Mayhem ensues as the curtain falls on the Goodison derby
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Now it's all spilling over down there because Curtis Jones is unhappy with Abdullahi Nkore celebrating in front of the Liverpool fans. A bottle's just been thrown in from that section. All right, Reds, Tony Evans here with Walk On, your Liverpool podcast from The Athletic. I'm here with James Pearce and Simon Hughes. Well, what a derby, eh? We'll look back at the crazy end to the match, discuss the reliance on Mo Salah and everything in between. But first, of course, three words...

Si, I'm going to come to you as always. I'm pleased. I'm pleased you have. And I'm going to go to the school playground and shout, fight, fight, fight. I like it. I like it. I like it. James? Goodbye, Goodison Park. Yeah, and good riddance. Let's see what you're seeing. Kenneth Canavan, Oliver lost control. John Weller, Canate was fouled. Vijay Jain, seven points clear. Phil Murray, when's Everton's parade?

And I'll add one DVD out now to join our community of listeners on Facebook. Just search walk on podcast and join the group. James, what was it like? You were there. Um, absolute mayhem. Yeah, it was the, the noise was, was incredible. The, um, still trying to make sense to be honest of that, of, of what happened at the end. Um,

Yeah, I suppose we probably should have known that, you know, considering what this, that fixture's thrown up over all the years, it probably felt almost too good to be true, didn't it? Creeping towards a scrappy 2-1 victory. It was absolute mayhem, wasn't it, with the

With the manner of Tarkowski's finish and then fans on the pitch and Liverpool's protest and what was it, the three-minute VAR check and then Decore deciding he was going to celebrate by goading the away end, which then I can understand why Curtis Jones reacted the way he did. And then that triggered that melee with both sets of players, with stewards and stewards.

and police wading in to try and restore some order. And then you add four red cards shown after the final whistle. It was, um,

Yeah, when you think of the chaos that has been thrown up at Goodison in these games over the years, you'd say it was probably, you know, a fitting final chapter. Say, the commentators always go, oh, we don't want to see this. It's a lie. We want to see this. We're all Curtis Jones, aren't we? Yeah, I remember when I was a kid and I think it was a game between Derby and Leeds and there was a big fight and I think Norman Hunter was involved in the fight.

And he basically knocked somebody out. And I think it was Barry Davis said, this is just what we don't want to see. This is exactly what I want to see. Is there any game in the world that isn't improved by a fight? Yeah. I'm including badminton there. Well, you know, I thought the game was like two fellas in a flat roof pub fighting over the winnings of a fruit machine game.

With it ending in a bar brawl, wasn't it? With the guard of Seval involved. Yeah. Well, you know what? Those three guys at the back for Everton were very Robocop-worthy last night. Yeah, I mean, I can understand... I mean, I can understand why Decore has done what he's done. And I can understand why Evertonians are so happy. But I can also understand why Curtis Jones has reacted the way he has. You know, and I think...

Football is ultimately about moments, isn't it? It's not just about winning trophies. It is about moments. I don't want to sound like an Evertonian, but it is about moments. It's a big moment for Everton. It stops them from losing, having a worse record at Goodison than Liverpool, which is something that they'll never be able to change. So there is that. I think that is significant. I think that's been rattling around in a lot of minds over the last week.

But what I do think is, I just think Decore has made him self-target number one when Everton go to Anfield in a couple of months' time. And I think it will really fire Liverpool up for that derby. Not that they necessarily need firing up, but there will be an extra incentive to really do some damage to Everton at Anfield. Yeah, it'll be brilliant. I'm already looking forward to it. James?

I mean, when I haven't equalized, I could only laugh. But I thought to myself, this could have a really detrimental effect, you know, psychologically. But then Curtis Jones goes piling in and my whole mindset changed. You know, it's like suddenly a lot of the negative disappears. And I thought this will bind them. This will focus them. And this will make them really eager not to let this slip.

It should do. Yeah, yeah. I think that is important. It's probably more important for Slott and his staff and for the senior players than it is for supporters at large. But it is, I think, you know, I'm sure they'll be banging the drum about looking at the bigger picture. And as much as that hurt, and of course it did, because, you know, to concede in that fashion so late in the game.

