City faces early Champions League elimination danger | Saudi Arabia awarded 2034 World Cup
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Welcome to Back Pages, bringing you everything you need to know about the biggest sports stories making the headlines in the morning's newspapers. I'm Teddy Draper and joining me is Charlotte Dunker, football reporter for The Times and the Athletics football correspondent David Ornstein. Welcome to you both.

Looking at the back page of The Sun, Pep is having a Western Supermare. McKennie rubbed it in as City faced KO from Champs League. David, how bad is it for Manchester City and how bad do you fear it could get from what we're witnessing? It's unprecedented in this modern era under Pep Guardiola and this ownership. I mean, when you're seeing headlines like that with all due respect to Western Supermare, it's not good at all. And I think that's one win in ten overall.

They have had blips in the past Manchester City, rocky spells, but never to this extent. And it gets to the point where it must be taking a massive dent on their confidence.

Pep Guardiola talking very positively after most of these setbacks and again tonight about how they played well, but they're just sort of looking for that break, that spark, and it's not quite coming at the moment. If you look at their lineup tonight, not far off being at full strength in terms of the names on that lineup with De Bruyne and Haaland and, you know, okay, they're missing Stones and of course Rodri, but, you know,

It's Juventus' side that have drawn like seven of their last nine matches. They've been on a poor run themselves. It's never easy going to Turin, but they were well beaten tonight. And now they turn around and have to prepare themselves for the Manchester derby next up, which is not going to be easy. But in respect of this Champions League campaign, it's not looking great at all. They've now played PSG and Club Bruges tonight.

They need to get something from those to qualify just for the playoffs. That's pretty stark in this new format. They could get relegated out, and that is not what you would expect of a team of this ilk. There's so much else for Manchester City to worry about with the 115 charges, that case still hanging over them consistently.

It sounds like it was sort of wrapped up last week and now the panel go away to deliberate. So, yeah, on and off the pitch, it's a bit precarious for City. But you would never bet against them fighting back and turning it around. And maybe it's a game like Sunday against Manchester United if they can finally sort of break this sequence and then get themselves up and running for City.

for the festive period and the second half of the campaign, then we know there is still quality there. We know their record. The expectations we have of them are so high that they've got it in them to turn this around. But right now, it looks bleak. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned the word fight there, David, as well, and the back page of the Mirror has, so you've got to fight now, Pep.

Simon Mullock in Turin for the newspaper here. Says Pep Guardiola's men are down to 22nd place in the table. They've lost seven of their last 10 games. Almost certain to need a playoff to reach the last 16 of a tournament their favourites to win. Pep Guardiola looking slightly perplexed in that photograph as well. We can bring in Charlotte Dunker from The Times who's in Pilsen ahead of Manchester United's game. Charlotte, welcome along. How extraordinary is this? And

How much of a challenge is it now for Pep Guardiola? Not the defining challenge, I suppose, but a significant one in his storied career?

Yeah, it's a challenge like we've said on here before, one that he's definitely not used to. When he signed that contract extension and he said he was looking for new challenges, we're not sure that this is certainly the one that he was after. But I think when I went to the Champions League draw for the new elongated format and none of us would have expected Manchester City to be in the position that they're in. And we speak about them having a small squad. We speak about the problems that they've had in terms of injuries and

how threadbare they have been. Now we're talking about them potentially having to play an extra two games that many of us never expected them to have to play. Obviously, if you finish in those top eight places in this league format, you go straight through to the last 16. It's looking likely now. I don't think they're going to go out. They've got two more games to save themselves. And this is Manchester City. We've always seen them fight back.

I do think they will go through, but it's looking more and more likely that they are going to have to have those playoff games. That's two more games after Christmas. Maybe they'll have a few more players back, but it's two more games that they don't necessarily need and don't necessarily want. No, absolutely not, particularly with the physical state of the team or apparent physical state. Let's look at the Telegraph Sport with a...

Very cunning front page headline there. Juventus 2-0 Man City, Old Lady 2-0 Old Men. Time catches up with City. A picture of Kevin De Bruyne looking pretty weary as he trudges off the pitch in Turin. David, is this a case of father time catching up with City before Guardiola realise? Has there been a lot of oversight? What do you take on that angle that perhaps it is just an ageing squad? That's the reason for the collapse.

Well, it is an aging squad, Teddy, and it is catching up with them from what we can see. Let's take our hats off to the likes of De Bruyne and Walker, who have been outstanding for so many years, and look at their trophy haul. But they're into their 30s now. Their contracts are drawing towards a close, so there's uncertainty about their futures. They're picking up injuries. And if you go across the squad, they're edging towards that 30 mark in various positions.

