Episode 381: Rewriting Your Sexual Script
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You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Think for a moment about the most recent time that you had sex.

Did it follow a predictable pattern? In other words, did you kind of already know how it was going to play out before your clothes even came off? If so, you're not alone. Most of us have a tendency to follow sexual scripts during moments of intimacy in which there's a predictable sequence of activities that usually culminate in penetration and eventually orgasm. However, these sexual scripts can limit our opportunities for pleasure and connection. And that's precisely why it might be time to rewrite your own sexual script.

That's what we're going to be exploring in today's show. We're going to discuss how sexual scripts can be detrimental to our sex lives, how sexual scripts contribute to the well-documented orgasm gap, and tips on rewriting your own sexual script, including how to cultivate sexual curiosity, how to discover new pleasure sources and turn-ons, and how to figure out which parts of your script that you should keep and which ones you should ditch.

I am joined once again by Rachel Zahr, a licensed marriage and family therapist and ASEC certified sex therapist. Dr. Zahr is a clinical supervisor at Avid Intimacy, a sex and relationship therapy private practice in Chicago. This is going to be another fascinating episode. Before we get to it, here is today's Level Up Your Love Life segment presented by Masterclass.

Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best. Masterclass recently launched the Art of Sex Appeal class featuring Shan Boodram as the instructor. This class can help you learn everything from how to flirt better and increase your confidence in the bedroom, to improving your intimate communication, to cultivating a more fulfilling intimate life. I highly recommend this class because I think you'll get a lot out of it in terms of developing intimacy that is real, lasting, and undeniably yours.

In our Level Up Your Love Life segments, we're going to highlight key lessons from the course that can help you in cultivating a hotter and healthier sex life. Today, we're diving into a simple exercise in sexual communication that can help you in cultivating better sex. All right, let's dive in. So one of the exercises that Chan introduces in this class is a game called Then, Now, and Next. I think this is a really fun thing that you can try in your own relationship to do a little temperature check on your sex life and figure out where each of you want things to go in the future.

And I think it ties in well with the main conversation we're going to be having later in the show about rewriting your sexual script, because oftentimes we find ourselves falling into the same pattern over and over in terms of how we approach sex. So this exercise can be a helpful way of coming up with what you need to know for writing a new sexual script. So then, now, and next is a pretty simple concept.

Basically, you and your partner each just need a pen and paper, and what you're going to do is first write down what it was that you enjoyed about sex that you had with your partner when you first got together. So in other words, how did you feel about the sex you were having during the honeymoon phase? For example, did you like the sense of mystery or exploring the unknown with your partner? Did you like the intensity or frequency or spontaneity of the sex that you had? Following this, you're going to write down what you like about your current sex life with your partner. The now, if you will.

So think about how sex is different than it used to be and what you like and enjoy about it today. For example, maybe you appreciate the sense of safety that you have with your partner or the deeper emotional connection that you have. Maybe that makes sex more fulfilling or satisfying for you. Lastly, you're going to write down what you'd like to come next in your sex life. How do you want your sex life to evolve and change in the future? So for example, do you have some fantasies that you'd like to share with your partner that maybe you'd be curious about acting on?

Have you been wanting to bring some toys into the bedroom? Have you been curious about trying sex in a different position or location? Is there something in your sex life that isn't really working for you anymore that maybe you want to try differently? Once you've written out your then, now, and next statements, take turns sharing them with one another. Start with the then, and then later move into the now and the next. And feel free to take your time as you discuss each of them.

It's possible that some of your partner's answers will surprise you. Odds are you'll learn something new about what they enjoyed about sex in the past and where they want things to go in the future. And you can use this as an opportunity to ask follow-up questions and start a deeper conversation about your sex life. You can also bring in the Dreamweaver Dreamcatcher technique that we discussed in the previous episode, if you'd like, as a way to encourage active listening and really try to understand one another's perspective.

You can also apply the then-now-next exercise to things other than sex. So for example, you might repeat the same exercise, but do it for emotional connection or intimacy instead. Or maybe apply it to something like date nights. So in other words, what did you like about the dates that you used to have? What do you like about them now? And how do you want your dates to be different in the future?

