No forwards, no goals
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The only way to score is, of course, to play with a handbrake off. Hello, I'm Ian Stone. This is Handbrake Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Arsenal drew 0-0 away to Nottingham Forest last night. We're going to chat about that game with Art de Rocher and James McNicholas. Morning. Morning. Good morning. Morning.

We got an email from a listener of the pod, to the pod. Rohan, hello, Rohan. Good morning, Ian and company.

It's very formal. It is rather formal, but that's fine. Anyway, good morning, Rohan. Say good morning, fellas. Good morning, Rohan. I hope you enjoyed the game last night. I felt like binning it off there and then, but you know what? Whatever. Far better performance than the weekend gone by. Wouldn't take much though, would it, to be fair? With all the hype that was around the team's trip to Dubai...

how it would reinvigorate, revitalise the team. It all turned out to have pretty much the opposite effect, sort of. Wanted to know if yourself and whoever the guests are on the pod today, that's James and Art, have ever been on a trip they were looking forward to only for it to turn into a nightmare? Art?

Nightmare trips or things that turned into nightmare trips? Thankfully, none of my trips have gone all nightmarish. Well done, Jim. But about nine or ten years ago, my mum went to Thailand. And I think that might have been her first time in Asia. So she was really looking forward to it. But she got food poisoning on the first or second day she was out there. So she ended up spending most of the time just in her hotel room, eating.

not feeling very well. I'll just put it that way. Um, so my mom has one. Uh, I don't really have a bad, uh, trip experience so far. I've got bad trip experiences, but I can't share them on the pod. Um, I, um, uh, I got dengue fever actually in Thailand. I was in a hotel room for a week. I thought I, I actually thought I might die. It was awful. Um, this is not like a top trumps, uh, Mrs. DeRoche. Uh, I'm just saying, uh, James, what about you? Uh,

Do you know what? I've been quite lucky, but I'm a bit worried I might be about to have one of those trips. So obviously, Arsenal are out of the FA Cup. You'll all be painfully aware. No, no, not PSV. Could be, though, you know. I think Amy's going. Might be painful. But yeah, when Arsenal went out of the FA Cup, I was like, I've got a couple of weekends back, right? So make use of them.

So this weekend, I am looking forward to it, but I'm with my brothers and sisters. I'm taking a six-year-old, a four-year-old and a two-year-old to Euro Disney World.

And it, you know, in theory, it'll be great. In practice, it might be hellish and I might return with a torn hamstring. So yeah. Well, ask me next week. Well, to be fair. So me and my brother went when we were six and four. So I can let, um, okay. I can ask my mom how that went. Cause obviously I won't remember. Um,

Yeah, I imagine what will happen is a shadow will pass across her face as she thinks. I mean, it is hard travelling with kids. Interestingly enough, me and my missus took the kids to New Zealand. I was doing a comedy festival over there and they were about four and one and a half. That was a tough trip. That was a tough trip. All I will say is we took a built-up, one of those built-up toilet seats all the way to New Zealand and back.

We had to wait for it to come round on the carousel. We picked it up. You're not allowed to take it in the main cabin. Anyway, Nottingham Forest, nil. Arsenal, nil. I mean, there's a whole load of stuff. Robbie, our producer, has written a whole load of stuff about how it was better than it was against West Ham. But I went round to my mates last night and at the end of it, he says to me,

Thing is, Stoney, we ain't got no strikers, bruv. We ain't got no strikers. And I thought, that really is everything, innit? I mean, the best chance we had, James, Calafiori, nice turn, really nice turn, hit one against the post. I mean, yeah, I guess Marino said, we're just not creating enough because there's nothing good.

Nothing really happening, is there? Is your mate Nuno Espirito Santo the Nottingham Forest manager? Because that's basically what he said after the game as well. Yes, I actually watched the game with Nuno Espirito Santo. You were in the dugout? I was. I was quietly. You wouldn't have seen me. No, he's not. No, he's not. That's what he said as well. What about us or about them? About us. They said... He was asked on the TV coverage after the game, you know, you didn't go to about five today. Sometimes you do in the bigger games. And he went, yeah, well...

