North London is still red
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

The only way to score is, of course, to play with a hand-break-off. Hello, I'm Ian Stone. This is Hand-Break-Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Last night, the Arsenal beat Spurs 2-1.

at the Emirates, at pulsating Emirates, and North London is still, and always will be, red. To reflect on the game and look ahead to Villa on Saturday, I'm joined by James McNicholas and Art de Rocher. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Ian. Good afternoon. Yes, feeling pretty good. Before we talk about the game, and there's plenty to talk about, I'm sure you both saw the Sal Campbell Google Pixel latest advert

Outstanding sh**t for Mr. Campbell as he urges people to make the switch to something much, much better. Like he did in the summer of 2001. Anyone making drastic changes this month? Any drastic changes?

Not major. Better internet. That is something that is coming up quite soon. So that's getting sorted. That's not drastic. That's just needed in 2025. But towards the end of 2024, I was like, I'm going to learn Spanish again. I'm going to learn Spanish again. And then I forgot to book lessons. So I think...

We're still two weeks into January, so I don't think it's too late to have that as my resolution for this year. So I'm going for that. Right. That's great. I was encouraging new language and well, and keep us posted and maybe, you know, a little bit, maybe we'll have a little section in Spanish.

Yeah, maybe. I did get a B at GCSE level, so there's some still up there, but I'm not confident enough to go for it right now. Right. You can't speak a word of it, but grammatically you understand what's going on. That's generally how it works at GCSE level. James? Well, I've made a change in Jan. I'm doing dry January at the minute. And I've got to say, when Spurs were 1-0 up during that first half, I thought it was all going to go out the window.

And then at full time, when we'd won, I thought he might go out the window again, but I managed to escape. But last night, I was getting away from the ground, and I thought, do you know what? I'm going to get a bike. So I got a line bike, had a sort of electric-powered cycle home. And honestly, maybe that's a game changer. I was so exhilarated by the match that I felt like I was going to take off, like in E.T., you know, just fly across the moon like that. Wait, wait. I just want to show you something. Oh.

There we go. There's E.T. on a bike. E.T. on a bike, on Art's laptop. Oh, no, no, good, good. I like that. My son does that quite regularly, cycles to and from. He's very keen on those drastic changes. I'm thinking about learning the guitar. I was genuinely thinking I might learn the guitar, but what happened was I played in goal five a side, and I think I damaged ligaments in my finger. So I'm going to have to hold on for a little bit.

But I tell you what we'll do, Art. With your Spanish and my guitar, we'll do a sort of flamenco type thing. All right? We'll see. Maybe James. I just got my haircut. My hairdresser said to me, did you wave your maracas around at the game? And I thought, I don't, I think she meant rattle, to be honest with you. I have to go to Fulham for that. Yeah, yeah, quite. Anyway. Erdogan on the move for Arsenal. Quickly through to Chaucer. Got to get somebody in the box now. Arsenal. Chaucer. Doesn't make it.

You can hear, can't you, our mood this morning, this afternoon. Because, you know, after a troubling week, I think we can agree, we won the North London Derby last night. And by the way, this is on the back of Liverpool, dropping two points the night before away at Forest.

Amy Lawrence recorded a little audio for the podcast, which didn't include what she said to me straight after the game. But have a listen to what Amy said. Good evening for a very elated, very relieved, very buoyant Emirates Stadium where Arsenal played the best they played for a number of weeks. They needed to. It was probably the ideal game after the run that they've had.

and they had to show a lot of courage going a goal behind, seemed to be far from the course lately. They just needed to find themselves and they tried to enjoy their football, which was a new element compared to recent matches and it served them well. They're knackered, they're a squad that can't change their personnel very easily, but all those players

knew they had to respond to the occasion. This matters. It mattered for their season, it mattered for their local pride, it mattered for how they feel about themselves. And this seems to be a team that have found something to cling to. Still an immensely challenging period ahead. The game's coming thick and fast and very little opportunity for rest with a very thin squad. But you could see from the end when the final whistle blew

How much it was needed and they feel ready to think try and put a really hard period behind them. Is this the catalyst? The next couple of games will tell. Yeah, there you go. Amy Lawrence at the end of the game. James courage. That was the word that jumped out of me there when they weren't one nil down.

It would have been very easy for the boys to feel sorry for themselves, right? They were, you know, it hasn't gone well. They've started so well. They've battered Tottenham for 20 minutes. Obviously, they do get battered everywhere they go, but we've battered them for 20 minutes and then they've gone up the other end and suddenly we're 1-0 down at home. And you can imagine, and you know, I was looking around at the faces of the fans yesterday

And everyone's going, not again, not again. But the boys, they didn't feel sorry for themselves. They kept coming and they did the job. Yeah. And it was crazy, wasn't it? Because Arsenal was so on top of Spurs in that opening period of the game. Relentless pressure. Spurs couldn't get out. I heard Postacoglu was very critical of the way his team started the game in his press conference. But I think, to be honest, Arsenal just didn't let them settle in any way. And yet suddenly...

out of nowhere Spurs had three chances at the other end and one of them goes in the back of the net and you're just thinking oh it's another one of those games where the margins have gone against us but

We turned it round and I think turning it round or at least getting one goal back, let alone two by half-time was really important. I think if it got to half-time at 1-0, you know, that mood might have started to change in that ground. As it was, you know, we got back quickly enough that I think it kept the atmosphere going, the support going. And it's such an important win. As Amy just said, I think anything else was really kind of unthinkable in terms of what it would have meant for our season, for the mood, for...