It's a simple but elegant structured exercise that you can apply to a lot of different things in your relationship as a way of stimulating deeper communication, which, as we all know, is really the key to relationship health and happiness. The other thing I really like about this technique that Shan discusses in the class is that it can help in creating a sense of freedom and curiosity about your sex life.

The goal of the exercise is not to try and go back in time and recapture what sex was like in the beginning. It's to acknowledge that sex has changed and that's not necessarily a bad thing. This is an opportunity to appreciate what you have and creatively imagine or reimagine what sex can be. All right, that wraps up today's Level Up Your Love Life segment presented by Masterclass. A huge thank you to our friends over at Masterclass for sponsoring this segment and helping us all to learn and grow.

We have much more ahead on today's show, so stick around and we're going to jump in right after this short break. Are you curious about sex and psychology in other countries? Join me and Sexual Health Alliance as we expand your knowledge through their study abroad programs. Let's explore different cultures, engage in immersive learning experiences, and collaborate with international experts while traveling to amazing places and having fun with students from all around the world.

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Okay, Rachel, let's talk about rewriting your sexual script. Now, before we dive in, let me first ask for a definition. So when you say sexual script, what do you mean by that? And can you give us an example of what a common sexual script might look like? Sure, absolutely. A sexual script is the unwritten rules of how one is supposed to approach a sexual interaction or what one is supposed to do when you're having sex.

that you're following when you go into sex. So this isn't a necessarily a, we have talked about what we want and we're following that. It's more about these implicit understandings of what one is supposed to do or should do when they're having sex.

And so what might an example of a sexual script look like? Yes. So if we're looking at straight couples, so male, female, cis couple, what tends to happen is we think about, okay, first is foreplay.

And that can be anything from making out to manual stimulation to oral sex. We tend to put all that in the foreplay. That comes before. And then we have intercourse. And intercourse ends when we both happen to have a simultaneous orgasm or more often than not when he has an orgasm. And that's how we know that it's over. And then we roll over and go to bed. Okay.

Yeah, so that's the sexual script, right? This idea that sex kind of follows this linear, predictable pattern or progression every time that you do it. And, you know, I think a lot of us are following sexual scripts without necessarily even realizing it. You know, we have this tendency to approach sex the same exact way every single time. So, for example, maybe it starts with kissing.

And then the clothes come off and then you do some touching and maybe some oral sex and then it's right to penetration. And, you know, I bet that sequence sounds pretty familiar to a lot of people. You know, it's sort of like you're on autopilot in the bedroom where you're navigating through the same predictable pattern each time. And on the one hand, that could sound desirable in the sense that it takes all the guesswork out of sex, right? And makes it very predictable. But on the other hand, it's also a very limiting way to approach sex.

So tell us a little bit about that. How do our sexual scripts limit our experiences with pleasure?

First of all, what we know about that kind of heteronormative way to approach sex is that it's largely based on a male model of sexuality. It's based on what works for men. And that's a lot of stuff. And as you mentioned, folks tend to like it because they can get away with it without much communication, without much guidance or direction. We know exactly what to do.

But when it comes to what actually works for us and feels pleasurable, it's pretty far from what tends to work for folks with vulvas. And even honestly, for most men, it doesn't leave a lot of space for creativity. It doesn't leave a lot of space for any kind of sexual functioning issues, right? What if the penis involved is not hard enough?

We don't know. We've gone off script. We have no way of navigating this. Right. So it's really important to be able to have a lot of flexibility with that. But we don't learn how to do that. And then what, of course, happens is if we're unable to or unwilling to or we just don't really like that experience.

implicit sexual script very much. We tend to get a lot of panic and, oh no, and I'm not normal, and what does this mean? But the truth is that script isn't working for a lot of folks.

Yeah, and it's easy to see why a lot of people rely on sexual scripts, right? Because they do make sex easier in a way because you don't have to talk about it. And so many people find it easier to have sex than to talk about it. But oftentimes they're having sex that isn't really meeting their needs. And these sexual scripts, as you mentioned, can be very limiting in a lot of ways. And I think, you know, sexual scripts can be limiting for people of any gender or sexuality. But I think there are a couple of groups where sexual scripts tend to be especially limiting.

One is heterosexual women, who you already alluded to. You know, in the hetero world, sexual scripts often culminate in the male orgasm. That's when sex ends. And many women find that there's not even an opportunity for them to orgasm because the sex was over before they even had a chance. But another group where I think scripts can be very limiting is for gay men.

