Developing Ideas w/ Sally-Anne Ashley [277]
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Hi and welcome to Art Juice. This is honest, generous and humorous conversations to feed your creative soul and get you thinking with me, Louise Fletcher. And today Alice is taking a break and I'm joined by my special guest, Sally-Ann Ashley, who's been on the podcast before. Hi, Sally-Ann. Hello, hello. Lovely to be here. Thank you for having me back.

So Sally-Anne is a painter. She's a teacher. She teaches online and in person. Do you teach in person or is it all online at the moment? Mostly online at the moment, yeah. And we've had quite a few conversations because you teach a course and I'm currently teaching a course around the topic we want to talk about today. So I thought Sally-Anne would be the perfect guest for this, which is I wanted to talk about...

developing our ideas and nurturing ideas and kind of having something that our art is about or is

inquiring into or is, you know, has a focus. And I'm the reason it came up Sallyanne is I'm currently teaching this course, which isn't open or anything, it's in process. And one of the things and what we're doing is I'm teaching everyone how to have a focus on

And then all sorts of different exercises and ways you can practice painting around that focus to find your way to something that you're interested in. And it's interesting how much of a challenge it is for so many people to even find a focus narrowing on what they're interested in.

Once they get something, it's easy to follow the assignments I'm giving them, but it's like the very idea of a focus or a reason for painting is something that they've never considered. And so I guess my first question to you is, because I know that you always have something that you are looking into or painting about or exploring. Have you always worked that way or is that something you discovered along the way?

No, I haven't always worked like that at all. And actually, I came to working like that after feeling like stuck in my work and probably needing just a little rest.

not saying necessarily like big themes or anything but just something to guide my focus on you know so um yeah I think because I've always worked intuitively through the years and that's all I knew you know just pitch up at my surface and paint and what comes comes which was it kept me going for for years I really enjoyed working like that but there did come a point where I just thought I've

I kind of needed a bit more direction, a bit more kind of inner drive, I guess. And it was like, how am I going to get that? You know, how am I... Because I hear what you've just said about members on your course. Like, how do you even find a focus? Where do you start with that? Because I think naturally as creatives, our possibilities are limitless. You know, we've got the whole world of inspiration. So it's firstly like, yeah, how do you even...

narrow this down. When you say, just to go back a second, when you say, you know, before you were working without that, what was it that, what was the problem that made you feel like, okay, I need to change the way I'm working? Was it that feeling of there's too many possibilities or I'm getting lost? I think it was a feeling of

I think it was a feeling of being lost. Like every painting I'd start, I'd be starting over again with like a blank slate. And although that sounds very freeing, I think the amount of possibilities was quite overwhelming.

So I remember thinking, I'd just like a thread. I would just like to, you know, finish one painting and then that kind of lead into, oh, this is the basis of the next painting. And, you know, because if you don't have that,

I'm coming in my studio every day and it's like, so what's on the agenda for today then? You know, and it's like so wide open. And I think just by me thinking, yeah, I guess I just thought that I'd like a thread so I can continue.

it's the building momentum funnily enough the name of your course but building that momentum from one thing leading to another thing leading to another thing instead of having these stops in between where it's like i've finished that now it's starting from zero you know like i was uh yeah building i guess necessarily

So, and this wasn't meant to be an interview, so I'm sorry I'm grilling you, but now I'm just interested. So when you decided, okay, now this isn't working for me, because I think it was a bit the same for me. I had picked a focus pretty early on in starting painting, which was that I knew I was interested in the landscape around my home in North Yorkshire and the ruggedness of it and the atmosphere and the feeling of it. So I had that.

But it didn't feel like it was deep enough. But if I went outside that, then like you said, there were just so many possibilities. If I went, okay, well, if I'm not going to do abstract landscape painting, if that's what we want to call it,

then what because I could do faces I could do this I could do that I could do realistic I could do abstract I could do brightly colored I could do neutrals I could do intuitive painting I could start with a plant there's just so many possibilities and by the time you sat there and thought of all that you're so exhausted that we often just don't even get started yeah yeah it's like

Oh yeah, just to pull down. I think, I mean, how did you move forward with that? So really it was a process that I'm now put into this program, which is using a journal. It's my studio journal. So I never really got into sketchbooks in the way I'd seen other people get into them. And I didn't really know how to use one for myself.

But then it just kind of evolved that I was getting so lost. I started to ask myself questions. I did a lot of mind maps, which is something I knew from my business life. You always did mind maps for creative marketing, et cetera. And so I would do that there. So I brought that in, journaled and was asking myself a lot of questions about what I'm really interested in.

I think the mind mapping was probably more helpful than the journals because it brings together... So if you don't know anybody, I'm sure everyone knows what mind mapping is, but if you don't, you get a big sheet of paper. You can do it online, I'm sure, as well. But I use a big sheet of paper. And you start just writing things down and then associating like a spider's web. A branch comes off a word and you associate everything you can think of with that word together.

And I got to, for example, I want, I got first to, I want to express myself with the rawness. And I remember when I was working with you, because I came and did your course at one point and you just asked, oh, what does rawness mean? And I was like, oh, damn, now I need another mind map. I don't know what that means. So then I do another mind map and it's like digging down into what do these things mean?

And for me, what happened was on those mind maps, there were various unassociated things that I thought were unassociated, but they all kind of came together, for example. So I'm just doing a mind map of everything I love.

I had on helping women find their voice, which is what I do in my teaching. I had history because I love history. And then I went, oh, I love textured old papers in my artwork because I love the history of them. And I love helping people find their own voice with their painting.

that's what I'm saying I want. I want my expression of my voice. And so then what came in was old papers as a backdrop to some of my abstract paintings and then trying to work on ways if I want to express what's really inside, how can I

change my process to make that possible, which I know is a big focus for you. So I've never actually thought of it in that terms. But since you say, I think the mind mapping was the biggest thing for me to associate, not find a focus, but unearth the true focus that was there all along because it was in my teaching.

