Bonus: Common Descent featuring I Know Dino
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We've reached 10 years of podcasting this year. To celebrate, we're mailing Allosaurus patches to all of our dino-idols at the Triceratops level and up. Join by February 28th at patreon.com slash inodino to get your exclusive Allosaurus patch. Hello and welcome to I Know Dino. Keep up with the latest dinosaur discoveries and science with us. I'm Garrett. And I'm Sabrina.

And today in our 520th episode, we've got something a little bit different since we're on parental leave. We're sharing an episode from the Common Descent podcast where they had us on to talk about I Know Dino and what we've been doing over the years. And we had a lot of fun talking to them and thought you might be interested in hearing it. Yes, it was part of their spotlight series where they talked paleo science with paleo people. And it was a lot of fun. We always have a good time hanging out with David and Will.

So this week we're sharing that episode with you. I think it's worth sharing at the very least because we got to cover one of my favorite topics, which is how Titanic is connected to dinosaurs, two of my favorite subjects. I think that's the first thing we got into. There's some other highlights too, like what we've learned over the years, podcasting about dinosaurs.

We try not to talk too fast. It's like we still talk too fast, but yeah. We're working on it. How we learn from our mistakes, what it's like being a dinosaur fan, how to read between the headlines about dinosaur news, because sometimes it's a bit over the top, and why we like working with fellow science communicators. Yes, overall, I think it was just a fantastic episode, so I'm excited we get to share it.

But before we get into that, we want to thank some of our patrons. And this week they are Elrex, Stevaseratops, It'sDevinBaby, Taylor, Iraptosaurus, Paul B, Adelosaurus, Evelyn and Frankie, Adamontosaurus, and The Howard Family.

Yes. Thank you so, so much for being part of our Dino It All community. We really appreciate it, especially while we are taking the time to get to know and take care of our new baby in the family. Yes. So thank you so much. And if you want to join this community, this amazing community, and don't worry, there's still new content coming out while we're out. So to get the perks still, then head over to patreon.com slash inodino.

And now on to our discussion with David and Will from the Common Descent Podcast. You're listening to the Common Descent Podcast.

Hello, Sabrina. Hello. Hello, Garrett. Hello. Hello, Will. Hello, David. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Common Descent podcast. This is Spotlight 2024, a special series we are doing in, you guessed it, the year 2024, where we're sitting down with our fellow paleo podcasters and science communicators to talk about science communication. This episode, we are joined by Sabrina and Garrett of I Know Dino. Welcome back to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you for having us. Yes, we're excited to be here. How are things going in I Know Dino land these days? Great. Well, one big thing being this recording is happening in February is the 200 year anniversary of Megalosaurus and the first non-avian dinosaur to be named, at least the way that we named them today. So yeah, that's the big news probably going on in Dino land right now. Mm-hmm.

Excellent. Well, please do for anyone who's unfamiliar with your podcast or who didn't listen to our Sicilians episode, episode 162, where you joined us, please introduce yourselves and your podcast. Oh, sure. So I am Garrett and Sabrina and I have the podcast. I know Dino where we talk about dinosaurs every week. We started it.

Nine years ago now. And the reason we started is because we both love dinosaurs. And we were looking for a podcast that covered every new dinosaur discovery because they are very frequent. And we couldn't find one. So we decided to make one. And so that was sort of the main thing that we did. But we've added other aspects to the show.

over the years as well, all about dinosaurs and how much we love them and science in general. Yes. There are obviously great paleo podcasts out there, and there have been for quite some time. But yeah, the main focus was the dinosaur discoveries for us. And at the time, we had just gotten married. We had a dinosaur-themed wedding, so I wanted to keep talking about dinosaurs. Yep. When you have that level of nerd inside you, you got to channel it somewhere. Yeah.

Well, if our listeners after this are inspired to listen to your podcast, which they totally should, what can they expect? What's sort of what's the vibe of the podcast? Yeah. So every almost every episode we have news about dinosaurs. Like I was saying, that was sort of the impetus. So if there's a new dinosaur that's been named, we will be covering that. And there's roughly one a week, which works with the weekly format of our show. Yes.

Although they come in spurts sometimes. Sometimes there's like six. Well, yeah, we had one episode where it was just seven new dinosaurs because we wanted to make sure we got it in before the end of 2023. Yeah, there was like everybody very helpfully on like December 1st was publishing all their new dinosaurs from the year. So...

We'll do that. Sometimes we have interviews. With all kinds of experts. Yes. And we also do a Dinosaur of the Day. I should say Sabrina does a Dinosaur of the Day. Oh, yes. That's a patron request dinosaur that we'll go into a deep dive of, which is it's really fun, especially now that we're getting close to 500 episodes. So we're getting into some dinosaurs that I haven't heard of before. And I get to research heavily about

And then Garrett ends with a fun fact. And sometimes we do a, we call it a dinosaur connection challenge. Now that's where we challenge our listeners to give us any topic and we'll find a way to connect it back to dinosaurs. Oh yeah. That's super fun. I think the first was the first one we did Titanic. No, the first one we did was it was either chocolate or bread.

I can't remember. The reason I bring up the Titanic one is we just got an email from somebody who's releasing a new Titanic movie. Yeah, it sounds cool. It does sound cool. I loved Titanic as a kid. I was obsessed with it. You know, like the movie had come out in my childhood with Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet. And I love Romeo and Juliet, but the ship itself was very fascinating. I think it has a sort of similarity to paleontology in that it's this like

you know, mysterious event that we're still trying to figure out some of the details of. And, you know, you have to piece it together from like these artifacts that are hard to get. And yeah,

So we got this email after I did this connection between dinosaurs and Titanic saying, we're making this new movie on Titanic and inviting us to be a part of the PR for it. Yeah, I was reading it. I was like, it sounds cool, but where are the dinosaurs? I don't know. I do love Titanic, but this might be a little bit out there because we already...

If you're curious, the connection between dinosaurs and Titanic is there's a ship called the SS Mount Temple, which sunk with a bunch of dinosaur fossils in it, also in the North Atlantic, not long after Titanic sank. And coincidentally, the SS Mount Temple on a different transatlantic voyage happened to be near Titanic when it sank and responded. It was one of the ships that looked for Titanic when they were doing their distress calls.

Oh, wow. That's the connection. That's awesome. And those dinosaur fossils are still on the bottom of the ocean. So it got scuttled during World War I and the Germans were the ones that were about to capture it and scuttled it. And they kept very detailed notes of exactly where it is. It's very deep. It's something like

two to three miles under the surface of the ocean, but we have recovered shipwrecks from deeper than that. So I think someone should go there and get these fossils out there, hadrosaur fossils, and...

I want someone to do that. Any chance you give Garrett to put out the call for someone to get these fossils. Absolutely. Sounds like these people need to be making a movie about a different ship. Yes, exactly. Sounds like there's a better ship story out there.

