Making Time & Space for Creative Flow [265]
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Hi and welcome to Art Juice. This is honest, generous and humorous conversations to feed your creative soul and get you thinking with me Louise Fletcher and me Alice Sheridan. We are up to episode 265 of the show which still blows my mind. So what have you been up to Alice because we haven't spoken for a couple of weeks. We've been off again for a few weeks. So what have you been doing? Been on holiday. Nice.

Very nice. It's the first time we've been away as a family since 2019. Can you believe it? So we had my son and his girlfriend. So that could have been tricky, couldn't it? But actually, it was very nice. It was lovely to have her with us.

And my daughter, and we came back the day before we had to take her to university. So it was a, we had a little sneaky week where we could all go just between his MA and her starting hers. So we went off to Spain and we did part city, Seville and Cadiz, and then we went down to the beach and it was fabulous. It was lovely, but you know, it's quite nice to be in that phase of going on a holiday as separate adults, rather than feeling like you have to take care of everyone. Yeah, I can imagine. So,

we've been doing that I had the private view of my solo show while I was away odd yeah that is odd isn't it how did it go did they send you videos or anything they were too busy to send videos but too busy to send videos but it's lovely the work looks lovely up but it's

It's so strange having spent so many years being really connected with every stage of the process to hand it over to someone else and not be involved with so much at this stage. So some quite interesting, I don't know, it's just making me reflect about how that feels, really. In one sense, it's really beautiful to be hands off and let somebody else do that part of it.

And also there's a little bit of me that misses it a bit. Misses knowing. I found when I had that exhibition where I didn't know where things went, there was a little bit of like, I don't, well, I didn't have any connection with you. Yeah. It's interesting because it's making, it's,

It makes me feel like there's more clear space to get back to continuing creative work, which I think is an interesting change. I don't feel like I'm attached to having to sell these paintings before I move on.

what stage I was at creatively onwards. So I'm quite looking forward to that. We've spoken, both of us, on separate episodes about having work that we hadn't put up for sale because we couldn't just face, or for whatever reason, I felt it was because I couldn't face all of the admin related to it.

So you haven't had that experience. It went and now you've got space without having, it's not all lying around. I still see those paintings in my studio and think, I really should put those on my website. But then I have to buy frames and then I have to sort all that out. And then I have to upload everything. And it's just a lot.

Yeah, it is interesting. The few days before I went away, it all kind of coincided. And I mean, like I say, the dates were the way the dates worked out. And I will go down there at some point and do a visit and maybe an artist talk and things because it's on for a few weeks. So if you want to see the work, if you're listening, if you go to Sanctuary Gallery,

You can see the work there. And if you follow Sanctuary Gallery on Instagram, Sharon is sharing some reels to see it all in situ. But it's in Newnham. So it's kind of West Cotswolds, Forest Dean type area, that part of the UK area.

Lovely little village apparently, lots of nice restaurants and things there, so nice place to go for a day out maybe. Listed building, so very interesting location and venue to have the work in, which was partly what stimulated some of the thinking behind it and keeping things a bit simpler.

But it was interesting that just before I went away, I was, you know, all that part, photographing, editing, naming images, doing in situ stuff. I was still needing to do all of that. Yeah. Get it all over to her so that she had everything that she needed. So I just thought it was just interesting because very often there's this idea that if you have a gallery, a magical gallery, you know, all the work will be done for you.

Yeah, what I did was put them all, now I remember, I put them all on my website as well with a link to the gallery. So I had to photograph everything, upload everything, write the description.

I was glad I'd done that because I sold more than they did. Yeah. You know, I got people to go more and to email them more than they actually sold. I have been very naughty. I haven't emailed anybody about anything for a very long time. And if you're one of the people getting in touch with me saying you're going to open Connected Artists membership in September, have you done it? Have I missed it? No, I haven't missed it. No, I haven't.

Just being on holiday. Alice, it's the opposite to me because people have been writing me saying, enough with the email, stop, because I've been doing my course marketing and people are so funny. It happens every year that if you're emailing a lot, they think,

You gave them this free thing. It's bloody amazing. There's lots of personal interaction with me. It kills me to do it. It's so much work for eight days. And then at the end of it, they're like, oh, I don't like the way you're marketing. I don't like the fact that you're asking me now to buy something. There's always a few. Most people are lovely, of course, and most people understand that's the deal. But yeah, so I'm the opposite. People are like, she won't stop emailing me.

