Another ridiculous red, but Arsenal find a way
59:04 Share

REI Co-op presents a mini mindfulness break. Take a deep breath in. Picture yourself on a mountain. As you hold your breath, look down at your skis, freshly waxed thanks to your REI membership, carving through powder like a knife to warm butter. Breathe out slowly. Let the air leave your lungs like you'd leave your local co-op with all the gear, clothing, classes, and advice you could hope for. Make time to opt outside. REI.com.

You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook. Meet Factor, your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef-crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietician-approved, chef-prepared, and you-plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with Factor. Learn more at factormeals.com.

Every cup of Nespresso coffee is an invitation to transform your morning routine into a ritual you can treasure each and every day. Using the Virtuo Pop, a simple touch of the button, freshly brews bold aromas and a rich velvety crema layer for delicious cafe quality coffee at home. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot or over ice, every sip every morning is unforgettable.

Nothing tastes like Nespresso coffee. Visit Nespresso.com or our app to explore our full range of easy-to-use machines and coffees not found anywhere else. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

The only way to score is, of course, to play with a hand-break-off. Hello, I'm Ian Stone. This is Hand-Break-Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. On Saturday, the Arsenal beat Wolves 1-0 at Molineux. It's a lot to talk about. So we're going to talk about it. I'm joined by Amy Lawrence and Adrian Clarke. Good morning. Hello. Morning. Morning.

Morning. I don't think there's anywhere else to start than with a red card. Michael Oliver sent off Myles Lewis Skelly in the 43rd minute for what he deemed and what they've since supported him deeming serious foul play on Five Live. Mark Chapman and Pat Nevin described the decision as baffling and nonsensical.

from supposedly one of our best referees in a bar so low even a limbo dancing snake could get under it. It's a weird image, but I get it. And Wrighty took to Instagram to say it's a joke. Anyone who's played the game, and he said, I'm not even talking Premier League, I'm talking five-a-side Sunday League. It's never a red. This is the highest level of football, and we do not have the highest level of referees. We're nowhere near it. PGMOL has reportedly stood by this decision. So we were wondering,

Who do you think would do a better job of running the PGMOL? I thought, I remember when Have I Got News For You, there was a politician called Roy Hattersley who was going to go on and he cancelled them. He cancelled on them and they replaced him with a tub of lard, right? It was this sort of tub of lard. If there's any young people in, lard is like a sort of fat substance that people use for cooking. So I'd be happy with a tub of lard at this point. Or maybe we could give it out as a prize in the lottery. And...

Maybe someone, essentially anyone but Howard Webb, I think is what I'm saying. What about you, Amy? What are you saying? Well, along similar veins, I can't remember the gentleman's name, but there was a really sweet chap who went for an interview at the BBC once. Oh,

I love this guy. I think he was going for, I don't know, a kind of behind the scenes job of some description and ended up in the chair on live TV being interviewed as if he was someone completely different. About something he knew nothing about. I know, but he gave it a good go. He did. And he was fair and honest in his interview.

in his limited circumstances. I think I would rather, I think his name was somebody, Goma or something. I'm going to just look it up. Guy Goma. Oh, here we go. Oh, what a lovely guy. Check him out, people. Look up Guy Goma, BBC interview. He's a Congolese French business studies graduate from Brazzaville in the Republic of Congo. Came to the BBC for a job interview as a data cleanser.

but ended up being interviewed. It was quite serious. About Apple Corps versus Apple Computer and its ramifications for the music industry. By the way, just quickly, the interview on air lasted 10 minutes. How unbelievable is that?

I mean, can I just say, as someone who's done stand-up comedy to silence in the past, 10 minutes is a tremendous amount of time. Really, if you really don't know what you're doing, that is hard work. Bless him. Anyway, he'll be better than our web. I'm saying tub a lard. He'll be better than our web. What are you saying, Adrian? You, because, you know, Stan... Me? Yeah, look, you know...

You don't think there might be some slight unconscious Arsenal bias if I'm the head of the PGM? Listen, if they want me to do it, I'm happy to step in. Yeah. I mean, stand-up comics, you know, could do a more serious job of running the organisation than the current life. No, no, look.

To double down on it, I feel would be frankly outrageous. But let's see. It's only rumour at the moment. Arsenal have to appeal this. And if the appeal isn't upheld, then we've got ourselves a real issue. Well, yeah, I think that's true. Well, let's get into it, right? On French broadcasters Canal Plus.

The commentators were convinced the red card would be overturned and at half-time asked whether they were sleeping in the VAR room. Here's what Mikel Arteta had to say on the matter. I think it's that clear that I'll leave it to you guys. I'm absolutely fuming, but I'll leave it with you because it's that obvious that I don't think my words are going to help. We've had a couple of bits of correspondence on the red card.

