Shownotes Transcript
You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Leigh Miller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Think for a moment about the last time you had sex. Who initiated it? Was it you or was it your partner? And what did you or your partner actually do to initiate it?
Now think about a time when one of you tried to initiate sex, but one person turned it down. What was different between those situations? Analyzing our history of sexual initiation can offer some clues into what is and isn't working in our sex lives, including whether we might need to think about approaching sexual initiation in a completely different way. Sexual initiation is a tricky subject for a lot of people. Many people say that they want to initiate more or that they want their partner to initiate more, but they aren't quite sure how to navigate this situation.
So why is sexual initiation so hard for so many of us? And what can we do to make it easier? That's what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to help you to discover your own initiation style as well as that of your partner. We're also going to discuss tips and tricks for initiating sex, what to do when you and your partner have different initiation styles, and healthy ways to navigate situations where you and your partner just aren't on the same page about sex.
For today's episode, we're revisiting one of my favorite conversations from the archives, my interview with Vanessa and Xander Morin. They co-host the Pillow Talks podcast and co-authored the book Sex Talks, five conversations that will transform your love life. This is going to be a wonderful interview that you definitely won't want to miss. It's so good that I just had to play it a second time.
Before we get to it, here is today's Level Up Your Love Life segment presented by Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Masterclass recently launched the Art of Sex Appeal class. Featuring Shan Boodram as the instructor, this class aims to teach you how to flirt better and attract the person you're looking for, how to create deeper emotional intimacy and meaningful connections, sexual positions and techniques for more fulfilling sex, and so much more. I love this class and I think you're going to get a lot out of it.
In our Level Up Your Love Life segments, we're going to highlight key lessons from the class that can help you in cultivating a hotter and healthier sex life. Today, we're diving into the topic of turn-on triggers, which is relevant to today's show because understanding your own and your partner's turn-on triggers is crucial to finding forms of sexual initiation that will work well in your relationship. All right, let's dive in.
So Shan discusses a number of different turn-on triggers in the class, but there's one crucial one that I want to focus on here because I see it come up over and over again in my research, and that is feeling desired by your partner. In the studies of sexual fantasies that I've done, I find that wanting to be wanted is one of the biggest themes in people's fantasies. It's that feeling of being sexually irresistible to someone else.
This not only makes us feel validated and sexually confident, but it's also a huge turn-on to be with someone who has such overwhelming desire for us because it brings an element of passion and excitement into the mix. If you can make your partner feel desired when you make an initiation attempt, it's going to increase the chances that your partner will be receptive to it.
However, in the context of a long-term monogamous relationship, it can be a little tricky to make your partner feel desired in a credible way because your monogamous partner doesn't have the option to be with anyone else. They have to choose you, right?
And so what happens is that sometimes people stop believing in their partner's desire for them. And when you stop believing in your partner's desire and start feeling as though your partner is only initiating sex with you because they have to, as opposed to something that they really want to do, your desire for sex can really fall off of a cliff. So when you're thinking about how to initiate sex, think about approaching it in a way that's going to communicate just how much desire you have for your partner.
Regardless of your gender or sexual orientation, this is really important. Contrary to popular belief, men want to feel desired by their partner just as much as women do. So here are four things you can do to communicate sexual desire. First and most obviously, compliment them. For example, maybe when they're getting dressed or undressed, you'll say something that you really like about their body. Or maybe when they get all dressed up for a night out, you'll tell them how amazing they look and how it's kind of turning you on.
All too often in long-term relationships, one partner will ask the other how they look. Their partner will glance up and say, you look good, before returning their attention to something else. Use those opportunities to really compliment your partner, give them some attention, and convey your desire. Second, keep the flirtation going in your relationship.
Once we exit the honeymoon phase, the flirting often disappears completely. It's important to continue to do things that make our partners know that we're still thinking about them sexually. Maybe that's sending them the occasional naughty text or photo. Maybe it's surprising them with some sexy new underwear or lingerie. Or maybe it's giving them some suggestive looks. Find ways to bring the flirtiness back that feel fun and natural to you. Third, incorporate more non-sexual touch into your relationship.
