What makes the Merseyside derby so special?
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Well, the Derby's nearly here. A chance for a payback after the madness of Goodison. Well, we've got loads to talk about, but first, let's have your three words.

Si, I'll come to you first. Right, I'm going to sound like James Pearce. Football is back! Oh, he's got a sunny disposition on him today. Oh dear, oh dear. We know that's going to go wrong, James. What are your three? Make them pay. I like that. I do like that. I do like that. Well, look, here's what you're saying. Joe Davis, back to business. Jason Bush, winning removes distractions. Nasser Kalaji, don't forget to corey.

And Caleb Jenkins, we're finally back. To join our community of listeners on Facebook, just search Walk On Podcast and join the group. Well, derby week.

It's a big one. It's a big one, James. You wrote about on Monday, you said plans are in place for next season. Are pre-season plans are being confirmed? You're on a pre-season tour of Japan. How do you feel about Japanese food? I love it. Absolutely love it. Cannot wait. Yeah. Yeah, never been to Japan before actually. Been all over Asia with Liverpool over the past probably 15 years and Hong Kong, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore.

So yeah, it's going to be a good trip, hopefully. Obviously, they've announced the first game will be against AC Milan in Hong Kong on July the 26th. There's a new 50,000-all-seater stadium opening up. There's some of the Kai Tak Stadium. And then the second leg will be in Japan. The details of that are still to be confirmed. But yeah, obviously, that's closely aligned to the deal the club have got with Japan Airlines.

and the fact that you've got the national team captain in Wataru Endo I'm sure that plays a part as well yeah Hong Kong as well it's great the last time I was there I got shot with a tear gas canister so Duncan

Don't get into any trouble, James. What did you... Come on, you can't just leave us with that. Was it just an angry Evertonian? Yeah. No, I was over in Dao Yan to interview Rafa Benitez and spend a week with him. So on the way back, I went to Shanghai, saw his team get beat in Shanghai, and then I went to Hong Kong to write about the trouble that was there, the rioting on the civil disorder. And Rafa foolishly said,

spoke to me about it in his hotel room. And the next morning, one of the senior officials in the club come up to him and said, your friend's not going to Hong Kong to write about the demonstrators, is he? So he was like, oh, you know, obviously they were listening to him everywhere he was. So anyway, so I went to Hong Kong, interviewed some people, and on the last night, I was walking back, and the police blocked the roads. So, yeah.

I just crossed the road they tried to keep me back they crossed the road it got about 20 yards 30 yards and I felt something whack me on the back of the calf and I thought it was a policeman hitting me with his baton because I've been hit by battons by policemen before because I followed football abroad and it's

It turns out it was a gas canister. It was spinning on the floor. And all the locals come out, give me some water to rinse my eyes out and some saline solution. And then later on that night, full-scale riot and broke out all over the place. So, yeah, it turns out to be a good story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's longer than one of James's answers. That's very simple questions, but never mind. Yeah, well, yes, me. I mean, you know. You either want it or you don't, Simon. There was a football that happened. Because, you know, as I say, it was the...

initially to see Rafa Benitez but let's who was in fact an effort manager at one point the thing is Tony it sounds like you're blaming Rafa a little bit there I reckon every single argument about Liverpool you will see Rafa Benitez feature somewhere in that argument well you know how highly I think I know but yeah it's a I wanted to ask you what you make about this these reports over the weekends of Fenway Sports Group and

stepping up their interest and adding another European club to the portfolio, Malaga? Yeah. I'm not surprised it's a club with the potential of Malaga. Obviously Malaga, not so long ago, were a Champions League team, albeit quite briefly, to be fair. I remember they ran Jürgen Klopp's Borussia Dortmund very close in the Champions League because it was the game where Klopp came out after the game and was just sort of

very much in love with the football that he'd just seen. I remember it was the first time I actually thought he'd be good for Liverpool and he'd be really, really good because he spoke so enthusiastically just about the match itself. I cannot describe what happened inside me. It's not good for... I think I have to show it to the doctor but it was really crazy and it was like a championship. It's not a championship but it felt like. But Malaga have had a really bad 10 years really due to the ownership situation but it's a club with huge potential players

in a very good location in terms of how FSG might be thinking in a league where FSG might be able to bring players in, get them accustomed to European football in a nice, warm environment. The bottom line is it's a club that suits FSG and Liverpool as well for all sorts of different reasons.

