With another victory at Jack's Place, Scottie is looking more like Tiger, too
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Hello and welcome into this edition of the Golf Show Podcast with Rex and Laval. Heading into the U.S. Open later this month, Scotty Scheffler will arrive having won three of his past four starts. He did it again at the Memorial, slamming the door at Muirfield Village to win by four shots and defend his title. Only one besides Tiger Woods to do that. Rex, you're out there in Dublin, Ohio. What was it like on Sunday?

Started to feel like, and this is probably going to get old for anyone who's listening, but it's really starting to feel like Tiger Woods. And I love the fact that Jack Nicklaus was in the booth for CBS, and they were talking about what Scottie Scheffler was doing coming down the stretch on Sunday. And Frank Knoblo, who made the point of, Jack, this is what you kind of did when you got in the lead. You just let everyone else make mistakes. And Jack sort of conceded it for a minute, and then he gave it to, well, no, Tiger Woods probably did it best. Stuart Sink told me this many, many years ago, that Tiger Woods, when he was –

In his prime, he would play what they call, I guess in hockey, is prevent defense. Not a hockey guy, certainly enjoying the playoffs, but he just let everyone else fall away and would just sort of trudge along. And I will say, if you look at it at least statistically,

I would argue that Scotty Scheffler won the Memorial on Saturday with what he was able to do. He shot a 68. That was almost six shots better than the field. It really separated him. There was a moment. There was a really a moment of clarity late Saturday afternoon at Mirafield Village when Jordan Spieth finished up and Jordan Spieth had it going. And I'm looking forward to talking a little bit about him, but stumbled a little bit coming down the stretch and they were asking him about

what do you think about your chances going into the weekend? And Jordan is an optimistic person by nature. And he sort of looked at the leaderboard and he shook his head and his exact words were, it's just a bummer. It's Scott. It's just a bummer. It's Scotty. And that just spoke volumes that it could have been anyone else.

at seven or eight or even nine under par, and he could have been five or six shots back thinking to himself that, no, I can do this. They could stumble a little bit. I could get on a run. I did it today. All of those things that golfers try to convince themselves of. But when it's that guy standing on the hill,

It's Scotty Shuffler looking down at everyone else. Jordan had to concede that, no, he doesn't come back. It's just a bummer that it's him. And you look at all the things he did well. Strokes gained T degree, picked up more than 15 shots. I mean, it is an amazing Scotty performance. And you look at what he's done in those last four starts, going back to the PGA Championship, no, going back to the CJ Cup by Ron Nelson. 60 under par, and he's won by an average of five and a half shots. It is an amazing run.

It certainly is an amazing run and part of a stretch of golf that now dates back

to february 2022 the likes of which we have not seen since peak tiger woods and there's a lot to get into on sunday because i do think that that was sort of the epitome of the whole scotty scheffler experience a lot of things that makes him uh peerless at least in my mind of this generation but i think when you zoom out on scotty scheffler and what he's now accomplishing as we sit here on june 2nd roy mcroy has just enjoyed his best ever start to a pga tour season

And he's already been caught by this guy. Scottie Scheffler is already overtaken him as a number one player in the FedExCup point standings.

Rory has now been matched with Scottie's three victories so far this season. Scottie is going to be a huge favorite when we get to Oakmont next month, or excuse me, next week for the U.S. Open. Scottie is the fourth quickest all time. The gap between his first victory on the PGA Tour and his 16th victory on the PGA Tour. The company that he's keeping, Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus,

Tiger Woods, and now Scotty Scheffler. We look at sort of Scotty's career in totality. He now has as many PGA Tour victories as Justin Thomas with one more major victory. He has as many major victories as Jordan Spieth

and three more PGA Tour titles. Those players, Justin Thomas, Jordan Spieth, widely considered to be among the best players of their generation. And since February 2022, Scotty Scheffler has already eclipsed them. A buddy on Sunday afternoon asked me, where does Scotty fit now among the best all time? And I was like, if his career ended tomorrow, he wouldn't be one of them. But if he continues this pace,

For the next half decade, yeah. Like we're talking about a guy who's going up on the Mount Rushmore of professional golfers. And he's in the Hall of Fame. So you start the conversation there. So he's in the Hall of Fame. He's a first ballot, whatever that means in golf. And certainly after what happened at the Masters with Roy McIlroy, we start talking about the Mount Rushmore. Six players have won the career Grand Slam. I think that would be the next step. And not to...

to jump ahead and not to appreciate what Scotty did at Mirafield village. But Justin Thomas said earlier in the week at Mirafield village that he was, I believe it was on Tuesday. He went up to Oakmont to do a scouting trip. It's been a minute since they've been up there. I wanted to see it for the U S open. And he actually compared it very, very favorable favorably to Mirafield village. So it only literally,

to make you fast forward a little bit and think to yourself that we put so much stock and so much energy and so much publicity into what Rory was able to do at the Masters and Scotty could do it this year. I'm not saying he's going to. I know that sounds ridiculous and there's so many things that can go arrive very quickly, not so much at the US Open, but certainly at the Open Championship at Royal Portrush. But Scotty,

He played that golf course, Muirfield Village, Jack's place, so well. And it is a U.S. Open light by any stretch of the imagination. It had been a really, really wet spring. The rough was about as thick as anyone had seen it. The greens somehow, it's Jack's superpower. They were firm and fast despite all the rain they got all week long. And he still made it look easy. And I think that's the one thing that you go to a U.S. Open venue and there was no stress.

The second that he sort of showed up, and it is interesting to me, I'll go back to what I said last week on Monday's podcast, that it

You could sit and break down why Scotty Scheffler probably wasn't at his 100% best at Colonial because he didn't have the tune-up. He didn't have his preparation. He didn't have his routine. He's a creature of habit. We all know it by now. We know that he has to do very specific things in a very specific order to perform his absolute best. This week, he was. I asked him about it on Thursday. After his round, he said, yeah, I got my work in this week. I did exactly what I want to do. There's a comfort level that he has right now that makes it scary for everyone else on the PGA Tour.