This could be coming up behind your partner while they're seated and giving them a little back or shoulder rub. Maybe it's holding their hand or stroking their arm while you're watching TV together. Or maybe it's asking for a little snuggle time. The non-sexual touch really helps us to stay connected while also helping us to feel wanted. Lastly, make sure that you're initiating sex at least some of the time. Partners often fall into a pattern where the initiation responsibility falls almost exclusively on one person.
When you have this kind of dynamic, the initiator can start to feel like they aren't desired because their partner isn't ever returning the favor and also because it's easy to not feel wanted when your partner turns down an initiation attempt. So make initiation a two-way street or three or four-way street, depending on how many people are involved. All right, that wraps up today's Level Up Your Love Life segment presented by Masterclass. A huge thank you to our friends over at Masterclass for sponsoring this segment and helping us all to learn and grow.
We have much more ahead on today's show, so stick around and we're going to jump in right after this short break. Applications are now open for the next Human Sexuality Intensive course at the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University. This course takes an interdisciplinary, evidence-based approach to exploring foundational concepts in the study of human sexuality, as well as recent developments and research in the field. This course is relevant to professionals, academics, and individuals in any field where a foundational understanding of human sexuality is beneficial.
This course is open to both emerging and established professionals looking to specialize their knowledge, as well as those seeking new career directions. To learn more, visit KinseyInstitute.org and be sure to follow at Kinsey Institute on the socials.
Okay, let's talk about sexual initiation. This is a subject that so many people struggle with. And I think one of the reasons for this is that, you know, if you're thinking about the early stages of a relationship where you've got the passion, you can't keep your hands off each other, you know, there's this spark that can kind of, you know, let it happen a little bit more easily. But, you know, when you don't have that same level of
passion, you might be wondering like, how does sex happen? You know, so it needs to be formally initiated and you have to figure out what works, but it's not always going to work because there are going to be differences across different situations. There's also this whole fear of rejection thing, but I'm curious to hear from both of you, your thoughts on this, you know, why do you think initiating sex is so hard for people?
It's hard because it puts us in the position of being turned down. And we all hate being turned down, right? And rejection is such a big part of our sex lives. I mean, no matter how compatible the two of you might be, how on the same page you might be, you are going to turn each other down for sex.
And it stings when that happens. So I think a lot of us, we feel that sting and we retreat. We don't want to feel it again. We don't want to put ourselves out there and, you know, be in that position again. And that's one of the biggest challenges of having a great sex life is that we have to get comfortable with that sting because it's always going to be a part of our sex life.
And I think also, you know, many of our first experiences when it comes to sex is that talk from your parents, which tends to be a very awkward conversation. We also have, you know, most of us have these awkward conversations.
memories of, you know, kids at school starting to talk about sex. Not everybody knows what everyone's talking about. You know, it's this taboo subject. No one wants to raise their hand and be like, I don't know what that means. Like, can you tell me please? And so we have all these associations of, you know, as soon as something awkward happens around sex, we just kind of want to retreat. We feel ashamed. And so of course, in a situation like that, where, you know, we feel like we've
done something vulnerable and we got turned down, that's going to hurt and just remind us of all those awkward or embarrassing or shameful experiences from the past. Yeah. Now, before we talk about ways of initiating sex, I should say good ways of initiating sex, let's talk about the bad, you know, the things that you shouldn't do that are unlikely to work.
Now, in your book, you talk about several bad approaches, like the boob honk, you know, where one partner reaches around, squeezes the other's breast or chest like they're honking a horn. Maybe that's a turn on, maybe even a kink for some people, but maybe not the best way to go in general. And, you know, it's also possible that maybe in, say, the very early stages of a relationship, something like that might be...
be a way to initiate sex. It's a novelty, but could quickly become very annoying in a long-term relationship, right? So I think that's one of the other problems with initiation is people sometimes try things once and it works and they just keep going back to that over and over and it eventually becomes annoying and irritating rather than arousing. So what are some examples of not so great initiation techniques?