And it just needed to be in my painting. And since I found that, it's still very broad, right? Sometimes it's self-portraits and sometimes it's abstract, really abstract paintings. But it's all, to me, on the same focus. Yeah.

I think you just described the starting blocks of narrowing this down. That's perfect. And that is what I teach on the course. Because I think, first of all, when we're faced with all of this stuff, it's listening to yourself. And there's so many ways we can listen to ourself, through the journaling, through the questioning, through the mind mapping. It's all of this really kind of introspective, exploratory technology

techniques or activities or things that we can do just to listen to that voice because, you know, let's face it, we live in a world where we're constantly saturated with information, with other people's beliefs, ideas, with the news, with, you know, there's so much. And it's like, sometimes do you even hear your own voice?

So here we are thinking, where do I want my artwork to go? It's like, wow, you know, we have to nurture that within us. So I think all those things that you mentioned, absolutely perfect starting points for that. And then you brought in their materials, because that's like, for me, that's a bit further along the process of,

Well, how am I going to make this happen? First of all, I need the idea, you know, I need to narrow down what it is I'm really interested in. And then it's allowing yourself the time, I think, for that to like develop. So, okay, now I've got this thought, I need to give it time to nurture it. So then within that section comes like, well, what does it look like? What does it feel like? What materials might I use? You know, and we start like exploring that a little bit further and

But yeah, it sounds like you went through a really natural process to shift that along and identify what it is you wanted to work with.

What I have people do now, I'm having people do because what I did, the only way I knew. So so here's a problem that people have. They go, right. I want to express my internal emotional landscape, let's say. And they go, OK, but how how do I do that? And then they come and ask a teacher, like, how do I express my internal emotional landscape? And you go, well, it's not by asking me.

Because I don't know what it is. And I don't know... So what I started to do for myself is to make lots and lots of what I call studies. So just sketchbook work, pieces of paper. And I've just got tons of stuff lying around. So what colors does this feel like? What...

What does it feel like when I... I didn't like this, but what does it feel like when I throw paint from a tub with water, paint with water and just fling it? I didn't like that because it made a big mess of my studio and I don't like that. But what does it feel like when I get a scraper? What does it feel like when I sand back, which I love? What does it feel like? All the different things...

what kind of tonal contrast am I more comfortable with and then do some tonal studies and then all the time noticing, yeah, that feels a bit more like me, that feels a bit less like me. And I think that part is something I got from Nick Wilton in his CVP program where he talks a lot about discernment and which is my favorite of these two. So there was a lot of narrowing it down

And by the way, I make it sound like, oh, there was a lot of that, but now it's all sorted out. And now I've got to talk. It's not there. No, it's ongoing. Yeah. What about you? So how do you how did you so you decide how did you decide what or how do you decide what you're going to focus on? And then how do you begin to.

So in a similar way to you, I'd go through that introspective part and sound out all these ideas. I work a lot with words and word lists and, yeah, getting the definition. Can you talk about that? Just talk about that a bit, what you mean by that. So similar to mind mapping, but in a different format, you know, it might just be, I find mind mapping or making lists quicker than obviously journaling because I'm not even thinking about putting sentences together. So it's just like word association. And then I have these, yeah,

I'll go through lots of notes and lists and then I'll start absorbing myself in it. So exactly what you said, doing studies, doing the words, thinking about what colours does this word feel like. And then I'll...

I often like to start, you know, really filling up my world with this. So I'll be pinning things up on my studio wall. I'll be putting them in my journal where I look every day. I'll be really like feeding myself this idea or I guess just, yeah, becoming excited by it. And I think what we're doing in those moments is offering ourselves some belief and

like I've thought about it because I thought how do we run with an idea and it's like we have to really get on board with it and believe it in ourselves like at the moment coming back to how do I do it so I've

Recently, I opened my membership, The Art House, and we have it's based around lots of live sessions. So when I was setting all this up, I wasn't in my practice that often. So I feel like I've had a few months out. When we were showing up to these live sessions, I was still creating work, but I didn't feel like I was

It wasn't meaningful to me. You know, I wasn't really getting my teeth into it. I was just kind of showing up because I was teaching, you know, sharing this space. So then I thought, right, I need a creative focus here. So how am I going to go about that? And there's been this shape that's been showing up for me in my work for years and years. And, you know,

I think before, this is another interesting thing. Sometimes when we get these nudges to follow things, I don't know if you've ever been in this position, but I found myself coming away from it because I didn't want to follow it. And I don't know why I didn't want to follow it, but maybe it's because I didn't know what the end looked like. And I know that we don't want to know what the end looked like, but...

sometimes starting these things you just know how much work and energy they're gonna take and sometimes I don't want to do it yeah so that happened to me a few years ago and it was this shape that um came up after my mum passed away and I think I think

I think that was tied up in that, that I thought, I don't even know if I want to explore that because I don't know what it's going to be. I don't know what it's going to uncover. And I felt as well, because I had started exploring it, but I felt like all my paintings were becoming about this shape. And at that time I thought, oh, that's a bit boring. Nobody's going to want to see that. You know, and I kind of,

like came away from the shape and changed my focus to something else. And, you know, I've never forgotten it. And I've never forgotten thinking about what would have happened if. So, you know, what would have happened if I'd have followed it? And of course, we don't know.

So like coming forward quite a few years and now I have this time in the membership to really explore this. So it was like, well, I'm going to start this shape again. So I thought it coincided well with the 100 Day Project because that's obviously just starting. And I thought, OK, narrow down on this one shape. And at first, again, I thought the question in all is that really boring? Are you going to get what can you do with one shape?