I want to harken back to something that you said off the top of the program where you said it felt Tiger-like. And one of our editors here at Golf Channel, Fred, had a great point where is Scotty Scheffler more Jack Nicklaus or more Tiger Woods?

I think a lot of the comparisons, at least statistically, are hearkening back to Tiger Woods because either statistically with his ball striking, statistically with his run of dominance, statistically with sort of the blowout victories that he's had, whether it's at the Nelson, whether it's at the PGA, or not Mirafield Village. That does feel Tiger-esque. I think you can make the case, couldn't you, Rex, that he sort of borrows the best qualities from both of those two players. Yeah.

I think that's right. I mean, I think it's fair. I didn't watch Jack Nicklaus in his prime, either did you. So it's kind of hard. I made the joke last week that the only reason we compare him to Tiger Woods is that's the only comp it feels like right now with the sort of the stratosphere where Scottie is occupying. We didn't have strokes gain total strokes gain T degree when Jack Nicklaus played his best. So you don't really know statistically how to compare it, but certainly the dominance

that he portrays is the one thing that I would point to and say yes. And the clutchness that he has, I'm not quite sure if that's a word, but how he, in the biggest of moments, he seems to deliver. The performance on Sunday felt like both of them, to be honest with you. But yeah, probably an amalgamation of

Sort of the way Jack was able to overpower a golf course, the way Jack sort of out thought everyone, the competitive desire, sort of that lion inside Tiger Woods that drove him to be better than everyone else. Those two things. Yes, I think it's a good combination of the two.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. Like I certainly, I think the tiger comparison is apt because Scotty is, even though he sort of has this nice guy persona, like he is as ruthless of a competitor as you can possibly get on the PGA tour. He's one of the best iron players ever. He has incredible hands, the through the bag completeness, the wanting to beat you not by one or two, but by four or five or six, I think is unique to a very special kind of talent as well. But I also see,

a lot of Jack, whether it's the consistency of the major championships, all of the major championships, whether it's the high hands with the swing, the way he plots his way around the golf course, you know, it seemed like he's not making any mistakes. He's not heavy. He's not hitting perfect golf shots, but it never seems like he's in trouble. He has been magnanimous, both in victory and defeat, but the big one, Rex,

they are both dedicated family men. And I had a moment thinking of Jack Nicklaus and Barbara Nicklaus on the 18th Creed. Meredith Scheffler for the second year in a row comes out with their young son, Bennett. And yes, it was a beautiful moment that these guys experienced on the 18th Creed until Meredith sort of shying away from the camera delivered a little bit of news to Scotty and what he was going to be accepting with Bennett Scheffler in his arms.

He had so much fun watching the movie. Oh, yes. Folks, that is that if you're if you're squeamish, please turn away from televisions. Look away. Yes, that is indeed a blowout from one year old Bennett Scheffler. I've spent like the last hour.

trying to go through my iPhone to find similar photos of my son who is now six. There was one instance in the bouncer where we literally had to tote him away in a Publix bag. It was such a vicious one. I have another picture that you deem not suitable for a family program where there's just barf stains all over them when I was holding him as well. Anyone can relate to what Bennett Scheffler and Sky Scheffler were experiencing on Sunday. But yes, like the whole family men persona thing.

Scotty Sheffield, I do think that that's an apt comparison as well. He's literally borrowing the best qualities from both of those two all-time greats. No, and that's a good comparison for Fred, and I'll give him credit on that one. And to lean a little bit further into the Family Man idea is there aren't any distractions in Scotty's life. Let's go back to the Netflix special that he was on during the first season. The most exciting thing that he and Meredith did at that time, I don't think Bennett had been born yet, was to sort of walk to the corner coffee shop for a cup of coffee.

And that, to me, spoke volumes about this is someone who is so comfortable in his own skin. He doesn't need a fancy boat. He doesn't need fancy cars. He doesn't need a huge house. He doesn't need a private jet. None of those things matter to him. What matters to him is his family, his wife, Meredith Bennett. His mom and dad are at every single event. The family is always around. Those are hallmarks. And that's much more Jack Nicklaus than it is Tiger Woods.

Scottie Scheffler did season one of Full Swing on Netflix. He was like, nah, fam, I'm good. Go find other guys. I'm perfectly content with who I am. I think one of the things that really stood out, Rex, on Sunday at Mirafield Village was Scottie Scheffler as a closer because you just don't see these types of stats often.

Very often where Scotty has now won his last nine events when holding the outright lead dating to 2023. I mean, that alone is tiger-esque dominance. It is harder than ever to win on the PGA tour with the depth. We see all the statistics. If Justin Ray was on the program, he could say verbatim, you know, what a player's win percentage is by one or more shots. Like I'm thinking it's probably a 40% chance of,

If you're one shot ahead, hitting into the front around the pizza or event. And Scotty has slammed the door now nine consecutive times. What does that tell you about him in sort of this era of dominance that we're in with Scotty? That he gets to that level where he's playing well. And the difference this week versus last week, again, there's a comfort level that he had this week that wasn't there last week. But if the comfort level is there and the game is firing, as we've seen this week and

Well, three out of the last four weeks, if we're being honest. Once he gets to that level, he knows that no one can catch him, let alone beat him. I remember having this conversation with players about Tiger Woods when he was in his prime about Tiger had never given up a 54-hole lead in a major championship. And Hank Haney, who was his swing coach at the time, thought it was the most obvious thing in the world. He said, if Tiger is leading after 54 holes, he's playing really good golf. That's not going to change. When you get to that level of athlete, when you get to that level of performance,

Of course, he's going to close it off because it's going to take such a performance to come and catch him that no one has the ability to pull that off. Again, I keep going back to the idea. Scottie didn't have to do anything special on Sunday at Mirafield Village, and he knew it. He could probably have gone out there and shot. What did he end up finishing? He could have shot. You're not putting a 70. You shot a 70.