First, we had an email from Rohan who wants to ask Adrian the following. How did you stay so calm on commentary when Miles got sent off? Well, can I just say that Amy said she was listening to you and you were apoplectic, I think is the word you used, Amy, right? So was that the word you used or something like that?

Incandescent, I think it was. Incandescent, exactly. But like calmly incandescent. It was very, you know, you did it beautifully, Adrian. And also, Adrian, on a similar thing, do you think former professional players would make better refs than the current crop officiating? Would it have been a pathway you would consider in today's game? Yeah, I don't know how calm I was, really. It was one of those, I was thinking after, oh, I hope no one clips that up.

Because, you know, by my standards, I did go as far as I could go. But I was just being myself. I was being an Arsenal supporter and someone that was clearly outraged by an injustice. It was an awful decision. I think it was the worst red I've seen. And that was my instant reaction. Worst one this season? Worse than Declan Rice?

I actually thought the Trossard one was worse. Did you? It was bad because that was Oliver, wasn't it? Yeah. I thought that one was worse than Declan Rice, the Trossard. But this for me was on a whole new level because it's clearly just a trip and nothing more. And it's a definite yellow. And never, ever, ever, ever has it been worthy of a red card. And...

you know, for anyone really to, to, to suggest it was, I just don't think they would understand football. And Adrian, what about the thing about former professional players? I mean, I, I mean, they always say that they always say that, but then do they really want to do it? Well, I've got some information on this and the PFA have linked up with the PGMOL. And in the summer, they launched a player to match official scheme. Basically,

out a pathway for players to become professional referees. 120 players or former players expressed an interest, which I think is quite low, but it's still 120 people and 10 to 12 have been selected and

to undertake a three-year course, which will be sort of fast-tracking them to the big time, I guess. So it is going to happen. Academy scholars also have to take referee courses as well these days. So it is happening. I think there's a danger. Personally, I think that these players should really have had very limited first-team experience because you wouldn't want sort of –

anyone being accused of bias, you know, for their former clubs and whatnot. But yeah, I think it's a great thing. I mean, we lose too many footballers full stop anyway. It's a ruthless game. And to keep people in it that understand it, that have played it to a good level, I think is fantastic. So yeah, I'm all for it. And my honest opinion, I've been fairly consistent on this, is that, you know, this is whatever the opposite of a golden generation is.

That's what we have at the moment in regards to the standard of Premier League referees. What's the least valuable precious metal? Yeah, that's true. A tin generation? I don't know. Yeah, no, no. You know, writing. Let us know what is the opposite of the golden generation. Well, I thought the opposite of the golden generation. What's happening at Tottenham? Yeah.

And we'll get on to that at some point. Amy, do you have anything to add? And by the way, Rohan, thank you. Rohan said, thanks for the great show and have a great week. We will. We will. Because we beat Wolves 1-0. Amy, have you got anything to add? I mean, do you think former professional players would make better refs? I'd certainly like to give it a try. I just think overall, you know, the nature of any evolution is that things, you know, you change, you respond, you try and improve whatever your walk of life.

And I think that the biggest struggle I have with all of this is the PGMOL's culture, I suppose, of being this arcane closed shop. It's impenetrable to the outside world. They do things their own way. There is certainly an impression that they don't really want to listen or collaborate with other stakeholders in the game. And there's clearly a feeling, which I understand, that you look after your own. And

In a job of that nature, that tends to be the case. It's a difficult job and you're under a lot of pressure from the outside. So it's natural that I think you're going to try and kind of have a ring around yourselves and look after each other. But is that helpful in terms of how a multinational, multimillion, billion pound industry works?

is being looked after. And I'm not sure that's the case. Being held hostage is what I would say, actually, to be honest. I mean, I know those are sort of strong words. And by the way, we know that Michael Oliver, or certainly I've read that Michael Oliver had some death threats. And of course, it's abhorrent and stupid. And I wish these keyboard warriors would just go away.

Do you know what? The way that the PGRML seems to have the game in its hand and when everyone else disagrees and they double down, it's not healthy, is it, Amy? No, it's not. I think, you know, a little bit of self-awareness, a little bit of self-assessment is something that we all need in our lives, whatever you do, whoever you are. And, you know, I can only speak for myself and I still feel, you know, I've been around the block a few times that...

I want help. I'd like, if I do something wrong, I would own up. You know, who wants drama and stress? No one. And I just think that, unfortunately, it seems that one of the biggest sadnesses I find about the whole VAR scenario since it's been introduced is that I actually really

was for it as a concept to help referees with a job where it is absolutely going to happen that people will make mistakes. It's a subjective thing. Most of the time, you're making a judgment call on something that's happening a thousand miles an hour. There's 22 players on the pitch you've got to try and keep an eye on. And there's one of you, admittedly, with a couple of assistants on the side. It's not...