But then it was like, let's really explore this. How can we think about developing this? So obviously we can...

draw it, sketch it, stretch it, elongate it, blow it up, you know, all these different scale things. But then I thought, well, how about trying it in different materials? So I recently, and this is another thing I've been sort of pushing away in my practice because of the fear of what's it going to open up, but it's working with clay. And I thought, oh, I've always loved, I've always wanted to work with clay and I haven't worked with clay since school days. But

But it was like, I'm, you know, practice what you preach, Sally-Anne. Like, give yourself the opportunity just to get that clay in your hands and see what happens. And then I was thinking, well, yeah, because that shape might lead to, you know, something that will go back and feed my painting. So I've got all these little ideas going on. So I did, I just went out and I didn't do this. This is the other thing I'd say when we're developing ideas. We don't have to do things in like...

like massive chunks of things. Like I didn't go out and buy a kiln and all the pottery tools. I started with... That would have killed it dead. That would have killed it dead, I bet you. Because when we go too fast, too far, it's almost like you've burned the creativity out by buying all the stuff. Yeah, and by doing that, there's already too much pressure on it.

You know, there's already like the expectation there because now I've bought this kiln. And, you know, so what I did was go out and buy a five pound pack of air dried clay. And that was it. And I bought like some tools for a pound that I could sculpt it with. And as soon as I got that in my hand, I was like, oh, wow. And, you know, the first few things were, I don't even know what I was doing. I was making these objects, but then I sat with it and sat with it. And then I found myself rolling the clay out and then cutting out the shape. So it's almost like...

It's almost like sculpting it went too far for me because it wasn't familiar to my hands. I didn't know what I was doing with it. But almost then if I can go back and think of it in terms of shape, I was more, more adept with playing with tools because obviously we're used to that. So it's like taking these very small incremental steps that I think feel achievable, feel familiar and don't push us too far in those early moments and

So now I'm sat here with these lovely shapes that I just love. And there's, you know, there's a certain thing around this shape of the way it makes me feel. But now I've got these clay, you know, made out of clay and I don't know what's going to happen with them. But I can't think too far ahead because otherwise, like you say, I've overthought it. I've killed the idea.

That thinking too far ahead. I'm just going back to something Alice and I were talking about maybe a couple of months ago. And I said to her that looking back on my past work, because that's something else I do when I'm looking for an idea or looking for a focus is I go back through past work and

if I'm lost and start looking for where the exciting parts are. And I'd done that and I'd got to all these very raw, very expressive kind of ugly things that I'd made.

But it was interesting. And then I went away from that and went back to more beautiful things. And so I said to Alice, I'm so annoyed at myself that I backed off that and went back to what I know how to. And she said, yeah, but we're not always ready at the time when the idea comes, which is what you've just described. We're not always ready. We have to kind of back off a bit because it's too much. And at that time, that was...

that I was making those things, I was in quite a dark place in my life. And I think it would have been too much. I think it's the same as you. I couldn't face maybe expressing all that because it was too much living in the already it was hard. And then I was just going to make it harder by making my artwork all about that. Whereas now I feel much lighter. What I'm expressing isn't going to be always this, you know, heavy, dark thing.

So that's really interesting. So it's this idea of incremental steps is something I think I didn't really, I'm not good at incremental steps. I'm very much like a jumper, jump in. But when you jump in, you're right, it's too much. And the other thing you said that is where people get stuck is I can't see the end. That's when they ask me.

well i want to express my inner landscape but what's that going to look like and and we don't know right and we also know that the first steps like you cut in the clay they're going to be quite simple they're not going to show you the way they're just going to be a step

Yeah.

Oh, it's so timely because only last, was it last month or last? I can't remember. But in the art house, in the membership, we had a whole session based on play as an artist, a whole discussion on it.

and saying how, and for people listening, if play does, you know, we hear this word banded around a lot, just play, just play. But if that doesn't sit well with you, I always, the artists I'm working with, I'm saying, you know, choose explore or experiment or discover. Sure. Because,

It's absolutely this living in the unknown. It's vital, in my opinion, for artists, because how will we ever move an idea along if we want to control it all the time? And also, I think, and I am actually quite good at this part of living in that, because I've learned that if I want to know the outcome and I want to know how something's going to look or feel, then I've already put a limit on it.

if I've planned it, it can't go any further than my brain can think. Whereas we know our creativity can well surpass our thinking mind, you know, whereas, but if we're trying to control everything and know the outcome and want to be certain, then we've already put a ceiling on that thing, painting, sculpture, whatever it is. Because we've already based it on what,

what our brain knows already and what our brain knows is peanuts compared to what there is compared to what capacity we could have if we just possibility you know how often do you start a painting in the not knowing have no clue what journey it's going to go on and then be like oh wow you know how could I have done this even what was it we've even yesterday we had a mindful mark making session and we um

we were, I was given different prompts for people to, you know, go on in this session. And at the end of it, it was like, you could never have, you know, people were holding up their work and being like, oh, I didn't know I could get this mark. I didn't know I could do that. And you, we can't,

we can't create these marks from our thinking mind if we try to control it because we're watching the pen or pencil or paintbrush. We're judging everything that we are doing. You know, it's like we need to release some of that. We need to not be controlling it so that when you look back, you think, oh, how did I even make those marks? Yeah. Yeah.

Funnily enough, someone sent me an email the other day saying, I love this particular painting and it's one from years ago that you did. And I'm just wondering if you could share the techniques. Yes.

um with me because I'd like to do something you make the same kind of marks and I went and found a picture of the painting and I was like god I don't know I have no idea because it I do remember that that particular painting was one that you know those ones where you're working away and then suddenly you go oh god that's it like it's done and it was a complete surprise um

I do remember that, but I don't know what I was using. And it wouldn't matter if I could tell them anyway, because you can't repeat someone else's thing. But often I look at what I've done and think, I don't know how I did that. And that can be scary as well, because then if I don't know how I did that, can I do it again is the thing people feel as well.