Exactly. We've got enough Titanic things at this point. Let's go get the SS. It would be such a cool discovery, you know? Like the beginning of Titanic where they go down and they're like, there it is. Except it would be real. It would be the first time they saw it. Anyway. Yeah.

I was picturing the beginning of Captain America. That's fantastic. Well, unfortunately, that's not what this episode of this podcast is about. But if that's not impetus to go over and listen to I Know Dino for those kinds of conversations, I don't know what to tell you. Thank you.

We've already started hearing some of this from you, but I want to ask it directly, getting us into this topic of science communication. What do you see as the goal or the mission behind I Know Dino? For us, we see dinosaurs as a gateway to science. And a lot of times I talk about, because science

For me, it was rediscovering my love of dinosaurs. Loved it as a kid. Kind of took a break in the teenage years, but then remembered these are awesome as an adult. And I'd say we kind of have a two-pronged approach there, right? Because we talk about we want to spread dinosaur joy and science for people who might be just starting out with dinosaurs.

realizing how awesome dinosaurs are and paleontology. And then for those who are dino nerds like us, we want to help people keep up with the latest dinosaur discoveries and other news. Yeah. Yeah. It's really satisfying too when somebody reaches out to us and says like,

that they didn't know much about. Oh, yeah. I think some of the most satisfying and exciting comments we've gotten from listeners are that either they had a misconception of what science was all about and sort of saw it in a negative light and had changed their mind as a result of listening to our podcast, or that they were in the process of either not going to college or not sure what they were going to do and been

inspired by some topic on our show to go into a specific field. Those are the coolest things that we hear, I think, from our listeners. So that sort of encourages us to theme our content in a way that directs people towards those pursuits, hopefully. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a common comment about paleontology and dinosaurs in particular, that it is this, like you said, Sabrina, a gateway concept.

to science, that for a lot of people, this is the first thing in science that they get really excited about. I feel like to me, just based on my own experiences, it feels like dinosaurs in space. Yeah. Like the top two. And it seems like your podcast is really geared around that very concept of here's a cool thing. Come on in and we're going to talk about this. And along the way, you're going to learn a whole bunch of other cool stuff.

Yeah, that's the goal. Hopefully people learn the stuff. I think sometimes we get too excited and we talk too fast and then people are like, wait, what was that? Or we've gotten a little bit too used to the technical terms and we forget when we had started that we knew nothing. Yes, keeping that in mind is always another thing. Yeah, for sure. Yes, absolutely. I've had...

It is one of the things that is nice about having a podcast partner so that one like one of us is leading notes and I'm talking about this group of animals. I just did a bunch of research on and I'm throwing out terms and every now and again go by. And just as a reminder, that's this. I go, right. Yes, because I'm already focused on the next thing I'm needing to say. Absolutely. Yeah, we we try to help each other out with that, too.

Well, this does lead me to a topic that I did want to ask you about. So in this series, we're talking to a bunch of other podcasters who do paleontology related things. And a lot of those folks, a lot of paleontology podcasts these days are

are people who have their background in paleontology, who are scientists, who are in academia. You two are not from the academic realm originally of paleontology. I have seen you describe yourselves as dinosaur enthusiasts. Yep.

How do you feel that that background that you have influences your now being a major pair of voices in science communication when it comes to paleontology?

Yeah, there was I mean, there was a long period of imposter syndrome because it's like and it's funny because as we talk to paleontologists throughout the years, we found that many people don't want to refer to themselves as paleontologists because either they don't have a Ph.D. in paleontology and they'll be like, I only have a master's degree. I don't know if I count as paleontologist.

or they're not currently actively doing either digs or prep work or something. So they're like, well, I, maybe I used to be a paleontologist, but I'm not now. But we always feel like, Oh, you're all paleontologists. Yes. And there, many of them have told us that we're paleontologists too. And I'm like, no, no way. No, I don't think we are paleontologists. I, I,

Even just now when you said we're a major voice, I was like, oh, wow. That's a lot of pressure. I don't feel like a major voice in science communication. I think the nice thing about starting from zero and going to just reading all this stuff and learning more and more is if people start from the beginning of our podcast and listen through it,

Then they'll sort of grow with us. Some people have said they enjoyed that part of it, but that also gives me a lot of anxiety because I know in the early days we made a lot of mistakes and a lot of simplifications that like make us cringe now. So it's yeah. Yeah.

I think we mostly called ourselves out when it was pointed out to us. Oh, yeah. So at least there's that. We always encourage corrections. We don't give very many corrections anymore. Now it's more of a, well, you think this, or you presented this as the majority opinion, but I think...

that this is the majority opinion. That tends to be the correction we get now. Whereas I think there was an episode early on where we mixed up like Taurosaurus and Torvasaurus. No, we thought that the debate about Taurosaurus and Triceratops was over. That was a huge mistake. But we had a very kind listener who...

We actually got to meet in person later and it was really great who pointed out and they worked at a museum and they're a paleo artist and everything who set us straight. And we did like a whole, we ended up inviting them on to the show and yeah, hopefully correcting it in a way, although it does come several episodes later. Yeah. We definitely try to practice what we preach about, like, you know, being humble in your mistakes and, you know, not being afraid to admit when you're wrong.

and hopefully people appreciate that and don't just say like oh these people

Making mistakes again. No, I appreciate that on both counts of like, A, that is always admirable to approach science communication that way. But also what you're saying about someone being able to follow along from the beginning, that even those mistakes are informative, you know, of showing that, yeah, no, you can, oops, we've been corrected before and had to be like, hey, don't do that.

I said the wrong country in the news last episode because I got my news flip. And that shows, it's demonstrating that process of learning that you're going to mess up at some point. As you're learning a topic, you're going to overstep how much you say and then realize, oh, I actually said a couple of things with too much confidence that...

I don't actually know are true. And then you can grow from that. And there's a lot more to talk about with David and Will. But first, a quick break for our sponsors. It's your last chance to get your limited edition Allosaurus patch. Fun Allosaurus fact. There is evidence of Allosaurus cannibalism. It's unclear if Allosaurus killed each other or just didn't pass up on an easy meal.

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I do think that it is important to point out, since this spun out of that question that I asked, that making mistakes and getting things wrong is by no means solely the purview of people who do not have a background in science. Of course, we've gotten things wrong. Other scientists get things wrong, for sure. I have deleted many things that, while editing, I go, ooh, I'm...

I did not actually say that the way we needed to say that for that to be true. I know what we were trying to say, and if we had said what we were trying to say, it would have been true. But we didn't. So that sentence is just going to go away. Yep.