It's not possible to get right 100% of the time. Also, the rules have become increasingly convoluted

They're changing all the time. And the players don't help as well in the way that they behave sometimes. But the point about having an assistant having help shouldn't be to validate your mistakes and cover up for you. It should be to help you. And if I, you know, I can only imagine being in that situation. If I've got someone that can say, actually have another look at that. I'm not sure that's right, mate. I'd be so happy to have that backup, that safety net.

And the fact that it isn't used like that is really sad to me because it could be a real force for good. And it ends up being a force for kind of entrenched conflict. Adrian? Yeah, no, I'm in full agreement, really. I've always said since it started that the VAR team should be specialist VAR people. They shouldn't be part of the refereeing team.

The referees shouldn't be on VAR because it's, there's too much personal relationships there. It should be a completely separate entity. It's VAR specialists, not the refs. You're one or the other. And because there is a hierarchy within, within the refereeing community. And, and in this case, Darren England was, you know,

In fairness, for me, I think he's made a bigger mistake than Michael Oliver. We can all make mistakes. We can all misread situations. But for him not to refer him to the screen is...

He's inexplicable, I'm afraid. Why does he even have to refer him? I always thought this rule was a bit ridiculous. Why does he even have to refer him to the screen? Why didn't he just say to him, you know what, mate, you got that one wrong? And no one would judge the referees harshly in that situation. All we would say is, oh, actually, the on-pitch referee got it wrong, but the off-pitch referee got it right. And we misspoke.

move on and no it doesn't undermine Michael Oliver this is the sort of stuff that undermines Michael Oliver the stuff that's happened now I just think you don't want you don't want two referees you know there's one referee in charge of the game how can it be that the man in charge of the game doesn't see the decision the big decision of the game the referee has got to see it

You can't see everything, Adrian. No, no, no. You can do your best. No, no, no. On the camera. Oh, I see. On the camera. How can you have the big decision of the game unseen by the actual referee if it's changed? Like that to me is a bizarre concept. I think he has to make the final decision is my opinion. But,

but send him to the screen and let him make his mind up when he sees the replay. One other thing about replays though, Adrian, as well, sometimes when you watch things in slow motion, it doesn't give you, I don't think, an entirely honest impression

version of what happened. You can see there are definitely stills of, of, of Miles Lewis Skelly, where it looks like he's raking his foot down the guy's leg. And that doesn't tell you what happened in that situation. So I understand the point you're making. I mean, are we, are we all in agreement? Right. Every, every club thinks that referees are out to get them. And I think it's not true. It's not true. But, but,

Michael Oliver and his history with Arsenal. Of teams he's reffed over 40 times, he's given out eight red cards against us. The nearest equivalent is five against Tottenham and Everton. Now, fans of other clubs would say, well, that is indiscipline and maybe there's something in that. But when, for example, Mateo Kovacic did an awful tackle on Declan Rice in a City game last season and Oliver doesn't want to show a second yellow card because he doesn't want to spoil the game.

Is it not perfectly legitimate, Amy, for questions to be asked? Yeah, it's not helpful, is it? I mean, I think overall, analysing every decision to within an inch of its life is not helpful. But we, you know, we end up in a situation where this is happening because people are feeling victimised or people are feeling that things are not fair or that the level playing field is not quite balanced.

That's why those conversations, that's why you find, you know, I must have seen 20 different incidents over the weekend on social media of people picking out, you know,

various tackles supposedly over the ankle that happened this weekend in a ton of different games or this season. Well, it was one that happened in this game and they were giving a yellow. Well, that was in that. I think that was the other thing that was very, it was pouring, you know, pouring a lot of fuel onto the fire that, because again, you know, it's, it's very, I haven't heard a justification for that, but that was my first instinct. Yeah.

is please can you explain the two of them? And then at least I can try and understand where you're coming from because it just feels very strange. You know, but I think you can tie yourself in knots and I don't think it's helpful that you've had these statements coming out or things being leaked saying about things like being extremely late, which appears not to be in the rule book anywhere regarding serious foul play. And, you know, all the things that are supposed to be taken into account, the force of a challenge endangering an opponent, etc.

We're not taking into account on this incident. So it seems to be judged on different criteria. And this is, again, where I feel that the way that regulations currently are with all these, you know, it's like micro-reffing. And I think if you want to micro-reff, you can find a way to excuse or decry pretty much any incident in the game.

One more question to each of you. Well, to both of you, really. How does this change? If fans switched off in large numbers, I saw a lot of posts and me and Amy talked about it over the weekend about how, you know, people saying after a halftime game, what is the point of even watching this game? What is the point? And when football fans, because you know how much we love it, and when we think, what is the point? Obviously, I think most people did stay with it. But if fans started switching off in large numbers, Adrian, do you think

the premier league would take it off them i mean i mean i personally would be secretly training up new referees and just go no we've got new ones now we're i think everything has to be on the table doesn't it i think yeah you know we've seen splits before we've seen new bodies formed before you know that that that has to be that has to be a possibility doesn't it doesn't it moving forwards yeah it's got to make major changes i'm just thinking about would it have helped if

We had a statement from Michael Oliver. Obviously, the one person we haven't heard from is Michael Oliver yet. If he thinks he made a mistake, would it be better or worse for him to sort of come out and make a statement? I don't know. Accountability as well. What do they do if it is deemed a mistake? You can infer that it's not because of the PJMOL statement. Yeah. And ultimately...

