it. Maybe you're getting connection with your partner or you derive pleasure from pleasing your partner in some way. And so it goes back to that question of, you know, wantedness or not. And it starts to become a little bit of a murky area in this case.

Mm-hmm. And sexual pain can vary, you know, we'll see higher rates in older women, for example, but that doesn't mean that they had sexual pain their entire lives. So early on in your relationship, if you were having lots of sex and now it's harder because it's painful, that might drive duty sex by nature of like, you want that same connection and fun and enjoyment that you experienced when you were younger. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And something else you found in the work was that women who have lower sexual satisfaction are more likely to engage in 2D sex. And I think there's an interesting question to be raised there, which is whether if sexual satisfaction is low to begin with, does that increase the performance?

propensity to engage in duty sex or does engaging in duty sex decrease sexual satisfaction, right? It's kind of that chicken or egg phenomenon which came first. So do you have any thoughts of, you know, what the causal direction is there? Yeah, I was going to say this has been a point of conversation between Cindy and I as to what's actually happening here. I hate to say I think it depends, but I do think...

people can have duty sex and have a really great experience in that encounter. And then that doesn't impact their sexual satisfaction at all. So I actually would venture to say maybe lower sexual satisfaction comes first. And then that drives duty sex engagement. And then every time you have duty sex, it's not a great experience. You're not satisfied with it. And that just kind of creates this perpetual cycle that makes it worse and worse and worse. And as a result, you experience that lower sexual satisfaction. So yeah,

If you're doing it and it's great and you're enjoying the sex, it might not be the thing that comes first, but...

Yeah, and that's exactly what I would predict too. You know, if I was going to do a longitudinal study and look at duty sex and how it's related to sexual satisfaction, I'd predict that you'd have a bi-directional association here, right? Where initial level of sexual satisfaction might predict engaging in duty sex and that's further going to have an impact on later sexual satisfaction. So yeah, I think it's kind of a reciprocal relationship in some ways. And so maybe it's not just one or the other.

But I think the big question from everything we've been discussing here, and I know we've kind of alluded to the answer a little bit already, is whether duty sex is inherently a bad thing. And, you know, of course, I expect a nuanced answer from you. And I think it depends is probably the correct answer.

because each individual situation might be very different. You know, there might be cases where, for example, duty sex is playing a role in helping to maintain the relationship and where the individual who is engaging in duty sex is still getting something out of it. But in other cases, you could see how it could undermine the connection between partners and cause problems in the relationship. So what's your take on it?

It's not inherently bad. I think I'll start with that. Like I said, the theme of the conversation, it depends on the relationship and the dynamics at play. I think you get at a great point here is sometimes this is what's maintaining the relationship.

We're collecting and analyzing data right now where we found that women who perceive themselves as lower in mate value, meaning they don't think they're as attractive or worthy as their partner is, they're more likely to engage in duty sex. But men who perceive themselves as lower in mate value are not reporting that same increase in mate value. So I think in some ways, duty sex is being leveraged as a tool to maintain a partner and to kind of compensate for that perceived value.

discrepancy in the relationship. And so in some ways that is what keeps a relationship stable. If they're not distressed by that, then, you know, who are we to judge as researchers? On the flip side, if this is like genuinely there's a level of coercion, it's unwanted, it's distressing, then yeah, like that's a problem in the relationship and something that I think should be talked about with a partner or maybe even with a couple's therapist and should be taken into consideration.

Yeah, whenever I post anything about 2D sex on social media, and particularly on Reddit, you find some very lively discussions about it. And you get a lot of people who come out of the woodwork saying no one should ever have 2D sex because there is this presumption on their part that anybody who is engaging in that is being sexually coerced or pressured into it explicitly by their partner.

And I think, as we've made the case here, that there are different types of people who engage in duty sex, some of whom might be receiving that explicit pressure from their partner. And that's a whole different thing. And that is bad, right? You shouldn't coerce or pressure somebody into doing something sexually that they don't want to do.

But on the other hand, you also have people who are engaging in duty sex where they're not getting that pressure from a partner and it's stemming from a place of insecurity or something else that is leading them to feel that sense of obligation to their partner. And that's a different situation. And again, I'm on the same page with you in terms of

It's not our place as the researchers to judge the individuals for their behavior if they are choosing to engage in consensual sexual activity. So, yeah, it's a more complicated, nuanced topic than most people give it credit for because I think a lot of folks just hear the word duty and then a certain stereotype or idea immediately comes to mind about what that means exactly. But as we've said, it's complicated.

Yeah, absolutely. And like, how freeing is it for someone to learn that like, it's okay to not have spontaneous desire that just pops up. You're not going to always just want to have sex with someone and you might still enjoy it when you start. And that's okay if it feels okay to you. You don't have to be distressed by it just because it started out one way and ended another.

You know, and there are actually a lot of sex therapists who recommend that when people come in for sex therapy, that they start engaging in maintenance sex, right? Where it's often recommended to be once a week, but it's sex that even if you don't necessarily want it, that you and your partner should have it because it's a way to connect with one another and to maintain a certain level of sexual connection and intimacy in the relationship. So

In a lot of ways, that idea of maintenance sex, I think, overlaps with this idea of duty sex. And, you know, maintenance sex, when it has that framing and it's coming from a sex therapist, people seem to be a lot more comfortable with it. So, you know, if that terminology kind of helps in better understanding what we're talking about here, then I think maybe that's a good shift in terms of how we might think about it.

Yeah, I love that maintenance sex. So do you have any other research in the pipeline on duty sex or other things that you want to do in this area in the future? Yeah, so I kind of mentioned it. So we're analyzing a study right now and hope to, you know, submit it by the end of April. So who knows?

But we're looking at mate value discrepancy. So how you view yourself in relation to your partner and your fears of if your partner is going to cheat on you. So if you think your partner is going to cheat, both men and women are more likely to engage in dubious sex. Again, that relationship maintenance factor. So that's something that we are looking at and hoping to release.

In addition, I'm starting to transition into researching menopausal women, which kind of stem from this idea of older women are having more duty sex. And as we started to look at the research and kind of, we have a bunch of responses of women actually writing about their sexual behavior. And we had like 75 year olds talking about their very active, very exciting sex lives.

So we're going to start kind of investigating that population and better understanding how they view their sexual sense of self and whether it is a sense of duty and all the factors that go into that. So interesting. And I look forward to seeing the results of that in the future. So my last question for you is, what do you want listeners to take away from your research and this conversation we've been having on duty sex?

Yeah, I think what it comes down to is just being accepting of yourself and your motivations and like recognizing that like it's okay to sometimes have sex that's not spontaneous and not, I want to have sex right now, let's go do this and have that outcome change. And the motivation does not have to match the outcome and that's okay.

But also, if you do feel coerced, if you do feel pressured, that doesn't have to be okay. That can be something that you can work on and you deserve to have consensual, fun sexual encounters. I love that. I think that's a perfect answer and a great way to end this conversation. Thank you so much. So thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Kate. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm on Twitter and Instagram, Kate B Metcalf. And you can also keep up with our work that we do in the Messin Lab at messinlab.com. Thank you so much for having me. Well, thanks again so much for your time. And I'll be sure to include those links in the show notes. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.