I know exactly what you mean. In the early days, we scripted like almost everything because we didn't know enough to feel comfortable talking off the cuff at all. Now we do a lot more talking off the cuff, but I do the same thing as you where I just in the recent episode, I made a comment about an old dinosaur movie and I was like, it came out in like 1910 or so. And then I was like, I should fact check that. And it was 1920. And I was like,

That's too far away. I'm just going to delete that. Yeah. I do think that this is actually a really valuable point to emphasize is that

The knowledge that when you are communicating science, podcasting or whatever, you're going to get stuff wrong. I know for me, there have been times in my sci-com career and particularly in the early days of the podcast where that was an almost paralyzing concern. Yeah, yeah.

for me that like we're going to say something wrong and then it's podcasting so it's going to go out there into the world and it is recorded and it is documented and it exists and every time I am saying a wrong thing a million times

and as as a science communicator you kind of you have to come up with ways to be okay with that and to to manage that because it's going to happen yeah yeah definitely just getting comfortable with people correcting us i think is realizing that if we say something totally wrong someone will correct us and then in the next episode we could say quick correction that was totally wrong yep

Moving on. I've found that that's also, it's very informative. Like you said, Will, it can be informative for the audience to sort of see that process of...

we said something wrong. Here's, here's sort of the reality of it. It can also be very informative for me as a science communicator, because it helps me to better understand what things are easy to get wrong. Yes. Right. We've said stuff on the podcast that are common misconceptions. There's, there's one that haunts me from like way back in the early days. One of us said something about bumblebee flight. Yep. And the thing about how,

technically they shouldn't be able to fly or something in that realm where it's like, that's not true. That's a common misconception. And we said it on our science as scientists, and it really can help drive home what sort of information it is so easy to get caught up in or get mistaken about. Cause there's, it's impossible to hit every single bit of source of information.

science info out there with complete and utter accuracy, just because there's so much of it. And even with tons of time to do all your background research, all it takes is for you to have missed that one paper for a researcher to go, actually, we overturned this fact recently. Yeah.

You didn't catch that because this paper came out last year or it was in the process of coming out. So you missed that. So now that's no longer correct. And that's just, there's too much info for us to catch every single bit of it all the time. Yes. Yeah. I definitely appreciate it when people correct us because I feel like, good, we could set the record straight. And like you said, a lot of times it is things where we make a mistake and we're

at first you might almost feel defensive. Like I've heard a million people say this, like, how can, you know, like the bumblebee thing, everybody says the bumblebee thing, like how, you know, it's not my fault, but then like, you just gotta be like, okay, you know, it's a chance to set the record straight and learn something. I see it as like, Oh, awesome. You're listening. You're paying attention. No, absolutely. Yeah.

Well, it was a test. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. Oh, and it's always nice when you get those, those, you know, well-meaning corrections. Cause it, it also, I think it can help with that, that fear that you were talking about of like, even when you get something wrong, very often people's response is going to go, Hey, just,

actually wanted to make a note but keep up the good work otherwise that's usually the reaction that you get and and that's that's lovely very true yeah that's i think the other thing that we like so much about the podcast is we when we started we were worried like you were saying you're putting this out for you know thousands or tens of thousands of people to listen to and i

Part of the fear we had was, oh, no, we're going to get all this hate mail. People are going to be so mean. It's going to be terrible. But the paleontology community and paleo fans are like so supportive and so optimistic and nice. And like we know of other podcasters around our size that constantly get all sorts of hate and all sorts of nasty messages and

And we get like almost none. Knock on wood. I was just going to say, knock on wood. We've been very lucky. All the trolls are wakening. Yeah, but it's just like you said, even when there's negative piece of feedback that could be delivered in a really negative, you know, like you guys don't know what you're talking about. Like, haven't you seen this?

It's almost always delivered in like a really positive like, yeah, I've listened to your show for a while. I thought you might like to know is like maybe the most common phrase they use. Well, so coming at this from we didn't know that much about dinosaurs nine years ago other than the movies that we saw and maybe the documentaries that we saw.

I think over the years, as we've gotten to know more people in this space, I've just kind of fallen more in love with the community. And like you were saying, Garrett, the types of people, it's everyone is just so like warm and inviting and wants to have these awesome discussions. And yeah, it's just a really great space to be in. Yeah.

I imagine that that must, I'm curious to get your perspective on that feeling of, you've mentioned the dinosaur community and dinosaurs. Paleontology is one of this kind of weird sciences where there is sort of a scientific community, but there's also a fan base. Yes. Or paleontology, which is not something, there's not like a chemistry fan base. There's not like, you know, a lot of scientists, science disciplines don't really have that. Yep.

Especially online, there are these communities that are just, you know, we celebrate dinosaurs.

And you two are people who it sounds like are from that. That's your origin story is in sort of the dinosaur fan base and now have grown into this podcast where you're connecting fans of the science with paleontologists, with people who are doing the science. What have you seen in the, in,

dinosaur community over the years? How does it feel? How does, how does those interactions feel? I'm thrilled to hear that you get lots of positive feedback. Uh, that's really nice to hear. Um, what, what are your perspectives on the dinosaur fan community as it exists? Yeah, I think it's really interesting because dinosaur fans, like if you go online to some forum, that's about dinosaurs, you'll see such a wide variety from the people who are maybe

Maybe just getting online. And our very young kids. Maybe technically violating the terms of service. Of these forums. Getting on to them. That sort of young age. And just like I love dinosaurs. Or like sharing a picture that they drew. And you'll get people who are like.

they got their PhD 40 years ago and are just happy to like talk about the latest research. And the intersection of them is almost always positive in these places. Like in that example of like a 10 year old putting up a sketch that they drew while they were in like math class or something, um,

People would generally be like, that's a great start. Because a lot of times they're asking for feedback. Like, what do you think of my drawing? People would be like, oh, it's so good. You could add this to it or you could add that. Or have you considered this? Or this other animal is similar and things like that. It tends to be really supportive at any level of education, of understanding, of everything. It seems to be just very welcoming and helpful.

Yeah, I guess that's just been the same experience that we've had with the podcast. And we also have listeners that have that whole range too. We have listeners who have told us, well, like, I like to listen to you while I'm prepping fossils or I'm going out in the field or listeners who say, I listen with my kid, you know, like my six-year-old is obsessed with your show. So it's...

It's really interesting to see just how sort of unifying science can be. And I think you're right, dinosaurs are sort of special, but I guess there are other ones. Like you said, space. I know sharks. I do

I do think snakes and other reptiles are also pretty popular in terms of science and maybe animals in general are an area of that. It's so cool to be in a place like that. One of the ways that we like to keep it in this positive dinosaur fan kind of space is

as much of the stuff we don't talk about as the stuff we do talk about. So like we never talk about politics. We never talk about religion. Those are like the two biggest things that we never bring up. Let me interrupt you that we did get a dinosaur connection challenge once for politics, but the way we connected it was a state dinosaurs. Yes. There you go. I guess we do occasionally talk about politics where it's sort of,

intrinsically linked. So if there's like a national monument for dinosaur fossils, like that's a political thing. And then if the national monument gets repealed, that is a little bit political. But it's not the kind of issue that gets people the most riled up. And it's the kind of thing that people would agree on within the community. It's also just not what our show is about. Our show, we want it to be

dinosaurs and science focused yeah and it's nice to be able to like connect with people of all backgrounds of all interests all religions and um all political spectrum on a topic and you can have these conversations and sort of have some common ground because there are so many different things right now online especially where it's like this is team a and this is team b and we have to like fight it out and like like a lot of antagonistic stuff happening so it's nice to

To find these places where people are more interested in sort of a common good, I guess, or at least a common interest rather than picking a side. Where there's a more unifying atmosphere. Yeah. Although we do have what team nanotyrannous, team tyrannosaurus. Yeah.