They obviously looked at another distressed club in Bordeaux. I thought that they might be looking in Portugal as well.

But based on the information, certainly me and James were given last year, Malaga fits the profile of a club in a relevant region with good transport connections that can be built up, that is now going to be playing in a stadium or soon to be playing in a stadium that might be built for the 2030 World Cup. So lots of potential upside, I would say, to them. I mean, I can see lots of reasons why they'd do it. It's a great location because actually,

turns into one of those tourist club destinations. And, of course, the food's brilliant there, James, but the whole multi-club model leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, I can understand that. You know, there has been well-publicised kind of flashpoints, hasn't there, in recent years of clubs that are part of, like, a multi-club set-up, their fans understandably kicking off when they feel as if they are the...

poor relative, if you like, and they're left to feed off the scraps and essentially are there mainly to help develop a bigger name higher up the food chain. So I just think it's inevitable. This is the way, you know, football has been going. I think, you know, I can understand the opposition to it, but I think half the Premier League already have, you know, close-knit relationships with other clubs in Europe and

Liverpool and FSG are quite late to the party in terms of joining up with a model like this. And I just think the benefits are clear. When Michael Edwards came back, it was just over a year ago, it was there in black and white in the press release that for him, he didn't want his old job back.

What attracted him was one, obviously having a complete responsibility for the running of the football side of FSG, but also FSG saying to him, yes, we want you to go and buy and run a second club. And Mike Gordon emailed all club staff at Liverpool at the time and basically said, this will help not hinder Liverpool as a club, I can guarantee going forward. And post-Brexit, the fact that Premier League clubs now can't sign anyone under the age of 18, you know, that...

leads to a benefit if you've got you know say they did buy Malaga you

you could sign someone and leave them there at Malaga until they turn 18 and then they come to Liverpool. If you've got someone you really like who's not going to be able to get a work permit to play in England, they can play at Malaga and potentially then build up the experience needed to be able to get the points required to then get a work permit. Even with the young players you've already got at Liverpool, yes, Liverpool can use the loan system currently available

And you look at people like Owen Beck and Ben Doak and people like that who have kicked on this season. But obviously, if you actually own the other club you're sending young players to, then you've got a lot more control in terms of their game time and their progression. And chances are the style between the different teams is,

is almost identical. And then I think just Malaga, when you look at them, Simon touched upon there, they were Champions League quarter-finalists 12 years ago. They've got a good academy, they've got a new training complex, there's the promise of a new stadium for the 2030 World Cup, huge fan base. I think at the minute, probably the biggest complexity is around the legal issues surrounding the

the current ownership because that's what FSG are going to have to try and get around if they're going to end up buying the club. Yeah, but Si, that's one of the things. I mean, say they get in the Champions League again, say they get to the quarterfinals and say they draw Liverpool in the quarterfinals. I mean, isn't that just everything about it wrong? Doesn't it smell? I can understand why it all makes sense for all the reasons that James has mentioned there and some of the reasons that I mentioned before that.

It all makes sense within the rules in terms of morals and in terms of identity. It's something that I just really don't like. I don't like these football clubs get passed around. One football club should never really be considered more important than any other football club, I think. It's all about the feeling of the people who support those clubs, not the people that own them.

I think certainly in the Premier League, Manchester United were the first ones to sort of make this break. You know, they had a relationship with Antwerp about 20, 25 years ago where they were farming players out. It didn't really work. I mean, one or two players did make it into the first team at United, didn't they, I think, and had decent careers. But I mean, that was a slightly different situation where they were sending younger academy players out to Belgium to play and

I suppose the global situation has changed now. I sense that I'd be surprised if Liverpool did much of that. I suspect that it might be more on the side of recruitment, you know, for players coming in from South America, for example. I remember I was told a story about how Liverpool were very interested in signing Rodrigo before he went to Real Madrid. Obviously, it's Real Madrid, so it's a big... They have a big pull anyway. Truly, I didn't hear that. I mean...

Yeah, yeah. Well, the point that I was going to make was, though, that I think Liverpool felt like they couldn't get Rodrigo in because they didn't have this sort of option to go and play him in La Liga or the Spanish second division. I'm not too sure what league they were in at the time, Malaga. But yeah, I mean, is it something that I'm excited about as a person or a fan? No, it's something that I don't like. Does it make sense on a business level?

