Jason Isaacs — on being Daniel Craig’s on-stage lover and his career advice for his ‘White Lotus’ kids
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Today on the show, you know him as Lucius Malfoy in Harry Potter. He was on the last season, season three of The White Lotus. Also, he has a movie coming out with Gillian Anderson called The Salt Path. It's Jason Isaacs. And I remember being on the set one day and walking and seeing you come out of your trailer in a sailor's outfit. Oh my God, I remember this day. I'm thinking, I want to be in that show. I'm laughing already. This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jussie Tyler Ferguson.

All right. I am sitting in a beautiful restaurant in London. You heard right. London.

Waiting for my first guest of this series of episodes that I'm going to be recording here in the UK. I am living here for four months. I am doing Stephen Sondheim's last musical at the National Theatre. It's called Here We Are, and it is an absolute dream to be working in the UK. I have always dreamed of doing a musical or a play on the West End.

So the next handful of episodes are going to be recorded here in London. And I am so excited to introduce you to some new restaurants and have some conversations with some of the great talent that we have here in the UK.

And the first guest that I get to sit down with here in the UK is someone who is very familiar to us on American shores. It's Jason Isaacs, who has been all over American television recently with The White Lotus. He's also part of one of the most popular franchises in the history of cinema, Harry Potter. And he has a new movie coming out with Gillian Anderson called The Salt Path.

He's someone who I've admired for such a long time, and I'm so excited that I finally get to meet him in person. Jason is vegan, so I always love a challenge, and I found a fantastic vegan restaurant to bring Jason to. It's called Tendril.

It's a buzzy plant-forward spot in Soho serving mostly vegan food, meaning that vegetables take the center stage here, but there is a bit of dairy here and there. So what started as a pop-up has grown into this full-blown restaurant known for bold flavors, seasonal ingredients, and a serious creative take on modern British cooking. Tyndall has also earned a place in the Michelin Guide, which is super exciting, and it has big love from critics like Jay Rayner.

So, you know, I'm very excited to try this place and also meet my new friend, hopefully. I think we'll be friends. Jason Isaacs. Hi. Hello. How are you? Do we hug? Do we shake? I don't think we do. Do you want a kiss?

So wait, so you're at the Nash. So where are you living? I'm living in Battersea. My family's with me. Oh, nice. I love that reaction. I don't know. No one lives in Battersea. Is it nice? It is. It's perfect for kids. I'm right across. They're going to school in Chelsea. It's so cute. And they have like little smocks that they wear. But the best part is Beckett goes to a Montessori school in Los Angeles. And he's very bright. Right. And he's got a lot of

This place in Kingsland, it's great. They keep them busy. But I don't think there's been a ton of like, they're not diving in with academics. And I asked Beckett the other day, I was like, Beckett, how's school? And he goes, oh, Papa, this isn't really school. How long have you been here? A month or two? We've been here almost two months now. And my son's saying certain words. He's like, would you come over here?

Just here. Yeah. That's the only word he says with a British accent. But like a, yeah. That's because they're posh kids at the school. That's why he's made it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember going to the parents' day in Santa Monica, the first one, and the teacher said, Lily, you want to tell your dad what we were doing about the Romans? And she said, we were doing aqueducts. I said, sorry, darling, I can't hear you. She went, we were looking at aqueducts? And I went,

I'm sorry, what's that accent? She went, dad, don't. And I went, I'm so sorry. There's another child taking possession of my daughter. She went, dad, just leave it. And she had a different accent at school from him. Which is incredible. Well, one reason I ended up being an actor is I code switched when I was a kid. We moved and I changed accents when we moved places. Because you grew up in Liverpool, right? I grew up in Liverpool. We moved to London. Changed my accent overnight. Went to university. Changed my accent overnight. And I want my daughter to do the same thing. Literally two different voices. Yeah.

We have so much overlap, I'm realizing. Well, we were at the same studios. I don't know if you remember. I met you once for about two seconds. You won't remember because my whole family... Was this when you were doing Awake? I was doing Awake. We were both at Fox. And I saw you because I knew Ty because Ty did Black Hawk Down. We spent six months in Rockford together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember thinking about Ty because he was so funny even then but also so lovely. Just such a lovely, lovely person. Thank you. Hello. Thank you so much. Yeah.

It looks absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much. It's a vegan menu for you. A mostly vegan kitchen. That's good. I am mostly vegan. I know. I have questions about that. We will talk about it. It's awful. Don't ever do it. It's the worst thing I've ever done to myself. I think it's great. We were just saying the default mode in LA is vegan. Yeah, I know. But back to time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember thinking, because he was already in his mid-30s, I think. I was 40 when we did Black Hawk Down. Thinking, where's this guy? Look, he's...

