Episode 393: What Happened To My Sex Life?
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You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. What happened to my sex life? Almost anyone who's been in a long-term relationship can attest to the fact that they've probably asked themselves this question at some point.

It's common for partners in a new relationship to start off being completely in sync when it comes to sex. And that initial compatibility and excitement is part of what fuels relationship development. But at some point, the passion starts to wane and people often start wondering what the heck happened. Is there a problem with me, my partner, our relationship? In today's show, we're going to help you to better understand why desire, pleasure, and connection often decline in long-term relationships and what to do about it.

Some of the specific topics we'll explore include what to do when it feels like you and your partner have become roommates instead of lovers, how to create space for sex if you become too enmeshed and codependent, how to deal with unresolved anger and resentment in relationships, tips for moving beyond trauma, and more. I am joined by Dr. Kate Valastrari, a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist. She is the founder of Modern Intimacy, a counseling practice that operates in Los Angeles, Miami, and Chicago.

She is author of the new book, What Happened to My Sex Life? A Sex Therapist's Guide to Reclaiming Lost Desire, Connection, and Pleasure. This is going to be another amazing and very practical conversation. Stick around and we're going to jump in right after the break.

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Hi Kate, and welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks so much for joining me. So you have a new book out called What Happened to My Sex Life? And you start this book with a bit of a personal story where you talk about how you were pondering this exact question, what happened to my sex life? And

And I appreciate your vulnerability in talking about this because I think people have a tendency to assume that if you're a sex therapist or educator, that you just naturally have everything all figured out, that you're having sex all the time and that the sex is always going to be great. But that's not exactly true. You know, just because you happen to know a lot about sex doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to have a perfect sex life, right?

Oh, so true. So true. And when you're talking about partnered sex, so much of your sex life is contingent on how all the partners involved are showing up in that conversation too. So it's messy, just like for people who aren't in our field. Yeah, it's so true. Like there's the perception versus the reality. These are two different things.

You know, I think people have a lot of stereotypes about sex educators, researchers and therapists. They think they were all horny all the time, having all the sex. But, you know, the reality of it is quite different. And there have actually been some studies done finding that, you know, the sex lives of people who work in the sexuality industry in terms of research, therapy and education, you know, they really aren't that different from those of anybody else. And we experience the same problems and issues that everybody else does, too.

We do, despite the fantasy that we might be swinging from the chandeliers every weekend. Exactly. So a heck of a lot of people right now are probably asking themselves, what happened to my sex life? You know, it's a common experience that when a relationship starts, that the sex comes pretty easy. You know, we have it frequently. We can't keep our hands off of each other. It's passionate. It's exciting. But unfortunately, the honeymoon rarely lasts.

And sometimes the sex disappears entirely or it becomes just a very infrequent thing. And when this happens, the first question a lot of people ask themselves is, is there something wrong with me or am I broken? So as a therapist, if someone is asking themselves those questions, what do you want them to know?

The first thing I want them to know is that there's nothing wrong with you and you're not broken, right? Even if there are intrinsic variables that are playing a role in the shift that you're having around desire, it doesn't mean that the problem is you, right? We often internalize a lot that is not ours to hold when it comes to our relationship with sex.

So if you can let go of that fear and just lean into the reality that desire ebbs and flows in relationships across the developmental lifespan of our lives, I think you'll be able to give yourself a lot more grace, which paradoxically can bring you closer to a solution.

Yeah, and that's one of the things that I think is hard for a lot of people to do is to give themselves that grace. You know, we're very hard on ourselves, especially when it comes to our sex lives and sexual performance related issues. You know, we tend to take these things very seriously.

deeply personally. And, you know, that can make it hard, I think, for a lot of people who are struggling with things like low desire or if they have erectile difficulties or pain with sex. You know, the assumption is that there's something inherently wrong with me. But I think what you suggested there in terms of like reframing this and understanding like you're not broken, like these things are normal experiences and there are solutions out there can be a very helpful way of thinking about it.

Yeah, for sure. And one of the most difficult, but there's where working with a sex therapist or having friends who are super supportive can be really helpful in challenging those hard thoughts to redirect.