One of the big things that we tend to do in long-term relationships is because we feel so vulnerable, we try to kind of turn it into a little bit of a joke so that we can play it off if our partner turns us down. So the boob honk is the classic example of
that of like, oh, I was just joking. I wasn't actually trying to initiate sex with you. We also hear, you know, a lot of people will say my partner will just whip out his penis and be like flopping it around like a little helicopter. Like that's supposed to turn me on. It's the same sort of thing. Like, oh, I was just joking. I wasn't actually, you know, trying to initiate. Or even just sort of like dumb sex jokes like, oh, that's what she said. Yeah.
Or, you know, oh, why don't you come over here and sit on my face? Like it's this plausible deniability where you're hoping that maybe your partner goes, oh, yeah, that's funny. Okay, I'm going to come do that. But if they don't, you're like, oh, obviously, obviously, I was just joking. The other big mistake that people make is we feel so vulnerable that we just don't want to fully put ourselves out there. So we will say something like, well, should we?
It's been a while, you know, that kind of thing. So we talk in the book about how initiation should feel like something that your partner wants to say yes to. If you're just, you know, kind of saying, yeah, it's been a while, like that doesn't feel exciting. It's not something that I feel interested in saying yes to them.
Yeah. I mean, like you wouldn't do that if you are inviting a friend to go hang out. You wouldn't be like, oh God, it's been so long since we hung out. I guess like, I guess we have to go get a drink together or something like your friend is not going to be excited. Like you, you got to kind of sell it to them, right? Like, Hey, like there's this new restaurant that just opened up. Wouldn't it be fun to check it out? Maybe we can, you know, go to
your other fiasco. We'll go get a drink afterwards or before, whatever the case is. So yeah, I mean, like when you are trying to do something fun with someone, usually you try to make a good invitation. So why shouldn't you do the same thing when it comes to sex?
Yeah, so you shouldn't, if you have a penis, just automatically walk into the room and start doing your windmills. You know, it may not work the way that you're thinking it's going to work. And, you know, that's one of the issues with sexual initiation is that these things can be perceived in very different ways by different people. And so I think initiation often has to be very specific to a certain partner.
Now, when it comes to good approaches to sexual initiation, it's pretty idiosyncratic. You know, we talked about individual variability. In your book, you talk about how there are at least six different initiation types or styles that people might have. And to the extent that you can understand your own and you can understand your partner's initiation style, that might be helpful in terms of helping sex to happen. So can you tell us a little bit about these different initiation styles?
I came up with this model because I just think models are such a great way to get conversations opening. So obviously we can't divide all of humanity and all of our uniqueness into six categories, but it's just a great way to start that conversation and say, oh yeah, I never would have thought about it this way. I like this piece of this one, but actually I like this piece of this one too. So it just creates that conversation. But I found that in my work with clients, it's
there were, in general, these six different ways that people liked to be initiated, similar to the love languages. You know, most of us are familiar with that model, but different ways that we like to be approached. So, for example, one of the initiation styles is take care of me. And this style, somebody's really going to appreciate when your partner is taking care of household chores, responsibilities, taking care of you. You want this sense of like,
feeling like you have a teammate in your relationship. So, and it doesn't even have to be necessarily sexual. So it might be seeing your partner just do their chores without having to be reminded or asked to do them. Just taking the initiative to do something that's been on your joint to-do list for a while. So that is,
completely different from, you know, another initiation style, which might be somebody wanting you to touch them, you know, to have a lot of physical contact. I want you to hold me. I want us to cuddle on the couch. I want us to make out for a long time. I want you to just touch me all over my body. So they're, you know, wildly different types.
So if you have this conversation about which one or ones you find yourself resonating with the most, then that's such a great way to open up the door to figuring out, okay, what are the specific ways that I can initiate then? So do the two of you, if you don't mind me asking, have similar or different initiation styles?