For everything and for these players who already look a bit stretched, already look a bit fatigued. I think it just would have taken the wind out of their sails completely. So delighted that we did it in the end. I watched the highlights when I got home and again this morning and again just before, in fact, I came up here to record the podcast. And the commentator said, Arsenal unbeaten in 10 league games.

It didn't feel like that going in, did it? Well, no, mostly because the two games before were cup games. Yeah, but you know what I mean, though. It's hard to square what we were watching with the reality, which is we haven't lost in a league since we lost in November sometime. Yeah, and I think myself and James, we've spoken about it quite a lot in the past week. Just from myself, my own perspective, I was getting really...

frustrated but also questioning everything it was almost like an existential crisis because you just start to see the same things every game every game but I felt what was a big factor last night was the atmosphere I thought that was probably the best it's been since I'd say Porto at home last season right from the start I felt

the home support really kind of encouraged the players to in the first minute I think it was Havertz a tackle on the touchline that kind of led to that first Sterling chance but then even when they went behind it was kind of like it was maybe three years ago when Havertz

They'd go behind, but the crowd really, really kind of brought the energy onto the pitch for the players to feed off. And I think that was really important in that turnaround just before halftime as well. James, did you feel the same way? I certainly did. Do you think it was back to those sort of vibes we felt in 22, 23? Definitely. I was really pleased with that aspect of it because, you know, I know you guys have talked about it on here, about the atmosphere potentially changing.

And I think, obviously, you know, the Cup games, the away fans, the moving of people from seats, people not necessarily having it through their season ticket, that all has a kind of incremental impact. But my feeling as I approached the ground last night was this atmosphere is going to be good. I think

Everything, all other concerns, all those questions that Art mentions, all those doubts, when it's Derby Day, those get set aside. And I think it's quite rare as well to have a night game for a North London Derby. You know, people have been out of work, they've been to the pub, they've had a couple of drinks, etc.

I think that improves the atmosphere as well. So it was raucous in there, really, from before kick-off. And I was quite late making my way into the ground and they were playing North London Forever and all the fans were singing it. And I was actually outside the stadium, but the noise was deafening. And I was like, got to get in there in a hurry. So, yeah, that was a really positive aspect. I think Mikel Arteta will be delighted with that because he's so...

passionate and enthusiastic about how important it is for the home stadium to feel like a cauldron in these games maybe more than any other. Quite. Let's talk about some of the people who played in the game.

I'm going to start with Miles Lewis Skelly. It was his first North London derby at 18. Did both of you see the interview with Ian Wright? It was amazing, man. It was everything that I lived up to in my dreams. I couldn't believe it. I had to take in every moment. Full pressure, but this is what we live for. Moments like this we live for. It's a derby and we need to win and that's what we did today. I feel like a million dollars. Obviously, Wright is an icon and we love him.

and his excitement will definitely transmit, especially to a young kid who would have grown up watching him.

Although he might actually have grown up after. No, no, no. I know he would have seen old films of him, you know. Watching him on Match of the Day doing punditry, maybe. Yeah. It's true. He is 18. Tell you what, before we talk about him, David Rea had this to say about Myles Lewis Skelly's performance. He doesn't look 18. He doesn't feel 18 because the character that he has on the pitch, I think he showed today, is not an easy fixture to play.

especially at such a young age and the character that he showed, the balls that he played, the drive, everything that he's done is magnificent. So good to have him on board. I mean, yeah, that's what David Reyes said, James. The strength is physical strength, but also a strength of character as well. You know, we're nervous enough turning up for these games, but he's 18. It's his first North London derby.

It's a particular moment for this team, having lost the two cup games in which he played. And then suddenly he's playing in a North London derby and he's up against some good players in Koulis FC and then Brendan Johnson in the second half. And he was, I would say, our best player on the pitch. Certainly one of the top two or three. I mean...

There's not really enough praise for the kid. No. Remarkable, really, the level of maturity he showed. I think only Cesc Fabregas has started a North London derby at a younger age. It's everything about him. I remember Jamie Carragher when Arsenal played Liverpool and he played in that game. I think it was that fixture anyway, saying he doesn't look like an 18-year-old. And that's so true in terms of his body, the way he's filled out, the strength that he has, but also his...

The way he acts on the pitch, there is such a maturity. He's like a leader out there. The way he engages and talks to other players. I could see him bossing Gabriel around, talking with Trossard, telling Declan Rice where he wants him. You don't see that really from a teenager very often. He's been a leader in academy teams in the past and he's already looking like a figure who could be a leader in this Arsenal first team moving forward.

