Episode 383: The Politics of Sexual Fluidity
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You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Leigh Miller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. In the previous episode, we talked all about sexual fluidity, which refers to the idea that people's sexual attractions, behaviors, and even identities may shift over time.

Today, we're going to dig even deeper into the subject and explore the complex politics surrounding sexual fluidity. The sheer idea that someone's gender-based attractions might change over time is highly controversial. For example, many people within the LGBTQ community have expressed concern about it from the standpoint that it's not consistent with the "born this way" idea that has long underpinned the push for LGBTQ rights.

And indeed, research on sexual fluidity has sometimes been used by activists to suggest that sexual orientation is a choice and that it doesn't merit being a protected class under the law. So in this show, we're going to explore the political controversy surrounding sexual fluidity. We're also going to dive into some of the struggles faced by people with fluid sexuality in terms of social acceptance, given that fluidity is something that is often greeted with suspicion.

I am joined once again by Mark Cusack, a sexuality and relationship coach supporting people who may have complex, fluid, or undefined sexual orientation or gender. Mark is also an author, lecturer, and content creator who loves to educate audiences about the less understood parts of the LGBTQ+ spectrum. Mark's latest book is titled " A Guide for People with Flexible Sexuality." This is going to be another fascinating episode.

Before we get to it, here is today's top three segment presented by Field. Field is the dating app for the curious, where you can go on a journey of self-exploration. It's a place that recognizes that change is par for the course when it comes to our sexuality. In fact, Field offers more than 20 different ways to identify your gender and sexuality, as well as the ability to indicate your desires and interests, which you can change as many times as you want as you come to understand yourself better.

It's an app that doesn't tell you what you want and instead leaves you in control. Because, after all, the only person who can determine what you like is you. To that end, our top three segments are designed to equip you with the knowledge you need to assist you on your own journey of sexual self-discovery. In these segments, my friend Ashley Weller, host of the amazing What's Your Position podcast, will be joining me and will be sharing our top three tips for exploring a different aspect of your sexuality.

Today, we're diving into the subject of making a successful online dating profile. So, Ashley, are you ready to talk about it? You bet your ass. All right. I'm excited to dive in. So what's your first tip for making a successful online dating profile? Hey, I hate to say it, but first impressions matter.

Do not put photos that do not represent who you are today on your profile. Make sure that you have a killer photo that is your profile photo. The one that people see first is the one they're going to remember. Make sure you feel confident in this photo. Make sure it's something that speaks to who you are as a person.

show variety in your photos, avoid that group confusion. Like, is that his mom? Is that his ex? Is that his daughter? Making sure that you are being honest about who you are. So don't overuse filters and don't overuse like editing. You are representing you in this. So be you.

Yeah, I think that's great advice because where things sometimes go wrong with online dating is that when people...

over represent themselves in a certain way and then they meet the other person in person, then it becomes discovered that you kind of lied about something that was pretty crucial or important to their attraction to you. And then suddenly that creates trust issues and can lead to lots of other problems down the line. Right. So I think, yes, it's true. Being honest, being authentic, being yourself is one of the keys to having a successful profile on any platform.

Now, my first tip was when you're writing your profile, don't just talk about yourself. A lot of people only write about themselves and their background. And that can sometimes come across as being a bit narcissistic. And in fact, there have been studies that have been done finding that people who only talk about themselves, that their profiles are evaluated less favorably than people who also talk about.

the other key piece of information, which is what you're looking for in another person. So ideally, you want to have what I call the 70-30 ratio, where about 70% of your profile is about you and about 30% is about what you're looking for in another person. And the data backs this up. So for example, field reports that members of the app who complete their about sections are about 50% more likely to make connections with others, right? So there's a lot of value in

having a thorough and complete profile, but also following this rule of talking not just about yourself, but about what you're looking for in someone else. I think that's a really great point. I actually had one that was similar to this.

But I wanted to sort of add on and ask questions in your profile. Ask interesting things like, what's the weirdest food you've eaten that you actually liked? Or what's your go-to karaoke song? They can still be about you if you're a foodie or if you're a karaoke guru, which I am both. You can find out more about the people who are on your profile while also highlighting things about yourself that you hold true and dear.

Yeah, and my next tip is related to this a little bit, and it's about being free or feeling free to use some humor in your profile as long as it doesn't feel forced. So we know from the data and research that a good sense of humor is one of the key things that people report is finding attractive in a potential partner, regardless of their gender and sexuality.