So it was a very straightforward performance for him. And I think in this particular case, when he is playing his best golf, he's able to put himself in this mode where everyone has to come catch him. And as well as Ben Griffin did, and look, we can talk about him and how impressive he has been over the last few weeks. Ben Griffin put himself in positions trying to catch him that he ended up making big numbers on holes. And that's sort of how it's going to play out. Yeah, there's, I think there's a couple, I think there's like a multifaceted thing where Ben,

He and caddy Ted Scott clearly have a great game plan. And he also has the physical skillset in order to execute that, right? Like he's never putting himself in a spot where he's possibly going to drop two or more shots. And Mirafield village is pretty punishing golf course with a lot of water fronting,

It might not be the most strategic golf course, but I think there's certainly a penalty for wayward shots that you don't see week in and week out on the PGA Tour. And Scotty, I know he made a double bogey, but for the rest of the time, I mean, he made four bogeys for the rest of the golf tournament. When you look at some of the other contenders, they were making mistakes left and right. So I think there's certainly something to his game plan and his execution level. I think there's certainly a comfort level when it comes with Scotty Scheffler now playing

holding the 54 hole lead, sleeping on it, understanding his routine. Like we're a long way from that Masters, a long ago Masters where he said that he was in the fetal position, not sure if he was ready. Not ready in the sense of winning a golf tournament.

By that point, he had already done it. He was figuring out if he was ready for all of his life to change. So he has come a long ways. So these last three years basically faced every scenario possible. I think there's a certain comfort level sleeping on a lead on the PGA Tour as well. But I think the big one to the point that you made is this guy is number one on the PGA Tour in bogey avoidance.

And so it puts so much pressure on their opponents and it just forces them into mistakes. And so Scotty Scheffler, he's not intimidating in the traditional sense, right? Like a stare down. He's not going to hit it three 50, like a, like a Bryson. He's not going to go on sort of these epic birdie binges where he's whipping the crowd into a frenzy, but there is a certain intimidation level. I believe that,

And like there's a resignation among a lot of the field of if Scottie plants his name atop the leaderboard, sure, he could stumble briefly, but he's likely not going to come back to you. And that just puts so much undue pressure on the rest of the field to feel like they have to play perfect.

And I think that's why you see some stumbles. I think that's why you're seeing Scottie play solid golf, shooting 70 in the final round, but increasing the margin of victory from one shot to four shots. And over the course of a season, over the course of a career, the numbers are just going to be incredibly gaudy. And on this front, Scottie is what his record says he is. He hasn't done it. We haven't seen a situation where he's gone into the final round with a commanding lead and spit it up. So until he actually does that, I will go back. Tour championship back in 2022.

Yes, yes, he stumbled a little bit there. I don't know if he completely enjoys that golf course, but I'll go back to what Jordan Spieth said. It's a bummer for players knowing that he doesn't do it, if at all, then very, very rarely, and especially if he's playing the way he did on that golf course, which set up so well for his game. It seems like every tee shot fits his eye. It seems like it's a second-shot golf course, so it's much like Augusta, where it sort of brings out the artist in him and allows him to be creative.

and go out, and he knows the spots where to be aggressive, and he knows the spots where he can lay back and play for par. And you're right. Having Ted Scott on the bag probably makes all the difference in the world. Having Randy Smith by his side, I did find it fascinating during the telecast they were talking with Jack Nicklaus about his work with Jack Grout.

all of those years at Sciatica growing up in Columbus. How important it is to have a swing coach, have that continuity from a very young age throughout your pro year, throughout your formative years, and then into your professional years, and then as you made progress

as you became successful, as you started to win at the highest level. And it was fun to hear Jack talk about how important that was, that he never had to start from scratch, Tiger Woods being the primary example here. He had to start from scratch on numerous occasions from the time he left Butch till he started working with Hank Haney and Sean Foley and Chris Como. It seems like every time he would start from scratch. Jack Nicklaus never did that with Jack Grout. And it seems like Scotty Scheffler is never going to do that with Randy Smith.

Yeah, I mean, the fundamentals, the team that he's surrounded himself, the long-term commitments he's made to them and they've made to him, I think give him a lot of stability. Another thing that I think stood out to me Sunday, Rex, was sort of Scottie's bounce-back ability.

Like when you look at what he did over the course of 72 holes, he made four bogeys and he made a double bogey over 72 holes at Mirafield Village. He came back with a birdie on three of those four holes immediately following a bogey hole. And he erased the double bogey with consecutive birdies. And you may line up and say, yeah, look, it's a par five. Or yeah, it was the short par four. And of course, his wedge play is going to put him in great position. You still have to do it.

There's a reason why he's a top five player on the PGA Tour, in addition to all of the ball striking stats with bounce back on the PGA Tour. He even said as much preterm, I believe, not just in the interview area, but also with an interview with you on Golf Channel, how much pride he takes in that bounce back ability, not letting the mistakes bug him, bouncing back, fighting back.

We've seen sort of fits of anger from Scottie Sheffield over these past couple years. It doesn't last long, but there's the occasional heated moment. I covered him a lot in junior and college golf. He was certainly not –

He didn't have the equilibrium. He didn't have the calmness inside the ropes that we've seen during this dominant stretch over the past couple years that he did back in the day. But he also said, Rex, that those little fits of anger that he experiences, the drop shots, the bogeys, the silly mistakes,

he can almost attribute that to maybe a brief lapse of concentration or focus during a 72-hole tournament, which is going to happen. You're out there for a long time. And those moments snap him back into the moment, refocus him. The bounce-back ability is amazing. I don't want to turn this into like a 52-minute slobber fest, but like when you're looking at the totality of the Scottie Scheffler package, like,

That I think is a huge factor in why he's able to put together so many great rounds, put himself in contention so often.

