Arsenal through the generations
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. The only way to score is of course to play with a handbrake off. Hello I'm Ian Stone and this is Handbrake Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Now as you will know we didn't have a game this weekend so the good people at The Athletic thought they'd bring you a little special podcast and for some inexplicable reason a

Aside from the intro, they didn't need me to do anything. So here's Amy Lawrence to tell you what it's all about. Happy listening. Hi, everyone. We're here at Handbrake. We thought this week we would do something a little bit different. This idea was the inspiration of our very own Art de Rocher, who, after the West Ham game, when it looked like things were going a certain way as regards the league...

was talking to one of his mates and I think in his own words had a bit of an existential crisis. But what it is to be an Arsenal fan and wondering about how their experience is compared to others. And we had a little bit of a chat about this. And I think often when you're on this pod, Art, and when you're talking to some of us who are a bit older than you, and we're talking about things we've seen that Arsenal have won and players we've seen that are invincible and all-time greats.

There's an awareness that your experience is not the same. So what we thought we'd do was a bit of a multi-generational fan gathering. So we've gathered together representatives of different age groups to try and get a handle on what we share about our Arsenal experience and what might be completely different just by virtue of when we were born and what our Arsenal life looks like.

So I just want to make a very nice introduction. We'll start off with our teenage rep, which is Arthur. Welcome, Arthur. Hello. Hi. Hello, Arthur. Moving on to Art, our mid-20s rep. How are you doing, Arthur?

I'm good, thanks. Much better than last week has been. Good. So yeah, all good, thanks. From the middle-aged contingent, it's yours truly. And our vintage Arsenal watcher is Richard. How did you do that? Let's start it off by talking about what was the first Arsenal game you attended or your first Arsenal memory. So let's start with you, Richard. Okay, that's a good one. I...

was born a Gooner. All the people that I knew were Gooners. All my family were supporters. And a cousin of mine who was probably 15 to 20 years older took me to Arsenal v. Luton. I'm pretty sure it was a 2-1. And you've got to remember, Luton at that time

You know, they were cut finalists, Luke Nottingham Forrest, and it was a big deal. But it didn't kind of become a big deal for me. It was already a big deal for me. So it just felt like a natural progress. And roughly what era are we talking about? You're talking about the late 50s, I'm afraid. Okay.

So a lot of Arsenal years under your belt. I haven't got quite so many. My first game was in the late 70s, Arsenal against Forest, 3-0. And I was taken along by my best friend's dad at the time. Moving on to Art, when does your Arsenal experience start?

Yeah, I fear this is going to make you and Richard feel sick. But mine, unfortunately, wasn't at Highbury. It was at the Emirates. Mate! Okay, thank you. I'm signing out. And it was an Emirates Cup game. Again, like Richard, actually, my cousin, my older cousin took me. He's about 11 years older than me and it was against PSG. So I think it was actually the first Emirates Cup game ever in 2007. And...

And similar to Richard as well, it was more a time of when rather than if. So it was already a big deal. And yeah, that's kind of where I went to my first game. But of course, the memories and stuff were already there. So my first big memory, unfortunately, is the Champions League final of 2006. But yeah.

yeah I'm sure we can get into that a bit later and we'll move on to Arthur. Okay Arthur your dad said to me before that you came home from school one day when you were about five and announced that you were going to be an Arsenal supporter yeah and he said you have never wavered so tell me a little bit about your introduction to Arsenal and roughly what period that was in the club's history. I think it was in year two so like 2016-17 and

One of my friends from school just told me that he supported Arsenal and I was just starting to get into football and stuff. So then he said he supported Arsenal. So I just sort of did as well and then told my dad he was fuming. You don't have any concerns about the choice you made? No, I'm happy. Excellent. Very good.

We're lucky enough that we all go to matches and attend. What is your favourite thing about a match day? What do you look forward to about actually going to the Emirates? Arthur, why don't you start? What I look forward to most is just the actual match, just watching and getting to see the players close. But it didn't start well because at my first game, we drew 0-0 to Hull in the prim, I think it was. It was...

Not the best start, but it's gone a lot better now. Good. What about you, Art? It's quite similar. Mine's just kick-off. I hate the wait between finding out the line-up and then wait until kick-off. I find that hour, or it's actually...

75 minutes now I find that so hard to deal with because you're just sat there waiting for it all to kind of kick off so yeah once everything's all started I'm a bit calmer Richard what about you? Because I have a large family and four or five

grandsons, all of whom have become very keen on football and the Arsenal in particular. It's a very big deal because it will start at an early lunch and it will end, obviously, sometime after the end of the game. And the coming to the game and the being together

with that generation, not my children. I emphasize that. Two of my sons come as well, but I'm much more interested in being with and sitting with grandsons on...