Does it make sense on a strategic level? Well, yes, it does because every other football club's doing that now. Or every other ownership group, should I say. So, yeah, I'm not surprised by the development, but I think a lot has to happen for Liverpool to get to that point. Oh, sorry, keep saying Liverpool. FSG, a lot has to happen before they reach that point because it seems like, you know, QSI and the Qatari owners of PSG are very interested as well.

And as James says, the owner of Malaga has been in place for some time, had plenty of offers in the past and has just refused to sell basically. So,

I don't think it's by any means a done deal, just as Bordeaux wasn't and Liverpool pulled out of that situation when they realised it just wasn't going to work out. I keep on saying Liverpool, don't I? I've already started doing that. It's FSG, obviously, that are doing this. But Liverpool could be the beneficiaries of this.

I've been quite surprised really the lack of reaction. You know, well, FSG at the moment, you know, they've got three big bloody contracts to sort out, but they're too busy signing deals to buy other clubs and increasing the portfolio. So,

But it's something that's been in the pipeline for some time and a big part of why Michael Edwards returned to the FSG fold. And it must be stressed, the FSG fold, not the LFC fold, even though he is the one who has the keys to Liverpool's finances. Michael Edwards playing global 3D chess. Let's build a statue.

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Remember, if you want to get in touch with us and even feature on the pod, email us at walkonattheathletic.com. And if you send us a voice note, you've got an even better chance of featuring. So let's see what we've got today. Hello, everyone at Walk On. My name is Anant from Seattle. I grew up in a few different places, Bangkok, Singapore, Shanghai, to name a few. And I grew up in a few different places,

My question comes from being an international fan. You know, being a fan in the mid-2000s didn't give us a lot to celebrate in terms of winning many trophies. And it was evident in these places that I grew up that there were more Chelsea, Arsenal, and especially Manchester United fans. I despise all of their successes. The rivalry between Liverpool and United fans was palpable.

So many of my close friends were United fans and still are. There were people wearing Everton shirts too in Bangkok, but I think it had more to do with the Changbeer sponsors than actually being an Everton fan. I mean, who in their right mind would be an Evertonian? My question is, does it really feel like there is a hatred for Everton? I think a lot of the international fans don't feel the hatred of Everton as much as Man United, but I think it's a very strong hatred.

After a win against Everton, I forget about it by the following week. But boy, do I still think about all those sweet victories against United. Anyways, love the pod and the work you guys do. And James, if you ever make it to Seattle, I'd love to invite you to a pickup game. I'll make sure to have a sign ready to direct you to the right pitch.

Where's my invoice? Where's my invoice? Well, no, he doesn't need to invite you because... He's probably seen you play football before. Oh, that's not what I should use. No, no, I'm told he's been out and bought a copy of Chasing the Salad by Simon Hughes, which is available at all good bookshops. Well, thank you.

And that was excellent. I particularly liked the line, who in their right mind would support Everton? And I think what it's heard for an international fan to understand

understand, sorry, he talked about hatred. You can understand that. But what you can understand is how divided the city of Liverpool is and the split isn't in districts or religion or, you know, it's within families and it's hard to hate your mates, your families, your

but it's brilliant to beat them yeah that that's pretty much it i mean i i hatred is definitely the wrong words um i think there's i think the rivalry has changed for all sorts of historical reasons it has become more toxic more toxic than it than it was than i remembered it being when i was younger but um i think things have changed i mean i remember when i was growing up

families would be divided between Liverpoolians and Evertonians. And I think the reason why was, you know, there were a lot of big Liverpool families, you know, in terms of people had lots of kids, you know, it was a big Catholic Protestant area. The biggest family in the school I went to, and obviously I'm older than you, but like 17 kids, but 12, 13 was not unusual. Yeah. And that has changed. So what used to happen was,

you know, you'd have big families with lots of different kids and almost in spite of each other, one would support one team and the other one, you know, another one would support another team. It didn't just flow as in, you know, you're a Liverpool family, you're an Everton family. I think now that is increasingly the case. You know, there's more of a divide of, well, if your dad supports Liverpool, the son or the daughter is more likely to support Liverpool. And,

and so on. So I think things have sort of gone down that route now. You know, obviously people don't have as big of families now as well. So that contributes towards it. So I think in the past, you know, blood is thicker than water, Tony, and families would set aside their differences over football if they existed because they were ultimately family. But also sometimes families do break up, don't they? And it could be over football sometimes.