It's a subjective thing. And if he looked at that and felt that it was over the top, you know, we have to, we kind of have to accept, we might disagree with it, but it's not something that's a kind of a data-driven thing that's a yes or a no, that's a fact that's black or white. And that's where so many of these problems end up kind of

festering yeah VAR has made it worse hasn't it Amy because if that was if it was just him it's just Michael Oliver there at the weekend he makes a rash decision it's a red and we all disagree with it and we're up in arms but but but but he has no help and that's it you have to get on with it as you would do in the championship but he has helped yeah I

I think you move on much quicker because we all know that humans can make mistakes and we, we do accept that. What we, what we find really hard as football supporters to accept is that somebody else who's had all that access to, to all the replays that we've seen has, has not, has not changed that call. And, and that has just, it's just made everything so much, so much worse. I just think really that, you know, we, we will be having this conversation again, right? Maybe this season,

Maybe more than once this season. Maybe this season, maybe next week. Maybe next week, exactly. But the real key for people who love football, whoever you are, whoever you support, whoever you play for, whatever, is this. Is what we're watching best practice? Do we think, PGMOL, think the way that they're operating is best practice? I'd really like to know. I think that all the major stakeholders agree

for the good of the game, could have a little bit of honest chat and see if there's a different way. See what we can do to help. If your football team had one option in their playbook, their results probably wouldn't be great.

The same could be said for your investments. SIBO index options like SPX and XSP can help expand your investing strategies with cash settlement and potential tax advantages. If you're ready for a more dynamic game plan, head to betterwithoptions.com. SIBO. Life is better with options. Your investments could be too. There are risks associated with SIBO company products. Review the disclosures and disclaimers at SIBO.com slash US underscore disclaimers.

The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options, which is why with USAA auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply. USAA.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. During tax season, your personal info travels to a lot of places, between payroll, your tax consultant, and the IRS. If your W-2 gets exposed, that's just the ticket for identity thieves. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it guaranteed or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

Let's move on at this point because, you know, we could have this conversation for another hour. And as Amy and all of us are saying, we'll probably have it next week when someone gets sent off for looking at the referee in a funny way. Against Man City. Against Manchester City, which, let's be fair, has already happened this season. Wolves 0, Arsenal 1. Amy, Wolves 0.

What a performance after all that, particularly second half. I mean, first off, I didn't see the game live. I watched the highlights and the highlights were Kai Havertz missing really good chances is what they were. But they came out in the second half and everyone is praising our attitude and our spirit and the way that we took the game to them. I mean, these things can mean a lot. I mean, we did discuss after the game whether it was a f***

And one of the things you were saying was, well, it doesn't totally qualify because he's not against a major rival. But going down to 10 men away from home in a game that we have to win, we're Liverpool cruising against Ipswich and we did the business. We somehow dug out a 1-0. I have to admit, and I really thank everybody who comes onto social media to engage about ****.

off wins because it makes me quite proud really that so many people understand what I was getting at by that terminology. And I'm wondering whether my

ridiculously strict criteria for f*** off wins needs to be addressed and I should, you know, maybe let's evolve. Are you holding your hands up? Are you going to issue a statement? Well, exactly. But I mean, you know, yes, it was a f*** off win in spirit. I mean, you know, if I'm going to be true to this ridiculous thing that

I vented a while ago the criteria that has to be away from home against a major rival. But in terms of the environment, the circumstances, the way the lads responded and what it means, yeah, it was. And somebody else very brilliantly said, maybe it was more of a f*** you win. And so perhaps that's the alternative way of looking at it. It would give it a kind of subsection. I'm all for that, yeah. But it was... Actually, it made me feel...

warm into the pit of my stomach and my soul because it kind of took me back to George Graham days and, you know, up against it. You know, he was a master of siege mentality, go a goal down. It felt to me in my memory that nearly all the time I also went down to 10 men, they won back in those days. I'm sure that wasn't true, but there was definitely a

a reaction feeling within the team that they were able to generate that was a mixture of outstanding sort of tactical acumen to deal with that situation and profound winning mentality, which they were able to harness. And one of the things that I found really gutting about some of the sendings off earlier on in the season, particularly Brighton and Man City, was the

That sense of, come on, just win the game, just win the game. And I thought in both cases, Arsenal could have done. I thought the Bournemouth one, particularly in the light of how they've gone on to become, is much more understandable. Arsenal weren't great on the day. Bournemouth are a very, very good team. But certainly Man City and Brighton were games that Arsenal could have seen out. And Man City very nearly did. And you know what that means when you do.