But Liverpool are seven points clear at the top of the Premier League with 14 games to go. That is an incredible position to be in. And in fact, yes, Liverpool didn't win at Goodison, but it's not very often they do win at Goodison. I think that was the 10th draw in the last 13 league meetings there. And yeah, I don't have a problem with, you know, I think it is very difficult to criticise Liverpool.

Curtis Jones doing what he did because when emotions are running that high in that place especially with Curtis being a local lad and what Liverpool means to him you see Decore provoking things in the way he did and then of course it was you know

and Slot and Sipka Holschoff getting the other Reds after the final whistle for their protest to Michael Oliver. And again, I've got probably a bit of a, I feel a bit torn on, I thought Michael Oliver was really poor. I thought Virgil van Dijk was right when he came out and said that Oliver didn't have control of the game.

He was so erratic in terms of there was that period where he suddenly decided everything was a yellow card. And then he almost thought, hang on a minute, I can't go on like this. So then he completely kind of changed his approach. But I don't know what you two think about the so-called foul on Canarte, but...

I don't think that is a blunder. I don't think... I didn't... I watched that back three or four times and I'm still thinking... I think some refs probably give it, but I think a lot of refs don't. And I think Canate had to be stronger.

I think he's allowed himself to be nudged out of contention to win that ball far too easily. And then, of course, Liverpool still need to defend the ball coming into the box a lot better. And Van Dijk also was unhappy about the amount of added time. But I think when I watched stoppage time back late last night, there was that two-minute period where the game was held up after...

I think it was Alcaraz and Branthwaite had collided. So again, I think that's clutching at straws a little bit, saying that the game should have been, the final whistle should have been gone by then. I think there were other moments that they had a much bigger sense of injustice that would have been understandable with the one when Salah goes on that mazy run at the start of stoppage time and gets chopped down just outside the box. Oliver's right there and somehow completely misses that trip from Alcaraz.

And of course, Everton's opening goal came from a free kick, which shouldn't have been given when Ndai threw himself to the ground. But yeah, what did you two think of the Canarte one? Yeah, I agree, James. I don't think it was a foul on Canarte. He's got to be stronger in that situation, I think. I just didn't see a foul at all, if I'm being honest. That said, I thought Oliver...

And quite a strange game, really. He let things go too early, too long, early on, and then sort of clamped down in a way which made it unsustainable, I thought. Well, Tony, again, it was a bit of a throwback, really, because we're talking about the referee, not VAR. You know, actually talking about the way he handled the flow of the game. Yeah.

I mean, generally, I don't think he's a bad referee, actually. I mean, I know he's not the most popular, but I think generally he's all right. But on this game, it felt to me that...

He was attempting to clamp down before the game became too physical. So by extension, you're sort of saying, well, he's going to try and stop Everton from allowing the game to become as physical as it might be. But by clamping down, I think he made the game pettier and increased the frustration between the players and inside the stadium as well. You know, people were getting increasingly frustrated with

some of the decisions that he was making. And Lef, you know, the players responded to that by, you know, leaving one in a little bit, like sort of not going physical, but sort of just trying to be a little bit niggly and hoping that they got away with it. And I think that just contributed towards this bubbling of tension between the two sets of players, which results in the end with what happens. Obviously, that probably doesn't happen...

That doesn't happen if Everton don't equalise. I mean, James is right. I thought there was a foul on Salah. I thought, if I'm right in saying, he obviously had, there was a clash of heads with the two Everton players and he allowed them to carry on. They didn't go off the pitch. They just carried on on the pitch, which shouldn't have happened.

Is that right? No, apparently, I did check this rule. Apparently, if it's a collision between two players from the same team, they don't have to go off. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. So there's no, sorry, I'm not having a go at you here, James. Sounds like I'm going to, I'm going to load into you here, James. I didn't make the rules. Yeah, that has got to be one of those ridiculous rules. It's only transfers and team selection that is false. That's ridiculous.

That's got to be one of the most ridiculous rules ever because a head injury is a head injury regardless of how you've sustained it. I tell you what, when Everton players went down, they went down, didn't they? It was like, hang on, he's been down for an hour. Why didn't you get them off the pitch? The thing is, right, my sort of broader conclusion is this.

You know, we can moan about referee. I don't think the referee has a great performance. But I do think that too many Liverpool players didn't perform well enough on the night. I think a draw probably was on the balance of player fare results.