Those are all good. Yeah, that's true. I think that it is a very admirable quality to strive to keep the atmosphere of your science communication positive and welcoming and unifying.

Because it's so easy, especially with content online, for things to become antagonistic or argumentative. And it's very easy for science to get, for people to get the impression that that is what happens in this world.

Space yeah that when we talk about scientific debate. It's arguing right there We're arguing and throwing stuff across the room or even the very popular conception that Science is an unwelcoming space and there are lots of people who have had experiences being unwelcome in the space of science whether it's professionally or just sort of as a casual interest and

I think that there is something very powerful and important as science communicators of trying to make sure that in addition to the information being good, that the vibes you're putting off, for lack of a better term, that you're being welcoming, you're portraying this space as something positive and encouraging. Yeah. As you were talking about that, I was thinking of a couple examples on our show where we've

heard about these really interesting connections in places where we hadn't ever heard of paleontology happening before or a new side of paleontology or a new connection to a different group of

that's sort of interested in paleontology that we hadn't heard of before. And those are often the interviews we're most excited to have on our show. So whether it's a new museum opening up in a country that's never had a museum before, or if it's a new researcher that is from a group, either a religion or religion,

A lot of times there are positions that have never been a minority or a female previously. It's always nice to highlight the sort of welcoming times that happen because like you said, it's not always true, but it's good to show it off when it does happen the right way. Celebrate it. Yeah. Shine a light, raise up people where we can. Yeah.

And we'll get right back to our discussion with David and Will. But first, one last break for our sponsors.

I was gonna say, I think you two do a similar thing with common descent is keeping it positive, keeping it about the science, keeping people like, just excited about the science. Yeah, we try to be this is something that's come up in our conversations before we try to be cognizant of who's showing up for something like this. If you're putting out content about science or about media.

We'll do side things. We'll talk about movies, things like that. The people who are showing up are the people who are excited about those things and nurturing that excitement. I often think I've seen spaces where there'll be some presentation or some content that is advertised as, Oh, we're going to talk about this cool thing. And then you get in there and it is very negative and it's very poo pooing, whatever that, that topic is. And,

And I always have that feeling of how incredibly discouraging this would be for somebody who was hoping to come in here and be excited and see people that they admire talking about this topic they like. And then it's, you know, pooing all over Jurassic Park or whatever it is. Yeah. From whatever perspective. Yeah.

And I know that when I was like, I've definitely grown out of some of those mentalities because when I was younger, I had more reservations around, uh, Dino fan communities because of times where it would come up with like arguments around feathers or arguments around, uh, we, we were chatting earlier about whether they should have lips and things like that, where they're,

The discourse is less about what the science is saying and more about the personal preferences. And as, as a,

younger person studying the material that just rubbed me the wrong way it just all over and I would get all perturbed but then as we it was really like going to Dragon Con and stuff and talking in person with more people who are fans of dinosaurs in a slightly different way than I'm a fan of dinosaurs to really put into perspective but we both are loving the same thing we just have slightly different flavors of how we're coming out or the things about it that are our favorites and

But we are on the same side. And I should not be poo-pooing you wanting to have your flavor of dinosaur fun.

There's nothing that doesn't help anybody. I'm not I'm not helping myself and I'm certainly not helping that person. Yeah. And it reminds me of earlier, too. You were talking about how there's this concept that science is like a harsh debate and it can be certainly. And I also I will say that there are some places online that get a lot more harsh. Like, for example, on Twitter, a lot of times if there's a new paper that comes out, a

lot of times the ones about T-Rex they'll get characterized as this new paper came out and this person thinks this about T-Rex and that person's wrong and here's why they're so wrong but when you read the actual paper it almost always is more like I think this could be the reason here are some reasons it could be true here are some reasons it could be false and

On the whole, I'm leaning towards this direction. It's almost always how the papers are phrased, but when they reach the

popular media on Twitter and stuff, a lot of times it gets dumbed down or, you know, simplified. Yeah, you have to simplify to fit it in, right? But a lot of times it's like, it's so confrontational with it, you know, it turns into like, oh, that's so wrong. You know, like, how could they be that foolish? Like, obviously, that's not true. And it's nice to have a podcast where you can go a little bit more long form with it and explain, like, well, this is

They know that, you know, it's like a lot of times it's like this is why they're wrong. And it's like in the paper, they explain that those are the weaknesses of it. They're well aware of all the things you're saying. You're acting like they don't know it. And I see that almost every time on Twitter where it's like, here's why they're wrong. And it's like, yeah, they they know those things. So I think that's why I like having people on our show for the interviews, because we'll record for weeks.

roughly an hour and a lot of times just let people talk. And I want to hear all the details about their work. And I want to hear all the stories that they can share. Sometimes things are under embargo and I want to know all the things that you don't necessarily get in. You know, sometimes there's only room for a short quote. Absolutely. Yeah.

Do you find when you are coming at certain topics like that that you are framing your discussion around it to sort of head off some of that perception? Like, do you ever find yourself looking at a news story and going, all right, I don't need to see the discourse online to know here's how I want to approach discussing this new study or this topic? Yeah, it...

It's interesting. I usually do dig into the discourse online early, partly because of what you say, like I want to head it off. I like to know because a lot of people that are listening to the show have already heard of this study, if it's a huge study, and then they'll have their sort of preconceived notion. And I want to be able to correct some of the misconceptions that might already be spreading about it.

But the big one that sort of is standing out in my mind as I'm thinking about all these is the new, well, not new anymore, but the newish paper about the potential splitting of T-Rex into T-Regina and T-Imperator that Gregory Paul wrote. And it was super controversial. People were very upset about it.

And eventually a paper did come out that was also saying why they didn't think it was the case. Although interestingly in that paper, they did say, well, this one might actually be like, maybe there are two. This one is a better point than the other one. No, no, no, no. But also maybe. Yes. Yeah. But also maybe. Exactly. And we had Gregory Paul on the show and it was interesting because

Even the comments that he was making online in places like the dinosaur mailing list and things were pretty confrontational. But when we had him on the show and gave him time to explain why he thought what he thought and stuff, it's reasonable. And it was when we were covering it on our show, too.