You know what that gives a team inside its heart, inside those beings that live together every day on the training ground. And for them to have been able to do that this time, which they didn't quite manage early on in the season, I have hope and I'm really interested to see how that helps them as a platform for the rest of the season. Because maybe the kind of psychological consequences of being tested in that way

But of staying on course and getting the result they needed at the end of, let's face it, a mental few weeks of football where the challenges have been crazy. And, you know, those players have had to just keep going. And they found those reserves to, you know, to find the winner. And, you know, for that...

yes, f*** off win of some sort. Yeah, I would say. Adrian, I mean, the dressing room must have been a great place in that final whistle. You could see how much it meant to the players on the pitch celebrating with the fans. I know in my house there was some celebration. I actually woke my Mrs. Up who was having an afternoon nap to tell her that we'd won even though actually she knew we'd scored because of the screaming when we did. But,

But those things mean so much to a team. I mean, there is no doubt in the professionalism and the spirit in this squad. Yeah, no, it would have meant a lot. Yeah, you could definitely see it. It would have galvanised the team. That much is true. I still think it was more of an FU than an F off, personally, because of the quality of the opposition. Wolves are poor, and they were poor in this game. I said on commentary when it happened, I said, look, Wolves,

We can still win this game. We can still win it 10 v 11 if it lasts until 90 minutes with 10 v 11 as it didn't. But if it hadn't, I still think we would have won the game because Wolves were scared of their own shadows. But what I did like here was the attitude and the proactiveness of the team because...

In the past, we sort of gone a bit defensive and looked to protect a clean sheet maybe. Here, we just kind of went for it. And I had a little look at something called an action areas map, which is where the ball is really in a spell of a game. And from obviously the sending off was 43rd minute. So the 15 minutes after halftime, 55% of the game was played in the final third for us.

30 odd percent in the middle third and I think 14 percent in our defensive third. We basically were down to 10 when we said stuff this. We're still going to play the same way and we're going to attack you and we're going to score goals. And, you know, it took a while to get there.

Obviously, they had to go down to 10 men for us to breach them. But I'm confident we would have won regardless of whether Jao Gomez was sent off or not. So, yeah, really, really good response from the team. And do you know what? Mikel Arteta deserves praise because he was calm, wasn't he? And he really settled the players down. Because if he had gone off on one, that

That feeling of sort of injustice might have just gone through the dressing room and they've got too angry, too worked up. But I think he just said, look, boys...

Obviously, that's ridiculous. We're good enough. We'll deal with that later. But we've got a game to win here and you lot can win it. And he went about finding a way to win it. And I liked it. Was it 4-2-3, I think, would have been the formation in that second half? Or 4-4-1 if you're looking at it cautiously. It was the right thing to do. Well done, everyone. Tonelli with the ball in towards Havertz. And Samedo can go on again from Calicuri, the substitute.

And now it's 1-0 to the Arsenal. Well, let's talk about Riccardo Calafiori. He doesn't get many, but they're beautiful strikes, aren't they? Amy, I mean, if he stays fit, we know what an addition to the team he can be. We know how good he is going forward. We saw it playing for Italy in the Euros last summer. That was a sweet strike, wasn't it, that? I just think he brings something a little bit different. He brings something brave and unpredictable and...

You can tell there's a bit of him that's maybe not been sort of like super coached into the system yet, I feel. He still has this little bit of kind of freedom somehow when he plays Calafiori, you know, gambling, finding himself in places that you don't expect him, having a go, not taking an extra touch, just going for it, which...

Adrian, I'll ask you this because I was relying on your commentary sitting at home in a filthy mood for quite a lot of that match pacing about. But it was hard to know because you haven't seen it live. But it felt to me like one of those where I was thinking, it sounds like they've come out with a great attitude and they're going for it. But where's the goal coming from? Because...

Seemed like Martinelli wasn't having his best match, like Trossard was doing some good things, but without being necessarily influential. Obviously, no Odegaard there. Nwanehri coming off, which was a consequence of the ridiculous card. I was worried about, you know, where the attacking numbers and threats were going to come from. Havertz had great chances, got into great positions, didn't quite have the finishing line.

And you're thinking, who's going to find that shot? Who's going to be the man? And I think that's where people like Calafuri and Rice, who I think's got that as well, give this team something it really needs. Completely. Yeah, you need adventure. You need a little bit of...

And has there not been quite enough of that, Adrian, this season? I think that's a legitimate claim, you know, point of view, whatnot. We've been quite neat and tidy without really going and hurt teams. The performance at Palace, remember when we scored five?

We chucked about five or six into the box every attack we went on and it paid off. We looked a bit vulnerable with the ball going the other way in that game as well. Palace had two and they could have had a few more. Exactly. But we actually showed a lot of panache and adventure and boldness in that game that maybe we probably need to do a bit more often. I think in this game, yeah, Calafuri, I think Maim is right. Calafuri, it's kind of like he refuses to be shackled. Yeah.