Declan Rice said a few weeks ago that he looks like he was built in a laboratory. And I know what he means because he feels Premier League ready in every respect. But the wonderful thing for us, of course, is that he wasn't built in a laboratory. He was built in the Arsenal Academy. And what a testament it is after a few years where there's been a lot of debate about, you know, are enough players getting chances? Are enough players coming through?

This season, we've had two really excellent talents in Ethan Ranieri and Myles Lewis-Skelly who've kind of made the step up. And it's fantastic because they know what this derby means, I think, as well as anybody.

Yeah, yeah. And that was the thing about that interview. Obviously, he's an Arsenal fan just like the rest of us. And I love to see that. Oh, the tackle he did on Sarr. I mean, it was a proper old school North London derby tackle, but he kept his feet on the ground. It was obviously fair. And Sarr is left lying there.

Was it Sarr? It was Sarr, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, it was. And then he starts the attack. I mean, that sort of stuff in a North London derby is what gets the crowd going. And the thing about it is that's not the only time he did it. In the second half with Kulizevski as well. Chasing him back and winning that ball. It was honestly ridiculous considering his age. And I think what really is impressive to me is

he showed his personality in that interview with Ian Wright as well. I think a lot of times when players are that young, they can maybe be a bit shy, but you saw how bubbly he is. Whenever you talk to Mikel Arteta or Per Mertesacker about him, or anyone else for that matter, they mention how big a personality he is. And I think everyone's seen that in his performances over weeks and weeks and weeks, but it was nice to actually see that with his actual personality

in that interview clip with Ian Wright. So honestly, it was for me, he was my man of the match. I know everyone else has their own opinions. I think Amy said Rice instead. I seen the doc. Someone said Gabrielle, but for me, I just thought what he did at that age was,

And the maturity showed, as James said, was just truly ridiculous. And I hope we should be seeing a lot more of him maybe in midfield from not this year, but maybe next year. Yeah, I mean, he's one of those guys. I mean, he obviously started midfield and you can see how he is on the ball, the confidence he had. Rio Ferdinand, Nelly McCoy on...

TNT said that Gabriel was man of the match. An outstanding goal-saving tackle in the first half, even though they scored a couple of minutes later from, I think, the second corner after that. More blocks than anyone on the end of another corner. I mean...

I mean, listen, he didn't score last night. It was an own goal, right? But what is he, second top scorer? Not in my books. No, no, no, not in anyone's books, to be honest with you. That run that he makes, and I love how powerful he is, and he's got on the end of a few like that. And Dragasin's the latest one who's just standing there trying to stop him. I mean, I don't know, it's like a truck coming through.

He is an out. I mean, you know, we talked a lot about William Saliba and I thought he had a good game last night again, Willie, although I thought he could have been quicker out to Son for their goal. But Gabriel has been outstanding for us in the last season off and the goal threat and the blocking and also the connection with the fans as well. The guy's a gooner, right?

Yeah, I mean, you saw it right at the end of the game when he celebrated ushering the ball out. I think everyone in the stadium probably was feeling the same way, but he'd had to hold it in for about 80 minutes. And then that was the moment where he got to release...

all that emotion. And I think just on his runs for, for those goals, I think such an underrated aspect of those runs is the little darts and double movements he makes at the start because he completely sent Dragos in at the start of that run. And that's not the first time he's done that either. So yeah, I'm massive Gabrielle guy.

James knows that as well, I think, from the conversations we've had. And I'm so glad that he's been able to really cement himself as a proper Arsenal centre-back in recent seasons. And I think it's been longer than two seasons that he's been unbelievable. I'd say he's been close to three or four, but that's just my opinion. That's all right. And you are entitled to it, Art. James, I mean...

Well, I grew up with 1-0 at the Arsenal and Tony Adams and Steve Bould. And he's in that mould, isn't he? It's just they will not pass. Yeah, and I think he's an emotional player. And sometimes that emotion, I think in the past, if you go back two or three years, would sometimes get the better of him. I can think of games where he boiled over or he made a silly mistake. Got sent off against City, didn't he? Yeah, that's often an example that gets cited.

I think what he's done really well over the last two or three years is learn to sort of channel that in a really positive way. And last night was a great example of it. I mean, he was a leader too in his own way and, you know, obviously incredibly important on the goal, but...

bossed Solanke when he needed to, physical, demanding of his players, demanding of the crowd. I loved his performance. It was a rugged performance. I've got to give a shout out as well just to a moment in the game that I particularly loved. You know, I mentioned Gabriel's movement, leaving a Spurs defender, Dragosin, for dead. I've got to shout out Leandro Trossard for nearly killing somebody with a drag back.

Pedro Parra. Absolutely extraordinary. Pedro Parra. Yeah, well, I mean, to the point where the referee actually stopped the game. He's already dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on, mate. He's lying there. He's not going anywhere. And it's not a head injury. We know that. Obviously, mentally, he would have been a bit scrambled by what Trossard did to him. Yeah, it was a great moment. James, I'll ask you about Detlef Reiss.