He's talented. He's funny. And what's happened to his career? He's got three lines in this film. What is it like being him? The next thing I knew, he was on the cover of every magazine and celebrated and winning awards that he deserves because he's fantastic. He is great, yeah. There's hope for everybody. No, for sure. I mean, Ty, I think, you know, when he talks about it, he was about to kind of move on. Yeah, yeah. You would think. You know, it's...

waiting for that next big thing and then when things happen and shows get cancelled and you're discouraged. I'm the king of cancelled shows. Everything I've ever done. Well, Awake, I remember when that came out. It was quite a buzzy show. It was too clever for a network. It's a cable show. But you were proud of it. It was good. It had quite a cult fun.

It was good. I mean, the man was depressed and he was in grief the whole time. I'm always looking for a gag. There were no gags in it anyway. So I remember being, because it was often crying and it was quite a heavy viewing. And I remember being on the set one day and walking and seeing you come out of your trailer in a sailor's outfit. Oh my God, I remember this day. I'm thinking, I want to be in that show. I'm laughing already. You're in a sailor's outfit. Look at that. I'm not going to be in a sailor's outfit ever. That's so funny. I remember that. That's the day that...

Me and Julie Bowen played my sister. We went back to our former childhood home and

like recreated a family portrait and I was in a sailor outfit and then our executive producer was making fun of me because I liked being in the sailor outfit so much. I was like, I think I might just wear this home. Yeah, that's right. That was very early in our run. Yeah, it was early in the run but we loved, my whole family liked to re-watch and re-watch Parks and Rec, Modern Family. They watched 17 seasons of Grey's Anatomy twice during lockdown. We're all watching Parenthood again. It was weird, we're nostalgic. So, yeah, I've seen every second of it. I'm so jealous of it.

I've never done a comedy. The only comedy I've ever done is Death of Stalin. Yeah. And my friend Tim Daly's on a sitcom at the moment. I just love to do comedy. I'm such an end-of-peer entertainer. I just love a good gag. So the thing is, I've seen you be very funny, and now you're not being funny in the Sondheim. No, I'm still funny. Do you long to do... Is there a part of you that longs to do tragedy and drama? Do you do that stuff as well? Oh, yeah. I mean, I like doing both. I like...

I mean, I think the best comedic performances are from people who can also do drama, don't you? I feel like...

- Dramatic actors. - I think comedians can always do straight stuff. Comedians clearly can tell a story so they can always do straight stuff, but I don't think that dramatic actors can. Comedy's about timing. - Agreed. - You can do any timing in drama and people can go, "That works," but you know, comedy's, it's empirical. You get a laugh or you don't. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I agree. - It's binary. - So you were at the National, let's talk about this. So I'm at the National now and you, 32 years ago, were in the UK premiere of The Greatest Play Ever Written, Angels in America.

And I really want to talk about this because that play has always meant a lot to me as it means a lot to many, many people. I think it did just change my life. I think it changed almost everybody who saw it forever in some way. But every single day crossing the Waterloo Bridge looking at the National, I felt like the greatest moment of my life was about to unfold. And I knew something great was going to happen. It's a history piece now. And, you know, thank God. But at the time, many people were dying of AIDS. Reagan was in power. Yes, this was the early 90s.

and the politicians who Tony references in the play were doing and saying the terrible things that they were doing in real life. And so it was a

You know, it was a piece about the world we lived in, but it was also a fantastical, timeless piece. One of the fantastic things about doing the National is lots of people who had season tickets came and didn't know they were coming to see Gay Fantasia. They probably thought they were coming to see a musical. You know, I remember, God, I remember this so vividly. Sam and Rusty came, and there was a fatwa out on him. He hadn't been seen in public anywhere. Me and Stephen Lane come up for the first scene, we come off and we go...

fuck me, did you see who was in the third row? Sam Ruster came with two special brands because he was guarded by the policeman at that time because people were trying to kill him. And they were, you know, you could tell them a mile away they had the police moustaches on. They were looking around. They did not come and sign up for seven hours of gay sex. That was not the thing they wanted. And by the end, they were choking on their tears and standing and cheering and I'm sure they were changed too. It was such a magnificent experience. And I'm afraid I have told this story before but it's so true. Right at the end,

somewhere near the end of the run, I was sitting in the wings. It might have been between the two plays, a day when we were doing both of them. And the two older actors, Harry Talbots and Susan Engle, walked by and they went, you're right, darling. I said, yeah, just thinking that whatever else I do professionally, nothing's going to touch this. I mean, nothing could ever be like this experience. And instead of saying what I would say to a 28-year-old actor, don't be silly, you've got your whole life ahead of you. They went...

We were just saying how glad we are it's come at the end of our careers in the dressing room. Thanks. But it's true. And I've been lucky and I've worked a lot and I've been in some good things.

But nothing will ever touch that. It was something else. I totally understand that, yeah. I mean, that's a very, very special piece and it resonated with so many people. You know, it found me in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that's where I first discovered it. I remember, I mean, some friends of my parents would come. My parents are not from the world where people even go to the theater, really, certainly to see things like this. And they, because they're friends of my parents...