So if you can use a little bit of humor, for example, in having a clever or witty screen name, or maybe one of your photos is a little bit silly in some ways, right? That can humanize you. And if it makes the other person laugh, that can make you more attractive, right? Because the ability to make somebody laugh is just a very, very sexy trait. So again, don't do something that feels forced because that can come across as, you know, not being very attractive, but use humor where appropriate.

I think that feeds right into my second tip, which is to be authentic. And I think being humorous is also being vulnerable while also being authentic. Be the best version of yourself. Dating is like a job interview. You need to be the best version of yourself when you are trying to secure a relationship with an individual. There's a difference between putting your best foot forward and pretending to be someone that you're not. On that note,

Skip the negativity. Nobody likes a Debbie Downer. Nobody likes people who are constantly ragging on themselves. But be honest. If you are there just to hook up, say so. There are plenty of people who want the same thing. If you are there to find a long-term partner, then say so. Being authentic and being honest is one of the sexiest things you could possibly be.

Yeah, I love that. And again, that goes back to, you know, filling out your profile completely. And if you're on field indicating all of your interests and what it is that you're looking for, because that's going to help narrow it down in terms of other people who might have the same interest as you. And so you'll be able to find each other more easily if you have a more complete profile. And also, if you're honest about what you put in that profile.

So my last tip was maybe to consider asking a friend or someone that you know well to review your profile and offer suggestions. Sometimes getting outside feedback is invaluable because you might actually be underselling yourself, right? You might actually not know what your most attractive traits or features are. So ask the people who know you the best for some of that feedback, which you can incorporate in your profile and make it even more appealing.

I absolutely love this tip. I've done that for friends. They've showed me their profiles and been like, what do you think about this? And I'm like, that's a terrible picture. Give me your phone and I'll find the one where I'm like, you radiate joy in this photo. I didn't even think about that tip, Justin. That's freaking fantastic. Sometimes we are our own worst critics and our friends are really going to be the ones to say, hey, you're way better than you're making it sound. Quit that. Knock that off. Be better for yourself.

My last tip is about making sure you keep your profile fresh. If dating is important to you and is something that you are going to really get into, consider it a part-time, if not a full-time job. You need to keep your resume updated.

Update your CV, okay? Update your photos, update what you've been doing, add new pictures of places you've gone, update your likes, constantly be engaged with the information that you are putting out into the world. Because if you have a photo of your dog and a year later, you no longer have that dog and someone's asking you about your dog, you need to make sure everything is up to date. Treat this like you would treat a job. If it is that important to you, it should be maintained.

Yeah, I think that's great advice. Thank you so much for sharing your tips for a successful online dating profile with us, Ashley. That wraps up our top three segment presented by Field. A huge thank you to our friends over at Field for sponsoring the segment and for helping us to expand our horizons in the dating world and on this show. We have much more to discuss in today's episode, so stick around and we're going to jump in right after this short break. Do you ever find yourself dreaming about a career where you get to talk about sex and psychology all day long?

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Okay, Mark, in the last episode, we talked all about what sexual fluidity is and isn't. So let's dive deeper into this topic. Now, most people have probably noticed that at least some of their sexual attractions and desires aren't entirely stable over time. So for example, their go-to genre of porn or their favorite fantasy might change over the course of their lives. They might go through periods of time where they desire being submissive and other times where they want to be dominant.

Maybe they used to be into blondes and now they're into brunettes. Or perhaps there are times where you wanted a ton of sex and others where you kind of lost all interest in it.

So in many respects, fluidity in attraction and desire actually kind of seems to be the norm, and it's not very controversial. But when it comes to fluidity in gender-based attractions, that's a whole other story and something that some people seem to have a much harder time accepting. So why is that? Why do you think sexual fluidity is controversial to some people?

Yeah, and thank you so much for putting it so perfectly. I mean, as we said in the last episode, we're all kind of fluid if you think about it. It's just that when it comes to gender, people start to get concerned. And I think it's a valid concern. I mean, no prizes for guessing why. I mean, the LGBTQ plus community has been under so much pressure for centuries.

so many years and this idea that somehow your sexuality can be changed. There are obviously religious, conservative people who might want to kind of force someone to change or to kind of like make it feel like your sexuality is a choice or it's like a lifestyle. You know, we've all heard these ridiculous things. And so I,

when people hear this idea of like fluid sexuality,

understandably, they get a bit scared and concerned. I want to say to anybody out there who feels that, like, I feel it too. Like, I get you. And it is absolutely so important that we give the right message. So I will say right here, right now, the most important thing to remember is that no sexuality is a choice. Being gay, being straight, being bi, being ace,

is not a choice. Being fluid is not a choice.