You know, great delivery for Arsenal's first goal. I mean, you know, consistently good, his set pieces. I mean, I was watching him run the last 15 minutes. I mean, he looked like I would look, to be honest with you, the way he was trudging about. But his desire, his... Well, desire is the word, isn't it, really? I mean, I love him. And obviously...

When he arrived that first season, we all thought, oh my God. And obviously there's been a few issues with him positionally. Where's his best? Where does he play best? Who does he play best with? No one can doubt his commitment. Yeah, it's interesting because there might be debate over how you use him.

But I don't think there's ever even the tiniest bit of debate about his place in the team. He's one of the first names on the team sheet every week. And I think he will be as long as he's at the club. There was a brilliant moment I loved, maybe because it was just in the corner in front of me, where I was stood in the north bank, where a ball was played into the corner. I think Son went after it and Rice went chasing back and sort of gave it a little body swerve and took it away from him. And it was so classy. I think everything he does...

has a real class to it. You know, whether it's playing in holding midfield, number eight, I'm sure he'd be the same if you put him in at centre half. He's just a top quality player. And maybe this season, his form has not been what it was last season. He said it himself. He said it. He got a bit knackered in the Euros and he doesn't feel like he'd been quite, but he feels like the last few weeks he's been coming back to his... And what I would say is even when he's not at the top of his game...

He never dips below a certain level. Never hides. Yeah. Never hides. The character is there. And yeah, I thought he was excellent last night as well. It's a good sign, isn't it? When you've got several names that I think we could all debate them for man of the match. I'd have to go with Lewis Skelly personally. I just think what he produced at that age, you know, in that context, I thought was just astonishing.

Do they do that? They do that sometimes in Man of the Match, don't they? They contextualise it. So they did it. I remember Ali McCoy giving it to Tottenham's new goalkeeper a couple of weeks ago when they played against Liverpool because it was his first game. No, no, not the one that played last night. The other one who'd been in reserve for about 10 years and it was his first ever game and he did really well.

And I understand why you are contextualising it. Miles Lewis-Skelly is certainly close, but Gabriel for me was just... He was immense. And he's the centre of our defence. Martin Erdegaard played very well yesterday. Missed an unbelievable chance at the end. And we'll get on to the misses in a bit. But he has created 14 chances across his last two appearances for the Arsenal. 10 against Man Utd and 4 against Tottenham. That is...

as many as all of his teammates combined over those two matches. I wouldn't say he's back to his best, but he's still such an essential part of our team, isn't he, really? Definitely. What I was impressed with yesterday was that most... So most of the chances against Manchester United were crosses. And it's kind of like, OK, the chances are great, but that's not the type of chances I want Martin Odegaard to create. I'd rather him...

play passes through the lines into the final third into the box and that's what he was doing yesterday even before his assist for Trossard he was playing some nice balls into Sterling who I'm sure we'll talk about in a bit but what I was probably most encouraged by was his assist was just one touch and

He didn't wait and kind of dwell on the ball. He saw the space and he played the ball into it. And that's what Arsenal have been missing in recent weeks, not just from him, but from everyone. Just seeing a space and attacking it, whether it's with a driving run or just a simple pass like his one for Trossard. So that was what really impressed me. But as you say, I think in front of goal,

probably needs to be a bit quicker with his decisions but I'm sure that will come as his form continues to kind of improve yeah come see us go come see us go you and me come see

So it's a new year and you're thinking, how am I going to make this year different? How am I going to build something for myself? I'm dying to be my own boss or see if I can turn this business idea that I've been kicking around into a reality, but I don't know how to make it happen. Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. And let me tell you how the best time to start your new business right now. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and get your first sale, get your store up and running easily,

with thousands of customizable templates, no coding or design skills required. All you need to do is drag and drop. Shopify makes it easy to manage your growing business. They help with the details like shipping, taxes, and payments from one single dashboard, allowing you to focus on the important stuff, like growing your business. What happens if you don't act now? Will you regret it? What if someone beats you to the idea? Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you didn't do anything now.

Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash theathletic, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash theathletic to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com slash theathletic.

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All right. Well, let's talk then about the forward line. I mean, in the end, we've got four. We've got a choice of four, haven't we? Three from four. It's Sterling, Havertz, Martinelli and Trossard. He started with Raheem Sterling on the right. James, I'm going to mention this to you.

All the times that Raheem Sterling was getting the ball, and he obviously had to come back inside because Jed Spence is quick as well, right? And you knew that he wasn't getting past Jed Spence that much. I was so missing Ben White at that point. I mean, I don't think it gets talked about enough, to be honest with you. You know, Bukayo Saka obviously is brilliant and can take people on and go either way. But when he had Ben White bombing up outside him, I mean, it just makes it almost impossible for a defence. Raheem Sterling had no help

there last night. And so is there some mitigation perhaps? Maybe. I mean, I think it's a good point on missing Ben White, certainly. You know, I think because Julian Timber is such a good player and has largely done so well,

Sometimes we do forget how important Ben White has been and certainly that relationship with Bukayo and with Martin too. It's not a slight in any way on Juri and Timberland. It's been excellent and I really like him, but it was just watching Raheem Sterling and there's nothing coming up outside him. So he's either got to take him on on his own or he's got to come back inside. The crowd were getting a bit annoyed with him and I thought, you know what, it's not...