Sunday, was it? Saturday. It was Saturday. My two youngest grandsons were only the second or third time. And probably with the youngest, it was the first time he'd actually understood quite what was at stake. And when we were walking back to the car park, he turned to me and he said, well, at least it was a very nice afternoon and the sun was shining. And I thought, oh my God, he's making it, he's eight and he's making it, what a life lies ahead.

for this young man. Well, that just chimes so much in the sense that, you know, I think when you've been particularly going for a long time, it's that sense of family and friendship and you have to be able to enjoy the whole experience and not just the match. Obviously, everybody who's going is passionate about what happens on the pitch and what the result is.

But for me, seeing old friends, having hugs with people, having a laugh that, you know, the chats that we have, the fun that we have, the being able to scream and shout and say things that I can't say in the street and let a bit of energy out that way is as much a part of it as actually what's going on on the pitch. I think I couldn't have one without the other. So that's...

That's my feeling about going to the game. What kind of football do you most associate with Arsenal? I'm going to start with you, Arthur. Stylistically, what would you say Arsenal means to you? Well, I think we play quite methodical, planned through football.

It's normally quite like the same sort of like sequences. Okay. What about you, Art? Interesting because methodical probably would have been the last word I would have used. And that's just a product of growing up in that era, which was the early Emirates. So you kind of already transitioned away from Patrick Vieira type of midfielder.

into a Cesc Fabregas type of midfielder. And those were the guys that I kind of looked at as, okay, this is football, passing, moving, and not really having to think about what the next pass is. It just happened.

And I think for me, that was just the Wenger years where Wenger ball, everyone spoke about that and how everything was about small creative players, diminutive players, which some people who maybe weren't within the Arsenal bubble kind of looked down upon in a way, but I was actually quite happy with. And now I think part of why, where this kind of conversations come up from is because as Arthur's kind of touched on there,

kind of moved away from that in recent years and I think for a lot of people who are in my generation or maybe even the generation before me it's almost like that identity crisis of okay what is an Arsenal team what is it actually supposed to look like and yeah I'd be really interested to kind of

both your answer, Amy and Richard, because obviously you guys have gone through cycles and cycles and cycles of different types of Arsenal. I love that idea that, you know, I think it's very easy. We judge things, you know, at the moment, especially nowadays, today's world. And, you know, there's this idea that, you know, I laugh sometimes when people talk, you know, we were, you know, certain clubs who haven't won

a lot of stuff, are having a go because Arsenal are, you know, second again, ole, ole, or whatever it might be. And you think, well, hang on, I've seen Arsenal win the league five times. I've seen umpteen different types of football. And you talk about Wengerborn and I think about George Graham and 1-0 to the Arsenal, which I love just as much, but differently. But Rich, you would have seen even more. Look, it's so incredible because it's really an extension of what you've all said. I mean,

My life has been governed by three, for me, three great, not necessarily teams, but periods, which clearly the original double winning side, which because I was much younger, had a huge influence on how I saw other teams in relation to how we play. And, you know, for me, I've never seen a strike force like Radford and Kennedy. Now,

That's nothing to do with the quality of their football. When you've got huge investment in what you're watching and they are actually performing incredibly well, it's the perfect combination. And then we move on to really the George Graham era.

and the Liverpool League win. And that team, where I probably feel more emotional, maybe because of Rocky, maybe because of that night, but more emotional about that team than any other. And then, of course, you've got the last 10 years where you saw incredible things. You saw things that you never thought you would see. And

You know, I remember Henri scoring very early on in a massive game against Chelsea one evening. One of those ridiculous goals from way out wide, which was completely unstoppable. And you think, this is a moment that I'm never going to, nothing's ever going to get any better. And it doesn't. Yes, there's huge disappointment when you don't win the European Cup, but it's never going to compete with the satisfaction from the great man. Never.

I think there's something really interesting about that. There's a whole, you know, if you take a cross section of the Arsenal fan base, there's an enormous percentage who are of an age that have seen Arsenal win the league. And then there's a quite significant percentage as the years go by, which includes Art and Arthur, who haven't. Does that mean that we feel totally differently about watching our football? I mean, let's start with you, Arthur, and then come to you, Art. You know, do you feel that

Winning the league, you know, or not winning the league and not having seen it, does it kind of get at you in terms of how you feel about Arsenal or how you talk to other fans, to your mates and things like that? Not really, because I only really started watching when we were, like, terrible in, like, lockdown and eighth season after season. And so I'm still decently happy with the way and the position we're in. Yeah.