And you reflect on some of the transfer windows that have gone past and say to yourself, could they have done a little bit more to rejuvenate? Could they have held on to some of the young players that they released from the club? Most notably, Cole Palmer. That conversation will go on for a long time. Even others like Taylor Harwood-Bellis and so on. They've produced so many from their academy. But it seems they're relying on these senior stalwarts who have delivered time and again. But right now, it's not really happening anymore.

And you might look towards the January window and say, could they use that to really inject their season with a bit of life and some fresh bodies? I don't know if they will definitely plan to. The sense you get from conversation is that they could well, but something needs to change. And

And even if it's not in January, it will have to be next summer because the contract situations, if you actually look to the summer of 2026, they've got a whole raft of big name players who are out of contract. So they'll need to address that. Chiki Begiristain, the sporting director, who's done such a fantastic job, will be moving on in January.

the summer and he'll be replaced by Hugo Viana. Of course, Pep Guardiola has agreed to stay on with his new contract and things haven't been particularly good since he signed that new deal. But we know his quality too. He did say in interviews before the match that he doesn't intend to manage any other club. He can't do it all again, maybe at international level. And when you see this sort of effect on

it's having on him this season. Maybe you understand why. Yeah, an extraordinary 16, 17 years for Guardiola, hasn't it? The very top of the game, but this is a really challenging time. Up next for City is Manchester United, Charlotte and Ruben Amarim, who's, I guess, provided one of the lowlights for Guardiola with that 4-1 loss at Sporting. How's the balance of power going into this Manchester derby, albeit the Etihad? It's quite intriguing, isn't it?

I think it's been a really long time since we've been going into a Manchester derby where neither of the teams have really been in any sort of form. I think it's going to be interesting, obviously, to see how both teams go into this. It's a Manchester derby, it's a cliche, but anything could happen. But Manchester United have gone there over the past few years, massive, massive underdogs overall.

with Manchester City fighting for the title right at the top of the table. It's very rare for them to go there against a Manchester City side like you've already said that have only won one in their last ten. So Amarim had Pep Guardiola's number in the Champions League just a few weeks ago, so he knows how to beat a Manchester City team, albeit that was with a squad that he'd been working with for many, many years. At Manchester United now he's got a big team

different tasks. So I don't think we can just say Amarim has already beaten Pep Guardiola this season, so it's going to be easy for him. But it's the first time for a really long time that there's a Manchester derby where City aren't pushing for the title or pushing for honours further up the table. So the balance of the game is going to be really interesting. Yeah, very tricky one to call, isn't it? I'll tell you, an informed team now. Arsenal had a difficult period, but we can reflect on their victory over Monaco. 3-0 now, Bakayosaka with two on the night, up to nine for the season. 20 goal involvements back

page of the mirror on the right hand side of the picture of Pep. Arsenal hit the buck of the net because that looks probably better than it is to sound. But how impressive are Arsenal at the moment, David? Third in the league stage standings. We know it's really tight, but could this be their season in Europe?

The Champions League form has been really impressive on the whole and that's reflected by the position in the table you mentioned there. So they should qualify automatically and they'll be delighted with that. I mean, they should have had an absolute hatful tonight. If you watch the game, their chances to win 6-7, 8-0 and they'll want to be more clinical with their finishing in all competitions. But there were three goals from open play after everybody's been talking about them being set-piece merchants. They've not...

you know, been at their very best this season. That's clear. It's not been as fluid as they would like. And the Fulham draw was a missed opportunity given Liverpool didn't play and Manchester City drew.

but we know they're going to be competitive. They've matured nicely under Mikel Arteta. They've got strength in all areas. Let's see if they also try and do something in the January market. Again, I'm not sure. I think it would be more of a focus on the summer, but they're sitting in good positions. And after the setback like Fulham, you've

This is when you see an Arsenal team that doesn't overreact, doesn't panic, and they respond with a performance like they did tonight. Saka has just been an absolute stalwart for them. He's irrepressible and he turns up, he delivers for them in times of need. I don't know where they would be without him. And also Martin Odegaard coming back to form and fitness has been absolutely essential.

You'll want to see others weighing in with the goals. But when you look through the team and you look at their sort of identity and their competitiveness, they will expect a challenge for trophies this season. And I think they need to. Mikel Arteta signed his new contract and he only won the FA Cup in 2020 behind closed doors. So he'll want a piece of silverware at least.