I thought, you know, I actually thought Slott got most of his substitutions right. You know, like sort of as the game went on, we might be able to have a debate about whether it was right to bring Jotter on. And you could have brought a more defensive mind to play. But I think obviously taking Gakpo off, taking Gravenberg off, they were the right decisions. You know, they weren't playing well. They were as poor as they'd been under Slott, I'd say. And I think he made those decisions right. But,

But generally speaking, it was down to Salah. You know, Salah being the man, again, you know, who...

who put Liverpool, you know, responded when Liverpool needed it and put Liverpool in the driving seat. The performance was disappointing, Tony, I thought, in terms of how Liverpool took care of the ball. I thought they weren't... They didn't take enough care of the ball. They never imposed themselves, did they? No. One thing I would say about Michael Oliver is there was no doubt that he was influenced by...

the absolute din around him. I think when you think about Everton were clearly the more physical and combative of the two sides. Yet,

I was shocked when I looked at the Opta stats that Oliver gave. He whistled for 29 fouls in the game and 20 of them were against Liverpool. Now, to me, that is a very strange statistic. Everton only gave away nine fouls to 20 when you look at the fact that their approach was very much to...

to unsettle Liverpool and to bully them, which I think you'd have to say they did a good job at.

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Now, on Tuesday, you two defeaters said a point would be good enough, and I disagreed. How do we feel now, Sy? How do we feel now about the title race? Well, if you strip the emotion back from it and look at it for what it is, I mean, I still think it's a decent point for Liverpool. I mean, obviously, you want to maintain the gap that you've got. Obviously, Liverpool have got...

Two big away games coming up. But I'd always fancied them at home to Wolves. I'd still always fancied them at Villa Park. So if you get those two wins, you then go into City with confidence. You know what I mean? Sort of the edge around that may have been created by the points dropped at Goodison goes away very quickly. So they've got a chance, a good chance to get three points on the board against Wolves.

And then you go into the Villa game with a bit more belief and confidence. So I thought it would be a draw before the game kicks off. Obviously, when you can see the late goal, it's disappointing. But as you said, Tony, I get what you're saying. I think, you know, the way the game finished with a big punch up,

It should bring all the players together. You know, there's a sort of a sense, a little bit of a sense of injustice. You know, Slott has almost taken some of the heat away from Jairus Jones by getting a red card himself. They're all in it together now. So it could go one way or the other, I guess. But, you know, Liverpool have had many, many draws at Goodison Park over the years. For me, it was like it was one of the best. It wasn't...

It wasn't the best game of football, but it was a game that I just couldn't take my eyes off. And what I loved about it, just sort of taking away any partisanship is, and I know you disagree with me on this, but you couldn't see what was coming next, really. It felt like all the goals happened in isolation and they were like quite sort of surprising moments, if you like. And that side of it, I really enjoyed the game. But I do think that Liverpool...

You know, you sort of think the last... When you can see the goal as late as that, if Liverpool face that situation again, what are they going to do? That's the only thing that you sort of worry about a little bit, I would say. Well, I mean...

For me, the game was everything that makes football great. You know, the chaos afterwards, you know, and the late equaliser. It was brilliant. I will disagree with you because I thought there was an inevitability about Everton equalised after that last stoppage. I'm like...

oh, you know, we'll get another three minutes here. And I thought, you know what? They're going to fluke one. They're going to fluke one. But again, James, I asked you the same question. Where do you think it leaves the title race?

Still in Liverpool's hands, still in a position of huge strength. Yeah, I think we said earlier on the week, didn't we, that I just didn't subscribe to this idea that, you know, I had people saying to me, oh, having done what he did against Plymouth, you have to now go and win at Goodison to justify that. And I was thinking, imagine if it is a draw, like seven points clear with 14 games to go.

Sometimes, despite the heartache of chucking two points away in that fashion, you do have to take a step back and go, hang on a minute. We would have bit everyone's hands off if we would have offered us this situation before the season. Yeah, it's beyond anyone's wildest expectations. And I also do think...

that there is a degree of people being scarred by the modern era when Liverpool have missed out on the title. Of course, it happened by a solitary point twice under Klopp and that feeling of almost like got to be perfect. But that's not

you know, that is not the case this season because there isn't the Man City juggernaut sticking together 14, 15 wins and breathing down your neck. I don't think being perfect is either...

you know, it's just, I just don't think it's realistic and it's not, it's not needed. It's, you know, you look at Arsenal and yeah, of course they'd have massively set that, that goal have been celebrated in the red part of North London as much as it was in the blue part of Merseyside. Will they have stopped moaning long enough to celebrate? Yeah,

But, well, I don't know where it leaves their idea that there's this conspiracy that's against them within the Premier League. I think football fans tie themselves up in knots, don't they? Because I was sat there listening to the Gladys Street chanting about the Premier League being corrupt last night. Yeah, there were no chants of corruption after that long VAR check led to the goal standing. So, yeah, I just...