I'm not annoyed that we haven't won the league. I mean, I am, but not as annoyed as you guys might be. And do you think these last, not this season, but the last couple of seasons running Man City close, has that made you feel that things are possible that you maybe didn't imagine when you were younger? Yeah, definitely, yeah. Art?

Yeah, in terms of, I guess, the feeling of never acknowledging or having a conscious kind of support of Arsenal when they've won the league, I think for myself, it gets to a point where you kind of get tired, I think. Exhausted. Yeah, because the first season I remember watching was the 2005-06 season, and I'm

So of course you've already kind of come away from the FA Cup win at the Millennium Stadium. And then for the next nine years, nothing happens or it seems like nothing happens. So that's when I guess the football and the style of football became the most important thing or more important than winning because you knew that even if Arsenal didn't win the league, they played arguably the best stuff in the league.

And for me, I guess that, I wouldn't say it put less importance on winning the league, but it just made me maybe view football in a totally different way where not everything was about winning. And I ask a question, Amy. Of course. For both of you and Arnott. If we now, not this year, next year, all we won was the FA Cup, how much of a compensation would that be?

I think it'd be good to win it, but I don't think it'd be much of a...

for coming second three years in a row. But it would still be great to win it. Okay. So the first trophy I remember Arsenal winning was the FA Cup. Which year was that? Hull City. Oh, the Hull? Well, that was, I mean, to be fair, that was one of the great games. That was massive. I was 16. So that was, again, first actual trophy. And you...

you felt, okay, this is a moment. Then you win it again the next year, win it again in 2017. And it's almost like, okay, you've kind of checked that objective off now. Let's do the next thing. So for me, I don't think it would be much of a consolation because now, not that I'm accustomed to winning FA Cups, but...

I have seen and acknowledged four FA Cup wins and the shine not has kind of come off because you'd love to win any trophy, but you want to see that next step, I think. Richard, I'd like to throw that back at you. Would it be compensation enough for you to win the FA Cup only? Well, maybe my emotional, the length of my kind of emotional history, it would still be

And this is why I asked the question. I think it would still mean more to me than almost any of you, because I remember what a big deal it was. I mean, it was huge. Don't let's kid ourselves. It was huge. Can I just ask you, Richard? So before, I guess, the double in 77, you won. Can you remember? So between that and your first game, can you remember the feeling of, I guess, Arsenal not winning and then winning?

how it felt in that period? What we had was a dreadfully ordinary team. And you didn't have to be, you know, a great football scholar to realize that. We never got going. We never, we used to lose to Birmingham at home. They'd have fake up third round, sort of. It was a serial event, you know. And again, the fuel from the double win

It really took me, I guess, it definitely covered the next five without any question. And I do remember, this is my last comment on this, 17 years of winning nothing.

felt worse then than it does nearly 20 years now. How come? I'm really surprised about that because I think football is so massive now that you get so much more, it's more intrusive in your everyday life than how people react to you. Yes. In the 70s or the 60s or the 80s, loads of people didn't even care about football when you compare that to now. When we were supporters at Highbury in those days,

particularly the 60s and the 70s, where you had huge crowds, really. You could have an art. I remember going to a Derby County replay, third round FA Cup on a Wednesday, 63,000. So what you actually had was, we are the Arsenal.

Hold on. We are the Arsenal. You know, Herbert Chapman threw out. And then you looked at who you supported. And, you know, the Stokes and the Everton and the Fultons and the Burnleys, these were great sides. And they completely kind of disappeared off that radar of expectation. So we were too good to go 17th.

Now, we're kind of not good enough. And that's the problem. But back in those days, the expectation was huge. And Amy, so kind of similar question, because I think there's been a lot of talk about, obviously, if Arsenal do finish second again this year, it'll be three times in a row.

And the last time I think Arsenal did that was between 98 and 2002. Correct. And I was wondering, can you remember what that felt like? Because I don't know if it would have been the same feeling as it is now. Oh, it was infuriating. It just felt like being nearly men, nearly people all the time. And it drove you mad because if you're...

fifth or eighth or twelfth or whatever you know your expectations are in a certain place but if you're second or you're a runner-up in a cup you've you've you've seen you're trying to touch the sun without burning yourself and you end up scalded and that's what so when that happens again and again and again you're thinking what how do you get to that next point and I think that is Arsenal's

most frustrating emotion at this moment in time is this feeling of I sometimes look around at some you know there's people moaning about Arsenal this season but without or the last couple of seasons but without Arsenal there wouldn't be a race you know I mean it's pretty much a procession anyway for Liverpool this season but in the last two years nobody else could take it to Man City

Liverpool did it brilliantly under Klopp prior to that. But for Arsenal to show that another team could come along and have a go at the monsters, at the ogres of football who have all the money and have all the backing and seem to be able to behave whichever way they want without anybody controlling them, it should give the whole of football some hope that if you try and do things the right way, it's possible. But it's not quite possible yet.

