Getting Divorced in History Sucks
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Hello everyone, Stuckouji here. And I'm Gabby. And welcome back to the podcast, my hoes. Happy Mother's Day to all of you. And on the way, I'm just going to go ahead and say this. I'm not normally a person who makes big shout outs on things. It's never been a thing that I normally do. Yeah, I know. But I want to go ahead and specify something here right now on this Mother's Day. And that is that for all of you who are listening to this, I want you to please note that

Quite literally none of this would ever have been possible without my wife. And I don't mean just as like a co-host, because technically speaking, a lot of people can be a co-host, but not nearly as many people are as funny as my wife when it comes to reacting to things. Yeah, you think I'm funny. Right there. Exactly what it is that I'm talking about. Primarily, I say this because generally she is the reason behind why this show, me doing anything with social media history is even possible in the first place. She's the one who pushed all of it.

Oh, I bullied you into doing this show. He was like, I'm not going to do a podcast. I'm like, you think you have a choice? Yeah. No, it is the same thing applied to YouTube. The same thing applied to Twitch. The same thing applied to pretty much anything. I am a creature of inertia at many points. I don't move. An object at rest will stay at rest. Pretty much. And that is kind of what happens now. At the same time, if I am working and moving on something, I do not stop. I continue until I actually break down. Um,

An object in motion will stay in motion. You are just throwing it at us. Yeah, literally. That's the whole point for this. But on that note for relationships, we are here to talk about not marriage, but the thing that comes after a marriage has...

Run its course, we will say. A baby in a desperate hope to save it? No, though you can guarantee that at a time before birth control, that is exactly what people were doing constantly in every way. People do that today. I see so many TikToks about it and it never ends well. Poor kid. Anyway, what was I saying? Right, right, right, right. Divorce. Yes, we made a short the other day that covered the evolution of weddings to what they are today. And a lot of people requested that we do, well,

the evolution of that, the history of divorce. And you might be thinking, okay, you're doing a history of divorce. We haven't gotten a history of weddings all in due time. While I know a history of weddings should have been first, my mind was on divorce. So that's what you get today, buddies. But we will circle back at a later date to weddings. I didn't have a wedding. So like I have genuinely zero interest in weddings. We eloped. We got married, not at a courthouse,

The judge at the courthouse was sick that day. We got married at her colleague's house. Which I will say this in the first place has got to be one of the coolest houses that we've ever walked into because this was a museum of sorts. Older black man who had

so much African memorabilia all over his walls. I mean, we were talking all across Western and Eastern Africa. There were so many different masks, totems, like all different kinds of stuff. It was really cool. I don't remember an ounce. I don't remember a smidge of our wedding day. I remember what I was wearing because I looked fine as hell as I usually do. But I have no clue about anything else. I completely dissociated and then, oh, I was married. So...

I will do the history of weddings one day, not today. Yeah, we also didn't want to go $30,000 into debt. Though at the time, you know, probably at the time that we did that. You didn't tell your parents you were married for a month. When we get divorced, you better not tell them for six months. No, you know what? Keep up the trend. Just keep up the trend. In fact, I will too. Oh, I said when. I meant if. Anyway, as she said, we're going to circle back to weddings another day. The thing about divorce, though, is that in modern times, divorce is...

Not something that is out of the ordinary. And this is, of course, due to various different reasons. But we aren't here to talk about the ethics or the morality or the potential causes of divorce, at least not in the modern day and age. And when you look at statistics, we are here to simply discuss how divorce has evolved history to what we have today in the United States and many other countries.

the no-fault divorce. But we're not going to get the no-fault divorce today. No, my friends. We started... I started writing this episode, realized I was in very deep. He took over and he was like, you know what? This is not going to be one episode. This might be three. So buckle up. Let's go from ancient divorce to medieval times to the modern day when I think it was Reagan, Nixon, one of the homies signed a no-fault divorce and...

That's what we're trying to get to. But like, guys, there's so much to...

to go see gabby going in through all this i genuinely find hilarious because it is the exact same problem that i ran into every single time i do a new geopolitical deep dive which is all right guys i'm going to explain this current geopolitical issue that is going down now but how about i explain to you 300 years of context leading up to this in the first place you have to explain the context because people have been getting married and divorced for eons

We're going back to ancient times, dear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of the point. Also, if you hear an echo, we are in our new house. We bought it like two weeks ago. We haven't been able to move in. Sorry, this is a sidebar. We haven't been able to move in because the floors were really bad. So we're getting the floors redone. We have absolutely no kitchen. They ripped the kitchen out like...

a week and a half ago um we're just here they sealed the floors today and if you've ever heard hardwood floors done you would know it stinks but we left the comfy hotel we were staying in because my dog is here and if you know anything about me i can't live without my dog he's like my best friend so i had to come here so he wasn't lonely but it stinks and the house is empty so it's echoing and

And if you guys complain, I'll cry. So please don't complain. I'm sorry. We're trying so hard. Yeah, we are up here hiding in a literal corner of the house. That is exactly what we were doing. It's going horribly. I've cried 50 times today. She has actually cried maybe about 50 times. I did. That would be an accurate statement. I cried in the restaurant. They felt so bad. They sent another waiter over because they were like, oh, she's sobbing because the service is bad. No, I was just.

Well, it was slow because they were busy. I know, but I was just crying for unrelated. It was not restaurant related reasons. I was just crying.

So, moving on from crying to divorce. The earliest known instances of divorce laws or divorce codes come from, can you guess it? Earth legal code in history? Hammurabi. Hammurabi. Hammurabi? Is that what it is? Yeah, the code of Hammurabi. Was he a king? Yes. He sounds very like, everything that I've seen written in his code, he's giving like very like...

hot vibes like morally gray leader like you're married like sorry I read too many books I don't even know how to begin to explain this to you as to how accurate your statement actually is no I was reading the freaking code I was in deep I didn't just read the part about divorce I read about the concubines too I was I was in to this freaking code translation and let me tell you he'll start off strong you're like oh my god a feminist king and he will end on a low note like

Bro, you had me in the literal first half. Gabby, you do realize that because of this, we now have to do an episode on the Code of Hammurabi. Oh my God, please let me write it. I will be so...

Of sex. Okay, you could do it. You very clearly were diving into it a lot. For anyone who was unfamiliar, they could have Hammurabi, which I don't know why you'd be unfamiliar because pretty much it's one of the first things you've ever studied in a social studies class. I was unfamiliar. That's why I read the entire thing. Apparently it was on stone. I feel like that'd be uncomfortable to write on. Well, yeah, but it was permanent in comparison to a lot of paper. I mean, yeah, that's why we have it. But still, the commitment to the bit was hardcore. That's the point. What a guy.

And so this was the whole thing for like an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, that sort of thing. And it got to extreme degrees, which we will definitely go over when we do that episode. But this was a set of Mesopotamian law codes that covered everything from crimes to marriage to divorce to inheritance and everything in between.

When it came to divorce, it had a lot of instructions for the matter. First of all, if a man wanted to divorce a wife that he had children with, he had to give her her dowry and a part of the field, the garden, and the property to live and raise the children in.

Then when the children are adults, he had to give parts of that property to the children that he had to give her part of the property that was equal to what typically would be given to a son. Yeah, basically like he had to give her money or like if he didn't give her like the property here to give her money so she can support herself. Basically, it was the early form of alimony, which like

Go you. And you got to think since everything in here was based on farming, that's kind of the whole point is that it's like, okay, yeah, you have to actually give them a part of the field. Exactly. He couldn't just hoard it. And like he had, if she had like a bride, like a purchase price, because I guess men paid for their wives. Honestly,

Bring that back. Anyway, I guess you guys do pay. A lot of times you guys do pay. Red Bull Bro Podcast moment. Men pay for their wives every day. It's called marriage. Oh my God. I don't know why I'm turning into like a wrestler when doing that. You can tell you've never watched a bro podcast in your life.