A lot of gay guys identify as a specific sexual position, for example, as a top or a bottom, denoting the specific role that they always take during penetrative sex.

And when gay men strongly identify with a specific position, they rarely explore or experiment with other forms of pleasure. But if they did, they might find that there are actually other things that they really enjoy and that they can be a lot more flexible in terms of how they approach sex and experience pleasure. So I just wondered if you could speak to this a little bit in terms of, you know, groups or people that you think are particularly disenfranchised by sexual scripts.

Sure. And I think you said it really well, that there are certain folks that are more harmed by this or that are affected most by it. We see that in some research around what's called the orgasm gap, which looks at what are the differences in how often folks are reporting that when they're having sex, they're actually having an orgasm.

And we know that there are other ways to experience pleasure besides orgasm, but there's some good information here that we see. You mentioned straight women. We see a 20% drop in likelihood for straight women having an orgasm when they're having sex with men versus lesbian women having sex with other women. And of course, these women have the same anatomy, right? There's nothing here that's fundamentally different about these folks except for that

And this isn't men's fault either, of course. It's the way that they're having sex with their partners and the kind of adherence to this penis in vagina intercourse as the end all be all. And male orgasm is the end of the experience. Nothing more to do there. So we all suffer when we adhere to that experience.

We tend to see that in queer folks, there is a lot more space for flexibility and a lot more communication, if we're being honest. And you mentioned that

queer folks are not exempt from sexual scripts and expectations. And there's in the gay male community, there can be such high, first of all, performance anxiety and pressure. And again, these adherence to specific roles and a way that things are supposed to go that really prevent folks from being as creative with their sexual scripts as might actually serve them.

Yeah, and I think there's so much to be said for being versatile and flexible in terms of how your needs are met, sexually speaking, because we all change as we age. Our body changes. What feels good and pleasurable for us evolves. And if you've only ever...

had sex in one way, and if you've like further gone and identified as like a specific sexual position, but then that position no longer becomes possible or feasible or comfortable for you later on, then what do you do? Right? So if you've cultivated these other pleasure sources, ways to engage sexually, then you have more options on the menu if something gets taken off the menu at some point down the road. So yeah, I think

Anyone can experience the limiting effects of sexual scripts. And something I often talk about in workshops and lectures that I give is just that general importance of expanding your erotic repertoire. I think it's one of the most valuable skills that we can do in order to cultivate a healthy sex life as we age. Because like I said, again, it just gives you more options and things that you can do because sometimes you and your partner won't be on the same page about exactly what you want to do. So when you have more options, that creates more opportunities

opportunities to connect. And also if certain activities become uncomfortable or just aren't as feasible later on, again, you've got other options and ways to connect.

Well, and I think what you're saying is really important and it speaks to the kind of work that we're doing when we are talking about rewriting sexual scripts. It's not just about, oh no, you've been using a script that doesn't work for you. Let's create a new one and here's your new script. Have good sex for the rest of your life. No, it's let's learn the skills to be constantly updating and negotiating and communicating about our sexual scripts so that we can continue to do that.

for the rest of our lives. Because the thing that we often see too is even if folks discover a new script that really does work for them, we tend to then revert to the thing that feels most effective and most efficient, right? How can we have the quickest and most reliable orgasm?

And then we're just completely eliminating any sense of novelty or exploration. And we've talked in the past about how important it is to have those things in a relationship. So when we talk about rewriting sexual scripts, what we're really talking about is learning sexual communication and negotiation and how to notice relationships.

and lean into the things that are most pleasurable in your own body. And for a lot of folks, that's a skill that needs to be learned, right? For a lot of times we can ask folks, well, what is it that feels most pleasurable to you sexually? And the answer is, I don't know, I've never thought about it. And that is a skill to be mindfully aware of where pleasure sensations are coming from in our body, right?

And then to be able to communicate either to ourselves or to a partner about how to best elicit those pleasurable sensations. Yeah, I think that's all great information. And I think it's also helpful when we're talking about rewriting your sexual script that, you know, as you said, you're not just coming up with a brand new script and you're just going to follow that strictly every time you have sex. It might be a good idea to have a range of scripts that you can follow and also having the freedom within those scripts

to just go off on side adventures and explore other things and having that openness and curiosity. So again, it's really about cultivating a more flexible approach to sexuality.