They would go, can you get us tickets? And I go, yeah, but it's three and a half hours on Tuesday and three and a half hours on Wednesday. Or we do both on Thursday. And they're like, you see them panic. And they go, well, maybe we'll just come see the first one. I went, don't worry, it's sold out. I'll get tickets for both. And if you don't want them, I can sell them.

They'd always stick to both. And I remember one coming back to the dressing room, these people uneducated but not unsmart. And I said, did you enjoy it? They said, yeah, it's about something really important, isn't it? And I said, it is. What did it mean to you? And they said, well, it meant that there's never a perfect solution. You've just got to keep going, haven't you? Whatever happens, you keep moving.

And I thought, I'm going to cry now. I thought, you get it. You get what other people don't get. You get why the angels are talking nonsense. You got to what Tony wanted to say, you know. There's never a perfect solution and the answer is to just march on into the wind. It was such a beautiful play, you know. Yeah.

I'm so jealous. I'm such an actor. I just moved myself to tears. Pathetic. No, but I think many people who have worked on that play specifically, I talked to Nathan Lane, who's a dear friend of mine. He got to do the revival at the National. Well, I was going to phone Marianne. So Marianne, who directed that, directed Saltbath. Did you get to go see that production at the National? I didn't want to.

You didn't want to. I didn't feel it was right. What's the point? I did see them on Broadway. In fact, they were very kind. So I spent a few days with Tony. He took me to the Ramble and I went, Jesus Christ. So Tony took you to the Ramble? Took me everywhere. Okay, let's slide. Well, because it's in the play. Yeah. The Rambles is an area of Central Park where people have...

Out in the air, full-on blowjobs and anal sex. Let's call it what it is. I don't know if it's still happening there. I remember walking through Central Park when I was young and going from the east side to the west side. And, you know, I mean, the Rambles is also a beautiful part of the park. It's gorgeous. A lot of people doing bird watching and, you know, maybe like as they're looking for birds suddenly coming upon something else that they don't want to see. What's that bush? I remember seeing these guys walk up a very large like rock and they kind of disappeared at the top of the rock.

And I was like, what are they doing? And then I caught a glimpse of one of them and they were completely naked. Sure, one of them was kneeling and you go, what are they praying? Okay, so Tony Kushner took you to the rambles. Tony took me to so many places. He told me so many useful things for the play. Mostly because he is Lewis. I mean, he is Lewis. He talks like Lewis and Lewis is written to be in his rhythms. Oh, look at that. Here we saw him. That looks...

- That means eggplant. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Fluffy pita? That's a roll. Fluffy pita's a roll. That's like saying a bagel with a hole filled in as a donut. Okay, thanks so much. - Thank you so much.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Jason tells me about his experience acting in what we both deem the greatest play ever written. And he tells me all about acting alongside Gillian Anderson in his new movie, The Salt Path. Okay, be right back. All right, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart.

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There's no safe like SimpliSafe. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. I, you know, also, you got to be with Daniel Craig at the beginning of his career as well. We got to be with him. We had a lot of sex. We had a lot of sex. I was actually anxious about having sex with him. And it was a weird thing because I...

It became clear to me at drama school that all the great artists in life have been bisexual. You think so? Yeah. Okay. Michelangelo and all, just the actors, you know, Brando and Olivier, you know, everybody I admired in many ways. And I thought, well, I better have sex with men. And then I thought, well, I better have, you know, it's only, it's only right. Did you try it? It's conditioning. So I hadn't tried it. Okay. And I had done, I don't know, but, um,

But I was anxious about it in rehearsals and we were building up to nothing at some point I'm gonna have to kill and Stephen was quite Stephen Delane who played prior This was it felt tense about his eyes tense by and then and I started reading these weighty tomes on the psychology of sexuality like I tried to Intellectualize my way into it took my brother who is a psychiatrist about and my agents Various other people and then I kissed Daniel and he was so easy with it And I know I was easy with it and we were really easy with each other's bodies and I thought oh, it's just that and

God, why did I build this up? And we had to lie naked under the sheet for an hour every night. It was easy. It was never easy with Stephen because he was tense, so I was tense. But Dan was so... He was the perfect bond because he's the only person I've ever met who is as or maybe more comfortable naked than he is dressed. It was very easy in his body. Well, I love that you had that comfort and ease with one another. I mean, that's... He was a lovely man. He was easy to work with. Not that Stephen wasn't easy. He was just...

He was very comfortable with that. And so it made me comfortable with it. Uh-huh. Yeah. You know, I used to drag him to the showers and make him have a shave because I got stubble rash off him. I used to pinch each other's bits under the sheet just to make each other laugh. Oh, my God. That's so great. I love that.

I do love the full circle moment. This is bloody delicious. Sorry, what are we eating now? I'm looking here. I'm not sure what this is, but it's fucking good. These are the three that are at the top. I swear all the time. This is a white bean. I'm conscious that you don't swear. You're well brought up.