Absolutely. And that is why sex therapy is so valuable because so many people really struggle with reframing the way that they're thinking about sex. And so having somebody who can really help guide you through it and do this in a safe way, in a safe space, can be very valuable.

Now, when desire for sex disappears, there can potentially be multiple reasons and none of them mean that you're broken. But there can be biological factors like hormones. There could be psychological factors like previous experiences with trauma. And there can also be relationship factors, you know, conflict that you might be experiencing with your partner. And sometimes it's a combination of multiple factors all at once.

But let's talk about some of them and what you can do if one of them becomes an issue that starts impacting desire for sex and your enjoyment of it.

So let's start with some relationship factors. And one that I want to talk about is the roommate dynamic. You know, all too often a relationship that starts out being highly passionate and intimate turns into a passionless affair. You know, the romance and the sex start to take a backseat. You might still love each other very much and love each other very deeply, but you start seeing each other more as kind of like a friend or a roommate than as a lover. So what can you do if you've found that you've entered that roommate phase?

Yeah, it's so common and definitely one of the variables that plagued my partner and I in this lull.

It's important to really recognize that when you're in that space, different priorities, different drives have likely taken over. There's often more safety that comes with the familiarity of knowing someone for such a long time and having such a well-established relationship. So it's important not to get super discouraged straight away because it can actually be an indication that there are other really positive things

valuable things in your relationship that have been front and center for longer. But getting back to that place of holding space for desire, I think about

Jack Morin's commentary about desire being about attraction and obstacle, right? And when you have so much safety and so much familiarity in your long-term partnership, you do start to feel kind of like family. You get more and more comfortable with each other. And when you live together, especially, you're doing things that are super domestic and it can bring us back to these earlier attachment dynamics

that were more present when we were growing up with our family of origin. So we start to relate to our partner like they are part of our family. And they are our chosen family as we mature and grow.

So I think the first thing to remember is that a little bit of space psychologically and sometimes physically can help create some of that obstacle in a good way. Because when you are less familiar, you want to know more about your partner and your partner wants to know more about you. So really thinking about your psychic individuation and your individuality is going to be a first step to kind of

claiming some of the space and curating the space that will actually bring you closer together in the bedroom.

Yeah, I think everything you said there is totally spot on. And it's important to recognize that if you've entered this sort of friend zone with your partner, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a permanent state and that you're going to stay there forever. You can move back out of it. It's normal for people to kind of have these ebbs and flows over time in their relationship and for it to kind of change form a little bit. But just because you've become more of the roommates doesn't mean that you can't go back to also being the passionate lovers.

And I think you're so right that, you know, having a certain amount of space in the relationship can be really helpful because, you know, when you have this roommate dynamic, there's often this codependence that is going alongside of it, right? And we talk a lot about the importance of closeness and intimacy in relationships. And while it's certainly important to be close with your partner, you can have too much of a good thing.

You know, just as a complete lack of closeness can kill desire, being too close to one another can actually do the same thing. You know, so there's some kind of like happy medium that you need to find here. Right. So what are some ways you think in which partners can give each other a little bit more space so that they can become a little less codependent and enmeshed? You know, it's easy to say you need to have more space in your relationship, but how do you do that?

Yeah, I really think it is a psychological step as much as it might be a physical one. So how I tend to conceptualize it is how do you work together to give each other enough time that you can really invest in your own development as a human? So that looks like making sure that responsibilities around your home when it comes to emotional labor, domestic labor, child care, labor, all of that.

are spread pretty equitably so that you both have time to like be in your body, have your hobbies, hang out with your friends, read a book, be curious about the world. And when you have time to do that individually, you have a lot more texture that makes up who you are. And you get to rediscover parts of yourself that may be lie dormant as you let a hobby die out for a little while. So

So really rekindling these other areas of your life that are important to you and bring you vitality and creativity and more layers.

can be, it sounds easy, it's easy in theory, but making the time can be hard. But that can be an easier step to sort of thinking about how am I in renewal with myself and honoring my ongoing evolution as a human. And the more you learn about that process, you're bringing that back into your relationship. And it creates these natural opportunities for you and your partner to be like, wow,

