Episode 406: Reclaiming Shame-Free Sexuality
30:14 Share

You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Over the last decade, events called slut walks took place all around the world. These protests aim to call attention to rape culture and victim blaming in sexual assault cases.

All too often, people see women who are victims of sexual violence as being responsible for what happened to them. Specifically, that they dressed too provocatively or like a quote-unquote slut and therefore are to blame for what happened. Another goal of these protests, however, was to reclaim the derogatory term slut. Slut is a powerful term that has historically been used as an indictment of women's moral character. And as my guest today argues, as long as terms like this retain their power, we're never going to have true gender equality in the bedroom.

So she argues that it's well past time to reclaim the word slut once and for all. So that's what we're going to be talking about in today's show. We'll delve into the controversy surrounding reclaiming sexual slurs. We'll talk about how the Madonna whore complex hurts everyone. And we'll talk about the path to sexual empowerment.

I am joined once again by Dr. Hilary Caldwell, a sex worker, author, academic, and sexologist. Her bold political memoir, Slutdom, Reclaiming Shame-Free Sexuality, challenges the enduring impact of slut-shaming and argues for a world in which everyone can pursue pleasure on their own terms. This is going to be another fascinating episode. Stick around, and we're going to jump in right after the break. Do you ever find yourself dreaming about a career where you get to talk about sex and psychology all day long?

What if I told you there's a place that can connect you with world-class experts and has a large thriving community? Sexual Health Alliance does just that. Sexual Health Alliance helps you to build the career of your dreams and is at the forefront of sexuality education. Students come from all parts of the world and from all types of backgrounds.

Whether you're in school just starting out on your journey or building advanced skills in your profession, Sexual Health Alliance's comprehensive certifications, engaging events, and self-paced online education will move you beyond the basics and set you up to become sexceptional. Visit sexualhealthalliance.com and start building the sexuality career of your dreams today. And let them know that you heard about Sexual Health Alliance on this podcast. ♪

Okay, Hilary, so you recently published a book titled Sleptum. So let's start there. What's the brief story behind why you wrote this book?

The first story was that I was going to write about my research about women buying sexual experiences and I was going to keep it all very academic. And at the same time, I was writing about these women's sexual empowerment. I was getting this niggling feeling. I don't know if you've ever had this cognitive dissonance before, but you're kind of like, you know, you're not being honest. My real power is...

my sexual confidence that I've gained through sex work the skills that I've gained in sex work have led me to do everything and have taught me everything that I know and I have never been able to own it because I was in the closet for 20 years of hiding I'd suffered a lot for that secret I was being blackmailed I had been extorted for sex I've been stalked raped

because I'm a sex worker, not necessarily while I was working as a sex worker, the secret of being a sex worker was far more dangerous than being out. Because I have four children and now I have 10 grandchildren and it wasn't safe for me to come out as a sex worker when my children were small and vulnerable.

before they had managed to establish their lives. I didn't want their lives to be covered in stigma of my choices. So I kept my sex worker secret, but that secret was dangerous on one hand and the source of my power on the other. And I'm writing about women becoming empowered through their sexual exploits.

And here am I not being honest. Like it was shit to be honest. Now I just realized I had to come out. The world has changed since COVID and OnlyFans. The sex workers are so much more visible. I stand on the shoulders of my past whores who have come out and who have been fine after they came out as sex workers.

So I figured the world has changed and it's time for me to start changing the world a little more. So I decided that my secret coming out like this in the book was a powerful gesture that would actually speak to the problem of stigmatizing sex in general. So I used my story to prove a very strong point about why shaming sexual practice is so damaging to

for women, but for everyone because gender inequality hurts everyone and sexual inequality is because women are shamed and men aren't. And so I just thought I can't suffer this shame in silence anymore. I also took a lot of courage from the Me Too movement.

When the Me Too movement happened, of course, I had been sexually assaulted, but I was too scared to push that hashtag and do my own little post because I don't want my children to know and blah, blah, blah. But then millions of women did. Millions of women did in days. It was the most awesome, powerful thing. And suddenly I was doing it and everyone was doing it. And we realized that the silence about sexual assault was what

actually allows it to continue unabated, unpunished, unquestioned. So silence was the problem. The same thing for sexually shaming in general. So yeah, I wanted to say that if we could be proud about our sexuality, women could be proud if sexual skills were respected, if women could skite on the rooftop, just had an orgasm,

just the same as men could, then we would be equal. We would demand equal orgasms. We wouldn't be an orgasm gap. We would demand equal workplace choices. Things would be so different if we were equal sexually. And all that needs is for women to own it

And say we love sex because we're meant to as biological creatures. And also the social culture has changed a bit in terms of sex itself being so much more established. You understand this, Justin, in your work, because, you know, sex is on Netflix. It's on our ABC, which is a fairly conservative space. Sex is everywhere now. The wellness industry has picked it up. So there is less shame.