This is the fucking white bean chili. This is the white bean and chili. This is amazing. I'm coming back to this restaurant. Will you talk to me a little bit about working with Marianne Elliott, who is such a great director? She directed The Salt Path, which is... She did. That's essentially what I'm here to promote. Watch The Salt Path. That's a bit over now. That's good. Which was also one of my favorite actresses, Gillian Anderson. Gillian is a phenomenon because she's...

An utter delight to work with. She's a fabulous actress when someone says action. We were on the side of a mountain most of the time, walking up hills. It was outdoors and very arduous conditions a lot of the time. And she feels a cold. There's not much to her. There's not an ounce of fat on her. And we had these giant warm winter coats and she would put it on backwards, like the Horton Bates, so she was enveloped in it and be on her phone and sit on the side. You'd see a lump of coat somewhere.

until they said action and she'd fling it off and she'd come over and she'd be my wife and she'd be loving and we'd be crying and we'd be laughing, whatever it was. And then they'd go cut and she'd run back. The little heater tent sometimes for her.

But we got on very well, and we have a nice, dry texting relationship. But on set, well, it wasn't tense or anything, but we live in different acting planets. That's so interesting. It's essentially, from what I gathered from the trailer, a two-hander. I mean... Oh, no, it is a two-hander. I mean, there are other people in it, but it's a real-life thing. It's a real-life event which was memorialized. Someone wrote a memoir, and now we're trying to make it a film. That's a very, very popular book. Because it's phenomenal. Yeah.

I don't have to do it without making a spoiler, but I'll try and do a very quick version. There was this couple, they were farmers in Wales, they're from Staffordshire, they're farmers in Wales, they're in Airbnb, they're barn as well. And they were, you know, they were doing okay, but they have two kids who are just at college and a friend of his, a friend of Marth's, said, you know,

I know you provide for the kids in the future, but I've got this investment opportunity. I can make you a load of money if you want, you know, if you want to do it. So they did. And they signed over their property for this investment, but it was a con and they lost everything. He, by the way, building the Airbnb had fallen through the roof of the barn and his shoulder didn't work and his leg didn't work and it got worse and worse. Anyway, they went to court one day. They had this silver bullet. Someone, they found out he'd conned loads of other people. They had a piece of paper. They submitted it to the courts and they'd handed it in too late. And the judge went, you have to give up your house and all of your money and you've got a week to get out.

Their entire life taken away from them. They just were in shock. He had a doctor's appointment for his shoulder and his leg packed up. And they went to the doctor, still in shock, really. And the doctor said, sit down, I've got bad news for you. And they went, what?

They thought it was arthritis or, you know, bad shoulder. And he had a fatal degenerative neurological condition and he had possibly weeks or months to live. And he said, go home and avoid the stairs and say your goodbyes. Not knowing they didn't have a home. Didn't have a home. And before they knew it, in a blink of an eye, the bailiffs are banging at the door to kick him out. And they had a book, a box in their hands with a book sticking out. And it was a map, a guide to the southeast coast of Britain. And she went, why don't we just walk?

Which is a weird thing to say to a man whose leg wasn't working, an arm wasn't working, his brain was packing up. But he said, well, they had nowhere to stay. They didn't have friends. They were embarrassed and ashamed to ask if their friends, if they could stay with them or live with them. They didn't know what they were going to do. So they walked.

And it's a story of that, what happened on their walk. It's a really extraordinary story about these two people. And making it was, unlike telling a fictional story, you think, I've met the real people, they're amazing. The book's amazing. You feel the responsibility to try and capture some of the extraordinary feeling you get when you read the book or when you meet them. And I hope the film has captured some of that. I don't know. I mean, there's got to be, and I think about this actually with Harry Potter too, but like a pressure when you are,

being given the gift of portraying something that so many people already love. They love it so much. And I think about that a lot with Harry Potter. Those books were so incredibly popular. And then you were given the opportunity to bring this person to life. Well, it's a perfect segue to talk about Marianne, actually, in some ways. Because, like you say, she comes from the theater. And on Harry Potter, the thing that was very surprising

It's how much leeway we had to improvise and change things. Joe, I think, recognized there were films and not books, and it's a different medium. And she gave... She wasn't on set. I didn't meet her for years. I didn't meet her for the sixth book, you know. And for my very first day, I was improvising lines. And my very first shot...

was walking out of Dumbledore's office from the end of Chamber of Secrets and where he just dismissed me and I leave. And I went, I don't know if this, would this guy leave without saying something? Harry Potter's there. He's a very proud, arrogant man. Surely he'd say something trying to get status back in him. Well, we'll try something. And I made up a line and Daniel made up a line back and I thought, we're allowed to make shit up in Harry Potter. Wow.

Marianne, on the other hand, comes from theatre. And so she always had the script in her hand. And for her, the script was sacrosanct. And that was an unusual experience. The only other time I've ever experienced that was doing some episodes of The West Wing. And although Aaron Sorkin had left, there was this culture of a semicolon is a semicolon, it's not an ellipse. And like, you know, you...

