Contract uncertainty continues after defeat at the Cottage despite van Dijk 'progress'
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Visit jdpower.com slash awards for more details. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more. Offer valid April 3rd through April 23rd. U.S. only. See store online for details. The Athletic FC Podcast Network. All right, Reds. Tony Evans here with Walk On, your Liverpool podcast from The Athletic. I'm here with James Pearce and Simon Hughes.

Well, we'll talk about the defeat at the cottage, as well as looking at the impact it'll have on contract uncertainty. But first, let's get to those three words. And Si, I'm told that you spent the weekend hanging with a member of a boy band. LAUGHTER

That's true. That's true. Do you want me to tell the story? I want you to tell the story. Okay. Okay. So I'm out on Friday night in Crosby, where I live. And one of my mates, it's fair to say he's pretty interested in celebrity culture.

So he comes scuttling over dead excited. And he's like, you're not going to believe it. Shane Duffy's over there. So this lad is an Evertonian. Shane Duffy is a former Everton player. So I'm looking over thinking, where's that big ugly centre half that used to play for Everton? Can't see him. Then another guy turns around and it turns out he actually means Keith Duffy from Boyzone. So I don't know.

I don't know whether he's... I thought you can see why you get the two of them confused. You could, yeah. So I don't know whether he's gone over. So I'm going to name him, by the way, Matt. He's not listening because he's a blue, but some of me Liverpool mates might be listening. I don't know whether he's gone over to him and introduced himself and said, all right, Shane, or Eddie. He hasn't really elaborated on that.

But yeah, it was just a surreal sort of surreal sighting, you know, just straight after Ladies' Day in the National. I assume that's why he was there. And ordinarily, I wouldn't ask for a photograph, but when you're out with your mates...

You've got it. You've got a photograph with a celebrity. You've got to do it. You've got to do it. Oh, James, isn't that the lowest of the low? Choose your answer carefully, James, because I know you've had some photographs with some famous people over the weekend. Yeah, I got one with Tony McCoy at Aintree on Friday. I thought it was Rob Brydon. What? Joking. They look alike, don't they? Do you know what? The one that got away from me was...

Years back, we were pulling into Chirwell Valley Services, me and Ian Doyle from The Echo. And do you know who crossed the road in front of us? Pat Butcher from EastEnders. And I said, just pull the car in, pull the car in. And he was messing around, took ages to get the parking spot. And by the time we parked up, she was gone.

You know what? Everyone thinks that because these guys lead this glamorous life, you know, mixing with footballers and managers and all that, they think that they're not the sort of pathetic groupies, which in fact, people that you found out, they just are. Anyway, three words, Si, three words. It's only words. There you go. You're having that. Only words and words are all to take your heart away.

Think about it. Which, for those who don't know, is a boy's own song. How about three words connected with football, please? Okay. No square balls. Oh, I agree completely, James. The celebrities you saw are merely in the mix zone, I'm sure. Complacency the enemy. I like that. I like that. Now, let's see what you're saying. Phil Lodge says, the same as you do. Complacency the enemy.

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Well, James, on a lovely sunny day beside the Thames, you think, oh, it's really nice here. And the cottage is a great place to watch football. And you must have been thinking when McAllister scored, oh, what a wonderful Sunday. Yeah, yeah, I was. Certainly didn't see...

didn't see that coming just the way in which Liverpool absolutely imploded in the space of that dreadful 15 minute 20 minute period yeah it was just very uncharacteristic wasn't it three dreadful goals to concede they were the sort of goals you concede when

when you join the wrong five-a-side game. When you don't have that understanding with the players around you. Yeah, you're completely amateur and you're in the wrong business. Yeah, when I look back over the starts, it was like, you have to go back to that

7-2 defeat to Villa behind closed doors in October 2020 for the last time Liverpool conceded three or more in the first half of a league game. I mean, it was a real comedy of errors, wasn't it? It was the first one, again, a midfielder is able to run 20, 25 yards with it unchallenged.