We tend to have similar initiation styles, which has been good for us. I mean, we both tend to like to be very playful with initiation. So I think that's another great example. A lot of us think of initiation, and especially when you hear us say like, hey, it needs to be exciting. It needs to feel like an invitation. But we actually like being super playful with our initiation. So some of our favorite times of initiating have been
We made a bet on something, you know, who's going to win this game or who's right about this trivia question, you know, and the winner gets oral sex or the winner gets to be on bottom or whatever it is. But we're just very, you know, we're playful and goofy people.
And we like being able to be playful and goofy with the initiation. So though I do think like one one area where we have had some really good conversations is around physical touch. Like, you know, when it comes to like the love languages, I'm definitely more of a physical touch person than Vanessa is. So like when it comes to initiation, like I I definitely do appreciate some touch. And so, yeah, it's been really interesting to have conversations of, you know, what is it like for
Vanessa to have like a random hug in the middle of the day or something, you know, versus what it's like for me. And, you know, it's helped us get a better understanding of what that is like for each of us and then why we could each kind of stretch ourselves out of our comfort zones a bit to do things that the other likes.
So I'm wondering if you can give us a few more examples of how people can go about initiating sex in healthy ways. I know we just talked about how there are these different styles and, you know, different people are going to have different preferences. But, you know, a lot of people don't really have a template for, you know, how do you go about initiating sex other than saying you don't want to do it, do you? You know, it's just kind of like...
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What are some other ways that initiation can look so that people have, you know, a sort of bigger tool set for how they can approach this?
Yeah. So another interesting one could be coming up with some sort of code word or phrase that feels like a funny inside joke or feels kind of sexy to you. So we recommend this one a lot to parents who might have kids around during the day. You're not wanting to be super obvious with each other. So it's this little phrase. And we've had a lot of couples say, we got really funny with this phrase. We got to go do the taxes or we need to plan Christmas presents so nobody can interrupt us. Yeah.
They're doing taxes all year round. All year round. It's the tax fantasy, the whole tax role play. So that could be one. Another thing could be having a song that you kind of agree on. It's your little sexy song, so one person might put it on. You can also do something with a physical object. So maybe you have a scrunchie hair tie that you put on your bedside table when you're open to it.
So those are some interesting ways that you can initiate and make it feel. And I think those are good ones for people who might be feeling a little bit nervous, too. Like, I don't want to go into the, you know, now I've got to be super suave and seductive and plan this whole night. Yeah.
But I think one of the ways that people get really hung up on initiation is we feel like we really at all costs, we don't want to get turned down and we don't want to feel that awkwardness. We don't like that feeling of vulnerability when the person doesn't accept
And I think we try to really reframe that, like being turned down, being vulnerable, like that's the price of admission to being in a relationship. Your partner's never always going to want the exact same thing as you at the exact
same time. And so I think that, you know, a lot of people think the goal should be that no one is ever turned down. And we try to flip that around and say, well, you are going to get turned down sometimes. That is, you know, that's a reality of life. So instead, you can talk about what are ways that would feel like a good way to turn me down? What's something that you could say where I could feel like, okay, it's not about me. You know, this isn't an insult to me. Like this is
It's not me being turned down as a person. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, thinking about your book and the way you describe it in there, you know, you talk about how people have this expectation that when they initiate sex, they're
Their partner should automatically be on the same page. But we only hold that expectation when it comes to sex. We don't expect that for everything else in life. I mean, I know that my partner might not want to eat or go to sleep at the exact same time that I want to. But, you know, we find a way to make that work without it turning into a fight.
But if one person wants sex and the other one doesn't, it's like, whoa, that's like this whole other thing. So we really do need to change our mindset in terms of how we think about this and how we hear no when a partner isn't interested in sex at the same exact moment that we are. So I'm wondering if you have some tips on how...
One, you can kind of communicate no in a way that doesn't sting quite so much. And then also how you can hear no without taking it to this deeply personal place.
You make such a good point that we don't have this expectation outside of the bedroom that we should be exactly on the same page whenever one person invites the other to do something. Sometimes when our partner initiates, it can almost feel like a pop quiz. Like, oh, God, I'm caught off guard. I was supposed to have been turned on. You know, I'm now supposed to be like wildly excited about saying yes. I'm not ready. I haven't studied. I know. I haven't studied. Yeah.