We always start with what the paper is, who wrote it, where it was published, partly so that it's like, this is this person's take on it. Because science is always through the lens of a person. There's no such thing as pure science that just is right in the universe. And you discover this written document that explains everything. Someone has to figure it out and write it down. So it's always got a little bit of human bias in it. And

So then I like to try to figure out, okay, who are the other researchers? What are the other researchers saying?

that context so I'd like to do that especially when I know that there's a controversy online because I know that people will have some preconceived notions about a lot of times they're ad hominem attacks and I really don't like that where they're basically just saying like this person's always wrong they're always saying wrong things and that I almost always will call that out as like that's inappropriate you know it has nothing to do with the person we need to look at what the arguments are and

Sometimes they have really good arguments. The interesting thing is controversial figures sometimes do have a pretty big grain of truth in the thing that they're going for. Sometimes they don't, but like it's worth discussing and it's almost like,

The controversial ones that can be fun, too, is just a lesson in, you know, this is probably not true. And here's why, you know, after some critical thinking, we might be able to figure out that it's not true. It's just as valuable as talking about a paper that's, you know, the latest and greatest, because there are so many headlines that everybody reads now that can be misleading. It's really useful, I think, to sort of dive in and be like, well, what's beyond that headline?

you know, true or false or shade of gray. It's always a shade of gray, but yeah. I think it's interesting to hear you talk about those particular sorts of studies that come up and they become kind of a big deal because I'm reflecting on how sometimes those studies come up and we will just skip it on our podcast. Yeah.

And usually the reason is because our podcast is, you know, we're trying to cover broadly paleontology. And sometimes a thing will come up and it's a T-Rex thing. And I'm like, you know, that's being covered by a thousand other things. There's this cool trilobite paper that no one's going to have. You know, this this little thing. Let's talk about this.

And one of the interesting things that we have found in communicating paleontology is we actually try very intentionally to not talk about dinosaurs too much because they are overwhelmingly popular. They're being covered in a lot of places.

You all are dino-specific, and so that's sort of the whole shtick. Does it ever feel limiting? Do you ever find yourself sort of wishing that, oh, I wish we could cover this other thing, or I wish we didn't have to talk about this particular new study? Not to put a negative framing on it, but I'm curious to see what is it like

This actually parallels another discussion that we have in another one of the episodes in the series. What does it feel like to have specifically put yourself on the topic of the most popular thing in paleontology?

I don't think we realized the enormity of it when we started. Yeah, we were worried that there wouldn't be enough to talk about. And, you know, like 500 episodes in, it's like there's always too much and we have to trim it down. We didn't think when we started, we didn't think we'd still be going nine years later. Yeah, I don't think so.

But when you were talking about the, the like really niche papers, it is really fun getting into those because there are a lot of papers, especially we'll get a few a year that are only published in Chinese. And so we'll translate, we speak a tiny bit of Chinese and through the help of translators and things, we can piece together what these papers are about. And it's fun to cover a paper that we know no one else is covering. It's,

Those are really satisfying. And then if you go to Google and you like search for this obscure thing, like if you're searching for that ammonite paper, I'm sure your podcast is like the number one result. And it's just it's so cool to see that, although it can be annoying when you're trying to find it later. And it's like, I yeah, I know what I said. Where's the other? For the controversy for the big papers, though, I would say.

We're still coming at it as dinosaur fans. We're like, oh, yes. Okay, what's the cool big thing that we're learning now? And then, yeah, it's a little bit more work to dive into all of the discourse and figure out what different researchers are saying and figuring out like...

you know, what the paper is saying apart from what the headlines might be saying. But it's still very much like this is answering a really big question for me. Yes, you're right about it being the most work. The easiest ones are a paper that was picked up by like a few news sources. So you can sort of get like the overview reading them and then you can go to the journal and fill in the details.

The hardest ones are the ones like there was a recent Nano Tyrannus paper and we hadn't talked about Nano Tyrannus in a while. And I thought I need to learn the exact state of where we're at with Nano Tyrannus before getting into this paper.

And it's like, that's a lot of background research. Whereas if it's a, yeah, it can be overwhelming. Whereas if it's just like a new dinosaur, it's like, I know what I'm going to say. I'm going to say this is an allosauroid, you know, allosaurus and it's the same family. And, you know, imagine what it looked like, make it a little smaller, add this thing to its head. That's what it looked like. Whereas, yeah, getting into a real

Yeah.

And then the other way we get around it is we just started like a monthly bonus show for our patrons that we call it I Know Paleo and they can vote and it can be any paleo topic except dinosaurs. Yep. Yes. There you go. At first, I felt like we were getting trolled because people keep requesting invertebrates.

That is so far like the farthest thing from dinosaurs. But I think it proves your point, which is like people listen to our show. They hear dinosaurs and they're like, I want something really different for a change of pace once a month. So, yeah, we actually just you mentioned ammonites. We just did one on ammonites.

And ammonites are so cool. We learned so much about ammonites. Like what? These are amazing creatures. Yeah. Yes. I think that there is something very... I was considering making a little joke, Sabrina, when you said that you're doing this I Know Paleo thing to make a joke about, oh, you're cutting in on our territory. But of course, obviously we are...

collaborative. And this is something we've talked about elsewhere on our podcast, that this isn't a competition thing. We're very happy for the success of other podcasts. And there is something very nice about our podcast. We, we very intentionally, we, we do dinosaur episodes every now and then they are spaced out very intentionally because if we just went off of the requests list and what requests we got and what stuff we're excited to talk about, we would do all the dinosaur episodes because they're super easy and straightforward. Yep. Well,

Absolutely on purpose, don't do that. Many of them. And it's really nice to have that awareness of, well, if people are excited about learning specifically about dinosaurs, there's this podcast out there by these two cool people that is all dinosaurs.

And that's a really, it's a really nice thing to sort of have these complimentary sources of information out there. It's definitely very freeing, especially like when I'm looking at the new sources to talk about for an episode and I'll see their thing. That's like a new dinosaurs discovered. And like sometimes when I'm in the mood to,

talk about a new species, I'll pick one of those, but a lot of times I will skip over those because I want to talk about one where there's a scientific process to discuss in that news that isn't as often discussed, while describing a new species is often very fairly similar species to, you know, new species of new species. We found bones, something was weird about them compared to ones we have, it must be new. And it's like, cool! And...

It is very freeing to know. I know there are people talking about this new species. It will get its time in the spotlight. So I can take my time to talk about this weird robo-dino thing or this other odd study that is a little more off the beaten path. And it feels like the teamwork of the Psycom community. And it's very nice. I was going to say...

Yes, we do the same. And I know that we have at least some overlap with listeners. And when we first collaborated with you guys last year, we got so much positive feedback. And a lot of people were saying like, this is the best collaboration ever. I wanted to see this crossover. Yeah.

Yeah, we got people who are like, you know, the most ambitious crossover. This is what I've been waiting for. Yeah, I do think it's very much a rising tide raises all boats or whatever the idiom is. We're not an idiom podcast. No. And we're also very, I mean, we might, our shows might be big for paleontology podcasts, but in the world of like media consumption,

you know, the number of ears that reach us. It's not like universal competing with like MGM or whatever for box office. Right. We all been the knee to the true crime podcasts. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

well, we'll get emails or messages every now and then, but people will very kindly address to like the common descent team or like they'll frame it. And they're like, Hey, you know, we clearly with the idea that they're messaging like some PR person. Yeah. And it's like, folks, there's two of us. If you get an email from common descent, it's from me. Yep. I personally read that email. Yeah.

