To Teach or Not to Teach [268]
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Hi and welcome to Art Juice. This is honest, generous and humorous conversations to feed your creative soul and get you thinking with me, Louise Fletcher. And me, Alice Sheridan. And I'm on my third attempt at starting this podcast, so I'm not going to ramble. I'll introduce what the main topic is when we get to it. First of all, what have you been up to this week, Alice? Ah,

It's been another nice, gentle week. Like I said previously, I've got various admin-y things going on, working behind the scenes, which I'm actually enjoying a very different pace of. And I think that's going to come into our discussion with what we're going to be talking about further on this week. This kind of how you work with different things going on in your life. And in the past, I have...

often been in a state where I have been if I've been doing one thing I've been feeling guilty about not doing something else which is something that I think I should be doing so right now I'm in a space where I am not working creatively I do want to get back to it next week but for the last few weeks I haven't been and previously I would have felt guilty there would be a whole load of shoulds who am I if I'm not even doing it on a regular basis and

And I'm not feeling any of that at the moment. I'm just enjoying what I've been working on and letting it take the time it's going to take. So I've been doing things that I don't need to share with you. I have been also looking after parents. And yesterday I went to an all day business event run by somebody totally unconnected and it was close by to me. And I like doing those kind of things because they stimulate me in different ways.

So that is what I have been doing this week. Oh, busy, busy, busy, busy. Although it doesn't feel busy, it's felt very gentle and I've enjoyed that. That's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah, it's nice. Have you been to your exhibition? Have you been and looked at the exhibition in person yet? No, because it opened when I was away on holiday. Yeah.

And so I haven't been yet. And I was discussing with the gallery owner and she said if we do, she was a bit concerned about doing an artist talk that it would be too condensed. So what we've agreed on is a day next weekend. So that's Saturday, the 19th of October from 11 to 3pm. I will be there tomorrow.

all that day for people to drop in, see, have conversations. I've had some lovely feedbacks and comments from people who've been in and seen the work in person. But if you want to be there at a time, I'm there and you can get to Newnham on 7, which is a lovely, I've not been yet, but it sounds a lovely village in kind of Gloucestershire, Cotswolds area. Then you can come and meet me there. And if you live up north in London, you can come and see me at Manchester Art Fair later in November.

And what day again is it that you're going to be there? It'll be Saturday the 19th of October from 11 to 3pm. The gallery owner has just said that if you'd like to come along, can you just drop a message either through Instagram or not an official RSVP, but just so that she can get an idea of numbers. But if you haven't done that and you wake up on Saturday morning and think, oh, that would be fun to do.

Don't let not replying put you off turning up, if that makes sense. But I'm looking forward to it because it feels, I've spoken about this in the last kind of couple of times I've mentioned these. This is so different for me, completing the work and then it being somewhere else and not having that connection to it. So I am really looking forward, really looking forward to going into that space, seeing them after a period of time,

And seeing what they look like, what I get to learn from them, what I see having had that distance from having worked on them. I'm really excited about that. So, yeah. Yeah. What about you? What about me? What have I been doing? Have you been factoring?

I haven't tractored. There has been tractorage. I haven't tractored, but my fields are looking a lot better. There's a lot of work going on here. I'm in Cumbria at the moment, so the studio is coming along. It's almost ready for insulation. I'm just arranging things like plasterers and electricians and that kind of thing now to get to the next stage. Everybody, if you're listening for the first time...

Welcome to the leading art podcast where we talk about installation and... What is that Clarkson's farm? This is Fletcher's farm. If you are listening for the first time, this property I'm talking about is art related or it will be a big workshop space, but at the moment it's not.

And it leaves me nowhere where I am to paint. It's ridiculous because it's a big house, lots of outbuildings, all of which are dark and some of which are damp, cold weather outside.

really nowhere to work and what I've just worked out is a way to do some smaller pieces on the kitchen table and the other thing that's been happening because of that is I've been experimenting with watercolors and gouache because they're easier to transport and even less messy and etc etc oh my god I forgot how bad I am at watercolors it's like oh how much I have to learn

I can't make watercolor or gouache do what I want them to do yet. And so it's a bit of a lesson for me in patience and patience

a bit of an experience of how some of my students are feeling. Yeah. They try and make something that's in their head, but in reality, it doesn't, that doesn't happen when they try and do it. Yeah. That's what I've been up to. Okay. Anyway, we're going to have a discussion about teaching. Do you want to read us the question that came in and we'll see what comes up? Yeah. So we got a question from Cherry, which came in by email. Thanks, Cherry.