So let's talk in a little more detail about how to rewrite your sexual script. So you gave a presentation on this topic at the Sexual Health Alliance workshop that we co-presented at earlier this year. And your starting point in that talk was allowing some space for grief and shifting your mindset toward curiosity about what sex could be. So tell us a little bit about what you mean by that.

Whenever we're making a big transition around something that wasn't working for us, we also need to let go of that thing. And this is especially true when we're talking about rewriting sexual scripts due to aging, menopause, changing in sexual functioning, changes in your body overall, that sometimes we need to have a little bit of a break.

have a moment, have even a little bit of a funeral for, okay, remember when I used to be able to just kind of look at my partner and have an orgasm? Wasn't that amazing? Okay. Yeah. That was really nice. We need to let that go in order to find space for, but now that that doesn't happen, I get to really luxuriate and sink into pleasurable feelings. And yeah, it takes longer to get to orgasm, but

that period in between is so much better and to find the joy in that space. I hear so often from folks, I just want to get back. I just want to go back to

to the way that it was before. And once we're able to grieve that, then we're also able to think a little critically about it, right? How much of that was really great and how much of that was that I was just able to get away with, again, not having as much communication, not needing to notice what was going on in my body so much, not needing to take things slow or use loop, right? All of these things that we know actually tends to make sex much better.

regardless of where you are in your sexual development. Yeah, I think it's so true that so many people kind of want to go back in time, right, to a previous point in their sex life or in their relationship. You know, and we hear this a lot for people, especially in long-term relationships, long-term couples in particular, who want to get back to those feelings of passion and intensity that they had in the honeymoon phase of their relationship where the sex was really passionate and exciting. And it's like, you know, you

It's really hard to go back there, right? You know, some people are able to kind of like recapture the passion and magic in their relationship, but even then it tends to be fleeting, right? So if you're trying to get that early stage of passion to

come back and maintain that over the long run, it's probably not a realistic expectation for your sex life or for your relationship. Again, as you said, it's about sort of meeting you and your partner where you are right now at this particular moment in time and figuring out what works for you right now as opposed to what worked for you in the past.

Exactly. And what we tend to see is that folks who do that intentionally and really dedicate the time and energy to doing that as they age, they tend to report that sex actually does get better with age, which is pretty cool, right? It means that not only can it be okay, it can be really great if you choose that that's something that you want to prioritize in your life and in your relationships.

Yeah, and something related to that is also expanding your definition of what sex is. And that's super important for healthy aging when it comes to sex. What we see in the research is that among older adults who retain very strict views of sex as, say, penis and vagina penetration, they tend to be less sexually satisfied than older

adults who have a shift toward sex's intimacy. And sex can be whatever it is that you want it to be. That could be oral sex or mutual masturbation, or it could be any number of other things. Again, it goes back to what we were saying earlier about having more options on the erotic menu. That's part of the utility of expanding your definition of sex, which is that it creates these other avenues for experiencing pleasure. Absolutely. And one of the big ways that I think we do that is by

eliminating the term foreplay. It is not serving us to think of all of these things that are sex as coming before the main event. It also contributes to queer erasure and trans erasure because this is a lot of the ways that folks who do not have a penis paired with a vulva are having sex. But that foreplay is actually core play. It is sex.

sex and leaning into those things as complete sexual acts also allows us to get creative about what comes first and what comes next, right? Even if intercourse is on the menu for you, maybe you have a little intercourse and then you have a little oral sex, right? Wild. That can blow people's minds. But when you think of

Like if you have a list of sexual acts, if you can kind of put them in a circle and then come in and out of any sexual act as you want to, that's where all the juice is. That's where all the fun is. That's where all the play is. And what is sex besides adult play? Yeah.

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And I think it's such a great point that like, again, sex doesn't have to follow this linear progression. You can go off in any number of directions and it's okay to take a detour and enjoy where you are right now. And it's like, maybe you're enjoying that so much that you don't even necessarily want or need penetration, right? And you can just focus on that and enjoy it for what it is, right? There's so many different ways to experience pleasure.