I didn't know that about you. I didn't know you thought that way about that. And you have all of these things that now create a space for novelty and reinvigor in your dynamic. And that's exciting. And it's dopaminergic. And guess what else is dopaminergic? Lust. Yeah, it's so true. And I think there's so many different ways that you can go about this. You know, I'm thinking about in my own life, like...

how I kind of create some of that space that I need. And, you know, for me, sometimes that's, I just go take a very long bath and close the door and listen to an audio book for a while and relax and have a glass of wine. But it's also about, you know, my partner and I having some different social activities that we do so that every time we leave the house, it isn't always together.

So, for example, we each joined different kickball teams. And, you know, that also adds like a little bit of a competitive dynamic because sometimes we play against each other. But, you know, it's a way that we can go out and we're able to cultivate some friendships on our own. And, you know, I think that's an issue in a lot of long term relationships is that you become your one and only for your partner and all of the previous friendships that you had kind of fall by the wayside.

And, you know, you just spend all of your time together. And I think it's important to allow space for each of you to have your own friends, to do your own social things so that you can go out and explore different facets of the self, but also not just rely on your partner for everything. You know, I think part of the issue here is just we have so many needs. And when we put them all on another person, that can also be one of those things that gets in the way of our ability to feel desire.

Absolutely. And what ends up happening for couples who don't have some different social circles and different communities that they belong to and really invest in is they tend to, as you said, spend way too much time together. And then they live in this echo chamber. And that really reduces their commitment to intellectual diversity and to cognitive sharpening. And so you kind of get flat.

with each other when you live in that echo chamber. So having the influence of lots of other social perspectives and people and groups and all of that is really important in making sure that you're having a lot of, I love the word texture. I'm just going to keep using it because it adds a lot to how you think and how you see the world and how you talk and how you work with other humans.

Yeah, having a highly textured relationship is a good thing. And you know, everything we've been talking about here is also helpful in terms of meeting your needs for self expansion. You know, we've talked about this before on the show that humans have this need to fundamentally grow and expand their sense of self over time. And so, you know, by continuing to go out and venture out into the world on your own sometimes and making new friends and trying new and different things,

helps to meet and fulfill those needs for self-expansion, which can sometimes get thwarted when we become too codependent and everything in our life just becomes very routine and it's centered around, you know, sitting at home every night and just watching Netflix together, right? There's so much more to life than that. Yes.

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Now, let's talk about some individual factors that can impact desire. So one of them is feeling disconnected from yourself. Sometimes people feel disconnected from their own bodies, which can make sex something that's no longer very pleasurable. And sometimes people feel disconnected from their own desires and turn ons. So I was wondering if you could share some tips on how we can stay more connected to pleasure.

Absolutely. In the book and in the work that I do, one of the main things that I try to incorporate with folks is some kind of physical commitment to movement. It doesn't have to be really aggressive exercise. This is not a goal of getting fit or being your most chiseled ab self. It's really just a commitment to understanding how you feel sensations in your body and

and being present with them. So it can be something gentle like seated yoga or stretching, but really engaging in a more mindful, more present experience of your body is maybe going to bring up some uncomfortable sensations and feelings.

but it also completely expands our capacity for pleasure and our ability to really know the difference between what feels good and what doesn't. So we can set more appropriate boundaries. We can say yes more enthusiastically. We can ask for more of something, right? When we're kind of cut off from ourselves, we have a hard time discerning what we want, when we want it, and in what ways.

Yeah, and I think for some people, this disconnection from the self in some ways is kind of a coping mechanism. You know, some people don't want to be alone with their thoughts. Like the idea of that can be a little bit scary for them. And so they kind of learn to disconnect or dissociate in some ways.

And while in the short term, maybe that is adaptive for them in the long run, especially when it comes to something like your sex life, being disconnected from your body is typically a bad thing because when you're not present and in the moment, it's very difficult to really feel pleasure and to enjoy sex and also just even for desire to set in. So it is important to find ways, whether it's through mindfulness practices or some embodiment practices,

that you can learn to be present and in the moment. And it's something that I think is important to recognize that it's a skill that takes some time to build, right? You can't expect that you're gonna just like turn this off and on like a switch that you can suddenly like become more present and embodied. Like it's really a skill that you need to build.