Cherry said, how does teaching affect your personal art or vice versa? And she's asking both of us this question. Teaching is about giving and personal work is about feeding yourself and can often be quite selfish. However, having to explain something to someone else can make you more conscious of what you want.

I'd just be interested to know how you and Alice feel that your teaching roles affect your own work or how creating your own work helps your teaching. Is one role more important to you than the other? So there's quite a few questions in there and we can always revisit it if we get off track. But we both made teaching a big part of our life in different ways, but same challenges, I'm sure. Yeah.

And we've talked before a little bit between ourselves, but not that much about how it affects us. And I know you had a business coach who was quite strong. I remember you saying was quite strongly against you even doing that because, well, tell us what she said and why. Yeah. And the timing of this is interesting because I actually found out this week, we were last in touch in July, but found out this week that

um, that she died very recently last week, quite suddenly. And, um, we were in touch as a, she was in touch and I worked with her as a business coach for a long time. I came across her and I just knew I just wanted more of her attitude in my life and that it was going to be very helpful to have somebody outside of home and people that I knew, um,

to reflect back to me and have a place to discuss ideas. And I think this is what teaching does, because she was very strident in her ideas. She was a great challenger. She was an amazing encourager. And we didn't always agree. And she said, when I had the idea for the membership...

Well, I first went to her with another business idea and she just said point blank, well, that's not a business. That won't be an idea at all. And I was like, yeah, but I really like it. There would be things about that that would be really fun.

And what's interesting is that the things that were about that idea that would have been really fun, I've now pulled into the way I work in the membership. So there is always a different way through if you look at the different angles of it. But no, she didn't want me to start the membership because she said, this is going to distract you from your own path and your own creativity. And

And she said, if you can commit yourself fully to your art, like think where that is going to take you. And people whose art has really elevated, they are committed to it wholeheartedly. And I think that's true. I think if we look at people who we would all recognise as big name artists,

they are all in. And although I hate the expression 110%, you know, they are all in, you know. And without a doubt, having something else going on dilutes your attention on your own work. And it also feeds me in a really different way. I don't have an official diagnosis, but I highly suspect that along with a lot of creatives,

even if I don't have ADHD, I look at I have a hell of a lot of ADHD traits. And one of those is, you know, not wanting to feel constrained, like having the ability to do different things and jump from different things, get quite obsessed with something, then just leave it and work on something else. I think a lot of the things that

I do particularly well. I do because I have set out to create a life where I have that flexibility because that's how I need to operate. I mean, I haven't worked in a workplace now for 25 years. Yeah. I would drive you fucking insane. You know, the last time for me. Yeah. So creating things.

All of which to say that teaching or some element of teaching, connecting with other people in a way that suits me, really suits me. I really, really enjoy it. I find it very rewarding. But I do think you have to do it about something that you're passionate about. And for me, that was this sense of,

Being able to gather together and share ideas and information to give people the resources and the belief and the ability that they can go out and do whatever they want with their creative practice. Like it doesn't have to fit a system. It doesn't have to be huge. It doesn't have to be massive. You don't have to do it with galleries. You can do it whatever way you like. That I still feel super passionate about, super passionate about.

But I don't teach people how to make art. We can come back to that. Speaking about the passion at heart, that is for me, my passion became helping women in particular, although I do get men in my courses, but in particular women to fully express their own voice.

in their lives but using art as the mechanism to make that happen and that's because that's what I had done that's because the transformation in me from doing that in the way I am in my life I can't even begin to describe how different I am from what I was eight years ago

And so because of that, I'm really driven to teach it. But I'm always being asked because I am good at business and I'm always being asked by people, will you teach a business course for artists? No, I don't want to. I have zero passion for it, zero interest, even though I like doing marketing myself and I don't want to teach other people it.