They don't have a striker. No, no, we don't. So, you know, we knew the overload would be in midfield. And yeah, you can't really argue with that assessment. I think your interpretation of this game

will probably depend on sort of your expectations going in. My expectations, I have to confess, were pretty low. I kind of felt we were at that point in the season where sort of all the air's come out of the balloon and I saw this as a game Arsenal would probably lose. So a point away from home against the team who are one place behind us in the Premier League,

I'm all right with it. That said, you couldn't say we saw any solution to the issues that are giving us problems at the moment. I mean, I was just reading Jordan Campbell, who was there last night for the Athletic.

And he says, opening paragraph, watching Arsenal try to open up a low block can be a tough watch at the best of times. Watching them try to do it without their first choice, their four first choice attackers is more like watching a simulation. And I know what he means. It feels like you're just watching something play out where you already know the outcome. Yeah, it did feel like that. And it's going to feel like that.

We think for the rest of the season, I mean, April, maybe Sacro Martinelli come back. Art,

Do you know, I'm really struggling this morning, to be honest with you. I mean, the fact that James just said the air came out the balloon and I looked at the date and it's 27th of February. I mean, as I said the other day, it's happened before the clocks have gone forward. And obviously, football has changed so much. You know, as James said, you get a point away from home against a team a place below you in the Premier League. That is a good result.

But with the way Liverpool are playing and the imperious nature of what's going on there, we knew we needed to win and never really felt like we were going to. No, it's been a really tough watch for the past few games, I felt. I think for the past four games in all competitions, Arsenal haven't scored inside the first hour. So the only times they have actually scored were the Marino goals last

at Leicester and it got to a point during yesterday's game where again this is going to sound really bad but I wasn't really expecting a goal to come like I just couldn't see where it would come from and for me personally my expectations I know what James mentioned in terms of how you interpret the game

my expectations was just to kind of hopefully enjoy the football for the rest of the season. Did you? I did not enjoy. The only moments where I enjoyed were, I'm just thinking back through the game, Calafiori,

that Wanyeri turn in the first half as well. Yeah, beautiful. And the little move was Nchenko when he turned out to be offside. But if we're talking about, I guess, going forward and solutions, I think that's now two times better

Arteta's used Zinchenko in move two times more than he's done ever beforehand. So I don't know whether... Leeds must. Leeds must. I don't know whether that will happen again. No, but there are limited choices, aren't there? I mean, assuming that all three of us basically were watching that game thinking we could still be playing now and it's unlikely. We might have nicked one. And we do look solid in defence. One has to say...

Aside from one save that David Roy had to make and one tackle caused actually by his own slightly poor touch from William Saliba. We look pretty comfortable. We can't play a low block ourselves though, can we, James? Because there's no outlet. I mean, obviously we can play with 10 midfielders and defenders, but

but there's no real outlet. What are the solutions going forward? Do you think, I mean, are there solutions? I mean, I mean, I mean, when Raheem Sterling came on last night and, and me and my mate, I mean, I mean, it is getting to the point where football, where Arsenal fans are taking the piss really. And I feel sad for him, but I actually said to my mate, I'd rather have Willian than him. No,

Last night. I'd rather have Will. I am to be honest with you. I just, I don't know what the solutions are. Can you help us, James? I don't know if I can. I don't know if I can. I mean, Mikkel Artet was in full sort of experimentation mode last night, wasn't he? We saw, we saw,

Calafiore playing that really advanced, adventurous role as a full-back. Then we saw Chiarantini back in the folds, Zinchenko in midfield, Marino started up top. He's trying everything. He is trying everything. But I just think the only solution really here is time. With the market being closed...

I don't really know what Miklater can do until he gets some of these attacking players back. I know that's a quite boring answer, but I think this is unfortunately the position we find ourselves in. I don't see a way that it's suddenly going to click because we're missing key pieces. Yeah. I mean, do you think maybe add another left back to the mix? I mean, I think...

That could be good, yeah. We're moving towards the dream of a team full of left-backs. Slowly. We've got Lewis Skelly back from suspension next week, so we can conceivably get him, Calafiori, Zinchenko and Tierney on the pitch together. Kivior as well. Kivior in two. And you know what we should do, by the way? None of them should play at left-back. I think that's the next thing. We should play...