And if you look, he lost strokes to the field in two out of the four rounds on the greens. So it's not as though he putted lights out, finished squarely middle of the pack, finished 34th in the field strokes game putting. This was a ball striking ordeal, which you would expect at Mirafield Village. But this is such a quintessential Scotty Scheffler victory where he did everything he had to do so well. And you're right, the bounce back. I think that speaks to what we just referenced when if you're making the comparisons to Tiger Woods, you're never going to compare their swings.

to each other. I don't even know if you necessarily compare their games to each other because it's not as though Scotty Scheffler, when, when Tiger Woods was young in his career, he overpowered courses. You don't necessarily see that from Scotty Scheffler. He's much more of a surgeon. He's going to pick you apart. But the one thing I think that is the greatest comparison is his ability to bounce back. As you just outlined Scotty Scheffler.

Proper player. The player who was closest to him, his biggest challenger on Sunday Rex, was Ben Griffin. He was a shot back of Scottie for much of the final round. Got it within two late, even after Double Bogey ended up finishing four shots behind. Solo second, a lot of points in a signature event on the PGA Tour. Continuing a great run of form that we've seen basically since

since the Zurich Classic at New Orleans when he teamed with Andrew Novak to get his first victory on the PGA Tour and then won again a week and a half ago at Colonial. You're putting him on your U.S. Ryder Cup team as we sit here on June 2nd.

I think we had this conversation last week. Thanks to other Andrew. Thank you, other Andrew, for bringing that up a week early. I will. He's 13th right now in the U.S. points list, and that's not counting what he did. So he's going to move up even higher. I think he's the type of player that Keegan Bradley would probably gravitate to because Keegan Bradley is.

Kind of came from the same mold. Keegan Bradley was not the all stud, everything coming out of St. John's in college. He was a very, very good player in college, but he wasn't Scotty Scheffler. He wasn't some of the other players we see that come out onto the PGA tour and have immediate success. Ben Griffin sold mortgages.

He didn't even think coming out of UNC Chapel Hill that he was good enough for the PGA Tour. So I think there's going to be a connection between he and Keegan Bradley already on that front. And if he continues this pace and there's no reason to think that he's not, then it's going to be a very if it's not an automatic lock for a bit, if he's not going to earn a spot onto the team, I think he's going to be an easy pick. He's 15th in the world ranking right now. And keep in mind, he didn't get any points for the Zurich Classic win.

So that's just based on what he's done outside of the Zurich Classic. And I've told this story a couple of times now, but it was last week at Colonial when I was talking with his caddy, Alex, and he was telling me, I was asking about where is Ben's confidence right now? And he said that they actually sat down early in the week at Colonial and sort of started talking about some of the things Ben wants to accomplish in his career. Didn't give up any details. Players are pretty guarded when it comes to that. But Alex was taken, he said, because we had never done that before.

He had never sat down and said, hey, I want to play, I'm assuming, a Ryder Cup. I want to contend in major championships. I want to do X, Y, and Z over the course of my career. I think that's a mentality that once a player takes a step over it and you have the talent that they've been Griffin, that you don't know how far you can go at that point.

Yeah, I mean, I certainly think there's a grittiness to him, to your point. His confidence has never been higher than it is right now. I think he'll take a lot from looking Scotty Scheffler in the eye on Sunday and giving it all he had. Did not seem like he was overmatched whatsoever. I would have more confidence, at least as we sit right now, in Ben Griffin than some of the other contenders who are on the outside looking in sort of that 7 through 15 slot in the U.S. Ryder Cup standings.

He's one of the best chippers, pitchers, and putters on the PGA Tour. And as he outlined in incredible detail with reporters at Mirafield Village, the amount of speed and distance and pop in his bat that he has gained in particular over the past year, I think is going to be a great fit for

for Beth Page Black and the U.S. Ryder Cup venue this year. I mean, it's not unrealistic to think that you could team him with Andrew Novak, just let those two guys go, and I think they'd be a pretty formidable duo as they were at the Zurich Classic. It's just so early to make this declaration. If you're Luke Donald, like, you'd have to be licking your chops

thinking the Americans are going to be penciling a player who's in a very torrid stretch, the best stretch of his entire career three months out. Let's see who's playing well at the Open Championship, the FedEx Cup playoffs, before we make these sorts of declarations. I did want to bring up Ben Griffin, though, Rex, because he was one of the players who early week coverage on Golf Channel, he did a walk and talk.

This was on Friday afternoon. He's leading the golf tournament. It's wet. It's soggy. You've got your slicks on. What happened? Actually, let's just listen. Let's just listen to what happened because you got absolutely savaged afterwards.

Yesterday I asked you what your energy levels were like and your wife had one answer. She said she was exhausted. You said you were fine. How are you? I'm great. I'm ready to keep going. But no, it's been a nice long stretch. I'm excited to take an off week after this and prepare for some of the majors this summer. Appreciate your time. Play well. I can't stand that, the interview on the golf course.

Well, you've always been candid. No, no. Yeah. Let me tell you how I think. No, I mean, seriously, here's a guy who is leading the golf tournament. He's just hit it at the edge of the rough. He's got a very difficult shot on a very difficult hole. And you're talking to him about stuff that totally takes his mind off of what he was doing. How would you how would you think Hogan would respond to that question? Times have changed. You would not have any teeth left if you did. Yeah.

He'd hit you right in the face with it. Seven under. We'll come back and see if it affects him at all in a moment. Hogan would have punched you in the face.