But I think what we do, yes, I mean, that's a very valid point. How am I going to get there again? But I think when we do these things, you then have reference points that I did it once. It doesn't matter that you didn't know how you did it. You got there. And what we do know is...

you know, the way you approach your practice, what materials you use, the way you feel when you're in your practice, what environment you created to paint that painting in. So we can replicate all of those elements to it. We can't replicate the exact painting, but we can look at the environment, the tools, the feeling, our surroundings, you know, we can, so we can narrow it down

to be able to set that kind of fertile ground, if you like, and then that comes out. So you're doing this all the time in your practice. Whenever we're pitching up in our practice, whether it's mark making, colour mixing, doing all the like groundwork,

When it comes to them, when you're painting, all of those things come together. There was just one thing I wanted to touch on because this really kind of elaborates on the point of this role of uncertainty in our work and going in the unknown. It's like I always refer back to like scientists or chefs, you know, they are constantly in experimental mode. But how, if we don't allow ourselves this, how do ideas ever move along? You know, the...

hundreds and thousands of experiments that are used in creativity for us to move forward in you know science and things with with um scientists it's the same in our in our work and it reminds me of the quote from um i've had this the other day from i think it was einstein's quote like the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results

Like if we don't change anything in our process, in our work, in our mindset, then we'd be creating the same work over and over again. One of the things that I learned from you, and this is from watching you, your Instagram account, not from anything else early on, I came across you and I don't know how I found you online. And I really learned, and I think I've said this to you before, that you are very, very good at

at self-acceptance or acceptance of whatever you make in that moment.

And what it showed me, because I always think other people are a mirror, so I could see, okay, I'm very impressed with that in you, so what's that telling me? It tells me that I hide away, or I was hiding away the ugly things I made. Not ugly as in necessarily bad, but maybe they weren't quite beautified or they weren't quite perfected or they were just raw things.

And here I am saying I want to be expressive and raw and also not show you that bit because that bit, you know, that day wasn't a perfect painting day and I didn't love what I made. And more recently, I've been much more comfortable in saying, in understanding that this is just a piece of me and today this was me. So when people say, how do I express my emotions in paint?

You just paint and then you did, right? That was it. What you made was it that day. It might have been the wrong colors. It might have been a bad composition in your eyes. It might have been, you know, not the kind of painting you imagine yourself making, but that was you that day.

And now my sketchbooks and my studio books are much more, some pages are like, eek, but I'm leaving it. I'm not going to make it look nice, which I could. I'm just going to leave it. And that's not for everyone. But for me, this idea of expression is such a personal development thing.

It's probably quite selfish and maybe not of interest to everyone, you know, that this is, I'm just doing me. I don't necessarily expect other people to be interested. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But it's so important for me because of all the times in my past when I was younger that I tried to please everyone, put on a nice face, you know.

Yeah. Just, you know, try to be a certain way to make sure that people wouldn't be offended by my presence in some way or another. And I am quite big person as in I'm quite quiet when you meet me, but I'm quite big as in I do a lot of things and make a big impact. And that throughout my childhood meant I lost a lot of friends. People don't like that. People get intimidated by that and they move away from you.

And just being able to realize from seeing you work, no, it's okay to put all of the things we make are part of the seeds of our idea, not just the good things, not just the things we're ready for other people to see. It's been amazing to me. And I wonder...

how you got to that because I think more people are like me when we start painting that we want everything we make to look good so other people will be impressed or somehow yeah

And every, by the way, everybody, the things Sally-Anne made were looking great. That's why I was drawn to them. But they were looking great in a very organic way. Whatever you were doing at that time, I can't remember, but it was very organic and like, I made this, I made this, I made this. And you weren't filtering what you showed other people. I think, I think it's probably just,

putting more emphasis on the process than the finished product and being really curious about my own process and not judging it you know because I'm not I'm not judging it on the piece I wasn't looking for I mean I may be selling my work at that time I may be going through a period when I wasn't but it's more about like the acceptance in myself and and the acceptance of

Yeah, just not putting pressure on it. And I want to enjoy the process. And when I say enjoy, I don't mean that everything's happy all the time. And I'm skipping around my studio. Sometimes there's tears, sometimes there's, you know, anger and sadness in that, but it's, I'm placing the importance, I'm placing the higher importance on myself and expressing those feelings and getting them out of me rather than what's visually on the, on the paper or on the surface. And yeah,

And I don't know how, how do you accept that? I guess you just, I try to practice like non-attachment of a lot of things in my life. So I,

you know whether it's uh whatever we experience but definitely for creativity and for whatever's coming out of me that day i'm not going to get too attached to that at all because it's and it could be a piece of paper i could tear it up within a second it's meaningless really um

But the, yeah, and I guess there's things along the way that you do get, you can, I guess, work to those places. Things like tearing up the work. I remember being in a class with a lady once and we had to all swap work of people in the class. So we had to paint on other, you know, draw or paint on other people's work, which in itself felt a bit like, oh, this feels scary. And then at the end she said, right, hold all these papers up and now tear them up. And it was like, oh,

Because not only, you know, it felt like, oh, but in those moments, they sound small, but that's powerful, you know, to do things like that because it does release the attachment to your own work and then you're not judging all the time. And I think it's,

I think it's, yeah, like not getting caught up on things, looking for the momentum in my work, knowing that I'm running with an idea. And if I do one of those, it's going to feel precious. If I do 10 of those, I'm going to get going with it. If I do 50 of those, I'm going to be flying with it. You know, then you're not caught up on what comes next.

What comes out that day, because it's, there's an acceptance in there that like a bit like when you said earlier, well, how am I going to get there again? How am I going to get there again? Well, by working, by keeping this momentum going, by keep trying things, by keep stretching out of your comfort zone. Yeah. Yeah.