Arsenal have got problems of their own, haven't they? Not buying an attacker in January and Havertz obviously now expected to miss the rest of the season with a hamstring injury. So yeah, I mean, the main thing, as I said before, is like slot just has to ensure that

any emotion that's left over from last night is channeled in the right way because you can't have Liverpool feeling sorry for themselves. You can't be dwelling on Wednesday night because the upcoming games are just too important. The thing to remember as well is, you know, they drew 2-2 at Newcastle.

with a relatively quite late equaliser from Newcastle when a team like Liverpool were in control. They drew with Manchester United 2-2. They drew with Forest. So they have drawn and responded to those draws pretty well this season. So it is a position that they've been in this season and they've managed to find a way out. A lot of people seem to think

seem to forget, you know, that there's every chance that the teams chasing them will drop points. Of course, of course. At some point. And as James says there, I mean, the memories are still fresh of just having these battles with City where it did feel like, you know, dropping points had a terminal impact on the season's prospects. It's not quite that way this year, I think. The only thing...

could be Liverpool's undoing if they just sort of have their own internal collapse at this stage. The performance didn't give me any reason to believe that was around the corner. I just think with Salah playing the way he is, I know we're going to get on to him at the moment, I just think as long as he stays fit, Liverpool can beat anyone really. But he needs to play a bit better than he did against Everton, just a bit more intensity and

The disappointment for me is they've been so good in midfield. I just didn't think they'd control that area of the pitch as much as they would have liked. Two of the three midfielders never go into it. Yeah, you're right. McAllister I thought had a very good game, but the other two, not so. Jones and Salah for all Everton's pressure for walking at the door.

It's Mo Salah who has the decisive word with his 22nd goal of another prolific season. Remember, here on Walk On, we want to hear your thoughts on the pod. Your questions, queries and even voice notes. Send them all to walkonattheathletic.com. That's walkonattheathletic.com. Well, I would love to hear what you think about Salah because we love him.

James, what more can we say about him? We're going to say loads. That's a really bad thing to say in a podcast, isn't it? What more can we say about him? We can't say any more. That's the end of the podcast, people. Of course we're going to talk about him. We're going to laud him. We're going to praise him. We're going to say the same things we've said over and over again. But you know what? We'd like to, and that...

Yeah, he once again, wasn't he? He was, I mean, on the night, he was the only one really who packed a real punch going forward. I was really disappointed with both Gagpo and Diaz. Diaz was dreadful. Yeah, but then I thought Diaz was very, very lucky,

to start the game considering how poor he was at Plymouth. And I know Darwin Nunes has missed a few training sessions recently following the birth of his child. And I wonder whether that

to slot's decision because I thought Nunes would have made more sense against Everton. Diaz just had absolutely no impact on that game whatsoever. And Gagpo has been in decent form. He was one of those ones, Gagpo, that I was looking at and thinking, well, surely this is made for him to kind of step up and prove

prove what a big game player he is now but it never happened James James sorry it reminds me of his performances last season didn't it

Yeah, it just seemed to pass him by. Yeah, he just seemed to lack confidence and decisiveness. When he's the opposite of that, he looks unstoppable, doesn't he? But he was a pale sort of version of himself. He drifts us wide too often, and it's almost as if he didn't want to get involved in the fray. Yeah, I think Gagpo Diaz and Chuck Higgins, the boss like,

Now they only had one attempt on target between the three of them. That their XG between them was 0.08.

which just underlines it, doesn't it? And you know what? They're entitled to a poor performance because they've all been playing so well. And I suppose if you're going to have a bad night, you kind of understand that it'll happen in a place like Goodison in a game where the mayhem around you is like that. So, I mean, I don't think we should be too harsh on them, but yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you've got to call up for where it is. I mean, yeah. I mean, on Salah, I mean, I was looking before. He's either scored or assisted 62% of Liverpool's Premier League goals so far this season, which is just absolutely phenomenal, isn't it? When you think, you know, 22 goals, 14 assists.