It's the time for the sexual revolution to complete. We need to be proud of our sexual exploits. And that was my motivation for writing myself into the story of slutdom. Yeah. So your book is part memoir, part manifesto on sexual politics, and part academic research. So it's a lot of different things all lumped up into one, but it's a fascinating read.

And, you know, I think you make a lot of important points, you know, one being that the stigma around sex work has certainly shifted in the last few years. And I think the rise of OnlyFans and these other big platforms has really kind of contributed in a lot of ways to a normalization of sex work because now...

Most people probably know somebody or maybe even multiple people who are sex workers. Like, I can't tell you how many friends I have who became professional sex workers during the pandemic. And that's still what they're doing today because they created these very lucrative at the time side gigs on some of these big content platforms. And now that's their full-time job. And many of them love that job and can't imagine doing anything else now. So it's a very different world in terms of like,

the stigma around sex work. But there is still, as we've discussed on previous episodes of the show, there is still a, what some people call, "horarchy," where, you know, people in different types of sex work are judged or stigmatized in different kinds of ways. And I think, you know, when you look at people who work in the world of professionally produced porn or who are on the big platforms like OnlyFans, in many ways, they can kind of become like these

many celebrities, whereas, you know, sex workers who are providing direct in-person face-to-face services or who work on the streets, you know, they might experience a very different type or amount of stigma based on the kind of sex work that they do. Yeah, that's absolutely true. The whorearchy is alive. And I think it's just an extension of the Madonna-whore complex. Women want to be good by being modest. And so

they will shame other women who are not in order to elevate themselves. And this is human nature. It's not a criticism of people in general, but that continues throughout the Horak. And as you say, the sex industry is pretty huge and undefinable, so it doesn't have any boundaries or edges. So of course there's going to be, well, like the strippers or women who work in erotic dance, uh,

have traditionally and continue to not want to associate themselves with the word sex work because they feel they're not sex workers, they're dancers. And while we can feel these things, it's not about exactly what we're doing, it's about exactly how we feel things are shameful. And if we're worried about what we're doing, it's much easier to think about someone doing something worse than to really think about what it is we're doing. So it's just a continuation of the whole Madonna Hall complex, which is the problem.

Yeah. So your book opens with a call to reclaim the word slut. And this is a word that is often used to disparage women who are quote unquote overly sexual or overtly sexual. So can you discuss a little bit about what it means to reclaim this word and why you think it's important?

I would like to say it's a privilege to call yourself a slut that I have because I'm now an older woman. I'm financially secure and established in my life and career. I don't need to worry about what my next career is going to be in terms of will I be, you know, you're not allowed to be a police officer if you've been a sex worker and all that sort of thing. So I am in a privileged position where my safety is pretty good emotionally and practically.

But reclaiming the word slight is so important because, and all the words, whore, all the words, if we don't reclaim them, then they're still able to be used against us. And every time a word that means sex is used against us, it makes us feel bad about our sex, which is very deep inside of us. So if we have any words at all that shame us for sex, then...

that's stupid for sex. That's stupid for the continuation of the species. We need to enjoy sex and all the time. But if you can shame and you can only shame women. So that's the bad thing about that is that it causes this terrible inequity, which causes gender violence. So the only way to stop the word

all the words from being hurtful are to really reframe what they are. It's a celebration. Our sexual skills are so wonderful. Having pleasure in our bodies is such a wonderful thing and being able to share that is an even more wonderful thing. So if we can't think of sex like that, then we're doing everybody a disservice.

So it's really important that we actually reclaim it. I know it makes people deeply uncomfortable, deeply. I know women who really intellectually understand what I'm trying to say, but they just can't go there. What if they're...

mother-in-law saw them saying that they were a slut, you know, identifying in that way. It's so deep, that unpacking of that conditioning, that social conditioning that we have to do to reclaim it. I understand how hard it is and I understand that not many people can do it, but I really think it is the only way forward. If we don't reclaim those words, they remain the weapons

of patriarchy and to be used against women at any time. So if you're afraid of being branded a slut at any time, then you're being controlled by patriarchy in a way that is really bad for everyone.