Yeah, that's like us. And also, it's kind of funny because it sounds like it's the same thing for you two where there's only two of us. So sometimes it's like I have to say like, it's me, Garrett, like in the message because you might say something different if it was Sabrina and Sabrina does the same thing. But like, yeah, that's it. That's just...

That's what it is. It's a small operation and it's nice. It's nice because you get that direct connection with people. Yeah. Well, and this actually does bring me to a question I wanted to circle back around to. I think, Sabrina, you said this earlier in the discussion. I know it's also noted on your website that your sort of origin story is you.

Wanted a podcast about dinosaurs and there wasn't a podcast to do this is a common theme that is coming up in this series Yep, then podcasters create the podcast they want. Yes And your specific comment that back then there weren't a lot of Podcasts there wasn't a podcast source for this information you were looking for How do you feel?

How, what, how do you, what's your perspective on the way things have changed? A lot has changed in those nine years. This realm has grown quite a bit. Oh, yeah. I, I am very happy with how it's gone because like we were just saying, it's like a common thing.

Psycom, Community, you can listen to one podcast to learn about a specific... I'll just say within Paleo. We all kind of focus on different things. So depending on what you're leaning towards that week, you can... And then because we all tend to work together too, we can help each other or help our listeners find whatever sources they're looking for. And in 2015, there were definitely fewer podcasts in general. There were a few...

paleo podcasts that are still around still good but again it wasn't the specific dinosaur nude discovery ones so that is yeah how it came about but I do like seeing now when I search online there's just all these different sources for information and it's really cool seeing like you mentioned Adele from palsandpaleo.com

And we've had Adele on our show a few times, and I love the research that she does. I wish we could have her on our show more often, but she's a pterosaur expert, so... Yeah. There's that limitation that you've given yourself. Yeah. Yeah, it's not I know archosaurs, unfortunately, so we can't... Yeah, real shame. Real shame, I gotta say. Yeah.

See, there's a Squamates podcast. Yeah, right. My area is covered. I do podcasts.

Yeah. And it is so cool. I kind of want to share a quick story about Adele just because it was so fun. Okay. We did this road trip through Australia when the Society for Vertebrate Paleontology was in Australia in 2019. And we went out into the outback and we interviewed Adele, Philip Mannion. And Steve Porpat. Steve Porpat. Not Steve.

Yeah. He said somebody on a radio show accidentally called him Sora Pat because they were talking about Sora Pots, which I think is just delightful. I'm sure he was thrilled. I was going to say, I changed my name. And we interviewed them at this bar in like the middle of the Outback. And it was just one of the most fun interviews that we did. The bar turned its lights off on us. Yeah. We closed down the bar. We were talking for so long. Oh.

Yeah, we interviewed them, yeah, over drinks. Since we're friends with, you know, or we've been in the community long enough, a lot of the people that start these new podcasts, we already know. So it's really fun. And a lot of times we see it as like, oh, that's a new person that we could have on our show. We know they're going to have good mics now. That's nice. Yeah.

it's a new thing to listen to too, because it is fun to hear other people's takes on these things. And like we were saying earlier, we don't get everything right a hundred percent of the time. And we certainly don't cover all the aspects of everything. They often find stuff that we didn't find, or they might get a quote that we didn't get from that person. So it's cool to, to see other people's perspective on it. I actually really love it when I'm listening to a podcast and they cover dinosaurs and tell me something that I didn't know about the thing we covered.

I partly feel like I should have noticed that, but more I'm just excited to learn something new. And one of my favorite things about seeing the different the different approaches is what you're saying, like their take on it, not just on how they present the information, but also like, how are you? What's the vibe of your podcast? Because that's something I think about all the time when I'm like,

just browsing YouTube to try to find something to watch. And I'll see a video that is on a thing I want to watch a video on, but it's not the kind of video I want to watch about, you know, uh, insect ants or anything. It's like, cool. I want to watch a video about ants, but not, not quite the way you're doing it. I want this flavor of educational video. And so the more podcasts, the more likely it is going to sync up with someone's

preference of what they are needing and wanting to listen to. And now there's hopefully a paleo one that fits that niche. Yeah, I think you're 100% right. And one thing we discovered from, because we do a survey every year to ask our listeners who they are and what they like, what they don't like. And what we found is that a lot of our audience, especially in the beginning, was just like our peers. It was like everybody was like between the plus or minus 10 years from us. And

you know, mostly male, which is probably what you'd expect for a science heavy podcast. Well, maybe dinosaur. I don't know. Yeah, that too. Yeah. But over time it has expanded into like larger ages and there's been a, now we get more female listeners and stuff. So yeah,

I think that's a good sign that like the space is growing and it could be like you're saying too these new podcasts come out it gets people interested in the topic because they find that person that's covering it the way that they like to hear it and then they go and search for more information elsewhere so I think yeah it does help like the more people that are talking about things the more excited people get and it helps everybody yeah because we get lots of people who

say how excited they are when they find ours that a long form podcast. And I'm like, I'm sure there's a ton of other people that don't leave comments that feel the opposite. And I get it.

Yeah. One of our survey questions used to be like, how long should our episodes be? And they range from like zero to 15 minutes to like one hour to two hour. And then the longer, the better. Yes. Yes. We've gotten people just don't ever stop talking. Yeah. It was like, I think 20% of people said the longer, the better. It's like over two hours. Really? Okay. Yeah.

Well, there are some history podcasts famous for being multi-hour. But it makes me feel better when our podcast can, I feel like they can vary more as a result. If there's a topic like you did a Bone Wars episode, and I think it was two and a half hours. And I thought, well, some people are going to be super pumped. And people do tell us like, that's my favorite episode. Okay. Yeah.

Variety is the spice of life. Well, and I think that's something that, you know, we were talking earlier about how it's not a competition. And I think that I know for me personally, it took me a while to get over that, that impulse of, especially after we started the podcast of seeing someone else doing a cool podcast or a cool series and just feeling that like competitive middle schooler,

inbuilt feeling of like, oh no, someone else is being successful at a thing that I'm trying to be successful at. Or like you said, Garrett, like, why didn't I do it that way? You, oh, like, I'll see a YouTube video come up of a topic we did and they will say something. I'm like, oh, that was a really good way to present that. Yeah.

that feeling of jealousy or competitiveness that I know for me, I will be fully honest. I had to train myself out of feeling that way, but more and more, I'll see some other podcast or something. And more and more, I had the thought of,

Oh, is that how you should do it? And it's very easy. We've been doing this for seven years. You've been doing yours for nine years. It is very easy several years in to look back and go, so we've been doing it wrong for several years now, which also is an unhealthy way. That's unhealthy aimed inward. Yeah, that's on the other side of the coin. I'm being unhealthy towards myself, which is fine.