He's not playing particularly well. He's certainly not on form. My son kept looking at me and going, he's playing like he's drunk. Right?

And I thought that was a bit unfair. But I understand that there's a hesitancy about Raheem Sterling at the moment. And I don't know what will change that. Well, I found it interesting because in the cup game against United, I know the opinions were fairly mixed on his performance in that game. But I felt like he did fancy himself to be his man. I felt like he was running really directly. He was trying the dribbles.

I suppose maybe because Spence is quick and he is very physical, for whatever reason, I just think Sterling didn't fancy it to the same extent. In terms of his actual output, his execution, I do feel like over the last two or three years, it is kind of Russian roulette with Raheem. You don't really know what you're going to get. He'll play a pass into an area rather than to a man a lot of the time.

And, yeah, it wasn't a performance that made me feel particularly comforted about our attacking options right now. Let's put it like that. But I was delighted on the other side for Trossard to get his goal because if he can get back to something like full confidence, that would be a massive lift for us. Yeah. Oh, did you see that last night? It was a shot.

I don't know if you've ever heard of those. We used to do that quite a lot, right? Players would get the ball about 20 yards out and think, I'll have a pop. I'll have a pop. And that's exactly what he did. And although I think the goalkeeper probably should have saved it, it was a well-struck shot into the bottom corner. And you went, oh my God, a goal from open play and a shot, something just a little bit out of the ordinary. That's what Trossall can bring you. He is a confidence player as well, isn't he?

Yeah, and what I liked was he took it off his left foot. He didn't kind of wait to kind of take a touch and bring it back onto his right because we all know he's very two-footed. But I think we'd probably all forgotten about that because he's not really used his left foot in the same way as he did in his first, say, 18 months when he was at Arsenal. He's probably been guilty of...

when the plays got a lot slower, he probably takes a lot more time with it as well. But I think that was a demonstration of what he can do and what he had been doing before.

Yeah, in his first 18 months at Arsenal and just on Sterling as well. I think the height of Jed Spence is probably another aspect we're not looking at. When he was up against him right in front of the press box, which is the West Stand, I think you could really see it was a bit of a mismatch. So you probably were needing a bit more support. But in terms of Trossard, I think it was really good.

evening with that turn as well on Porrow I think hopefully as Amy mentioned in her kind of voice note there's a bit more enjoyment there in his football and the team's football and we mentioned of course fantastic atmosphere you'd be a bit upset if there wasn't a fantastic atmosphere for an eight o'clock kickoff in a North London derby under the lights in a packed stadium but

But singing North London forever. I mean, James, you were talking about as you came in, you could hear it going. And the thing, what I liked about it was the Tottenham, because the Tottenham players were having their huddle in front of their fans, we got to hear the whole song before the kickoff, which I think is great. I don't like it bleeding into the start of the game, but I thought it sounded great at the end and it was a good choice at the end, wasn't it? Yeah, it was bang on. And I wouldn't mind hearing that a bit more often at full time, actually. I think, I know they do it before the game, but

especially after the big wins at home is it you know it really does sound great and you know North London is Arsenal's all over again so very fitting.

And I didn't see many people leaving. No, it's true. It's nice, isn't it? I don't think they necessarily stayed for North London forever. No, no. But at the same time, you know, we talked about those cup games and I'm seeing people leaving the Newcastle game on 77 minutes and people leaving before the penalty shootout against Man Utd. You're going, no, no, no, no, come on. No, to be fair, I think the stands were still pretty full, like...

five, 10 minutes after full time, which kind of took me aback. I was like, wow, this is

Not weird, but... Tottenham at home, mate. If we beat Tottenham at home, it means so much, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think that hopefully that energy kind of goes into the weekend because you don't just want that atmosphere for Tottenham at home. I know it's a different game and the meaning was a lot different yesterday, but Aston Villa is still going to be massive as well. So you hope that kind of atmosphere flows

into the weekend and the champions of the game after that as well. They're going to need it because they are knackered. I mean, I'm knackered and I didn't play and they... But anyway, we'll talk about the Villa game after the break. This is Hand Break Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Hello, Salim!

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They get a hand break off and you can see that they are more free to play. Ian Stone, James Manicolas and Art de Rocher here on the Athletics Arsenal podcast hand break off. By the way, on the Athletic FC podcast today, general football podcast, they asked the question, are Arsenal boring? And I slightly resented it, to be honest with you. Art, you've got something to say about this?

I totally get it. 100% get it. Because I was bored the last two or three games. I was getting more and more bored. And it was mostly just because the football was so samey.

But that was totally different within one minute of yesterday's game. So I get where the questions come from, because for me personally, as a fan and both working, I was there just waiting for something to happen and nothing was happening. Thankfully, that wasn't the case yesterday.