Yeah, you know, this conversation reminds me that I have a shirt in my closet that I bought in Berlin a couple of years ago that just says, "Sluts are people too." And, you know, it's a fun shirt to wear sometimes. But I totally understand the intellectual point you make about, you know, reclaiming the word, but also appreciate, you know, you bringing up that this is a difficult and challenging, complex

subject for a lot of people because, you know, as I was coming up with questions to ask you, I was thinking about how this is something that is a tricky issue for some people. And I was thinking that there's a parallel here with the word queer. You know, there are actually a lot of LGBTQ people who don't identify as queer and don't want to reclaim that word.

And I don't think that necessarily means that they all have some internalized homophobia. You know, I think different people gravitate to different labels for a variety of reasons. And there are often big generational differences in people's willingness to reclaim certain words.

So, you know, in the case of queer, for example, that term is pretty widely used and accepted among young sexual minorities. But for older sexual minorities, many of them really don't like that word and, you know, don't identify with it. And I don't think one view or perspective on this is necessarily right or wrong. Like, I get why different people have different reasons for wanting to reclaim or associate or identify with certain words.

But yeah, it is a tricky thing to have. And it's not just with the word slut. It's also with words like queer and, you know, kind of any of these words that have had a very loaded meaning behind it in the past. Yes, totally agree.

Do you ever have moments where you're like, "Why did no one teach me this?" We've all been there, and this is especially true when it comes to sex and pleasure as an LGBTQ person. That's why I'm a big fan of Beducated, an online platform that offers expert-led, pleasure-based sex education that centers people of all genders and sexualities.

They have more than 100 courses that can help you to enhance intimacy and spice up your sex life. For example, there's a super practical course on strap-on play, covering everything from how to find the right toys and lube for you, to communication techniques, to maximizing pleasure, no matter your gender. Or check out their course on Dirty Talk, which is designed to help anyone who wants to feel more confident in talking dirty.

You can stream all of their courses on your own time, at your own pace, and you can rest assured that they're taught by queer competent and inclusive educators, therapists, and sexologists who get it. Beducated is where toe-curling pleasure meets expert-backed education for all. Get 50% off the yearly pass by using my last name, Lay Miller, as the coupon code. Try Beducated risk-free with a 14-day money-back guarantee. Check the show notes for the link and be sure to use my last name to get your discount.

So this conversation has me thinking about a recent media interview I did where I was asked to provide some advice to a heterosexual guy who is married to a woman who wants to be dominated in bed. She wants to be tied up. She wants to be called names. She's into consensual non-consent and so on.

And the guy was really struggling with this because he genuinely wants to please his partner, but he's uncomfortable indulging her sexual requests because essentially he feels that in treating her as a slut and calling her one, he feels like he would be disrespecting her, even though that's what she wants. And even though she doesn't consider it to be disrespectful to her.

So the issue is that he doesn't feel like he can be in a relationship with someone that he doesn't respect. So he doesn't want to go down the path of following her desires. So I wanted to ask for your take on this. You know, here is a woman who feels empowered to ask for what she wants.

but her partner seems to have a bit of this Madonna-whore complex going on. So how do we navigate something like this? You know, it feels like women are kind of in a tough position here, right? On the one hand, many of them are reluctant to embrace their inner slut, if you will, because they don't want to be judged for those desires, and so they simply suppress them. But on the other hand, if they express those desires, they often are judged, and then they're still not getting their desires met. So, you know, what do we do here?

Well, we do here. We accept that we're in the middle of a rapid cultural change, which is going to be different for everybody at any time and is probably going to take a couple of generations to make much difference. But yes, I think accepting that we're all coming from different places is the first. How about they read Slutterm? I think if both of them read Slutterm, they might have a greater conversation. But actually, what a great conversation that they are having, like because they're not just talking about sex, are they?

They're talking about the whole, what I think about women, what I think about being a woman. There are really big questions for relationships to be dealing with. So what a fantastic situation to learn from.

I don't know. I think I'd need to know more about what I would actually recommend for the couple beyond more reading and learning and talking to people. They might want to talk to sex workers without engaging one. You can engage a sex worker without having sex. There are many things that they could do. And I think I'd have to know how they felt about each thing before I recommended them either.