And I think the fans expect it now too. It's a kind of delivery phase. Look at the age profile of some of the players they've signed, especially last summer. And it's time to make that step up, but it's not easy. And that's the job of Arteta. I just wonder there, David references the January transfer window for Arsenal. Bakayo Saka now 23. I just wonder if the trophy weight goes on, do Arsenal fans start to worry that maybe he looks like

at Pastures New because he's a world-class talent, isn't he? And perhaps he should be winning trophies season in, season out. He seems to have a really good relationship with Mikel Arteta and I think everyone there believes in the journey that Arsenal are going on. If it does happen that they do miss out on a trophy again this season, I think it will be very narrowly and they know that their time is going to come. They keep improving, they keep learning on their past mistakes, they keep getting closer and closer. So I get what you're saying in terms of

Would he look to go somewhere in terms of where he's guaranteed to win trophies? But what team would that be? Where would he want to go? I think, does he want to go and play somewhere else in Europe? Possibly. Is it not in a competitive league? Does he want to maybe go to La Liga? That's a totally different lifestyle, different part of his career question. If he's one of the best players in the Premier League at the moment, he's flying at Arsenal, he gets on with everyone there. I think

It would be a definite shame to see him leave because I think everyone there believes in what Arsenal are doing, believes in the project that Arteta has got. And over the years, they have slowly got closer and closer. So why can't this year be the year that they finally get over the line? Back page of The Times goes with the headline Saudi World Cup backlash.

FIFA award winter 2034 event with round of applause. Fans and elite clubs react with dismay. Charlotte, your colleague Martin Ziegler with the story here. FIFA has awarded Saudi Arabia the 2034 World Cup by a round of applause instead of a vote and immediately sparked a backlash over human rights and the timing of another winter tournament. We'll get to the human rights and the logistics of maybe a January 2035, Charlotte, but first of all,

How bizarre, how surreal, how artificial was this whole exhibition today? Yeah, well, I mean, for a start, it wasn't a surprise, was it, to any of us to hear that Saudi Arabia were going to get the World Cup. But if anyone's not seen the images of Infantino stood there and all the Zoom, like, taglines

behind of everyone clapping. It is honestly, it's absolutely farcical. I think the people that have organised it, just the spectacle of the whole thing, for everyone to sit, stand there and clap and then for them to come out and say, oh, by the way, that wasn't how people voted with the clapping. What were they clapping for? Why were they even on the screen? The whole thing, it was just absolutely farcical. And we know that there was only one bid.

the whole thing about it and then we're going to go into sports washing the human rights element lgbtq plus women's rights over there there's so many things the fact that it's another winter world cup there's so many things wrong with it but unfortunately i don't think any of us were surprised with what happened today but yeah if i urge if anyone's not seen the the whole zoom clapping fiasco to go and watch it because it's one of those images i don't think that we would ever be associated with sport

It felt like AI had created it to a certain extent, didn't it? Let's go to the Telegraph Sport front page of the supplement. Keep LGBT fans safe, FA warns Saudi after backing World Cup. Tom Morgan, the sports news correspondent in Zurich, has here the top line, David. The Football Association backed the Saudi Arabia World Cup after demanding that the LGBT England fans would not be arrested. We've had Human Rights Alliances put out detailed statements. David, how important is it that

that people lean on Saudi Arabia over the human rights issue or is it too late now they've got the World Cup? It's never too late and even FIFA and Gianni Infantino, whatever you might think about him, pointed out that this is...

an area in need of improvement, as did the FIFA inspection, which ranked Saudi Arabia's bid as being sort of medium for human rights. And so it's a key topic. And it was at the Qatar World Cup. I was out there for the entirety. It was something that was heavily reported on.

by us and others in the British and European global media. And it will be a pertinent issue again. I do hate lecturing other countries on human rights and their record in various areas when there's a lot wrong with our own country too. And I was recently over there in Saudi Arabia for some work. And, you know, just listening to people on the ground, it's obviously, firstly, you're seeing it with your own eyes. But secondly, you know,

they're not lecturing us on a lot of the failings in our own land. And that's something we need to keep a bit of balance on as well. In terms of the awards of the tournaments, yeah, I mean, it was preordained really, wasn't it? But that's not unique. You see it with the Olympics, the 24 and 28 games.

pretty similar and the Euros, the 28 and 32 competitions, I don't think were even a procession like this. I think it was the X-Coast that just gave the two awards in those cases. So there's a lot that we can scrutinize on this. Saudi Arabia will be held to account and rightly so, as would any nation holding a tournament. We saw it. I was out in Russia in 2018 as well.