I've seen quite a lot of that over the years. Yeah, yeah. Well, it does feel like now that things are slightly more on certain lines. I mean, the city, Liverpool's geography, as you say, isn't Liverpool areas, Everton areas. Although I would say there are probably more Evertonians in the north end of Liverpool, certainly in the Bootle. Bootle's always had a reputation of being...

Everton, because it's very close to Walton, you know, but then even in Walton, the streets around Walton, where Goodison Park is and Anfield is, there's lots of Liverpoolians and Evertonians in those areas. I'd say that demographics change as well, because when I was a kid, so growing up in the 60s, around us, you know, around Scotland Road, between Scotland and Vauxhall Road, there was, I'd say, 60-65% were Evertonians, but Everton had traditionally been the successful club, and now...

I'd say, when I go home, I'd say it's the other way, 65-70% are Liverpudlians. And success does that and shifts the dynamic. Yeah, well, to answer the question, the bottom line is we do live amongst one another. In this city... Evertonians live amongst... In this city, it tends to be that you support either Liverpool or Everton.

It's not like a big city like London where everyone's mixed in. You might support other clubs from other cities, I suppose.

So when you're confronted by the rival team on a daily basis, and as you said, I mean, I've said lots of times, my group of mates, it's 50-50 Liverpool and Everton. And for that reason, you're desperate to beat Everton or Liverpool. You're desperate because you know that if one team wins and the other team loses, it's going to cause you some degree of frustration throughout the course of the week because you're going to be reminded of it. I think...

the Man United thing is, it leans more towards hatred because we don't live around each other as much. Although there's a big crossover between both cities in terms of Mancunians working in Liverpool and Liverpoolians working in Manchester. that's something, again, that's changed. That has more of a new thing, isn't it? I would say. Yeah.

because, you know, certainly certain parts that there's been more work in Manchester for Liverpoolians to go across, you know, go across and work there. When I was growing up, the only time you had a Mancunian accent was when you played them. Yeah, yeah. So now, yeah, hatred's just too strong a word. It's just, it's not the right word, I think. It's just, it's victoriolic at times, can be quite toxic, can be quite nasty sometimes.

But hatred, that's another level altogether. I don't think that really exists. I mean, as I say, we all go out drinking together. I don't know any single person, maybe only a very small number of people who might choose their friends based upon who they support, but...

Yeah, I mean, I best not reveal their names. James, I mean, it sounds like Anant's lived in loads of places where you've feasted over the years. But does his point of view tally with all the international fans that you've met on your culinary expeditions? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've been lucky enough to,

to kind of spend time with Liverpool fans, well, probably all across America and five or six different tours. And then you think a couple of tours to Australia, you think of the passion and dedication of people like that. You know, I was there in the MCG in Melbourne for 95,000 singing You Never Walk Alone and all the various stop-offs around Asia that we mentioned earlier. So, but yeah, I think it is, I think a lot of it is to do with

the generation of supporter you are as well because I think I think inevitably if you're if you're probably under the age of say 40 you know no matter really where you live why would Everton be the biggest game for you you know certainly if you didn't if you didn't

grow up in this city because Everton haven't been massively relevant have they to Liverpool in terms of like you know of course you know that there regardless of where you live in the world you know that there's an importance attached to it you know the history and tradition but certainly for me my early memories of the of the the mid 80s when of course you're talking about

Not just the two best teams in England, but probably the two best teams in Europe at that time. But for those who are younger than me and you think of the 90s and the 2000s, of course, Manchester United, that fixtures on a whole different level. I completely get that. And then you think of the more modern rivalries, especially that period with Mourinho's Chelsea and obviously Guardiola's Manchester City. Yeah, I can completely understand that.

where he's coming from. I think even for my son, who's 12 and obviously goes to school in the city, for him, if you asked him, he would say undoubtedly playing Man United is a bigger game than playing Everton. I just think that's a reflection on where the two clubs are at. Well, thanks for that. And remember, if you want to get a voice note on, ask us any questions, email walkon at theathletic.com.