And it's quite tempting when people are saying to you, especially at the beginning, people were saying to me, we'll give you money if you'll show us this thing. But I knew it wouldn't work. I have to be just like you are in your membership. It has to be 100% integrated with who you are and what you get excited about. And I get really, really excited when someone in the course says,

I don't make dinner every night anymore for my family. Some nights they make it for themselves because I've told them I'm busy. Something like that just makes me ridiculously happy because these women are coming out of a

like a societal stupor that they've been in and choosing to make dinner when they want to make dinner and not making it when they don't want to and that kind of thing. So I think that passion for it is so important. If you're going to really enjoy it, you can teach a watercolour class in the village hall and not be passionate about it, but you will feel crappy every time you have to go if you don't love what you're talking about, I think.

We're not just dissing watercolor, by the way. If you love it, if you love it, like Jeanette Phillips, who I had on my art tribe once talking about watercolor, she's so passionate about it and she's so brilliant at it. And then, of course, that's what she teaches. But I'm just saying you could do that. Most of us could do that or some other medium. You could go down and teach something to people, but it only works for you when you really love it. And you get more students when you really love it.

Yes. And I also wonder if like we've both talked about things that are bigger than art. And I think that's one of the powers of art, actually, is that it reaches much, much bigger than the whatever it is that you're physically creating. But just to go back to this question, what was her specific question about art?

Well, I wanted... How to affect our own work. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you, going back to what Judith said, your coach. Yeah. So was she... She wasn't right in one sense because you've loved it and it feeds you. Yeah. But was she right in any sense? Because, and the reason I ask you that is to answer Cherry's question, every year I wrestle with myself over...

Shouldn't I just give up all this teaching and focus on my own artwork? You do. Yeah, I do. Because I do agree with Judith that the best artists put everything into it. And I don't have the time to put everything into it. Yes. And then if I imagine a life without the teaching side of it,

In all honesty, I'm not 100% sure that I would be making more art. I think I would be doing more other things. I think I would be doing more things that I did previously, like craft around the house, making curtains, going to exhibitions, seeing friends, going on holiday, like...

travel, having detours where I just went around the country and that yes, there might be sketchbook and creative work involved in that. Do I think I would be doing more hours in my studio? In all honesty?

No, because one of the things that prompted me to create that was when I was in that set of, OK, I want to be an artist. I need to take this seriously. I need to be doing more hours in my studio. It was very isolating. What I enjoy now or what I've noticed now is that like I have and it's not just me. I think, you know, naturally, I think I am more of an extrovert person than you are. And I agree.

I gain a lot from being in the company of others. I find it inspiring. It sparks ideas. I enjoy it. But what has shifted now is that I appreciate the times where I'm in the studio and it is just me and my work. And that's why I don't record demos or video me painting or think about getting the camera set up.

or even anymore try to articulate for anybody else what it is I'm trying to do. That time when it's just me in the studio is quite precious to me because it is a little bit more limited in my life. And I think because I have relaxed into this idea that it doesn't have to be for anybody else, that it's just for me. And so that's a very, it's,

But I'm not sure that I would necessarily be doing more of it. And I can't 100% answer that question truthfully. I don't know. Maybe I would.

maybe I would. Yeah, I think we've talked about before how for me to answer Cherry's question, whereas for you, you need that separation between the two. I'm learning more and more that I do a lot of my best work as in some way related to my teaching. So I might be demonstrating an idea and start a painting and film that start. And then that might set off a whole series of work.

Um, so there's something about the act of talking out loud about what I'm doing to a camera. I mean, if everyone was in the room, God, that would freeze me completely, but they're not there. So it's just me and my phone. It's something about that does actually spur my creativity. And I would be the reason I always,

go back to, no, I'm not going to give up the class and just do that for a year. It's because I'm worried I won't actually have any ideas. I'd have to talk to imaginary friends before I could actually spark my idea process. I don't know if that's true either, but that is the fear that I've got in the back of my mind.