The other person I learned this from, apart from you, was this artist I've spoken about before on the podcast who was local to me, a farmer who painted. And his process was to finish work...

go upstairs to his studio attic thing, paint all night, usually make two paintings, big ones on paper, really loose free ones, pile them up and leave them for his wife who was an interior designer. And then she would pick which ones she thought were good and she would frame them and they had a gallery on the property for you to come and look at his work.

And the first thing I remember striking me was his complete lack of interest in which one she picked. He was like, oh, yeah, she does that because his fascination was with the painting. And then the second thing that really I remember is he took us over on one visit to his plan chest and he pulled it open. And there were all these drawings and paintings in there and some of them were so bad.

really what I would consider embarrassing. And he was like pulling them out going, oh yeah, I did this one the other night and then this one didn't really work out but then this one led to this. And at the time I wasn't really painting that much. This was like 2016 that I met him. But I just remember thinking,

Wow, he's not bothered. Not that he wasn't bothered about his work, but he wasn't attached to us thinking he was great and trying to impress us with anything. He just was interested in the process, as you just said, and in sharing it.

Well, I think it's when we can really focus on like creativity as the driver here, not the outcome, not the product, not the canvas, not the paper. It's like it's the workings of what's happening inside of you. And we just have these...

things that we create, whether they're paintings or sculptures that come out of you. But, and it's like, we put so much value and judgment on that. But actually when we, you know, we talk about creativity as a practice and it's this like inner workings, and then we could talk about meditation as a practice and that's all internal. We don't put value on what comes out of your meditation, do we? It,

It's like, how can we value that? How can we judge that? We don't. We just do it with art because we have a product at the end of it. But when we're actually doing something for the process, the results aren't always tangible. You know, we don't see the movement, but we do in art because we have the physical thing at the end. So that's what's judged on it. But like that farmer, he was purely just in that for the process. Yeah. Yeah.

For the love of doing it. And because of that, his work was imbued with that feeling and people bought it. It was always people that are buying paintings because it had the feeling of complete freedom and joy in it that people want to own. But that wasn't his, that wasn't why he did it that way. But you see it coming out.

I think the more, like I did something the other day and we were in the membership at the moment, we're sharing some of the 100 day projects and I've been, you know, sharing my work. And I had this thought the other day that I wanted to try some self-portraits, partly because you're in Art Tribe this month, your things about self-portraits. I've been watching that. And there's been a few things where they've caught my eye and I thought, oh, I'd like to try that. And

I think that's another thing where I've been thinking, oh, don't go down this path. What am I opening up? And I've kind of like not, I guess, like not open the door to it. But the other day I thought, look, what's this is the thing. Low risk, low, low risk. And if I can, if it's just a piece of paper, there's like no sort of value in it. I thought, what's like five minutes a day? Let yourself do it.

So I'd sat in bed. So I was really tired. I had a mirror and I was blind drawing. Oh my gosh, Louise, they were awful. They were awful. But it's that thing of like not caring. And I posted these in my membership group and everybody was like laughing a bit and they were like, Sally, because they were quite bad. Yeah. But,

But I thought as well, but this is me and this is a moment in time. And if you judge me on that, when I've just said, look, I'm really tired. These are my self-portraits. They're blind drawings. Then if you judge me on that, then that's on you. I've already said like, they're pretty awful.

You know, they bear like what I thought they had a scary resemblance to me. But people in the group have said, no, they don't look anything like you. One of the things about that, though, that you mentioned about this tangible product and when we do something like that, self-portraits. So some of the ones I did were.

where I'm really proud of them because I think they really convey something of how I was feeling. They don't particularly look like me, they're not carefully painted, they're very emotive, but I think they express something, so I'm proud of them. My best friend came in my studio and he's seen my self-portraits before and laughed at them. I once did a whole year of self-portraits and he just laughed at the sketchbook.

And he was like, oh, you serious? And he said, but you can draw really well. At the time, I remember him saying, and you're so bonny. He said, why do you make yourself look so horrible? And I was like, no, but that isn't the point. I'm not doing this to make myself look pretty. Anyway, he came in my studio with these big emotional ones on the wall and he just burst out laughing at one of them. And he went, oh, Louise on a good day. And I said,

I know it doesn't look pretty, but that is not the point. And he went, I know, I know, it's not the point. The point is to, he's not after the chicken anyway. Because there's a tangible thing that other people can judge, right? We can't hide it because it's there, maybe in sketchbooks, but even then people might flick through your sketchbooks. And that's difficult for a lot of people because your spouse walks in or your friend walks in and goes, what's that?

I think with writing, for example, you can close your notebook or put it away and nobody has to see what you were trying to do. But with painting, we've got something that everyone can see. Everyone has an opinion on. A lot of my students have a spouse who will say, well, this is fine, but when are you going to make something to sell? You know, when are you going to make this hobby pay kind of thing? I think that's a difficult thing because developing and nurturing an idea actually means...

that you have to be okay. Either you have to lock everyone out, which is possible, and not let anyone see what you're doing, or you've got to tolerate comments from people who don't understand that

Unless you're lucky enough to be married to an artist and have friends who are artists and, you know, that would be different. But for most of us, we don't have that. We have regular people in our lives who don't understand what we're doing. Have you ever felt hurt by that? Have you come to being accepting or have you always been OK with that?

No, not always, I wouldn't say, because I was really, I think when you're first stepping out, even to create art, it's a really vulnerable thing, whether we're creating just in our sketchbooks or whether we're planning for an exhibition, you know, there's so much vulnerability in even committing to yourself to do it, you know, allowing yourself the space to do it. And I remember back then,

through the years when I used to, you know, just work in small sketchbooks or something and I would kind of hide them because it's like, they're just my thing. And I don't want, I don't want anybody else jumping on the ideas and judging and things because it's like that little voice that I've allowed to come out and say, Oh, I might like to try this. You know, if somebody comes along, that's just going to get squashed for me. And then, you know, it's like, once you keep telling yourself now and thinking about these, the sketchbook never gets opened again. Yeah.