It's as simple as that. Fluidity happens for some people. Most people have a pretty stable sexuality. For some people, it exists. And that is just the same as any other sexuality. So anybody who is trying to make out like it's a choice, it's something you can choose, it's something you can learn to change or be influenced to change or anything like that,

is talking absolute nonsense.

So a few hundred episodes back, I had Lisa Diamond on the show who conducted a lot of the pioneering research on sexual fluidity. And I actually remember learning about the concept of sexual fluidity for the very first time from her at a conference back when I was a graduate student. And she was navigating a political minefield around this particular topic. LGBTQ people were concerned about the topic because it seemed to undermine the "born this way" narrative that was underpinning the push for gay rights.

And it really wasn't long before conservative activists started citing Lisa Diamond's research and court filings as evidence that sexuality isn't an immutable trait or characteristic, and therefore sexual orientation shouldn't be a protected class.

And, you know, I remember at this conference talk going up to Lisa and I was, you know, just a graduate student at the time. And I said, you know, do you have any concerns about people potentially misusing this research and using it to say that sexuality is a choice? And she said, yeah, you know, I wake up every day worried about what people are going to do with my research.

But I can't pretend like the research and data don't exist. You know, our job as the scientists and the researchers is to collect the data and to put it out there. We can't necessarily control how other people are going to use it. And, you know, for me, that was an impactful experience.

thing to learn from somebody who's studying and navigating complex topics like this is that we can't always anticipate what people are going to do with the research that we put out there. And we can talk about what we think the implications are and what it means, but that doesn't necessarily stop or prevent other people from using that research for their own political or other purposes.

Now, you know, back at the time when this research was kind of being used by some conservative activists to try and block the push for same-sex marriage, those arguments actually didn't really land at the time. And LGBTQ rights gradually expanded through about the mid-2010s.

But we're in a very different political landscape now. And I recently saw that the U.S. Supreme Court is actually taking up a case about whether states can ban the practice of conversion therapy, which involves trying to change someone's sexuality, usually from gay to straight. And I can't help but worry that fluidity research will again be weaponized in a court fight like that with people using it to suggest that sexuality is changeable. So I don't know.

That was a very long-winded question, and I'm not actually sure what my question to you is, but I just have lots of thoughts on this topic, given the long history of how this research on sexual fluidity has been used by scientists versus by activists.

Yeah, absolutely. And it is such an important thing to talk about. And particularly at the moment, you know, in the UK, we have very similar kind of currents and movements, you know, to the right wing. And of course, our hearts are all connected.

with people in the States and what is going on. It's just ridiculous and horrible. It's absolutely right, you know, that people are going to use all kinds of ridiculous arguments. I mean, these people, they don't know what they're talking about. They're going to use like,

whatever they're going to use. I mean, they just talk nonsense. But one way I like to look at it is obviously you've got like anti-gay conversion therapists. And so you might say to yourself, okay, well, we shouldn't be talking about fluid sexuality because, you know, it's going to encourage them.

If you think about anti-trans conversion therapists who are prevalent as well, sadly, I'm not sure that you would say don't talk about gender fluidity because it's going to encourage anti-trans conversion therapists. You kind of wouldn't say that because actually encouraging and talking about and uplifting and raising awareness of gender fluidity and the whole diverse gender spectrum is

is going to support gender expansive, gender diverse people everywhere. And it's just another part of the spectrum, another part of our community. So I think it's exactly the same when it comes to sexuality. I mean, talking about the spectrum of sexuality and all the diverse, wonderful, different kind of identities and experiences that there are,

it's contributing to raising awareness of, you know, our community and of the variety that we have. So it's not going to encourage anti-gay conversion therapists or anyone else. And the other really important thing, I think, and this is quite kind of personal for me as well, and to a lot of people who I know and speak to, it's

If you kind of erase the existence of a particular part of the LGBT community in an attempt to kind of, what was that, protect another, you're really, really damaging people in that section of the community. For example, I grew up as a fluid person in a world where I was told that there's only gay and straight, that's all you can be.

And I went through absolute hell thinking that I was broken, thinking that there was something wrong with me, thinking that no one would ever accept me or no one would ever love me, all because no one actually just took the time to tell me, oh, well, fluidity exists and it's normal and it's okay. And, you know, you can be who you are.