Yeah, it's a practice, right? I call it a movement practice because we have to exercise that interoception, our skill of understanding the perceptions within, right? And it goes away when we are being self-protective or when we're so busy or when we're running from

this demand to that demand. We sort of live like little floating heads. And I find that a recommitment into the body and into the sensations is something that can be done in really small moments. It doesn't have to be this giant elaborate lifestyle change, which is good because it's portable. You can do it anywhere, but it does require a commitment and some practice.

Yeah, and I think you're so right that this is something that you can do in small chunks. Like just a few minutes a day is enough to kind of get started here. And I think, you know, when we talk about lifestyle change,

Many people want to make lifestyle change, but they just find the idea of it to be so overwhelming, like as it feels like it's going to be so much. And so I think this is one of the things where it can be reassuring for people to know that, you know, in just a couple minutes a day, like there are things you can do to take these proactive steps that can help you on this journey. And again, recognize it's not going to happen overnight, but just doing things in little baby steps like this can be super helpful.

Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of throwing a yoga mat down in a place in your home that you traffic regularly, somewhere between like the bedroom and the bathroom or the bedroom and the kitchen, something like that, where it's not in the way, but you do have to see it when you're moving through the house. So it's a reminder. And just sitting down, setting your alarm on your phone for a minute and just stretch a little bit or take a few deep breaths.

practice something that is small digestible bite-sized and it can make a huge difference

Absolutely. Now, another individual factor that can get in the way of desire and pleasure is unresolved emotions. And one that you talk about extensively in the book is anger, right? So many of us are walking around with unresolved anger that's getting in the way of our sex life. And it's because many of us are just suppressing that anger instead of dealing with it, or because we're just not sure how to deal with it constructively.

So I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about how we can address things like anger and resentment in healthy ways that can open the door to more desire.

Yeah, I love that you're asking this question because a lot of folks are really afraid of being in touch with their anger because there's this over coupling of the feeling of anger and the expression of anger. And these are really different things. How we express our anger can be super constructive or really backfire for us.

But anger as an emotion is a really important emotion. It's so informative. And it tells us when someone is not treating us right, when we feel something is unjust. It also tells us when we need to be an advocacy for ourselves or other people. And it's really important. So when we're not paying attention to it,

We often do feel really shut down, especially if you're internalizing that anger. Oh man, can it really get in the way of all things pleasurable? But learning how to express it constructively, I think requires a few things. One, giving yourself permission to even feel it. And then maybe talking with someone who you admire, how they handle their anger, asking questions like, how did you move this out of you? So some people do that through really active breath work.

Some folks do it through running. Some people do it through singing. Some people do it through writing and saying all the things they want to say, but not telling it to whomever they want to say it to. Or you can really try to find a way to express it constructively, directly, assertively to whomever is the person that you're feeling these feelings toward, if it's a person.

But it is really important to move it through you some way somatically because it does just fester. It can lead to all kinds of health issues in addition to big drop-offs and desire.

Yeah, holding on to anger is something that can really be destructive in the long run, not just for your own health, but for the health of a relationship, you know, if you have all of this unresolved conflict that's going on. And, you know, it's easier said than done when it comes to resolving and dealing with some of these complex emotions, but we all need to find some form of catharsis, you know, some form of release. And as you said, you know, different things work.

work for different people. And for some people, it's physical activity. For some people, it's some type of emotional expression. For other people, it's having some kind of creative outlet. And so it might involve you trying a few different things to kind of figure out, well, what works for you and what actually feels like release to you. So I think as with anything, there's no one size fits all answer. You kind of need to try a few different things and see what works for you.