Canate makes an absolute hash of the cross. It bounces off Curtis Jones and it's a decent finish from Sessegnon. The second one, obviously, you know, Andy Robertson, I just, it's inexplicable to play the ball across the face of your own area like that, gifts it to Awobi. And then, of course, in his desperation to make amends, he then ends up

challenging with Pereira, knocking the ball back into Iwobi's path and then just for good measure getting a deflection on the shot which takes it past Kelleher and then the third one's not much better is it? Van Dijk. No, we've all seen it. You don't have to rub us in. When you watched it I watched it.

I put myself through it, watching it back last night before I finished my piece, which centered mainly around Robertson and his future. But yeah, it was just, wow, you know, how can a team that's got where they are by making so few mistakes over the course of this season be

implode like that in such a short space of time although you know the second half of course was very different and Liverpool nearly salvaged something I don't think they deserved anything because they were so poor in that first half period yes I think it's really important at this juncture to say it's only the second league defeat I mean let's get it into perspective but but while slot was really quick to rule out complacency what do you think the issues were defensively

I mean, I thought they were okay midfield Liverpool. You know, they looked, even in the first half, threatening going forwards. They created enough chances the second half to have got a point. Ultimately, you know, Harvey Elliott hit the bar. Salah should score. Jota, I can't believe, misses that chance straight after half-time.

They need to sort the defence out. It's been two games on the bounce now. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You've just gone, need to sort the defence out. And then you're like, give us a list of attacking problems. Fair enough. But ordinarily, you'd expect in those players, in any normal circumstance, I think Liverpool have given themselves too much to do, put it that way, to be 3-1 down. To be 3-1 down. I mean, I didn't think it was a terrible first half performance. I thought it was just a 15-minute period of madness, to be honest. Yeah.

albeit that they didn't start particularly well defensively. Canate dawdling on the ball in his own box, taking too many touches. The two centre-halves seemed affronted by any physical challenge coming their way. It's like, oh, we can't do that. It's like, well, why not? So, yeah, you're right, Tony. Obviously, Liverpool did miss a few chances, but if you concede three goals in the first half...

It's a cliche, but you're giving yourself a mountain to climb. It's very difficult to get back into the game on that basis. I think, you know, with Liverpool a bit calmer in that period and they even restricted to do, they'd probably still win, draw it or win the game. But it was just absolutely shambolic defending without sounding too much like Alan Hansen. But it was. I haven't seen anything like it since...

it did make me think of that Aston Villa game I was thinking every time Fulham go forward they're going to score James we've got a lot to thank our blue friends for haven't we and I don't mean for introducing Si to a member of Boison but

I mean, Everton have had a good week for us, haven't they? Yes, they have. Yeah, yeah. And obviously, this was always going to be an element, wasn't it? I think in the running, the fact that for all the talk of Liverpool need X number of points to get the job done, the caveat was always, well,

that is based on Arsenal being perfect. And what makes you think for a second, Arsenal are going to be perfect? You know, they're only averaging, what is it, probably two points a game all season. And they've dropped points in some like 14 games at Arsenal. So it was never realistic.

And I think especially with the way that their games fall now with, you know, obviously their priority will be the Champions League tie against Real Madrid. So... Good luck with that. Yes. Yeah, yeah. A favour of our Everton friends the day before certainly helped. And I do...

personally, I think complacency did play a part. I just think, and not to the point where they turned up and thought, well, you know, we'll be fine here today. I just think it's human nature that when you're so far ahead and, you know, the lack of pressure being applied by any of the chasing pack, Arsenal dropping points again, you know, 11 points clear, only eight to go. And then you go into that game. I just think there was just some

some intensity lacking that I think, I just think the approach would have been different if the stakes have been higher. I think you're right. I think you're right.

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Well, let's talk about Mohamed Salah and Virgil van Dijk. Thanks, Si. I have written a book about Mohamed Salah called Chasing Salah, available at all good bookshops. But not only that, I have it up for an award. Now, was it the Pulitzer Prize or the Nobel Prize for Literature? Neither of them, Tony.

You sure? I could have sworn. It would be lovely. I think it's the prize for most plugs for a book ever on a podcast. Yeah. But anyway, when I talk about Salah and Virgil van Dijk,

I mean, both of them have had a pretty poor month by their standards. Six weeks even. Yeah. And there's a number of factors here. But for me, I wonder what it's like to be living with the uncertainty of you go in to train and you come home, you know, family members there. Where are we going to be living, you know, at the end of the summer, mate? Do you think, well, is that playing a part? And the second point is, is

Is this going to prove to the data guys sitting in the bunker crunching numbers that the age is beginning to have a huge impact on the performances and, you know, this whole idea of wages to age ratios is beginning to kick in and have an impact? Well, I mean, they are human beings after all. And I guess, you know, I thought Sally yesterday was ineffective, right?