And so it's really, really important that we do that, that we talk about it and we say, hey, you can be this, you can be that, you can be gay, lesbian, bi, fluid, ace, trans, non-binary, gender fluid. You can be who you are. We shouldn't erase less represented parts of the community just to kind of try to protect some kind of other part of the community. It just, it's not right.

Yeah, I mean, that raises a really big question that we could do a whole separate podcast about, which is political strife within the LGBTQ community. And, you know, as the size of that community has grown in recent years, we've started seeing more tensions develop.

But, you know, getting back to the research and data here, you know, I think the best thing we can do as scientists is to collect the best data and evidence that we can that helps us to extend and expand our understanding of human sexuality and by extension, help others to better understand diversity in human sexuality as well. But there are always going to be people who will interpret that research how they want, where they're going to pick and choose which research findings are convenient for them and which ones they want to ignore.

Yeah, it's a whole separate thing when it comes to the politics of how sex research is used. Now, I've noticed a growing amount of discussion around the politics of sexual identity labels that has occurred against the backdrop of public opinion polls and surveys finding that the number of people who identify as LGBTQ is exploding. So overall, around 10% of the population now identifies as LGBTQ, which is up from the low single digits about two decades ago.

And when you look at young adults, Gen Z in particular, the number rises to nearly 25%.

And most of that increase is attributable to a big rise in bisexual identification, but it also seems that more people are identifying as pansexual, fluid, or as having plurisexual identities. And there's been a lot of speculation behind this and a lot of questioning about what this really means. And there have also been a lot of purity tests applied too, especially in light of research finding that there have been more shifts in sexual identity than there have been in sexual behavior.

You know, some people question whether all these people who are now identifying as LGBTQ are actually LGBTQ if they're not acting on their same sex or same gender attractions. So what's your take on this? Do people need to act on fluid attractions in order to be fluid or identify as fluid? You know, are our actions or behaviors the key thing that defines our sexuality?

So the simple answer to that from me is no, you absolutely don't need to act on anything, whether you're straight or gay or bi or fluid or anything else, you don't,

have to have had an experience with someone to know that. So absolutely not. I sometimes get people in my coaching, for example, who will come to me and they will say, well, I think I'm this, or I think I'm that, or I'm having these feelings, but I feel like I need to act on it, you know, in order to prove it. And 99 times out of a hundred, that's just a disappointing endeavor because

Like, you don't have to have done something to know. So absolutely not. You don't have to at all. Of course, if you would like to explore and you do it safely and everything, then, you know, that's great. When I was writing this book...

And when I'm making my content on not defining my kind of online platform, I kind of really always turn to the younger generation. The Gen Zers have inspired me so much. Obviously, we stand on the shoulders of generations who have come before us, but I often say I

in a way, I stand on the shoulders of the generation who have come after us. I am 36 now, and I actually only came out when I was 30 because a lot of people who have like less recognized identities would come out a bit later. And I

I could only do that because the younger people were coming through and talking about all of these diverse, in-between, complex, like different, less represented parts of our community. And I love...

the young people for doing that. Like they're doing it on social media, they're doing it on TikTok and they don't care so much about, you know, these rigid categories. And you see a lot of the kind of like pop stars and like celebrities and we've got books coming up, like so much stuff.

And people are just saying, well, I'm a bit of this, I'm a bit of that. Do I really need to define whatever? My whole platform is called Not Defining. It's all about that in between. Because I actually don't think that we should have to put a label on our sexuality. Like, if you want to, obviously that's...

I just think it's like a strange thing that we're forced to do. We're forced to come out and declare it to the world and everything. And it's like, well,

what I do in the bedroom, like, why am I declaring that to like my friends and family on Facebook? It's just, so I think we've seen a movement from people being like, who cares? Like, let's not, let's not do that. It is fluid. It is diverse. It is a big spectrum. And it's more important, I think, to ask yourself the question, not what label am I, but

What do I like? What brings me joy? What kind of people do I really like to be around? Like, what makes me happy? What do I want to do in life? Those are the questions that I like to ask beneath the labels.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all of that. And yeah, you know, there are a lot of people who really want to be able to put others into these neat, tidy boxes that just help them to understand who they are. And lots of people also want to do that for themselves, right? They want to put themselves into a certain category because they think it's going to give them a certain level of self-understanding.

But sometimes like all of this pressure to put people into these neat and tidy boxes becomes counterproductive because that's just not really how human sexuality works. You know, it's much more dynamic and fluid and flexible than people tend to give it credit for. So yeah, I'm with you in the sense that we shouldn't feel so much pressure to put ourselves into certain boxes and to feel like we have to announce it to the entire world.