I make more art. Normally, I make more art when I'm teaching. It's not been that way this year because a lot of the time I haven't got anywhere to work. I'm hoping I've fixed that problem now, but I haven't had anywhere to work. So it hasn't worked quite the same way. But generally, the 12 weeks of Find Your Joy, I'm generally painting when I'm not teaching and not getting distracted on other things. So for me, I do think the teaching feeds it and I would be frightened...

for a different reason than you that I wouldn't spend as much time painting because I think well maybe I'd just sit there going I don't know what to do and also I have quite a short attention span so two hours in the studio is good for me four hours I start to make a mess of everything six hours it's just a disaster and I leave feeling worse than when I went in so I

having that something else to flick to on the downside though is let's talk about something else it's not just the teaching it's all the things that come with the teaching oh yeah admin

um people asking questions emails messages it with it with memberships people coming and going and having to sort all that out marketing campaigns to get new people whether you're doing a local workshop or you're doing an online course you've got to get people to it and think how to do that relations with say you're doing in-person classes maybe you use the village hall and you have to deal with whoever manages the village hall and all that and

And interpersonal problems like people complaining about what you did or maybe two people in your watercolour class are fighting with each other and not speaking anymore or someone's upset because she chose their painting to talk about and not theirs. Or when you're on your own in your studio, you don't have any of that. And we still have to market our painting. So we've still got that side of it. But now we've got two sets of business and two sets of admin. Yeah.

And I sometimes wish I could drop all that as well. So it's not the teaching part is lovely. Some parts of it I struggle with. Struggle with answering questions. And that's a human design thing for me. I know now. I struggle. I do it, but I struggle with it.

um I'd rather just teach you and you just go learn I don't don't really like answering questions you see that's that you see and that is fascinating and uh for those of you who haven't heard human design is a is a is a free thing just google get my free human design chart and something will pop up you don't have to pay for it um but the fact that you you struggle with questions I I

spring from questions. So I like we did something in the membership this week that was a lot less formal work review. It was people just showed up with their paintings and we had questions and discussions around it.

And I love that it felt relaxed. It felt informal. It felt easy. It felt intuitive and responsive on the spot. It felt like we had discussions about things that otherwise wouldn't necessarily get mentioned. And I know from the messages that have come in to me personally and on the comment afterwards that people enjoyed that kind of way of doing it. And I think

That that is what teaching can do is that in whatever context it is, basically, you're opening up a space where whether it's teaching or just the idea of showing or sharing, it's these little kind of learning sparks of ideas that go off.

when essentially you're exposed to a different way of thinking of something that's outside you. And I think art is like this. I don't think art exists in isolation. It's always either in response to others, in response to the world, or in response to something that's going on within you. And then I think in the sharing of it and discussing it, you get all of those things back again. And I think what comes from any kind of

I was going to say grouped learning, but it's not necessarily. It can be learning that you do on your own from books. I mean, there are so many different ways to get ideas for your art and get that spark coming back in. But in terms of what teaching gives you, for me, it gives me that space where I know I'm in a space

online container group discussion with people who are all

equally interested, committed, curious, questioning. Yes. That's a really nice place to be. It is. And I want to clarify something because I realize when I say I don't like questions, it's not quite that simple. I love good questions that enable me to teach more. Yeah. So if you ask me a question and I think, oh, that's a way in to share something with you. I love that. That really gets me excited. Yeah.

I'm bad as a manifester at routine questions. And so I've had to set up in my teaching business a support team of people who can do the routine questions because I'm

It's just not very, I'm not very good at it. So a routine question being something that's been asked 15 times already and will be asked 15 times more. And also all the basic access questions that you get when you run a course or how do I do this? How do I do that? I'm so excited by the learning that I, or I get in my life as well. I get impatient with questions that

to me feel obvious. Like we've already, you know, we're way past that now. It's not a strength or something I'm proud of. It's just in my nature. So I have to manage that and work my way around it because people are paying for something. They totally deserve an answer to whatever they want to ask.

But as teachers, this is the part... I could challenge you on that. I could so challenge you on that. What, that they deserve an answer? People are paying for something, so they deserve an answer to every question they ask. Do they? Well, no. Can they not use Google? Yes, sorry. Can they not make a decision? If it relates to what you've promised them, if it relates to what you've promised them, I think they deserve an answer. So if I've taken a course on how to do something,

Okay, but if it's a question... If it's something really important, then it's gone. If it's a question that has been asked 15 times beforehand... Yeah, but maybe you weren't there when it was asked the 14th. Okay, in that case then, does it not exist somewhere in an FAQ, easy self-resource place that they can go and find the answer to it? Probably. Because I think that if you've done that, if you've set that up for them...

Then it's on them to go and find the answer to the question. Otherwise, they're just waiting for you to do all the work. If you have given the answer, you don't have to spend all your precious time answering it 15 times over. Interesting. I don't know if I agree with you.