out of the 58 that Liverpool have scored in the league. I think that was the 40th top flight game where he's both scored and assisted in the same one. Only one now behind Steven Gerrard's record of nine goals in Merseyside derby. He's only one behind Steve McManaman's club record of 15 league assists in the same one.

in a season in the Premier League era. So, yeah, so much of what was decent about Liverpool on the night and there wasn't a huge amount to pick from went to

Went through him, which, you know, it just, again, fuels that wider conversation of like, how can you possibly even think about allowing him to walk out the door at the end of the season? Because the void would be absolutely huge for all the talk of like, you know, Liverpool have got six attackers and he's able to rotate and all the rest of it.

They might have six attackers, but there's one of them who's in a whole class of his own. Sorry, didn't you write a book about Sala called Chasing Sala, which is available to all good booksellers and some really bad ones as well?

That's correct, Tony. I'd just like to, before we get on to Sal, just make a point about the selection of the forward line. And I was trying to figure out why Slott may have done this. Obviously, you never really got, you never really explained. Well, certainly not post-match. I didn't see the interviews pre-match. But, you know, looking at the way Everton played, particularly with the two slash three Robocops at the back.

I wonder whether Slot felt that if you go big for big, it becomes that battle then, doesn't it? You know, if you go Nunes up against the two, you know, it becomes a physical fist fight almost. Whereas if you go with Diaz and get them pulling them into different positions potentially that they don't want to be in, then...

You get to play, there's an increasing chance you get to play a Liverpool style game more than an Everton style game. Do you know what I mean? Obviously it didn't quite work out, did it? I mean, I actually didn't think Diaz's performance was that bad. I thought he was better when Gakpo went off and he switched to the left. He got involved in the play a little bit more. Up to the middle, I don't think he was very good.

actually the other thing I've got to say I do think you know Branthwaite is a very very good player as well I think he's far too good for Everton and sooner or later a good club or a team competing right at the top of the Premier League like Liverpool should try and sign him but that's an aside that's an aside but

But Salah, it was just another majestic performance. Nothing affected him. Despite all the noise, despite the hair and skin style of football, he always seemed to have time in possession. He made things happen.

It was, I would say, he didn't do loads on the... But what he did do was some of his best playing Liverpool shares, I would argue, you know, in that game. You know, I was watching on television and the commentary team were saying, oh, you know, he hasn't been involved. Well, he set up the first goal and then he scored the second goal. But I always remember, like, when I was a kid, I had a match with my old fella and Toschak scored two and...

I come out and I said, Toshek was terrible. I said, like, he did nothing. And my half-brother's like, he scored two goals. We won 2-0. And I'm going, yeah, but he did nothing else. And my half-brother's like, you little idiot. You know, one of them, like, I mean, what were you supposed to do? I remember when Guardiola didn't want to play Aguero because he didn't press hard enough. Pepe!

Pep, what's going on in your mind? He scores goals, he changes games, and that's what Salah does, James. And I don't care if he has hardly any touches. I don't care if he doesn't seem to be in the game. Both goals were largely down to him. They were, yeah. And with the equaliser, which I thought was a brilliant header from Alexis McAllister, and I think Simon's right that he was...

one of the few Liverpool players on the night to really do himself justice, McAllister. But again, it's the quality of the delivery. And that side of Salah's game has come on so much in the last few years. I mean, he doesn't have that same absolutely exhilarating burst of pace that he once had. Of course he doesn't. But his awareness...

of everything that's going on around him and the ability to pick teammates out is almost unmatched. And then, you know, the...

