JOSHUA JACKSON — on losing his Topanga home and starting over with his daughter
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Hey, everybody, it's Hoda Kotb, and I would love for you to join me for new episodes of my podcast, Making Space. Each week, I'm having conversations with authors, actors, speakers, and dear friends of mine, folks who are seeking the truth, compassion, and self-discovery. I promise you will leave these talks stronger and inspired to make space in your own life for growth and change. To start listening, just search Making Space wherever you get your podcasts, and

and follow for new episodes every Wednesday. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you know him from TV shows like Dawson's Creek, The Affair, and Ryan Murphy's new medical drama, Dr. Odyssey. It's Joshua Jackson. And I hear the gong go off. What does that mean? I come out of the toilet, and now every executive from the WV has come from every office everywhere and is just standing there staring at me and James and Katie and Michelle as we're like,

Oh, this is where they eat us, I guess. This is like, what happens now? This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

Last year, I was asked to present an award at the Emmys. Now, I hadn't been to the Emmys since Modern Family was last nominated, so walking back into that world felt surreal. Kind of like a college student crashing a high school prom because they were someone else's plus one. I recognized the venue, but not a lot of the faces. The shows were all new. The people were all younger and somehow more beautiful. And I swear, I swear the lighting was crueler.

Then Justin and I ran into Joshua Jackson. Now, Josh and I go back a bit. We became friendly after running into each other a bunch during his time on the show The Affair. Fun fact, I originally introduced myself to Josh because Justin wanted to meet him. Justin was, and still is, a huge Dawson's Creek fan. I mean, who isn't a little bit Team Pacey, right?

now if you know me you know i get a little socially weird on red carpets i never know how to pose i don't know what to do with my hands i'm like do i look candid or should i look like i'm you know seeing a falcon in the distance i don't know i don't know what to do but seeing josh there was such a relief he's one of those rare hollywood unicorns who's actually laid back he's grounded and he gives you the vibe that he just helped someone move a couch that morning

Anyway, I shouldn't have been surprised to see him at the Emmys that year because his face was literally on every billboard in Los Angeles promoting his new show, Dr. Odyssey. Like, you couldn't drive 10 feet without seeing his handsome, mysterious doctor stare. It was like he'd legally adopted half of Sunset Boulevard. He's coming. He's coming. He's early. Hi. How are you? Good to see you. Good to see you, too.

I brought Joshua Jackson to Tatsu Ramen off Melrose. Although I should say Joshua brought me. Tatsu is one of his go-to spots in LA, and you could tell because he has his ramen order ready to go.

LA has long been a battleground for top-tier ramen, with influences from Tokyo-style shoyu to rich, Hakata-style tonkatsu. And Tatsu holds its own with its signature bold ramen and customizable bowls. So whether you're a purist craving a silky, slow-simmered pork broth...

or a plant-based eater looking for a stellar vegan option, Tatsu is a must visit for noodle lovers. There's something so undeniably comforting about slurping up a steaming bowl of ramen with its rich broth. Now, I'm so glad we picked a cozy lunch spot because as we jump in,

Josh has had a difficult few months. He's picking up the pieces after losing his home in the Palisades fire in January. And just a heads up, but I might sound off mic for a minute or two. Of course, my mic battery died right when we got into it. Okay, let's get to the conversation. In ways that I wouldn't have chosen, there's actually a lot of beauty in this thing that's just happened. Because the house itself is my childhood home. And every...

Nook and cranny, every board of that house was infused with some memory or piece of me. And I'm actually excited now to build a house for my daughter and I that is less burdened by my history and will be the place for her where all of her memories and our life together will be built. That house is where my family lived when my parents were still together.

The reason I left is because my parents got divorced. I then bought that house back from the man who had bought it for my father. And I lived in it for all of these years, and I kind of closed all of these loops in my life. The first one being the, like, taking away of this thing and the divorce. Second one being just a place for me in the world. As you know, as an actor, you're all over the place, right? And so to actually have, even when I wasn't there, which was a lot of the time, to know in the back of my head, like, I have a place to go to was very necessary. Yeah.

And then it is, it's held everything, right? The joys, the sadness, the love, the heartbreak, everything in my life has in some way been tangentially connected to that place. But the last loop that it closed

After my parents got divorced, my father disappeared. Essentially. It took a little while, but then he was just gone. So the final loop that the house closed for me was I, for the first time, experienced the love of a father in that house. Right? And I experienced it, obviously, from the other side. Yeah. But in many ways, like, the house gave everything it could possibly give to me. I mean, really, truly. Right? Yeah. And...

The opportunity now, closing all those loops to start again and have it be her place rather than dad's place that she lives in is something that I really am liking about that. Well, I mean, it's certainly a great way of looking at something that is kind of insurmountable. I mean, it's a it is a big problem. It's going to be difficult for the next couple of years.

But what it is, is inarguable, right? When I first went to go see the house, it was the day after it burned down. It was literally still smoldering, right? I wanted to go see it because I didn't know what my reaction to it was going to be. And so I'm standing in front of this thing and, you know, I didn't know. I'm like, am I going to fall down and cry, tear my hair out? And what the experience actually was is that's not my house. That's just a bunch of shit that burned in a fire because it is reduced to ashes and rubble, right? Yeah.