Calvin Bassey had a really good game on that side of the pitch. Very aggressive, very quick. I'd say first time really I've seen Salah dominated, you know, physically as well. Bassey was just better than him in that department. Meanwhile, Van Dijk up against Muniz was second best. Certainly the first half...

Fulham sat back a bit more the second half so we didn't see quite as much of that but I think they're only human at the end of the day their future they still do not know where their futures are going to be next season I did wonder at which point this might start affecting Liverpool I think they've been

There's a line, isn't there, almost where players, I think there's this theory, isn't it, players play for their futures. There's this motivating factor that when they've got to prove themselves, when they're playing for a contract, sometimes you get a bit of a lift. And certainly throughout the course of most of the season, both of them have been very, very good. But

Salah particularly last month hasn't been good Van Dijk the last couple of games hasn't been good I thought he was very good the second half against Everton but very average the first half at best I thought it was one of the worst games I'd seen him in the first half probably his worst half for Liverpool I just think you know that in the few successive games you've had centre forwards who have been willing to have a go at him test him physically and it's not something maybe he's used to you know usually players try and stand off him but

Beto and Muniz, I think, have had some joy in it. It should give other opponents a bit of confidence when they come up against them. So, yeah, I mean, it's difficult to say, who am I to say whether the future situation is affecting the performance. But when you couple that with Liverpool being so far ahead, I mean, there's this thing, isn't it? Players are professional, aren't they? But when your contract's unresolved, I'm sure you don't want to get injured as well. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you're thinking about this. Like, I remember when...

The last Salah contract, and this is documented in the famous Harvard study, which everybody gets bored of, I think, but there was a conversation between Rami Abbas, his representative, and Salah about taking out health insurance, basically, to cover the eventuality of Salah getting injured, you know, in his last season, when it seemed his contract was going to run down. So if I was one of those players, I'd be a bit concerned. Well, imagine if I get a

a career threatening injury now and the contract's not signed. You know, there's these, I'm not saying that this is playing into the way they're performing, but quite evidently, you know, it's something that they must talk about, you know, with, certainly with the representatives if they can't afford to take too many risks, can they, you know, at this stage, given the futures are so uncertain. So I don't blame them for that. I think that it would be beneficial now for things to get sort of wrapped up and give everybody a bit of peace of mind. But,

It doesn't seem, despite a lot of rumour and suggestions last week that something was going to get signed, at this stage it's still unresolved, isn't it? So Liverpool just need to make sure it doesn't affect their end of the season. As James says, they're 11 points ahead. It'd be an absolute... Well, it'd be unprecedented that Liverpool didn't win the league from this position, but it was a concern. It's been a concern and I can understand why the conversation would start, well, you know...

What do you do with these two players? Particularly Salah. I mean, he's been very quiet the last month. Albeit, you know, there is the context around Ramadan as well and Eid and everything else. And, you know, there has been sometimes a bit of a drop-off in his performances around these periods. I don't know what his schedule is like. Yeah, that'd be understandable, but that doesn't really explain Sunday. No, no, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. He was poor on Sunday and too casual in possession as well, I would say. Definitely, definitely.

James, you look over Manchester City and Kevin De Bruyne, you know, announced he's leaving and everything seems to have been sorted there, one way or another.

Would things be better at Anfield if there was a similar scenario? We at least knew where everyone was going. Because, I mean, we're in April and no one's got an idea what's going to happen. I think it's a very different situation to the De Bruyne one because De Bruyne, his powers have clearly been waning for an extended period. I think you only have to look at the injuries. When you talk about players playing for other clubs in the Premier League era, De Bruyne...

is absolutely right up there for me. I think he's been one of the greatest that has graced the Premier League that's come from overseas. But it is different because he has not had the same influence on that Man City team. He's had all the fitness issues. I think that has been on the cards for quite some time. I think the reason why it's dragged on as long as it has with Salah and Van Dijk is the fact that

And sometimes recency bias takes over, doesn't it? And you go, well, they're both struggling. Well, I think when you take a step back, you go, well, one of them has scored 32 goals this season in a team that's about to win the Premier League.