I have seen how bad you know those are if you've seen them on TikTok they're typically fake podcast clips just there to generate outrage and income and that's what I'm saying I've seen elements of them and I've also seen stuff for when the whole thing with Andrew Tate was going viral I feel like it'd be so good at a pro podcast I love saying infuriating things to piss off people on the internet see my wife she's not sexist she's not racist

She just she's just an ass to everyone. No, I am. It's a problem. Delete that, James. Jamais, delete it. I'm actually also really sweet, but like I feel like I can turn off my empathy real quick. I told this to you before and you had to tweet it out because it is definitely the most accurate statement for you. Gabby, you're sweet like nitroglycerin.

Which for anyone who does not know what that is, nitroglycerin is the precursor to dynamite. Here's the thing. I spend so much time like crying over things that I find sad, like puppies, homeless people. Do you want to understand my first introduction to homeless people was a man living under a bridge when I lived back? Like I was like five years old. And then it was like a whole fight with my mom as to why we can bring him home because he didn't have one. And we had like an 11,000 square foot house.

And I was like, we won't even see him. He could just come live here. And they were like, Gabby, that's not how this works. And that was my introduction to that. And it's been downhill from there because I have never, I don't care. People are like, oh, I can't give them money because they might buy drugs. I don't care what they buy, bro. I feel bad. I will give them everything I have on me, which is a real problem. Why Steve doesn't allow me to have cash because I give it all away. But also at the same time, if I turn off my empathy, it's game over. So.

sheep. Yep. You know that. Yeah. Yeah. I can't even follow up anything with that here. I don't know how we got here. So, okay. Where were we? Alimony. Right. That's where we were. Wow.

God, how? Are you okay? Did you have white claw just go through your nose? I did. How did I get from alimony to bringing home the homeless man from under the bridge? So after all this, next if a man wanted to leave a wife that he had no children with, she would also get back her dowry.

In addition, if she had a purchase price, he was to return that to her, as Gabby said. And if she didn't have one, he was to give her a Mina of gold. That's about 1.25 pounds of gold or 0.57 kilograms. I said that to be super smart because I had no clue what a Mina was. I was like, Mina? That's a pretty name. All right, hold on. We're going to look this up. Price...

It was about something shekels, 60 shekels. I don't remember. Yeah, but we're going to compare this to modern day numbers just so we can know exactly what you're talking about. It was a livable wage for a time, like an investment account, like a trust fund, a mutual fund, IRA.

Okay. Oh, God. The price of 1.25 pounds of gold is approximately $48,000. That's not enough to live off of. No, but for an initial thing here, that is... That's how much I made my first... Well, I made $8,000 less. I made $40,000 my first year out of college at my first big girl job where I worked 14 hours a day, six days a week. Now, let me tell you, being salaried under those conditions, horrendous. I don't know.

And it was not really enough. Well, I did support...

Like my parents and Joya. So I think that would cut into the profits. This is part of the back lore of us for anyone who's unfamiliar where Gabby was a scientist at a COVID lab and I was head of customer service at that lab. Like I'm not saying $48,000 is not a lot of money. I'm just saying ever since I was 25 years old, I've supported both of my parents because my dad has dementia. My mom is his full-time caretaker. When my dad moved to the US, like a bunch of stuff just didn't pass.

pan out so his money was gone and so i which is so funny because i just went from 11 000 square foot home to isopor with my parents and here's the thing it's because the 11 000 square foot home is still sitting there uninhabited um and it has been for over a decade so if you guys want to buy a house in trinidad buy it it's close to the beach

beautiful property, hardwood trees throughout. You can make your profit back in that. Okay, wait, hold on, Gabby, Gabby, Gabby. Get me out of this. How many followers do we have, respectively, the two of us? A few, like a couple million. Okay. How big of an army...

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Anyway, my lovely story is ever since I was 25 years old, I would financially support. I've been financially supporting my parents and at that point, my one year old daughter. So the pressure was on. Steven made like $30,000 and I made $40,000, which is $70,000. But we had two adults, one kid, and then the two of us. It was a lot of pressure.

It was rough. And also, like, the student loans. It was interesting, for sure. Still interesting, for sure. The logistics of it just don't... Math doesn't math. So buy their house, please. There was a lot. So, yeah. About $48,000 here today for that gold or alimony, I guess, it would get. But then it gets more interesting when it comes to wives not being good wives. Basically, it says if a woman causes debt...

ruins her house or neglects her husband and gets in trouble with the law, if her husband lets her go, she can leave and she isn't owed anything. But if she doesn't release, or if he doesn't release her,

he can keep her as a slave and then take another wife. Here's my thing. Here's my thing. Here's my thing. Is this your feminist icon moment here when you're talking about it? No, like, here's my thing. I loved where they were. I love where his head was at. Then, could you imagine being wrongfully accused by your husband? Because how are they going to fucking prove it? Wrongfully accused. Your wife is like, oh, she's like,

Sending my household into ruin. Because those were the things. Sending your household into ruin. Getting your household into debt. Going to college did that for me. So my bad. And then I attempted a master's. Bad call. You could just be like, oh, she's running us into debt. I'm going to get a new wife. And now she's my slave. God, she just... My wife will not stop buying these luxury hand baskets. And it's just... Luxury hand baskets. It's just driving us further into debt. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Ancient Mesopotamia and their luxury hand baskets. But no, I'm not even joking. They could lie, couldn't they?

I mean, technically speaking, you could. That could happen. He just went on a divorce. He lied. Now she's his slave. Oh, I'd be pissed. Okay, hear me out on this, though. I'd be pissed. I'd poison that man. That's my point. Why? Did they have, like, good poisons back then? Oh, God, yeah. You kidding me? Of course they did. Yeah, I'm sure that happened. I'm calling it now. Can you imagine a... I'm 99% sure that happened. We have, like, John Wick, but it's... I don't know what an ancient Mesopotamian female name would be.

Kathy. Kathy's giving ancient Mesopotamians a mouth. I don't know anything. Wait, wait, wait. Uma. I don't know. Uma is, but also is Japanese for horse. Oh my God. Okay. Well, guys, if you know ancient Mesopotamian female names, comment them because we apparently suck. We suck.

Yep. So when it came to wives, though, in the same situation, if a woman wanted to leave her husband, she had to jump through more hoops. She had to be like, these are the reasons why. And then she had to prove it. They did not mention proving it in any of the husband's stipulations, by the way. I'm sure he had to, but like he could lie. So she had to prove it. And then if she was guilty.

It was a whole thing like she could be you read it because I don't want to spoil it because I was shook. Basically, she had to present the reasons why. And if she isn't the cause and he is a bad husband, then she could take her dowry and leave. But if she is not innocent and leaves her husband, then it says she shall be cast into water. So like that was my thing. That's my thing. I don't want to spoil it because it's so big. So I want you to think about this. Are they drowning? So I want you to think about this.