Now, when it comes to rewriting your sexual script, you don't necessarily need to throw the entire thing out, right? Maybe there are some parts that work really well for you, but others that don't. So how do you figure out what to take with you and what to leave behind? The first step is really to do an assessment of that sexual script to look back at what are the rules that I'm following? What is the script that we have? And how am I feeling at each point?

Is this pleasurable for me? Right? Even just that question. Do I like this?

lets you know, is this something that we want to keep on the menu? And so often when folks are having these conversations with their partner, they'll realize things like, well, I was just doing that for you. Well, I thought I was doing it for you. Wait, neither of us actually enjoy that part of our script all that much. Well, let's toss it. Let's take it off the menu. Why are we doing this? So the first step is really assessing what are the parts that we want to

keep? What is really working for us? And by and large, you don't need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are some things there that you will want to hold on to that feel really special and pleasurable to you and your partner. Then you get to add to it, right? Then you get to, and there are many ways to do this. One is to go into your fantasies,

Right. Think about movie scenes that you think are really sexy, porn scenes that you think are really sexy into the depths of your imagination and explore. Here's something that really turns me on. Can we figure out how to get that same energy between us, whether it's a power dynamic or a specific sexual act that can be really fun?

If you're finding yourself like, I don't even know where to start. There are lots of lists that exist online. They're called yes, no, maybe lists. If you Google them, they'll come up. I really like Scarleteen has one that's really thorough and you can go through with your partner and or by yourself first actually is what I recommend. And yeah,

Look at different sexual acts, different sexual dynamics, and ask yourself, is this something that, yes, please, that sounds amazing? Is this something that sounds like, no, thank you, would not want, does not sound good to me? Or is this something that, I don't know, that's the maybe? I don't know. I haven't explored this yet, but maybe I'd like to try it. Maybe in certain circumstances, maybe with certain parameters or safety precautions taken, maybe.

And that's all the space for creativity and exploration. Then you get to try things out and assess for yourself, did I like this?

Remember to leave space for the things that feel like, oh my God, that's the best thing in the world. In addition to the things that feel like nice and maybe it's a sometimes thing and could be added to the novelty everyone's sort of blue moon category. And what you'll end up with if you do this alongside your partner is a menu of where things overlap.

You find that Venn diagram of where do our yeses and our maybes overlap that just becomes this sexual menu.

There are also there are apps for everything. Kindu is one that is kind of like a dating app for your sex life where you can swipe right or left on certain activities and it will light up. That's nice. I tend to encourage actual direct conversation because there's so much more space for negotiation and getting to know your partner in a new way. But that's a really nice place to start.

Yeah, and you can feel free to use technology to make these conversations easier if you have some discomfort when it comes to talking about sex. Yes, ideally, you'll talk about it face-to-face, but sometimes people find it easier to type things or to use one of the apps, like you mentioned. Some of the other apps people might try are XConfessions and Own Your Sex. Both of them are sort of like Tinder for sexual fantasies. Again, it's similar to the one you described where you're swiping right or swiping left and then...

You're letting the app compile your shared interests for you. And so for some people, that's less anxiety inducing because then you don't have to run the risk of sharing something that your partner isn't into and then having to navigate that particular situation. So yeah, there are no right or wrong ways necessarily to go about this, but you need to have the conversation in some way.

And I wanted to go back to a couple of things that you said, because I think you raised a lot of really important points. And one of them is that it's kind of wild, isn't it? That sometimes you'll have two people who are in a long-term relationship and they're having sex and

the same way every time and they're doing things that nobody is enjoying right and they're doing it because they thought their partner wanted it but in reality nobody actually wanted it which is again underscores the importance of having sexual communication and also being willing and able to deviate from those sexual scripts because that's another way that they're limiting because sometimes we fall into these patterns of behavior that aren't serving anybody's interests or needs

And I think also, too, what you said about how some people, when it comes to rewriting their sexual script, really struggle with this because they don't even know what it is that they want, right? It's like, well, I know that I don't want that, but what do I want? I think part of it is exploring your fantasies, exploring different forms of pornography and erotica, just kind of

Going out there and exposing yourself to different things and seeing what resonates with you and what you think you might potentially be into. It could include exploring different forms of masturbation and playing with sex toys and stimulating different parts of the body. I think, as I've said many times before on the show, oftentimes we don't know what we like or want when it comes to sex until we try it.

