The World Cup of underrated Arsenal players
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The only way to score is, of course, to play with a handbrake off. Hello, I'm Ian Stone. This is Handbrake Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. We're recording something a little bit different today. We are all together in a pub.

We're in a pub everyone for a special episode to Highbury Barn. Thank you for hosting us for a special episode where we'll be trying to decide on Arsenal's all-time most underrated player in knockout tournament style. I'm here with James McNicholas, Adrian Clarke and Amy Lawrence. Hello. Hello mate. Hello. Any excuse for a beer? Any excuse for a beer? Except Amy seems to be drinking what is elderflower juice but tastes like gin and tonic.

Yeah, it's quite a bizarre drink. All right, fair enough. Anyway, do come to the Hybride Bar and it's a lovely pub. Honestly, if people are not asking for that... I've been coming for years. Elder Flammertonic. Yeah, I know. You actually threw me under a bus. Football has... Football has changed. All right, well, by the way, Art is not here today because it's his birthday. That is... It's a weird reason not to be somewhere. What's he doing? He's sleeping. Sleeping.

He's got the day off, yeah. I imagine he'll be sleeping and then I imagine he'll be playing video games. That would be my guess. By the way, that's the mean streets of Highbury just there, just to give you an idea of how dangerous it is where we are. He's going to be playing video games, of course he is, and listening to artists I've never heard of.

which is fair enough. He didn't want to come. Is that what it is on his birthday? We were wondering about whether you've been ever made to do anything on your birthday. Adrian, have you been made to do anything on your birthday? It took me to see The Piano. Have you ever seen that film? Oh my God, two hours of my life I'm never getting back.

I mean, it was really awful. Was it bad? It was terrible. Yeah. The English Patient, did you ever see that? It won the Oscar. And I remember getting drawn in, oh, I've got to see this. The reviews are amazing. And it's so boring. The most boring film I've ever seen in my life. Are we allowed to say middle class? Yeah.

I've worked on my birthday, but I like my work. So it's all right. It's not the same. Amy, what about you? Ever been made to do anything? You're not made to do anything. It's hard to get you to do stuff even when you want to do it. Thank you very much.

Can't argue with that. I've got a real midsummer birthday, so it's not that often that I've been made to do anything or can get anyone to do anything. So, no, going to have to pass on this one, I'm afraid. I have had birthdays spoiled by, like, children having monumental rows and stuff like that. Right. You know, it's like, be good for your mum's birthday. F***.

I don't know if that counts. As a child, if I was said, be good for your mother's birthday, I think that would have gone the opposite way. Well, that's kind of what happened. Yeah, fair. I've got to be honest. I'm with the kids on that one. James, I mean, it was your birthday. We're recording this on Friday. Yeah. It was your birthday Monday. I know. Yes. Incredible. 68. You're doing very well. What did you get? What did I get? Yeah.

Not a lot. Not a lot because I can't even think. It was Father's Day Sunday and my birthday Monday and I was like this is going to be an absolute bonanza. Two days of celebration. To be honest I felt a bit short changed. I was like from that 48 hours I didn't come away with enough goodies. I am being taken out for dinner tonight so ask me tomorrow.

You know, my birthday present is, but I'm going out for dinner tonight. I don't know where. Oh, right. Nice. A mystery dinner. It's all in the balance, really, you know, to be determined. This year could go either way. It could go either way. Okay, fair enough. Also, by the way, before we start talking about this, apparently Zubin Mendy... Yeah, but I've just seen him. What?

I've just seen him walking down the road. Just jumped off the number four. Yeah. No, he is in London. Weird he's not turned up to this, to be honest. Do you know what I mean? If he's here. Ladies and gentlemen, I've got a surprise for you. The unveiling is in the Ivory Barn during the Handbrake podcast. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit ridiculous, all this, James, isn't it? I mean, it's going on a bit, but we're confident.

Yeah, we're confident, we're progressing, we're advancing. All of the above. Yeah, all right. All right, fair enough. Close. Finalising. But may I say that, you know, talking of unveilings, today is the 30th anniversary of the unveiling of one Dennis Bergkamp. And I was fortunate stroke hysterical enough, I don't know, maybe that's the wrong word, to be at that unveiling.

And it was, it felt like life changed forever. You know, it's hard to, in today's world when it's not uncommon for, you know, global superstars to turn up in the Premier League. This was not something that happened very often 30 years ago. And I really distinctly remember the feeling of sitting in the little press room, you know, just up the stairs from the marble halls as you came in.

And he walks in and sits down with the gun just behind him at the table. And being absolutely frozen like I was in an alternative universe. I could not believe my eyes. And the other thing that I really remember is that they played...

a little compilation of it. It's like, here's some of Dennis Bergkamp's best bits. And back then it was pretty rudimentary stuff. You know, you weren't used to seeing a lot of highlights of anyone. There was obviously no YouTube compilations and stuff like that. And they, they, they put, you know, it was really advanced at the time. They put together a few goals and moves and stuff to the tune of the Stone Roses. This is the one. And Dennis just cocked his head because it was behind him, this screen.

And was watching it with a kind of mixture of that confidence that he has, but that also, that reserve. So he was slightly embarrassed about it, but also he kind of knew he was brilliant. It was really interesting. And I was just watching this whole thing thinking, this is like an out-of-body experience. Dennis Bergkamp signing for Arsenal. How on earth? Anyway, so that's a nice memory. So, Zubi Mendy, man. I hope you're feeling good. No, but we're talking about...

Almost, we're talking about the birth of modern Arsenal here, aren't we? Dennis Bergkamp signing. The first book in the wall. I wasn't at the unveiling, but I was at his first training session. All right, put me in place, please. Don't want to talk Trump anymore. LAUGHTER

I'm still dining out on the fact that he was my teammate. I played with him. So, yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, loved it. Now, it's time for the Arsenal Football Club World Cup. And this is a World Cup of underrated players, right? All of us have given Producer Jay names of the Arsenal players we believe to be the most underrated. And we're going to draw them out of a hat in a knockout competition style. We have a hat here that was donated by James. Yeah, it's my son's hat.

It's a sort of... I don't know, how would you describe it? Bucket hat. Bucket hat. It's a bucket hat. Yeah, it fooled me by being upside down.