But I must say that was a different era, partly because when you think about the quality of player in that team, it was slightly different. I was asked to get Man United the whole way for like six years in that era. But that was a team with Henry and Vieira and Pires and Jungberg and then Sol Campbell and, you know, with immense players. And although they weren't quite ready to be winners in between games,

in 98 and 2002, you knew that they were really close and it was sort of a question of hanging on in there. And I think if we were going to make any kind of comparison with what's going on now, look at the current team and you think, Arsenal have got to hang on to those best players in this team.

and work around it. Because to lose a Saliba or to lose, God forbid, a Saka or something like that now would be horrific. But Arsenal didn't lose their very best players in that period of being second. And so far, Arsenal haven't. You can't see Arsenal! You can't see Arsenal! You can't see!

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Towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo. Just after, I was going to ask, have you had... This is going to sound bad. But have you had a heartbreak when a player's left yet? Have you had one of those? No, not really, no. Because...

No, it would be very new if that happened. I was dreading it when I heard about Saliba. I'm not sure if that's still happening or going on, but I guess it would be a Bamiyang. But by that time, he'd already sort of, everyone knew it was going to happen. And he sort of dropped off a little bit and he got stripped of captain. It wasn't much of a heartbreak at that point. But yeah, not really, no. What was your biggest heartbreak, Art?

Well, you probably already know it, Amy, because of the live show, my Thierry Henry show, I got like two days before he left. But then everything was happening in those years. So Fabregas to Barcelona, Nazri to City, Van Persie to United, all within the span. So I would have been early secondary school years. So you come back to school and you're above the joke immediately.

So I'm actually quite happy that Arthur hasn't had to deal with that. Yeah, long may it last. I'd say Rocky and Ian Wright when they both left just because they were so loved. Those were tough ones in my era. Can I just ask this question? I really do want a one word answer. Is second failure in your eyes? No. Okay. Yeah.

Rich? Sorry, I've got to give you four words. The three words is second failure against Leicester. Yes. I always felt that was the year where there were just no excuses. Okay. You're allowed a couple more words if you want, Arthur, but what would be your answer? Again, it's just the fact that they've just improved so much since when I started. It still doesn't really seem...

like a bad season at all. But I think as it goes on, it could start to seem more like failing again and again to actually win it. But it does still seem like a massive improvement since like four or five seasons ago.

Just changing subjects a little bit. How important is it to you that the manager or the sporting director of the Arsenal are waiting to appoint someone still? Is somebody already associated with the club? Mikel being the manager,

Clearly, he had links already from his playing days. Edu, who until recently was sporting director. I think it's easy as a fan to feel the club's in safe hands when you feel like they get the club. But that's not always necessarily correct. And that's not always going to be the way. Do you think it's important to have Arsenal people representing the club? Do you feel that that connection with who's running it or who's owning it matters? Am I right to go first on this one? Shoot. Because I'm not too attached to that.

Maybe one of the two, but not both, I feel. Because of when I grew up, Arsene Wenger wasn't like, he didn't have any links to Arsenal before he joined. And I feel like by the time you've kind of come out of, I guess, childhood and you kind of understand what's going on, I think by the time you got to that stage, he was almost like a father figure for a lot of Arsenal fans of a certain age. So he was all you knew.

And I think for that to be the case and it for not to be someone even English, I think it just broke down a lot of thinking in terms of, okay, this person has to be from this part of the world or this person has to be, have this link to the club before they join. So for me, I'm not too attached to the thinking of,

Arsenal people everywhere. Obviously, I think in a lot of kind of different roles, it will help massively with that understanding. But for me, I don't know if it's just me being a product of when I was born and stuff, but I am not too attached to that. Arthur, does it matter to you? Yeah, same. I don't think it really matters that much. But I understand what you mean, like how like feeling it's in safe hands because

already caring a lot about the club if they've played for us. But I don't think it's important at all that they have been associated with us before, just as long as they're good. Rich? I just want to know that the people who are handling these things are 100% above reproach. And I'm not sure about it. I'm really not. Now, does a connection with the club mean something? Well, I guess if you're Pat Rice or

you know, somebody from that generation, it hugely does. But some of the later players, it didn't feel like they had Arsenal deeply in their blood. So I regard those as business appointments. Okay, some quick ones just before we finish up. Mikel Arteta renewed his contract in September, showed a lot, you know, it came in having never managed before.