And there's something liberating about the finality of that. I think if I was in a situation where it had been scorched or half the house had been burned or there had been smoke, but there's nothing. It is gone. It truly is. It's ash. Gone, gone, gone. Have you seen anything you recognize?

Well, the big thing that I was looking for, the reason that I bought the house is because of this mural on the wall, this hippie dragon that was painted by my mother's friend for me when I was a kid. Okay. And it's what struck up the conversation between me and Arnie, the then owner. And I was hopeful to find...

a piece of it. And I did. In kind of a weird abstraction, a piece of the wing, something glass had fallen on it and then melted on it. And it preserved it kind of in amber as everything around it burned. So there's a piece of that and that I'm happy to be able to take forward into the other house.

The other things, it all looks like it's been through a fire. Right. And I don't know that I want to carry that forward into whatever the new space is going to be. Right. So this was a house that was your childhood home. You were born in Vancouver, but you moved to this house in Topanga when you were how old? Two and a half, three years old. Oh, wow. So it's like really the house you remember. Exactly. It's where my brain turned on. So where or the recording portion of my brain turned on. And we didn't live there for that long, but it is...

all of my simple childhood memories of my parents being together. We had a golden lab. It was that we were out in the country. It was that life, right? And from that moment forward was the introduction of difficulty, which is parents splitting up and moving quite a bit and then ultimately ending up in Vancouver, which is a better place. I'm happy that we ended up back there. It was a better place for me to be raised. But it always represented...

In the years that I wasn't in it, it always represented this kind of idyllic recollection of early childhood. And in the years since I bought it back from him, it has been...

all of those things. It has been the reclaiming of that power from my father who kind of snatched it from us. And then, like I said, a place for me to go. And it has, you know, lived and grown with me over the years. But it is also a place that I bought when I was 20, did the major redesign when I was 25. Like, I probably won't put a circular jet tub in my bedroom. Is that what you did? Oh, yeah. That's something a 20-year-old would do. He's like, you know what I need? 20-year-olds should not be in charge of blueprints. Absolutely. Absolutely not. Like,

I'm amazed that was the worst choice that I've made given all the options on the table. Yeah. It's really incredible that you were able to go back and was it just that one guy who lived in the house between the time your parents left and the time you bought it back? Yeah. And it was a complete accident. The,

The short version of the story is I was in Topanga for a wedding. The day after the wedding, with an early childhood friend of mine from that era of my life was like, you know what? I want to go see the old house. Let's go walk across the field. And as we were walking across the field, the guy was standing there. And my friend, God bless him, said, you know, this is my friend Josh's old house. And I called up to him. I was like, I put that sticker in that window when I was a kid. And he said, oh, you mean in the dragon room. And so I'm like, the dragon room? Charging across the field, get up to the front door.

Because it's Topanga, he said yes to this question, which is like, hey, can I come in and see your house? And he takes me on a tour of the house, which is just like, even his things are in the places that our things were. So it's like a mausoleum to my childhood. And we get to the dragon. And I said to him, I can't believe this is still on the wall. And verbatim, he said to me, I knew it meant a lot to somebody and that they were going to come back for it someday. Yeah. That's incredible. And then he sold it to me the next day. Was he wanting to sell? Nope. Hi, guys. Hi.

Hi, how are you? I'm good. How are you guys doing? Very good. My name is Daltheus. I'll be taking your order today. You've eaten here before. Do you get the same thing every time you come? Yeah, I'm going to have a bold ramen, side of white rice, and extra noodles, please. Wait, what did you just get? Because that's not what I saw. I got the spicy ramen. You got the spicy ramen. Yeah.

I'm going to do the red ramen. Okay. And can we get some of the pickled cucumbers? Yes, for sure. Of course. Awesome. Excellent. Thank you. So, okay, wait. So the guy was not wanting, he wasn't even thinking about selling the house and he decided to sell it to you. Yeah. So we ended up spending the rest of the afternoon together. And the bulk of the conversation was he had been told by my father that

that my mother was this horrible woman and was abandoning her children and he is a Brooklyn dude, son of a single mom and it bugged him and so I set him straight. It was like, actually it's the reverse and raised by my mom and...

At the end of it, just kind of on the spur of the moment, and I'm 20 years old at this point, right? And for him, just some dickhead literally who walked in off the street. He didn't know who you were. He didn't know. He's not a Dawson's Creek fan. No. Okay. He was a retired baseball player. He was a pitcher. Oh, wow. And so at the end, I said, hey, man, look, this is going to sound crazy, but if you ever consider selling this house, will you give me a call? Because I don't know if I could afford it, but I'd like to know that I tried. Okay.

And so we exchanged phone numbers and then I left and went back to where the wedding was and told my mom and was like, "Mom, you'll never believe what I just did. I was in the old house, da da da." And the next morning I'm driving, literally about to get on a plane and go head east back to Dawson's Creek and I get a call from Arnie. He's like, "Hey, were you serious about trying to buy this house?"

