Shownotes Transcript
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Welcome, legendary listeners. Thanks for tuning in to From the Vault, a second look at some of our classic episodes. Look for a new episode every week. Now, can you go back and listen on your own at OurNewEnglandLegends.com? You bet.
But you won't get the added bonus of an After the Legends segment featuring new commentary about that episode from your old pals Jeff and Ray. So let's open up the New England Legends Vault and revisit another legendary episode. Hey, welcome to the Vault, kids. Good to have you here in the Vault. We're going to go on the dark side today where the devil made me do it. First aired July 8th, 2021. Enjoy. Enjoy.
Well, what brings us to church today, Jeff? I'm guessing we're long overdue for confession. We're long overdue, Ray. No question. But no, there's no time for us to squeeze in a confession today. The penance alone would take weeks, I think. All right, so we're at St. Joseph's Catholic Church in the center of Brookfield, Connecticut. It's a large church. It's pretty with a tall steeple and fancy windows. It is pretty and peaceful. But some scary things have happened here. Like what?
Way back in 1980, a young boy went through an exorcism. That does sound scary. But that's not the half of it. A few months later, a man connected to that young boy would end up killing another man. And when the case went to trial, he made national news by claiming he was possessed and that the devil made him do it.
I'm Jeff Belanger, and welcome to episode 203 of the New England Legends podcast. If you give us about 10 minutes, we'll give you something strange to talk about today. And I'm Ray Ogier. I love that episode 203 is in Connecticut. Oh, I get it, right? 203 is the area code for half of Connecticut. That's right.
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right now. Okay, Ray, I know both of us were raised Catholic. That's true. Catholics believe in God and the devil, in saints and sinners, in purgatory, and of course, in angels and demons. There's kind of a whole spectrum there. Absolutely. And we were taught from a young age that sometimes things can go very badly for us, that sometimes a demon can come into our world and take possession. And the only cure is
is an exorcism by a priest. Well, we all saw that movie, The Exorcist. Classic. I mean, that movie scared the hell out of me. Yeah. It's the story of a young girl named Reagan who became possessed and who went on to attack the priest trying to help her. Or I guess I should say the demon inside Reagan attacked the priest. It was damn scary. Absolutely. Now, The Exorcist movie came out in 1974 and became a horror movie phenomenon. That
That movie remained on everyone's mind for years to come. And that movie still holds up today. I agree. Now, this story we're chasing this week hits pretty close to home for me because I grew up in Newtown, Connecticut, the next town over from Brookfield. In fact...
That's the town where all of this got started. And Newtown is the town next to Monroe, Connecticut, which is where famed paranormal investigators Ed and Lorraine Warren lived. Oh, wait a minute. Hold on. This is all starting to sound a little bit familiar. The Warrens, The Devil Made Me Do It. This sounds like the new Conjuring 3 movie. And you're right. This week, we're going to explore the real story behind the movie. So let's head a few miles south to Newtown and dive into the darkness. ♪
It's July 1st, 1980, and we're standing in front of a small house with an attached apartment here in Newtown, Connecticut. The yard is a little overgrown, and the whole place could use a little TLC. But it's not bad for a young couple trying to start their lives together. Arriving today at the house in Newtown is just such a young couple. But it's more complicated than just two people moving into a house. First, there's Debbie Glatzel. She's 26 years old, from nearby Brookfield. And she's got her 7-year-old son with her.
There's Debbie's boyfriend, 18-year-old Arnie Johnson. And for those of you doing the math right now in your head, Debbie's child is from a previous relationship. Debbie had been living in an apartment in Bridgeport, Connecticut with her son and with a roommate who was raising three young girls on her own. Money is tight, but if they pull what they have, they can just cover living in this house, which is a nicer place to raise young kids. Plus, Arnie is a tree surgeon and landscaper, so he'll find a lot more work in this rural part of the state compared to the city of Bridgeport.
The plan is for Arnie, Debbie, and Debbie's son to live in the main house, and Debbie's roommate and her three kids will live in the attached apartment. At least that's the plan. Debbie's mom and her younger brothers have just arrived from Brookfield to help with the move-in. But there's already problems. First, there's still furniture and even a bed from the former tenant that haven't been moved out yet. Now, while that's frustrating, that's not the only problem. The attached apartment that Debbie's roommate is going to move into? No.