Well, Saka can play left-back when he gets back. Saka can play left-back. He's done it before. All right. Any positives from, I mean, Detlef Rice had a half-decent game. He's covering a bit of ground. He doesn't look quite the same. I mean, I guess none of them do, do they? Really? They all feel, it all feels a bit lost. No.

No, well, that moment I mentioned with Zinchenko, I know it was offside, but it just felt a bit more like football. It did, didn't it? I don't know if that makes sense. No, it did. You know, a little give and go. He gives it, runs in behind, and it was a little offside. But yeah, I know what you mean. Because I feel like...

for the past few weeks, a lot of the football Arsenal have played has been very static. It's very, okay, you have the ball. I'll take a touch and then I'll look up. I'll take another touch and I'm still standing still. Everyone else is still standing still.

oh okay now i'm gonna have to pass the ball backwards or sideways uh whereas in that moment it just felt a bit more free-flowing um which i think everyone would like to see a bit more of so that was my one positive yeah i took from the 90 minutes an offside an offside chance um that came from someone running in behind which still wasn't put away by the way um james i mean i

I am a little worried about our captain. I'll be honest with you. I don't think this has been his best season by any means. I mean, I just think obviously he got the injury. Maybe he's not quite right, but he had almost no effect on that game yesterday. I think his form is not in a good place. And I think he'd probably be the first to say that. I do think that there's a lot of context around it that you have to consider. I mean,

He's a creator playing without the forwards in front of him. All Arsenal's good off-the-ball runners, you'd say, are probably Martinelli, Saka, Havertz as well. These are the players you'd be expecting him to find. They're just not there. Now, I get that he's still one of our star players. He's our captain and people are looking to him for more.

But I wonder if maybe that is bringing its own pressure and that's taking its own toll on him. I mean, since he's come back from that injury, he's played virtually every single minute and he's had to because there's nobody else. And I think, unfortunately, we've got ourselves in a position where when Martin Odegaard is off form, is there another midfielder of that style, of that creativity, with that kind of vision who can ease the creative burden on him? I just don't think there is. And...

He is suffering right now. We are suffering as a consequence. But I think there are plenty of logical reasons for it. And sadly, it does seem to come back to the composition of the squad and not having enough attacking talent to withstand the injuries that we've suffered. This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax.

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you know what albino said didn't he that um we are mathematically safe from relegation this season and next season will be our 100th successive season in the top division uh so you know well done arsenal well done is that a trophy is that a trophy in the venga years a trophy um

I generally don't want to talk about that game anymore. Actually, one thing I saw in there, the draw stat. So I think it's nine for the season. And...

I remember, so the last time we had more was 14 in the 19-20 season. Yeah. And then the season after that, so 2021, there were loads of draws in that season as well. And it just kind of dawned on me then how big a killer those draws actually are. Even if you lose a game, I don't think like...

I don't think the impact is as big because you just lose all your momentum with draws. I think Arsenal do especially. There have been times where they've drawn three games in a row in seasons. And I think them kind of getting into that rhythm, say around Christmas when they drew to Everton, and then I can't remember who they drew to,

quickly after that I think those moments really pivotal this season if you get a 1-0 I think you're in a much better place which is obvious to say but yeah I just think the draws are just so costly and fifth time in the league this season I think we failed to score you know and Liverpool I think it's only once that they've drawn a blank so yeah

You know, we all know what the problems are. I'm not telling anybody anything they don't know, but it is worth just laying out because we have to learn from it. Yeah, and when we think about the games when we've had players sent off and we've drawn, what, four of them? Four out of five? Certainly three. We lost to Bournemouth. We drew with City. We drew with Brighton. We... We beat Wolves, to be fair. We beat Wolves, yeah. But, you know, if we get three wins instead of three draws...

I mean, we are still in it, mathematically at least. But yeah, there's certain things that have killed us this year. And we know where they are, which is also part of the reason that Calafiori was taken off at half-time, even though he was basically, at one point, quite regularly, the most forward player. I mean, he's playing at centre-forward. We're watching it going, who's that? Oh, is that Calafiori? I mean, hey, why not try him? Go on, James. I was just going to say, I thought that first 45 minutes was...

