Is Ange Postecoglou 'too stubborn' for his own good?
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Hi, it's Ian Lademan here and as always I'm joined by Chris Sutton for the latest edition of It's All Kicking Off, a jam-packed show this week and we start by talking all things Spurs-Chelsea. I think Enzo Murescu's side are a team for the here and now and we question what the future holds for Anz Postacoglu at.

Is he too stubborn for his own good? Will he change? Can he change? We've also got a bit of chat about Dan Ashworth sacking at Man United and the outrageous ticket price rises at Old Trafford. Why does Jim Ratcliffe keep talking and what does Dave Brailsford do? Answers on a postcard, please. And we ask whether Brentford's G-Tech Stadium is the happiest place in the Premier League.

As for Chris and his favourite goal celebration dance, have a think about that because there'll be an answer right at the back end of the show. Chris, I'm going to start with a couple of statements for you. Chelsea are title contenders. That's the first statement of the morning. Having watched them against Tottenham on Sunday, I've come to that conclusion.

But also I was really shocked by Spurs, really, really shocked by Spurs and this Prostacoglu's team are worse. And when I say worse, I mean more wide open, more vulnerable, more prone to self-harm than I actually thought they were. I was quite shocked by what I saw on Sunday afternoon off the Seven Sisters Road.

The second one was quite a long statement, wasn't it? It was about four statements in one, actually. Yeah, yeah. Shall we start the show again? I've got nine statements. Yeah. Well, shall we start with Chelsea and just say yes? I mean, I think I said last time on the pod. You did, yeah. You know, the...

It's not one of those where they need to look at next season. Their form this season and their consistency more than anything suggests that they are title contenders and they have the strength and depth within the squad. So, you know, they're there by right. And yeah, I think that they are and proved it again with another strong performance yesterday.

On Tottenham, I mean, where do you want me to start? You think they've gone backwards from last season. I wouldn't necessarily say that they have gone backwards. Let me just rewind you to Chelsea and then we will dig deep into Tottenham and we'll probably fall out. So let's do the nice bit first that we agree on. I think what impressed me greatly about them

on Sunday was the fact they conceded two embarrassing goals in the first 11 minutes. Mark Cucurella falling on his backside for both of them. Whoever you are, you go to one of your great rivals and you give them two goals that way and you are two down after 10 minutes. You have got a very, very long afternoon ahead of you. Even if you're Manchester City, even if you're Liverpool, it's going to be difficult.

And Chelsea didn't make it look difficult. I know the scoreline only said 4-3 in the end, but in terms of quality, in terms of really good chances, the margin was bigger than that. I was just really impressed by the way they said, OK, we're 2-0 down, but as far as we're concerned, the game starts now.

and then they score the next four goals of the game and I think despite what Enzo Murescu says about them being a team for next season or the season after I don't think they are I think they are a team for the here and now okay Tottenham I was shocked I would imagine you can see value you can see worth you can see signs of encouragement but you tell me what you see

Well, I mean, there's a lot of assumptions from you there. Having known me for a while, I'm not going to sit here and say things are great at Tottenham. And I don't know where you want this to lead, but they're in a situation now where there seems to be

an almighty amount of pressure from the outside being put on, uh, on Ange Postakoglu and his position, which is, you know, that's the nature of the game. But all I, all I would say is with Postakoglu, you, you have to either believe in what he's doing or you don't. And that's the decision which Daniel, uh, uh, Levy has to, um,

that's what he has to think about. Is he a believer in Ange Postakoglu and the way that he plays? We know that Ange Postakoglu isn't going to change. And I think that that is a weakness. You know, he's stubborn. He will double down. But it's sort of what floats your boat with Tottenham. And longer term, whether you believe him playing the style of football which he plays, whether...

uh, Tottenham can win a trophy, but you know, you, you have to go back to the start and what the, uh, what the primary aim was in terms of, um, what was required to manage Poster Coghlu, uh, going in at Tottenham. And that was to change a brand of football. And I think that was a big thing. Um, was it bigger than winning a trophy? Um, uh,

I'm not quite sure on that. I don't know what your opinion is on that. I'd say that they were pretty even. But also, what is the alternative? Who is the alternative?