And I was like, well, yeah. He goes, well, is that a possibility? I said, well, the part of my CV that I left out last night is for the first time in my life, I have money. So maybe, I don't know, what would the price be? And he told me the price. I was like, yeah, I think I can do that. And he goes, okay, it's yours. And he sold it to me the next day. It's such a moving story. I really find that incredibly moving. And the fact that, you know, you do have this opportunity to rebuild after it was taken away from you. You know, it just, it's really very moving.

Again, I wouldn't have chosen any of this, right? This is not how I would have picked to do a remodel of the house. But there is something...

In that first week, in the shell shock of it, and it was, as you can imagine, hugely stressful. I have a young daughter, just trying to, like, I literally had a sweatsuit and a pair of... Yeah, talk me through that day. You were at the house, obviously. No, so thankfully, I was working. So my last experience of the house, and even more importantly, my daughter's last experience of the house, was a normal morning. We got ready for school. It was a beautiful, bright, sunny day. No stress. Get out to school. Oh, wow.

Also, thankfully, that was a custodial transfer day, so her mom was going to be picking her up anyway. So I then went to work, and the Palisades fire broke out. And over the course of the day, there was the conversation like, Josh, do you need to leave? Do you need to leave? And I was like, you know, Palisades, in the scheme of things, is far enough away from Topanga. And then at like 6 or 7 o'clock, we got the news that it was on the PCH. And I was like, oh, shit. So I went to stay at my friend's place.

and had a neighbor up there who I was in contact with and was watching. There's a fire cam, so I could see... You can't see my house from the fire cam, but I could see her place and a couple of neighbors' places, and I could see at night just the fire marching up. Yeah. And then in the morning, I saw the first helicopter they were able to get in the air actually saved my neighbor's house. I watched it drop. Oh, wow. Like, she was just about to be on fire, and then everything dropped, and so...

For a brief moment, I was like, well, choppers are in the air. It's in the canyon. And then a couple hours later, a friend of mine who was up there sent me a picture saying, man, I'm so sorry I didn't make it. So that's how you found out. Yeah. Yeah. Living in a place like that, you prepare yourself emotionally for this as a possibility. Right. And in the moment, it is disassociative, right? It's too enormous a thing to really sink your teeth into. Right. But I found a place to live.

Basically on day one, it took a little while to negotiate, but found a place that's close to her school. So life will start to get a little bit more peaceful. My oldest son's about your daughter's age. What does she understand about all this? Has she been able to talk about it? Yeah, I'm astonished at her...

Her resiliency in the face of this. So that first week she was with her mom, which is great. And that first week, another one of her mom's friends lost his place. So the concept was introduced to her of loss, that this was a possibility. So I think she had the general sense that something was up. And then when she came back, you know, I was very stressed about telling her.

And when she came back, so I went and picked her up from her mom's, I brought her back to the new place and said, you know, this is where we're going to be living, but I do have something I need to tell you. The house did burn down. And she starts crying as one, you know, which is, I think, healthy. And...

And then I say, but I just want you to know we're okay, right? Everybody's safe. And we have this place to live. And daddy found us another, we're going to move into another house that will be our house. But we are going to rebuild. And we'll move, she calls Topanga, Panga Panga. So we're going to move back to Panga Panga. And also, there's nothing about this that's grown up stuff. So any questions you want to ask me, you can ask me and I'll answer anything that you want.

And she says, you know what, Daddy? I think when we build a new house, we should build water around it because water doesn't burn. I was like, honey, that's a really good idea. And you know what? We should also build it with dirt around it because dirt doesn't burn. I said, you know, these are really good ideas, and I want to remember them. So I'm going to get my notebook, and I want you and I to just sit here and talk about things we should do in the new house. And for the next hour, myself, my mother, my sister, and my daughter just sat there.

and went around in a circle and spitballed, and I have the notes, and that's something I'll probably frame and put up in the new house. She just assimilated all the information, and it was like, okay, that's what that is, and that's all right. I'm just so... I'm not going to be able to let go of this story for a while, but I'm so moved by the fact that you had this home as a kid, experienced your own trauma in a way with your parents divorcing you,

reclaim the space and now you're ushering your your daughter through the same sort of complicated feelings of loss I think that's really incredibly powerful yeah I agree one of the things that has really struck me about my experience in that house it's this this concept of closing loops right yeah yes there is going to be pain yes there is going to be loss yes there is trauma there's

There's no way through this life that this stuff doesn't happen, but you can be okay on both sides. You can feel safe and supported and loved and nurtured and taken care of and all those things. I'm not certain that she'll have really clear memories of this time, but I'm certain that she'll have clear emotional recollection of like, am I okay? Not the way I would have chosen it, but there is a...

brutal but beautiful lesson about resiliency for her here. This is a hard thing, just like her experience of me and Jodi's divorce. This is a hard thing that you are not responsible for. This house burning down is a difficult thing that you are not responsible for. And we can't change that. It's gone. But we can choose now how we're going to go about

responding to this hard thing. Yeah, it's really incredible. And obviously your kids' trauma and emotions are going to always be the first thing you try and protect. But, you know, there also has to be self-preservation in that as well. And being able to negotiate both those things and sort of being sandwiched in between them is very hard. I know I've experienced that myself. Tell me if this experience tracks for you as a dad. I am surprised. And I think somebody had said this to me, but

I probably brushed it off or didn't really understand it. I am surprised at how much of the experience of fatherhood is self-healing. Oh my God, yes. Right? Yeah. I knew that as a, you know, people are like, well, you're really parenting yourself, you're reparenting, all these things.