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Now, a lot of the discussion that I've heard around the rise in LGBTQ identities suggests that some people seem to think that it's trendy for young folks to identify as LGBTQ and that this is why way more young people seem to be identifying as fluid. But is sexual fluidity something that only young people experience? Are we seeing sexual fluidity in older adults as well? What do we know about fluidity across the lifespan?

So again, a simple answer to that is no, that's not true. The research shows that that's not the case.

As I mentioned in our previous episode, the research shows that actually middle-aged people are the least likely to change the way that they talk about their identity or that kind of change their identity. Young people and actually older people are more likely to do it. So it's definitely not true that it's just young people. I think...

When you say, oh, it's trendy, I think you have to consider the fact that being LGBT is still, in most places, unimaginably difficult. And to think that you would just do it as a trend is really, I think, quite a silly thing to say, particularly with the current climate and

It's become easier a little bit in certain places, but it's still really, really hard. And you might be able to acknowledge this or confirm or deny it. But one of the pieces of research that I found really interesting was that of people with left handedness.

And what was found was that when they used to ban left handedness, they used to say that it was wrong. It was the wrong way to be. And they used to try and force everyone in school to be right handed. So not very many people obviously identified as being left handed because you were going to get a row and like, you know.

And then they decided that actually it was normal and it was fine. Like, no biggie. Just like they should for LGBT identities. But we'll see when that happens, hopefully. They realised that it was OK and allowed children to write with the left hand in school. And then, of course, there was a big surge.

So I think that's what we're seeing in certain parts of the world. We're telling young people that actually, do you know what? It's okay. You don't have to be ashamed. It's not sinful. You're not going to go to prison. You could maybe have some civil rights and you can actually live quite a nice life. Okay. So a lot of people are going, oh, well, okay. Yeah, actually. Yeah. Maybe this is me. Great. Hallelujah. But then of course, what happened with left-handedness was there was a plateau, right?

Yeah, so it plateaued out at a natural place. And once that surge happened, and so that's probably what will happen with sexuality and gender identity. It's not something that you should be like, oh, this is this terrible thing as well. Like, even if it is a trend, it's great. Like, how are you harming someone by describing your sexuality or your gender in a certain way?

Like, that's the question to ask. Like, why are you upset about that? I think is a good response to that. Yeah, I think you're right that there will be a plateau at some point in terms of number of people who identify as LGBTQ. It's not just going to keep going up and up and up until everybody is LGBTQ at some point. Maybe it will. Maybe it will, but I'll keep an eye on the data. But I think at some point you're going to see a plateau or leveling off. Yeah.

And I think, you know, you're right that this has a lot to do with changing acceptance of LGBTQ individuals, that we've had an environment in somewhat recent years where there was this expansion of LGBTQ rights, greater social acceptance on things like public opinion polls and so forth, that I think made more people feel comfortable coming out. And it wasn't necessarily that their underlying sexual attractions had changed.

but rather that maybe they just felt more comfortable acknowledging them. And now as we enter a political environment where, you know, there seems to be a reversal, a backsliding in acceptance and support of LGBTQ persons and issues, we might actually see the numbers start to go down because it starts to feel less safe for people to come out. So, yeah, these things...

are intimately intertwined when we're looking at how people are identifying and publicly describing their sexuality and also what the social and political climate is that's surrounding that.

Now, let's talk a little bit about coming out as sexually fluid. So, you know, given the controversy around sexual fluidity, coming out as fluid can sometimes be met with suspicion, especially if you're shifting away from an LGBTQ identity. So tell us a little bit about the process of coming out as fluid and what people's experiences with that might be like. The first thing to say is that most of the time we don't really come out as fluid. We don't usually like

use that term. We might use by or something else, but it's definitely the case that it can be very, very tricky when you try to explain your fluidity or you just try to kind of reference it because a lot of people will have disparaging comments. They might even say, you know, oh, that doesn't exist and that kind of thing. And so it can be really, really difficult to navigate that

I think that everybody is different, but one of the things which really, really works for me and I share with various people is that I think we need to just state it and not necessarily debate it. So what I like to do is I will say it to somebody if it's necessary.

And then if they want to ask genuine questions about it, then I would be happy to talk. That's what I love to do. So no problem there. But if I feel that they are kind of questioning the fundamental existence of it or kind of criticizing it in some way, I would just politely say,

move the conversation on. I will not engage in a debate about fluidity. So I like to talk about it, but then have that boundary. And that works really, really well for me because then I can just be in the energy of, well, this is me, take it or leave it. If you want to be nice, great. Let's talk about it.