There's a person living there right now. It's the landlord's daughter who has no intention of moving out just yet. Still, Debbie and Arnie have faith that the landlord is going to arrive and they'll get everything worked out. So they head inside.
Once inside, though, Debbie's mother is uncomfortable. Something seems off about this place. She can't quite put her finger on it. Still, the move must go on. Debbie sends her youngest brother, 11-year-old David, back to the master bedroom to carry in a box and sweep up the room.
But just after David enters the bedroom, the door slams and David is shoved down on the bed by an unseen force. David stands up to see a ghostly figure standing before him. It's an old man who looks angry. The ghost warns David to go home and take down his crucifixes and religious medals. David flees the bedroom, runs out of the house, and plops himself down under a tree in the front yard. He refuses to go back inside.
Inside the house, David's two older brothers also have a strange encounter in that bedroom. The door slams on them and now they're locked inside. They pound on the door. Finally, it opens.
Because Arnie and Debbie can't fully move into the new house yet, they spend the night at Debbie's parents' house in Brookfield. It's just a few miles away. Now that evening, everyone is tired from the move. However, Debbie's younger brothers are spooked. And none more than David. The three brothers talk about the strange things they experience inside the new town house. But young David speaks up. He walks into the kitchen and tells the adults about the ghost.
And not only that, but David says he can see the old man's ghost right now. He's coming this way from the house in Newtown. It's July 3rd, and Arnie and Debbie are back at the Newtown house. The former tenant has arrived to get the last of her things, and when Debbie presses her, the woman admits, yeah, the master bedroom seems to have a ghost.
But that's all she'll say. Meanwhile, down in the basement, Arnie discovers there's a strange room built out of plywood. It's locked. Arnie can't get inside, but it makes him uncomfortable. As he's heading up the basement stairs, something unseen taps him on the shoulder. The couple are spooked, and Debbie's roommate still can't move in because the attached apartment is still occupied.
So they demand to get their deposit back from the landlord. It's decided. They'll have to move in with the Glatzels, at least for now. It's July 5th. Back at the Glatzel house in Brookfield, and something is wrong with David. He's being tormented by this entity that's now in his house.
David doesn't call him the old man anymore either. Now he refers to him as the beast. The Glatzels are a religious family, devout Roman Catholics. They have crucifixes hanging on the walls, St. Michael prayers printed on cards, and they attend St. Joseph's Parish in town regularly. When David moves from spooked to tormented, they reach out to their priests, who are quick to come to the house.
The priest says a blessing. He sprinkles holy water and lights religious candles.
The family finds some peace, but not for very long. The blessing seemed to have infuriated the entity tormenting David. The young boy is getting scratched and hit by something no one else can see. And that's when the Glatzel's priest suggests they reach out to two local paranormal investigators who specialize in this kind of thing. A couple from Monroe, Connecticut named Ed and Lorraine Warren.
In this area, everyone has at least heard of Ed and Lorraine Warren and what they do. So a phone call is made. Given Brookfield is just two towns over from Monroe, Ed and Lorraine hop in the car and make their way over to the Glatzel's house in Brookfield. They're bringing with them a medical doctor to evaluate David. Now, on the way up to the door, the doctor stumbles on the sidewalk. No big deal. Just a stumble. He's fine. So they knock on the door.
and head inside. Ed Warren begins to interview David and his family. He learns that David is not prone to lying, that he's an honest kid, yet something is very, very wrong. That's when David makes a comment about how the doctor should watch his step walking up to the house. And now Ed Warren perks up. He knows there's no way David could have seen that happen.
Ed suspects he might be dealing with something sinister. Now from here, things only get worse. And quickly. David is getting attacked by a dark force. He feels like he's being stabbed. He's speaking languages he doesn't know. He's growling and according to the family, he's even levitating.
Ed Warren explains that there's four stages of demonic possession. There's encroachment or permission where the entity gains access. There's infestation where the entity is moving into the living space of the target person.
There's oppression, where the victim is getting tormented. And finally, diabolical possession, where the entity now has taken over the victim. According to Ed, this process can take months or even years. But with young David, it's happening in the span of just a few weeks. He's never seen anything take over this fast.
The Glatzel family are now at their wit's end. They're desperate for help, and the Warrens are doing everything they can to help David get an exorcism. Getting an exorcism in the Catholic Church isn't easy. There's an investigation, a medical and psychological evaluation. Then it has to be approved by the diocese, the archdiocese, and all the way up to the Vatican.