But until you're experientially in them, or at least for me, I didn't really get that until, frankly, some difficult things happen or the divorce happens. And it's like, oh, right. You have no prior experience of this. So for you, this is tabula rasa, right? And it's my job shared with my ex-wife to do everything that we can to nurture you, cultivate you, and give you all the tools that you need in life.

But man, it is not lost on me that I'm getting an opportunity to experience a father's love in a way that I never experienced it. And especially in the face of these hard things. Right. My father's my father's response to difficulty was to run away. Right. And instead of doing that, I have the opportunity to give my daughter the opposite experience, which is like, hey, there are going to be hard things, really hard things.

but you don't run from them, right? And you are better off for having faced them. And that is a, I mean, it's an important life lesson, but it is such a tremendously self-healing thing to be able to continue to show up. So I am for sure going to have some kind of emotional collapse here in the next couple of weeks as I get through work, the move, and things get a little bit simpler.

But I have been surprised so far. It's been really, these last two months, really these last six months, they've been really difficult times. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have a lot of friends who are co-parenting right now and going through a divorce and heartbreak. And it seems like there's a generational thing where I think enough people are recognizing that we have to figure this out. I see a lot more people just trying to figure it out rather than

do what your father did, which is, you know, run away from it. Yeah, I think, I mean, particularly for men, right? Yeah. In our generation, it was always the women who raised the kids. Yeah. And the men were kind of optional. Yeah, yeah. And I do think for a lot of men, you know, as I am now a grown man with a child, I have my father, who I never became close with, also passed away.

And I find myself for the first time with a great deal of sympathy for him because the pain that he must have lived with to have four children in the world and essentially no relationship with any of them. Yeah. It would like if my daughter, if I, if I ever did anything to estrange my daughter from myself, I would be. Oh, shame. I think about my kids not wanting to be around me. And I was like, that's the most devastating thing I could ever imagine. Yeah, exactly. Like I actually can't,

conceive of it because I can't even I don't even want to think of the pain that that would be right regardless of how messy the divorce is beautiful the divorce is easy hard the co-parenting is by and large I think this generation of dads is is understanding like I need to be here it's going to be hard but I this is important and I've got to do this and for me there's not a there's no other option right there's not a it's it is

It is the great and beautiful purpose of my life, right? It is the single organizing principle of everything that I do over the course of the last four and a half years has been like, how can I be of best service to this developing entity that I have this beautiful and terrible responsibility to? Right, right.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Joshua tells me how hanging out at his mom's office after school led to an acting career and a bizarre casting ritual for Dawson's Creek. Okay, be right back. All right, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart.

Building the perfect sandwich. And yes, yes, I take this very seriously. Step one, you need a great bread. Fresh, crusty, something with character. Step two, Boar's Head Oven Gold Turkey. Always. It's juicy. It's flavorful. It's the backbone of this operation. Step three, a few slices of Boar's Head Smoke Master Ham because I like to mix it up.

It adds a slow-smoked beechwood flavor that makes your taste buds just, you know, do a little dance. Step four, cheese. Sharp cheddar if I'm feeling bold, creamy Swiss if I'm feeling fancy. Step five, a swipe of Dijon, crisp lettuce, thin sliced tomato, and maybe a pickle or two, you know, for drama.

All right, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart.

Building the perfect sandwich. And yes, yes, I take this very seriously. Step one, you need a great bread. Fresh, crusty, something with character. Step two, Boar's Head Oven Gold Turkey. Always. It's juicy. It's flavorful. It's the backbone of this operation. Step three, a few slices of Boar's Head Smoke Master Ham because I like to mix it up.

It adds a slow-smoked beechwood flavor that makes your taste buds just, you know, do a little dance. Step four, cheese. Sharp cheddar if I'm feeling bold, creamy Swiss if I'm feeling fancy. Step five, a swipe of Dijon, crisp lettuce, thin sliced tomato, and maybe a pickle or two, you know, for drama.

Layer it all up, cut it in half diagonally, obviously, and you got a sandwich that's perfectly crafted thanks to Boar's Head. Every bite tastes like it was made with care because it was. So if you're ready to level up your sandwich game, trust me, start at the deli counter. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli counter. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

And we're back with more Dinners on Me. And your mom was a casting director, is that right? Yeah. Well, my mom was a lot of things. Where she ended up was casting director, but she basically was first woman at all of her positions. Really? Yeah. And it was because she was involved in the industry that I imagine you were given your first opportunities. Yeah. Well, I mean, she's actually the reason why I got my first job. Which was, I technically...

Was that Mighty Ducks or something before that? My first real job, which is Crooked Hearts, in 1989 came from... My mom was a single mom. Her casting assistant, Sandy, was a single mom. And so myself and Sandy's son, Ryan, would often be, as kind of latchkey kids, in the office.

and they were trying to cast the on-camera younger versions of Pete Berg and Noah Wiley. And after going through round after round after round of professional kid, somebody in the office was like, "Well, what about those two yahoos?" - Yeah. - And so that was literally my first gig.