Had you sauntered up to him during the second round of the Memorial Tournament presented by Workday if he was leading the golf tournament? I mean, he didn't say, Rex, that he can't stand you. Jack Nichols did not say he can't stand you. He just said he can't stand the premise of doing a walk and talk. Please defend yourself against the greatest champion of all time. Mr. Nicholas, we don't hit in my family, so I'm not quite sure. Yeah.

You know what? I heard it. I was actually hustling back to the tee box. I had to do another interview right after that one with a person from the Folds of Honor, which actually Mr. Nicholas did like that one. After it aired, he said how much he liked that interview. Just to be clear, she obviously was not playing in the tournament. To be clear, on two fronts here, he did not say he was going to punch me in the face. He said that Ben Hogan would punch me in the face. He would have. And on that account, I had –

I have no doubt that Ben Hogan would have knocked my teeth out. Yes, if I showed up back in the 1950s with a microphone while he was walking down the 18th fairway at Marion trying to win the U.S. Open, I don't doubt that Mr. Nicholas would punch me in the mouth. On the other side of this, and I have been very outspoken on this podcast, long-time listeners will back me up on this, I too am not a fan of those walk-and-talks.

I don't feel entirely comfortable with them. It's something new. We keep trying. I will say I have – it is my – this is a dark side of me. I check off announcing, which is a website about like sports broadcasting, almost every day just because I'm shallow like that. And I checked it yesterday, and when I saw that I was on it, I was nothing but –

riddled with fear and just terror throughout me. However, even on awful announcing, they said that there was nothing wrong with the questions. It's just that Jack took exception to that. And I would agree that these are new and that it's a work in progress. We started doing them last fall. I would, I would counter to Mr. Nicholas at the legend and say that players have started to embrace them and

much more so really over the last few months. Ben Griffin being one of the primary players. I remember talking with him early in the week at Colonial before he won. We were supposed to do a walk and talk with him that week and about some of the things that these are the questions I'd like to ask. What would you like for me to ask you? And so I think it's moving in a better direction, but I agree with Mr. Nicholas. I'm not a huge fan of him right now either. I mean, Jack clearly was not part of the fan forward survey.

in which the PGA Tour looked at 50,000 fans, fans who want to know more about Ben Griffin. They want you to strap on your little headset and your little belt pack and ask two or three questions before you shuffle on off to the next one. This has become standard fair recs now in other sports, not just golf. Like you see it in baseball games between innings. You're seeing it between quarters, either in the NBA playoffs, the NFL playoffs.

or coaches who are warming up for a big game. Like viewers just want to be brought closer to the game than ever before. Does the walk and talk accomplish that?

Yes, I think it does. Is it illuminating for a viewer? Are you learning something about Ben Griffin that you wouldn't ordinarily know? No, I think there's probably a different way to present that information, but I don't see any harm in doing it as long, again, as the players don't find it intrusive, as long as the players aren't finding it off-putting with sort of the deep questions you might be asking them. I think it's a pretty innocent way

to bring viewers closer. So in that respect, I think I disagree with Jack. Well, wow. Going on a limb on that one. And I do want to say, and there was a couple of stories written and I just want to make sure it's perfectly clear. These interviews are cleared days in advance, not the day of days in advance. Ben Griffin was approached by the PGA tour about possibly doing a walk and talk on Friday afternoon. So these, these are locked in long before he ever shot a decent first round or a decent second round, whatever the case may be. Those are first and foremost.

The PGA Tour also has lists of players who some who are open to the idea, some who are lukewarm and some who are absolutely not. And so the players have been very, very clear. You can tell probably about who you have seen with the walk and talks and who you haven't seen with a walk and talks. Scotty Scheffler has not done a walk and talk.

It's probably not going to happen. Some of them are where I stumble as a reporter, as someone who's actually asking the questions to your point. Yes, I would. I would like to be able to ask a little bit more probing questions and lightning questions about conditions, about what you're thinking about on a certain shot. However, your hands are tied to a large degree about the things you can ask. It's pretty much just ask about the golf that day.

that you're not going to revisit anything else. I'll give you the perfect example. During Colonial, I interviewed John Pak on day two, and he was leading after day one. And he shot a 63 on day one, and he accredited that to the New York Knicks losing in the first game of the Eastern Conference Finals to the Indiana Pacers. And he said how that fired him up. And so the last question I asked him on Friday was,

The, uh, the Knicks are playing tonight. Do you anticipate getting fired up going into tomorrow's round? And he actually gave a really good answer. Probably one of the best answers I've ever got. Colt Nost, who was on the telecast with me actually said like, yeah, that's a good answer. I was told after the fact that let's steer away from non golf things. And so your hands are kind of tied about what you can ask. Yeah. I just, I don't want to see a reversal. Like anytime we're getting inside access inside the ropes, I feel like that should be encouraged and,

Even if it's not particularly enlightening, informative information.

illuminating for the viewer. Like I just, I just, I don't want to go backwards. Every other sport is innovating in that respect. They have to see golf, which is already behind the times do that as well. So the other reporting recs that you had about NBC sports.com slash golf pertain to mud balls. We saw the issue of course, with the PJ championship and the PJ of America deciding not to play the ball up preferred lies. Let's clean the place. Whoever your parlance is going to be for the opening round of

Cake balls were caked in mud everywhere. A lot of players, namely Scotty Scheffler, Dana Sheffley, pretty clear that they thought the PGA of America aired that way. Another soggy start to the week at Miraflou Village, as it typically is for the Memorial Tournament. What were players telling you as it pertains to the lift, clean and place policy in the PGA Tour?

I'm tired of writing about mud balls, just to be clear. So Fred, I won't be writing any more columns on mud balls. I promise you that. I'm sure he just rolled his eyes the second I filed that one on Saturday afternoon. However...

players were talking about it. And it's just not players. There are certain players who are going to complain about anything because there's oxygen in the room and it has to be used. In this particular case, it was players who I have a lot of respect for. You have a lot of respect for. Mavik McNeely, for example, who is on the pack. He's going to be on the policy board going forward. He wasn't necessarily complaining. His question was, I don't know when we would play. Live clean and play preferred lives. Again, whatever your parlance is, if we're not going to play it on Friday and Saturday last week.