Still, the priests at St. Joseph Parish are doing all they can. But David is in a bad way. At one point, he pulls a knife on his brother. Another time, he's writhing around on the floor screaming. And that's when Arnie Johnson jumps on top of him, places the cross he's wearing around his neck onto David's forehead, and tells the entity, pick on someone who can fight back. Fight me instead. Lorraine Warren is shocked.
While she understands Arnie's being selfless and trying to help, it's a dangerous thing to say to a demon. It's September, and 11-year-old David Glatzel undergoes a series of exorcisms at St. Joseph's. Though the full rite of exorcism hasn't been authorized, the minor rite has been.
The first two exorcisms are violent affairs for David. The family is concerned it will literally hurt or kill him, so the priests stop short. But finally, the third exorcism takes place at the Nativity of the Virgin Mary. Lorraine has a good feeling about this one, and it turns out she's right. After the third exorcism, David finds peace, and life slowly gets back to normal for everyone.
Within the next couple of months, Debbie Glatzel finds work as a dog groomer in Brookfield. The job even includes an apartment for she and Arnie and her son. So the couple are now out on their own and Arnie finds work too. Things are really looking up. It's February 16th, 1981. Arnie woke up this morning not feeling well. This isn't like him. He never misses work, but today he calls in sick.
He sleeps in, and by late morning, he's feeling better. So he heads to the dog groomer's office to say hello to Debbie. It's a slow day at the dog groomer's office, so Debbie's boss and their landlord, Alan Bono, suggest that the three of them go out for lunch. Alan's a worldly man. He lived in Australia for several years, and he likes to drink. One glass of wine at lunch turns to two, and so on. And by the time they get back to the office, Alan is ready to continue his day drinking into the night.
By closing time, Alan suggests they order a pizza and keep drinking upstairs. Debbie and Arnie have seen how drunk Alan can get, but still the couple are game to hang out for a bit in Alan's apartment. However, it doesn't take long for Alan to get pretty intoxicated and Arnie isn't far behind him. Debbie and Arnie are ready to leave, but Alan wants them to stay. Tempers rise. Alan grabs Debbie's arm and Arnie's had enough. He pulls his girlfriend out into the hall, but Alan follows the couple.
Debbie would later recall in that moment, everything changed in Arnie. His face, his eyes, it's like a switch flipped. Arnie and Alan collide. There's a struggle. And then, Alan slumps over on the ground. And Debbie sees a knife lying nearby and claims the knife is glowing. Arnie walks off in a daze. The ambulance brings Alan Bono to Danbury Hospital, where he dies from multiple stab wounds a few hours later.
Meanwhile, Arne Johnson is found by police two hours after the fight, wandering by a roadside.
Arnie goes peacefully. He's confused. He doesn't remember anything. Now, for the Brookfield police, this case looks open and shut. Two guys drinking all day, there's an argument, one of them has a knife, and now a man is dead. It seems pretty simple. And by the way, this would be the first murder in the history of the town, a town established in 1788. This case does seem open and shut, until Ed and Lorraine Warren get involved.
Ed and Lorraine Warren believe Arnie shouldn't be held accountable for the murder of Alan Bono because he was possessed by the same demon who possessed Debbie's brother, David. The Warrens bring their evidence to attorney Marty Manella. They play the frightening audio tapes, show him the photos of the scratches and attacks. And Manella is suddenly on board with a devil made me do it defense. And then the media circus begins.
International news comes in to cover the story. A story, by the way, that no one would care about beyond the local paper under normal circumstances. But these aren't normal circumstances. Many think the idea is ludicrous. But then people start talking about our legal system. In court, when they swear you in, you place your hand on the Bible and swear to tell the truth, so help you God. So the court believes in God, but not the devil?
As the circus builds and the court of public opinion weighs in, Ed and Lorraine Warren are getting ready to put their life's work on the stand. They're ready to bring up priests, demonologists, and religious scholars. They have photos, videos, audio clips to share. They're ready for their big moment to prove evil and demons exist in a court of law. It's March 19th, 1981, when Judge Robert Callahan of Danbury Court calls the session to order.