And another one has proved that, what, the age of 33, for the most part of the season, we've been talking about how he's still the best centre-back in European football. And I don't think, you know, a not great first half against Everton and then a difficult day at Craven Cottage on Sunday changes that. Well, yeah, the problem is, the problem is, if they were under contract next year, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we'd be like,

You know, they've had a brilliant season. They're having a little bit of a dip. We've won the league. You know, what year was it? It was 1983 where we had the league sewn up really early and I think we lost five of the last seven games and drew the other two. You know, I mean, it's like, you've won the league. Who cares? You know, but the problem is they're not under contract, are they?

No, no, no, yeah, you're right. And I think, but that's obviously why it's dragged on because it's not cut and dried, is it? In terms of, of course, because they've been so good this season, Liverpool want them to stay. But the caveat being at this stage in their career with what

van dyke turning 34 this summer salah 33 you have to protect the club in terms of going forward in terms of not over committing vast sums of money to players who it's inevitable there has to be some drop-off you can't keep kind of laughing in the face of father time and indefinitely so that's kind of why we've reached that point i mean van dyke stops and spoke to reporters again as he always does

on Sunday he said there had been some progress to get a selfie to get a selfie no selfie no no but you know he said there had been some progress and you know the same things he's come out previously about you know everyone knows what this club means to me I still think the most likely scenario is that they both stay but

Yeah, I'd say out of the two, I'd say Salah's drop-off over the last month or so worries me a lot more than Van Dijk's because I think Van Dijk's has just had a difficult week. I think Salah's had a pretty tough month. And again, maybe it's just the sheer workload. We're reaching the back end of the season. These players have probably played the best part of 50-odd games for the club, all the international commitments on top of that. But yeah, for a player that's been...

you know, has caused so many problems for defenders so frequently as Salah this season. The fact that, you know, his only goals in his last seven were the two penalties against Southampton. And it's not like he's being denied by worldy performances from goalkeepers or misfortune. He's actually not having the same kind of impact on games that he was. I think Salah plays too much, to be honest. He doesn't get enough rest. And I,

I don't know whether they... Obviously, he loves playing, doesn't he? He doesn't like coming off. But he's played... You know, of the forwards, he's the one that never gets rotated. He very rarely comes off. Well, yeah, and not only that, because he's the only one you can really rely on. Exactly. Do you not think he's underplayed Chiesa? I think he has. I mean, I actually thought when he came on yesterday, he did all right again, didn't he? He affected the game. He got on the ball. Maybe could have scored. Um...

But I agree. I mean, I just think that's not saying he shouldn't be, you know, sort of trying to find a solution with his contract. Just because, you know, he might be the highest paid player in the club, it doesn't mean he should play every single game. You've still got to manage the players carefully. I'm not saying he's being mismanaged at all, but I just think he might benefit sometimes because he plays every minute for Egypt as well. He doesn't get any rest, really, unless he pulls out of the team or the squad altogether. Yeah.

just to freshen him up and sharpen his mind a little bit sometimes. I mean, I think we see him as sort of indestructible, don't we, because of his physique and everything else, but he might just benefit from that, but it's how he responds to it as well. I mean...

I'm not saying now, I'm saying if he, I don't think now is the time to do that because they've got one game a week. But I think that, you know, certainly if he were to stay at the club, I think they need to find a way to eventually, you know, to get somebody to challenge him and to play a role when he's not there. Well, yeah, I mean, I do think the key going forward, if they do stay, and I personally still hope they both do stay, is

certainly would be to manage the workload. And we've been very complimentary about the way Slott has done things this year and the way he's made sure the team, for the most part, don't get into a position where they're knackered. Even though he's used a very tight squad, he's done it very well. But yeah, I think if they do stay, there'll be loads for them to think about during the summer.

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We don't want to finish on a low point. I mean, there's loads of reason for optimism. We're going to win the league! And there was also some encouraging performances at Craven Cottage, weren't there, James? Yeah, yeah, there was. I thought one real positive for me was the sight of Conor Bradley back in action, I think, after six, seven weeks out with that hamstring problem. And the difference having a designated full-back playing in the position. Yeah.