Because I know there have been situations in the past, and I can't think of an example, but say where I've done someone's course or experience and I've asked a question which clearly from their answer I should have been able to find the answer, except I'm busy, I didn't know, I missed it, you know, I just didn't see that email or whatever. But anyway, we're off on a slight tangent as to whether people... I think what I wanted to say, though, was...

The reason the questions thing is important is questions, it sounds like feed us both in different ways, different types of questions feed us. When you're teaching, in order for it not to drain away from your own creativity, I think you do have to be really aware of...

is this feeding me in the way I'm doing it? And if it's not, is there a way it can feed me? So I'm thinking of someone in particular, and I won't mention names because I haven't asked, but I'm thinking of someone who made an online course, but did not want to answer any questions, did not want any interaction, did not want a Facebook group, wanted to focus on painting.

And let the cost bring some money in. And so that person hired someone to manage all that for her and then just paint. And that's a totally valid thing to do. It might not bring in as much money as something where you're fully engaged in it.

But if that is what you, you need it not to be a drain. And for us, it's not because it sounds like for both of us, it feeds us in our practices. But for that person, it doesn't. And so they find a different way to do it. There is a, I do think it takes something away. But the other thing I came across yesterday after I sent you that message was a quote from Tracy Emin. And I can't find it again. I think I saw it on Instagram. Yeah.

And I'll butcher it, but basically what she said is, I did not want to be a mediocre YBA. I did not want to die as a mediocre YBA and that be my only legacy. So I'm setting up this art school and teaching because I want to feed the next generation of artists. And I thought that was interesting. First of all, I can't imagine she would be thought of as a mediocre YBA, but those were her words.

But she's seeing the teaching part now as more important part of her legacy than the actual making of art. Whereas I tend to feel a little bit like, shouldn't I be fully focused on that if I'm an artist? Yeah. She was for many years, but now she's decided that's not enough. Yeah. It's just different shifts, isn't it? And without a doubt...

teaching can help you clarify all sorts of things like whatever drives you to do whatever you choose that you want to share in whatever format you choose to do it is going to reflect back how you operate what suits you what you're interested in and all of that stuff is super helpful um

I don't think it directly feeds my practice, but I do think it feeds all the other things that perhaps we need as artists, like problem solving, seeing things differently. But even the structural setup of it or preparing for it or thinking about what you're going to do or...

You know, dealing with uncomfortable situations even, for example, that might come around as a result of teaching. Like if you're teaching in person and say you've got a workshop and somebody turns up and, you know, they're a bit grumpy and they're a bit non-engaged.

How do you feel that? How does that affect you as a person? How do you deal with that? How do you draw them out of themselves? Do you take that on you? Like all of those kind of things that come with teaching or anything that you do in life, that's going to have parts that are challenging. I think that's what feeds back into your art. And that's why I'm like, I love it.

showing your work and standing alongside it is challenging and it's scary and it feeds back into your practice and teaching is time consuming and I think you've got to I think what you've got to square is is what I get back from this worthwhile enough for me to spend some of my time and energy on it that's what it comes down to isn't it in whatever form that is yeah yeah

And it can be financial. What do I get? Because there are many people who, and I'm one of them, who teaching is the main income stream and then painting. For me, it's because, it's not because, funnily enough, that I don't believe I could make a living at my painting because I believe I could if I fully put everything into that. I believe that is totally possible for all of us.

But I knew that would turn it into a job and a pressure on the thing that is the true joy in my life that doesn't have that, that isn't pressured by anybody else's expectations. It would soon become that just because of my nature. It doesn't for everyone, but it would for me. And so having the teaching side makes it possible to be totally free there.

And there are, I know lots of people who do like a weekly workshop locally and that's their income a couple of times a week. I know somebody does life drawing classes regularly and that's what then feeds the time, gives them the time to spend on their art. And you've got to again know that, like, can I do that? And will that take away or is it actually financing my freedom? Yeah.

I think there's another element of it that is worth talking about as well, which is that making your own art, whatever sparks it off and however you do it, when you talk about sharing it and marketing it, it's very personal.