I think all of that sort of stuff is so interesting, isn't it? Like we've just talked about all of these little points of shift along the journey and reflect on how are you feeling about it now? What does this mean you might want to do differently? I was in a...

One of those free things, free workshop type thing yesterday with somebody I've known about for a while who I think is very interesting, but she's also very full on. Personally, I would find it difficult to be in a space with her alone.

she makes me feel quite pressured, like really like a little bit panicky, but the idea of it was a good idea. And if that's all I take from it, that's, that's enough. But there was one point where she was talking about an idea she had and somebody in the comments and the zoom comment basically disagreed with her. Now,

But that in itself, how we deal with disagreement and discussion around people who have a different viewpoint to our own. It was really interesting because she just said, that's OK, you can disagree. And if you don't want to be here, that's fine. Don't waste your time. You can leave now. Yeah. I was like, OK, you know, it made me smile because it's.

she's right. You know, she said, if you have better things to do with your time, go and do it. That's fine. But you know, you're here to learn my viewpoint and this is what I'm sharing. And this is what I've seen through working with hundreds of people. It's up to you, whether you take it or not. I've actually suggested to a few people in the past that why don't you do something like this? Like if you have a strong point of view,

go teach people it like but don't ask me because I get emails saying will you teach this in your newsletter like no because that's not what I believe or I got an email the other day I wrote an email this about the importance of psychology in art and how you can't separate one from the other they're the same thing and this yeah it was great this

this lady wrote in and said it was abusive bullying and patronizing and by the way what are your qualifications to even say all this and what's your psychology qualifications and i just wrote back and said you really might want to sign up for a different newsletter because i say this kind of stuff all the time and i haven't got any psychology qualifications so if you don't like it's probably best not to read my newsletter anymore like

But don't write to me telling me not to say what I believe. Even that is interesting, isn't it? Because, yes, you can have psychology from an academic degree level study, historical background. But actually what we're talking about and often what we talk about on here is the way we work with how our minds operate.

And you don't need a qualification for that. We all have our own unique individual experience of that. You know what's helped you. You know what struggles you've overcome. I know where my challenges have been, what I'm interested in, how I work with it, how we play with the balance. That's just being human. I'm not trying to pretend to be a psychology professor. No, and I'm not trying to pretend to be right about anything.

There was another comment came up on Facebook. Brilliant. Always a man. I put a video of a work in progress, a little real. And this man wrote, Oh God, I can't remember the exact wording, but this is the tone of it was, Oh God, 70 years of abstract expressionism. When we get down to this absolute shit with no talent or something. And I just wrote back to him. Oh, you know, thanks for stopping by. Nice to meet you. I don't know who he is. Um,

And I never said I was talented or special. I just put my picture on the Internet. And imagine if I was young or easily hurt or just starting out and you had written that. And I just wrote, do better. I was like, that is just so rude.

And also, like I've said to you before, I realize now, does not even touch the sides anymore, whereas once upon a time that would have really hurt me. Yeah. But it does frustrate and upset me, this feedback that people get, the lady you were teaching,

If she'd have been thrown off by that, when did, this is my question, having taught a big group now recently, when did we get the idea that we could go through life without ever being offended or disagreed with in any way, shape or form, and that we were allowed, any time we were offended or disagreed with, we were allowed to say, I'm sorry, but you've offended me with that comment. And the other person had to change their behavior to accommodate that.

Because that is what happens now when people disagree with you. Like that woman's response is brilliant because when they disagree with you, it's not just disagreeing, which is fine. It's almost a demand that you switch what you've said because I didn't like it. I didn't enjoy that. And I think it's also probably true that for every one person like that man or the lady that speaks up, there are probably 10 people who

who do listen, think, I don't agree with that, make their own decision as an adult about whether they want to engage with it or not, whether that's perhaps something that they're prepared to learn from and stay open to for a while. You know, that I think more the question is, when did we get to a point where you ever thought you would learn something new?