Right place, right time. That's what they always say, Josh. Exactly. That's how it happened. A little OG Nepo babyism. Isn't that right? You were the very first Nepo baby. And that was it. A few short years later, here we are. Yeah, right. This is delicious, by the way. Right? So good. But Mighty Ducks was probably the first thing that people would recognize you from. Definitely the first thing people would recognize me from. And also was the first...

I think I worked on Crooked Hearts for a total of like seven days. And it was definitely, I was not in a career mode at that point. And so the producer of that movie, Crooked Hearts, then did a play in Seattle. He did a professional adaptation of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. And so I got to go down and play Charlie Bucket. And the casting director from Crooked Hearts, who had since become an agent, came up to see the play, to see another actor in the play, and instead decided to sign me up.

And so suddenly I was 13 years old and had an agent at William Morris. No. It was William Morris? Yes. Just the biggest agency. Yeah. And then from that started like a quasi real actor's life, you know, semi-regular auditions and things like that. And that's where Mighty Ducks came from. Right. I feel like if I remember correctly, because I mean, we're roughly, I'm a little older than you, but Mighty Ducks was sort of like a known thing, right? Or was it?

Was it a story? What was it based on? No, no. It's back in the days when you used to make original content. It was original? Yeah. Steve Brill, the writer, it was his brainchild.

But then it takes on this massive second life when Disney decides to be like, well, we have this IP, so we should buy a hockey team and we'll name it this. So the first movie happened, I think if you had like a 6 to 12 year old child at that time, you would have known it. But it probably would have fallen by the wayside had it not been for the fact that then they bought the NHL franchise and then we became part of the...

The franchising of the IP. Right, so that's why I'm thinking it was a thing because they did that very well, obviously. Disney has a... They're pretty good at that. They know what they're doing, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I ever told you this. I might have told you in passing at some point, but did you know I auditioned for Dawson's Creek? I did not. Really? For the role of... I don't know if you know this character, Dawson.

You know, little known fact, I also auditioned for the role of Dawson. Did you really? Yeah. Listen, I didn't even get a call back. It was like a pre-screen before the pre-screen. So when I say, like, people, if they're going to mistakenly say, like, I was, like, almost offered the role, that's just not true. But I think we should start that role. I think, in fact— It was between me and James. And, in fact, I think you turned it down. Yeah, I did turn it down in order to make it for him. Yeah.

I had other things that I wanted to do, like my bye-bye birdie at St. Pius X High School. I remember at the time thinking, oh, that's the one that got away. And I'm like, no, you really were not. I have to remind you, Jesse, you were not in consideration for this part in any real sort of sense of the word. I think I had like nine auditions for, I think first for Pacey, then for Dawson, then back to Pacey.

And then when I made it to the final, final, final thing, they take you to the Warner Brothers Ranch. I don't even know if this place exists anymore. And the WB had this like Quonset hut basically off on the side. And when you walk in, there's a giant gong and a woman at the desk whose job it is to say WWW every time she answers the phone. I shit you not. Yeah.

And in that room are 35 potential kids who are now like put into this Hunger Games moment. And you spend literally the entire day getting called in groups, right? Going like, okay, you two, you four, getting taken back to the room. You audition and then you come out and they've just like four people are just gone. And then two people are gone. And so over the course of the day, and I'm talking about an entire day, like from sun goes down, you are still there.

And then the final cut down, I use the washroom and I hear the gong go off. What does that mean? I come out of the toilet and now every executive from the WB has come from every office everywhere and is just standing there staring at me and James and Katie and Michelle.

as we're like oh this is where they eat us i guess it's like what happens now they put us in the in the pot and they're like congratulations you just got the job not i didn't actually i don't even think i knew which role it was that i had finally auditioned for they were just like you you you you and that's how they used to do their castings you were the chosen if you hit the gong everybody has to scurry out of the office to get whatever the news is and i would like to think at some point

Somebody there was like, this is not great. This is weird. This is weird. It's already weird enough. Exactly. This is already uncomfortable. Let's just make it one step weirder. Exactly. Why? Also, let's not make this poor woman say WWW every time she answers the phone. Oh my God, that's incredible. Did you have a sense that that was going to be something that would change your life? I mean, I was too young to have any taste. So I don't, I wouldn't have read it and been like, Ooh, this is, this is great.

I did not have any concept of like, well, you might come back and do this for six years. Right. It just did not occur. I remember finishing the pilot, going home. I don't think I thought about it again. I didn't know what upfronts were. I didn't know, like it just,

all of it was just meaningless to me. The whole circus that goes around. Yeah, for sure. And then I got the call like, hey, you need to be in North Carolina in 10 days. Well, and that's the other thing. I mean, you did get to sort of then go into a bubble and shoot the show. Yeah, which was also very, in retrospect, very necessary. We shot the entire first season before a single episode aired. Oh, wow. So you did shoot in a bubble. Yeah. And so you have the core cast, but then all of the people get sent to us every week and

On the weekends, everybody parties together, goes out drinking together, eats together, barbecues together. We're like, okay, now, new episode. What are we going to do today? Yeah. I'm sure there was pressure on somebody at some level, but I had no concept of what it was. Like, I was astonishingly appreciative of the paycheck and the change that that made in my life.