So we encourage couples to expand the timeframe of initiation. It does not need to be that in that exact moment you should have been as wildly turned on as your partner was. So I like using the phrase open, like the word open. Are you open to being intimate? And asking yourself in that moment, am I open to being intimate? So it's a subtle but powerful reminder that the goal was not being on exactly the same page in that moment.
And oftentimes what a lot of people will find is that if we prolong when we are giving our response, we give ourselves more opportunity to be into it in that moment. So a great example is, you know, could we allow ourselves to cuddle on the couch, to start making out? You give me a back massage. We start talking dirty. Maybe we read some erotica and see if we're interested in continuing to go further from there. So not looking at it as this, you know,
black or white, in the moment, yes or no type of thing. So if you're not interested, though, maybe you are just a hard no in that moment. Maybe you did give yourself a little bit more time and you didn't end up being interested in it. I like encouraging couples to talk about why they're not able to show up for themselves and for their partner in that moment. So if I were to say something to Xander like,
you know what? I just have a really bad stomach ache. And I know that if we were to be intimate, I would be more focused on the stomach ache and I wouldn't be able to be present with you, connected with you, have fun with you. And I just don't want to do that. So what if we did something else instead? Or what if we did it some other night? So I'm making it clear to him that
That it's about my inability to show up in the way that I want rather than, oh, I am not turned on by you and you are not sexy and this is not happening, right? Like it softens it a lot. Yeah, I think it's so important because we've all had the experience of,
Having sex with a partner who we can tell is not totally into it or they're not totally present. Right. And that's never a good experience. So if you can hear something like what Vanessa just said, I think that helps you identify. Oh, yeah, I don't want to have that type of experience rather than just this, you know, kind of like a stark experience.
no. And you're left feeling like, wait, did I do something wrong here? And also what she said about suggesting something else, if you're open to suggesting something else, I think is a great way to pivot what could have been a disconnecting experience where each of you come away feeling kind of bad about how things went, suggesting some other form of physical intimacy or emotional intimacy so that you can be like, okay, yeah, I wanted sex and we're not having sex, but
we're cuddling instead. And that feels really good. And we feel closer as a result of that instead of further apart. Yeah. I love everything you just said. And one of the things I like to talk about when I discuss sexual initiation is to think of it as a slower process, because so many people, when they think about initiation, they think it means I'm asking my partner to have sex and we're going to do it right now. Right. And so
The timeframe that we allow for this is just so small. And initiation is something you can start early in the week, early in the day, early in the evening, you know, and this can play out over a prolonged period of time. So I think for the person who is initiating, thinking about this as, you know, this is a process that can unfold. And then for the person who might be hearing that offer of initiation, giving it some time to think about it, to set in instead of offering that immediate
but no shutting it down is a great way to think about it. Think of initiation as a slower process. Now, let's say two partners just have totally different initiation styles. You know, maybe one of them is really into the physical touch. That's what gets them going. Maybe the other one really needs the emotional connection first. That situation can be frustrating because it feels like you need to initiate in a way that just doesn't feel natural to you. It feels totally foreign.
and it can make sex feel like work instead of fun. So do you have any tips on how to navigate sex when you and your partner just have very different initiation styles?
It's always challenging when we have any sort of different interests in the bedroom. So I just want to validate that experience. There are going to be times that it does feel like work and it does feel like you're on different pages. But I think if you have these conversations about the styles and you're able to share with each other, this is what excites me.
So sometimes it's, you know, when we feel like we're on different pages, it feels like we're opponents. You know, we're not on the same team with each other. But, you know, if Xander were to say to me, if you did this, it would really excite me. It would make me feel so good. It would make me
really want to connect with you, there's a way that that softens for me. It's not him telling me, you're doing it the wrong way. Stop doing that. He's showing me how I can be successful. And if I feel that reciprocation from him where he's willing to initiate with me in my way, even though it might not be the sexiest thing for him, I think seeing that willingness on each other's parts, it does really soften it. And it feels like, yeah, I know what to do to be successful. Yeah.