Without having to go through that kind of confrontation. Isn't that the point of always, like always when you're learning something new, you're getting from a place that is comfortable, that you know about. You have to go through that kind of stage of, well, there's something, really? Is that right? I don't know. How does that work for me? Am I going to try it on for size and see? Am I going to go through the discomfort in order to get to the other side? Yeah. You know?

I love it. I mean, the more uncomfortable, not the more uncomfortable, the better, but, you know. More inputs that are different. I think more inputs that are different. And I also think that being aware of where you are in your capacity for being receptive changes often. Yeah.

changes with how many other things you're coping with, changes with how busy your life is, changes with whether it's the seasonal time of year. I haven't sent emails. I haven't done all sorts of marketing things I should have done with. I made a really clear decision that when we got back from holiday and my daughter was going to university, that was my priority. You know, so there are other things and there are other things going on for all sorts of people all the time. And this is why I think that knowing where you are, like where are you in this?

how long is this stage going to last for? How long do you want to let it last for? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? That, that like knowing that things don't last forever, there's always another stage coming further down the line. That was the, that was the biggest kind of penny drop thing for me at one stage. I think it came from having small kids actually and thinking that every stage lasts forever. Yeah.

I think one of the things I've learned from that free course this time is how much I've changed in the way I respond to people when, so now we're not talking about complainers, we're talking about people trying to learn, but you say, and it's so, the limiting beliefs are so clear to me now, which I wouldn't have seen as limiting beliefs before. I would just as seen as their reality. And now I see it. Yeah.

it is their reality, but it's not reality. So in their mind, it is their reality, but it's really an illusion. And it's that realization that, oh, that made me see how much I've changed. So now instead of the way I would have answered people, I do a lot more saying, do you want to think that? Or do you want to hold that belief? Or where did that come from? Or who do you think put that into your head first? And then

Helping people and most people are very receptive to that once they realize, oh yeah, hang on, maybe that is my mother or my father or a teacher at school or some kid in bullied me in primary school.

But some people really do not. They really don't want to be pushed on that and you have to just leave them. But it's become clear to me teaching it this year, the free course, how different I am and in how I respond to people, because I've no longer got the patience to try and chivvy you along any other way. I just want to get to do you want to change?

If you want to change, it'll be painful. All the things you just said, it'll be challenging and you'll have all these ups and downs, but you do not have to stay stuck where you are. If you want to stay stuck where you are, that's fine. But I just need to move on to someone else who I can help. Yeah, without judgment. I mean, I think that's the thing. Yeah, exactly. It's like people are at different stages always of their journey, but I just think this idea of capacity is a really...

is a really interesting one. Yeah, just something maybe that I'm... So we kind of got... Did we get off topic or are we on topic? Because we said we're going to have... Well, it's in, doesn't it? Yeah, we said we were going to have this discussion today about creativity...

And you were talking about creativity in terms of space and time to allow things, I think, because you sent me a short message. We did our usual in-depth planning and detailed note-taking before we started. So tell me what you were thinking and then let's go from there. Oh, I can't remember what I was thinking because it was yesterday. So, you know, life moves on. You've tangled up in a bramble and you can't remember what. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Yeah.

I think it is just this sense of, and again, it is a point and it often happens, you know, when people have been like, when you've been away on holiday, when you've had a break for your routine, when you've had being in a different location, sleeping better, not necessarily having to worry about all the mundane things about cooking food and all of that kind of stuff.

it's different and it does give you extra time to reflect. Now, I'm not saying that I would want to live life like I was on holiday every week of my life because I wouldn't, or that that's an ideal because I don't think it is. But I think those times to reflect when you come home and you think, OK, which part of feeling like that do I want to bring back into the way that I do things? And this has definitely been a growing, growing theme for me.

both in terms of what I want to learn about, how I want to live my life and how I want to paint is this feeling of spaciousness and not rushing things. And I think what triggered it was,

yesterday was almost the first time that I've been back on Instagram for a while and I I I do I still love it I've made some really an interesting new contact today with somebody um I'm really excited about and I love the conversations and the silliness and all of that um and I don't like the pushiness like the the

I've been on Instagram and I have been told in the last day, you're doing this wrong. You're doing this wrong. This is the reason why this is failing. This is the, like all of that kind of really pushy marketing. Yeah. Advertising. Yeah. I really hate it. I really, really hate it. And I,

Yeah, it was interesting. I noticed that I'm not on threads that often, but I did get a threads message that was like, your threads account has been notified for posting copyright infringement. I mean, one of those spammy things that you'll get through Facebook, that's on threads now. It's like, why does everything have to get effed up? Why don't, you know, because I don't think that's what any of us want. No. So, yeah.