And he's like, no, I'm not having that. I'll just go and do what I want to do. And yeah, he's come up with two great goals. Technically, it was a great goal, wasn't it? I really enjoyed the nature of it. And yeah, and Rice. I mean, since you brought him up,

I thought he was our man on a match, clearly. Absolutely stellar performance from Declan Rice. Captain's performance, really. And on that, you know, I get it because he's relatively new and whatnot. He doesn't need the armband. Obviously, I think, was it Gabriel in this game that had the armband? He doesn't need it, I know. But I do think from next season onwards, he should be the official vice-captain because he is...

the leader. He is the one that takes responsibility and that's what he did in this game. He took responsibility. No one made more passes. No one created more chances. His off the ball work was fantastic in terms of regaining the ball, making tackles and athletically,

He ran further than anyone else at 11.79 kilometers. His average speed was higher than all of the starters, which means he's not slowing down. He's here, there, and everywhere. His top speed, incidentally, was second only to Gabriele Martinelli. Really? He was the driving force. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the driving force of this win. There's no doubt about that.

and I think it goes up there into the top three sort of Declan Rice performances for me since he came because of the circumstances he didn't score he didn't play a part in the goal but

It was his mentality that I think rubbed off on everyone else. It was all about forward. There was nothing else in his mind other than we have to win this. Money well spent, I would say. We've said that before. Amy, Kai Havertz has said he missed some chances. Forwards missed chances. He does miss good ones. I mean, I'm often reminded of Alan Smith.

with the headed chances, particularly the ball in from Trossard, where he had the whole goal to aim at. I understand why he went back across, because that is what forwards are told to do, right? But there was a big old gap to the left of their keeper, and I thought that was a bad miss. And the one in the second half that went over the bar...

I think we have to acknowledge how hard he works and he's leading the line and he never really misses a moment of any game. Did you see him at the end of the game? Yeah, shattered, yeah. Absolutely shattered. He's cooked. Yeah, he is. He looks like that at the end of every game. He is playing all the time. Like, I don't know because I haven't had a time to look, but I would imagine if you draw a few comparisons around a lot of other top teams...

especially teams in Europe as well, how many of those teams pretty much have one centre-forward doing everything? And I think it counts. How can he be fresh? You know, we have to help him. I think that the fact that he's getting into those positions and he's working as hard as he does, I saw a stat somewhere saying that he was, I think, second of all Premier League players for distance covered this season.

He needs occasional breather or someone to help him out. It's not a terrible thing that sometimes you play 60 minutes or 75 minutes or sometimes you come on as a sub for half an hour. I think that will help him to be fresher and sharper in those split-second moments. But the fact that he's still getting himself into the positions is helpful.

And we're still making chances, Adrian, as well. You know, I mean, and there are times he seems like such a confidence player. If he's on a streak, we know how many goals he scored last season. He's still got 15 this season. It isn't like, you know, we look at strikers who are struggling, properly struggling, and you wouldn't say that about him, but he needs a bit of help, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. Completely. Amy's hit on the reason why we desperately need that extra striker. Yeah.

that we've always said we've desperately needed that extra striker. Centre forwards have to be explosive. And when you run into the ground, you lose your explosiveness. You lose sharpness. It's all about the two or three yards you make to get ahead of your defenders. It's about mental brightness as well as it is physical sharpness. And if that sharpness, mental or physical, is dented or dullened by focus,

which is completely... Yeah, no, I just made it up. But if it's blunted by fatigue, then the edge will go. But he's getting on the end of them though, Adrian. It's more the technique to finish, isn't it? Or am I just being harsh? Yeah, but I still think it's sharpness and explosiveness. I just think it matters.

I don't think he's the world's best finisher. Even if he was fresh as a daisy, he probably would still miss chances. But the point remains that

you don't want to flog your one striker and run them into the ground really because it's such an important position, such an important position. It turns draws into wins. Just on the stats of this game, he ran the third furthest in this game behind Rice and Trossard. He made over 300 intensive runs, which is a lot. He made the most pressures, which is closing people down. 42 of those. The next closest was Martinelli on 30 runs.

Six of his pressures resulted in turnovers. No one forced more turnovers than Kai Havertz. So he does do a lot of work. I didn't think it was his best game. I've got to be honest in terms of hold up play and his finishing but...

There's a lot to like about Kai Havertz. We just also need an alternative. I think everyone's agreed on that. Yeah, and obviously, if there was one on the bench, he would have brought one on. But he didn't make any changes until quite late on. Obviously, Calafiori at half-time for Ethan Waneri. And then Chiarantini for Gabriel Martinelli in the 87th minute.