So I definitely think, I mean, if like now I do have some people that come to my studio and I can see them, you know, what about this? What about this? And I just think if I've got the time, I try to explain my ideas and, you know,

you know, if somebody, I think if we can communicate this and say that we're at a very nurturing stage, these are just my ideas floating around. I think we're met with some, a bit of understanding, but we don't always have the opportunity to communicate. So I think, I think what I do now is kind of,

I don't know, it's hanging on to that inner knowing. And this comes back to the belief that I mentioned at the start, believing in yourself that you want to nurture this idea. It might go somewhere, it might not, but it's like valuing your own nudges, valuing that creativity within yourself to just think, I'm going to nurture my way through this and just holding something strong within yourself when you've got those outside voices, you know, when are you going to sell this or whatever.

When are you going to, you know, make money from it? And I mean, it's, I hate that that happens. I hate that it comes back to this thing, doesn't it? Because it's a tangible object. Where did we get the idea that just having, you know, just having like a small piece

intimate practice with your creativity that just makes you feel good. Where did we start putting a price on that? Yeah, yeah. Because we see, you know, people making career out of art and selling it. And some people, I have so many people in my membership, they don't want to sell their art. It's just a really lovely place to come, exercise your creativity, be with community. Like there's so much...

horrible stuff out there in the world yeah to have something just a space just a place you come to whether it's gathering with others whether it's just you know in your spare room whether it's in your garage just to have those quiet moments with yourself

There shouldn't be a price on that. To just jump away from the people who don't want to sell, another point I wanted to make about this to people who do want to sell is what I found is since I've worked much more on nurturing ideas and thinking about them and analyzing them, and it's so much easier, though, to sell work or to expand

explain work, let's say I don't want to apply to galleries, but if you want to apply to a gallery,

They want to hear a cohesive thought process and a body of work that matches that thought process because then they know you're really in it and you'd be consistent. If you are in a group exhibition and you're curating and people come and visit and you have to talk about the work, if it's open studios, any time you're meeting with people,

like you say, you don't always get the chance to explain, but when you do, you're speaking about your work in a really deep way. That's coming from a real place that other people can then relate to and understand. And I find that even people who don't like abstract painting, um,

will take it on board and take it seriously. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. If you can share, if you can share your kind of the way you see things as an artist, what inspired the work, where it stemmed from, where it came from, if you can take them back right to those initial ideas, which brings us back to the beginning of the conversation, like how does this start for you? What's your process look like? How do you work through that?

if somebody could if somebody is willing to stand and listen to you they're on board with that painting then because they're they're they're on board with you and as a human you're sharing your ideas and sharing your deep inner thoughts about you know something so that they're relatable often because the things that we paint about um are usually relatable whether it's a feeling whether it's something representational you know it normally stems from something that

somebody else will have experienced or seen or you know have knowledge of in the world um and that's why it's really important that's what um you mentioned my course creative shift at the beginning that's what creative shift's all about we go through such an introspective journey that you not only get to know your work but who you are as an artist you know and the what's important to you and the experiences we've gone through and even that that's all relatable and

Because we are as humans, you know, and the more we can understand that and the more we are talking about it, reaffirming it, that's where our confidence comes in, in talking about the work, because we've...

We've got on board with our own ideas, you know. We've had the space to really reaffirm to ourself why we're doing something. Why did I choose that material? Well, why is it, you know, and we've answered all of our whys and then we can talk about it. Yes.

And there's not an end to that. That's a continual process because that happens for me. That happens at every stage of the journey with whatever I'm doing, this clay work now. I don't know if that will stay around or not, but I know my reasons for doing it. I know how it's making me feel. I know my thoughts around it and they are all transferable to my next project as well. You know, so there'll be that thread. So I think that, yeah, everything we do,

it's not just for the now. It's like we can keep moving this along. It's just learning the way we can approach things, I think, is important. Yeah.

do you ever do anything you're working on a focus you're deep in it you're exploring what do you do with the other ideas that come up so you're working on your clay pieces in this shape you go out for a walk it's spring suddenly all the plants coming up and you're like oh I want to

I'm just making it up now, but I really want to start painting some abstract florals because I feel spring. And also there was those self-portraits that I want to do. So I need to, how do you, because this is something that happens to me. I get a lot of ideas all the time, but I'm deep in this, but there's still other ideas coming. Yeah.

Do you indulge those a little bit? Do you put them aside? What do you do? Well, if I can, I do. Yes, if I've got the time. Obviously, if something's all-encompassing and we're really pushed, then the gate's just got to come down at some point. But I will always make a note of them. I'll either be keeping notes in my phone if I'm on the go quickly, or obviously we've got our cameras on the phone, so I'll be constantly...

Again, allowing the thoughts to come in. I don't, you know, and I'll just make a note of them. It might be something that I can run with now. It might not.

But if I can bring these things in in another way, like if I go out and see all the springs come in and there might be some nature that I'm really inspired by, it might be that that just seeps in. And I think, oh, then when I'm back in the studio with the clay, is there a way that maybe it's just a palette that I'm bringing in? Or maybe it's, I don't know, I want to take one of my photographs and project.

print and maybe I can, can I imprint that on the clay? You know, so I'll let the ideas definitely, I won't, I won't close off the ideas if I've got room to invite them in because it's that thing of if I'm saying, no, I'm only working with this clay at the moment, I'm only working with this shape, I'm possibly, I'm

already putting a limit on where that could go. You know, well, wouldn't it be nice if I brought in that really lovely pink of the echinacea flower that I've just seen and that might, the leaf shape might be my next point of clay, you know? So this is like...

thread and I think staying very present like that in your process um I like and that's where I guess working intuitively comes in because you're just allowing oh okay that happened and then that led to that and I'll drop that bit but I'll take that bit forward and I think that creates a nice flow um I do think though just saying that when you said there about people that do want to

because this was something that came up in our play session the other week when we had the discussion in the membership. Somebody said, but I...