Right, the Derby. Si, you've written an interesting piece for once. No, no, that's, that's, that's, Si's, Si's very good and he's one of the reasons you should subscribe to The Athletic. Well said. But you've, but you've written about this idea that was once floating around of a dual stadium in Stanley Park. Yeah, yeah. I mean, not just a dual stadium, not a shared stadium, but like,

two stadiums yeah and joined so i should try and probably explain to listeners so they can almost visualize it and explain the context behind behind the idea so 2009-10 liverpool were trying to move into into stanley park and i'd had approval to go there but the move hadn't come about because of the failings of the owners at the time meanwhile everton

I'd been knocked back from moving into Kirby following an inquiry, which led to the government stopping the move. So both clubs were trying to get out of their stadiums, but they didn't have the finances really to do it. So I'm sure you remember that.

summer Tony but there was a lot going on certainly at Liverpool because I took a decade off my life the manager Rafael Benitez left the club only a couple of days after the fellow who tear gassed me yeah the only a couple of days after the well it was it was made public that the

Royal Bank of Scotland had registered concerns about Liverpool's capability of continuing, basically. I mean, this was really, you know, really grave situation for Liverpool, especially. So, anyway, there was all sorts of rumours that the whole city was...

very conspiratorial and paranoid at the time because there was all sorts of talk of takeovers who was behind every single move who was behind you know stadium suggestions um this idea was floated in the liverpool echo initially about a dual stadium the echo reported it as being a siamese stadium now that air was not the term that was used by the people behind it but

I know me and you, Tony, spoke about this before I wrote it, but there was a feeling at the time that the people behind it were maybe linked to the Chinese state's interest in Liverpool as a city. You know, Liverpool's got a big Chinese community, big history. And it got me thinking, I wonder who was behind this crazy idea, basically, to move two stadiums onto the Stanley Park site where they're joined in the middle by essentially a hotel that

That was the idea. Liverpool's stadium being a bit bigger than Everton's, 60,000 to 50,000. But it was never revealed who was behind this idea. And it was floated in public to much condemnation. Just, you know, like it's not going to, it's not something that certainly the Evertonians didn't want. And I don't really feel listening to Liverpoolians that they wanted it either. But it was never revealed who was behind it. And I ended up going on the internet and,

And an email trail led me to this architect who lives in the Wirral. And it turns out really that these guys, it was a local consortium of architects and people from different industries,

trying to come up with a solution for both clubs' problems, while also obviously getting the idea taken on by both clubs so they could end up getting paid. You know, I suppose it sums up the period, Tony, in a lot of ways. A lot of opportunists around thinking, well, maybe I could come up with this golden ticket to the future. It never took off, but I think it, you know, I think, as I said, it does show that this is the sort of strange world of football where

Lots of big things that can appear really big loom into view and then disappear. And there are people who will try and come up with some crazy solutions to it. Although they firmly believed in this idea. I can't deny that. I think they really did believe in it. And obviously have spoken to the people involved in it. With Everton now finally moving into a new stadium, it's obviously particularly relevant for Everton as well.

It wouldn't have worked, would it, James? I mean, you know, you've got Liverpool with a big stadium, Everton with a shack next door. No, no. And to be honest, obviously, with Everton on the brink of moving to that new stadium down on the waterfront, it got me thinking really recently about the way in which FSG have transformed Anfield. And I'm

I'm just so glad that they took the decision they did in terms of staying put and renovating. Because I think when you look back at some of those designs, and obviously that piece that Simon's done is fascinating, and then you think back to obviously there was the one that Hicks and Gillette were committed to at one point. You just think, can you, like a soulless kind of, it would just be grim. When you think about what Liverpool would have given up

Yeah, it sends a bit of a shudder down my spine, really, to think that they could have been at this point playing in Stanley Park in a setup like that. I just think they've managed to get the best of both worlds now by finding a way to redevelop and lift that capacity beyond 60,000.

you know, you've dragged Anfield, you know, up to, you know, the standards we've come to expect in modern day football without losing everything that makes it so special. Yeah, and the thing is, there may be some listeners who might not realise, say, that Anfield was originally Everton's ground and the first title that come to Anfield was an Everton title. You know, so Old Trafford's, you know, 120 and the

They boast about it. But Liverpool, I'm claiming their title. Yeah, that's very, very clever of you, Tony. You know what? It's a thing that's coming up in conversation a little bit more actually now. Because I always used to think, obviously there's a lot of things that Evertonians are unhappy with Liverpool for.