It encapsulated kind of everything we've seen about Calafuri to this point. I thought going forward, he was really exciting. I think Arsenal changed the shape a little bit to allow him to get so forward and so advanced. I thought Declan Rice came from deeper positions and was covering him a little bit. And I was like, this is quite promising, potentially. It lends an air of unpredictability to the Arsenal attack. Yes. At the other end of the pitch, however...

you know he was shown up a little bit I think Hudson-Odoi normally plays on the left of Forrest went over to that right hand side I thought it was interesting they switched the wingers because Elanga didn't really get too much change out of Timber but Hudson-Odoi got Califuri booked after about two minutes wasn't it for that tugging him back just blew past him there was that tangle in the penalty area which wasn't a penalty but at the same time I think you could say Califuri was maybe a bit lucky there you know he was second best in that challenge I think and

And so there is still that kind of defensive vulnerability to his game. I almost feel it's interesting because when he's going forward, he looks a fullback. Like he looks like a guy who's really adventurous and can attack at different angles.

But going backwards, he looks like a centre-half playing at full-back. He's not as comfortable in those sort of 1v1 sprinting on the turn positions. We saw that against West Ham as well, where he didn't get out to Aaron Wan-Bissaka quick enough. So, yeah, you know, if the league season becomes a bit sort of wishy-washy, something I'd like to see is...

you know, how Calafuri develops and changes and can he evolve into a player, a more complete player in both halves of the pitch. Yeah, well, hopefully he'll get another half soon. And then we'll get another 45 minutes to have a look. Ian Stone, Art de Rocha and James McNicholas here on the Athletics Arsenal podcast, Hand Break Off.

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They get a handbrake off and you can see that they are more free to play. This is Handbrake Off. You will have seen that Liverpool beat Newcastle 2-0 last night at Anfield. 13 points ahead of us. They played one game more. It is a bit mad to think that last weekend we were talking about only being five points off them. It's crazy, isn't it? Like a week ago. It's a hell of a swing. Yeah.

I guess losing at home to West Ham will do that to you. Yes, it will. Thanks for the reminder as well. But yeah, you're right. I really wanted to think about that again. ESAC didn't play. I mean, Haaland didn't play against them last week. ESAC didn't play against them last night. I mean, I've said this to people and they sort of get funny about it. But if they don't have Salah and we have Saka, I believe we're top of the league. They have had...

all the luck this year. They're a great team. Don't get me wrong. They look solid. They remind me a little bit of the Invincible team. Our Invincible team. Right through that team.

But they've had luck as well, haven't they, really? Yeah, and you need it. I think that point on Saka is probably true. When you look at Saka's numbers at the time he got injured, he was top of most creative stats. And I think he's still top of a few, even though he hasn't played in two months. I think last season, Arsenal had a fair bit of luck with them.

when you look at injuries, for example. For example, I think Saliba and Gabriel played pretty much every game last season and this year they haven't. So I think it just comes, yeah, with that luck. I don't see it as a kind of conspiracy that they didn't have to play against Izak or Haaland. It's just one of those things. But yeah, when I was watching the game last night, I was just like, why are the commentators mentioning Liverpool ahead? Like, absolutely.

at every opportunity. I don't care anymore. Well, they're trying to build it up, aren't they? I mean, there was a general vibe of all the title race and if Liverpool get ahead and what we need to score. And it was a bit mad because every Arsenal fan is going, shut up. Listen, it's over. It was over at the weekend. It was over. It was over when Saka and Martinelli and Jesus and Havertz got injured. That's what we were all thinking. Mikel Arteta and his...

In the press conference he's given, I mean, the other day when he was asked about if he'd given Harp Hope on the title, he said, over my dead body, which I guess is what he has to say. He said the team could be mid-table given their problems this season. And the fact that we're not...

It's testament to them and what they're doing. It does sound a little bit like Jose Mourinho talking about the second is a trophy when you're finishing beyond Manchester City. But what do you think about that? It's interesting. He was sort of challenged on that. You know, I think a few journalists were sort of slightly taken aback that he said that and said, you know, would that not be a big failure if Arsenal fell back to that sort of position? I see where he's coming from. Like...

Far be it from me to be sympathetic to Spurs, but when you look at the way in which injuries have wreaked havoc on their season, you can see that they can have a really dramatic impact. And I think Arsenal, I think Arsenal, I think he's right in that Arsenal have a sort of tactical and cultural foundation that gives them like a very solid floor to their performance. I think they only ever fall so far under Mikel Arteta, this team. And there is a lot to be said for that.