We're trying to get a divorce. The Tigris and the Euphrates. There are two rivers. I'd be cooked. So there are two rivers. Sometimes you were like, Gabby, you need to do this completely reasonable thing. And I'd be like, divorce. How dare you tell me that I need to do this completely. Get out of bed. Well, yeah. Sometimes, listen, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you're sad. It's a sad day. And you just. And you know what would cure that?

getting out of bed and doing this thing that I've been trying to get you to do because it would actually make you happy. No, that sounds like a lot. I can't do that. But the gag is I can't divorce you unless I get out of bed. So like we always run into this problem. Oh my God. I have crippling depression, guys. Sorry. Okay.

So yeah, cast into water. Basically, you're in a place that is in between two rivers, but there's no real ocean by you. So people were not necessarily familiar with swimming. So yeah, you could just get tossed into the river and there you go. Oh my God. History of swimming. Who was the first bitch to float?

My wife's quote in 2025, who was the first bitch to float? You can't tell me you're not curious. They must have been like, oh my God, it's Jesus 2.0, just less cool because he's flailing about in the water. Well, if you want to think about it, the History Channel already did something on this. Aliens? No, mermaids.

I kid you not, years ago. I know you can't process this. And this side of all this. The History Channel said mermaids. So similar to what people see with ancient aliens, which is so stupid on so many other things. There was a whole documentary that they released that was mermaids. And it was, it looked at the evolutionary theoretical process by which humans evolved

or proto-humans would become mermaids and be like one of our long lost ancestors. And it's an entire documentary about people trying to find and prove that mermaids exist and then theorizing about them and then there's nothing.

I watched this when I was so much younger. I remember thinking, like, it does a really good job of going, wait, is this possible? Wait, is this a thing? And then it just completely leaves you hanging. I can't even go into detail on it. You got to go look it up. It's absolutely infuriating in the first place. Anyway, yeah, this is something that would happen. Cast the water, whatever. Moving on from that, then.

ancient Egypt and another place with flooding. Ooh. Wait, did they cast them into the water too? No. Holy crap, no. This was actually something that surprised me when I was looking into it. I know because when I looked it up, ancient Egypt was really fair. It was super easy to get a divorce for both parties. It was just like,

I liked it. It was a feminist icon. Not even feminist. Just what is egalitarian? It was an egalitarian icon. At least when it came to a lot of the regular marriages that we somewhat have a record of. But it's a bit confusing thing. And I don't want people to think that we're trying to hype something up or that we're trying to disparage other things. No, I'm just talking for ancient times, bro. Women had more rights than I've seen before.

Yeah, ancient Egyptians had a lot more rights than what you would see in ancient Mesopotamia or China, which we're going to be getting into here later. Or sometimes today, depending. Depends on where you are. There are certain places in the world where we could say, yeah.

Yeah. I'm not going to mention the places. You guys can guess. Do some research. We could do an episode on the whole thing. Like every time that you see someone online make a bit or a thing like, oh, yeah, the United States has the worst record on this thing for women's rights. It's like, oh, buddy, buddy, do you want me to bring up the statistics around the world? Well, I don't get political, but I will say when I moved here, what was really hard to wrap my head around was like a bunch of like women telling me what I should support.

when like I come from a country where women are generally treated like trash. And I was looking around like, what are you talking about? I eventually learned like, obviously like how things work and like, you know, obviously they should have better or whatever, but it was just really rough. I think that was the biggest culture shock was like, oh my God, this is so much better. And then they were like, no. And I was like, oh, is it?

damn you can drive just the ruler of saudi arabia is showing up to queen elizabeth ii damn you can drive james is gonna have cuts so much out sorry guys i had a white claw because i was crying all day and it's mother's day i deserve a white claw

With Japanese vodka poured in and it's really bad. Oh, yeah. No, the Japanese can make whiskey. They cannot make vodka, apparently. So what is so surprising that what we were talking about is that for such a bureaucratic state, the marriage in ancient Egypt, for the most part, seems to have been something that was more of a

private affair, something in which the state took very little interest in and kept very little record of for the first several thousand years. There is no real evidence for any legal or religious ceremony establishing marriage like what you would have now with a priest.

As an example of just how simple a thing I'm talking about here, we have a preserved portion of the first late period story of Setne Kamwast, which I'm probably butchering the name of here in the first place, that tells how Ahure and Neneferkata fell in love and wanted to marry, which, honestly, is a good start for a story. It goes, their parents agreed, even better for the story then, so Ahure was taken to Neneferkata's house.

people, especially the father of the bride, gave presents, there was a big party, the two slept together, and then they lived together and had a child. Um...

The two slept together and then they had a child. That's literally it. Like, that's the story. Bam. Done. Boom. Over. That's the marriage. Wow. This is so straightforward. So straightforward. Genuinely, one of the most simple things you could probably ever draft up. And that was it. Basically, marriage was an agreement in which two people and their families. Did you see the ancient Egyptian marriage contracts and then the ancient Egyptian divorce contracts? Because I read all of that bureaucracy. I was like, hell yeah.

Hell yeah. Yes, we're going to get into that. They had like 16 people sign a marriage contract and eight signed a divorce. That's the thing that I'm bringing up here in the first place is that there was still so much legal stuff that went into this, but it was more of a legal economic contract rather than a socio-religious contract. I love researching things together because we both find the same sources and then just like read. I hate the writing part of researching.

Um, which is like half of researching. Yeah. Which is what out goes. So yeah, basically marriage was an agreement where two people and their families would, you know,

Combine, they would live together, establish a household, have a family. That's how you did it. That's what it was. The same terminology was used for both women and men. Although most marriages may have been arranged at the desired husband and the parents of the bride rather than the wife rather having a choice there, there is a repeated idea in stories of a girl going and persuading her father to let her marry the man she wants rather than the guy her father chooses.

So, hey, ancient Egyptian romance novels, I guess, you know, that would have been a thing. But with this whole video or video podcast episode is supposed to be about divorce. I want it to be a video. I think once we have your office set up. Sorry, guys, I'm terrible. But I think once we have your office set up, we're doing we have two cameras. We put two cameras. We get the video. I will edit it.

It might go up two weeks later, but I will edit. We go back, we redo all of like our classic episodes, like potatoes and whatnot. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. We'll just start where we are. Yes. So, okay, Ben. What about when marriage to that boy ends in disaster, though? What happens when she regrets her decision to persuade her father or the man realized that it was actually the sister of his bride that he wanted all along? The what?

Okay. No, any sister who marries my ex-husband is no sister to me, bro.

Gabby, you remember the biblical story. I know. And he married each sister because he wanted that once. Wasn't it Joseph? Yeah. Like Joseph. And the cult of many colors. And his father-in-law basically tricked him or forced him to marry each daughter in order to be able... Yeah. Because the older daughter basically had no prospects in the first place. I'd be pissed. I respectfully...

No, I've been like... You got a charity husband. I'm sorry, Gab. You got a charity husband. I didn't get a charity husband. I can get any husband I want, I fear. No, no, no. I'm talking like if you heard this story. Oh, right, right, right. Thank you for immediately associating it with me. That makes me feel wonderful. You said I got a charity husband. I was like, unless you're in a charity case. No, but I'm not going to call you a charity case. Thanks. I know. I know you're worth, King. You can get a lot of people. Like...

Lots and lots of people. You know, hot people. So many people. There's a Discord group dedicated to hating me. So like you can get a lot of people. Oh, Lord. There's no Discord group dedicated to hating you. Guys, make one. I would like to feel wanted. What a phrase. All right. So let's talk about women then. Yeah.

All the women. I'm sorry to say it that way. She just had a white clock go through her nose again.

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Anyway, here's the thing that, bros, bros, here's the thing you need to understand about women. Pfft.