It's more of a bowl hat. It's your hat. You bought the hat. It's a bucket. It's an upside down bucket hat. He'd wear it at the Isle of Wight Festival, wouldn't he? This weekend, you know, or last weekend. Anyway, basically, all the names are in a hat. We're going to draw them out and the players will go up against each other head to head until we hopefully end up with our all-time most underrated players. We only know which players we have submitted individually. And I've got to be honest, I can't remember which ones I did because it was about four weeks ago. But at some point, they'll come out and go...

Oh, yeah, him. So the rest will come out as a surprise. We draw them out of the hat in a tournament style, in true Gianni Infantino style. I like this, Jay. Jay wrote this, I will say. We've made this tournament as ludicrous as possible. All right. We're starting with 17 players. So one will be knocked out immediately. So somebody will draw the names. Jay, you're going to draw the names, aren't you? Oh, the Ox.

Ah, yes. That's a good one. The Ox. These are the players. Steve Williams. That's an interesting call as well. Santi Cazorla. Who has... Oh, you know what? We're not getting into it yet. Sylvain Wiltord. Sylvain Wiltord. That's a good one. We've got Alan Smith. Smudger there.

Underrated. Olivier Giroud. That's a good draw as well. I like that. Good tie there. That's a good tie. That's one for TV. Matthew Flamini. Okay. Gilberto Silva. That's another quite interesting combo. Well, I think hopefully they're all interesting. Otherwise, it won't be a very good podcast. Emmanuel Adebayor. Wow. Oh, yeah. We've got things to say about him. Thomas Vermaelen.

Yeah. These are the pairs, by the way, we're talking about. Brian Marwood. Wow. Retro. Anders Limpa. Good. That's good. That's good. Yeah. And we can't believe that one, but we'll get to it. Theo Walcott. Yeah. Yes. Paul Merson. Underrated. Paul Merson. Okay. Bakari Sanya. Lauren. And the final name is Alexis Sanchez. Right. Incredible that...

Sanya's come out against Lauren Smith has come out against Giroud Flamini against Gilberto Silva

There's some great draws in there. It's a fix. There are some great draws in there. Who's getting biffed? Or do we think Alexis doesn't belong in there? Well, we've got to get... This is the point, isn't it? Because we've got to get rid of one name who we think is either so terrible that he's not underrated or he's too good to be underrated. Or he's too rated. Too rated. Well, I've got to say, I put Alexis Sanchez in there because I think he is much, much better than he's remembered for among Arsenal supporters. Yeah.

in my opinion. What he brought to the team was special at the time, but I don't know if everybody appreciates it now. I think he's still my son's favourite player. So I think he's rated quite highly in our house. It's hard, isn't it? Because underrated, I mean, it's all relative, isn't it? You know, you could be an average player with a lot of positive perception, but, you know, it's not necessarily about your ability. It's about how you're perceived. I guess among the Arsenal fans, right? That's what we're saying.

Yes, I would say so. It is about how you're perceived. And I cannot believe that Alexis Sanchez is even on the table. I'm looking at him. I mean, I'll be honest with you. Not a name I expected. And we were on the podcast the other day talking about how I would love to see him in the team now. I think it would be absolutely magnificent. No, absolutely. I rate him, which is why I put him in there. I just don't think that he is as rated among certain sections of the support as he should be.

That is, for me, the ultimate underrated player. That is underrated. This is the name that stands out to me. Yeah, I agree. I think Thomas Varlan maybe falls into the overrated category. I feel the same, actually. I feel like...

He came in, he scored a few goals and people thought, we've got something really special here. But I don't think he ever really delivered. May I make a proposition? A lot of injuries. I think that both those points are absolutely right. So it's basically a playoff between Alexis Sanchez and Vermaelen to get that last spot in the last 16. All right, votes. For me, I'd kick out Vermaelen. I think that...

On the sort of, what's it called, on the sort of sliding scale, I think he almost sits in overrated for me rather than underrated. I agree with you. It's three yeses. Well then, okay, I'll go along with that. So Alexis goes in. Alexis goes up against Adebayor and then we can start with the... And goodbye Thomas van Marlen. You are...

That was one of ours. Happy birthday, Art. Happy birthday, Art. And he spent a long time thinking about it as well, didn't he? Well, thanks for that, Art. Cheers. You probably should have spent a bit longer, mate. Anyway, all right. He was in nappies when Vermaelen was playing. He doesn't remember. All right. Well, I tell you what, then. We have to choose a pairing, shall we? Jay, why don't you choose a pairing for us to start talking about?

Well, while we're here, we're talking about Alexis against Adebayor. Who is more underrated? Adrian, was Emmanuel Adebayor underrated? I mean, he's a wonderful footballer. I remember that finish against Tottenham when it was chipped into him. Yeah. And he just chested it. Oh, and there was one against Newcastle as well. Wonderful footballer. And is there also a bit of an emotional thing with Arsenal fans because of what happened to him and the celebration? Of course. I think because of the way that he left,

the club that he joined and clearly the celebration that he partook in against us. There's a feeling that we have to hate Adebayor and that he was never any good anyway. And that isn't true. He was a really good player for us. He was dangerous. He scored great goals. Unexpectedly good goals, didn't he? He was capable of scoring goals that maybe your bog standard number nine wouldn't score. He's a brilliant footballer. He was a brilliant footballer, but...

I don't know. I'm not inclined to put him through here because I don't really like him. LAUGHTER

Which is a perfectly valid reason. And for the reasons I said earlier, I think Alexis Sanchez is not, should be held in very high esteem among supporters. But I think if fans would, you would ask them their top five favourite Arsenal players, I don't think he'd get in that many people's. Both these players suffer from the same thing, don't they? In that they left the club in a way that wasn't particularly popular. They joined a rival and I think it damaged their standing with the supporters. Yeah.

I think... I think I would probably... It's a difficult one. I think probably Alexis... My perception is that he is rated pretty highly. So I would probably err towards Adebayor. Because I think Adebayor was a really good striker and maybe doesn't quite get the respect that he deserves. Whereas I think Alexis...

I take Adrian's point. If you really think he's the best of the best of the best, maybe he doesn't quite get held up in that esteem as like an Arsenal legend. And talent-wise, he did deserve that. Oh, it's a difficult one, actually. I'm talking myself round. It is quite difficult. And I'm hearing what you're saying about Alexis...