I can't play at the moment because she was on a deadline. She had an exhibition. And I think in those, you know, we've got to be realistic. We can't in those times think, well, I'll just bring that in and I'll just bring that in. If you, you know, your 20 paintings, how they're going to hang, then I think there's a time to put things probably just on your notepad or, you know, pop them on your studio wall for later. So yeah,

we do have to look at the parameters there of what capacity do I have at the moment? What can I allow in? And what do I really need to knuckle down on? Yeah, so true. But you make such a good point that

What I'm positioning or framing as a distraction, I had this idea, I had this idea, might not be a distraction. It might be a clue from the universe that you're supposed to notice this and you're supposed to blend that with that. Because that sounds stupid, you're supposed to. But I do feel like often things just come through you.

Not that you make them. So if they're coming through you, they're coming in more than one way in and we've got to be open to that. Yes. So it's a good point because I, at the moment I'm working abstractly on a series with a specific, all, all, all everything's on the same focus of expression of voice, but one is a series of abstracts. And then I've got these self portraits. And sometimes when I,

feel like doing a self-portrait or working on one that's already there. I feel guilty that, oh, this is just self-indulgent when you're supposed to be doing this series. And then I have to have a little talk to myself that who knows, maybe these things are going to come together anyway at some point. But if there's something nudging at you,

It must be there for a reason. Exactly. Yeah, because we don't all get the same nudges, you know, and that's what makes us really individual as artists. I'm not inspired necessarily by the piece of collage paper in your studio that you're inspired by, you know, and that's your stuff. So that's brilliant. You run with that and I run with this. And I think it is really wonderful.

You know, this is the gold of an artist, the way you see things and the way you experience the world. That's your uniqueness. And yeah, so noticing what you notice and absorbing that, even if you can't absorb it all now or it can't go into your work now, you know, do sort of clock it and...

make it make it pop it in your journal make a you know notes about it pop it on your studio wall because these are the things that have captured you and then you know at the end of the month or in a few months or whatever when you're leafing through things it's like oh yeah do you remember that and then then maybe that's it's time then or you know and what you said there about feeling guilty when you're working on one thing you think oh I should be working on that other thing I think like

Obviously, again, if you've got a deadline coming up, you do have to get the work done. But otherwise, it's like really be mindful and I guess acknowledge what you're getting from the thing that's really inspiring you because it's probably doing a little bit of that that's fueling the other thing.

So somebody in my group the other day, she was faced with a dilemma and she said, I should be working on this particular thing, but I've really got this little urge to do this thing, this novelty thing, she called it. And I said, well, is there a way? Do we have to have one or the other here? Is there a place for and?

you know, could I do this and do that? And again, it comes down to your own time restrictions and what your setup is like. But if you could feed this like novelty part of your, you know, your whatever's capturing you, if you could even have a taste of that, there's probably a lot of power in it that it's going to fuel the thing that you like should be working on or that's your main project. But I definitely think I'm really a champion of, you know,

you know, not telling ourselves no. I said no to things for years and years and years. You know, when I was working full time and I was working long hours, I'd come home, I was really tired. And that voice of your creative voice was always kind of like, oh, do you think one day I could, do you think one day? And I was like, no, no, just tired, just getting on the train again. It was just like, I don't know, it's

Just told myself no a lot. And I saw that by doing that, those voices stopped coming.

And it's a really like sad place to be because you just, you lose belief. You lose belief in that you actually can create or do something or open that sketchbook or allow yourself to dream, allow yourself to make the marks because we keep, you know, I remember just thinking, well, this is just pointless. This is just pointless. But it was like even believing, could I be an artist one day? And my steps to that, I think,

I just, when I moved one time, I came out of a relationship, I moved, I lived on my own and I turned my whole flat just into a studio. And all I had, all I wanted was patio doors and a big painting wall. And then I moved.

I just indulged myself. This is the thing. We started this conversation on how do you develop and nurture your ideas? And this is on a big scale of how did I develop and nurture this idea of... And I become an artist one day. And I just went all in on that. And I was still working, but I set my flat up and I just painted and painted and painted. And it was... I used to get up at like 4.30, 5 o'clock in the morning, try and paint before work. As soon as work was over, I'd do that. And it's just...

I didn't even know would that work or would it not? But I had to give myself the opportunity. I had to, after all those years of saying no, I had to just indulge myself, even if it was for a year or whatever. And slowly, slowly, slowly, you know, this incremental steps that we talked about starting to share on Instagram and then, you know, just progressing it that way. And it's like, then when you look back, it's like, wow, if I'd have never heard

allowed myself, you know, to take those little steps and to,

to put my painting wall up, to pin things up. When people come in my flat, they used to be like, Carl, what are you doing in here? Like it was this crazy, crazy place of creativity, stuff everywhere and stuff. But I just, that's the belief in yourself where you have that little tiny voice inside yourself and you just think, come on, come on, just take the next step, just do the next little thing. So that's how nurturing your ideas on a bigger sense is like, yeah, just...