You better make sure that you don't turn do not into don't or vice versa. I've struggled with it a lot. It's not how I'd ever worked before. And it was my introduction to American TV culture, which was very, very different. I'm presuming on comedy, you get more freedom to change. So much more. So much more. Anyway, it's very collaborative. Did you get to see Daniel Radcliffe in Marilee Roll Along? I didn't. You didn't?

You didn't. I haven't seen Dan on stage, which is a shame. Really? I always knew. He's great on stage. I always knew he was smart. I thought he would, and I still think he'll end up being a director as well as an actor. But I loved what he, he has such, he was anyway so grounded and so mature always and humble. And he's continued to be ambitious, really ambitious. And take risks as well. He's like, I've done, I've been famous. I've been rich. I am with those things. So now I can do interesting independent films. Yeah.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Jason tells me about the life advice he gave to his TV kids on White Lotus and how his outlook on life shifted after he became sober. Okay, be right back.

Some of my favorite episodes of Dinners on Me are episodes that happen over a good glass of wine. Patricia Clarkson, Keri Russell, Margo Martindale, they gave me some of the best stories I have ever heard over a glass of wine. They definitely opened up. I mean, maybe it was the food or, you know, maybe it was the wine. I'm just saying.

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Right now, I'm in London, knee-deep in rehearsals, for Here We Are at the National Theatre, Sondheim's final musical. It is an incredible experience, but it also means I'm away from home for months. And if you travel for long stretches of time like I do, you might be wondering, what if my place could be working for me while I'm away?

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So if you're someone who travels often, whether it's for work, a show, or just chasing new experiences, you could find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. When I've been around other young people who are having moments in their career and they blow up, even the kids who play my kids in White Lotus, who I became very close to, Patrick, Sam, and Sarah, Kathleen, I'm like, I keep saying, go to Sundance, find filmmakers you like, have lunch with them.

Find the people. I know that your agents will be going, you just had this giant launch. Let's get you in a huge franchise. You can do that too, but make sure you find interesting people making interesting projects and do that stuff because otherwise you can suddenly find yourself on a happy meal but not having a career. Right, right. So speaking about White Lotus a little bit, I love all of those seasons. I've seen the last two. He's extraordinary. Talk about extraordinary talents. Mike White is something really special.

So I started season three and then I came here and I went right into rehearsal. And so I saw the first three episodes. I was like, let me figure out how to continue to watch White Lotus here. And I know there was something called a VPN. I don't know what that is. It turns your computer into a... It was on British channels as well. You had to have Sky. I can't find it anywhere. You need Sky. Listen, this is where I'm getting at.

I have not finished quite loads. Oh, you stopped at episode three? I've seen the first three episodes. No, it's a very slow... Like a great torch song, he takes it very, very slowly. You know when a great singer sings it like, please belt, please belt. He waits and then it gets going. The momentum's crazy. I know because that's how every season is that way. But it's been impossible. The show is so popular. It's been impossible to avoid spoilers. I can't believe it. So I'm getting information. You know stuff now. From little... Would you... I mean...

Do you want to recap what happens after episode three for me? No! Here's the thing about it. There have been many shows like it. When we were making it, I don't know if you've had this. You've been in a very big success that ran for so many seasons. But I've been in things, some of which are successful. I've been in lots of big failures, lots of shows that are cancelled. So I was with the other actors in White Lotus. I'm older than them and they allowed me to patronise them because we all got close and spent a lot of time just hanging, doing nothing together. And I was constantly saying to them,

Enjoy this. Stop talking about what happens to other actors and writers. Stop talking about what's coming down the road. We're in Thailand. Look at this today. We've got a day off. We've rented a boat. Enjoy the journey because there's no destination. Just enjoy this. Don't be living in its success. Little did I know what would actually happen. It blew up a billion times over, but I do think... You didn't think that it would? No. You don't ever know. But no one had any idea that this thing would happen to it at all. It's just it... And it was, for me...

I learned a long time ago, maybe when I got sober, to be in the moment and to try, and if I'm, when I'm not in the moment, to recognize it and to try and be present. And so I was in a film with Peter Pan, for instance, that shot for 14 months on the Gold Coast. It's a beautiful film. Great film. And it destroyed everybody's career. It took, you know,

Five and a half cents and a bubblegum wrapper and and we're it was all over for everybody I couldn't get a walk on in CSI Hendon, you know, it was really serious Yeah, it was it was I was thinking I need plastic surgery. I've got a go I've got to go back to law. It was a terrible Captain Hook Yeah, I can't meet at mr. Don in the stunning film but