And I think also, you know, over time, your opinion of whatever it is that you're doing can change a bit. Like, you know, when I was talking about connection and the ways that Vanessa loves to be connected with and giving her certain compliments, it took me a long time to really internalize that that actually worked. Like, that was...
a strong part of me that just didn't almost like didn't believe it. Like it was, it was too easy. It felt too foreign to me, but over time, you know, I, I built a habit of, oh, okay, this is what I do. And I trust, you know, I really do trust that the result does work. And I think the same is true with initiation that, you know, the first couple of times you're initiating in a different way, you
it can feel awkward. It can feel a little uncomfortable because it's not the way that, you know, you would do it for yourself. But I think that
you know, if your partner puts in a good faith effort of really showing like, oh, that thing you're doing is really working for me, that's an enjoyable experience right there. So if you're able to enjoy seeing your partner really enjoying it, and that's a way that you can kind of feel like a team when it comes to that. And then, you know, hopefully your partner can reciprocate for you, you know, at a different time or find a way to kind of meld the
each of your approaches. And compliments. I mean, giving each other that positive feedback of, I really appreciated that you initiated that way. That was so sexy to me. It got me in the mood. That positive reinforcement is going to help your partner feel more comfortable.
Yeah, what you're describing sounds very much like what we call in social psychology, sexual communal strength, where there is this willingness to maybe sacrifice your own self-interest for the benefit of your partner, but you're each going to take turns doing this. And so everyone wins in that situation. And people who have that sort of give and take,
tend to be the most sexually satisfied and the happiest in their relationships. But things don't always have that mutuality or reciprocal nature to them. You know, sometimes people find themselves in relationships where it feels like sexual initiation is very one-sided, where there's just one partner who's always initiating and then often another partner who is turning them down a lot, right? So just one other question for you is, let's say you're in a relationship where you'd like your partner to initiate more,
How can you suggest to them or bring up this idea in a productive way that might provide some of that mutuality?
Positive reinforcement. I'm always going to come back to positive reinforcement. So sharing with your partner, what does it feel like for you when your partner initiates? It's so easy for us to just say, you never initiate. I want you to initiate more often. But what is that feeling for you? So if you can share it with your partner, make it something that they want to do rather than you telling them they're doing it wrong or they're doing a bad job, that can be really beneficial. Another very practical thing that Xander and I have done
in our relationship is if one of us is going to turn the other down, we kind of have this rule of, okay, if I'm turning Xander down, I have 48 hours to initiate sex on my terms. So couples can do this with different timelines. It might not work for every couple, but we really liked that idea because it helped us balance the vulnerabilities.
So it wasn't like I was signing a contract and I absolutely have to do it, but it was like a cue to me of like, hey, he was really vulnerable and he did feel that sting. And so now it's my turn to step up and be vulnerable and show him that I do want to connect. So that was something that really helped balance things out in our relationship.
Yeah. And I can see how that could work for some people, but also how that would feel very intimidating to other people. That's like, oh, I just said no. Now the clock has started. I got 48 hours to get in the mood, you know? So, you know, if that is something that creates pressure for you, you know, that might not be the right approach for you, but I can see how that could work for some people. So I appreciate that and all of the other advice and suggestions that you shared today and everything that went into your book, Sex Talks, because I think it's a really great resource for people.
So can you tell us a little bit more about where people can go to learn more about you and your work and get a copy of your new book?
Yeah, we would love to connect with anyone in your audience. You can find all the information about the book at sextalksbook.com. We have all the links to the major retailers, and we also have some free gifts that we are giving away if you fill out the quick little form on that page. So that has everything about, yeah, what the book is all about, what you can expect from it. And then we are most active over on Instagram. You want to give our Instagram? Yeah.
Yeah, you can find us at Vanessa and Xander. That's Xander with an X. We show up in stories every day. We do a lot of funny stuff. We answer people's questions. We have a lot of fun over there. And we also have a podcast called Pillow Talks, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts. Well, thank you for joining me today. And thank you for all of your amazing contributions. I really appreciate having you here. Thank you.
Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.
You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.