And I really, you know, I always enjoyed acting and performing. And so I was also astonished that I was like, "Hey, I have this, I can do this." - Right. - This is, I'm being allowed to do this every day. But the broader implications of what was, what could possibly happen never even occurred to me. - Okay, if you shot the first, the whole first season in a bubble,

From what I remember, it was very popular right away. I mean, the first season was kind of a huge deal. Katie was on the cover of Rolling Stone, like, I don't know, four or five months after the show came out, and that was when it was like, huh. Yeah, I mean, you were hosting SNL. That came a couple years later, but... But still, it's in the zeitgeist. Yeah, it was definitely...

It was in the zeitgeist also, Kevin Williamson was kind of the whole zeitgeist, at least for younger people at that moment. And that his style of rapid fire, very intelligent dialogue was very much the moment. And I remember being actually here, right, at the end of the first season, during the off season, and...

Being at the DMV trying to get my California driver's license and having a guy like pitch me a script and try to tell me about his Friday night, whatever party I should come to. And just having this reaction of like, I've got to go home. This is not like... Home being Vancouver? Yeah. Six months ago, this man would not have pissed on me if I was on fire. And now I'm like getting the full sales pitch and I'm not...

I'm not built for that. I don't want that. And so I did. I went home for basically the entire off-season and just enjoyed the silliness of my youth. How old were you when the show started? I was either 18 when we shot the pilot and 19 when we shot the first season or 19 when we shot the pilot and 20. But I was very young. Yeah, you were young. Yeah, really young.

And so I had that full off season and also the show didn't air in Canada yet. So I kind of gave myself this additional bubble of time before coming back into the second season. And then, yeah, it was like there were it was wild there for a couple of years. It was also the era, and I know this because I own some of these magazines, but like, you know, the Teen Beat magazines and like basically it was...

like the tabloids, but for kids. And, you know, you would have the covers, you'd have to pull out poster size, the Jonathan Taylor Thomas, you know, you'd have the posters of the NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys. Yes, there are some deeply embarrassing photographs of me from that era. I'm sure, yeah. So it was like, you know, I guess, you know, we always evolve and like fame is on a whole other level now with social media, but it just felt for me that there was a frenzy around,

kids that age who were popular? Like if you were of that generation? Well, I think it was the convergence of a couple things, but before the emergence of a couple other things. Because it was the beginning of the internet era, right? So kids who were, were able to connect with each other in ways that they had never been before. I'm sure there was a Dawson's Creek AOL chat room. I'm

And you started it. I might have moderated it, but yeah. But yeah, for sure there was, right? And so I think that was a big part of the zeitgeist that we hit. But then also there was, you know, we were coming to the end of a cultural moment, right? We were coming out of the 90s of the Gen X era.

and we were at the beginning of the millennials' time. We were coming out of the Clinton eras into Bush and then into 9-11, right? There was a lot... There was this big kind of shift in the culture here, right, that we were a part of. And...

in the same way that it seems like every generation or even half generation needs to have that show, like the show that is for young people that's really talking to the older people but is actually for the young people that doesn't talk down to them, right? I think if I look back on the show and I think of like what is the thing that actually made it successful, it's that Kevin wrote those characters from a place of like fellow traveling and love, right?

That they weren't the precocious teen and that, you know, that he wasn't writing stereotypes and archetypes. He was writing kids that he grew up with or, you know, pieces of himself that didn't get to get expressed. Yeah. And so I think it was written from a, mostly from a non-cynical place. Right. Yeah. And we're in a deeply cynical era now. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then who knows why things, some things work and take off and other things don't, but we definitely caught lightning in a bottle. Yeah. Yeah.

I imagine that you all, I mean, I know the Modern Family cast felt this way, but just when you're a part of something that's so big and so many people are looking at it and you're sort of experiencing this life-changing moment together, you bond in a very unique way that I don't think anyone else has.

could possibly penetrate. Like, I have to imagine that you and specifically the four stars of that show went through an incredibly intense moment of bonding. It forges you. And even, like, James is going through something really, truly terrible right now. And...

And I wish I could take credit for this, but I was kind of the absentee partner here. But the girls all got together and were like, we need to do something to help this guy out. Because this is... Even whether we talk to each other all the time, Busy and Michelle are very, very close. Yes. Katie and I are very close. But whether we're...

I'm sure it's the same with your cast. It's not a daily call. Sometimes it's not a weekly or a monthly or even a half yearly call. But when you're together, A, there's always that like, I know you know. Yeah. And B, there is, you know, these moments, like these major moments in life are like...

Other than your husband, there's probably no other people in your life that you are that forged to 100% because you had to go through good and bad and happy and fuck you and don't talk to me. And I love you. And life changes. And then, yeah. And then you, you guys ran for nine, 11, fuck. I know. Oh my God. That's almost two Dawson's creeks. That is two Dawson's creeks. Yeah. Holy shit. Um,

Wow, that is astonishing. Yeah, it was a lot. But yeah, like everything... Yeah, life happens, right? Everything that can happen happens in the over the course. I love to hear that you all show up for each other. I assume that was the case. Did you see Katie in her play? I did not because I was working. Yeah, she was great. I don't know her. Katie and John McGinty, who was in that play too. Yeah, yeah. But every time I've...