Stop with the podcast, bro nonsense. I'm going to be like, listen, ladies, that man, he didn't buy you a gift on Mother's Day, even though you have no children. Dump him because there are men out there who are bribing the future wife of their child. And they will call you mommy all the time. I mean, if that's what it takes to get a Chanel bag. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I had to go sis podcast. You went bro podcast. Yeah, that's true. Fair enough.

So although women would sometimes help their husbands with their jobs, and although women had ways of acquiring wealth with their own efforts, like weaving or working in some other capacity, generally speaking, they needed some kind of assurance that the father of their children were going to provide for all their futures. And thus, there developed what have been called annuity contracts. Not marriage contracts, annuity contracts. So these annuity marriage contracts concern themselves only with

economic things, kind of like an employment contract, but for life. They had the annual responsibility of the husband to feed and clothe the wife and their children and the right of their children to inherit his wealth, but that's pretty much it. As such, they were extremely advantageous for the wife for the time, and one can guess that the woman and her family would exert as much pressure as they could to make sure that the future husband would sign that contract upon their

What copulation? I'm just so glad you signed that contract. Also, have you been on like divorce TikTok? Because bro, I've been on divorce. No, Gabby, I can definitely tell you I am not on divorce TikTok. I'm just on messy TikTok. It doesn't matter if it's a divorce, a marriage, a birth of a child and his second child by another woman that exact same day. Like, bro, I'm just on messy talk. But listen, so there was this woman who...

was with a man for like five years, right? But this man was legally married to another woman for multiple years.

his will and everything because he's legally married obviously every asset he has goes to his wife and she's the mother of his children so it goes to the wife and children the person he was with is like how dare he and he's trying to sue she has no leg to stand on no she has no legal rights there is nothing legal in this it's like the the ex-wife so that woman was with him for five years but the ex-wife who is still his wife

could have pulled a plug on him if he went to the hospital. Also, that woman would have not been able to really visit him because they're like, you're not legally allowed to be in his room. His wife, the ex-person, she could have done all of that. And that's why I'm saying that's why I got married, because I want to be the one to pull the plug on this bitch. Sorry, Steve.

And here I was about to stress to everyone the importance of marriage. Yes, it is so important. This is where we have the meme insert if this was a video of I'm in danger. I'm just saying. I'm not going to pull the plug. Unfortunately, I'm the wife who would leave you alive for way too long.

You make every single sentence that you say in here an ominous threat. I'm sorry. It's just who I am. I was raised to scare men. My mother always told me, Gabby, have your own money. Get a big house. And if a man pisses you off, throw him out the second story window. That is how I was raised. This is I'm not even acting. This isn't even like.

a thing. It's not a shtick. I genuinely just scare men. I was raised to scare men. Ever since I was in college and high school, I was deeply unsettling to the men. I'm sorry, but all this does is bring to mind the whole thing when I did the geopolitical video on gang violence and problems in Trinidad and the Caribbean. It makes me think, ah, yes, eighth most dangerous country in the world. And I'm like... And I'm one of them. And Gabby is...

And Gabby is batting for top spot. I'm just saying, you chose to marry me. You saw me. You heard me speak and you were like, you know what? This is safe. This is good for me. Gabby, I promise you, I never once looked at you and thought I am safe. That's so sweet. Oh my God.

So here we was. I knew anybody contracts. Right. I knew. Yeah, because I said they should pay as they should. So, yes, this was an advantageous wife. Family would try to exert pressure. But Egyptian women were full participants in the legal system, not chattel and not dependent on a man to handle their legal concerns for them. Yes. So basically, this means that if a woman had to appear in court, it's not like what you would see with sexes.

say, later Islamic systems where it's like you actually have, what is it? Is it a woman's voice only counts for half in a legal argument? These Egyptian women were able to come to court and actually make these contracts with their husband. They didn't have to have a representative. It was just them. They were like, listen, bro, Chanel bag. Okay.

Louis Vuitton. Louis Vuitton is kind of bad. Chanel. Luxury. Burberry. Luxury hand baskets. It's ha. It is thoth. It is hoppy. Are you saying random Egyptian? Gods. Yeah, those were Egyptian gods. Okay, okay. And don't forget the sunglasses to match because it was very right. Yes. In ancient Egypt. Of course. Thank you. Of course.

Of course. Yeah. So essentially the documents and everything in here or the legal contract would have been between them too. It wasn't between the husband and the father of the bride. It was just her. She got to stand up and be like,

These are my terms. And I love that for them. It is very different from just about every other ancient marriage document, which oftentimes, you know, would control the wife's status. That was something you would see in just about every other society on earth. So I find that incredibly fascinating. As an example, though, this comes from a time in which the Greeks ruled Egypt. The following is a paragraph from the Digital Archives, the Chicago Library Digital Collections.

He says,

If he doesn't give her all the money, then he must continue to feed and clothe her the amounts of grain, oil, and money for clothing, which must be provided every month or spelled out, until he does give her the full amount in silver.

If he defaults on his payments, she remains legally entitled to any and all arrears. By implication, if they divorce, then once he has paid her the full amount of silver included in the contract, she returns the contract to him and all obligations are canceled. That is one of the most bureaucratic sounding things I've ever read in my life for a marriage. I know. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I want one of those bad boys.

Not really, because I feel like in modern day, they all come with earning stipulations. And I love a challenge. I would out earn you for the principle of the matter. Things that are also way more complicated. Because I used to out earn you in the time before and I will out earn you in the time after. Uh-huh. It's just my life goal. It's just your life goal at that point. I love one of my husbands, a kept man. God, you know, and that's where I get alimony.

I'll give you alimony, baby. What do you want, baby cakes?

I don't know, but the way you're phrasing it here now is making me concerned to ask for anything. I'll give you whatever. Name your terms. Oh, God. Cutie pie. Now, why then would one divorce in Egypt? Well, there are many reasons, but in Egypt... There was no cheating? Why is that a question? I'm sure someone was like, listen, I was at the... Did they have taverns? Oh, trust me, Gabby. We're going to get into this whole thing for like why someone would do something. China had a stipulation for she talks too much.

Oh no, I'm in danger. That is not a legal ground. Like, that is not something with legal grounds in ancient Egypt. Dearest, do I talk too much? Be honest, give me strength. No, see, you have two extremes. You're either chatterbox or dead silence. There's no in between. I know, I'm really good at silent judgment. I can do it for weeks. You can. You can. She has. Oh.

So here's the thing. Religion was very important for ancient Egyptians, just as it was for many different societies, of course. But marriage was supposed to be an everlasting thing for a good pair. If you were faithful to your spouse and you were a good spouse overall, you would find them waiting for you in the afterlife and there you were together. If you weren't good for them, you might not see them or hell, you might not even get to that afterlife at all.

But Egyptian society was very complex and sophisticated. If things didn't really work out in life, there were options for just getting a divorce. If either the husband or wife was dissatisfied with their marriage, either one could go and initiate a divorce. And the settlement would be just as simple as the marriage, it seems. Some paperwork was signed, assets were divided upon agreements during the marriage, and that's it.

But of course, it could get more complex as one important of marriage was fidelity and loyalty. If a spouse was found to have cheated and been unfaithful to their partner, this was seen as grounds for divorce. Yes, but more importantly, it came with legal consequences. So these were examples of fault divorces, right? Yes, exactly. So they had both no fault divorce and fault divorce. It was something that was mixed. So

A divorce could easily be a no-fault divorce if there was no fault. But if there was something that was actually fault, such as in the case of infidelity, it did come with additional consequences. A spouse divorced for fault, including adultery, would forfeit his or her share of the couple's joint property. Okay, that's fair. I think that's fair. But like, depending on how they proved it, you know, like, I don't want anyone being framed, but I'm sure enough.