I had been grounded enough to go, I'm living on a beach in Australia. We have a new baby. My wife is here. They fly friends out every month because I'm not getting paid very much, but they give me a lot of flights. This is a beautiful life. And if the film doesn't work, it'll be disappointing. But I didn't invest in its success like other people did who were crushed and broken by it. So I know I was saying that to all the White Lotus kids when we were doing it. And yeah, who knew? It went bonkers. Yeah. It went really, really nuts. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like for so many people, you know, like Jennifer Coolidge and Parker Posey and Carrie Coon, who I've been such a fan of for so long. She's such a fantastic actress. If you are on White Lotus, all of a sudden it's like it does something to your career. Not necessarily. I think it does. There's two other actors who were great. No one's ever been better. And the reason no one's ever been better is that

Actors are great with great material. They're brilliant with brilliant material and they're forgettable with forgettable material. Everyone I know is good enough to be great with great material. All the actors are great in White Lotus. I couldn't wait to watch what everyone else did. Can I ask how much of an overlap is there? Because the show is sort of structured that you are all in these groups and families and sort of subplots. The stories don't overlap that much. Do you get time with the entire cast? Yeah, yeah. Well, because it's an ensemble. No.

No, no, but you shoot with your family group. Yeah. But there's often the night shoots where you do the restaurant, you know, the two weeks we do night shoots, there's two weeks on a boat. Everybody's there. Right. And then they just do people one at a time. They move around, you know, uh,

You have your days off on normally just with your story group. We're there for seven months. There's five storylines. Four-fifths of the time, you're off with all the other four-fifths of the people. Believe me, you get more than enough time with each other. What were some of your favorite memories offset in...

Well, my wife came. She's never wanted to visit a set before. I remember her saying to me once, she goes, you don't see it on a set. It's like the Court of Louis XIV. Everyone is nice to you and they bring you tea and they love your jokes. And I went, no, I see it. I fucking love it. I don't get that at home. But for some reason, when we were in a five-star hotel in Thailand, she wanted to come and visit. And we're also freshly empty nesters. How are you? Okay.

So my favorite days were when I first arrived, she didn't come. I was by myself for a month in the place that looks like the White Lotus. We actually were in Loto hotels, but when we first got there, we were in the Four Seasons, it goes smoothly. It's spectacular. And because they have to take the whole place over, because you can't have a paying guest and tell them they can't use the pool. So I was given this gigantic villa and a side villa for a bedroom and a butler and occasionally a butlady. And so I would, that's an inappropriate phrase. You know what I'm saying? A lady butler. And...

What kind of? No, no, it's fine. And so I would FaceTime people going, look where I am. I'm living like the Alga Calm. Actually, it was really lonely because we were miles away from all the other people and the women, Parker and Carrie and Michelle and Leslie were all in these two villas together and they hung out and did Pilates and I hadn't met the other people much yet. So my kids, Patrick, Sam and Sarah, my screen kids came and hung out with me every day and we played cards, we watched movies,

telly, watch movies, and we'd have a laugh, and we ate and stuff. And then we would rent boats and go out on boats by ourselves. And I got very, very close to them. Not as any kind of method thing, but I just really fell in love with them. So that's one of my favorite memories, the first month before Emma got there. And once Emma got there, she's so good with people, suddenly all the adults wanted to know me too, and she was my way into it. That's how it is with my husband. People love my husband, and once they meet him, I like...

They trust you. They like me more. Yeah, yeah. That's absolutely what happened. She came, she met the women, the women all adored her. I was then invited for the dinners and they're like, we used to be bad. Okay, because they really wanted her there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's somewhat... And then my favorite memory is on set because Mike is just... People don't talk about his directing. They go, Mike White is such an incredible writer. No, it wouldn't be the same if anyone else was directing. There's an atmosphere of kind of controlled...

Chaos. He's a great director. Because he's behind the monitor shrieking demonically with laughter at some really inappropriate, sick things. And then shouting out ideas which you would never try for anyone else. But it's him. And he controls the edit. You also give him things you would never give another director because there's so many storylines. It's an anthology. And he's going to have to edit it in the end. He's not sure what tone a scene should be.

Normally as an actor, you're like, that's my bit. I will bring you this character. It's shot out of sequence. I know what I was like walking through that door five months ago. But he wants a bunch of choices. And unlike with anyone else, I was happy to give them to him because I trust him in the edit because he's proved himself so many times. So the set was an exciting place to be in. They're my favorite memories, I think, with the work. And then the other thing is we traveled. Some people stayed in the hotel.

They think they've got an impression of Thailand and they didn't go anywhere. They didn't see Thailand. They didn't see other countries. We went to various other countries and I went to Bhutan, which is the greatest country on God's earth. It's the happiest place in the world. It's never been colonized. It's never been invaded. They have a ministry of happiness. You know about that. I've heard about this. Yeah, the gross national happiness is their national philosophy. And so if they're going to do something for the country, they send...