I met someone who works with her, just speaks so highly of her. Yeah, she's lovely. I got to meet Michelle on a plane, and she's sweet and busy. She's a very good friend of mine, so I kind of know Michelle through her. But you were very, it seemed very fortunate to have a group of people that seemed like really good humans. And they've also grown up to be really decent people, too. I mean, I think it speaks to a part of the reason that the show was successful, that you had...

And look, I was an absolute lunatic in my late teens and early 20s and I enjoyed every possible thing I could enjoy. And also took my job very seriously and didn't want to be an asshole. And this is also part of being in Wilmington, right? It's like, we expect you to come here and do this.

And then if there's fun to be had on the outside, you can do that too. But this has to come first. As opposed to, I think, when you shoot here, it's like there's all this extraneous noise around you. And then you, like, occasionally show up and say some words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been... I have found myself on Odyssey being, like...

I'm now the grumpy old man where cast members will come in and be like, okay, so just so you know, here's how we run this show. Like you, I want you to have a good time. We have a very good time. It's fast and it's loose, but you have to know your fucking words. Yeah. Like we're not going to wait for you. So just, just know like it is professionalism with joy. Yeah. And so long as you come ready and prepared to play, everybody here will embrace you. But if you don't, this is going to be a hard week. Yeah. And if that's good, we're good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Josh tells me about figuring out his career post Dawson's Creek and the hilarious production logistics of Dr. Odyssey. Okay, be right back.

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Back in the day, you were a movie person or you were a TV person. And if you had the luck to be on a successful TV show, generally speaking, that was your shot. And you could maybe pick up work here and there. But this modern era of 50 streamers and 200 things. So on the one hand, I was 24 coming off this very successful show. But looking down the pike of being a stuck pigeonhole, as people get.

But also, I was exhausted and homesick and really needed a break. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to be an actor anymore. And it was actually going to London and doing a play with Patrick Stewart that through the course of that process and feeling that good fear again, I was like, oh, right, no, this is what I do. This is who I am. Which also, I just want to say, is impressive. I assume the last time you were on stage before that was in this infamous Seattle concert.

Yes, it had been a minute. Willy Wonka. Yeah. Yeah. And so then to go from, you know, not really being on stage to then going to the West End. With Patrick Stewart doing Mamet. With Patrick Stewart doing Mamet. And what was the play was A Life in the Theater. A Life in the Theater, yeah. It was really intimidating. It certainly was. Am I wrong? That's a two-hander play. It's just you and Patrick Stewart, right? Yeah, two-hander, one act, yeah. Whoa.

I can imagine how that would certainly reinvigorate. Look, the success of Dawson's was amazing. The training ground of doing it every day and the immediacy of like, yeah, you might get three takes, maybe. But today you might get one take. Actually, one of my all-time favorite pieces of direction, Steve Miner, may he rest in peace. Doing a scene, Steve Miner's directing, and he was clearly not happy with something that James was doing. He's like, James, look.

You've got to have a thought, right? There has to be a thought, an idea to what you're doing here. I mean, look at Josh. He has a thought. It's the wrong thought, but at least it's a thought. And you're hoping that your instincts are good enough to get you through most of it, and then occasionally you sort of apply craft or thought. But most of it is just fly-by-wire because you're going so fast, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

and you're tired and yada, yada, yada. Whereas when you have a rehearsal process and you're sitting down and it's particularly on something as particular as Mammoth, right? Where you're like, no, that's a period, not a comma. And the breath goes here. Exactly. Yeah. I look back with incredible fondness on Dawson's, but would not want to go back into something like that. Yeah. I mean, Odyssey, I guess is...

kind of the same way, but it's a very different thing and I'm in a very different place in my life. But TV as product is a hard thing for me, right? And there were many years where we as a cast were really fighting the, like, this is just a product to get kids to buy stuff part of the show. I wouldn't want to do that again. And something like Odyssey, which is very, like,

glitzy and glad, but, but I don't think we're trying to dupe anybody, right? It is, it feels much more like where, you know, we're like a very shiny soap opera. You come here, hang out, everything's perfect. Everybody looks great. The lighting's always amazing. And you know, we'll do some icky stuff and there'll be a little kissy kissy and then go home happy. It's really fun. I had dinner with Phillipa Sue and Steve Pasquale, her husband, that diva, um,

Like the day after the show premiered. Okay. Interesting. And I hadn't seen it yet. And I was like, how did it go? And she goes, it did really, really well. Connecting. It's fun. It's easy. It's sexy. It's... And I think that second word is... I mean, the fun part is really important. But...

I always fear it sounds like I'm diminishing the show when I say this, but I'm really not. It's easy. Yeah. Right? In a time... When Ryan first called me about this... Ryan Murphy, yeah. Ryan Murphy first called me about this. One of the things that he said, and I've said this elsewhere, but that really was like...

oh man, I would love this. It's like, we've all been collectively like clenched for four years and I want to make the show that lets people exhale. And for where I am in my life and the things that I was going through, I was like, God, that sounds like a joy to me, right? To go and...

Do front footed dialogue, right? Where everything's just a little bit too simple and it's all you always have the right thing to come back with. And sure, there's like drama, but it's never like drama. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it was almost like someone's got a broken day. Exactly. That poor fellow. What a way to get on TV. I know.