There are obviously cases where something could be a false accusation. I know, exactly. Yes. Because in the modern day, the courts are so weighted against like dads or, you know, like certain moms. I don't know. It's just so messy. Oh, and TikTok has exposed a lot of this stuff in here now. It gets nasty. Have you seen Dad for Kids content? Lauren, anybody who hasn't seen it, go watch this. I mean, I'm following this one case right now where the dad was wrongfully accused

accused of paternity he's not even the dad bro but he was the dad who stepped up but then he exposed it when he found out and now it's like he's in he might go to jail i'm like what when he was the one who's wrong it's 2025 well how are we doing this i don't know it's fine yeah so either one would forfeit their share of the property after divorce though both were free to remarry

But until the husband returned his wife's dowry and paid her a fine, if he is the one who initiated it, or until she had actually accepted that money, the husband was still liable for supporting her, even if they were no longer living together. So, like, let's say that a guy just goes and kicks out his wife because he no longer wants to be with her or whatever. He has to support her. He still has to support her. Good. Until it is that the full amount is paid. Damn. Yeah.

They were hardcore. Yeah, which I mean, you had legal protection. That was the thing. We should bring properly thought out legal protections back. And this is important to specify when we talk about this here. When we talk about someone being unfaithful, the ancient Egyptian concept of adultery consisted of a married person having sex with someone who is not their spouse. That goes for whether you are a man or a woman, which is very important because in some societies, you could not commit adultery without

Unless you were a woman, like only women were legally bound by that definition in some places. That was not the case for Egypt. So it was like if women like cheated, if men cheated, it did not matter. It was the same. The terms for the marriage were the same. Oh, that's so good. I love when people keep the exact same definition for everyone, no matter what their genitalia is. Which is again, fascinating. Now, of course, there were differences for status.

The highest, most elite members of society. Of course, the pharaohs had polygamy. So like, yes.

Which, from what we understand, the pharaohs had polygamy and maybe... Didn't Cleopatra, wasn't she legally married to her brother, but then she was sleeping with Julius Caesar when he pulled up? Yeah, but that was actually a holy grail problem. That was actually something where the whole thing for women... And she got herself wrapped in a rug? Question mark? Yeah, according to the story, but that only applies to male pharaohs. Women, typically, were not pharaohs. They could not have multiple husbands. But they were co-rulers. Yeah.

in some cases. So she just... So legally, she cheated on her brother, the pharaoh. Yes.

Well, he wasn't as cool because I don't even know his name. So legally, she cheated on her brother. In fact, legally, she cheated on her brother. This is a sentence that should be cursed. Yeah, I know. She was married to her brother. In fact, she wasn't married to just her brother. She was married to two of her brothers. One after the other. I cannot imagine that fate because I have three brothers and they're okay people. God bless their wives. Dear God.

Yep. So the Egyptian system was very family centered and the terminology for marriage and divorce was the same for both sexes. Adultery was defined in family terms, so both would be condemned regardless of what their gender was. Like seriously, this has got to be one of the most simple and straightforward marriage and divorce practices for people of the modern day and age to ever understand. It's insane.

Anyway, we have been going on about this for quite a while here now. All right. Time to move on to a different area of the world and our final one, China. Final ancient one. We will be back next week with medieval-ish times. Yeah. Yeah. We're jumping around a lot. This is multi thousands of year periods. Guys, people have been fucking up relationships since the dawn of time. It is a wonder.

Adam and Eve didn't get a divorce, but bless them. It was only both of them. No, they just got evicted. The eviction would have sent me spiraling. I'm not going to lie. So the thing is, as I said when talking about Egypt, you can't really talk about marriage without talking about women. And here's the thing. This was very different than what you would see in ancient Egypt.

So here's the thing. Women in ancient China did not enjoy the same status. Are these the same women whose toes got fucked up? Sort of. Foot binding became a thing that was way later. Foot binding, if I recall correctly. If it's way later, I don't want to know about way earlier. Yeah.

So women did not have the same status. They didn't have the same social or political status that was afforded to men. And this was the case for thousands of years going up all the way to the social revolution under Mao Zedong and the communists, which, listen, I am not going to get political. Do not go all fat electrician. I'm not, but I will rip on communism a lot in history. Especially when it comes to a lot of the people where you have like

communist historians looking back and i don't mean like history with pride it is you you see a lot of the ones like the the tiktok hyper socialist historians that try to interpret history and it is so incredibly biased awful information you want to give the benefit of the doubt people are some people believe humans are inherently bad i choose to believe humans are inherently neutral

And then they can be back. Yeah. But in general, when it comes to a lot of the communist philosophies, they're just

Horrible, horribly thought out. The thing is, when it comes to... I mean, capitalism is not well thought out either. We're just locked in. Yeah, the problem is capitalism doesn't try to associate itself with genuine political thought at the same time. Communism is an economic system that simultaneously ends up being hyper-politicized. And it gets really nasty and really dumb when it comes to history.

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Why do rivers curve? Why did the T-Rex have such tiny arms? And why do so many more kids need glasses now than they used to?

Spoiler alert, it isn't screen time. Our team of scientists digs into the research and breaks it down into a short, entertaining explanation, jam-packed with science facts and terrible puns. Subscribe to MinuteEarth wherever you like to listen. The big thing about this, though, is that there is one thing that they most certainly did get right when it came to Chinese history, and that is advancing social developments. There was a lot of benefits for women when the communists ended up taking over

See, historically, women were subordinate to first their fathers, after their fathers, with their husbands. And then finally, if you were a widow, if you had no father because he had died, if your husband had died, you were subordinate to your son. God, I was born in you, right?

The exact right time period. Because I've never been subordinate to anyone. I've just been a bitch. God damn. This is something called... Like, you know, the daughter who I yelled at, the daughter who yelled back. Guess which one I was. This is something called irony. Oh, nar. So the system here was called the three followings or sun cult.

Oftentimes, women could be physically ill-treated, they could be segregated and separated from society, and they were forced to compete for their husband's affections with concubines. What? I would never! Oh my god! Everybody's dead. Everybody's dead. The concubines, the husband...

God, I really was born in the right time period. Holy shit. Competing with a concubine? Yeah, because oftentimes here's the thing you have to understand. That's like competing with an Instagram model. Gabby, Gabby, it's worse. You're not going to win. Yeah, it's because it's worse in this context. Usually the legal wife was the one that was arranged for the sake of marriage, right? That was the one that you needed in order to buy the families for wealth, everything else. It didn't mean that they actually liked you at all. Concubines, though, were more oftentimes than chosen for their wives.

looks or other things yeah i know that's like actually common sense i fear nor i would want to be the concubine in this i don't want to be anybody's second thought i don't want to be their political leg up there i would be their political leg down i would personally make it my mission to think

Any status they had. And the thing is, you know, I went to that. Then that's one of the legal problems we will talk about that could develop. But also, technically speaking, if you have a lot of anger, hear that anger in your voice. I also have a lot of anger. You would be legally justified to beat the shit out of the concubines if you wanted to.

Oh, oh, actually, yeah. Oh, wow. The sudden change. No, I like I like that. Oh, wow. Wow. OK. Do not judge me. Do not judge me. I'm just really lucky I wasn't born in that time period because I would have been a personal problem. Somebody would have assassinated me.