I mean, Curtis Jones, and no shade on him, no criticism, because he's done really well. But again, he looked a different player when he moved back into his regular position. And one of the things is, positions, sometimes people, seems to me in the modern game, forget, positions evolve for a reason. And, you know, people have to learn how to do it. And Curtis Jones was great against Everton.

less so a Craven cottage. And of course, when Bradley come on, they look much more solid. Yeah, yeah. I think what we said in the podcast, I think at the back end of last week, I think when you asked me, Tony, about expected changes for Fulham away, and I said, I said, I'd be very surprised if Curtis James starts it right back again.

Yeah, he does, he does.

attacking-wise, good on the ball, that he was almost relying on Liverpool to kind of cause Fulham more problems and pin Robinson back so he couldn't attack. But of course, that wasn't how it panned out. And in fact, there was a couple of times when it was just down in front of me when Curtis was screaming at Salah to get back and give him more of a hand defensively. So absolutely no slight on Curtis Jones at all. I just thought that didn't really work. And as you said, Tony, he looked so much more comfortable and effective defensively

back in his normal spot in midfield. But yeah, Conor Bradley, that's where all the talk about the expected loss of Alexander-Arnold this summer. Liverpool are very lucky to have someone as good as Conor Bradley to hopefully take on a bigger role. The only worry with Conor Bradley is can he stay fit

and rock up 30, 40, 50 appearances over the course of the season. Because when you watch him play, and of course, what was that, a 25-minute cameo on Sunday? He's got everything you want to see in that position. Even the position he takes up for Diaz's goal is exactly what

slot sees his fullback doing in terms of those underlapping runs, intelligent in terms of the movement, knowing when to go. And then a really cute pass for Diaz and a tidy finish that set up that frantic finale. I thought Diaz was great as well. And I do think lack of rotation contributed to the weekend as well, because I

I thought it was odd that there was only one change for midweek with obviously Gagpo coming in for Diaz. Gagpo just hasn't been able to get back to where he was before his ankle injury. And then I just thought,

that slot was quite slow to change it in terms of his substitutions. I thought he'd make two or three at the break. I didn't think he'd leave at 10, 15 minutes into the second half. So, and I think that all feeds back into it. Does he have sufficient trust and faith in his squad players? And I think at times the answer is no, which, you know, that then leads to the fact, well, actually it's going to be a busy summer, isn't it? Because I think Liverpool need

They need to sign a left-back. They need to sign a right-back. They need a centre-half. They need more cover for Gravenberg in midfield. And they need a new number nine. Yeah, yeah. Put like that, it's a bit concerning. But we are talking about positives. And, you know, you mentioned that Chiesa side. You expect to see a bit more of him. Harvey Elliott too. Both of them looked great when they came on. Yeah, I thought Harvey Elliott affected the game. He came on and quickened things.

things up I mean obviously he was going back to his old club and seemed like he was getting a fair amount of stick I thought the shot that he had was in it just rose very quickly at the end didn't it it was so Salah like wasn't it yeah shaped his body curled it in that's what you used to see from Salah he did very well and again he's another player who we've discussed in the past but

maybe could have played a little bit more this season. I don't think the drop, I mean, who am I? I don't know how these players train. I don't know exactly what Schloss is looking for in his players this

He seems to want midfielders who can carry the ball. Well, let's stop you there. I think you do. I mean, otherwise, like, you know, we wouldn't be having you on the podcast. Okay, I'll give you my impression then. I think slot one's sort of midfielders who can carry the ball, decent distances. I think Elliott is better in tighter spaces, finding his way out of trouble and unlocking...

short passes so maybe he's not quite the midfielder that Schlott wants meanwhile I thought maybe Elliot might have go back to the position when he joined Liverpool he sort of plays more of an attacking midfielder off the right that was his reputation I think when he joined Liverpool but I think Klopp felt he didn't quite have the pace to play in that area and compete with Salah

So, he feels a little bit lost sometimes in terms of what Liverpool are looking for, but all I can say is when he does come on, by and large, he does affect the game in a positive way, I think. And he did well yesterday. I mean, it wasn't the worst performance I've seen by any means by Liverpool. It was just, I just didn't like the attitude at certain points in the first half.