Yeah, I have quite a few students who've done that too, you know, who live alone and who've basically said, well, I took over the dining space, but that wasn't enough. So now I've taken over the living space and maybe they're in a flat and, you know, now it's just the whole flat, but I've got a bedroom I can sleep in, but maybe...

am i in up the bedroom yeah i my flat was just filled with my art and it does feel like but you have to absorb yourself in it you have to believe it um it's like those new york artists in the 50s and 60s in those big lofts where they live and painted in one space yeah i don't think that would work for me i'm so messy that there would be nowhere to sit down yeah

Well, I did just squeeze a sofa in on one wall. But, you know, at that time, I got rid of my TV. I got rid of everything. I just thought, I need to go all in on this, you know, to back myself. And the same thing happened when this studio came in. I was just going to say that. You did the same with this. Same thing. It was like, no, no. I remember standing in here, not even thinking anything.

that I could do it all the voices it's too expensive who are you to have this studio what you're going to do there you don't you don't even paint enough to do that you know all of these things and it took me six weeks for my my heart was going go on Sally Ann just just just go for it back yourself on this and my head was going absolutely no way everybody around me was telling me it's a bad idea you shouldn't do that too much pressure all of this and I had about um

Had a few thousand pounds left from my mom's inheritance. And I worked out on an Excel spreadsheet that if I didn't make any money, I could survive for, I think it was six or eight months. And I thought, well, after that, I just have to give the studio up if I don't, you know, make any money. And yeah, and I just decided. And the thing that made me say yes in the end was thinking of all those years when I told myself, oh, it feels quite emotional.

all those years when I told myself no it was like nobody else is going to back you on any of your decisions whether you're opening your sketchbook or whether you're taking on a big studio

Nobody else is going to do it for you or back you on it. And I thought, if I tell myself no, what's that saying to me on a deeper level of saying, like, you know, I don't believe in myself. I'm not backing myself. Yeah. That's why I chose to just go for it. And, geez, that's a ride in itself. And you never had to give it up. You didn't have to give it up. I never had to give it up. No, never had to. You're doing great with all sorts of stuff now. And that just...

But it's that saying, leap and the net will appear. It's the same with our ideas. Leap and the net will appear, but you won't know what the net's going to look like.

And you just have to... And sometimes your idea will peter out. I mean, I've had those ideas that start with great gusto and then it just peters into nothing. But usually it leads to something else. It leads to something. Yeah, that's the important thing. It leads to something. And I think, you know, what we've just spoken there was like the bigger decisions in life. So when we're talking about...

you know, nurturing our smaller ideas or shall I try that? I think, you know, let's take this pressure off. If it's low risk and low resource and you can do it and it's like a roll of paper or a new tube of paint or, you know, something you want to try, give yourself the chance, you know, because you don't know where anything's going to lead. But,

And you've got to be in the position. It's like I was thinking about this. If you say I want to be a swimmer or I want to swim, well, you've got to get in the pool. You've got to be in that environment to swim. You know, if you want to be an artist or you want to have you've got to be in your sketchbook, you've got to be in your studio. You've got to be actively creating and in the doing of it to to progress.

It's amazing how alike we think. My granddad had this saying, this was about when you were thinking about buying something, but it also applies to this. He used to say, do you want it? Can you afford it? Will you use it? Like those were the three criteria. And if the answers were all yes, do it. Well, do you want it? This thing in your art, can you afford to do it? Yes.

will you do it you know just go do it there's no there doesn't have to be another thing and will it make you money and will it finish in a series of great paintings and will you be in moma one day and people will make books about it doesn't have to be any of that you've got to yeah you've got to scale it down and that's like me you know that second part there can you afford it you know

Can I afford or do I want to go out now and buy a kiln and buy all the pottery gear and everything? No. Can I afford a five-pound pack of air-dried clay to just get something in motion? Yeah, happily. And let's see what happens then. So low risk, low resource. And now that's – I'm thinking now with these things –

Oh, they'd look lovely hung up. And what about when they turn in the light? What about the shapes that they make in the shadows? Oh, they'd look lovely in my paintings. You know, so my ideas are already running. But they started with this five pound pack of clay that might lead to some new thing in my paintings. And it didn't take long. It's a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon that I rolled out some clay.

Just allowing yourself to do something in a small way, you know, in a low cost way or a low resource way, not much time or energy or, you know, if it's not costing you too much. Yeah. Time wise, financially. Let yourself do it. Yeah. I think the thing that's generated the most.

creative ideas for me that's low cost is my studio journals, which is just doing something most days or every day that I'm in my studio for 20 minutes, no more, don't allow myself more, 20 minutes, two page spread and

just do something. Everything's different. It might be a drawing with charcoal of something realistic. It might be an abstract splotches of paint. It might be pressing a palette paper down on a page and leaving it. It could be anything, but just that in itself. And some days that's all I've got time for. Some days I've only got 20 minutes. So that's what I do.

that in itself generates other things out of it and it only costs the price of a sketchbook and a bit of paint so yeah and that itself it is those things but that in itself what you're talking about there is the consistency of showing up and because you show up every day just for the 20 minutes you've got your boundary there and that's great but what

what it means is you're less precious. This comes back to our earlier part in the conversation. You're less precious about just putting down that palette paper there or just trying that mark because you're not putting all your eggs in one basket here of this is my only time that I pitch up in the week. So it's got to be this and you're going to be, you know, you've got this

It's proving your self-worth by making something valuable. Exactly. So you can't even get into that, but there's a whole thing of why are you having to prove you're valuable by making a good painting all the time? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so amazing how alike we think it really is. Yeah.

All right. Well, thank you so much, Sally-Ann, for doing this at short notice because I only contacted you the other day and said, do you want to do a podcast? But I'm really glad we did. I think I love this conversation. You give me lots to think about. Yeah, me too. It's just made up of many parts. There's just so much to uncover with it. So, yeah, thank you for inviting me. It was lovely to chat with you.

And I'll put links to Sally Ann's stuff in the show notes below. But what's your website and Instagram, Sally Ann? Website sallyannashley.com and Instagram is sallyannashleyart, all one word. Okay. And you can find Sally Ann's course and membership and paintings and everything there if you're interested in seeing what she's up to. And we'll see you again next time. Thanks a lot, everybody. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

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