I mean, also with Alexis, by the way, when he left, he went to Manchester United, right? Yeah. And then within about six weeks, he wanted to come back. He did, yeah. Whereas Emmanuel Adebayor never did. Never did, because he got so much abuse. But I think out of the two of them, Adebayor is more underrated than Alexis Sanchez. Amy, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I felt a lot of surprise by Alexis being in the conversation, simply because...

I rate him pretty highly and most people I know seem to as well. And I think he's quite well loved despite the fact he went to Man United. I don't think that's what most people remember. I'm sticking to McGunt, but I'm going to lose here. I'll say Alexis. Amy.

I'm going to have to go Adebayor. Adebayor for me. Adebayor for me. Adebayor. Alexis is gone. He should take that as a compliment. He's got a lot of airtime, though, to be fair. Do you know what I mean? He's done all right. Emmanuel Adebayor is through. Next up, Battle of the Fullbacks. Bakary Sanja against Lauren. Woof. I have a clear perspective on this one, actually. I think Sanja is underrated. I think because he never won a league title. I think Sanja is a better player than Lauren. I do think that.

I think he could have played in the Invincibles easily. And I think if he'd been part of a title winning team, he might be remembered as, you know, one of Arsenal's very best defenders. I think he was that good. So I can't remember. Maybe I put Sanya in, but I do think he's an underrated player. And Lauren is a great player. No arguments from me on that. But I think his standing obviously has benefited from the trophies and the teams he was part of. Sanya played in some quite...

average teams and I thought was exceptional. Lauren used to I mean Lauren is probably the last name out of the Invincibles that most people if they went through the team they go oh yeah he's really good which is the definition Adrian of underrated. Yeah yeah and he was supremely reliable and really he was a little bit like Miles wasn't he? I think he was more he wasn't a natural right back was he? No. In fact I think Arsene had some interesting conversations with him to convince him

He's the most underrated of the Invincibles, but I'm inclined to go with James here. I do think Sanya was a very good player in a much less good team. I would actually say there's not much between those two players, but Lauren clearly gets more love. It's mighty close for me. I can't go against Lauren. I just can't. We all talk about underrated. I know, but I think he's...

absolutely phenomenal and doesn't maybe get the love that he deserves which is a definition of underrated as well

because of the company that he keeps in that Invincibles team. That's true. So I'm sticking with my man, Lauren. Yeah, all right. I'm having Sanya. I'm having Sanya for what James said. And I used to love watching him. In fact, he used to scare the living s*** out of me watching him go up for headers with the wingers because it was right in front of where we sit. And I used to go in and I always used to worry about the beads, to be honest. Do you remember the one game where he played without them and he had a bit of a nightmare?

Honestly, he had one game where he played without the braids in. Braids? Yeah. And he had a bit of a shocker and he never played without them again, as far as I can recall. So there you go. He was like Samson, really. That was the source of his power. Yeah. Well, Bakari Sania goes through as more underrated. Okay. Gilberto Silva against Mathieu Flamini. I have an interest in this. I put Flamini in as underrated because...

I just, not the first time so much, but the second time when he came back and when he had that little partnership with, I think, Cesc and it was the two of them. And I thought, I thought Flamini did a great, great job. He looked really, really good. And I never thought he got the love. He was a really excellent holding player and someone to sit next to the more creative player. But I don't think anyone really...

I never felt like everyone else felt the same way that I did. I think he has a bit of cult hero about Flamini. I think he was undeniably the best pointer I've ever seen on a football pitch. He was absolutely outstanding in terms of organising, pointing, shouting, barking, leading. And if you ever get the opportunity to meet him or talk to him, he's an incredibly intelligent player.

who speaks with this rare passion like you better believe it. You can see how that affected the kind of player he was on the pitch. Is he going to solve the environmental crisis in the world? Well, he's certainly given it a good go. I mean, he's an unbelievable businessman. He's an incredible brain. A lot of money. We have a ruling, by the way, on Flamini Flamini. I mean, I said...

I would say Flamini. Would you? Yeah. I'd say Flamini. I think he would say Flamini. You'd say Flamini. I'd say Flamini. What are you saying? I don't know now, to be honest with you. I'm really not sure. I'm happy either way. Perhaps we should ask him. We should have some way of knowing. But can I just jump in and say, I think Gilberto, if you're going to define underrated, is really a top player.

He's probably one of the first people I would think of for that. And in that sense that he was one of those players that, you know, when people say, oh, as if there's something mystical about it, you don't really see what he does. You don't really know what he does. But a hugely brainy footballer in the way that he understood and interpreted the game. Perfect at making sure his role served the team and served those around him.

A brilliant influence. Just the nicest guy in the world. Honestly, I think everyone who knows him adores him.

And I think Flamini is a classic choice, but Gilberto is a possible winner for me, so I would have to choose him. I have to say, Adrian, as much as I chose Mathieu Flamini-Flamini, as I'm now going to call him, Gilberto Silva, he was one of those guys, what Amy was saying, we don't know what he does, nobody knows what he does. Well, what he did is he only really realised that when he wasn't in the team. That's true. When all these amazing players didn't seem to,

be connected in the same way and you're going, what's going on? Oh, Gilberto's not there. Yeah, this is a really strong last 16 clash, isn't it? Like, this could be a semi, really. This is the sort of stuff we used to get in the Champions League, right? Exactly. This is strong. Because I was fully buying into Flamini, Flamini, Flamini, and now I've changed. I've changed. What I think was underrated about him was his performance at full-back in the Champions League run where, where,

we all remember him as a tigerish midfielder, but he played at fullback and he was sensational and we didn't concede a goal on route to that Champions League final. So I think that is the definition of being underrated. For me, a little bit like you were arguing against Alexis, I feel a little bit the same with Gilberto, that people do love him and they do put him really, really high up.

But I think the issue that's in his way is Vieira. And if you're looking for an all-timer to be your big guy in the middle of the park, Patrick gets the nod every day of the week, doesn't he? Ahead of Gilberto. And that's probably a little bit harsh on him because he was a sensational player. So this is a really hard one for me. Arsene Wenger was asked who was the most underrated player he'd managed in his time at Arsenal and he picked Gilberto. And he spoke about...

when he was scouting him, playing for Brazil. And that was a team, again, full of stars, full of attacking talent. I think it was kind of the days of Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho up front. But Gilberto was the guy who helped make things tick and covered for them.