I thought he responded quite well in the second half and probably could have taken a point if not won the game with the chances that they had. Chiesa had a role in that, but he only comes on very late, doesn't he? So it's very difficult to come on and say...

go and the fact the game you know sort of 5-10 minutes max remaining I think he probably needs a little bit more time but what I like about him is he wants to get on the ball he doesn't hide he doesn't just sort of go and drift out onto the wing he comes in field and tries to make things happen doesn't always come off but

He's tried his best and when I watch him play, it seems like his attitude is right. It's not like this isn't a player who's feeling sorry for himself because he's not playing. He does try and come on and do something, which you'd expect. I mean...

A few years ago, he was regarded as one of the top wingers in the world. He's won the European Championships. Exactly. I mean, that tournament, I remember vividly, he didn't actually start in the Italy team, but as the tournament went on, he just became one of the most important players. And that's what I was hoping to see from him. It's been quite strange, you know, his Liverpool career. But I just think if they're not going to use him,

You know, if this is just him now and Slott doesn't fancy him, the best is just cutting the losses and selling him in the summer. But from what I've seen in the little bits he's played, the Newcastle game away and then Fulham, you know, he has actually done all right when he's come on. Yeah, James, I mean, it does seem to be one of the characteristics of Slott, doesn't it? That if he doesn't trust you, he doesn't trust you. I mean, go back to Kwanzaa at the beginning of the season and it's never recovered, has it?

Yeah, I think he loves having this kind of real small core group, doesn't he? That essentially it tends to be the same 13, 14 with only a couple of positions rotated and less...

There's obviously been extreme examples like the FA Cup tie at Plymouth or the dead rubber at PSV away in the Champions League, which again for me feeds back into this summer. And I think it almost loathes to talk too much about this summer because you think we should enjoy what we've got currently. And it does my head in a little bit, the modern football obsession with transfers and always like...

If you're always thinking about what you haven't got and what you need to, you never actually enjoy the current day, do you? And the achievement that Liverpool are on the brink of currently. But it is very clear, isn't it, that if Liverpool are going to hopefully retain their title next season and be a force in the other competitions as well, that some surgery is required because...

You had the situation there where obviously Liverpool were chasing the game yesterday. And I think Conor Bradley and Virgil van Dijk were the only defenders on the pitch, weren't they? Because he'd taken off Robertson, he'd taken off Canarte. As you said, Tony, at times he's been reluctant to use Kwanzaa. And then you've got Joe Gomez's injury issues as well, which again feeds into the fact that Liverpool do need to reinforce Canarte.

defensively come the summer because you know I remember going right back to the start of the season and I think it was it was actually after the the previous league defeat wasn't it to Nottingham Forest at Anfield in September where there was a lot of talk then about the lack of rotation and I remember reading pieces then from you know looking back on slot time in Holland and essentially saying well this is a guy that doesn't really rotate you know he loves having his core group

And, you know, unless there's real dip in form or injuries kick in, he doesn't deviate too much from that. But of course, I think the difference is that in the era of Divisi, you can win games in first gear, you know, if you're Feyenoord and you're 3-0 up at half time or whatever. But that's just not the reality of life in the Premier League, is it? And I think a lack of rotation at times is,

has cost Liverpool in this period where I think they're starting to feel the strain because you only have to look at the workload you know someone like Ryan Gravenberg it's not rocket science is it that he was absolutely sensational I'd say probably from August through to I don't know say January time and then probably February onwards he's not been the same force you know that that is because you know he he has been worked to such a big extent and on that front I think well

there have definitely been games where you could have given him a breather and played Endo, you know, and there's certainly been times when Salah could have come off earlier and you played Chiesa or you played Harvey Elliott in midfield. But there's been a reluctance at times to use those players on the fringes. I think before we go, and we'll be back on Thursday to talk about West Ham, but I'd like to quote the great Bill Shankly on West Ham.

Lovely club, lovely people, lovely football. Four points. It was two points to win then. And so we've got plenty to look forward to at the end of the week. So thanks to James and Si for joining me. And as I say, we'll be back on Thursday. We'll catch you then.