But if you're being negative about it, I just don't allow that in. And it tends to work for me. And then the other thing I always think about coming out is like, we're kind of taught that we have to like come out to everyone, you know, and it's this big declaration. And I think that works for people with like certain identities, but for people who are maybe a bit more fluid, sometimes that's not even necessary. So I would always say to people like,

think about who needs to know, you know, and maybe just consider just telling those people. And then also think about

What do they need to know? What is it that they need to know about you? And do they really need to? That's the thing. Sexuality is actually something quite private to a lot of us. So, you know, is it maybe just a partner or maybe someone you're dating or maybe just like close friend or something? So really like have that thought about what do I want to say? Why do I want to say it? And who do I want to say it to? And then just do it your own way.

So as you mentioned, this sort of coming out process for a fluid person might look very different from one to the next. You know, it's not necessarily somebody coming out and saying, I am sexually fluid, but maybe it's that they're changing their sexual identity label from, say, bisexual to lesbian, or it can go in any direction, or maybe they move from one identity to an unlabeled.

identity, right? And that's where the, you know, sort of process of coming out as fluid might come up. It's because there's a shift or a change in the way that they identify or label their sexuality to other people. And, you know, some people might not really understand it. They might not get it. And you shouldn't have to be in the position of having to defend or justify or prove your sexuality to someone else. You know, there are lots of people today who

who seemingly want to be the identity police in terms of telling people whether their sexual identity is valid or not based on, well, are you engaging in behavior that's consistent with that identity and so forth? And it just becomes this whole counterproductive thing when people start questioning other people's sexuality. So yeah, I'm with you in terms of not feeling like you have to defend or prove your sexuality to other people.

And just more generally, we need to get away from the idea of just trying to put people into these little boxes that make everything easy to understand because we just don't fit super well into them. So one last question for you. Do you have any other tips or advice on finding support for people who might be coming to terms with or understanding that they have a fluid sexuality?

Yeah. I mean, first of all, I wrote a book about it. So there isn't a lot of support out there, unfortunately, and I wanted to change that. So I wrote a book where I've put so many tips, like, you know, the definitions of it. We've also got eight other wonderful fluid people from really diverse backgrounds who share their stories, their experiences. There's like exercises in there. There's just like

all kinds of things. So if you feel like this might be you and you want to learn more about it, then you can buy my book Fluid by Mark Cusack and it's available to order anywhere where books are sold.

But apart from that, I think often there are kind of bi groups, stuff like that. And those kind of groups will generally be good places to meet people and to get support if you fall into that category. So you can look up like bisexual groups in my area, also asexual groups. Anything I think where it's like those less represented parts of the community will normally be like

nice, warm, loving places for us fluid people. You can also look on

Sites like Meetup, where you can find like-minded people do activities and things. And then there's also, in terms of dating and things, there's also different apps. So there's apps like BuyCupid, but there's also apps like Field, F-E-E-L-D, these kinds of things, Tamey, that really cater for people who are maybe on that more kind of complex spectrum. You're going to be that by default, right?

like the norm there if you've got a bit more of a kind of complex identity. So if you're looking to date, sometimes those apps can be a good idea. And then another slightly random one is pagan or spiritual new age type groups. I'm a pagan myself and actually fluidity in gender and sexuality is like a big part of

of our kind of beliefs. And so any kind of society group or group of people who are

are in that kind of neck of the woods will often be like a really welcoming place for kind of exploring and expanding. And then, of course, you can also access like coaching, therapy, that kind of thing. There are often therapists and coaches who can really help you with these kind of things. If you go to Not Defining on YouTube or Instagram or Threads, I've got lots of information there.

Yeah, it's definitely about finding your people, finding the relevant resources and seeking out professional help as needed. So thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Mark. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work?

Yeah, absolutely. So my channel is called at not defining, not defining all one word. And we're on YouTube, we're on threads, we're on Instagram, we're on TikTok. We also have a Patreon group where I provide one-on-one mentoring and we have group sessions and everything.

have a podcast of my own where I go really deep into things. So that's patreon.com forward slash not defining. And I also offer one-on-one coaching as well. So you can go to www.notdefining.com and you can find out information there. You can drop me an email. I'd love to chat with you and you are not alone. If you feel like that, I would love to hear from you.

Well, great. I will be sure to include links to all of that in the show notes. So thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here. Thank you so much, Justin. I appreciate it. Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.