James, I mean, I don't want to lump you in with me as one of the older football fans, but compared to Art, of course, you are nearer. Are you nearer to me? It's close, isn't it? Anyway. No comment. Actually, no, I think James might be closer to me. What it is, Ian, is the young generation, TikTok's broken their brains. That's what it is. Their attention span's gone.

So farewell to the US TikTok users. They're getting banned on Sunday. Well, we'll see. We don't know yet. There's a lot of, let's be fair, in the wider world, there's a lot of things up in the air right now. James, I mean...

what do you think of this? Look, can I just say from my point of view, I do not care if Arsenal think I'm boring. Again, I'll say this again. I said it half an hour ago. I was brought up on 1-0 to the Arsenal and also, by the way, Bertie Meese's team, the double team in 1971. Now,

not the most interesting thing to watch but we won trophies and I will I would enjoy boring the pants of every other football fan in this country if we start winning trophies I suppose that athletic pod they're asking the question sort of from a neutrals perspective right and who cares what neutrals think about anything but we don't have to care on this podcast that's for sure

I don't like the idea of a neutral in any sense. I really don't. It's like a sort of, you know, it's Switzerland. You know, what is the point? Hello. Hello to our Swiss fans. Yeah, exactly. Look forward to the live pod in Geneva. Yeah, I see where both of you are coming from, to be honest. And guess what? I'm going to sit on the fence. I think that there's...

I don't think Arsenal's style is the most exhilarating in the Premier League. And I think that when you don't win, sometimes, given that there is a generation of fans who sort of were brought up on Arsene Wenger's kind of ideals about football, and that's kind of all they've ever known. I think that win or lose, that's always been something that a lot of Arsenal fans have sort of taken pride in and almost been a kind of...

a moral high ground footballistically, if you will. Whereas now we are a team who play the margins and, you know, look to score on set pieces and, you know, hold our defensive position. And we do, we do everything. We do a bit of everything now. We're like, speaking of Switzerland, we're like a Swiss army knife football team. But I can see that it's kind of a far cry from the Arsenal people knew for 20 years under Wenger. But,

This team's also got a better chance of winning the league than pretty much every team in the second half of Arsene Wenger's reign. So I understand the debate. I don't think anyone could say that last night was boring in any way. Like a lot of North London derbies, it was a pulsating, dramatic game. And like you, I'm still recovering from it. To James's point, I think, again, we've spoken about this at length, and it's almost like

you're having an identity crisis, like in real time. That's what last week felt like to me anyway, because the football was so different to what we spoke about, what a lot of people have grown up on. And then obviously for the past couple of seasons, it's mostly resolved in wins. But to get those two back-to-back defeats in that manner, it just felt like playing that way. I just was getting so frustrated, but thankfully, yeah,

Right. I just want to win.

to be honest with you. And that is really fair, yeah. I mean, I really do. And, you know, you want entertainment, what did some manager say years ago? You want entertainment, go to the circus or something like that. Or come to one of my gigs on my website if you want to. Anyway, I won't do that. Martin Zubimendi, James...

Do you know a huge amount? I mean, it's a Real Sociedad thing. We've got a very, very, very good relationship with them. We signed Mikel Mourinho. I mean, I saw a few people moaning, oh, not another defensive midfielder. But this guy is very sought after. Liverpool thought they had him last year, but now apparently we've got some agreement, have we not? I don't know about agreement, but I think Arsenal are in a pretty strong position on it.

I wouldn't say it's done. And I think I'm reminded a little bit of Declan Rice's situation a couple of years ago, where around this time, actually, in the year, you know, there was we reported and other people reported saying, you know, Arsenal were working on a deal to sign Declan Rice and he's there, his preferred club. It didn't stop a pretty nervy few weeks in the summer when we thought Man City were going to come in and pinch him off us. So, you know, nothing's done till it's done.

But he's a really good player. He's a really good player. And people I know who've watched more of him than me think this is an excellent signing for Arsenal. Bear in mind Thomas Partey's contract expires at the end of this season. Jorginho's contract as well. Undoubtedly, that's an area of the squad that's going to need strengthening. And Zubamendi seems like he'd be a really good fit. The only thing slightly...

sort of intriguing about it to my mind and Jordan Campbell wrote a piece about this for us is sort of what it means for Declan Rice and the composition of the midfield because I know some fans would probably say well look you know we spent a hundred million pound on Declan Rice and he could play at the base and you could bring in a more creative midfield player and does signing Zubimendi mean actually we're going to see Rice in a slightly more advanced role so I'm intrigued to see how that all plays out if and when he arrives yeah oh

I mean, in the end, when we're talking about transfers, it was a strange moment, wasn't it, in midweek? Because this is after we've basically missed so many chances and not scored for a couple of games or scored one against Man Utd and none against Newcastle. And everyone's going, we need a striker. And we talk about a defensive midfielder, although I say he's a very, very talented boy.

I mean, is there anything moving further forward?