But before any opening statements can be made, Judge Callahan makes an announcement. What's the announcement? That demons and devils are not relevant to this case. They may exist, but they cannot be used as a defense. With only drunken self-defense as a backup plan, attorney Marty Manella has to switch gears. Ultimately, Arne Johnson is convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 10 years in jail. He'll only serve five with good behavior. And that brings us back to today.
Okay, there is so much to unpack here, right? Without this devil-made-me-do-it defense, this is just another manslaughter case that no one would talk about after a few months, and really only within that community. And now that that movie is out, plus the new documentary on Discovery+, which you're a big part of, Jeff. Yeah, I filmed an interview for that this past winter. And now we're all talking about this case. It's gone pop culture. This case brings up some big questions. Let's talk about it.
Let's pretend Judge Callahan had allowed this defense. For one, I imagine every person accused of murder across the nation would try the same defense. There's that. But here's the next question. Do you believe in evil? The devil? You only need to look at the news headlines to know there's evil in the world. Sure. But there's good, too.
And have you ever felt rage, like something was taking you over? Of course. I've driven in rush hour traffic and been cut off. Right. You grip the steering wheel, you grit your teeth, you scream at the driver. But you don't kill him. No, no, I don't. The rage passes. So if we can get possessed by a demon, does that mean we don't have free will? Which, of course, is a major foundation of most world religions. Now, those who believe in demonic possession would tell you that you relinquish your free will when you invite a demon in.
Which means whether the devil made you do it or not, you're still responsible for relinquishing that control. I think the judge made the right call on this one. I agree. Still, maybe it's the Catholic boy in me, but the thought of demonic possession is the most frightening subject we've covered. Maybe we should head back inside St. Joseph's and find a priest. Just in case.
Just in case is right. It's all fun and games until someone is possessed by a demon. Hey, a big thanks to everyone who saw the Shock Docs Devil Made Me Do It documentary I was on. That's the fourth Shock Doc I've been part of for Discovery+. Nice. And I just filmed my fifth. We're starting something new this week. Jeff and I just don't make podcasts. We love listening to them as well. So we wanted to highlight some of the podcasts we're checking out. A podcast you should check out is Ghost Magnet with Bridget Marquardt. You might remember Bridget from the Girls Next Door show at the Playboy Mansion on the E! Channel.
And if you love the paranormal and ghost investigating, she has some great guests who discuss the topic. And picking Bridget's podcast first has nothing to do with the fact that you had dinner with Bridget and her producers while you were in L.A. last week, Jim. No. No, seriously, though. Check it out. We'd like to thank all of our Patreon patrons for all their support. And our theme music is by John Judd. Until next time, remember, the bizarre is closer than you think. We'll break it down right after a word from our sponsor.
This was turned into a movie, one of the Conjuring movies. Right. And we addressed some of this, but whenever a story gets made into a movie, the waters get muddy. Exactly. Right? So even if you knew a lot about this case, maybe you read about it, Ed Lorraine's book years ago, or you read the newspaper coverage, which I did. And then there was a documentary about it that I was part of, The Shock Docs. So I did tons of research.
So what happens is, I was thinking about this, there are people who tend to remember everything they read. That's how they absorb information. Some people, like me, remember stuff I hear. I'm a visual guy myself. I have a very good retention for when people tell me stuff. Some people are visual, like you. You watch something, you remember seeing it, you remember experiencing it. I'd rather watch a documentary than read the book. Sure, fine. It's how I process things. Lots of people are just like you. And so when you see a movie...
where you're hearing it, you're hearing the words and you've got the visual and the actors are almost looking at you, right? Like you're in the room with them. That's a good movie where you feel like, oh, I'm in the room with them. You're absorbing information. Even if you know the facts in your head, you're like, oh, remember when like this happened? And you're remembering the movie, not the facts. And the fact that it says based on a true story at the beginning of a movie. They've already got you. And it took me a long time. Oh,
up until recently to understand that it's based on an idea or a story that does not mean that it's, it's fact-based. No, they just found a story and like, that's interesting. Now let's make something really cool around that. Sure. Like the, the, the house, right. The, the house in the movie was nothing like, nothing like the original. Yeah.