You just wouldn't have wanted that chance to have fallen to anyone else on the pitch, would you, for his goal? I thought it was decent work from Curtis Jones and Darwin Nunes, the substitutes, to fashion the opportunity. But yeah, when that defensive header out dropped to Salah, there was just an inevitability, wasn't there, about what was going to follow. But yeah, the big frustration for me was that watching it,

And pretty much throughout, I just thought Liverpool have allowed this to be the game that Everton wanted it to be. Like, you know, I was hoping that Liverpool would like inevitably kind of have to weather a bit of an early storm. And then you'd see the golfing quality between the two teams and everything.

you looked at the two benches and you thought, you know, that it was a mismatch in terms of the options the managers had available to change things. But I just think Liverpool just got drawn into it, didn't they? It was like so frenetic, scrappy, you know,

you know, no real flow or momentum to the game. And, and, and, you know, despite having so much of the ball, 63%, you know, they, Everton actually had more attempts on goal than Liverpool. They had Everton edged it on XG as well in the 0.98 to 0.65. So it was, you've mentioned XG twice in the podcast, you know, you know, I'm banning that.

Once, perhaps, yeah. Is that second yellow? That is, that is. Go on, Son, you're off. But I just think those numbers just underline the fact that Liverpool were miles off it. And...

And I think it's important not to lose sight of that. That yes, the kind of, of course what happened at the end hurt and it feels like a defeat when you concede so late in that fashion. But also, I think if you're being brutally honest...

a win would have hugely flattered Liverpool. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And sorry, I was going to say, I've seen better Liverpool teams drawn into performances like that by worse Everton sides. But probably there hasn't been many better Liverpool teams and there probably hasn't been many worse Everton sides. The reality is it happens in derbies. This is the thing, Tony, and it's increasingly hard to make...

People understand that, I think, because, you know, you see the league table and Liverpool are 30 points, I think, above Everton. But throughout time, it has tended to mean when a derby comes around that it is a massive, massive cliche. But the form and the positions in the league just don't matter. And a lot of that is because of the, you know, the feeling that's inside the ground. And again, you know, you can't put a measurement on...

on the impact of the crowd. Just the same you can't at Anfield, you can't at Goodison. When it's at its best, it can influence the referee, it can influence the players, it can make them do things slightly differently. You know, football, it can't be measured by data, that one. James can't put an XG or something, some sort of metric on crowd noise and aggression.

Just leave it with me. Well, I mean, actually, it's X-rays as it goes sometimes. And it's hard because increasingly, you know, a lot of people might watch the game through the prism of a television and you don't necessarily feel that through the television. So when you're there, though, and you feel it, and there's this sort of feeling in the air,

Football just becomes very easy or very hard according to what is going on inside the stadium. And I've seen great Liverpool teams struggle at Goodison Park for all sorts of different reasons. I've also seen them flatten Everton as well on occasions when they have won there on the occasions over the last 10-15 years. They've tended to win quite convincingly, but it's difficult getting there. It is difficult.

And it does come down to sort of the feeling and the locality and what that does to people and how they react. I mean, we've seen already, we've seen already, Tony, how, you know, we've been saying all season, we haven't really seen another side of slot. He's just been sent off in the derby. It's first good to send derby. You know, he's obviously lost his cool there. Maybe said something that he shouldn't have done or shook the referee's hand a little bit too vigorously, perhaps.

but it shows you, you know, that football does have the capacity to make people do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do. And I think that's a good thing. No, it happens at Anfield. It happens at Anfield all the time. There's no reason why it happens again. Not all the time. It happens sometimes. And when, when it does happen, it's difficult to quantify. And you say, you hear other fans saying, Oh, well, it wasn't like that when I was there following, you know, Wolverhampton Wanderers or, you know, I don't know, Leicester city, but it is like, it, it,

it can be like that. And when it is like that, it's very difficult.

to resist him. Yeah, and well, I mean, you look at Decore, you know, he's not a scouser. You know, look at the, you know, he never grew up with us. He doesn't have that inbuilt, you know, sort of sense of rivalry. But he acted like that. You know, you can see why Curtis Jones said, that's what football does for you. And that's why it's great. Yes, don't tame it. Don't try and tame this. Don't try and tame it. That's the way it should be. Do you think Decore will be on the cover of the DVD? Yeah.

He's bound to be, you know, and like, you know, the cover of the DVD, there'll be three Everton players trying to beat up Jones. You know, it's, just to clarify, Jones was given a second yellow, so he only misses one game, which I tell you what, to miss one game, you know, they all should have done it. Can I ask you a question though? Can't I?

Can't that be extended for violent conduct? I don't know. I mean, James seems to be the voice of officialdom today. So go on, James. Well, I think it will depend what's in the referee's report, whether he deems that he saw what went on and that the second yellow was sufficient. Because I think we're waiting to find out exactly as well whether Slot and Hulshof were both expecting both of them to be banned from the touchline for the weekend. Yeah.