Since we last been on this podcast, of course, we know that Gabriel Jesus has got an ACL and is out for the season. And we do wish him all the best. It's terribly sad for him. But, you know, we needed a striker before he went out. Now we've got four fit players up front. And one of them is Raheem Sterling, by the way. And so we have to be looking for a striker first, don't we? Yeah, I think in his, I'm not sure if his press conference or post-match, Mikel Arteta did speak about

them looking in the attacking areas. And I think even pre-match, he was kind of beating that drum of, well, we're not just going to be looking from the minute someone gets injured. That work's already going to have been done. So he can't just kind of come out and say, yeah, we're going for X, Y, and Zed.

And then obviously all the fans are going to be happy, but then he's just given away their game plan. So that's not going to happen. But for me, looking at it from a kind of personal perspective, I think that kind of whole striker debate is much deeper than just one position. And it always has been. When you're looking at how Arsenal play,

And again, I was thinking about this a lot in the past couple of weeks. It's not all down to what's happening in that box. So much can be improved around that, I think, in not becoming too samey and stagnant in the way you build up, the way you play. I think there's a lot of different ways this football club can play and Zubimendi probably helps that a lot. With Rice, I think it would be interesting to,

if they can play maybe as a two and then that may, that might free up Martin Erdegaard a little bit more. I don't think people have really thought about that as much as just the six, eight question with Rice, because that's been the question since he arrived really. But yeah, I think he can take Arsenal a few different directions and,

And again, where does Marzullo Scully fit into that too? I think that's a question that still needs to be asked because he's a midfielder. Yes, he is. You certainly see from his touch how good he is. James, is there any news, anything you may have heard? You got your finger on the pulse? No, nothing really? Not much at the time being. I mean, I think...

I think prior to that Jesus injury, I think Arsenal probably would have kept their powder dry for the summer. But since that, I think they sense, and you can tell from the way Arteta's talking, they know they kind of need to do something. I, you know, personally,

I would be going after Benjamin Sassico. I think they wanted that player in the summer. The likelihood is they'll want him next summer if they have to pay a bit more, but it means they can get him out in January. I don't think it's an easy deal to do by any means. Leipzig are fourth in the league, struggling in the Champions League. If they sold their best player, their star striker, they might have a revolt on their hands from the supporters. But

I don't know. If he's the guy, do everything you can to make it happen in January. He's a guy who solves the short-term need of needing an extra attacker, needing an extra body, but he also fits the kind of long-term recruitment strategy. So that would be top of my wish list. Yeah. Okay. Watch this space, I think is what we're going to say. What are we on now? January the 16th, two weeks to go.

Villa at the Emirates on Saturday night. Another massive game. They did a double over us last year, didn't they? But we had a very, very good result at their place. Probably could have gone either way. James, I mean, we've got 14, 15 fit players. It's going to be not that different from last night, isn't it?

Yeah, it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough. When I looked at this week, I mean, you won't be surprised to hear I fancied our chances against Spurs. You know, we know what they're like. But also stylistically, I thought they were a pretty good fit for us. I always looked at this Villa game, particularly off the back of what was almost certainly going to be a draining North London derby as really tough.

They're a good side, got a decent result at Goodison Park, didn't they? 1-0 win up there. They've got great goal scorers as well. I remember the game at Villa Park, Morgan Rodgers ran us absolutely ragged, didn't he? I mean, he was really good that day. He's a player I also really, really like. So I think this is going to be a big test and a big test of that group. You know, they brought Trossard off.

Yesterday, relatively early, he looked tired by that point. Kai Havertz, I mean, he's playing a lot of minutes, huge. Running himself into the ground as well. He did a lot of pressing last night, Kai Havertz. And by the way, he did really well a couple of times, closed the goalkeeper down, almost got something out of it. But it takes an out of you, doesn't it, all this? It does. And that was probably the only thing missing from the night, actually, was a Kai Havertz goal. I think that would have absolutely taken the roof off the place, given the week that he's had.

Maybe it'll come against Aston Villa at the weekend. Save it for Saturday. I think in the, something we've not really talked about is the context of the title race. You know, Liverpool dropped points against Forest, didn't they, the night before. They could have nicked it. I mean, they had a lot of chances. It shows it's not only Arsenal sometimes who have a load of chances and don't necessarily get the goals. But Sales was brilliant for Forest and this has enabled us, I think,

really, it feels like the first time this season, but I'm sure I'll be corrected by Art, no doubt if I'm wrong, but where there's been a weekend or a midweek where they've slipped up and we've actually managed to claw some ground back. We've actually managed to close the gap. I think given that, we've got to try and keep the momentum up at the weekend because Liverpool got more hard games to come. You know, they've got trips to

Bournemouth and emergency derby the last one at Goodison Park they got Brentford at the weekend haven't they they got Brentford away at the weekend which is you know it's never a walk in the park you know they had a great comeback against Man City so yeah

It's there. It's there. I'm not saying it's on, but I'm saying it's there. It was not James who said it. I mean, before we go, right, it is on, isn't it? I mean, it's on. I mean, it's ridiculous. Of course, it's ridiculous with the injuries we got and the players we got out. But the boys believe it, don't they? They wouldn't have played with such desire, such heart.

such commitment last night to win that game. Obviously, they know it's a North London derby, but they've been there before. Let's not forget, right? This is the team that's gone close for the last two years and they have that desire to get over the line. And there's something about the team being forged in the fire of adversity. And we've had a lot of that this year. And you sort of feel like if they can hang in there and get Bukayo back come April...