So, my friends, in China, everyone pretty much knew it's better to be a man. It's better to be a man. Remember what I told you, Gabby? Listen, listen, listen. We're covering this. I'm going to sound like I'm doing a bro podcast. I told you this was the case when we got to China. Damn it. I'm so...

Like, here's the thing. You know how there's that thing... What is the thing that you would describe oftentimes that would be experienced by women? Penis envy, right? That was a personal problem, but okay, air it off for the internet. But that is a thing that a lot of women actually end up having, right? Because it would be so cool to have. You could helicopter, you could windmill, you can do a lot of other things that I can't say on a PG podcast. This is not a PG podcast. You could...

go to the restroom standing up and like not sit on that seat because everybody hovers. But hovering is the problem because when you hover, very few women are very accurate with the hover. So it goes everywhere. But then very few people clean it up. If you've ever been to an airport, you would know it's disgusting. Don't hover. Just use a seat cover. Like if you got to hover, use a seat cover. That is your rhyme. Memorize it. Use it.

because you're part of the problem. Now the seat got pee on it. You didn't clean it up. Now the rest of us got to hover. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It keeps on going. I'm pretty accurate in my hover, but that's because I've honed this skill because I grew up in a place without very many public restrooms. Okay? The things you learn on this podcast about like our skills and abilities. Okay.

James is going to delete all. I told him delete everything that I said tonight. But the point of the story, the moral really is I forgot where I was going.

So when I was bringing a penis envy here in the first place... Right, right, right, right. I could pee standing up if I were a man. That's where I was going. So you have multiple examples of Chinese female characters in literature that would state like, oh, that they had been a man in a previous life, but had reappeared as a woman as a punishment because they just...

Were that shitty of people in the back? I've been told that. People said, Gabby, you give vibes of a man who got reincarnated as a woman as punishment. I've gotten that comment on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube. Because that is actually a belief with Hindu reincarnation. I know. I know I get it. Thank you, guys. Everybody who's ever left me that comment, I love you. I genuinely feel like I was meant to be

the dominant person in this relationship can i say this on a side note of like just how hilariously insulting that is the the idea that within reincarnation in hinduism that it's like you can up so bad you don't become a lower status you just become a woman and that's like a worse fate than getting a lower social status yes actually that's actually really fucked up um

That's like a self-reflection to your culture type of vibe. Let's just think on that collectively. There's also commonly introductions in female characters with stories where they say, ah, yes, unfortunately, she was born a woman.

What? Yeah, yeah. I would be so womanly just to spite them. Now, why? This is the whole thing. We're talking about divorce. Why are we going into the gender dynamics of this? It's important. Because if the gender dynamics is terrible, then the divorce options would be abysmal. Exactly. So the reason why they would oftentimes have these differences here is that a male child would grow up and contribute financially to the family. They would support them. They would participate in ancestor worship. They would stay with the

the family. They would continue on the family name. In comparison to that, a woman had a way harder time earning money and at one point was going to leave the family and join her husband's family so she was not going to be a part of her family anymore. As a result, women were not treated as well typically and baby girls, if they had enough of them, could be abandoned shortly after birth. This is one of those things where even going into China today, the rate of

Infanticide is way higher among females. Those girls who did survive would be given names like Pearl or Chastity or names of flowers and stuff. And one of the reasons why this happened is because it was hoped that, oh, if you have a pretty name, you're going to grow up and be pretty and then hopefully have an easy time getting married.

Yeah. Wow. Wow. On that note, Gabby, this is the whole point. This is why I really wanted to bring this up. They called me Gabby. So I was, they were like, you're hopelessly going to hate me. With the rules that we're going to be talking about here. You're going to talk your husband to death. That's why my parents were so ecstatic to get me married off. They looked at me because I hated dating people. I did. I pity dated a lot of men and I wouldn't break up with them. And the last guy I dated before you was,

Other than the guy I was dating when I started dating you, which is a whole other story in and of itself. But the guy that I was dating before I dated you was an orphan. I dated this man and I was like, mom, I can't break up with him. But he is so clingy. He keeps texting me. And she was like, girl, you just got to break up with him. But do not do it over text. Call him. Don't have to call this dude who's an orphan, by the way, and tell him, sorry, dude, I don't I don't want to be dating you anymore. That was two days in.

It's two days in to our relationship. Okay. He drove all the way here from like somewhere else really far to date me. Then on top of that, I don't know. I just was terrible at dating men. I think. And then I came along. Well, I didn't think you had any promise, but you were really cool with me ignoring you for days on end. I was playing video games. Yeah. It worked out really well because he didn't give a crap and I didn't give a crap. He gave me space because I have commitment issues. And also I just do not like

being told what to do and he never told me what to do he actually never said much so i worked out in your literally again this is goes back to one of the initial things when we were starting to date and uh i asked her so what are you doing tonight which when you ask someone that on tinder it sounds like oh are you gonna are you i'm like can we sleep together

I genuinely just asked her, what are you doing tonight? So she made up a lie that she was out babysitting. I mean, she does. She does not go and babysit children. She does not enjoy spending time with people that cannot communicate their needs. So she makes up this lie that that is something that she is going to do. And I respond. Oh, cool. I'm playing this game.

And then I proceeded to talk about the game for a few moments and then went back to playing the game. But then months later, I actually found your phone and your ex-girlfriend that exact same night was texting you to hang out. So really. And what did I do? Well, you didn't hang out with her. She was texting you to hang out. You should have blocked her number. Yeah, I get the gap. Doesn't matter. He actually didn't realize she was hitting on him. Um.

It is what it is. They're learning so much lore. James, cut this out. Anyway. They don't need it. Do you want to hear a pro podcast version of a Chinese poem from the third century A.D.? At this point, not really. All right. So I'll tell you anyway. It's by this guy called Fu Swan. So it goes, bitter it is to have a woman's shape.

It would be hard to name a thing more base. If it's a son born to the hearth and home, he comes to earth as if he's heaven sent heroic heart and will like the four seas to face 10,000 leagues of wind and dust to breed a girl is something no one wants. She is not a treasure to her family.

Jesus Christ. He doesn't want to get her pregnant. No, no. To breed a girl as in to make one.

So they don't want a child. They don't want a female child. They want a male child. Is that why the one child policy was really out of hand? Well, yeah, it's one of the reasons why. It is one of the reasons why, which we will go in the future. See, we only have a daughter, which makes a lot of sense because guys, when we had Joya, I felt so much shame because we had like seven miscarriages.

until we had Joya. So I was like, this is probably our only kid. And then I felt like really, really, really, really guilty because then it was a girl and everybody was like, oh, it's a girl. And they just couldn't handle it. And Joya was perfect and amazing. And I love her dearly and Steve loves her dearly. But everyone was like, oh. So marriages in China were usually arranged by both sets of parents. Now, not love, but economic and social considerations were the main priority with everyone. So it's like

back home when they do arranged marriages and it was just for money. Yeah, basically. That's the big gist of it. I wish I could have gotten married for money. I did turn that down. Ship a sail. Wait, that was an inside thought. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Oops. Okay. There were even professional matchmakers to find suitable pairings who also considered astrology in their selections. That's on Netflix. Watch it. So,

The big thing is, yeah, when we bring up this whole point about astrology, that's an important detail because astrology was also considered with divorces too. Which, could you get a divorce if you were not like,

compatible? If you were compatible, would they let you in? Oh, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. I have so many questions. Oh my God, this is exciting. Space racism. Yes, it literally is. So at times, parents would not even wait until their children were of age. Many marriages were arranged when couples were still young or even just babies. The typical marrying age itself was usually going to be in the early 20s for men and the late teens for women. Although child brides were not

uncommon despite the fact that the practice was generally forbidden by law. Did they have like kindergarten dating drama? Because guys, we sent our daughter to private Christian school. We were like, this is going to be safe. Nope.