Yeah, but exactly. The drama's got someone's got a broken dick or we kill the living Ken doll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in a way, like TV shows from our life when we were kids, at the 42 and a half minute mark, everybody's happy and everything's good. And then just go on about your week, right? You don't need to be taking notes. By the time you come back next week...

It'll be fine. You'll figure it out. Yeah. And it's just such complete fantasy. I mean, even the doctor's office or the medical wing of the ship, it's like the most beautifully lit. It looks like an Amber Combi and Fitch store from like 1997. Like, it's just gorgeous. Gorgeous. Everything. Dim lighting. I'm like, you can't do surgery under this lighting. Oh, but I can. Oh, but you can. Yeah.

I just love it. First of all, the sets are incredible. The sets, the wardrobe, the hair, the makeup. People always ask me with Modern Family, people have been in this business for a long time, like, oh, but you must shoot in real houses. And I was like, no, they're all sets. And even when I was watching this, I was like, oh, well, that can't possibly be a set. They must really be out at sea. No, it's completely, it looks fantastic. Completely make them up. And also, in a way that...

It's fairly rare these days. Like, I haven't worked on a pretty show in a long time. Seriously, like, where the intention was, we're going to make this look slick and glossy and beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ryan, to his great credit, his group of people that he works with over and over and over again that he has trust in is top-notch.

And also he has the wherewithal to say to Disney, "What if?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. What if it had water slides and the water slides worked? Yeah, yeah. And they built this beautiful playground for us that is like sumptuous. I mean, every... I've never worked on a set where you sit on the couches and you actually want to sit down. I mean, seriously, normally it's like, "Oh, God."

And also that the intention is the beauty. - Yeah. - Right? That what we're doing, what the story is, like the slickness is part of the story. - Yeah. - Right? The doctor always knows just exactly the right thing to do at just the right moment. And the wardrobe, we were just doing a scene the other day and we had a literal on set debate. A church, yeah, whatever. A church collapses on my character.

And I come out of the rubble. A church. A whole church. It's a longer story. It's a long story, I'm sure. We've decided to really embrace the religious right. And so I commit an act of sacrilege and I'm punished. But no. No.

And we had a debate of like, well, how much dust actually gets on Max? Right. And does it mess up his hair? Yeah. And the answer is not much and no, it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm literally like, building collapses on me and I'm like. I love that. Yeah. And I'm good to go. 100%. It's so good. Yeah, it's amazing. Wow.

It's amazing. It's a fun romp, and I love it. I'm happier on it. I hope it does get us down to season. Yeah, me too. So you're in the middle of shooting. We're done now. You're done now. Yeah, literally last Friday. How many did you all do? 18. Wow. Yeah, which is also a throwback. We were supposed to do 13. They expanded us to 18, which is nice. But it had been a lot of years since I had done a full season like that. I've always just been very impressed with...

with the way you have reshaped and sort of matured, but also you've done it in a very, I don't know, not every actor can say that they started off, you know, in "The Mighty Ducks" and "Dawson's Creek" and yet still carved out a really interesting career. You're always great. - Not always, but thank you. And look, I was years into doing this before I realized I was allowed, that I was the type of person that was allowed to do this.

And I think partially because of having my mother's counsel, and then also partially because of the... I managed to bump into a lot of good role models early in my career who approached it from the work standpoint rather than like, you can be famous and have all the trappings of this life. And then also, I'm just not of the personality type where to be more famous would be more satisfying. Yeah. And...

I also, I came to the realization at the end of Dawson's, just after I did the play, because I really was burnt out and I really was going through that, like, I don't think I'm any good at this anymore. And then I did the play and it reignited my fire, but it also made me realize, like, I can't do this 100% of the time. So I need to find balance, some kind of balance in my life where the other things that I'm doing are...

filling the well back up so that when I do get an opportunity to go tell a story, I have a little something to say. I met you, I don't know, over a decade ago, just at various Hollywood things when I was doing Modern Family. I think when you were in The Affair, probably, maybe. But I always enjoy seeing you. I think you're such a cool guy. You're so like down to earth and you feel that when...

when you're around. I just, I feel very comfortable around you. So I'm, I was so excited when you said you wanted to do this because I know you don't do a lot of, I don't know if you've ever done a podcast. Have you? I did one this fall, last fall. Well, see, now you're on the podcast train. The, my podcast talking circuit. Yeah, yeah. I'm just honored you trusted me with this long form. Well, can I pay you this compliment as well?

Sure. In many times when you had no reason to be kind or warm or embracing to me, you have always greeted me with warmth, and I really appreciate that. Like genuine warmth. So I'm always happy to see you too. Well, the love is mutual then. And just because of that, dinner's on me. Excellent. Only because of that. It's good that dinner's on you, because just like a fucking actor, I didn't bring my wallet. There you go.

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Tatsu Ramen in Los Angeles, California. Next week on Dinners on Me, you know him from Narcos, Civil War, and most recently from Apple Plus' new show, Dope Thief. It's Wagner Mora. We'll talk about going from journalism to showbiz, improvising Shakespeare with Al Pacino, and so much more.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.

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