Even if you're one of those people who you get to the stage and you've finished in paintings or a group of paintings and you're already thinking about the next ones, the work that you've made is very personal and it can be hard to feel pushy, is the air quote, finger marks are up. You know, be pushy, be sales pushy about it. And we've just had, what I see, we've had in a section talking about

teaching and creating workshops whether it's online or in person and what it can do is it can encourage you to think much more about the reason behind what you've created in the workshop and why it's important for somebody else or how it's going to be helpful for somebody else what your special angle on whatever it is that you're teaching or sharing is

And because you're if you've got that part right, because you've got a feeling that you're creating something that is going to be helpful or useful or beneficial or enjoyable for somebody. It can be very good practice to get behind being a bit pushier in the marketing.

Because you could feel, okay, it's not just me selling my stuff. It's me sharing something that somebody else is going to enjoy. And I think that experience can be really helpful, really, really helpful for artists. It can be really helpful. But what I was thinking as you were saying is, I think both of us show up far more to market our teaching than we do to market our artwork. Yep, I entirely agree.

I put up six paintings that I made in California for sale. Three of them sold on the email that I sent out. Three of them didn't. I gave up on the other three and I let someone paint over them in California rather than start doing a whole. Whereas for my course, if I gave up on the first day, first email that went out, I would have 19% of the students that I've got at the end.

Yeah. Because I send the emails that some people go drive some people crazy. Like if you're going to do an email every day, you're going to get messages from people saying, stop emailing me. I am sick of you or that kind of thing. And you've got to have the thick skin. And like you say, it's easy to have the thick skin for something that you think, well, you're lost. You know, I'm sorry. You're not going to be joining us. That's a shame because you would love it. Versus

Oh, it's my painting and I've pestered them too many times and I'm not going to. So I need to learn from my own lesson here because I do just send one email. Sometimes I mention it twice. That's it. Yeah. No, I would agree with you. I think I think both of us do promote our own artwork less and.

And I think that is partly because we're not as reliant on it. If it was the only thing that I were doing, I would send more emails about it. And, you know, when I had print ranges and you were organizing promotion options on that and then you were highlighting paintings and I was sending more emails at that point about my own work. I was talking about it much more.

And that is definitely an impact because I think there are only so many things that you can talk about, that you can share about. And in that sense, that's another sense where time is restricted.

I think there's another element as well of teaching that comes, it follows on from that a little bit. And this event that I went to yesterday, there were some great speakers there and there were some things that I feel

Okay, heard that before. I still also came away with pages of notes because once I relaxed into, okay, what am I actually here for? You know, it's not necessarily to learn something specific that somebody is going to teach me or tell me that I don't know that's new information.

But I'm going to learn about maybe just how I feel and how this event has been hosted, about what feels more important to me now on that talk on Facebook meta ads, not remotely interested. OK, what's that showing me about what I'm actually interested in? And I came away with a whole heap of not a to do list at all, but just reflective ideas on that.

Where am I? Where am I in my own? Again, I'm going to use a super nap journey. I hate that word. But where am I in my own space of learning and discovery? And what do I want? And I think there is something in teaching that reminds me that. It reminds me sometimes to be in awe, maybe, and be respective and respectful of others.

of the journey that everybody goes on with their art and the commitment that people take and what I've learned in the last 15 years and giving that a bit of honor and gratitude and like pride, quite frankly.

You know, and it's lovely when you say, you know, to see people having those breakthroughs at the early stages and at the middle. And when they get to the stage where they can then look back and say, oh my gosh, this happened, that would never have happened for me a year ago. That's an incredible thing. It really is an incredible thing on whatever scale you do it with other people. It gives you a sense that,

Painting, well, it is selfish. I don't think selfish is a bad word, by the way, but painting is self-centered and you're doing it in your own world. I'm fully engrossed in my own problems that I've set myself and answers that I'm developing and whatever, and it's my own little world of problems. But when you are helping other people, it's not like we're angelic. It's the reward itself.

whether it's serotonin or dopamine, I don't know what it is that we get in our brains when someone says, you really helped me and this is what's happened as a result. You can't, you get a different hit from your own work, of course, but there's something in that Tracey Emin quote, which is about, you feel you have a broader purpose than just making art. Not that I think just making art isn't a good purpose, but for me, there's something else in that

I don't think I always, I need help in appreciating sometimes. I really try, I read the emails and I really try and appreciate. Like imagine that I made that difference and I struggle with it, honestly. It just kind of, I think because I've learned not to take negative criticism to heart personally. I also don't take positive things to heart.