It's one of these situations that I think actually comes up quite a lot, that men, heterosexual men, often have this complicated relationship with their partner's sexuality, where they feel like they can only engage in certain activities with them because their wife or their girlfriend needs to be, quote unquote, sexually pure. And if she engages in other activities... Yeah, straight out of Victoria in England. Right.

Right. You know, and it is this Victorian idea, but it's still very much with us today. You know, I remember distinctly there was this episode of the TV show The Sopranos where Tony was talking about how he doesn't want his wife to perform oral sex on him because he considers that to be disrespectful. So he only does that with sex workers on the side instead, right? Yeah.

But, you know, he's disrespecting his wife by committing infidelity. Right. But, you know, that's a whole other conversation. But it's an example of how this idea is out there that, you know, a lot of guys do have this Madonna whore complex. And I guess the question I really want to ask is how do we kind of move past that? What do we do when that is one of the big stumbling blocks to having gender equality in the bedroom?

I see where you're coming from now with the Madonna Hall complex affecting everyone in such a negative way. It's something that I've had a lot of feedback from men with Slutton. Something that I've found really gratifying is that how many men have been grateful to read a book about celebrating women's sexuality in a way that's compassionate toward men? Because I think a lot of men feel like they're not good unless they

have a good wife, they have to treat their wife in that way to make her good. So they're suffering from it in the same way that women are, but they're sort of inflicting it rather than just living it in their own bodies. But men need the same deconditioning process that women need to go through. And

I think it's something that queer folk have done really well because queer folk have really adopted the slut word in a way that gives me great hope and that helped me, gave me permission too to call myself a slut, so seeing other people doing it. And I think because queer people have...

already interrogated their own sexuality to find out who they are and what they are and what they like. And that's something that a lot of hetero folk who are still suffering from this Madonna-whore dichotomy have not yet had to do. They've not had a challenge to their sexual identity that has caused them to have to do that work. And so perhaps this couple that are suffering this problem or other couples who want

men want to treat their women like princesses on pedestals because it makes them feel good. That kind of thinking is, you know, the gender inequality that doesn't help anyone, but they don't ever really need to interrogate it because they have good enough lives. They, especially men with sexual privileges that women don't have, they just don't need to do the work. So

But I think that culture is changing to the point where sex is in your face a lot more, thanks to the wellness industry and others like us doing our work. Because sex is everywhere now, I think people are interrogating these narratives more and I think people are thinking about it. So these challenges to relationships are perfect opportunities to do some work on that.

Yeah, and I think you're right that a lot of the changes in our culture are getting more people to think more critically about their own sexuality in various ways, for better or for worse. Based on the types of emails that I get from people and the questions people are asking, it is very clear that things that are happening in the broader culture are seeping into their consciousness and changing the way that they're thinking about sex. And sometimes it's creating...

and stirring up certain anxieties that they didn't know were there before. Like, for example, with the rise of the Me Too movement, I started getting a bunch of questions from women who said, "Well, I have these desires for consensual non-consent,

And I feel like if I were to indulge them or enjoy them, that somehow that makes me a bad feminist because, you know, I support women who are survivors of sexual assault and I'm staunchly against sexual assault, but I'm turned on by this idea of consensual non-consent. Does that make me a bad person? You know, so people are grappling with and having these very complex and complicated conversations about, you know, the nature of desire and what they mean in our current political environment. And so, you know,

It's an interesting time to live in as people are kind of like navigating their sexuality.

Yeah. And, you know, the rape fantasy has been around forever. You know, The Secret Garden was written in the 60s and women were shocked to find out how many other women fantasize about rape. And I really think that that is a consequence of the Madonna-whore dichotomy because no one wants to be a slut, but you want to have as much fun as a slut. So if it was forced upon you, you'd have to have that much fun. So my fault.

So yeah, rape fantasies are so common because women don't want to own their choices because they don't want to be sluts, but they still want to have the lifestyle. Yeah. So I think the bigger conversation we're having here is one of sexual empowerment. And so I'm curious for your take on what sexual empowerment really means or looks like. So, you know, how do you define sexual empowerment? What does it mean to be empowered?