It was a torrential downpour. You just saw the walk and talk that was on Friday. It pretty much rained all day long. And then normally it's the day after one of those dousing rains that the mud balls are at their worst. Keegan Bradley had the exact same thing to say. Brant Snedeker had the exact same thing to say. I needed to. This is different, bro.

Because as you pointed out, the PGA of America, which is run by venerated Kerry Hague, is the setup man. There's a lot of respect there, but he is not going to play live, clean and place. That's just not in his wheelhouse. People might have been players might have been mad about it, but no one was surprised that they didn't. In this particular case, they were surprised because the PGA Tour seems tends to lean more towards players. So I talked to officials about it. And you'll love this. You really love this. There is a standard. There is a philosophy.

And the philosophy is, quote unquote, air quotes, extreme mud balls. And so, of course, your question would be, what is an extreme mud ball? Correct? Correct. So the idea is that's not mud on one or two balls over the course of a round. That's mud on pretty much every single hole, which in my counter to this official I was talking to. It seemed like that was the case, no? No.

That was the case. And then we got into the weeds a little bit on exactly what mud and just a dirty golf ball are. So that's a discussion that I didn't particularly want to get into because that sounds about as boring as you can possibly make it. However...

It goes back to what Scotty Shuffler said so eloquently at the PGA championship that he has perfected his entire life. This craft, he does this one thing better than anyone else. And you're taking that out of his hands by not allowing him to live clean in place. The official actually agreed with me and said, this is our standard right now. It has always been our standard. And he pointed to the fact that right now the players have more power player empowerment than they've ever had. It's a very strong pack and a very strong policy board. And if they want change, they,

The go change it. However, this official did warn that that could lead to a situation where you play live clean in place every week and you probably don't want that either. So it's a very nuanced conversation. Yeah. Like, I don't know how you would necessarily rewrite the language other than extreme mud balls to how that could potentially be used. That was funny. I don't know why that was funny to me.

I mean, it is interesting that the PGA Tour tends to err on the side of the players here. Like, I always roll my eyes if there's a little bit of rain on Tuesday or Wednesday and it's going to be soft, particularly in the summer months when afternoon thunderstorms pop up. Like, they're probably going to play left clean in place. Scoring is going to be outrageous. There's going to be 59 watches. Like, I totally get it.

If the U S open it's golf's toughest test, they're going to play the ball down PGA championship. I was surprised that's supposed to be golf's fairest test with Kerry Hague, a master of the setup. I would have thought in the interest of fairness that they would play the ball up at least in the opening round, uh,

When it was, it was clear that they were pushing it just to get it in with how much rain that they had fall at Quail Hollow. I'm not sure what the reason was. I don't think Jack Nichols would have had any sort of say in let's, let's play the ball down over, over the Memorial tournament.

He did not. And I talked about this with the official. He has no say whatsoever. And just to give context, go back to Dallas where Scottie Scheffler won the Byron Nelson. They played live clean in place three out of four days. Go back to the Houston Open, which was in April. They played live clean in place three out of four days. So they do it. They just didn't feel like it reached that standard at Mirafield Village.

Yeah, it's a tricky thing. Like golf's not a game of perfect. If you're going to play more lift clean in place, what about the divot rule and moving the ball out there? What constitutes a divot? Like I think it gets into a little bit of gray area as well. As it relates to this week's RBC Canadian Open, let's hope for warm, sunny skies, firm and fast conditions, no mud balls whatsoever. That way you don't have to write it again on NBCSports.com slash golf coverage.

of the rbc canadian open begins thursday on golf channel roy mcroy two-time winner is in the field okay rexy it's time now for some punch shots maya stark is the winner of the u.s women's open we are more impressed with maya stark

Were you more impressed with tournament host site Aaron Hills, which was back in the spotlight for the first time since the 2017 U.S. Open? I was very impressed with Stark to win for the first time, to win the first major championship, to win for the first time on the LPGA. And there was a lot of pressure to have Nelly Korda right there. I mean, that would be akin, if we were having this conversation, of having Scottie Scheffler.

coming up right behind you. So there was a lot going on on that Sunday. I enjoy Aaron Hills. Don't get me wrong. I kind of had to go back to the 2017 U S open that Brooks Koepka one. It seems like a one dimensional golf course.

It seems like the one thing Koepka did that week was drive the ball well. And I think that's what Maya Stark did. She drove the ball. She drove the golf ball better than anyone in the field. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing and you want a complete test. And I'm not completely against it. I actually enjoyed Aaron Hills. I thought it was a good venue kind of out in the middle of nowhere. I don't think logistically we need to be going back there for another U.S. Open anytime soon. But it's probably not at the top of my list of U.S. Open venues.

I don't want to gloss over my strikes. I do think she's really, really talented. I covered her a bit in college and amateur golf, big time player. She's already been on two European Solheim Cup teams. Like she's got so much firepower, a lot of personality. Like I think she's going to be very, very good for the LPGA. And I'm happy that she's now won a major championship. I do think that Aaron Hill's got a little bit of a bad rap.

Following the 2017 U.S. Open, just because the scores were so low, it clearly does not look like a traditional U.S. Open golf course. It was soft that week. JT tied the scoring mark that Johnny Miller set a long time ago. It was not U.S. Open-like.