However, at the same time, we might be looking at a team who are looking at third consecutive second place finish. And so it's like, as good as that floor is, do we do enough to really raise the ceiling? I think it does. If you're talking about floors, I think you have to talk about ceilings as well. Right, there we go. So, yeah, I think that tells you a little bit about the manager in some ways. I think that Arsenal have kind of...

built this very secure stable team that can withstand these hardships but are they a team with that sort of cavalier buccaneering winning spirit that you maybe associate with great title winning sides yeah go on Art I just remembered like a few weeks ago people were talking I think it was on Twitter about the Manchester City game in 2023 and

and how that kind of changed everything for Mikel Arteta's output. The 4-1? Or the away? Yeah, at the Etihad. The one that basically made him, I guess, revert to being more defensively solid and not going toe-to-toe with them. But I was thinking a bit earlier, and there was another game that stood out to me in terms of a positive impact it had on Arteta, and it was the Watford game.

I think James was there where he mentioned the thing about the 300,000 passes. And for me, I was just thinking back and thinking,

the reaction to that game where i think arsenal won 3-2 and it should have been 3-1 um was those passes that he was talking about they were all like in arsenal's own half and then they would spring out really quickly into the opposition half whereas now everything's become about domination and being in the opposition half of the whole game and i think that in itself just takes away

a whole load of space for you to play in naturally. And I was just thinking, well, is it, would it be that bad to go back to a kind of style of football that's a bit more, okay, we'll concentrate possession in our own half and then kind of

springboard from there rather than only playing in one half of the pitch. Yeah, I just wanted to mention it because it was something that kind of interested me. Well, interestingly enough, Kevin in California, listener, hello, Kevin. Is there a way we can find some of the directness of 22-23? How would Arteta do that? Could he? Even if we sacrifice some defensive solidity, we should try, right? Heck no!

Kevin saying this. I don't... Hello. It's Americanism, right? Heck, it'd be something different. And it would be good to try new things in case we need a goal, you know, someday. Yeah, Kevin's saying that. I mean, the thing is, that Manchester City game,

I mean, I know what Mikel Arteta took from that game. We need to be more solid. But you know what? If William Saliba... William Saliba wasn't playing in that game. Rob Holding, I believe, was playing in that game. If William Saliba is up against Erling Haaland, that is a completely different game. And also, by the way, if Rodri is not playing and Tom... If Rodri is playing for us and Thomas Partey is playing for them, we win that game as well, by the way. So, listen, far be it from me to say he took the wrong lessons from that game. But...

I think there is a conversation to be had about whether we are too much about control and about too much possession. Because, by the way, Liverpool beat Man City the weekend with 33% possession or something like that. And they looked in control of that game the whole game. So it's not about playing in the opposition half. Go on, James. No, I agree with you. And something I've talked about for a while is that game and how I felt like,

the trauma of it informed the team building from that point on. And maybe we've kind of overcorrected a little bit in that respect. I keep thinking about this moment from the first leg of the Carabao Cup semi-final, which I know feels a long time ago now, but I keep thinking about Gabriel Martinelli being played through on goal for that one-on-one where he hit the post and kind of the speed of transition from Arsenal and the way they played between the lines and

I also think that we've lost our attackers. And so we're sort of talking about not having a target in the penalty area or attacking threat. We've also lost some of our best pressing players. So we've lost our capacity to turn the ball over as effectively in the opposition half, like Kai Havertz. Havertz is brilliant at that. Martinelli, very good as well. I think Saka's a bit underrated, in fact, in that respect, in terms of the way in which he coordinates with the other players.

Mikel Mourinho, with respect, he can't do that. He cannot do that. And I think his own team, I think David Raya said it in an interview recently that Mourinho, you know, he's a different type of forward because he can't press. A different type of forward? A midfielder? Well, some call that a midfielder, yeah. So I think that's another avenue for kind of chance creation and creating opportunities in space that help break down a low block that we've lost. Yeah.