Officers out all over the country and they've taken measure of will it increase or decrease gross national happiness? And if it won't they don't do it So don't dig up their natural resources where they're rich in they don't want to be richer than they are They don't want more tourists than they are then the only carbon negative country world they export hydroelectric power like and that and it's very very traditional arts and crafts low buildings Traditional costumes. They're shagging like rabbits. You can marry five people. They're all slightly high on these beetle nuts and stuff It's just paradise. So my favorite memory of Thailand was not being in Thailand

Right, right, right. Did you want to try this? No. Did you try this yet? No. Do you want to grab one of them before it goes away? I don't like artichoke. Sure.

I'm the worst kind of vegan. I don't like most vegetables. Isn't that a terrible thing? How do you do it? Because I grew up on meat and potatoes. I'm very working class. Okay. Wait, how did you land on veganism then? I just thought life was going too well. I need something else to hate. There's no drugs and drink anymore. I'm faithful. Food was the only joy left. I don't smoke anymore. I thought, let's take that away. Did becoming sober and veganism kind of go hand in hand for you? No, no. I got sober 26 years ago.

I know vegan's like four years old. I'm not a poster boy for anything. I just, I haven't drunk or taken a drug and I've tried to take the benefit of the other things and I lean into it, I lean out. Sometimes I'm fit and I go to the gym a lot and sometimes I really get badly out of shape and the same is true for my spiritual life. So that's why you're not meant to talk about it. But I was hitting 20 years, I think, and I thought I'll post something about it just to give some people hope that it can be done because I couldn't have imagined. Thanks so much. Thank you. I couldn't have imagined...

a minute, a day, when I didn't have drugs in my pocket. I couldn't have imagined a day when I was looking at the world clear-eyed. Who might I be? So I just thought that at that moment I would...

Just offer a snapshot up to other people to try and be a service since I'm not one of the things Thanks so much one of the things you know to explain to people at home because again, it's not secret You can buy the book and read it what it's meant to be about is most drug addicts and alcoholics are wildly self-centered and selfish and so it's about Getting your shit together and trying to be of use to other people trying to be of service to other people and I'm not because sometimes I don't do it much or I don't do it well, and I don't

I'm not helpful to people, I'm not even living the principles much myself. But sometimes I am, and what can be said is since October 5th, 1998, I haven't had a drink or drug, and it was inconceivable to me that I wouldn't be buried with it in my system. Inconceivable. God, that is a... Isn't that great? That's a sexy mushroom, bloody hell. I don't talk about it much because I don't think I do it very well, and there are other people who should talk about it more, but people should know only this from me,

There was no chance. There was just no chance. There was never going to be a life beyond it. And by the way, things are going very well professionally. Things are going fine. I was making money. Things are going fine. In our profession, people put up with anything as long as you produce the goods when they say action. And I don't know what...

It was that I changed, but it was never for anyone else. I was with Emma, who's now my wife. We split up, we got back together again, but it wasn't for anyone else. We didn't have kids yet. She wasn't stupid enough to have kids with someone who was like that. There was just a moment, and I went left instead of right, and people should know you could do it because it was nuts. The first meeting I went to, I ran screaming from all these fucking people. What a mad cult. I'm never doing that again, and I did it the next day, you know.

I mean, I think it's really important to hear that with anything in your life, you know, where you are in that moment does not have to dictate where the rest of your life goes, good or bad. By the way, you're present for terrible things as well. The terrible things I avoided forever. You know, I avoided, when I have friends dying of AIDS, I avoided seeing them, which shames me terribly. I don't avoid death now if people are sick. You know, I don't avoid it. I

And when people have died, to be able to sit with someone and not know what to say but not want to run away either. I was holding my mom's hand as she took a last breath. Me too. It's quite something. My dad was dying. My dad didn't die. My dad's had two quadruple heart bypasses, ten stents, four ablations. Fuck only knows what's holding him together right now. Is he still around? Oh, he's still around. He's swinging the golf club. He misses most of the time, but he's still around. But the first time he was having his heart bypassed, and by the way, this is like...

I don't know, 40 years ago, so the operations were newer and, you know, they weren't quite as successful. There was a risk of me not coming back. I was in the hospital. I remember being there. I was off my head. You know, I said, you know, bye, Dad, good luck, you know, it'll be great. See you in a minute. Went out to the car park, you know, did whatever drug I was doing at the time, you know, but it just, I wasn't present for any of it. Had he died, I still, it would all be a smoky haze to me now. And, but I was with my mum in the hospital and I didn't need to leave the room all the time to go and,

you know, pull over the car just to top up whatever blurry existence. I often think of it in terms of camera focus. I felt like I needed to be underwater all the time. I needed to see the sky just through water. And if I ever came to the surface and put my head out, I just needed to go back down again. I needed to go back down. I didn't want to see the world clearly. Some people were binge drinkers or binge druggies. No, I needed permanently to be out of focus. Yeah.

And now I can't bear it if I'm even slightly out of focus. Yeah. So interesting. Well, I'm really, I mean, is it weird to say I'm proud of you? No, it is weird. I'll tell you why it's weird. Because I tried constantly for years, couldn't ask for help. And so you can't be proud of me. I didn't do anything. I had to go somewhere and go, I'm an idiot. And I'm the last person that should be in charge of myself. You tell me what to do. Yeah.