And it was a, but people take it as fact. Right. Unfortunately. So. So I guess what I'm saying is read, listen, and watch. Well, yeah. And then figure out what's in the middle there. But we're lazy. We are. Yeah. We don't have time to. I saw a 30 second Tik Tok.
made completely with AI that shows famous people doing things that I either liked or didn't like and took it as fact because it already reinforced what I already believe. Yeah. And we don't understand AI just yet. And then I share it. Yeah. And then I'm like, look at this. And then people who trust me go, must be true because Jeff shared it. Yeah. Look at Harrison Ford. He's kicking a dog in this video. You're like, he would never do that. Yeah. No, for sure. And so the waters get muddy for sure.
Because this medium is so powerful and there's music and that's pulling you in and there's tension because they're good storytellers. That's what they're doing. Yeah.
So that's a bummer. So people start to think like this is a documentary. Of course, it's not. However, the real case was pretty wild, especially for two Catholic boys like us, right? Where did you do CCD? Did you go through that thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Catholic Christian doctrine, right? So we went through it. And I had nuns teach some of those, the whole thing.
And I remember being so engrossed when we talked about like possession and stuff. They didn't want to talk about it too much. I don't remember talking about that. Why? I kept asking questions. This could be my fault. I'm just saying this could be partially me where I was just like, so, so like there's, there's devils and demons. Oh yeah, of course there has to be like, if you're selling it, you got to sell it all the way. Right.
So yeah, devils and demons, sure. Okay. And they could possess you? Like they could get inside and like the exorcist movie, you know, whatever? Yes. And then priests can save you. They can perform an exorcism. If it gets to that, it's rare. It's very extreme. Like don't worry about it, but you know, say your prayers and God will protect you, the whole thing. Like that was the thing.
And I remember just being like, boy, that's really frightening because you can't reason with a demon. You can't, you can't like, you can't even understand its motivation. Can't change their ways. Right. Like a person, like if you're, if you're in a hostage situation, right. You could talk to the person with the gun and say, all right, let's, let's go through this. What do you, what do you need? Like, how can we calm you down? And like this, there's a way, right.
with a demon. Yeah. They have one job. Right. To make life miserable for the people around them. Right. And that's really scary that I'm just an agent of chaos and destruction and meanness and awful. And so when, when you watch stuff like this, you're like, first of all, if you have that in your upbringing, it reinforces like, no, this is one of those rare cases. Mm-hmm.
And it's the only murder in Brookfield history. Like that's what town can go centuries, any town, right? Even if it's like 3000 people, like centuries, nobody like lost their mind and shot somebody. Right. The first murder in that town's history and tied to a demonic possession case.
That's definitely interesting, worth noting. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And you got a side on the demons and the priests on that one. Right. Like, this has never happened before. Right. Something is askew with this town and this story. Now, we did talk— It's a higher power. We did talk about this in the episode, but the whole notion that the judge said, we're not going to hear about demons— Right, right, right. —as far as the defense. Yeah.
You couldn't. But my concern is that, is someone gonna try that again? And we'll-- - Oh, and use that defense? - And say like, hey look, if we swear on the Bible that we believe in God, is someone gonna reprise this in these times that are less enlightened than they were in the '80s? Imagine that. - Yeah. - Right? So where someone's religious ideals suddenly become doctrine, right? Where someone can say, we have to accept the possibility that there is a satanic force and that it could possess people.
And the second you crack that door, our legal system, I think, falls to pieces. Yeah, I could see that. Because even if this is true, even if a demon took your body over and you killed someone, you're responsible for letting the demon in. Right. Right? You did the murder. You don't get off because you say, well, I was in a troubled state and this demon took possession of my body and I killed somebody. Right. Because everybody would say that. Right.
And I'm sure it's been done many times already. I'm sure it's been tried. This one got a lot of attention because it made international news. A case that was open and shut and, you know, just a small town thing that would have only been covered really around the greater Brookfield area turned into international news because of Ed and Lorraine Warren. Yeah. Who loved the spotlight. Right. Let's be honest. They did. I mean, I've witnessed it, you know. So.