And it stood out, I think, because Chambers Bay just two years prior was a disaster. Oakmont the year before was shrouded in that rules controversy. The year after that was Shinnecock and you had the issues with that golf course being pushed over limit as well. So it didn't necessarily, it was not surrounded by great USGA championships as well. But if I'm the PGA of America,

and the PGA has sort of struggled to have an identity for its major championship. I want to lean into these sorts of venues that are newish, that are interesting. I completely disagree with your idea that it's a one-dimensional golf course. I think it's really rewards great shot making, and you see the ball running along the ground, which is something you traditionally do not see on American style venues. And so I think it's different in that sense. I think it's a stout golf course. I think BYU,

whether it was the U S open, whether it was this week's U S women's open, like it produces a very good leaderboard. I don't know. I don't know. To me, it seems like a slam dunk for not just a women's major championship, but a men's major championship as well. Speaking of the U S women's open Rex, Lexi Thompson, uh,

following a miscut there at Aaron Hills, fired back at some of her critics, not just because of slow play. That was one of the things that she was harping on about. There's pictures of Charlie Hull sitting on the greens and tee boxes, clearly not happy with some of the pace of play. But a bigger issue that she took to Instagram to voice was reminding fans that she is not retiring. She's merely stepping back

from the LPGA. Do you understand whether this is a false narrative or what Lexi Thompson's actually trying to accomplish here?

No, if that's what she wants to do, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with it. The idea that you see her comments that were on Instagram, if she still wants to play at certain venues, then by all means, she has earned that right. We see it right now with Tiger Woods and we all want Tiger Woods to play more. I would argue that the women's game needs and wants Lexi Thompson to play more. She is a draw at whatever event she goes to. I just would like to have some sort of clarity. I don't remember her stepping away from,

whatever it was two years ago when she sort of made the announcement. I remember retirement. But if that's not the case, that's entirely fine by me. The part about her in slow play for two rounds, she missed the cut at the U.S. Women's Open, I sort of dismiss that entirely because it's a 156-player field on what was a really big ballpark. And yes, she might have been slower than her playing competitors who she was with, certainly Charlie Hall.

But those two are very fast. I think it's probably unfair. They're very fast and there's never going to be anything slow. And I think in the, her Instagram posts, she actually points out that they were waiting on every single tee shot. So there is no reason for her to rush ahead to the next hole or to rush through a shot because it's only going to get slower as you go. So I don't have the pace of play thing was sort of ridiculous. I would argue that the one thing that I got hung up on is if you want to pick and choose your schedule, uh,

that's all well and good. But in the same Instagram post, you say that your game, you weren't ready for a major championship. That probably goes to the fact that you're not playing a regular schedule. Those two things are mutual exclusive. I want to be very clear here. This was a retirement tour because the LPGA itself put out that Lexi Thompson was quote retiring from

during the middle of last year you don't just basically get to pick and choose your schedule moving forward even if you do have a little bit eligibility she was retiring that's why they had all these good emotional goodbyes that's why they had the farewell tour that's where they basically had a lexi thompson day at one of the tournaments in late 2024 this was for all intents and purposes a retirement and yet leslie thompson has now made five starts

on the LPGA this year, even after missing the cut at the U.S. Women's Open, if she gets to 10 tournament starts. I think it's going to be something that sort of bears watching over the remainder of 2025. I think you could probably make the argument that Lexi Thompson is just trying to shy away from the spotlight

but she also wants some of the bonuses that comes along with X number of tournament appearances. You know, that's how a lot of these things work. And so if that's it, just admit it. I just say, I just want to scale down my schedule to 10 to 12 events. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. She's been in the spotlight for two decades now as an LPGA player. Has she underwhelmed? Has she overachieved? I don't know. I don't particularly care, but right now sort of playing the woe is me victim card does not make a whole lot of sense.

as it relates to Lexi Thompson. Speaking of teenage prodigies, how about Charlie Woods and some kudos to Tiger's son who won his first big-time title taking the AJGA Invitational over a world-class field that included 60 of the top 100 juniors in the world. Rex, do you think this is Charlie Woods' hello world moment?

I don't think it's his hello world moment. I think that you could make an argument now that he could have a hello world moment. Because at this point, his junior career had been pretty underwhelming, to be quite frank. And that is against a really good field on a really good golf course at a StreamSong resort. And it's a great step in the right direction. And we have seen him sort of develop as a golfer over the last few years, certainly at the PNC Championship when he plays with his dad. You've seen him go from a very, very tiny, small team

kid that couldn't hit it very, very far to now he's suddenly right there longer than Tiger Woods, which is pretty cool. And now that he's actually doing it against competition, I think it's great for junior golf. You can only imagine how good it could possibly be for college golf. And then going forward, the always the trap door when it comes to Charlie is no one can just be happy in the moment.

You always want to look ahead and be like, well, he did something that Tiger Woods never did. So just enjoy the moment and allow him to develop. And I know that's the hardest thing when you're the son of someone as great as Tiger Woods was. Jack Nicklaus' kids found out. Tiger Woods' kids are going to find out the same thing.

Yeah, I loved an interview clip that I saw with Charlie Woods where he said, I had not proven myself against this caliber of field. So to know that I can do it deep down is huge for his confidence. I mean, the kid clearly has a lot of game. I think anyone who watched the PNC Championship, it was jumping off the screen. At this particular AJGA Invitational, he made 26 birdies and an eagle. That's a record for an AJGA Invitational, which again is the best and the brightest junior players from all over the world. He was 604th

in the country was Charlie Woods heading into the tournament. He now jumps into the top 20. Great timing as well, because he's now two weeks away from college coaches beginning their recruitment in full, being able to contact him. I don't think he was going to have any shortage of suitors anyway. You think he was under the radar before winning at the stream song? Is that what you're saying? No, but now I think he's got the resume to really back up all that interest. I know he has access to

to a lot of things that other junior players don't, but he also plays under a spotlight that none of his competitors do as well. Like if Charlie Woods somehow becomes a standout junior player, a standout college and amateur player, I think that'd be an incredible achievement. We're certainly rooting for that.