I don't know. It was just interesting. Like, where is my resistance to things? And it's my responsibility to keep that boundary about how I want to use it, what I want to get sucked in by. So do you feel when you brought up Instagram in the context of creativity, like, did it feel like you'd made all the space and then you went like headfirst into hell again? Yeah. Yeah. So if you'd just not gone on Instagram...

Would that space have continued? I think the space did continue. I'm just, I think, again, it's just being more conscious of how I'm using it. And I think often, you see, I go to the stories first on Instagram. Yeah, I do, actually. Yeah. And I still love stories. I like watching other people's stories. I like interacting with people on stories. I like making them. They feel light. And I think that's important.

I like them because they come and go. Because I've been having this thing of going up and down to Cumbria on the building. It's kind of settled into a routine now because my

builder's son goes to college up here three days a week. So we've been there four days a week and I've been going with them because I just find I'm more useful helping when they're there than I am trying to get things done on my own. And then I've been coming back and doing family things back up here while they need to be here. So it's settled into this routine, which is working quite well. But when I'm there,

I'm so much more relaxed. I'm so much more. And that's really the place where the stress should be, right? Because that's where the bills are going. I'm buying things. There's problems. The renovation stopped on the studio because the stream is a problem and we had to get a digger and fix the stream when we had a flood and we had a power cut. It should have been, you know,

more stressful, but actually it's so surrounded by peace and quiet and nature.

And also there's a clarity. There's a clarity in direction. Like when you're there, you're focused on that one project. And this is where it comes back to this idea of capacity. It's like you've got the capacity for dealing with it because that's all you have to be thinking about while you're there. Well, kind of. Oh, shit, I've just spilled tea all over myself. I didn't know my tea was there. Kind of. However, I was doing the launch of the course and the free course and doing all my teaching at the same time.

I don't know, but what it made me think is, why am I so relaxed about this? The studio was coming along really well and then suddenly it ground to a halt because the local farmer's upset about the stream and it's damaging his land and the previous owner never dealt with it. And I don't want to fall out with people, so blah, blah, blah.

So everything stopped, but I was so, maybe it was because it was a sunny day and everything was beautiful and they were sunny weekend and I just sat in the garden, but the course launch went easier than I thought. Everything was more relaxed. And I feel for me, it's because I've got more physical space around me. The more physical space I have around me, the more relaxed I am. It's like other people's energies are,

get in my way of my creativity. And I didn't realize it until I was up there. And this is probably sounding nuts, I realize that. But like today, my neighbor next door, because I'm back at home, he's power washing, he's got someone valeting his car, and then he's been streaming. And it's just a constant. And people coming in and out with cars, because they're like five houses here. We're in the countryside, but there's five houses together.

And I'm just like, oh, all these people go away. It's that when there's just trees and birds and me, then I've got space. And I honestly, I've been so creative this last few weeks, just the ideas that are coming and the painting that I'm doing. So I've been thinking about it in that sense, not in so much as time. Maybe it is time, but it's giving myself space to

to just be quiet, I suppose, and slower. You know how fast I usually go. I think this is the thing. It's the slower. It's the expectation of the speed. And I know you all often talk about this, you know, race to results. What do you say? Rush to results. Yeah, even though I'm the worst for rushing to results. Hypocrite. You know...

we learn something if it's top of mind for us it's prevalent it's something that we're working on i'm not sure if that necessarily makes it hypocritical but i think it's like we're working on this hub redesign and i wanted to have it already by the end of september and it's not it's not it's not going to be and there would have been a time where i would have worked super hard on that i would have stayed up all day i would have rushed it i would have said i've told everybody therefore i'm going to do it it's going to take the time it's going to take

And I'm enjoying the process. So I'm not rushing it. I'm enjoying what it's surfacing. Like you say, I'm enjoying that actually it's giving me new ideas for things. Um,

And that feels quite different for me. And, you know, there are perhaps lots of things. And I think this is hopefully valuable for people like this time of year, September, back to school. I think that lives within us from even when we were at school, even if you don't have children, we've all done it. That's the school year.