Yeah, but definitely important to think about what direction does your anger typically flow? Are you an internalizer? Because if you are, you might want to look at something that really channels it outward. And if you're someone who has a hard time containing your anger because it gets so explosive, what does it look like to metabolize it and move it in a different direction somatically through you? So even just thinking energetically about

where your anger flows, where it starts in your body and how it moves in you and outside of you can be a really useful skill in thinking about where to go next. Yeah, definitely. Now, one of the factors that you discuss in your book that can impact desire, arousal, and pleasure is trauma. Now, sexual trauma, of course, can take a lot of different forms, including everything from assault to boundary violations to a partner committing infidelity.

But for people who've experienced some kind of trauma, a common question they ask themselves is, "Why can't I move on?" You know, trauma can make it sometimes impossible to feel desire, and it can also make it so that you can never fully relax during sex to the point where you can actually enjoy it. And it can also contribute to painful sex too, because if you've got this trauma response happening, then you might not get fully aroused, and then that can create issues with sexual pain.

Now, dealing with trauma is a complex thing. You know, we could do probably multiple podcasts all about this topic. And again, it's another one where there's no one size fits all answer. But do you have any advice you can share for people who are kind of coping with trauma or having difficulty moving on from a previous trauma?

Yeah, well, I do want to err on the side of caution because there isn't a one size fits all response that works for everyone. So I don't mean to sound reductionistic when I say this, but it will sound reductionistic. I think one of the things that I've noticed most in the work that I do with survivors is that the thing that is the most difficult for them in their bodies is regulating the emotions that are big as a result of trauma, which makes a lot of sense.

And when you feel out of control in your body, it can feel almost re-traumatizing for a lot of people. So that suppression of the emotion is a survival strategy that keeps them relatively intact. But I think one of the main takeaways of my book is that you do have to feel in order to feel.

And that means the pleasure too. So learning how to trust yourself and building skills to help you regulate the hard feelings are going to be the thing that helps you heal from the trauma, but also like reclaim your power, reclaim your confidence in yourself.

Because I think the thing that most folks struggle with when they're healing from trauma, especially a relational trauma, is trust. It's how do I trust other people again? But it's also how do I trust myself? If something happens with these other people, how do I know that I'm going to be okay?

And we don't heal in an isolated vacuum. We heal, we do some of the work ourselves, but we often heal in relationship and in community. So people get stuck when they're in that place of, oh, I've been hurt by people. So how do I learn to trust people again? So I think it's a little bit of a chicken and an egg issue because you've got to start trusting yourself, right? To be discerning in ways that maybe you didn't know how to be discerning before, right?

to get support in new places, to get education if that's something that you think might be useful, to practice different emotion regulation skills. You know, these are things that we have the ability to do on our own, and they can help you start to trust that you can trust other people. Because even if those other people let you down, or they do something that hurts you, you know you've got your own back, and you've built other support systems that

that can catch you when you fall. So I think that issue of trust is really multifaceted, but it is kind of the place to start. Yeah, I think that's all great advice. And, you know, it is in part about kind of rebuilding trust with yourself and with others. And, you know, this is, again, something that's going to be a slow process. And it's something where it's,

In many cases, it might require the help of a therapist to kind of work through that. It's ultimately going to depend on the individual and the nature of the trauma that they endured in order to figure out the path forward in this case. But I think this question also relates back a little bit to what we discussed about how

having these repressed emotions like anger. Like when it comes to trauma, I think people often try to suppress it, you know, try to intentionally not think about it. And the problem with trying to suppress our thoughts and our feelings is that it has this ironic rebound effect. You know, the more we try not to think about something,

Later, it just comes back with a vengeance and we find ourselves having this obsessive preoccupation with it and then we can't stop thinking about it. And so I think when it comes to trauma or when it comes to unresolved anger, you know, whatever it is, if you're intentionally trying to avoid it and not deal with it, that usually ends up creating more problems in the long term.

Totally. The leakage is so real, right? We can only hold that stuff in for so long before it spills into all of the parts of our lives that we're trying to protect it from.

Yeah, definitely. Now, one last factor I wanted to ask you about that can affect desire is stress and burnout. And I think it's fair to say that stress is probably the single biggest libido killer out there. And you know, unfortunately, it only feels like the world we're living in is becoming more stressful by the day. But sometimes we don't always recognize the signs of burnout until it's too late.