Yeah, that's such a great question because a lot of people think that if you say slut or sexual empowerment, which I think is the same thing, if you say that, then it must be somehow dirty. People think about genitals all the time and they think about sex, which is really weird because I'm dealing with genitals all the time and I rarely think about them. I think about the people I'm having sex with rather than their genitals. But I think sexual empowerment is about

It's embodied. So it's a feeling that's so much stronger than other kinds of feelings because it's a knowing your body tells you. If you can listen to your body, which we need to do, and we need to do it better to be living healthier lives. If you can listen to your body and your body tells you that sex is a very good thing, then to be able to own that gives you a congruence in your mind and your body. And I think that is part of what gives us the confidence because we feel so good about it.

Yeah, I think sexual empowerment is one of those terms that, again, you know, different people are going to define in different ways. And I think, too, that sometimes the things that we interpret as sexual empowerment in other people

actually often aren't empowering. Yeah, it's not about how much sex you have or how you have sex or how many people you have sex with. It is about feeling good about yourself in a sexual way, that knowing that you're a sexual being. You don't even have to have sex. You could be asexual and still feel very sexually empowered because that's your choice and that's what you want with your body. Yeah, so sexual empowerment, yeah, you're right, you know, can look like different things for different people. But I think, you know, to me, it's about...

feeling confident in your own skin in some way and learning how to unburden yourself of the sexual shame that holds you back from getting what you want so that you can actually own your desires and feel like you can confidently communicate about them with others. And, you know, sexual empowerment, I think, is something that

everybody, regardless of gender and sexuality, struggles with. You know, some people seem to have it figured out a little bit more than others. But, you know, I think there's often an assumption that men are more sexually empowered than women because they're having more orgasms than women. But that doesn't mean that they've got their shit figured out sexually, right? Or that they're getting what they want.

Yeah, it's quite unfair to expect men to know. Like women expect men to know how to please them. That's quite unfair. Everyone's different. Yes, and I think there are a lot of unfair expectations that we all put on one another in the bedroom because we have all of this sexual shame. We haven't normalized how to talk about sex. And of course, sex education is terrible. So certainly, we certainly have our work cut out for us here. Yeah, we do. Yeah.

And what wonderful work. It's such a pleasure to be talking about pleasure. So one more question for you. Do you have any tips on how people can become more sexually empowered or, you know, things that you might suggest that they try, whether that's, you know, reading or practical exercises or whatever? How do we become and feel more empowered?

I think you've got to practice. I think the sexual experience should be considered a very good thing for personal development. Practicing, reading, watching things. I think there is so much information about sex now in media that it's really easy to come across.

I think watching porn is good too as long as you really expand your search terms so that you're looking at a really broad range of porn. You don't want to get into a position where you're seeing only one kind of porn all the time and it gets more and more narrow and the algorithm drives you in that way. So for any sort of, whether you consider it porn or other sex education material,

or sex education material that are designed to be sex education rather than entertainment. Watching all that sort of thing, just keep it really broad. Go as wide as possible in your searches and your quest for information so that you can then decide what's right for you. There are also a lot of adult educational workshops and communities. There's a lot of stuff going on with adult consent education and other things in the world, but you've got to really search for it. You've got to start looking. So that

I think having the confidence to start looking for those things, the internet's been fantastic for us to be able to grow and find out things that we wouldn't be able to find out before and in privacy relative. So yeah, just do your research and practice.

I think you're right that it starts with exploring your own sexuality and figuring out what your turn-ons are and what your yeses and nos and babies are when it comes to sex. So it's really having that understanding of your own sexuality because you can't communicate about what you want or like or enjoy if you don't know what it is that you want or like or enjoy, right? So self-exploration is the first step and then, you know, building up those sexual communication skills, getting more comfortable with it.

But that's something that I think is important for people to recognize. It's going to take some time. You know, you don't become sexually empowered overnight. You know, this is a journey that might take months, maybe years. For some people, it actually takes decades. So, you know, sexual empowerment is a different journey for everybody, but it's never too late to start down on that path. So right. Yes. Last long learners we are.

Yes. Well, thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Hilary. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work and to get a copy of your new book? Yes, please. My website is drhilarycoldwell.com.

Google it. It'll come up. I'm on Insta. That is Dr. Hilary Caldwell and my book Slutdom, but it's probably not in US stores, but you can buy it from Australia and have it shipped over. Thank you very much for talking to me today, Justin. I really enjoyed learning from you as well. And I hope that some people listening have gotten some takeaways from this that will help them in their journeys of lifelong learning about sex. Well, thank you again for this conversation. I really appreciate having you here.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.