But this has to be at the very peak, really. You know, the fact that Liverpool moved in to Anfield and made it almost this like sort of sacred ground. You know, I know Evertonians who refuse to go to Anfield. They will refuse to go. They don't want to see football matches there. You know, that strikes against what

what I said earlier maybe but I suppose it does show you how strongly some people feel to be fair I know Liverpudlians who won't go to Goodison who won't go to Goodison yeah yeah well I mean it is I mean how long would Everton feel for they weren't very long were they and it

We should explain the story why, really, don't you think? So it was down to a rent dispute, wasn't it? And one of the issues was around selling beer, I believe. Is that right? Yes. Because, I mean, Everton came out of St Domingo with a church team and the Methodists, you know, muscular Protestantism.

of the 19th century, the Victorian times. And John Holden, who was on the Everton board and went on to found Liverpool, was a brewer. And not only does he want to put the rent up because he owned Anfield, but he wanted to sell his beer and a combination of things sent to Everton, Scotland across the park. Hmm.

And then Liverpool was formed then to move into that space, basically. So Liverpool essentially were filling a space. To sell beer? To sell beer. As you said, Tony, I mean, people do forget that up until...

Even as late as the late 1960s, Everton were really competitive with Liverpool. They were known in the 1960s as the Mersey millionaires because of the spending power that they had. They had a big, rich owner and Liverpool had trailed behind for a long time. So Liverpool's success really...

is by, you know, relatively, you know, a modern thing. Well, I mean, what we've got, we've got the anniversary coming up of Liverpool winning the FA Cup for the first time in 1965. And that's where the balance started to change. Before that, Everton were the power in the city. And then...

Then the power shifted, the seesaw went the other way. And since then, they've been, apart from the 80s where everything was very close, but even then, you know, we were still the main power.

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.

So now they come to Anfield again. And James, what are we expecting? I'm hoping and expecting to see a rejuvenated Liverpool. That's got to be the mission. You'd like to think that the break came at a good time. And I know it's not like they've had two and a half weeks to put their feet up. Most of them have been out on international duty. But I thought it was clever by Slott to give them some extra time off after those internationals when you think he could have had the whole squad probably back together earlier.

Wednesday of last week given the way the fixtures fell certainly Wednesday or Thursday at the latest but he gave them a few extra days it was only the weekend when they reconvened because I think there's no doubt as poor as Liverpool were in the Carabao Cup final for me mental and physical fatigue played a big part in that

and especially the demands of the two games against PSG. And I think, you know, as we've talked about previously, I think probably if Slott had his time again, you'd think he'd probably rotate more in some of those games around those PSG games. But that's all gone now, isn't it? There's nine games left. Liverpool know exactly what's required. You know, after this, it's effectively one game a week. You know, there's no excuses. And I think

The prize they're going for is immense, isn't it? It was so laughable after the Carabao Cup final to read some of the stuff about only the Premier League to go for. Would Liverpool's season be a disappointment if they only win the Premier League? And it's like, are you messing? So yeah, there's something huge that they're playing for.

And personally, I just want Liverpool to do it in some style. I don't want to see them... There's a scenario where they almost limp over the line, isn't there? Because Arsenal drop points and Liverpool just do enough. I think...

Liverpool have been so good for so much of this season. You want to see them do it with a swagger. I'd like to see that, James, but I'm going to go to say on this, I don't think it's going to be a night for style Wednesday night, is it? It'd be great if it was. No. I think it's going to be dogs of war. I think it's going to be attritional. I think they're going to look at how Newcastle and PSG played against us and David Moyes is...

is very good at adapting this team to mimic better sides, to neutralise good teams. When I think back, we're talking about the balance between Liverpool and Everton, and certainly in the 2000s, by the end of the 2000s, Moyes had closed the gap, partly because of Liverpool's

you know, off the field problems, financial problems as well. But, you know, he delivered a good Everton team that was competitive against Liverpool that certainly every time they came to Anfield, it wasn't like it has been for the last 10 years where you're sort of thinking how many is it going to be for Liverpool really under a line of managers really.