But I think that the positive spin on that, that is the important thing that I try to keep in mind is,

that is freeing. Like you were saying, it is very nice to see a podcast out there. That's like, yeah, they do. This is like 20 minute quick overviews of a topic, or these are videos that are very like dramatic or in your face or a totally different style. And it makes me feel much more comfortable saying, all right, cool. We're going to keep doing two hour long podcasts and

because if a person doesn't like that, they have options. We don't have to feel like we are covering all of paleontology for everybody.

there are other options out there. And that is something that's, that's that complimentary aspect that we were talking about of having a bunch of different psych honors out there. It kind of feels, and this isn't the perfect phrasing for it, but it, it kind of feels for me like we pick up each other's slack. Not that we're slacking, but that the things we don't do like short form stuff, someone else is doing right. Video. Yes. Stuff like that. You know, the fact that we don't cover dinosaurs a lot, you do. And so, um,

the areas that we aren't going to hit for someone, one of the other on the Psycom team is going to be hitting it. And I can just kind of trust in that and just release that stress.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good way to look at it. Yes. I also look at it as like, all right, how can we work with this person? Yeah. Yeah. How can that person help us? How can we help each other to become even better? So I love the thing you're doing. You should do that on our podcast.

It is nice to be in a space where we can sort of lift each other up. And I think, you know, a collaboration with someone like you guys is really nice because it feels, you know, we don't feel like early on in the podcast when you're trying to work with somebody, it can very much feel like,

going over to some like big hit on the playground being like hey could you could you like grace our little production with your incredible fame yep yep you wanna play with me yes

And then, of course, on the flip side, something that's happened as the years have gone by is seeing newer podcasts come up and having a little bit of that like big brother feeling of like, look, look at these, look at the newer podcasts being successful and doing great. Not in a condescending way, but like, no, this is genuinely excited to see their success happening in new. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

It's very true. Yes. And sometimes we'll get requests from people who are just starting out and we do try to collaborate or help them out when we can. Yeah. Because it's also remembering how we started and people were so willing to help us out and talk to us and being so...

open and help yeah wanting to be a part of it so we want to give back where we can yeah absolutely because yeah when we started it was like we'd reach out to these paleontologists who we had read their books you know for years and they were like they turned out to be like the biggest names in paleontology but we didn't appreciate quite at the time how big they were we send them an email we've got this new podcast do you want to come talk and they're like yeah sure i got an hour and

You know, we talked to them and we're like, wow, they really were very generous with their time. So, yeah. I love that anecdote specifically just because one of the talks that come up in other episodes of this series is about the efforts to try to humanize scientists. And I like that story of...

Having that... Because I remember having that moment in grad school. Like, oh my gosh, I can't talk to whoever the researcher is. I just read their paper and they're a real scientist and they're not going to... And they're just some person. They're just a person. It's just...

another person, very much like the rest of peoples. And it's nice when you get to have that moment of like, oh, you're also, you're just another science nerd. You like science-y things and you geek out about it. Okay, I get you. Yeah. Well, and I do think that this

coming around to some of the topics that we talked about earlier, it is really nice to see a podcast like yours where you can have, here's a person who's a professional scientist who is coming onto this podcast to have a very normal conversation with people, like we were saying before, who are sort of

part of that same fan community that a lot of the folks, you know, this isn't someone that you necessarily knew from grad school or networked where you hadn't in, you reach out to people and they're, they're willing to come on the podcast and talk to you. And it really very literally making that connection between scientists who are often viewed as, uh,

or, you know, locked away in the ivory tower, just talking to people and having these conversations about their science and their research. Yeah, that was something I should mention too when you were talking about that connection between dinosaur fans and sort of panoply

Yeah.

And we get some great questions. Oh, things we wouldn't have thought to ask. And sometimes it's like people have read this paper and it's been in the back of their mind for like 15 years. And they're like, I've always wondered what they thought about this aspect of it. And it's really cool to be able to be that bridge between

the dinosaur fans and the scientists. And anytime you can crowdsource from the audience, because like you said, they come up with great questions and great prompts. It's why we do our topic requests that way, because it's awesome. Oh, yeah. A bunch of the questions

in this series that I've sort of sprinkled throughout these episodes came from our patrons. Yep. And asked, what would you like to ask in these contexts? Yeah. Yeah. And Patreon is great too, because it reduces the fire hose down a little bit. You don't get like 400 questions. You get like 10. So one other thing that I want to ask, we've, we've,

come upon this topic a bunch of times now, Garrett, you just referred to this connection, you know, form the bridge, forming that bridge between the people doing the science and the people who are interested to hear about it. Sabrina, you mentioned earlier, using dinosaurs as a gateway to then lead into other science topics and help people explore science, which I also forgot to mention. I love that because that's the Mythbusters technique. They

They say that using explosions to then sneak science in. And so I liked your description of that. We need more explosions. That's what we're missing. Yeah, we should have done it that way. In fairness, when it comes to dinosaurs, they did plenty of that in the Bone Wars. That's true. Explosions are hard to achieve on an audio medium. Yeah.

It doesn't quite have the same... It just fuzzes out the audio. The same oomph. Yeah. I wanted to ask, sort of tying all this conversation together from you two, what is the feeling, what is that perspective like of being the people at that bridge, at that gateway? It is...

a place that's exciting. It's a place that comes with some responsibility. What is the, what, how does that feel? How does it feel to be the bridge between these aspects of this community? I think it feels pretty easy, honestly. Everybody make a podcast. That's not what I was going to say. You go first. Yeah.

I think, well, maybe I should say it's easy. It's like that, the cliche about like, if you do what you love, you don't work a day in your life kind of thing. There's a lot of time that goes into it, but it's like, it's so satisfying that it doesn't,

it doesn't feel hard because you ask the people, what do you want to know about this? And to me, it's like most of the time my reaction is like, I want to know that too. So it, it doesn't feel too difficult in that way. There are occasions where, you know, people might be not as nice as they could be. And then you have to be a little bit of a filter. Um, but in general, yeah, it's just, it, it's all good. Yeah.