They turn six and there's kindergarten dating drama. And you're like, what? What? Another tidbit on this that was weirdly possible. If a marriage had been arranged, but the groom died and it was close to the ceremony, like if it's like one or two or three days before they got married. Does this still count? Well, the wedding might go ahead anyway. And the bride would join her new family as a widow.

So I guess a really advanced form of adoption, I guess. Or in this case, maybe they're just obtaining a new servant. A servant? Yeah, we're going to get into that. But I kind of like that. That's messed up. Why would he die three days before the wedding? I don't know. Maybe he died of war or sickness or some shit. He was not marriage material. Because what do you mean you can't hold out for your woman? Second of all, rude. Third of all, rude.

If you were strong enough to be married to that queen, you would have lived. Oh, God. I'm sorry. So moving on then here. You did a bro podcast, Paul and Mike and the assist podcast, whatever the fuck that was. Let's say they both survived. Guys, I just want you to know none of these views are my own. I'm just shit posting IRL.

Let's say they both survive, get married, but are unhappy or something. What about divorce then? We finally get to that. Well, in Chinese law, a man could divorce his wife, but she had no such right to actually do that, except if the husband particularly mistreated his wife's family. Not her, her family.

Like if he was just shit talking and belittling her father and all this, like he could beat the shit out of her. I got that. But if he attacked her brother, Oh, Oh, that's where the marriage could be over. I have in fact paid to watch a shorts reel.

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So the accepted grounds for divorce were failure to bear a son, evidence of being unfaithful. Failure to bear a son? Yep. Oh, I'm fucked. Lack of filial piety to the husband's parents. What does that mean? You didn't listen to them. Oh, I'm fucked. Let's say your husband's father said, hey, um...

That is not how we have your hair done in this household. That is improper. And she goes, screw you. I'm going to wear my hair how I want. Yeah, they're going to beat the shit out of you and you could get kicked out along with a lot of this is insane. Yeah. If you stole from them, you had some kind of infectious disease. You could get kicked out, which I mean, I think of an STD or something like that. That could happen. But he would give it to her. But yeah, that could potentially happen.

Yeah. Yeah. There could be issues of jealousy, talking too much. Talking too much? Which, listen, some of these seem very weird if you're looking at it from a modern lens, but it also should be remembered that with Chinese society, divorce was very serious. Luan was in danger, wasn't she? Oh, yeah. But this is...

But this wasn't willy-nilly. Like, there were very serious things that had to happen. There were serious repercussions for both parties in the event that this took place. She was better off as... What was her name? Ping? Yeah.

Ping. Also, I need to stress this. I said talking too much. That's not entirely accurate. That's just how it's written. Talking too much means gossiping. So if she is spreading rumors about her family, even if they're true, if she is spreading the family's dirt elsewhere. I love spreading family dirt. So the basic idea was that if you spread too much gossip, it'll create discord within the family. And that is not something you could do within China.

Furthermore, a wife could not be divorced, though, if she had no family to return to or if she had gone through a three year mourning period for her husband's dead parents. So, like, let's say she's married to her husband. That makes sense. So, like, let's say she's married to her husband. They're together for five years. His parents died. His parents died two years into the relationship. She mourns him for three. Then they're like, you're too committed.

Yeah, no, that's literally it. You're already an integrated part of the family. You're just going to have to look at the concubines in the eye while they sleep with your husband and just be okay with that. Yeah.

Wait, everybody had concubines? No. Oh, praise the Lord. Because I would just like to be Laura Fass in that scenario. You could skirt under the radar, you know, because upper class, you know, you're married to this man. You're like, I'm a princess. I'm living my best life. My life has changed. He's so beautiful. He's handsome. He's powerful. Maybe he's ugly, but like he's powerful. So you're like, he's handsome. Because, you know, like we attribute men's power sometimes to their attractiveness. And

And then he has concubines and you're like, fuck that guy. Fuck that guy for real. And then you're stuck married to him. I don't know if I could do it. Somebody's going to die. Me, them, toss up really. The big thing is here, despite everything it is that I'm describing,

divorce was not as common as it sounds. Like it sounds... Because they couldn't do it. No, no. I mean, even for males initiated because there could be... Yeah, because they would keep her so she can watch them sleep with somebody else. Be so for real. Yeah. It's not like there were a ton of great options. They're not going to be like, I failed at satisfying my wife and making her happy. She's going to stay with me forever. She didn't embarrass this family, actually. She's the best wife I've ever had. But here's two of my concubines.

And they're better than her. Be so for real. You wouldn't have to initiate in that position. They would not have to initiate a divorce. They just had it made.

Well, ironically, they got the wife and the hose. We're going to get into that. Unfollow her on Instagram. She was in the house. Yeah. Which actually a lot of people message me about their husbands following me on Instagram. And I don't know what to say. Except everything is really history based. I stopped posting that there are straps. Those go to my other pages. And genuinely just tell your husband to unfollow me because there's too many DMs. Thank you so much. Love you. Bye.

So on that note here, another social convention was that widows were not supposed to remarry. So if you if your husband died, you weren't supposed to be able to get another one. Now, many did anyway, especially among the lower classes. But the basic idea was, remember, the whole thing with astrology is like, ah, yes, we consulted the stars. We did all of this. We found you the perfect person, the husband that you were destined to be together. So if your husband died.

You can't go against the stars and fate. At least they didn't have to do Sati. Yeah, you know, at least it wasn't really... Because... Wait, did they burn them at the... They wouldn't do that because they didn't do pyres. The big thing...

The wives of the emperor and the concubines were oftentimes, like, strangled. Oh! Well, the emperors. But that stopped after, like, I think it was a B.C. era, because I did a whole podcast on my show on human sacrifice. And I think...

They stopped that pretty decently early on because it wasn't great. No, not in. So what you're talking about. Well, back in the day, they used to kill every single person in that entire government. So like his advisors, his wives, his concubines, probably his goats. I don't know.

um and then they stopped doing that so i don't know if they kept killing the concubines and the wives yeah they did but this is a different different thing it wasn't nearly the same degree and it wasn't that they were brought out and then just like their heads their throats lit uh they were hung typically with silk and strangled yeah because you couldn't damage the body like if you slipped your throat because it would have a cut in the afterlife which like i get the logic but be so for real um not great not great at all

And on top of all that, an even greater barrier was the financial one. As a widow did not inherit the property of her dead husband. So she didn't have anything to offer a new husband in that department. Because if they had children together, like let's say they had a couple of sons or whatever, right? The property was divided amongst those children. It did not go. None of it went to her. They knew that and they still, well, didn't have birth control. Nevermind. That's not them. But it brings up a question then.

Good. You just ask. Why even do that? Why even marry them? I would have to just do a Wuzi Shan and kill my sons. Oh, dear Lord. Well, you kind of... Am I wrong? And guess what? She still had to produce... Self-preservation. Guess what? She still had to produce the sons in order to have puppets that she could control and throw in the first place. You produce the sons and you kill off the ones you can't control. That's literally just basic survival instinct. All right.

Well, here's the thing. For everyone else, that is not going to go on a murderous rampage. It's not a murderous rampage. It's self-preservation. It's you or me. Fair enough. Son. This was kind of what you were expected to do. You had to. Marriage and children were the normal things that any adult would do. So it's the exact same as today where everyone expects you to have like 15 children. And you're like, the economy is bad, bro. One is enough. Not 15, but 15.