Moyes I think very quickly he's put his stamp on the Everton team and done an excellent job in a short period of time because they're not just getting results they're playing alright as well you know they're getting they're playing with a little bit of style you know and you're certainly aggressive organised and I watched the Crystal Palace match at Fulham at the weekend and I think obviously one of the sort of the

the bad elements of the break is the rustiness that might be there as well. So you go from one extreme to the other. It's like they look tired to looking maybe a little bit rusty or maybe not quite as cohesive because it was a strange game really where Palace were terrible for 20 minutes and looked like they were going to get turned over and then they got the goal and then it was almost like memory matter kicked in and they were able to play a bit more. But it was still a sort of game which...

if that was in the middle of a run, I think it would have been a lot tighter. You know what I mean? So,

I think Liverpool have got that to deal with, as have Everton, I suppose. Everton have been on a decent run themselves. So I think because of that, I just think it's going to be a bit attritional, as you say, Tony. It doesn't really matter how Liverpool win, they just have to find a way to win. That being said, David Moyes has been to Anfield with different teams in the last 10 years. I remember a couple of absolute stinking performances with West Ham.

but this is the Merseyside derby and Everton will be absolutely desperate to be able to say that we started the rut you know with Liverpool happened to go on a run of games where they put a bit of pressure on themselves as they tried to win the league so I think it's going to be a really tough game and any win is a good win Yeah definitely what's the are we any fitness concerns James after the internationals are we where are we in terms of strength?

No good news really on the fitness front both Alisson and Ryan Gravenberg have been back in full training ahead of the Everton game obviously Alisson got a whack to the head while he was away with Brazil Gravenberg had to withdraw from the Netherlands squad although I'm told that was more precautionary than anything else I think you

You know, Gravenberg has played so many minutes this season, hasn't he? It's no surprise that he was feeling the strain. So, yeah, big boost to have them two fine. It will come too soon for Conor Bradley. He's obviously on the comeback trail after his hamstring problem. Clearly, Trent Alexander-Arnold still missing. Joe Gomez still missing, although Gomez is out on the grass doing a little bit as well.

as he starts to step up his rehab. So you'd imagine we'd see Jarrell Kwanzaa right back once again. But yeah, no other concerns. I saw Dominic Zabozlai got married during his few days off after the internationals. I saw Luis Diaz was enjoying the delights of Paris with his family. Were you invited to the wedding, James?

Well, I haven't had an invite yet. I'm hoping to get the shout for the stag. I mean, stags are much better than weddings anyway, aren't they? You could call some Malaga. So I'm looking forward to it. If that Carabao Cup final feels even longer than just over two weeks ago...

And also, you'd like to think that the memories of how that game at Goodison ended in February are still burning in the backs of the minds of every single Liverpool player because that...

That had to hurt. Liverpool should have finished Everton off that night. It should never have come to that. Obviously, it was an unforgettable, dramatic moment from Tuchowski at the end there. But Liverpool owe Everton one, and you want to see that paid emphatically on Wednesday night at Anfield. And there's nothing like it, is there, Si? If we come back to the question we were asked. It is within the city, even if globally it doesn't get the juices flowing.

The Derby belly has many, many people across the region very, very nervous. And not just on the day of the game, but there'll be people whose stomachs will be fluttering now. And I don't mean with hunger, James. It is both the best and the worst game of the season. For me, winning the Derby...

There is no better feeling. But as I said, losing the derby, you just want to keep your head down for as long as possible and avoid your friends in blue. That's one of the worst things when you have a proper job. You've got to go in and feast them. Yeah. Well, I mean, you think about all the different ways of winning a derby as well. You know, I think we agree on this, Tony, that the luckiest way is the best way. Like, you know, filleting the opposition, winning four or five,

It's good, obviously, which Liverpool have done quite a few times to Everton in the last 10 years. But getting as lucky as possible, whether that be a Sadio Mane last-minute winner, whether it be Divock Origi, whether it be James Tarkowski volleying in an equaliser in the last minute. I mean, maybe Everton did deserve, I think Everton did deserve a point, to be honest, as much as it will have hurt Liverpool.

but when it's been a terrible game and you just spawn and a lucky winner there is nothing better than that like for me i mean i know people watch football for all different reasons and want to be entertained but certainly locally that the luckier the better because it winds people up it winds people up more than anything you know like i just sit back and laugh when the people start complaining about luck on football pitches to be honest

My ideal derby is a slugfest, no football, a brawl, two sentences off, at least. Liverpool escape by Everton hitting the bar in the post. And then in the last minute, as all the Evertonians, when they see that board going up, they groan because they know the inevitable is going to happen.

And then we spawn in the last minute. And if that happens on Wednesday night, I will be a very, very happy man. Mind you, if we've killed the game after 10 minutes and we're leading 3-0, I'll be a very happy man then as well. And that's it from Walk On, your Liverpool podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Thanks to James and Simon for joining me and you two for listening. We'll be back on Thursday to discuss the derby. Let's hope three points are in the bag. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.