So it's everyone else that needs congratulating. Before we wrap this up, I want to talk a little bit about, because we share a mutual friend in common, Martha Plimpton, who plays my wife, and here we are. She is a force. She is incredible. She's a force of nature on and off stage. She's quite something. I've been friends with her for quite some time. The first job I did with her was at Midsummer Night's Dream at the Delacroix Theatre in the park. She was Hermia? I'm guessing she was Hermia. No.

- She was, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. She wasn't. Who are the two lovers? It's Helena and-- - Helena and Hermia are the two women. Hermia's the short one. - Hermia. - I'm guessing she wouldn't be the tall one. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Sorry, Martha. - Hi, how are you? - Hey, chef. - It's absolutely delicious. Thank you so much. It was superb. Thank you. - Thank you. - Really great. - This has been delicious. - So this is a vegan-treated soup. Only took us nearly like about, I think, five months.

Wait, are you saying that people came here for the previous five months and had awful tiramisu? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the awful tiramisu. Okay, good, good. My God. It's been on for so long. Superb. This is incredible. Thank you very much. It's one of the best tiramisu's I've ever had. I need independent verification. There's no way this is vegan because it tastes so good. It's incredible. Wow. Fabulous. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Marth of Plimpton.

That film we did together was one of the most intense experiences I've ever had. Mass is such an incredible film. Martha showed it to me. It was during COVID, so it was at Sundance, I believe, and they didn't... I can't remember. It was at some festival. Yeah, it was a festival. And Martha sent me the link because I think the festival was actually not happening. Oh, that's right. It was an online link for Sundance. That's right, yeah. And so she sent me the link, and I watched it twice. I watched it once, and I showed it to my husband. I was like, you have to watch this film.

It is such an incredible, powerful film. Well, it's funny enough, it overlaps what we're talking about. It's a film about the power of forgiveness and how carrying resentment against someone else just poisons you. It's like trying to kill someone by drinking your own poison. And I think people mistook it thinking it was a heavy film, although it was about school shootings. It's not, really. It's about forgiveness. That's the excuse for them to have hatred. It could have made a car pile up, you know, bad driving. It's about...

And Martha bodied that so, I don't know, amazingly. But yeah, it's one of the most extraordinary, maybe it's the most extraordinary film I've been in because it's about something I believe in. It leaves you with something, you know, so great. I love it and I want people to see it. And if a few people listening find it, I think I've done my job. People should come and see your play. We're going to find you a ticket. I don't get a promise from you before I leave because I'm going to see Martha in like a half hour. Of course I'm coming.

Of course I'm coming. She's going to ask when. I tried to see her last play she did here. I'm seeing it. She's a great, she's incredible. She was amazing in the last play. That was the Shakespeare, right? The play's the Shakespeare. Yeah, yeah.

I was in a play at the Almeida once and my voiceover agent at the time said, oh, can you get me a free ticket? I said, darling, I'll get you a free road. She went, oh, come on, you've got five stars in the Independent. You're always down on yourself. I went, it's boring. Don't come, it's boring. I'm telling you, I can feel the audience all unwrap the same crinkly sweets at the same time. It's not a good play. I wish I hadn't done it. She goes, you always say stuff like that. I said, you want a ticket? I'll get you a ticket.

So I get her a ticket, and we do the play. It is roughly sold out. People clap at the end and stuff, and the odd idiot stands up. And I come out, and I can't find her. And the barman goes, oh, your friend left you this note. She left it half time. She goes, you didn't tell me it was this shit. Oh, she left it. She was right, by the way. But it's still her. It's still crushed. I warned her. Now, listen, if I really don't want someone to see this show, if I'm not proud of something, I will say you can absolutely miss this one. Save your money. Save your time.

But you do need to come see Harry Potter. I'm dying to see it. I love a musical. I love all musicals. I am the gayest straight man you'll ever meet. All of my playlists are show tunes. You're right up my alley. Oh, we're getting into double entendre territory now. Let's turn these cameras off and really get things started.

You're not eating very much. I'm wolfing this down. It's so good. I look at how much I've eaten. I'm unquestionably coming back to this restaurant. Do they always have nothing on the menu? Is it just one thing? No. It's a special price. We chose very well. You come back here. You pay next time, but this time dinner's on me. Oh, well, thanks so much. I never carry cash anyway. Me and the rest of the royal family. This episode of Dinner's on Me was recorded at Tendril in London, Soho.

Next week on Dinner's On Me, you know her from The Goonies, Raising Hope, and more recently, she plays my wife. And here we are on stage. It's Martha Plimpton. We get into tackling stage nerves, the unexpected gigs she picked up between roles, and her deep connection with River Phoenix.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. ♪

Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and A Kid Named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our producer in the UK is Grace Laker. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale Sheik composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison.

Special thanks to Tamika Balance-Kalasny and Justin Mikita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.