So they handled these stories locally, but probably put out some press releases. Oh, absolutely. And suddenly, yeah, because I mean, think about where you live. A local murder in town would be, oh my gosh, it'd be big news. Sure. It would get lots of coverage locally. It would get coverage maybe even nationally for a second. Like, oh, this...
tragic thing happened it would definitely regionally statewide yeah the boston stations would cover it for like a day be like oh but that's the last you'd hear of it and then locally you'd hear about the case as it goes through the court system what the punishment was and then it's put to bed and then it's over um international news wouldn't be coming to cover it probably unless there's a really weird wrinkle in it like or if it's connected somehow nationally or internationally yeah right like devil made me do it the devil has always been a scapegoat and you
You know, where you could say like, oh, I didn't want that extra cookie. The devil literally tempted me to eat that extra cookie. And now, you know, I have to work out more. Well, look, from the start of time, depending on what you believe in, the apple. Right. You know? Yeah. He made Adam eat the apple. Right. Right, right, right. And then it all went downhill from there. Yeah, the serpent. The serpent, yeah. But by the way, it was never called the devil. We just assume. You think we created that? So snakes are the devil? Well, it wasn't literally the...
The devil? The punishment was God condemned the serpent to forever crawl on its belly. Yeah. Right? Because of what you did. Right. And universally, people generally don't like snakes. I know people have them as pets. I don't like them either, but I know people have them as pets and say, I love mine. He's cuddly. I get it. So those people are satanic is what you're saying? Obviously. Obviously.
It's crystal clear. If you own a snake, you're evil. No, but I don't want to cuddle with your snake. No, no, no. I'm glad you have your snake and Mr. Fluffkins is very happy for you. You know, it's great. But that's part of it, right? So we've always... My concern is that
When we start to shirk our own personal responsibility and blame it on something else, like, oh, the devil made me do it, instead of taking accountability, saying, no, I did it. Whatever force that is, is within me. And someone else would take a deep breath and walk away. You didn't. And you murdered somebody. In a moment of passion, you stabbed somebody, you killed them. And you need to be held accountable for that.
You don't get to say like, well, you know, obviously. Well, you can't prove it. So that's the biggest issue. Exactly. Yeah. But like people get in arguments every day and they don't kill somebody. Right, right. You know, that's the thing. They can take a breath and walk away. And while I do believe in possession and demons and... Sure. Or I don't want to say demons, but just other forces, other worldly forces that we can't explain. Yeah. I do think that courts are doing a great job with not allowing that. Yeah.
Well, it's happening. Like you said, it would be a crazy world. Be Salem, 1692. Yeah. That's what would be happening. Someone would be like, hey, we could get rid of all of our political opponents just by calling you evil. Right. Or you're a witch or you're possessed by the devil, right? We could...
Because it's on you to disprove it. Right. Instead of on me to prove it. Yeah. Like, well, clearly, look at the way you're acting. Right. Right? I'm not possessed by the devil. Oh, that's just what someone who's possessed by the devil would say. Yeah. And it's not always head turning and split pee shooting out of your mouth. It could just be somebody acting a certain way in an evil kind of manner. My concern, too, is when, you know, we don't call people witches anymore because that's, it's just not right. Yeah. It's a joke. It doesn't hold any weight. Right.
But now we see politicians calling other groups and people and individuals evil. Evil, yeah. And once you call someone evil, they're less than you, and you've demeaned them, and there's nothing you can do with evil but attack it, get it out, destroy it. It's less than you. It's bad. It's got to go. So the term evil is—
To call someone evil is, ironically, one of the most evil things you could do. Right? So you might be the possessed evil one. I'm dehumanizing you. I'm making you less than us. And so now we're free to attack you because we slapped this label on you. And lots of people do it on both sides of the political aisle. And it's also like, it's not a sound argument. It's not like...
Ray, your policies are wrong because it'll increase inflation. It'll do this to the economy. It'll do A, B, C, and D. That's a sound argument. Me going, you're evil. Right? It's like, oh, you don't really have a good. You have nothing else to contribute. Yeah. There's no counter argument to this. It's a mic drop. Right. It's just like, you're evil. Boom. You're evil. It's like, oh, good one. And then it gets out there on social media. Now everyone is saying, oh, he's evil. Right. How do you know? Because that's what they're saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. How do we take a breath, everybody? So just like Arne Johnson, Arne Johnson didn't take a breath, right? He just reacted. And he was drunk and he was in an argument and all that other stuff.
So booze is the devil. That's what it is. No one, no one held him down and poured it down his throat. It's true. We've all been guilty of that one. It's true. Like, Ooh, haven't killed anybody because of it. No, not yet. Yeah. Days young. It's still morning here as we're recording this, but, um, but no, but it's one of those powerful stories that,
That touches on religious belief. It touches on like your worst possible nightmare. And someone died. Like someone did die in this equation. And then it gets made into a movie. And we still talk about it all these years later.