I mean, Amy, it really speaks of the sort of paucity of choices on the bench. Yeah, but even when you saw the team line up, it was like, you get something back, you get something else taken away. You know, great that Saliba was back, great that Nwanehri was back, but where was Odegaard and where was Mourinho? So, you know... This is the season we're having. There's still a kind of, a really, really narrow selection of players to choose from for the manager. And I think that's going to be

sort of the case until they try and get to Dubai and get a few bodies and minds back to feeling sunny and beautiful and optimistic Sunny and beautiful and optimistic that's what we're looking for This is M Break Off the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic

They get a handbrake off and you can see that they are more free to play. Ian Stone, Adrian Clarke and Amy Lawrence on the Athletics Arsenal podcast. Handbrake off. Jay, our producer, has written, what's the record for the earliest St Tottenham's day? I don't know, but we might break it this year. Ipswich. Ipswich have lost the same amount of games as Spurs this season. Isn't that glorious?

They're in the drop. They're in the relegation dogfight. They're in the relegation fight. They are. And they've got, and by the way, I was looking at their fixtures. I actually started, I thought, well, I'll have a look at their fixtures. They have not got an easy run for the next couple of months. They've got games they have to win because if they don't, they're in trouble. It is transfer deadline day next Monday.

I mean, we have the same conversation about referees, Amy. And we're having the same conversation about transfer deadline day. We're looking...

It doesn't feel particularly hopeful, does it? In fact, to be honest, I mean, there's so few moves going on. It's not just us. No one, no one seems to be buying anyone. Except for Man City. Man City are buying. But aside from them, they're preparing for League Two, aren't they, City? So obviously they've got to get, you know, I'm sure there are all sorts of relegation clauses in the new players' contracts. Amy, where's your hope-o-meter right now in terms of transfers? Oh, blimey. LAUGHTER

Do you know what? That's enough of an answer. Lower than a snake's belly, wouldn't it? Exactly. Yeah. Lower than a snake in a wagon track, as I heard on some blues tune the other day. I suspect something will happen because it kind of has to, but it's just what that something is. Won't we link with a Norwegian midfielder or something? I mean, that's exactly what we need. I think he's doing a tour of...

clubs. And I think that that is a possible, but by no means a certainty. Yeah. Adrian, I mean, same, isn't it really? It is what it is. Yeah, it is. And I do appreciate it's really hard to get these deals done. In January particularly. Yeah, but you say that, but players have been signed in January and made a real difference. We signed Aubameyang, didn't we, in January? You know, that was a complicated trade.

No, he was meant to come in the summer, but he was late. You can get these things done. I just think it has to be done because without it, you know, I'm a big optimist. I'm a big fan of this team and I still believe we're better than Liverpool. I just do. Things have just conspired against us injury-wise.

Red card-wise, et cetera, decisions-wise this season. That, for me, is the reason behind the gap. Hand on heart, I don't think we will win the league unless we bring in a forward or the Champions League. That is just my feeling. If we bring in someone very, very handy, it changes everything for me. And I do think everything is on if we bring a major striker in. If we bring in two forwards...

Adrian, Adrian, Adrian. Where's that come from? I'm just saying, it's all on. And has there ever been a better time?

To push the boat out because City have been dreadful. So it's a golden opportunity to win the league. And has the Champions League ever been this week? Yeah. It's so wide open this season. Absolutely a team of Arsenal's level and standing can win the Champions League. But the bottom line is, can we win it with what we've got? I don't know whether we can. No. But one or two additions and...

I absolutely believe we can. So this is a really, really important week. And, you know, I just hope that those in power can get the job done. And Amy, they must be having those conversations. They must be having exactly the same conversations that we're having. Yeah, just following on from what Adrian was saying there. I was thinking about this the other day and actually the platform that Arsenal have given themselves, given that it's still January, is kind of remarkable. And, you know,

If you look at where Arsenal are in the league and the Champions League, there's basically only one team in the entirety of Europe who is bettering Arsenal at the moment in terms of that kind of double mission, and that's Liverpool. The next best is basically Arsenal, who are second in the league and third in the Champions League, and Barcelona, who it's reversed. They're second in the Champions League and third in La Liga.

Everybody else, every other team in Europe looks at where those teams are and thinks, wouldn't mind being where they are. And this is on the back of absolutely chronic bad luck with injuries. False endings off. Some very, very difficult to accept refereeing decisions over the course of the season that have impacted on games and impacted on points. Yes. Even a couple of those things being different.

And Arsenal would be right on the heels of Liverpool, despite having had so many complications in terms of the squad this season that there's been umpteen changes constantly of personnel. And you can moan and groan and all, look at Arsenal, you know, one season Man City are struggling, you know, Arsenal aren't in a position to capitalise. Or you can flip it.

and say, hang on a second, this squad have actually done something fairly amazing so far. It might not feel like it because it's not been the most enjoyable. It's not been an electrifying ride full of, you know, super highs. It's been a slog. Clung in, hung in there, haven't we? But they've hung in there. Now, exactly what you say, Adrian, can Arsenal take the initiative from this position and say, right,

Let's see what can be done in these next few months. It's there. It's there. I'm telling you, it's there. There are exciting things on the table, but Arsenal need to grab that knife and fork and, you know. Tuck in. And tuck in. Adrian, you sound like me, by the way, can I just say. And well done. I'm glad that finally you've come around. It's much more fun this way, though, isn't it, really? Because there's been a lot of moaning, let's be fair. But I think what Amy said is absolutely right.