Do you understand when certain sections of the fan base are saying Arteta out if he doesn't win something? Does it make any sense to you? Let's start with you, Arthur. Not really. I think, well, from my point of view, he's just got us from being terrible to so, so good again. And I think it just seems so unfair to him to just sack him after how far he's got us and how far he's still...

getting us I think we could have been in the level we were last season if we didn't have so many injuries maybe even a bit better and I think it would be very unfair if we sacked him now I think he's just our best option Art

I can understand it through the landscape of what Arsenal fandom has become in the last 10 years. And that sense of exhaustion and being tired, I can get it. I personally don't see that happening. I think this is an important point. I think it's diminished now, but I grew up with the Arsenal way.

And it was very much a point that used to be brought out in any criticism in the press or in any comments that, no, Arsenal don't sack their manager. Arsenal live with their managers, work with their managers, and the decisions that the managers made were everything. When this recent disappointment of not buying anything in this window

And Arteta's comments were like, I'm with you guys. I'm as disappointed as you are. And I found that really strange because I thought to myself, well, that's never been my experience, even with Arsene. You always felt, you know, Arsene knows. Arsene brings them in, Arsene gets rid of them. That's all gone. And he clearly wanted somebody, didn't get anybody, and he's pissed off by it. And so would I be.

I think that's a brilliant point. I think even towards the tail end of Arsene's time, I remember asking him about the differences between when he started and, you know, 23 odd years later when it was the end of his era and saying how much has that job that he does changed. And he said,

said quite passionately that the biggest factor is that when he started, he had a tiny staff of five. There was him, there was the physio, there was his assistant manager, there was the youth team manager. It was a really minuscule staff of very closely trusted people.

And he said, now I have a staff of 40. You know, there's whole divisions looking after data analysis and sports science and the medical side and, you know, the video side and everything that they do. And he said, my job now as a manager is not to watch and firsthand make my decisions, but it's to listen to all the experts in all the different fields and filter out what I think is the most important.

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I'm just going to finish up with a quick one just to kind of get a vibe from everyone, which maybe reflects that our different generations. But if you had to pick your all time favourite player, who would that be? I want to go last. OK, I think we're giving you, we'll go in order of how long you've been watching in reverse order. So sorry, Arthur, you've got to go first. I think it might just have to be Saka because of how he's been there the entire time for me and

how consistently good he's been throughout every year. Maybe Udegaard in second because I just love him. He does so much and you see it so much more when you're actually there. So one of them two, yeah. Saka, Udegaard, that's beautifully done and Saka!

with swagger and style. Arthur, you've got the heart of a true supporter. I love it. It's been really nice to hear from you. Okay, Art, you're next. Thankfully, I was conscious enough to catch Henri's last two seasons. So, it's him. A minute to go! Produces a great night at Arsenal at the expense of

He's number one. And I think into the Emirates era, you can pick any of those midfielders. And I loved them all. One of the things I feel strongly about when you have these conversations is there's a really big distinction between a best player and a favourite player. And your best player is, you know, is something that should be more easy to measure. But a favourite player is personal and can be based on just a feeling.

And if it's got to be about that, I will always find myself ending up with Ian Wright. Wright, still Wright, simply superb. It's impossible, having been a supporter during Ian Wright's time playing at the Arsenal, not to have him very, very close. But if you're me, it's Frank McClintock. What a good one. And hooked away the George. It must be McClintock.

And that's clearly the point you've just made in advance of me choosing, because he's definitely not the best. But in terms of favourite, in terms of emotion, in terms of what will I, when I'm lying there and you're like, Richard, just before you finally egg out, what's your favourite memory? You know.

Kissing bloody me, that photograph. What's ever going to come close to that? And that's difficult to convey because it's so long ago. Just that's so perfect because when we think about where Arsenal is now and the thing about Frank McClintock for younger listeners, he was an epic captain.

He would roar at everybody and he cared so deeply. But Frank McClintock joined Arsenal and lost. He was renowned as someone who lost finals. All the time. He gave it everything and he had a reputation. I think he'd lost five finals. Five. And then after everything of being the nearly man, of being close, he won.

And Arsenal won the Fairs Cup in Europe in 1970 and the double in 1971. And he was the captain. And he was the leader and the inspirational guy who gave the speeches, who got everybody going, who wouldn't settle for anything other than the best effort that everyone could muster. And it's a good lesson for us all, I think, to take forward. So I just want to say a million thanks. It's been such a brilliant experience. Love talking to you all. Thanks, Arthur. Keep your positivity going.

Thanks, Rich. Keep enjoying. Thanks, Art. I'll see you soon.