Yeah. We've got a bit of time off now. We're at the FA Cup. So we've got next Tuesday, PSV away. Art, what do they do between now and then? I mean, I actually don't know what they would do aside from rest up and maybe, I don't know, take their minds off a little bit because it all feels like the weight of it all is a bit too much. Maybe go paintball.

That could be quite painful, can't it? I mean, knowing our lot, we get... Only for the two seconds after the paintball hits you. Oh, we can't get long-term muscular injuries. Okay, okay. Maybe a trip to the cinema, then. Trip to the cinema. Dubai again? Any volunteers for Dubai? Yeah.

No, because we've got a bit of a tough run. We've got PSV away next Tuesday. We've got Man Utd away on March 9th, and as terrible as they are, still a hard game. PSV at home, and then we've got Chelsea at home before the international break when we can play Fulham on the 1st of April. Mikel Arteta didn't rule out Martinelli and Saka coming back after the international break.

Well, that's great he didn't rule that out. I mean, I'd be amazed if we saw Saka at his best before next season, to be honest. No, I mean, it's not... No, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's going to take him a while. That was a serious hamstring injury and obviously Martinelli was the same. James...

I mean, I guess if we get past PSV and we hang in there in the league in terms of second place, we have to see him come back in at some point. But you can't rush these things, can you? No, you can't. I mean, I was thinking about Kai Havertz's injury today. Um...

I don't know if I've ever heard of a hamstring injury keeping someone out for like six months. Harry Kane had a mal as well, but it's a nasty one. We do get nasty hamstring injuries. And three months for Saka, at least we're looking like, and then we don't know what sort of return he'll make. So we can't risk any sort of recurrence there. Like...

Unfortunately, we're in a position where the focus primarily probably has to be on next season and making sure we've got as many players as possible fit and ready to go. Mikel Arteta can't admit that publicly, but I'm sure when he's speaking to his medical staff, that's part of the conversation here, that what's happened this season is bad enough. We have to get into a position where we have as many of these players in the best possible shape come August. Yeah, quite. Which...

really, the last little note that Robbie, our producer, gave to us. How are you feeling about the rest of the season? I mean, it's just depressing to even think about it, isn't it, really? And it's sad in a way because we were so looking forward to, my God, this has been s***.

though, hasn't it? I mean, it's been really, really pants a lot of it. It could have, of course, being football ending some mad glory where we somehow get through against PSV and Real Madrid and Liverpool with, you know, two nil-nils and win on a penalty shootout or something. Yeah,

Yeah, how are you feeling about the season? We don't need to score a goal to win the Champions League. We don't actually need to score a goal. Well, that's good, isn't it, really? That is good. Because like Portugal did in Euro 2016, where they didn't really win a game until the final. Greece also did it that way. Euro 2004, I think it was. Unbelievably defensive. One for the set-piece. Greece wins the Euros. So it's not impossible. And, you know, a solid base...

We'll take you quite a long way, but at some point we're going to have to find some mojo up front. I can't quite work out how. Let's have a song to finish. James, what have you got? What have I got? Well, you know, watching the game, I naturally thought of Everything But The Girl and therefore Everything But The Girl. And I'm going to have to go for their song Missing because it just seemed apt. And I miss you, the presence missed

Yes, yes. What about you, Art? I haven't got a song in mind. No. Have you not? He's thinking about next season's song. This is what we've come to. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Honestly, Art. Listen, Art, it's okay. As long as you're sharp and ready to go by August. Yeah.

You can take the rest of the season off. Do you need resting? Do you need resting? Is that what you need? Okay. Okay. I've got a song. I've got Tired of Waiting by The Kings. All right.

Because I'm sort of waiting for next season. By the way, that doesn't... I don't want you to think, oh, yeah, well, we're not bothering with the ball until then. Because, you know, there'll still be things to talk about. Of course, there will. But we all know where we are. Whatever Mikael says over his dead body. Anyway, tired of waiting by the Kings. That's it for this edition of Hand Break Off. Yeah.

You know, it can get quite funny, by the way, this pod for the next few months. There's this sort of end-of-term attitude about the whole thing. This is what every Tottenham pod must sound like every season. Hey, at least we're not them. Anyway, that's it for this edition. Thanks to James. Thanks to Robbie, our producer. And we'll see you after, well, we're going to be talking on Monday about something or other. And then we'll have something after PSV next week. See you.

♪

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