It just kind of, it's all just noise coming in. But I wish I got a bit more of that. But I do, when I said it to you about the lady who said about not making dinner every night, that might not seem much to a lot of people, but I know that's the first step. I know something else is coming after I'm not making dinner every night and I'm not doing this and I'm doing that now. And that's exciting. It's much broader than the practicalities of,

of what it directly gives to your practice or this weighing up you know the physical practicalities of is it worth it on a financial basis

And it ripples out. Like I've seen grandmas saying, I did all the exercises on the course with my grandchildren and now their grandkids have seen grandma doing something she really loves. And that's important even if they don't like art when they grow up. The ripples that go out from your family members or friends seeing you do something that you really want to do in the way you want to do it is huge. And so...

And so we do make a big difference. And I think I'm not sure I'd enjoy my life as much if I said, right, I'm going to focus on painting. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that there's part of me that thinks that's a bit cheating then because you're not really doing the art thing properly because you should be. Like we always have these thoughts and that is why I wrestle with it every year.

my staff my team knows that I say every year we might not do find your joy next year because I want to have a year off and just paint and then we do it and I think that's a totally normal reaction when you've given a lot of yourself and your time and your energy to it and absolutely that shouldn't be underestimated if this is something that you're considering or if you're listening and you're in this like push pull between I've got these two different demands on my time and I've

That's why I was interested to say at the beginning, I absolutely struggled with that at one point. It's that classic thing, isn't it? Of like, if you've got children and you go to work and you're like, you feel that you're not being a proper mother and you're also not fully devoted to your job and you just feel like you're not doing anything properly. And the reality is you're doing whatever you've decided you need to do or is important for you to live your life in the way that you need to live your life. And that's,

I know. That's all we can do, isn't it, really? As humans, we were not meant to have all these... We have not evolved to have all these options. No. We were evolved to hunt things, survive, look after babies, bring them up, let them out, live on berries and nuts. Yeah. And our brains really haven't evolved very much since...

the days of that. And yet now we have all this choice and all these options and that's amazing. And also we're not evolved to cope with it. So I think we do the best we can. There's one other thing I wanted to bring up that I think

We might, we haven't addressed, which is we've said, if we're not teaching, what are we feeling that, you know, we would fill the time with other things maybe, or we wouldn't get the same stimulation. The one thing I wonder if I lose out on is that if I wasn't teaching, yeah, I still might only be able to paint two hours a day, but am I losing out on a lot of peaceful, quiet time where I might generate ideas without speaking them out loud?

And that is what I feel teaching is a decision to give that up. You want my honest answer? For sure. And I think that is part of a lot of the changes I have made this year is in recognition of like my own, you know, the state that I was in, that I was, you know, passionate and excited about and interested in growing and all of those things, right?

And there was something about the way that I was working that was too pushy and not sustainable for me in a way that was not healthy, basically. And I think what I've been playing with this year is how to soften those edges a bit, how to pull back, how to make it feel more like a

fireside chat and sustaining not just for me but for people who are experiencing it too and again that's another example of where my question goes okay what am I learning about in other places in my life about actually how

how people operate best, how their brains work, how their body responds to things, how physiologically we need to be in a state so that we can be our best creatively. How can I bring some of that into the way that I teach and that then will have its ripple effects in my studio time?

And for me, that's one of the that's what I quite like about a membership is that I feel like I've given myself license to make it ever shifting and ever changing. And yet all the rest of the other stuff is still there for you if you want it. But I think having those quiet patches doesn't have to be massive, great chunks of time, but somewhere in your schedule, for sure, without a doubt, if you don't have it, you're building yourself up to problems. It's just undeniable. It's just fact.