And there's a little bit of a looping back to what I said I'd do this year back in January. No, it hasn't happened yet. Now there's only four months left of the year. A, which is completely arbitrary anyway. So can we just drop that? But also just relaxing the edges around it a little bit. If it hasn't happened, was there a reason for it? That's OK. Maybe it does need to take longer than you allowed for it. Maybe that's the important thing to learn.

Yeah, that is what I'm feeling about this project is I used to have this feeling, I'm sure I've said it on the podcast years ago, that, yeah, but if you don't keep going and working, you won't achieve enough before you die. Like you leave things undone. And the older I get, the more I realize that's true no matter what stage you die at. You will always leave things undone. Just like we say,

Why are you rushing to finish a painting? Why are you rushing to finish your life? Because you'll never be finished. You'll never be finished with your art. You'll never be finished with your life. You want one day at 88 go, you know what? Bye, Jo. I think I've done everything I wanted to do and now it's time to die. I think I'll just lie down and that's not how it works. You have something that you're still thinking about. And when I went to my friend's funeral a few weeks ago,

nobody talked about how many projects he'd got done in his life nobody talked about how much he'd achieved that wasn't what we were talking about so I've had this kind of change of heart about that and I'm much more able to enjoy the day that's just happening as opposed to rushing well I didn't achieve anything on that day I only got one thing done that's not very productive and

When did, where did I pick up, speaking of limiting beliefs, where did I pick up the idea that the only value a life has in how productive it is and how many things you get done? I don't know, but somewhere, because I wasn't born thinking that. No, I know where I got it from. Where did you get it from? I got it from school and my dad. Right. Absolutely, without a doubt. Even now. But, you know, what's she doing that for? When's that going to be? Yeah. No, not, not.

he doesn't mean it judgmentally but that's what he grew up with that's how he values things it's it's his point of clarity and like safety you know is what are you working towards when will it be finished that's how he his point of relating to things um and again there were times you know i think

without a doubt growing up, that's what I was recognized for was for achieving things, for getting on and doing them on my own. Well done being self-sufficient. That's definitely a thing. As you're talking, I'm thinking, you know what? I think it's the opposite in my case because my family, they're not particularly achievement driven. My mom and dad, you know, they, neither of them were. And I,

They didn't push for anything. I don't remember them even really paying attention to my school reports very much. I mean, they looked at them, but I don't remember it being a big deal. It said, oh Louise, try harder. It says you're not trying hard enough. But I think somehow I always felt out of place as a child. I always felt like I didn't quite belong anywhere. And the thing I was able to do to feel better was to achieve things, be better than everyone else at something, do something better.

know more about a subject than everyone else or, you know, just not school really, because I didn't try at school, but everything else, like be the best at climbing trees, be the fastest on my bike, be the best at football or whatever it is I wanted to do. And it was a way of me proving myself worthwhile, I think. So in life, it's the same thing. If I'm going to get a job, I'm going to do it faster and better than everyone else. So you will see that I am worth keeping on.

And lately I've not been feeling the need to do that as much. So maybe that's where the change is. So how does this come back to our creative life then? Sorry, go on. I was going to say, if there is a relaxing at the moment, which is enjoyable, and I also know that there will be times where

as I said before, I like deadlines. I need to give myself a little bit of pressure. I enjoy that element of it too. Just working with that concept of time and giving yourself enough time. There's like just giving yourself enough time in the week. And I think this is, this is the thing that I really wanted to say is that I'm thinking about some of the projects or the things that I've done in life that

taken years, years to do. And like you say, they're not even complete yet. And then it's just, it's just building on experience. And I just wonder how often we start new projects without, Oh, I'm going to do this and then get to the end of it. And that we know, we know for a while, that's never the way it really works. I think, I think I said to you when I got this property that it was going to be lessened for me in that, in slowness.