And, you know, these are all things which I think are up in the air. And I think, listen, things aren't good. Chelsea wasn't good. And I had the same feeling. I was listening to the game in the car, travelling back from the Fulham Arsenal game. And I had the same feeling as, and I do get this feeling when Tottenham are playing a half decent team, when they go a couple of goals up, the game isn't done. And you always sense that, you know, the better teams can come back at them.

Then you think a couple of weeks ago, Tottenham had one of their highest highs, beating Manchester City on their own patch. And people can talk about Manchester City's form. When Tottenham are good, they are so good. One of the best watchers in the Premier League, if not the best, when it all clicks. It's just, do you trust Postacoglu or...

over the long term? And do you want to keep this brand of football? I think a lot of Tottenham fans seem to have had enough

But what do they want to go back to? Do they want to go back to dull under Mourinho, still not winning trophies? Do they want to go back to dull under Conte, not winning trophies? I don't know. But you make it sound there as though that's the only choice. And I don't think that is the only choice. You can't have a simple choice between terrible, boring, dull football and...

exciting attacking football that doesn't, hang on, that doesn't work. And the fact is there's got to be something in the middle of that. And I think we were all hoping, all of us who've been entertained by Poster Clogger, all of us who've been impressed by him as a coach and as a person would like to see him find that middle ground with the Spurs team where they play on the front foot, they play in according to the club's traditions, but they also play defensively.

grown-up football that means they are not always desperately and suffocatingly vulnerable when they're out of possession and I'm afraid that's where they are at the moment and what makes me worry for Postacoglu and I do worry for him having seen that yesterday firsthand I do worry for him they're in the bottom half of the Premier League I think if it continues he he will go I don't think the punters will put up with it I don't think Levy will put up with it

put up with it. But there was a lot of things that you said there. One of the points you made was about cups. Now that's a fair point. They haven't won anything for years. And you talk to any Spurs fan and they will say, we want to win a trophy. Daniel Levy never understands it. Previous managers haven't understand it. They sack Mourinho on the eve of a League Cup final.

We want to win a trophy. Now, they are a team who can beat anyone on their day. We know that. You've just alluded to it. They've beaten both Manchester teams already this season and they've beaten Aston Villa comfortably at home. Okay? So from a cup point of view, yes, they could win a cup. However, every manager has to be seen, surely, to be moving a team forward. And at the moment, Ange seems to be stuck

on a kind of rotation of self-destruction. Good one week or brilliant one week, terrible the next week, terrible the next week, then brilliant again to give everybody hope, then terrible again. And unless that changes, I don't think there's a future for him. There can't be. There can't be a future for a football club that just whirls round and round and round and round and round and ends up 11th, Chris. There can't.

When has it in the last however many years been, and you'll probably throw Pochettino at us, but when has Tottenham over the last 40 years, 50 years, had a really good sustained spell in terms of winning trophies, being at the top of the league? You know, that...

That hasn't happened. So it's about, go on. But neither have they had the infrastructure, which they have now, that sets them up for that. They play in a football league where, they play in a football competition where the clubs that are owned by the Gulf States can't just blow everybody out of the water with spending. And they have a stadium that now makes them money like White Hart Lane never, ever did. They are more set up to compensate

Pete now and also Chris it's no good saying but you're talking about instant success in my opinion it's no good saying

oh, we haven't had any success for years, so therefore it's okay not to have any now. That's just not the way football works. They've got to strive to be a consistently competitive Premier League team. And they're in the bottom half. They're in the bottom half. And you know what? They're in the bottom half because they deserve to be. Anyway, look, it's...

interested in what you said. You did say a couple of things there that I haven't heard you say before, that you worry a little bit about Ange and that it's not good enough. And what you said about when you heard on the radio that they were winning, but you thought they may not be secure. That is exactly what I thought of the game. Yeah, 2-0 after 10 minutes, you think, oh, blimey.

you know, they score the next goal and the 3-0 ahead, they probably win the game. But as soon as Jason Sancho scored what was a very good goal for Chelsea to make it 2-1, I thought to myself,

Chelsea are winning this. Chelsea are winning this. And Chelsea are going to win this by three, four, five goals. And you didn't have to be a genius to see it come to pass. Because every time Chelsea broke on Tottenham, Tottenham just looked... Mate, they look like a school team when they haven't got the ball. They are wide, wide.