Let's appreciate what they've done so far with all the incidents and decisions and all the rest of it they've gone against us. Girona up next on a Wednesday night in the final Champions League group stage game. Adrian, it is a chance to give a few players a rest, but also the higher we finish, the higher our seeding is in terms of going forward in the Champions League. If we finish third...

We might not have to play Liverpool until the semi-final or Barcelona until the semi-final. If we finish seventh or eighth, we might have to play both of them a bit earlier on. So it's worth it, isn't it? I've looked at this. Yeah. And actually, it doesn't really matter whether you finish third, fourth, fifth or sixth, actually. You will avoid the top four if we're not in it until the semis. You'll avoid the top two until the semis. Yeah. The main seeds. So...

I think that that is a prize worth chasing. I think top six, if we get in our heads, think top six and you kind of avoid your Liverpool and Barcelona until the semifinals. You could, of course, finish second and draw Real Madrid. There's a little bit of bad, you know, fortune in there, of course. But I think top six is what we need to aim for. There's only one team we really need to worry about on that. And that's Atalanta. As in, they're the only ones that can knock us out of the top six.

They're the only team, but they've got Barcelona away, which is a tough game and they would need to win that and for us to lose and everyone else wins for us to drop out of the top six. So we're in a really good position. I think rotation has to happen ahead of City. I would go Trossard up front for this game. I would give Kai the night off. I'd leave David Raya at home.

I think this is maybe Neto's chance to have a game. Amy's shaking her head. No, Amy's not having that. What's the point in having him then? I think Setford would be better placed. Better placed than Neto? Well, I don't know what Neto looks like. I've never seen him. I'm starting to question whether he actually exists. Neto was all right at Bournemouth, I thought. I mean, I haven't seen him for ourselves. Well, I don't know. You know when goalies get to a certain point and they kind of...

sort of go I just think it's an opportunity to leave two or three or four absolute integral players out of the team and still get the job done Girona aren't great they're out already they lost 3-0 at home to Real Madrid 4-1 at home to Barcelona they lost 3-0 at Atletico we can win this with a rotated team in my opinion but there you go I'm just going to say something to really annoy everybody

So that's my warning. But a friend of mine called JD, who's quite thoughtful about these things, made the point the other day. He was complaining about the rules of multi-club ownership and allowing clubs who are run by the same organization to be in the same competition, i.e. in this case, Girona.

owned by the same as Manchester City in their multi-club ownership model, playing Arsenal three days before Arsenal play Man City, or whatever four days it is. And, you know, the conspiracy theorists out there might be interested if Girona, who are already out, suddenly fly into Arsenal. Let us see. Kick us off the park. Let us see.

It's an interesting concept. Oh my God, really? All right then. Well, if that happens, Amy, if they play really well, that is the only reason that that is, right? Because the owners have said, here's a million quid each, right? Here's a lovely trip to some nine-star hotel in the...

in Abu Dhabi I don't think that happens these days I just don't think I don't think that happens either right I don't think that happens but but multi-club ownership is the point on the ownership is it is a good one is

It's a really good point, though. It's a really good point. It's an absolute joke and it shouldn't happen. But you know what? It's one of the many issues. We'll talk about that in more detail at some point because we do have Man City on the weekend, next weekend as well. Oh, by the way, one thing we didn't mention in the game, David Ryan made two or three excellent saves against Wolves and I think it should be acknowledged. I thought he played really, really well. And another...

big reason that we won that game. Anyway, let's have a song to finish. Amy, what have you got for us? I am going to go for Miles Lewis Skelly. Got to look after our people. Sugar Bear, don't scandalise mine. I've said it before once more, time has to tell us mine. Yeah, got to look after our people. Lovely, well-balanced chap and he

And hopefully the appeal, if it even has to happen, which I imagine it will now, will be in our favour. We don't really want to lose him for three games. Adrian, what about you? Yeah, I couldn't resist this one. In light of what happened earlier on in the season at Manchester City, in light of what happened with Martinelli, with a double yellow, out of Marlon U, it's Britney Spears. Oops, I did it again. I did it again.

And why not? Amy's trying not to laugh, but it is quite funny. I've gone for talking heads and blind, all right? And you can decide what you're going to attribute that to. Blind, blind, blind, blind, blind.

That is it for this edition of Hand Break Off. Thanks to Adrian. Thank you to Amy and thank you to Jay, our producer. We'll be back after Girona on Wednesday, so we'll be back on Thursday. See you then. Ta-ra.