I have managed to find a decorator that is the first service person I've managed to find in the area who had time to come and do something, but it's really hard to find people. And because I've only got two builders working on it, you know, it's slow and having to be okay with that. And what I noticed was really unusual for me. We got an electrician out. That's the other thing we found, we found an electrician.

to discuss whether he wanted to wire the studio before insulation went in or after and all of that he was talking to Andy and he's going around the building he was asking me where I want plugs and when I started saying where I might want plugs I was like oh I'm really enjoying this bit I'm enjoying this bit because there's no plugs yet and I can imagine it all if I'm rushing oh when

oh, when are we going to get the electrics in? And then when are you going to do that? And how can we get some extra help in here so we can be faster? Then I'm not enjoying the bit where I'm enjoying imagining. It was really nice. And it's that enjoying the moment that, yes, the bathroom got decorated. Now the decorator has to go away for three weeks to do someone else's. But he's coming back one day and then I've done this piece of furniture and restored that or found a piece of furniture for that. But it's a mountain if you look at the whole thing.

Because I've also got a conversion of a stables to do after this into an annex. It's a mountain. But if I just can enjoy the moments of it, even if I never got to the end of it, I would have enjoyed all the days of it instead of worrying and fretting and panicking that it's not getting done. And that is usually the gap where the frustration, the fretting comes in, isn't it? I think that's it's that gap.

hurry to get things complete rather than enjoying the stage you're in and the anticipation part and the completion part you know which is what you said about your hub like if you were if you were pushing now to get it done yeah it would be a point of stress rather than a point of enjoyment you and everyone else involved with it yeah so it might be a point of frustration for some of the other people involved yeah like where she can pull a finger out and get it

And I don't mean it to sound, I mean, I am not very good still at not doing a lot, you know, at slowing down. I'm still cramming a lot in.

And I'm still working on that because I do seem to be able to fill the gaps of any day with another task or, you know, any time with something else I could do. Yeah, but are they tasks that you're enjoying? I mean, this this is the thing, really. It's like, you know, at the moment I've got three books on the go that I'm reading right now. We've got this we're doing this garden sorting out. I'm going away now.

at the weekend to a festival, which I had to pack for three days before we left. Like there's lots of things going on. It's not like I'm drifting around, not doing anything, but they're all things that I've actively chosen and I've decided I'm going to

enjoy them and and maybe maybe it's simply because I feel like I finally reached that stage where you know the children are a bit more independent and you know there is more time and I'm like damn well gonna take it yeah I already had all that time so that wasn't my issue

But it's whatever it is, whether it's children or a lot of people have got family and parents and all of that stuff's going on. But I think that makes it even more important. You know, it's just just interesting, this whole thing about what permission do we need to take the time? And I see I think we see it so often and because it's true for ourselves that.

It's not actually being given permission from other people. It's giving yourself permission to take it for yourself. Nobody else minds. Or if they do, then you need to rethink some things. Because I often get that in the course where

it's particularly women but that's mainly because we have women as students i do have male students but not as many and the women will say oh well i always do the dinner i always do this thing but i've i've mentioned it to the family and it happens every year where people will say and they've said they'll make dinner and they and they turn out to be people with grown kids living at home and they're still making everyone's meal

And other people in most situations, like you said, happy to help and step in and help and give them space. But they've not given themselves the space. And I think it goes back to that thing of if I'm not the cook and I'm not the one who feeds you all, what is my value?

Like if I'm not doing that, you've got to let go of that. And for some people that's difficult. I know it was for me. Like I was very much when I was younger, when I first got married, I was very much like, well, you could have a go at cooking, but you know, you won't do it as well as me. Let me. Okay. Just no, no, no. Don't do it. Tell you what you go sit down and I'll do this because I'm good at it. We make a rod for our own back in that. Yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah.

But when you come and do it, maybe there's a part of that which is not just... We as women, we like to make ourselves out to be saints and angels and we do all this because we love everyone. But there's also a part of it in a lot of us which is, no, this is my territory and this is what I'm good at. You go away and let me do it. But then a few years later, you're like, oh no, why did I do that? Because now I've got no space and time.