Oh, good. Most of the time. Yeah. I think, okay, I agree with you in that, again, we're coming at it as dinosaur fans ourselves. So a lot of cases, it's like, well, these are the things that we want to know. And it's not hard to put ourselves on our listener's shoes because we're

we're the same as our listeners. And so, yeah, remembering to reach out to ask and try to form these connections or do these bridges where we can. There does, it does seem like a responsibility at times to sure we want to be balanced and make sure that we're again, because I, I often forget sometimes that,

how many people listen to our podcast, but sometimes I remember that, yes, we do have a platform. And so it feels like, well, I want to shine a light on, um, as many people as I can. And especially on areas that, uh, we, people might not be as familiar with and, uh, places that I want to explore more. So yeah, there's, there's a bit of a balancing and then

But then of course you still need to to do the big stories that everyone wants to hear about. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true I think one way that I heard it described Somebody was critiquing some of the more popular not science podcasts, but just in general Podcasts and if you have a guest on who is like spreading misinformation the way they put it is like

You if you're going to come at something from like an enthusiast or like a let's have a conversation perspective one of the biggest

criteria or one of the biggest filters that you need is just in who you allow on your show. So that to us becomes most of the focus. If we have somebody on who is going to, I don't know, be extra controversial and not like about what we're trying to be, then that becomes a lot more challenging. But if you pick good guests, then it's not nearly as hard. So I think that sort of selection process might be

one of the most important pieces, I would say. No, absolutely. Recognizing that there is a, or at least should be, a sense of responsibility when you have a platform. And especially if you're trying to be a informative platform. If you're not just wanting to share opinions and fun conversation, if it's supposed to be actually, you should be able to walk away with this information with confidence, then yeah, there's that sense of

you need to actually be aware of who you're letting on discuss what you're discussing and what you, you know, are or aren't excluding. Yeah, it's especially tricky because it's...

We know as media creators that like controversy drives clicks and drives listens. So there's a temptation to just be like, this person said something that's totally off the wall. Everybody's talking about, let's just have them on. And, you know, we know a lot of people will listen, but if it's something that we really don't want to shine a light on, then we might not want to do that unless we're

we sometimes the controversy is a little bit overblown like we were saying where

you know, sometimes people will take their perspective and sort of simplify it down to a point where it becomes more of a controversy than the person actually intends. And those people can be great to have on because you can have them on and they can explain like, no, that's not what I meant. Like I wasn't trying to say that this is definitely the way it is. I noticed this sort of thing happening in the animal kingdom and I think it might apply here. And those can be great conversations. Get more into the nuances. But it's like you were saying, it's about the vibes. Mm-hmm.

Yep, yep. Yeah, there is something...

to the responsibility of curating the space that you're providing, highlighting the positive aspects, not necessarily ignoring the negative stuff, but not encouraging those negative aspects. The ability to choose who you let on, the ability to filter comments in online spaces is very handy because it allows you to

create again create the vibes that you want to put out in this space definitely Sabrina and Garrett thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us with this episode this has been a really great conversation yeah thank you that was a lot of fun yes thank you for and thank you for including us on this series

Happily. Happily. This is not the first time that you have been on the Common Descent podcast. Hopefully not the last. Perhaps there will be more opportunities in the future. We don't mind talking about dinosaurs every now and then. Yeah. Before we wrap things up, please let our audience know where they can find you and feel free to highlight any projects or things you've got going on. Ooh, it's quite the open invitation there. Thank you.

We're raising all ships. Well, we have our website, inodino.com, and that's where you can find links to all the social media, sign up for our newsletter. Also, if you are looking for a quick link to listen to the show in your favorite podcast app, that's there. Or in your podcast app, you can search for Dinosaur Podcast or inodino.com.

And we mentioned a few times our patrons. We do have a Patreon, patreon.com slash inodino. And we have all kinds of perks, such as the Inopaleo we mentioned. And we often share bonus content. And again, we'll also be reaching out to our patrons when there's like a big interview coming up and we know when there's time to source questions. And what are our big projects coming up, Garrett?

Um, we may have a new logo at some point this year. Maybe, maybe now, hopefully sooner than later. It's true. Um, and then, oh, uh, I guess one of the big things is early next year, 2025, we have a book coming out with National Geographic Kids about dinosaurs. Oh, awesome. That's so exciting. Thanks. Yeah, we're excited. Awesome.

Wow, that's great. We will keep an eye out for that. People often, we will often get people who ask if we have recommendations for books for kids about topics like this. And it's always nice to get to shout out this work of people we know. Yep. And get to say, as a matter of fact, so. Well, it'll be extra nice because you usually are the one that has to handle those because I don't read as often. Sure. But now I know. Yeah, you know me. You can shout at me. Yeah.

As long as it's good, we'll have to see. Make sure that it's good.

I hope it's good. I'm sure it's good. You tell us next year. We'll do a review. We'll have a review and then we'll invite you on for a rebuttal. A scathing review. Yes, yes. That's what it'll be called. Alley the new series. Okay.

That's how we get the feud started for extra clips. This is it. Yeah, this is the beginning of our paleo podcaster bone wars 2025. That's when it starts. Like a boxing poster. This will be great. In exact opposition to everything that we've said. Forget all of that. Yeah.

Yeah, a year from now when engagement's down and all the numbers are down, we start losing patrons. It's time to lean into the... It was all different in 2024. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We just can say vague things. Listen, if I knew then what I know thou, we never would have done that interview. Someone wise once said, be selective about who you let on your podcast. Yeah.

Once again, thank you so much for being here. This has been a great conversation. Listeners, go check out I Know Dino if you haven't already. We'll put some links down in the episode description that I'm going to ask Sabrina and Gareth for after this recording so people can easily access that.

And don't forget, listeners, that this is part of a series that is ongoing throughout 2024 where we're sitting down with paleo podcasters and talking about science communication, letting you hear the voices of other people doing these sorts of things. Maybe some people you haven't heard of so that you can expand your own repertoire of resources for learning about the sciences that we like so much. Keep tuning in. They're tons of fun. And with that, let us wrap up this episode.

and move on and let our guests get on with their day. One more time, thank you so much for being here, Sabrina, and also Garrett. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, everybody. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Common Descent Podcast. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and check our WordPress blog for pictures and links after each episode. Huge thanks to our patrons, whose support helps keep this podcast running and who get access to bonus goodies on Patreon.

The song you're hearing is called On the Origin of Species by Protodome, which we found at ocremix.org. Thanks again for listening. We hope you'll join us next time. Thank you, David and Will, for hosting us on your show. We definitely recommend checking out Common Descent Podcast if you aren't already a listener.

Stay tuned. Next week, we'll have an interview with Kelsey Abrams, a preparator from the Burke Museum. And the following week, we'll be doing our book club episode. So if you haven't already, make sure to get your copy of Uncovering Dinosaur Behavior so you can discuss it with us in our Discord server if you're a patron, or just listen and know what we're talking about when we're talking about the book in our book club episode.

And again, if you want to join our Dino It All community, head over to patreon.com slash inodino. Thanks again, and until next time. ♪ Watching me walk on my dinosaur ♪

Before you go, one last reminder that we're about to mail out our limited edition Allosaurus patches to all of our patrons at the Triceratops tier and above. And if we reach 400 paid patrons by the end of February 28th, 2025, then we're also going to send everyone a Parasaurolophus and Styracosaurus patch along with the Allosaurus patch.

If you want to help us reach our goal and also help us continue to make the podcast, please head over to patreon.com slash inodino. Again, that's patreon.com slash inodino. And a huge thank you to everyone who joins and has joined.