I think for that reason, who am I to argue with Arsene Wenger? I'm going to say Gilberto. I know, it's difficult. He was on McAlealy, wasn't he? I mean, that's what he did for us. He was, and obviously as an Invincible, he does get a lot of credit, but I still think in the context of that team, maybe not quite enough. Oh, what we're saying...

Adrian? Gilberto. Gilberto. Gilberto. Well, I can't go against Dalton. And I can't go against my own choice because he's up against Gilberto, criminally underrated. Gilberto Silva goes through. All right. Battle of the Wingers. Brian Marwood and Anders Limpa. Amy, I'm going to come to you first. You've got to convince me here, guys, because I don't really remember either of these players. Oh, James. I know. Sorry about that.

So you've got the challenge for you to win my vote. I basically selected these two. Okay. I think they're two outstanding shouts. Yeah, it's quite cruel that they've been paired together. But also fitting because they're left-wingers. Yeah. And I think what they both did, which I remember being a thing back in the day, was...

Whenever Arsenal had a title-winning team, they had an amazing left winger who was very productive. And that goes back to George Armstrong in 1971. And then Marwood arrived in the 88-89 team and was absolute dynamite. He got injured towards the end of the season and wasn't playing for the big one at Anfield. He was very good. But he was a machine. All he seemed to do was just get the ball, drive up that wing and...

and sending a cross that was invariably a goal and he popped up with quite a few goals himself as well and he was a the Arsenal fans absolutely fell in love with him and he was integral to that title and within two years he was gone and has arrived he came in 1990 slightly Bergkampish as I was talking about before not coming with the same reputation but

A Swedish player, a Scandinavian. I mean, he was interesting for... People didn't know much about him and he was a flair player from abroad and everyone fell in love with Anders in five seconds. And he was very different from pretty much what we'd seen. He had real twinkle toes. He was a cheeky winger. He was. He was very gifted technically. But he used to drive George Graham mad because he didn't work hard enough for George. When it came to ability, he was...

up with anything probably in the division at the time and again an outstanding season in a title winning team he created and scored loads of goals

I think they were both very loved at the time, so maybe the underratedness becomes about their legacy. Who was the better player out of the two? Anders. Anders. Anders was the more refined, more interesting, more imaginative player. Technically gifted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think Anders Lindholm was... Marwood was very, very reliable. I don't think Anders was underrated. I mean, I just don't. I think everyone went, oh my God, he's brilliant. But he was good enough to be talked about as an all-time great. It was quite short and sharp. It's only a couple of seasons, right? Yeah, and I don't think that...

Well, like James said, you know, you have to tell me about them. But James might know more about other players of that era. Yeah, that's fair. Do you know what I mean? So, like, you haven't got to hear about Anders Lindholm and how great he was. Is that true for both of them then? Well, actually, I'll tell you where I'm at, which is that, like,

Anders is a player that I do hear talked about quite a lot, you know, and people sort of share their memories of him and how excited they were. Whereas I don't hear Brian Marks. Yeah, exactly. Which is why I picked him. But I think Anders was underrated by George. Right. I think that was the bigger issue that Anders probably could have been a bigger club legend if George had trusted him more.

I trained with Anders Lindparten as a winger. It was a joy to train with him. He's like, this bloke's good. I've got to work something to get in ahead of this guy. Thankfully, he left by the time I got old enough to be involved. Even though I picked both, for me, the more underrated of the two is Brian Marwood. But for the reasons that Amy outlined, he's in product. I always...

I like to judge players on end product and he's not showy. He was not showy. He didn't have that many tricks. He wasn't a crowd pleaser in the skill stakes. But he was effective. He was brilliant.

very effective yes very effective when he played he would drop a shoulder whip across in alan smith would score it and it'd be rinse and repeat week after week after week and he got injured and then we let him go and now he's known as this guy this technical director at man city and and whatnot and we we don't really he doesn't get any love really from our supporters and i think for his contribution he deserves it he's the first winger that i saw when i was a

a junior, getting my free tickets in the West End lower as one of the sort of centre of excellence players. And I loved Marwood. So that's where my pick goes. Just because I think Limpa is rated by so many. That's where I'm at. So Adrian's won me round there because as I say, I've heard enough talk of Anders to think he does get his due to an extent. Whereas Brian Marwood, I think...

isn't in those conversations. So I'll say him. I'm going for Anders because I think he could be an all-time great in the pantheon and that he isn't feels a bit of a shame. I'm going for Anders. I'm having Brian Marwood. I'm having Brian Marwood because I always rated Anders and I think a lot of people did.

But I understand the point you're making. Brian Wellwood goes through. Oh, here we go. The forwards, Alan Smith against Olivier Giroud. This is a hard one, I think. That's tough. Because, James, I'm going to come to you first. Talk about Olivier Giroud then. Because...

He got a lot of stick. He did. Olivier Giroud. From the first moment, personally, I sit next to him at the game, he missed the chance and my mate came on. He's no Van Persie, is he? At home to Sunderland, I think it was, opening day. I think he came off the bench. And he went round the goalkeeper and he missed it. Yeah. And honestly, my mate is like, nah. He didn't score for six or seven games, did he? I think his first goal was in the League Cup, possibly against Coventry.

And it took a while for him to get there. And the Arsenal fans were split between those who were like, we're not having this bloke. And the others who were like, well, Thierry didn't score. You know, there's always that thing of Dennis didn't score. Ha ha ha!

I'm sure you were sort of saying that at the time, probably. We did have that conversation quite a bit. And he grew into a player who was a phenomenal talent. And you think of his flicks. We were talking the other day about Jack Wilshere's goal. Oh, yeah. The link play was fantastic. Wilshere, Brzezinski, that brilliant team goal. Scorpion. Scorpion, yeah. I think he was underrated for sure. And I think that he suffered from...

following some astonishingly good strikers in Thierry Henry, Ron Van Persie, Adebayor. Do you think he was underrated because...

everybody knew he had a high ceiling of capability but he wasn't consistent enough so you know I think for all the great things that you remember him doing he could really squander some chances I remember the Monaco game yeah that Monaco game he missed chances and he wasn't as good a finisher as some of the other players but look at the career that he's had you know I mean to be France's yeah

top goal scorer for a certain period of time what he's won is absolutely incredible when you think about some of the forwards when you look at the history of French football he could be one of the most underrated players in world football Olivier Giroud not in modern history but does it mean that he's more underrated than Anna Smith well let's hear the case then because Anna Smith suffered because Ian Wright was the darling

Paul Merson as well was more popular. Super Kevin Campbell, you know, for obvious reasons. It's true. Out of those forwards, he'd be the most underrated. Yes, but also, he'd already won the Golden Boot twice by the time before Ian Wright showed up. He was a prolific goalscorer. He was fantastic. And I played with him and his touch was just ridiculous. I think he might be the best target man we've ever had. Is it the lack of showing is what we're talking about? He's just...