And it's not just housework. It's all sorts of things. It's whatever you've taken on in life. It's whoever else you've taken on to care for. And maybe you help your neighbors. Maybe you've got aging parents, all of that stuff. And if you're a parent, I think these days as a parent, you're expected to do so much more than our parents were for us. So what does that mean for creativity? Yeah.

I think we're saying what we've been saying on a few different episodes. It's this thing about, it's not like, I don't think we're saying sit back, relax, work less, earn less, it's all going to be fine. No. I think we're saying the less you rush and panic and push and try, maybe things still work out without all that. I think what I'm saying is,

How important it is to be conscious of what your creativity gives you as a balance to life that does seem to be speeding up, being pushy. Like I had the other day, I had to go in, I had to deal with a banking thing, the cash point machine, I'd put all the code in.

to take my cash out and then it just said, oops, there was an error. And then I went into the bank and they said, log onto the app and see if it's taking it out. And then I blocked myself out of the app and then I had to go home and call. I was like, jeepers creepers, all I wanted to do was take some cash out of the app.

I'm just probably like, it just felt like there is a lot that is complicated and, and stress. And, you know, even telling that story, I'm speaking faster and talking quicker. It takes me, Oh, that kind of like, Oh, frustration with all of those things. Oh, there's another email from school. Oh, there's a thing I've got to do. Oh, now I've got an HMRC audit. Oh, there's all those things. And actually what we've got when we choose to use it is the

using our creativity to making sure that we don't turn that into something else that becomes a source of stress. I tell you where I see that on top of that is people who take the world's problems on top of that and make personal stress from it. And that is not to, I'm sure I'll get people annoyed with me. It's not to say you shouldn't care about what's happening in the world, or it's not frightening what's happening in some parts of the world and

keep not saying anything that could be offensive to anyone in any other countries. However,

Phil used to do this thing where he used to come down in the morning when we lived in America and rant at me about what the government had done that day. And I'd be like getting my breakfast and he'd be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I go, can you like, I can't do anything about it. Not at this moment. And if you're not going to run for office or you're not going to go on a march,

can you just not read it? Because it's not doing any good and it just makes me upset and cross and I don't want to hear it. But that is happening to us in the media, on the news, in the newspapers, every minute of every day, even if your spouse isn't yelling at you, there's other stuff coming in at you. And when you put all that on top of the bank machine going wrong and the thing from school and the you haven't paid your taxes thing and the whatever else you've got and you forgot to pay your electric bill and whatever,

All of that, it gets a lot. And how can we expect if we're taking on all that to then have mental space for creativity? So you have to give yourself. I said this ages ago, but I stopped reading the news in the way I used to read it. I used to read it with my breakfast every morning. What a horrible way to start the day. Just like punch myself in the face several times and try and have a nice day.

But I think like you say that sometimes people say to you, oh, it's, you know, it's not a choice. You've got to do it and you've got to be aware of all of that stuff. Yeah, fine. But that is also a choice, isn't it? How you do it when you do these things and not saying it's easy, but just this letting things take the time they take and not having to fix everything super quickly. Anyway, that's all I'm working with at the moment.

You can't fix and not having to fix everything because you can't fix everything. No, can't fix most things probably. Do you have anything that's inspired you? She said scrolling to see if I could find the thing I wanted to share with you. Well, I've written something, but I think we've already talked about it, about non-pushy spaces. So instead, if anybody hasn't watched Chaos, K-A-O-S on Netflix, it's

I would recommend that. We started watching the first one and I thought it was going to be a really kind of like slightly naff, like my husband found it, I don't know, just a bit cheesy. It is about the Greek gods but set in modern day Crete with modern characters. Yeah, and it's...

I think it's a really lovely example of where somebody clearly had like quite a fun, creative idea. How can we make this work? And they've really pulled it off. And, um,

I am going to admit that I didn't pay attention to the first episode and fell asleep a bit in the third episode, not because it was boring, but just because we were watching it quite late at night. And I want to go back and watch it all again from the beginning with my crib sheet of Greek gods and myths and legends alongside. And I did have to do a bit of surreptitious Googling as we were going, but just checking that my memory of all the stories was right. But yeah, I found it really enjoyable. So I would recommend that.