But of course, until you find out exactly what they've been accused of doing after the final whistle, you don't know the extent of those punishments. Of course, with Slott as well, I guess it will be factored in the fact that he's already had one touchline ban this season for having three yellow cards, if you remember rightly. Of course, yes. Maybe I lost his clue.

This is his second, this will be his kind of second touchline ban. So yeah, it could be a big day for Johnny Heitinger when Wolves come to town on Sunday with Mighty Red as his number two. Can you imagine if they wheeled Johnny Heitinger out of Goodison Park as a Liverpool spokesman? I mean, can you imagine how that would have gone down? Yeah, yeah. I did wonder whether that might be where we were heading last night when I was, I didn't actually, I didn't, most of me, I didn't know that rule that,

if you're sent off, you can't do the post-match media duties. Seems slightly bizarre to me. So, yeah. They're the people you want to speak to. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but like, the authorities don't hear what they've got to say at that point, do they? There is a question for you. Was it a better fight than Sander Vestervaal against Franny Jeffers? Yeah.

No, it felt like that was a bit, that had a bit more oomph to it in terms of, I think modern day football fights, there's a lot of grappling in there. Yeah. Because the days of being able to leave one on someone and even think about getting away with it are just so long gone, aren't they? Well, this is the thing, I was discussing this with a couple of friends this morning and I...

Sometimes you see a lot of this sort of, you know, come on, let's have it sort of attitude, you know, where nothing happens. But that actually was as close to a proper fight as you're going to see on an elite level football pitch. I think that's why it was like actually quite shocking. You know, you just don't expect it. Again, you didn't expect it to happen. It happened so quickly. And what separated it, of course, from the Westerwelle and Jeffers match,

fight, which I think was it 99 Everton's last before winning the derby at Anfield in 2021. It was the last victory at Anfield in 99. It was just two of them basically throwing digs at each other in the middle of the pitch, wasn't it? It was a bit weird. I mean, the other one that I could think of was Bruce Grobbelaar against Steve McManaman. Yes. And they turned on each other. Yeah. But there haven't been many, have there? But that was as close as you're going to get. I mean...

You know, if that had happened on a Sunday league pitch in Liverpool, people would be talking about it, I think. You know, there would have been red cards. It was a proper... Oh, there'll definitely be FA charges, won't there? They always use the same phrase. Failure to control the place. Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably the definition of... I don't even know how... I mean, it always makes me laugh as if, like,

If there's like some kind of remote control that you could have like, you know, what could Liverpool have done more to control that situation? But it's, but yeah, it'll be, there'll be, I'm sure there'll be a financial penalty as well as the bans for Jones and Slott and Holschoff that follow. I mean, Holschoff was a funny one because I, because I mean, fair play to Van Dijk because he seemed to be the only one that retained his cool mentality.

amidst that mayhem. And he actually went and grabbed Hulshov

and pulled him away from Michael Oliver, which I thought had probably saved Holschoff from a red card. But he obviously had another pop at him after that to warrant the fourth red card of that frenzy. You know what made me laugh as well? And it's something I've often thought about, is, you know, the stewards of Goodison Park, have you noticed the way...

Like, about five minutes before the end of the game, they always sort of go to their positions and lie almost seductively facing the fans. LAUGHTER

Almost seductively. You watch them, they sort of casually... Almost seductively. Like they're on a sunbed somewhere, Tony, watching beautiful people walk across a pool. That's what they do. And I always used to think, what actually happens here if somebody... Whatever floats your boat. What actually happens here if somebody runs onto the pitch or something happens? You're not best prepared if you're lying there seductively, are you? Yeah.

So, okay. I think that's a separate podcast, actually. It does feel like... Goodison's seductive stewards. And why aren't our stewards seductive? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, I recommend, before Goodison goes, watch the stewards as they lie on their sun lounges. Kinky! Yeah. We better move on to Wolves. I'm...