One of the most unshowy players. He brings the ball down, he gives it to someone in a better position or he shoots. Yeah, he was so unselfish. But unselfishly brilliant. Like you said, two golden boots. Part of a title-winning side. And the Palmer goal to win the most recent European trophy in Arsenal's history. Ian Wright, for obvious reasons, and others, at the top end of the pitch, will always get spoken about more than Alan Smith. So...

Yeah, I would lean towards Smudger here. It's an incredibly difficult one. It's a high calibre tie. I would also take some influence from a lot of Smudger's teammates and speak to Lee Dixon, Nigel Winterburn, Tony Adams, Steve Bould, Paul Merson, all of that lot. And that word underrated just came up again and again. For them, they couldn't rate him any higher.

but they felt that outside of their inner circle he didn't get the credit he deserved with England he had Lineker so what could you do you know and he obviously played with Lineker at Leicester as well he was always played second fiddle to someone else yet for me he was brilliant there was no one better at what he did than Alan Smith let's vote alright let's have a vote Alan Smith for me Alan Smith

Alan Smith. I've come around, I think Alan Smith. Yeah, yeah, that's high quality round of 16 as well, that one, but Alan Smith goes through. Come see us go! Come see us go! Come see us go!

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All right, welcome back. The second section of the podcast. Ian Stone, Amy Lawrence, Adrian Clarke, James McNicholas and Art here in spirit. Happy birthday, Art. Happy birthday again. Theo Walcott against Paul Merson. We're going for the most underrated players. Amy, does anyone underrate Paul Merson? I mean... I think they do. Hmm.

I think he's one of the best players I've ever seen. But I don't think he gets that kind of recognition.

Is that because of his... It's a long time ago, but... Is that because of the off-the-pitch stuff, the lifestyle, things like that? Do you think that... I don't know. Soccer Saturday? Yeah. Maybe. He's like a... I think it is so generational, isn't it? You know, if you grew up watching these guys, you have a very different relationship with them. That if you come across them later in life and they're a post-footballer adult doing different stuff and then you maybe look back at some old clips, it's almost impossible to get a sense of...

how they were or how popular they were or how you felt about them. He was magic. Obviously, they called him the magic man. He called him the magic man, yeah, with good reason. He was a maverick. He had such beautiful artistic interpretation of football and he was fast and he had that kind of long hair for a while and he always looked a bit unkempt. Like you never really quite knew what he was going to do, but it was going to be amazing. The best chipper I've ever seen.

Brilliant chipper. He would chip the Arsenal goalies, like chip Lukic, he'd chip Seaman, and obviously Spunky hated it. So if he got chipped and caught it, then the ball gets launched about 100 yards the other way, and Merce has to go and get it in training or whatever. Damien never played with the ends of the lane, really. I would have quite liked to have seen that. Yeah, Merce was unbelievable. He was always...

not an easy player to play alongside as a youngster because he wasn't that forgiving. You know, a lot of the senior pros were quite, well, lovely. You know, even if you make a mistake, the sort of arm around your shoulder. Merce was quite, nah, come on, mate, you've got to be better than that. He's on you, you know. But I don't mind that really looking back.

I just think he is underrated because his skill, his ability to turn a match with a piece of individual brilliance was phenomenal. He could play as a striker. He could play as a winger. And when I broke into the team in the mid-90s, he also played as a central midfielder. That's how good he was. This is easy for me. Because Theo, I really like Theo. He was a great player for us. But I always felt that he did as well as he possibly could ever have wished to do.

for his ability. People don't rate him. I mean, he got over 100 goals for the other one. What I'm saying is I don't think he had that much natural talent. I think he had amazing speed. I don't think he was a brilliant player, but he's had an amazing career. He's had an amazing career. I mean, I think I put Walcott in because 400 games, 100 plus goals. This is true, yeah. 70 assists. And for me, he suffered from the fact that basically he wasn't Thierry Henry.

You know, he got bought at 15 for whatever it was, 10, 15 million quid. There was so much excitement every time when he started, when he got the ball. There was a lot of excitement. Yeah. And he never quite produced, but... I mean, but the numbers are what they are. Yeah. Like, those numbers from any wide player are really strong. Yeah, they are great numbers. And I do... Listen, I sometimes think with Theo...

Because he was bought in, because there was all that money attached to it, and maybe because of the World Cup and Sven and all that as well. If he'd just come through our academy, if he'd been an academy player, who'd scored 100 goals, 70 assists, what is the esteem in which he'd be held now? He came in at 15. And I get it. You're right, Adrian. He wasn't the most technically complete player by any stretch of the imagination. But for a wide player, I think you said it maybe about Brian Marwood, what you're looking for is that productivity. And I just don't think you can argue with his. So,

That was my reason to put Theo in. I think it's a good shout. I'm not sure if he beats Merson on this one. I think he deserves his place in the tournament. This is really difficult, actually. I do think Theo was underrated, but Merson...

I don't know. Let's have a vote. I mean, I actually don't know. Adrian, what do you think? Yeah, Merce for me. I agree with what James said there. Great numbers. But I just feel he got the maximum out of his ability. And for that reason, he deserves credit, for sure. But he wasn't underrated like Merce, in my opinion. Merce, underrated. James, what are you saying? Obviously, I put Theo in. But I think I will actually go with Merce. I think I will go with Merce. Yeah, I just think...

I think talent-wise, there are very few Arsenal players of the last 30, 40 years who compete with him in terms of pure talent. And I don't think he is discussed in those terms very often. So I'll go with Merson. Amy, you're having Merson. Merson. And I was trying to think of who, if there was anyone who reminded me of Merson, like recently, because I had it in my mind that someone reminded me a bit of him and it was Emile Smith-Rowe. And at times...

There was something connected there. And just an observation, interestingly, we've had 17 names in this World Cup of underrateds and only one of them, Paul Merson, is homegrown. And that's an interesting... By the way, the most underrated players, of course, won't have been picked.