To happen. All right. Just as a reminder, we do this podcast actually twice a week, only once a week on linear television Rex and I'll be back on Wednesday for another edition of the golf show podcast with Rex and lab with a full preview of the RBC Canadian open and also wrapping up golf's longest day coverage, which begins Monday on golf channel.

Okay, Rex, as expected, we got a lot of listener feedback as it relates to the changes that are coming this year to the PGA Tours Tour Championship. First of all, you're on the ground at the Memorial with a few days to digest the news going away from the Star format. Did anything that you learned in your reporting change your mind about what you think as it relates to what Eastlake is going to look like this year?

No, I think what we leaned into on Wednesday is still true right now. Whatever it looks like this year, 2026 and beyond is going to look vastly different. Whether that's field size or format or whatever the case may be. This is very much a bridge year. When I interviewed the commissioner, Jay Monahan, he referred to this being a journey. So whatever it is we have this year, I think you can just count on something. There will be more changes ahead. All right. You guys have plenty of ideas as to how to fix the Tour Championship. Let's start with C.B. Howard's

four to eight, who said basically just do like other sports where it's a top 30 seed. You put them in match play one on two on opposite sides. Rex, are you okay with this idea? What do you think? No, and I'm going to shoot down. I appreciate the question. I think match play is always an interesting conversation. I think you've been harping on that for decades now. I think a lot of people have been harking on the idea that maybe we should do match play at the tour championship where I will circle back around and just make some notes here versus what I said on Wednesday. What I said on Wednesday still stands.

that TV executives, corporate types, they're not big fans of match play because in those situations, your stars go away really, really quickly. And so they don't like the idea of Scottie losing on day one and not being there on Sunday. I still believe that stands. However, now that I've spoken with some people who were in the room, some players, this was very much player driven as most of this is. The players don't like match play.

The argument from their point of view is we use this one format all year long to decide who the best player is. 72 holes of stroke play without the starting strokes nonsense. And this is what they wanted to revert back to. So whatever changes are in 2026 and beyond, I don't think it's going to be that part of the format. I think what you'll end up still is 72 holes of stroke play without starting strokes. There will be no match play.

I mean, it's the same thing we just saw at the NCAA championships on the women's side. Stanford just had a historic season in stroke play, gets to the match play final, ends up losing. You can't have one format all season and then have it in the end. I think match play only works Rex as a season finale. If,

If you have stroke play qualifying leading into the match play bracket or if it's like a double elimination match play. But again, I don't think it's necessarily ideal. How about this idea from Tim Keller? This is actually a long thought out email to me. He's a top three in ties at the tour championship, then compete in an aggregate three hole playoff. We think about that one.

I'm not against that one. And I think actually that email was interesting. It was very well thought out and we appreciate it, Tim. Thank you very much. I will say that when I was talking with the commissioner this week,

being reporters, he was getting peppered with a lot of these very similar ideas. And he stopped Alex Maselli, our colleague, and said, whatever it is you can think of off the top of your head for the tour championship, I can guarantee you they've already bounced it around. So they've gone through the ideas of this, where an aggregate playoff. They've gone through match play. They've gone through the idea, as you pointed out, maybe you have two rounds left

stroke played and cut the field to eight and then you play match play the rest of the way. They have gone over this time and time again and they keep coming back to what I just said. This is the way they identify champions on the PGA Tour and they felt comfortable going forward with 72 holes of stroke play.

Yeah, I think the shootout format has some potential. However, let's say Scotty Scheffler wins after 72 holes by five shots. Then all of a sudden he has to go in this aggregate playoff with the other players who he just drummed over four days at Eastlake. And then he loses the three hole aggregate playoff. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense as well as a lot of golf being played, potentially not rewarding the best player. And this from our longtime listener,

Joseph Boza, Dream Courses, Rex, where would you like to see the Tour Championship played? Somewhere in the Northeast. When I saw that question, I got excited because of the time of year it is. Not that I have anything against Eastlake. I think it's a fantastic venue if you're there at the right time of the year. It's just always hot and steamy, and the golf course is soft. We would play the Deutsche Bank Championship at TPC Boston back in the day in a very similar time frame.

And there were times when we were up there that, yeah, that you would get a little bit of a season change. Not that I'd want to go back to TPC Boston. There's a lot of other places that I'd rather go to. But somewhere during that time of year where you would get the flavor of the fall and there's plenty of places in the Northeast you could play.

I mean, Pebble Beach would be amazing. I don't think anyone would not want to go to Pebble Beach twice during a PGA Tour season. I think Chambers Bay. I think anything on the West Coast is going to be very appealing to try and get that in the primetime slot during the summer. But I'm with you. Chicago.

Philly, Boston, New York, plethora of good options. I think that could showcase the PGA tours grand finale in an even bigger light. All right. You and I both have golf's longest day today. You were in Ohio. I am in Georgia, but you're most looking forward to on golf's longest day.

This is the Springfield site. And it's usually this sort of the secondary site from Columbus. Most of the players who played the Memorial play the Columbus site, but because it's a signature event. Now you don't have a lot of players. I think there's one player in the field this week in Springfield or today in Springfield, Brant Snedeker, who actually played the Memorial, but it's such a cool site. It's a very short golf course. It's got some really funky greens. It's sort of an old school one. And the last couple of years, we've had some really cool finishes. So I'm looking forward to that. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm at Piedmont Driving Club, which is a great track. Looking forward to getting out there. As usual, I have a collection of junior players, college standouts,

PGA tour players like Aldrick pot eater who nearly won this year on the PGA tour, as well as veterans like Zach Johnson, Jason Duffner, all in the field, all competing most likely for just three or four spots. It's always a fun day. You guys are going to be locked to golf channel all day long. You guys know where to find us as well. And NBC sports.com slash golf direction. I'll be out on Monday. We'll talk to you on Wednesday. Thanks for listening. Thanks for support. Talk to you guys. A couple of days.

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