And obviously we've still got to go to Anfield and win. There's a lot of things that need to go right for us, you know, but at the same time, four points behind with a game in hand is not insurmountable. Yeah, and even before the North London derby, obviously James, myself, Amy and Jordan did this big read that went out the morning of. And within that, I think the first thing I pinpointed in my section was,

after 20 games last season, Arsenal had 40 points. It feels different. It was exactly the same points tally, but it does feel different. And I think the reason for that was the amount of draws this year. It's kind of really stopped them building momentum properly. And,

But within that, I think even after the game last night, David Raya spoke about how three weeks ago everyone would have felt Liverpool will run away with it. And last night reminded me of the Liverpool game last year at home. That felt like a real make or break. And now it's in February. I think Arsenal were maybe...

five maybe seven points off Liverpool at that point and ended up finishing way above them obviously it's a different Liverpool this year but that squad has the example of last year to look at as I guess motivation that they can close that gap usurp that gap and then keep going till the final day which they did last year

We're doing a piece that's out on The Athletic tomorrow, so Friday, where they've asked different writers, you know, what would it take for you to believe Liverpool will be champions? At what point in the season will you say, right, it's theirs? So I was one of the contributors and I was sat down today. I was looking at Arsenal's fixture list and looking at Liverpool's. And I just kept coming back to that game at Anfield. I think it's, you know, three games from the end of the season, is it? Something like that. And I think...

I think Mikel Arteta and the squad's aim absolutely has to be, let's make that game mean something. That's the message, right? And I think Arsenal absolutely can. I think we can get to that point and still be in the race. And, you know, well, we've got some precedent for important title winning games at Anfield. We certainly do.

I feel like Amy should just jump on for five minutes and describe her evening for the 50th time on this podcast. But that's all right. I love listening to it. Let's have a song to finish. Art, what have you got for us? This might be a bit of a throwback to the people who were at the live show in September. A song by Melly Mike.

I know you're all over. Nearly Mike. He's coming around later. He's been around for a bit. He's played me his latest, to drop his latest tune on the floor and then we'll pick it up and listen to it. What is it? It's called Young, Black and Rich and it's dedicated to Miles Lewis Skelly.

Who described himself feeling as a million dollars. He did. He did. It was so old school. A million dollars. It's so little money now in all sorts of ways. Not quite a million pounds. Not quite a million pounds. No, no, no, no. But when you think about Elon Musk and the rest of them and how much money they've got, a million dollars.

He's humble. He's a humble guy. He's a humble guy and let him stay humble. It's weird. I was actually thinking about him on the train home and thinking if I ran into him, I would say to him, honestly, Miles, just play your football and live like a monk for the next 17, 18 years. But honestly, look at me. I go clubbing. I'm almost 62. You can have a lot of fun in your 30s and 40s and 50s. That is what I would say. Anyway, Melly Mike, was it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Young, gifted. Black and red. Oh, bless him. Bless him. Wow. What a player. James, what about you? I picked a Pink Floyd track called Coming Back to Life. Because, you know, I think that's what happened a little bit last night, maybe to our season. I really feared at 1-0 down, you know, we were flatlining. So,

Bit of life back in there. And I think now what this squad needs, having sort of achieved that foothold in the campaign, they need that addition via the transfer market. I think they deserve it. And I think, you know, we've got an opportunity, as just discussed. As gutted as I am to be out of those cups, and I honestly am, you look at what it does to our fixture list, you look at what it does to our opportunity to rest players.

to maybe get away to Dubai, the magic of Dubai. There is an opportunity. Let's not let it pass us by. Let's do everything we can to strengthen this group. We don't want to put too much on Dubai, do we? I mean, nice as it is for a couple of days away, you know. To be fair, I looked at a couple of the other times Arsenal went to Dubai recently and they were after 0-0 draws to Burnley.

And after both of those trips, they won those games as well. I'm telling you, we've all got to go to Dubai. All of us. I think the other fans as well. Just a little restorative two, three day break. I've gone, I chose Freed From Desire.

By the way, I didn't even know it was by Gala Rizzotto. I had no idea who that is, to be honest with you. If it's not Melly Mike, I'm not in the least bit interested. But Freed From Desire, because they played it yesterday and the whole crowd were up. And like you say, most of them were still there and I'm watching Gabriel dancing and chucking his shirt in and I felt great last night. So that's my choice. That's it.

for this happy edition of Handbrake Off. Thanks to Art de Rocher. Thanks to James McNicholas and thanks to Abby, our producer. And enjoy the rest of your week. We'll speak to you after Saturday.

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