Do you know what? I thought of one sat here. I thought of one sat here. Paul Davis. Yeah. Paul Davis is very underrated, I thought. Yes. We can discuss a few. They're not in there. But, I mean, listen, the vote has been taken. And whatever I say is irrelevant at this point. Paul Merson goes through. What have we got? The Ox against Steve Williams. Tell me about Steve Williams.

Yeah, you'd have to tell me about Steve Williams as well. Who brought Steve Williams in? My choice. That was you. Well, go on then. It's the furthest back I went in this. And growing up, you know, loads of people loved Steve Williams in the 80s when he came through. He was quite hard, wasn't he? He was quite tough. Combative. But he was really skillful as well. Silky. He was a really silky player. Exactly. Sort of being that combination of being silky and combative.

that generation was a little bit unusual and he just caught my eye like straight away when I was in my sort of formative years of watching Arsenal and you know he wasn't particularly popular generally I think he had a bunch of Arsenal fans who loved him but outside of that I don't think he got a great deal of attention and it

It was one of the probably first moments that I remember that kind of concept of an underrated player. And it was like, oh, you know, we meet someone down the pub, they go, ah, Steve Williams, so great, so underrated. So for that reason, I put in Steve Williams. I can only endorse, entirely endorse what Amy said. I feel exactly the same way about him. You know, you'd see him, he was just such a beautiful footballer to watch. He made it look quite easy and I...

I mean, I'm not sure half the Arsenal fans now would recognise him if he walked in the park. Oh, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't. And he was an excellent player and also played in a good side. And let's talk about the Ox then. James, a sort of slight grimace came across your face when I mentioned the Ox. Is that because he didn't quite achieve? And because he was, I don't know, was he underrated? I think he was.

Yeah, maybe. I feel like some of these other players we've talked about in more recent areas, he suffers from the way he left the club. Obviously, he had a lot of injury problems as well. Went to a rival. That's never popular. I'm not sure I would have him as massively underrated, though. For me, he never quite... I know injuries were a big factor, but he never really established himself at Arsenal for me. I still couldn't tell you now what his best position was. And...

I think he had obvious talent, but...

I don't think he got close to fulfilling what he was capable of. So therefore, not as underrated as... Do you know what? Underachieved. Yeah, that's a different thing, isn't it? Because his ability was ridiculously good. But the injuries killed him. Yeah, exactly. And that's a legitimate reason. But yeah, I wouldn't really have him as being hugely underrated. I think he had the talent to have been regarded in higher esteem, but was a bit inconsistent and had a lot of injuries. So...

I don't think I can vote for him. So I'm going to go, I'm going to blind vote Steve Williams and just trust in Amy and Stoney. Me too. We're all having Steve Williams. And then the final pairing is Santi Gazzola and Sylvain Wiltord. I don't think this is that difficult, actually. I think Sylvain Wiltord was hugely underrated. I think he, I mean, he wasn't really first team at the end, was he? But,

And he was also, by the way, at one point, the most expensive signing that we had as well. But I don't think people really appreciated what he did for the team. Whereas Santi Gazzola, I mean, we all loved Santi. I think we all rated Santi. What do you think, Amy?

Again, it's a bit troubling and it's that thing that I find I keep arguing with myself about, which is whether someone who is brilliant gets enough credit for their brilliance, i.e. Santi, and is that enough to outmanoeuvre a player who, you know, is maybe less loved or remembered?

and I'm going to continue having that argument with myself for a bit until we have to vote, I think, because I'm really struggling. It's really hard. It's not easy, that. Yeah, because wheel tours appearances came at a time when I wasn't covering Arsenal. I wasn't watching them as intently as I do now. I was watching, of course, Arsenal.

I always thought he was more of an impact player than someone that was a special talent. But he did come up with big moments, didn't he, Sylvain Wiltord? I do think that Santi Cazorla is a little bit underrated. I think that the football that that team played is underrated in terms of the beauty of it, the one- and two-touch football. Because we didn't win a lot, obviously we won a couple of FA Cups and whatnot, but because we didn't challenge for the league during that era...

you know that that he's maybe overlooked a little bit in terms of pure enjoyment i think it's hard to find many players i liked watching more than than santi cazorla yet would he make anyone's best team of the last 20 years i don't know you know probably not you know so i think there's also an element of being you know rated within planet arsenal and outside of planet arsenal yes

And that, I find, kind of complicates the issue as well. Because for someone like Santi... Liverpool City fans... Yeah, exactly. Do they remember? Maybe not. I don't think so. I don't think they even remember him. OK, let's have a vote. James, what are you doing?

I find this one really tough, I've got to say. I think I've just been swayed by that idea of sort of wider perception outside Arsenal. And I'm going to say Santi. Because I do think that in terms of ability and talent, he should be held up along with your David Silvers and everybody else that's discussed in those terms. And he isn't. So I'll say Santi.

Yeah, same for me. I think Wilto was a good player, but I think he's remembered as a good player, not as anything less. So I'm going to go with Santi. Santi. All right. Well, I'll go with the majority then in that case. There you go. We have our quarter finalists, Santi Gazzola against Steve Williams, Paul Merson against Alan Smith, Brian Marwood against Gilberto Silva and Emmanuel Adebayor against Bakary Sania. You've only come to see me, I'll score. You've only come to see me, I'll score. You've only come to see me.

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They get a hand-wreck off and you can see that they are more free to play. We're going to start with Emmanuel Adebayor against Bakary Sania. We'll zip through these quicker now. Who's more underrated, Emmanuel Adebayor or Bakary Sania? I, by the way, am having Bakary Sania out of these two because I do think...

He was underrated and I thought he was incredibly brave and didn't get the... Okay, we're rushing through it, Ian. Okay, so a name will do. Oh, that's Amy Lawrence rushing somebody else's answer. It was. He got me right at the beginning. So with the elderflower, this is just me just reminding him I'm here. One word answer, Zanya. Zanya.

Yeah. Adrian? Three yeses. Sanya, yeah. Sanya it is. See Emmanuel Adebayor. Yeah, we never liked him anyway. We didn't want him to win. No, we absolutely did not. Brian Marwood against Gilberto Silva. Adrian, what are you having? It's tough. This is hard because we made strong cases for both here. Yeah, but you know what? One word answers because Amy's got things to do. I don't know if we're looking for one word, are we? Yeah.