Well, I can't find the thing I was going to recommend, so I'll save that till next week. However, speaking of enjoyable, I'd like to recommend a TV show which is not enjoyable at all, but really brilliant, which is The Bear on Disney+. It's not enjoyable, it's traumatic. It's half an hour of trauma every time you turn it on. The chef one, right? Yeah, and the trauma just escalates.

But it is the most beautifully filmed TV show I've ever seen. And creative, different. You are quite late to the party on this. Oh, I know. I'm saying because it's season three has just started.

So when I recommended season three of Ted Lasso, I got all sorts of messages from people saying, I've never even seen this, but I love it now. And they're watching episode one of season one. So the bear is now, yes, I'm on season three now. I only just found out because I was among the trees. I only just found out that season three had come and I was like, oh my God, brilliant. But I just think it's so incredible. And I'm going to go back and watch it all from the beginning again. Yeah.

Because I don't think I've ever seen writing like this, filming like this. And it's the creativity of it that I love that apart from the stories, which are great, but how did someone get that made and persuade them that, yeah, I know it sounds really, I mean, the first episode of season three has no story.

And no dialogue makes no sense. It's just music playing and little snippets of things happening, but it makes sense if you've watched season one and two and you can kind of piece it together.

I think we're saying what's what's interesting and ties all of this together is both of those two things, despite what you would imagine would be a lot of television committee bureaucracy. And I'm sure there is a huge heap of that that gets in the way. What we've enjoyed about both of those two things is the fact that they are something different.

that clearly must have taken drive and bravery and quite a lot to push through. And it's lovely to see those kind of things out there. It's lovely to see them come to fruition. And I think if we relate that back to the conversation we've been having about letting things take time, letting things evolve, and also knowing that in order to do something that is really going to

land with people that is going to feel brave, that is going to feel different, that is going to be maybe you pushing your creative edges, the creative envelope of what you do. You can't be doing it from a place of being frantic and hurried all the time. That's why making time and space and letting things take the time is so important.

Yeah, because it's never going to come from a place where you're like frantically working through a to do list. That's not where the best things come from. Yeah. Imagine the writer of The Bear going, right, write 10 episodes of The Bear this morning. Get it done on his to do list. And then like, oh, God, I only got five episodes written today. Must get do more tomorrow. No, it would have taken absolutely ages to do that. No, it's just lovely to see. And I don't know, maybe that's the question to end on.

You know, if there was something that you wanted to do that you've been putting off because you feel like you don't have the time for it.

looking at the things that you are giving your time to and um it's just interesting what we can make happen when we want to when we do have our priorities challenged a little bit I think whether that is you know from from something that is challenging or actually it doesn't have to be we don't have to wait for a challenge to come before we do something a little bit more proactively um

personal story there that's triggering those thoughts but i won't go into that because all right i think that's it for us this week we'll see you next time bye so i feel like that was a really good discussion but it also could have been utter nonsense totally pointless because i was really involved in it with you and i don't know if it taught me about carmen red versus cadmium

Is that what someone wants to talk about? I don't know. Maybe that is what people want us to talk about. I don't know. We could talk about, we could have a conversation next week about career van logistics. Yeah, I've got an idea. If you want to talk about carbon red versus cadmium red, start your own podcast about colours. You can talk about whatever you want.

If you do have anything, seriously, that you would like us to talk about, because we've been kind of just catching up now and having this discussion, and we often do that, we just get into a conversation, and it's interesting to us, but it's usually interesting to us when we're speaking. You might be listening, thinking, that's not very... They won't be listening anymore, will they? If you are still listening, and there is something that you would like us to speak about, do let us know.

Or someone. I mean, I have got a couple of people who I want to invite on. Like I say, I just haven't been very good at looking at my diary and organising it out. To have other conversations with it, it takes a little bit more scheduling from us to do that.

But definitely, I see that as one of the benefits of having this as a way of making connections and allowing people to discover new voices and new viewpoints and conversations and things to do. So that's something. Send all those suggestions to Alice because she likes doing those and I really don't like it. Then I'll put them in a spreadsheet that Louise will never look at. Yeah.