And so sometimes it's just about trying something that's different and seeing how does that feel for me? And do I want to explore that further and get more of that in the future? So sometimes, especially if you don't feel like you know what you want, you just got to get out there and explore and figure it out.

Right. And I think it's really important that we normalize for folks that a lot of folks don't know what they want. And this is especially true. We see this a lot in people who are socialized as women. And there are a lot of dangerous narratives there around sex is just for men and you're not supposed to have these kind of sexual fantasies. And often the most important first step and the most revolutionary first step is just giving yourself that permission to

to get curious about what you really want. Once you're able to do that, the world is your oyster, right? You really, there are no limits to what you can explore and what you can discover about yourself. Yeah, and something I was thinking about as you were speaking was how in the gay male community, sometimes sexual roles are imposed on you by other people because they make assumptions based on your appearance or mannerisms in terms of what role you're likely to take.

take in the bedroom and so when people treat you in a certain way consistently over time it can make you come to think that you are defined by that sexual role or that is how you're supposed to have sex and again there's lots of different ways that you can do it and so um

Again, that's just another way that these sexual scripts I think are kind of limiting is that sometimes they're imposed on us by other people because they're making presumptions about what we want when it comes to sex when we might not actually know what it is that we want or enjoy because we never had the chance to really fully explore that. Exactly. Is this actually something I want or is this something that I've just been told I'm supposed to want? Yeah.

So something else you talk about when it comes to rewriting your sexual script is queering up sex. So what does that mean? How do you queer up sex?

I love that. And I love the reaction on straight couples' faces when I say that to them. But it's based on some real research that shows us that queer folks tend to have more sexual flexibility, more communication when it comes to their sexual interactions, and freedom from this heteronormative sexual script. So what I refer to is there was this old TV show that I loved called Whose Line Is It Anyway? where the tagline was,

The rules are made up and the points don't matter. And if we can approach sex like that, where it's not about getting to a certain goal, it's not about getting to that finish line, it's about having fun in the moment.

and really exploring what are all the different things I can do with this body part and what might be fun and what might be silly and what might feel connecting, then we get to really luxuriate in sex that's made for us as opposed to that's put upon us by, again, these unwritten and unfair rules that don't matter.

Yep. So one other thing I wanted to ask you about was that there's this common technique that is often recommended as part of sex therapy known as sensate focus. And it's an exercise that I think can be particularly useful in terms of resetting or rewriting your sexual script, because it's all about connecting with your partner physically without having a specific end goal in mind. So can you tell us briefly just a little bit about what sensate focus is and how it can be a helpful tool in rewriting your script?

Sure. Sensei Focus is one of the more common interventions that you'll see a sex therapist do, and that's for a reason. It's because it can be very effective. What it is, yes, it's about connecting with your partner, but more so it's a mindfulness exercise. It's about being present in your own body. Because again, a lot of times this, I don't know, is because I'm not present in my body enough to notice or catch when something feels good. So

So what sensate focus is, is it's basically you take terms giving your partner a massage. And there are some parameters around what that massage looks like. But the whole time that you're giving or receiving that massage, you're just noticing the sensations in your body. You're not trying to get aroused. You're not trying to get to orgasm. In fact, at first we put a boundary around genitals so that they're not even part of the experience.

equation, you're really just trying to notice what sensations feel like in your body and to be able to touch your partner in a way that's also about noticing how it feels for yourself. And of course, there are some ways to communicate throughout this that can be really helpful and could help with

sexual communication, but it really serves folks who are struggling to know what feels good for them to be in the moment. Folks often get distracted or pulled in different directions to be in their bodies and to build all of those skills around noticing what feels good, communicating what feels good, and ultimately feeling really connected to their sexual selves and to their partners.

Yeah. And you don't have to be in sex therapy in order to practice Sense8 Focus. It can be a great tool for anyone to employ, to just connect with their partner, learn to be more present and in the moment, and help to better understand their pleasure sources. So thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Rachel. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work?

Absolutely. It was a pleasure to be here. You can find me at rachelzartherapy.com and on Instagram at rachelzartherapy. Well, I will be sure to include links to all of that in the show notes. So thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.