It is a tough one. I'm going to go with... I strongly feel that Brian Marwood was really underrated, so I'm going to go with that. Gilberto for me. Gilberto. James? It's hard for me to vote for Brian Marwood, not really remembering him as a player, so I'm going to say Gilberto. Gilberto for me as well. Gilberto. Thank you, Brian. Paul Merson against Alan Smith.

This is getting harder, to be honest with you. Amy, I'm going to come to you first. This is prime time, eight o'clock. I have to go, honestly. You're going smudger. You're going smudger. What are you having, Adrian? Come back to me.

I think Alan Smith, for me, is the more underrated. When you look at his career and his contribution, I don't think he gets enough respect. All right. I'm going to say Paul Merson just to make it difficult for Adrian. So in that Simon Cowell pitch. You are in the Simon Cowell pitch. Do I take it to the playoff? Yeah, take it to the playoff. I've got to say that for me...

Alan Smith is the most underrated of the two because he was the best target man we've ever had.

And people don't give him enough credit for that. Alan Smith goes through to the semi-final. And finally, Santi Gazzola against Steve Williams. I mean, it's not a tie-breaker. Extremely random. It's just so random, isn't it? It's the match-up we were all hoping for. This is the weaker quarterfinal, isn't it? It's the weakest quarter. Tough for me to go Steve Williams because I don't really know him as a player.

I will go Santi. I mean, he's in a different category of underappreciated, I think, where it's sort of... He's very widely appreciated by us, but does he get that wider level of respect? Does...

Does the... I mean, Luca's a bit different. Does the average sort of... How old's Luca? Amy's son. 17. Does the average 17-year-old even know Santi Cazorla? Luca, hang on. Have a microphone. Bring Luca in for a second. This is good, yeah. What do you think? Well, I know that me and my friends definitely know Santi Cazorla. I mean, he's kind of the midfielder that we grew up on. He's the first sort of...

I'd say technical genius player I got to see play for Arsenal because he was slightly before Alexis. Yeah. And slightly before Ozil. I mean, I definitely know that all the Arsenal fans know him as one you guys want about Planet Arsenal and the rest of the world. And I'd be surprised if the rest of the world don't know who he is, kids my age, because...

I would never say he was the star. However, he deserved to be the star. It's just he was in a team of some incredible players. Which is the very definition of underrated, isn't it, really? Just ask you what you think of Steve Williams. I'm just joking. Oh, this is so difficult, isn't it? James didn't know about Steve Williams. Come on. I think we've got a future broadcaster here, by the way. Yeah, that was a good answer. Santi Gazzola did score one of the most important goals of...

Lucas Life. There is that as well. This is true, yeah. This is not what we're talking about here. I know, I'm sorry. I'll just give you a name, shall I? Yes, yes. Jay is holding up a card saying vote. So we will vote. Amy? Santy.

Yeah, Santi. Santi. I'm having Santi as well. Much as I thought Steve Williams was crudely underrated, Santi Gazzola. What a semi-final we've got. Semi-final line-up is Santi Gazzola against Anna Smith. A slight height difference there, by the way, I would say. And Gilberto Silva against Bakary Sanja. That is a tough match-up as well. So let's go with Gilberto against Bakary Sanja. Gilberto, I mean, Gilberto for me. It's Gilberto for me.

Yeah, I don't think I voted for him the whole way through. Now on a flip-flop, just because I don't know if Asana deserves his place in the final. Like, Gilberto Silva was amazing, but you would never get the love that he deserved because of Patrick Vieira playing in his position.

Being that tall, statuesque central midfielder that, you know, he would always be second fiddle. But he wasn't far off him in terms of impact on that team. Vieira is an all-time great in the Premier League. But he wasn't far off him in terms of his importance to the Arsenal team. And for that reason...

because Sanya's a fullback it's less it's less of an important role in a way I go I'm going for the Brazilian Gilberto it's Moo I would stick with Sanya yeah I do think maybe he's just my guy I don't know but I'll go down on that ship

I vote for Santigazorla. Gilberto's a worthy finalist. Yeah, well, I'm having Gilberto. Yeah, because, you know, I just don't think people realised how good he was. And the other matchup is Santigazorla against Alan Smith. Smudger. Smudger. Alan Smith. Smudger. Smudger it is. Sorry, Santig. But yeah, he'll get a coaching role next year, so we're okay with that. And then the final. That'd be nice, wouldn't it?

is a tremendous final. I think a fitting final. Alan Smith against Gilberto Silva. Can I just say at this point, I can't choose. I have no idea. I think these both, they did so much good for our team. And I don't think people have...

quite the love for either of them that they should. If Smith was available right now in his pump, you'd forget about Sesko. We're saving a hundred million quid. We are saving a hundred million pound, aren't we? But if Gilberto's there, we can send Martin Zubermendi home again, can't we? He's in just got here, Stoney. I know. Sorry, Martin. You just faffed about for too long with your signing. Oh,

All right. We're just going to vote on this and we're going to get a winner. James, Gilberto Silva or Alan Smith for the most underrated Arsenal player in our recent history? Well, Gilberto Silva is also one of my favourite players of all time, but I am going to vote for Alan Smith. Adrian, what are you having? Alan Smith. You're having Alan Smith as well? Yeah, he deserves it. Amy? Really, really difficult. He's incredibly hard.

I'm just looking at the two names and my mind is like mashed potato. Alan Smith. All right then. What would you have said Ian?

In Simon Cowell's style, what would you have said? Most underrated Arsenal player, Gilberto, is what I would have said. Because I just don't think he got the credit he deserved. And like I say, it's only when they're not playing and you go, you know, we had Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira, Ashley Cole, Robert Perez, Freddie Lundberg, amazing team. And when he wasn't playing, they looked s***.

and you went hang on a minute how does that work that's how underrated I think he is you know what's quite nice we haven't disagreed with Arsene because obviously he never managed Alan Smith Gilberto's still Arsene's most underrated player but yeah either would have been a worthy winner for sure yeah but can they share it

Nope. No, they can't. No, no, no. And, you know, as we've sort of been saying, the real sign of being underrated is not winning. So Gilberto, he's got that, hasn't he? Alan Smith. Alan Smith is, according to Handbrake Off, the most underrated Arsenal player in recent Arsenal history. Steve Williams was the earliest who went back. That was mid-80s. Okay. Ooh.

what we're going to do, we're going to have a quick break and then we're going to do a little bit of overrated, aren't we? Not to the same extent, but we'll do that. Ian Stone, James McNicholas, Adrian Clarke and Amy Lawrence and partly Luca Lawrence as well on Handbrake Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Come see the Arsenal! Come see the Arsenal! You've got it!