Yeah, I mean, in this sequence of games, this is the most straightforward. Let's be brutally honest about that. And, you know, where I think it is fair to say, well, you know, a draw at Goodison, you know, come on, it's not a disaster, blah, blah, blah. Wolves at home have to be swept aside. You have to come out on Sunday and

You can't have a situation where anyone is feeling sorry for themselves or moping around or dwelling on Goodison in midweek. You have to come out and deliver. You know, Wolves are a tougher nut to crack now than they were a few months ago. I think Pereira has done a decent job since he's been in there. Yeah, they're still in relegation trouble. I think they're only a couple of points above the drop zone. But you look at the quality that Wolves have got, I think,

I'd still back them to finish outside of the bottom three. It felt pretty big for them keeping old Kunja in the January window. I think he's a proper threat who I'd be amazed if he was still there next season. But yeah, it's Liverpool at home, isn't it? You need to...

you need to ensure that that late goal proved as much to themselves as much as Arsenal and whoever else is gleefully waiting for Liverpool to stumble, that that has had no adverse implications in terms of this title challenge. I think it makes sense for Slot to freshen it up somewhat. I think...

I think, you know, Alexander-Arnold obviously came off the bench last night. You'd imagine he'd come in and start. You wonder whether he might go for Simakas at left back. Maybe Nunes and Jota could potentially come in as well. But, yeah,

But yeah, it feels big Sunday because you just want a bit of a reset. You want Liverpool to go out there. You want them to win. You want them to do it in some style as well, I think. Especially having produced such a pretty meagre performance against Everton. Yeah, I mean, it was a bit of a grind in September. Molineux...

when they beat Wolves 2-1. You know, but at home, they've won the last seven home meetings with them. The last time, you know, because Wolves got anything was in the bad days of Roy Hodgson. We haven't spoken about my mate Roy for a while, have we? I remember that night. That was in between Christmas and New Year, wasn't it?

2010-11. It was like, I think Stephen Ward scored at the Anfield Road end. And it just felt like, well, somebody just turned the lights off. That's how it felt. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's not talk about that. But yeah, I mean, what do you think? Do you think it's time to end the Diaz through the middle experiments? Well, I mean, the thing about Wolves is I always expect it to be a tough game. You know, it has been since they've been in the Premier League. You go back to...

When Nuno Espirito Santo was manager, always a tough game, home and away. And even the last couple of years where they haven't done as well in the league, still a tough game. But I always expect Liverpool to win and get there eventually. So my view hasn't really changed on that one. Diaz through the middle.

I mean, it obviously hasn't worked quite as well the last sort of six weeks or so, has it? It feels to me it works a bit better in Europe than it might do in the Premier League. Yeah, I would go with Jota, actually. I mean, I started the season by saying if Jota gets 15-20, it gives Liverpool a great chance of winning it. And he started the season really well, but picked up another injury, didn't he? So...

I don't think Jota now is a player who you can play off the left. I know he arrived at Liverpool as a player who at Wolves did play off the left quite a bit, but then sort of transitioned to more of a centre-forward, out-and-out centre-forward at Liverpool. The thing that I like about Jota is, obviously, he's not the biggest, but he does physically test defenders who he's up against. And his movement is excellent and his finishing is excellent.

So I think in that sort of game against Wolves, I think it'd suit him actually. So for me, Jota through the middle, the big decision would be off the left, whether you go with Diaz or Gakpo. Might be a bit harsh on Gakpo after one particularly poor game, but when it comes down to it, I do think that Diaz is slightly more effective than him or has proven himself as more consistently effective than him over a longer period of time.

James, how do you see them lining up? Yeah, similar. Like I said, I think he will probably freshen it up with maybe changes at full-back. In the front line, I think he probably won't see changes in midfield with Jones' suspension.

So yeah, Sunday is now big, isn't it? Because you'd expect by that point the gap to be down to four points. Everyone would expect Arsenal, despite some of their injury issues, to beat Leicester on Saturday. So Liverpool have to go out there and respond and prove that all of those rubbing their hands in delight...

thinking that what happened late on at Goodison was the start of a decisive turn in the title race are mistaken. Yeah, there are big questions to be answered at Anfield on Sunday.

Can Liverpool get back on track? Will our stewards be as seductive as Everton's? So that's it from Walk On, your Liverpool podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Thanks to James and Simon for joining me and you for listening. Before we go, I want to tell you about Connections, sports edition, a new game for sports fans from The Athletic. It's basically a daily dose of trivia. It's satisfying to solve and let me tell you, it's very addictive. Play now at theathletic.com forward slash connections. We'll be back on Tuesday. We'll catch you then.

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