But imagine if it was multiplied. So it was four hours a day because there was no teaching. There was no membership. There was nobody asking you a question. There was nobody. I don't think it has to be as extreme as that. It's just a question of looking at your... I'm a bit obsessed at the moment just with the...

seasons and these ebbs and flows and whether it is over the year or on a shorter time scale within a week, within a day. You know I've always had this thing about flow through the week but it's true within a day, it's true on an hourly basis and so much of what we do is scheduled to fill our time and

then what happens when we go into rest, we go into that kind of like, oh, exhausted switch off. You know, like if you watch TV, you're still ingesting things. It's not an active, supportive kind of rest. And I think you need time for that too in your day. If you have time to do all of it, great. And I also have to say that now that we don't have children at home,

For sure, it's easier. Because you don't have all your time packed with a million other people's timetables as well. That makes it just, it's just adjustment, isn't it? It's just adjustment. So to wrap up, Alice, the last part of Cherry's question is, is one role more important to you than the other? Could you rank them? No, no, they're both. Do you know what? A lot of this actually does come down to pride.

I'm very proud of both things. I'm very proud of the things that I have set out to do and create and

all the stuff that comes along the way, whether that's practical tech challenges or sorting out your time challenges, or what is even the point of this challenges, or I'm going to create it anyway. And then when you work through that and you've created something and it exists in the world, I think we have every right to feel proud of it. And I feel proud of my paintings. I feel proud of the way that I show up for myself in the studio

even if it isn't every day. And yes, that does still count. And I feel really proud of what I've created in teaching and what I see it give to people. And I think they are both fabulous. Yeah, I completely agree. I was going to say, oh, if I had to choose, I'd choose painting. And then my brain went, no, if I had to choose, I'd choose teaching. And then I went,

No, I can't choose. I cannot choose. I might prefer a time when I'm focused on one or the other. Yes. But I can't choose to say never again to one of those two things. And what I would say also is if I can, I'm not very good at doing this, but if I can project out five, ten years from now, can I imagine a time where I'm ever not creating something or painting? The answer is no. Can I?

Can I imagine a time where I'm not giving my time and energy to teaching in some form? Yes. I can imagine that there's a time where I say, okay, we need to call a pause on this side of it simply because of, you know, other things in life may be in time. So I don't know whether that answers that a little bit, but at the moment it doesn't feel like one is more important than the other. Yeah. Lovely. Lovely.

So what's inspired this week really quickly? I got invited up in Cumbria. I've met some of my neighbors here and there's some two lovely women who are interested in art who paint themselves. And they invited me to come with them to a little gallery in the tiniest village in Cumbria. The gallery is called the Scar Gallery in Ravenstonedale. It's all one word, Ravenstonedale. And

And it's a friend of theirs who's just opened it. And it's quite a nice size, two floors gallery and nice artwork by local artists and

good artwork by local artists and talking to Lorraine who opened it was so inspiring because she was it was owned apparently for years and years by a couple who were local artists and then they wanted to retire and they needed someone to pass it on to and she took it on she has been quite successful already in selling paintings and she's she's got little coffee um

coffee place upstairs and tables. So you can sit and have coffee surrounded by the artwork. She gets walkers and cyclists coming in and then she gets people coming in for the art, but she also gets people who are just wandering in for an ice cream or a cup of coffee and she makes homemade cakes. It's beautiful. I left there going, oh, maybe I need to open a gallery. I was like, it was so inspiring. And I'm not going to, of course I'm not, but you know that

those situations that are just so inspiring. Outside, it's beautiful. A little brook babbles by outside. People wandering for a piece of cake. Should we just get the first project done first? Yeah, I'm not opening gallery, everyone. But it was inspiring and lovely. And I'm going to go back there. But if you are ever in Cumbria, do look up Scar Gallery. I think it's only open four days a week. So check the website to see when it's open. But it's just a lovely place.

really nice setup and I bought two little paintings. So it was just a perfect day. Perfect little prompt for me, just to remind you that if you would like to come and see the paintings, my paintings at the sanctuary gallery in Newnham on seven, um,

It's a beautiful grade two listed building. And I will be there on Saturday, the 19th of October from 11 to 3 p.m. You can find out how to visit the gallery on the Sanctuary Gallery dot com. And the show is open until the end of October. So you've got plenty of time to go in and see them. And we will see you next week then. We will see them. Bye.

And this week we have an interesting topic, a question that was sent in by... Oh, I'm just going to... Sorry, I'm just going to do that again. I'll be editing this week anyway. More and more artists running workshops, either in person or online, might be quite relevant for quite a few of you or something that you're thinking about. Oh, God. Alice, I can't. I've got to start again. OK.

This week... Do the intro. Yeah, I'll just start again.