For any family, you were supposed to reproduce, increase the number of potential ancestors for future generations. Full idea. As such, though, only men who could not afford a wife did not marry. That's the thing. If you couldn't afford a wife, you weren't really going to get married. But if you could afford a wife, you were going to get married. What did they do if they couldn't afford a wife? Concubine? No. Women of the night? Well, yeah, if you could afford even that, or you just worked until you died.

Oh, no. Gabby, here's the thing you need to understand. That's so sad. In ancient times, if you had a hundred men, like just a general thing. I'd just be their besties. I'd be like their buddy. Oh, that's so sad. Yeah.

That's how it would go. Women, though, you had to get rid of them as soon as possible. What the fuck do you mean? You're right. This isn't a child-friendly episode. I've sworn like 15 times. That sounds so wrong. Okay, okay. Get this. During the Han Dynasty, as an example, unmarried women brought a special tax on their family. You had to pay more in tax if you had a bunch of daughters married

that weren't married you couldn't just have spinsters you had to pay more intact if you had spinsters so you got rewarded for having hot children kind of yeah and rich children at the same time that is the case what if you were like poor and all of your kids were just ugly oh good luck to that yeah you just become poorer uh you end up you'd have to kill your kids so here's the thing

Women with babies were given a three-year exemption from tax and their husband a one-year exemption. Oh, shit. Can we do that? No, no, no. Bring that back. I'll have more children. Nope, we can't because it's different. I knew that it would be brought up. And so when I saw this stat, I'm like, that sounds so weird. How the hell would no one be paying tax during that time? Literally, the economy or state would not function. Because they had children to support. And children are expensive. $25,000 in taxes is...

is worth it for a beautiful young baby. Because that's not what they got. They didn't get a monetary tax reprieve. That's not how that worked. What they got was a tax reprieve from being a state slave. What the fuck does that mean? It means there was a thing basically called a Corvi system where you owed the state labor.

essentially there's like jury duty where they pay you 12.50 an hour and you're supposed to be like yay I will be impartial no bro I'm getting paid 12.50 an hour I'm gonna say they're guilty so I can go home yes I put that on the record you guys James leave that in because I mean it deadass I have too much anxiety to make decisions and also I just want to get out of there because I have too much anxiety to make decisions

But in this case, we're not talking about like, you're not getting paid. This is taxed labor. You owe the state labor. So you just like run a company? No. You like clean the streets?

Kind of. Yeah, I do that. Think of like you're a farmer and you've done your stuff for the year. And then every so often you owe the state like two months of labor where they're like, all right, instead of spending time with your family, you're going to go to the province over here and you're going to build a road or a wall.

That actually sounds so fun because A, you get a break from your family and B, you got to do something productive and then you can be like, you know that road? I built that road to your grandkid. I like that. This is the same thing that was utilized to help build the Great Wall and a lot of people died to make that happen. Babe, why do you ruin everything? How did a lot of people die? Why do you ruin everything? How did a lot of people die? Just like regular people? Yeah, for labor. Labor conditions were harsh.

It's a wall. Yeah. How big is the wall? The Great Wall of China? I'm assuming it's a big wall, but I don't know how big it is. I've never been because you can't go to China because you keep shit-talking China. So China is going to be mad at you if you go to China. And I honestly would be like, hell yeah, brother. Lock him up. I don't shit-talk China. I just...

question a lot of their geopolitical and historical decisions. Yeah, and if the U.S. ever goes the way of China, good luck. Good luck, Chuck. So, yeah.

If you would have children to basically you got a tax reprieve, you didn't have to be a state slave. Now, regarding the sex of children, sons, as I already discussed, were way more desired than daughters. There is, in fact, an old proverb that went, a boy is born facing in.

A girl is born facing out. What does that mean? It means that eventually a girl has to leave. Facing into what? A girl has to leave the family. They face out because a girl will eventually go and join another family. Boys are always with the family and they support the family. So boys stay with their parents. So if you didn't have boys, you would just S.O.L.? Oh, yeah, pretty much. You lost everything. I would lose everything because I can't have another kid? Yeah.

Okay, well, you were supposed to say no, dear. I love you so much. You're so good at what you do. I'm going to cry. In ancient China. You're not in ancient China. I know.

other kid i just can't have kids easily okay you're not in ancient china well now i'm crying second white claw man i never do that dear god i'm sorry anyway as i said all this was definitely in the male's favor on mother's day how rude you should have said no no that's not how it works

Now, this thing is about this. There was a bit of a legal conundrum in the Disha system that could get a man in some serious trouble, though.

when it came to marriage and divorce and whatnot. See, in pre-modern eras, like upper-class men in China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam, they would, in many cases, have more than one spouse in order to make sure that they had sons who were able to inherit. So you had one main wife, and then you had a bunch of concubines or lesser wives, but only if you were wealthy enough.

Under this system, the main wife was called the zhengshi, or d-wife, and a man was only allowed to have one d-wife. This is the official, this is the legal, this is the main wife. But he could get another one if he divorced the first one. In the Tang Dynasty, any man who had more than one d-wife would be considered to be bigamous and was liable for one year of penal labor. So you got sentenced to hard labor.

The women who were involved would also get a sentence unless it is that they could prove that they were basically tricked into the marriage. In which case, that wedding or marriage was annulled. The secondary spouse was called a seishi, which literally means side household.

Literally, it's your side, bitch. I'm not even kidding. Or the shoe wife. Now, several shoe wives were allowed for one man at the same time, according to law. And based on social standards, the D wife's major responsibilities were managing all the shoe wives. This is the thing where I'm talking about where the main wife is the head of everything. And then she is supposed to take care of them like her younger sisters. But if they didn't respect her, she had the right to punish them.

So she could beat the shit out of them if she wanted. Now for divorce, as I mentioned, during most of the history of China, a man could divorce or could not divorce or demote his main wife, the Zheng Shi wife, unless she had committed one of seven misconducts for divorce. Things that we listed off here before that included talking too much.

However, there were three conditions known as three exceptions that forbade the man from leaving his wife, even if she did commit one of those sins, which we already discussed. Having no family to return to, having already served three years for the mourning for her deceased parents-in-law, or the husband was poor upon marriage, but now he was wealthy, so he couldn't divorce her.

Now, Tang law prescribed that a man caught demoting his Zengshi wife to secondary wife without good cause was going to be sentenced to two years of penal labor and the Zengshi's wife status would be restored.

any man who restored or who divorced his wife without legitimate reasons, being the above mentioned seven misconducts, that one would be subjected to 18 months of penal labor and a further 100 strokes of the cane if he violated the wife's protection under the three exceptions. Basically, if you tried to divorce your wife for a, you didn't have a good reason, you just

thought she was ugly and you didn't want to deal with her anymore or some shit, and you didn't have a proper concrete reason, you would be sentenced to hard labor and could be beaten with a cane. So yeah, there were degrees of protection.

But hey, that is all that we're going to cover here today. We could talk about many more groups in history. So if you listeners have any specific requests, let us know. That really is the end of things now. I appreciate all of you for listening. Thank you all very much. And I'll see you all here next time. Goodbye, everyone.

Have you ever wondered how inbred the Habsburgs really were? What women in the past used for birth control? Or what Queen Victoria's nine children got up to? On the History Tea Time podcast, I profile remarkable queens and LGBTQ plus royals, explore royal family trees, and delve into women's medical history and other fascinating topics. Join me every Tuesday for History Tea Time.

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