So what are some indications that you might be burned out? And do you have any advice on how you might go about finding more balance in your life in a way that can open the door to more desire and pleasure? Yeah, burnout seeps in in these really insidious ways. You might start feeling less pleasure, less joy, less interest in the things that once you were really excited about. You might feel a ton of fatigue sometimes.

in your body. So many folks talk about feeling lethargic and just drained all the time, even if they get a restful sleep. But a lot of folks have sleep disturbances. They're not able to fall asleep. They're not able to stay asleep. And it's not related to a medical condition or medication, right? These are all factors that really can be a good indication that burnout might be creeping in, feeling more irritable, more anxious, and

feeling more pressure around your to-do list. These are signs that burnout is about in your world. And I think when I teach, I teach therapists at the master's level quite a bit, and I

I talk a lot about burnout and the risks of not addressing it early on because when you're good at catching the burnout, because most of us have felt burnt out from time to time, not just in a work capacity, right? You're taking care of your family members, aging parents, children. We do live in a political landscape right now that is absolutely adding to our allostatic load and our fears and our stress and our tension. So lots of folks are feeling it from many different angles.

And if you're not good at catching it and recognizing it and building in rest, it can exacerbate and lead to something in our field that's called compassion fatigue. But I don't just see this for people in the helping fields. I see it for folks in their everyday lives.

when they are not able to or haven't known how to really address that burnout. Because burnout you can address with a nice vacation or like maybe talking to your boss about changing some of the roles at your work or finding a new job, something like that can be reinvigorating. But when you've gone so long, it becomes sort of this really, really difficult thing

almost calcified experience in the body that can shift your whole perception on life into a state of being very negative, feeling really worn, feeling really kind of dead inside. And it takes a bigger commitment to lifestyle changes if it's gotten that far down the road to really see some resolve.

Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize too that burnout can look different for different people. You know, sometimes burnout can manifest as you're sleeping a lot more, like you're sleeping all the time and also not feeling rested. But it can also manifest as you're not sleeping at all or you're having a very difficult time falling asleep or staying asleep.

And so, you know, recognizing the signs of burnout might be a little different from one person to the next. But again, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about kind of being in touch with yourself and how you're feeling and knowing what your triggers are for stress. And, you know, that issue of finding balance, I think,

Again, it's easier said than done. I understand and know a lot about stress and burnout, but I even still have trouble sometimes setting boundaries for myself and sometimes stopping the burnout before it gets too far because we just kind of live in a society that encourages us to kind of be perpetually always on the edge of burnout, especially when it comes to something like your professional life. It can be a tricky thing to address for sure.

It can. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely easier said than accomplished, but important to kind of notice if you feel a big shift in you, that's a good time to get curious because you know what your baseline feels like.

Yeah, and for people who want to learn more about this topic of burnout, I highly recommend Emily Nagoski's book titled Burnout, which helps you to understand the stress cycle and does a very deep dive into that. And we have some previous episodes of the podcast where we've spoken with Emily and have gone in more depth into that subject for people who are curious about learning more.

I'm so glad you brought up Emily's book. Her book is one of the best on burnout I've ever read. And she does such a good job of looking at this relational burnout that I've been talking about. And she talks about Kate Mann's language around patriarchal demands that are put on people in relationships, especially in heterosexual relationships, where

where men get to be human beings and women are expected to be human givers. And Emily Nagoski calls this human giver syndrome. And it's one of the ways that women often get exacerbated, burnt out, and exhausted in their relationships. And we don't talk about it enough. And it is one of the biggest culprits of desire.

Yeah. And speaking of being burned out in relationships, I'm looking forward to chatting with you in the next episode about the topic of parentified relationships. So thanks so much for being here, Kate. I look forward to talking more in the next episode. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work and get a copy of your new book? Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on your show. This was so fun.

For anyone listening, if anything I've said has resonated, you can check out my website at modernintimacy.com. And my book, What Happened to My Sex Life, is available everywhere. You can get books and you can find me on TikTok, Instagram at Dr. Kate Balistrieri and YouTube at Modern Intimacy. Well, great. And I'll be sure to include links to all of that in the show notes. So thanks again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.