We came away from both of those, many of us thinking it was a good tournament. I'm sure this will be as well. And a lot for us to reflect on at home as well as abroad.

Charlotte, Guardian Supplement has a vote without a vote as the headline, the Saudi World Cup is an act of violence and disdain. The shamelessness of FIFA's process was finally on show in Zurich during a display of contempt for governance, democracy, love, hope and good sense. Barney Rone writing that piece. Charlotte, the democracy aspect of it, we've got a president unopposed in Gianni Infantino. Do we need to have...

more choice in the whole process, starting with the awards of FIFA positions and then going to things like the World Cup? I think with FIFA, we've known for a long time the way that they operate in terms of Infantino being unopposed in his role. So if you want to get into a discussion about that, then it's going to be a discussion about the way the whole thing is run, to be honest, not just the awarding of this. It's like David said there, that goes on in other sports as well. I think what was more, we didn't necessarily need the specials

that went with today. If they just stood up there and announced who it was without all the nation states behind applauding, then that would have been a bit different. But in this situation, like you said, he is unopposed. We've known that for a long while. There's a lot of people who don't agree with the way that FIFA is ran, but for that to change, there needs to be wholesale change from top to bottom.

Indeed. And logistically, quickly, David, how complicated is this going to get? January 2035 we're looking at for the Saudi Arabian World Cup?

Yeah, it's going to be hard in terms of the time of the year with potential clashes. There's Ramadan, there's other sporting events, there's the leagues that could be very angry. Again, the logistics of 2030, by the way, with the travel and the carbon footprint, so the environmental element of it all. But this is happening. It's an unstoppable move in terms of Saudi Arabia, the various sports, Formula One, boxing, golf, snooker, and so on.

We've got to accept that that's the way things are going. And so it's not ideal on so many levels, but that doesn't mean it won't be happening.

OK, talking of not ideal, we know that Charlotte's out covering Manchester United. Let's have a discussion about them. Ruben Amarim in Europe to face Victoria Pilsen. Ruben's on red alert in the sun. Charlotte Ruben and Amarim told Manchester United stars they're all on trial before the January transfer window. I know you've been present with some of Amarim's conferences. How serious is he here, do you think? How much jeopardy is there for the players? Yeah.

Yeah, so that remark there was in response to whether Manchester United would need to sell players to buy players maybe in the January transfer window. And his response to that was that he's only just started working with these players. He needs to work with the players that he's got, see what he's got and then do with that. And he says if the results don't come, then that's when he looked to change things. He didn't mention himself in that, to be fair. He says that's when he looked to change the coach. That's when he looked to change the players. So I think he was saying...

what he was saying wasn't necessarily that all these players are at risk of losing their place within the squad, within the team, and that Manchester United are going to have a fire sale of all their star players. What he was saying was that he wants to work with what he's got. He mentioned the academy, mentioned improving the academy, bringing players through that way. We do know that Manchester United are in a lot of financial difficulty at the minute as well, so the thought of them having copious amounts of money to spend in January seems very unlikely, but

This is a work in progress. And at the minute, he's trying to see which players he has within his squad that is available to him who can play in the style, the formation that he wants. So very much at the beginning of that process, I can't imagine that he's going to be at the end of it by the time the January transfer window begins either. So, yeah, it's going to be an interesting few months for him. There's a lot on his plate, isn't there, David? Let's look at the back page of the mail for...

Financial rules will force United to sell stars. They've got Pep from Bad to Worse as the main headline ahead of the Manchester derby. But also another story for Manchester United. Sammy Mockbell has the real reason for Ashworth's shock United exit. With Ashworth's departure, he's had to answer questions on that and the financial picture at Manchester United. David, how complicated is it?

It's not easy at all. And that's what happens when, you know, they've got £300 million worth of losses. They had another spend of £200 million last summer. They're going to have to cut their cloth accordingly going forward. And that's why you see stories like Marcus Rashford and others being in the shop window if suitable offers arrive. That's a big if, though, for many of those players. Anthony, for example, too.

And so it's going to be a really rocky time for Manchester United on and probably off the pitch. And Ruben Amorim and the executives, right from Sir Jim Ratcliffe as owner down through the system, are going to have a job on their hands. And no Dan Ashworth there now either. David, absolutely. We'll see how they get on Thursday. Charlotte will be watching. Thank you both for your company tonight.