Alright, the final part of Hand Break Off. James McNicholas, Amy Lawrence, Adrian Clarke and Ian Stone here in the Highbury Barn pub or slightly outside the Highbury Barn pub waiting for our food. So we won't hang about too long on this one. You have texted Alan Smith.

to let him know that he's won our little competition. I hope that he's going to be as thrilled as we would expect. Of course, of course. Well, I am absolutely overwhelmed, to be honest, and honoured, obviously, to win this award. What a surprise it was when I heard, and up against such illustrious competitors, that

I don't know if it's a compliment to be underrated, but I'll take it. It's been a word associated with me for quite some time. So it is what it is. But I'd have loved to have had a longer, more successful England career. But I loved every second of it, the time that I did spend there. But thank you to all those that voted. Thank you very much. We couldn't do underrated without doing overrated players.

Have we got an overrated player, Adrian? I mean, I'm slightly more uncomfortable with this one. Yeah, I don't like it. I don't like the concept massively. But I think one that really stands out for the career he's now having that was in most people's World Cup 2018 or 2022 team for England was Callum Chambers.

And he was seen as the wonder kid. He was seen as like... Why? Who? No, but he was. He really was. Before we signed him, he was seen as like somebody that was going to be England's next right back for a decade. He's going to be in... You know, he's going to be this, he's going to be that. And, you know, we all bought into it a little bit. But ultimately...

really deliver for us did he and his career is sort of fading a little bit I always felt Ainsley Maitland-Niles was really overrated when he was here and I was quite I had to be really careful because obviously I work at Arsenal and he was the player that really frustrated me because I didn't get the hype I felt that he was just way too casual for any professional footballer and actually for any defender

to ever be I don't want my defenders to lay back I just don't like it so they're two that really stand out and I would also say Hector Beyrid because I think he had a lot of games for Arsenal and I don't know if he was ever that brilliant if truth be told

Right, so you didn't like the concept, but you went for it. I stuck my boot in there, didn't I? I stuck my boot in. I had Ainsley as well. It feels cruel, but I think because he was an academy player, there was a lot of excitement about him. And he was always being talked about as this great right back. And I never really saw it, you know. And I remember when Wolves came in to the tune of about 15 million pounds. Oh yeah, please buy him. Yeah, we turned that down. And I think that decision was made to look

slightly foolish, I think, by the way things panned out for Ainsley after that. So he was in there, in his own mind, Nicholas Bentner, of course. No one rated themselves higher than he did. That's who I was going to have. Yeah. I mean, Nicholas Bentner was amazing and I, and, and,

He obviously thought he was the best, which is why he took a touch against Barcelona when he should have just buried it in the corner in the last few minutes. They psychologically profile all the players and I think they score them on, you know, self-belief and confidence. And he was apparently literally off the charts. Yes, yes. He'll do all right in life though, won't he? I'm sure he will. I think he probably will. Amy, overrated players, anyone spring to mind? Alex Schlepp.

Overrated? Alex, come on. Drove me mad. Sorry. Art's going to kill you. I'm a bit disappointed he's not here, just, you know, for a birthday row. But...

But yeah. He couldn't kick the ball, could he? Lots of people loved him and I just, it just drove me up the wall watching him. Brilliant dribbler, but you know players who just don't strike the ball clean, ever. He'd never take a shot on. Never shoot. Never shoot. I remember being about two yards away and not shooting and passing it and he'd think, mate, what are you doing? Yeah. You know. Who was our choice, by the way, Jay? It was Kolo Turo. Overrated. Being overrated. Oh, Lordy. Oh, I hear him and Amy right now.

Amy's having palpitations. We'd be barred. That's what we'd have. We thought we'd have a song to finish. We thought we'd have an overrated song. This got quite heated, didn't it? When we were discussing this. Because I chose Hole of the Moon by the Waterboys, which I would rather...

eat my own leg than have to listen to if I'm totally honest with you. And people really like the song, but I'm not a fan. Amy, you didn't seem happy with my choice. Well, you know. You like the song? I like it. Okay, fair enough. But I would rather eat my own body than listen to Sweet Caroline, which is a known fact, but, you know, I can't go anywhere but there. You know what? Okay. Okay.

reaching out I lent in when I said that let's not have a proper fight at the pub it's hard it's hard I don't know my music knowledge is not it's not top notch we know we accept that but I was looking through some of the ones that I've downloaded over the years and there's one that I just always skip I actually hate it

It takes about eight minutes. Led Zeppelin, Stairway to Heaven. It's boring. It just goes on and on and on. Wow. And it just never really gets going for me. I'll always skip it. Oh, my God. I don't like it. But it's rated as one of the greatest songs ever for me.

Not a fan. Not having it. It does feel like he's not having it. Okay. That's exactly the sort of choice I thought you would make. Good. James, what about you? Overrated song? Well, I'm a fan of Oasis. I like Oasis. And I'm going to see them in September. But there is one of their songs that I'm just like, I can't. For me, Wonderwall is an overrated song. It's a dirge. It is a dirge. Like, it's very...

It's... Yeah. It's a slog, Wonderwall. I'm an Oasis super fan and it probably doesn't make my top 15. And it's probably like their most famous song. You know what I mean? Like it's... Yeah. But it's by far from their best. So I would say Wonderwall for me. All right. Can I add Rip It Up by Orange Juice as well? Oh, God. Oh, God.

I knew you'd react to that. No, also, I had a bit of a falling out with him on a radio show. Edwin Collins. It's all coming out now. Yeah, it is all coming out. Anyway, I'm sure it's all sorted now. Never liked that song. That's it. Love your comedy. Yeah.

I know. Not funny, he said. Keep it coming. I wish he'd leave me alone. That's it for this bumper edition of Handbrake Off. Thank you to James McNicholas and Adrian Clark and Amy Lawrence and indeed Luca Lawrence. And Jay, thank you for sorting it out. And also, I've had two beers, all right? This is really unusual. And the Highbury Barn for hosting us. And yeah, thanks for listening. Speak to you soon. Ta-ra. Ta-ra.

♪

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