wide open. Anyway, let's talk to Matt Barlow or I spoke to Matt Barlow, our Tottenham correspondent on Sunday night after the game and asked him a few pertinent questions. The first one was very, very straightforward. I asked Matt whether Ange Postakoglu is under any imminent threat for his job. Well, Spurs have won one in the last seven, their 11th and that's not where they see themselves. So the threat is building. I think that's fair to say. The pressure is

But I think they like Ange. I think they like what he brought last season. And I think a lot of the fans, despite what happened at Bournemouth, a lot of the fans still like him as well. And they're still in three knockout competitions and they brought him in to win something. So it'd be nice to think that they can stick by him and give him the chance to win something. They'll be in the Europa League until March. They should get past Tamworth in the FA Cup. They're in the last eight of the League Cup. So...

I'd like to think that they can hold their nerve at least while they're in competitions, at least while they've got a chance of winning something for the first time in whatever it is now since 2008. They can't keep losing games.

They've got to start getting some results. Yeah, they do have to start getting some results. Tottenham go to Rangers in Europe on Thursday with all the emotional... Scotland. All the emotional baggage that that will carry for a former Celtic manager. Then it's Southampton away, and then it's Tottenham, and then it's Liverpool in the league. Mike Knight in the league, Liverpool in the league. Money to spend in January, Matt, do we think? Money, yeah, in a Spurs way, yeah.

They've never been the biggest spenders, haven't they? Although they'll tell you that their wage bill's as big as Arsenal. But if they think they can improve the squad, I think they've got to. They're sure that's obvious, isn't it? Seven out against Chelsea and a couple of injuries picked up and Johnson off with an illness and Bissouma banned for five yellows next time out. So I think they need to strengthen and I think it's only reasonable to expect there'll be some money

available if they can get something that they want. Some big fixtures coming up in the next fortnight. How important are the next two weeks for Ange Postakoglu, who said himself recently that if Tottenham were in the bottom half round about Christmas, then he might be in trouble? Vitally important, I would say. Yeah, he goes to Rangers next, which will be emotional and hostile. They'll see a Celtic hero wounded and

and be keen to twist the knife. And after that, it's Southampton. Failed to win there, and it's a little bit embarrassing. And they've got such a stretched squad that, you know, nothing seems out of the question. And after Southampton, it's Manchester United in the Carabao Cup, and win that or lose that, you're in the semi-final, or you're out of another competition. You're out of your first knockout competition, you're a trophy down, and then the last game before Christmas is Liverpool, so...

Yeah, important. That was Mark Barlow, our Tottenham correspondent. Straight into the point as always, Matt, you can follow him on X.

and on other social media platforms and also look out for his work on Mail Online. He's written on Tottenham from yesterday's game. That piece is up and running now on all our platforms as we speak. Chris, we're going to move out of the subject. You mentioned earlier, who can they replace him? I would, I would shut the names of Graham Potter, Thomas Frank. Well, if Graham Potter did well at Chelsea, he was a huge success at Chelsea. Ah,

Yeah, the facetious from you. And we touched on it at the start of the show. The start of the game, Mark Kukurela, the Chelsea left-back, falls over twice. Not just once, but twice to give the ball to Brennan Johnson.

They both lead to Tottenham goals. He then rushes to the side, waving his arms at the kit man to change his boots. How on earth in the modern age does a professional footballer run onto a football field on a Sunday afternoon for a big game wearing the wrong shoes? I mean, that is Sunday parks stuff, is it not?

I honestly couldn't tell you. I mean, I slipped over on my Chelsea debut when I went through in a one-on-one, but I had the right boots on. It's just the wrong balance. But for the life of me, Ian, I do not. Because, you know, everybody goes out to warm up. Yeah, exactly. And you must warm up. I don't think we've got to the stage in the game where players are wearing

different boots in warm-ups to the ones they'd wear in the match. I could never understand. George Weir used to wear a new pair of boots every...

every single game. Who did? George Weir. So he used to just, you know, so he would take a pair of boots out of a box and then just put them on and play on a match day. I used to find, I used to think that was incredible. I used to just, you know, I was a bit like Billy's boots. From a comfort point of view. In terms of, yeah, I would try and wear the same pair of boots for as long as I could. Yeah, broken in. Yeah, just because of the feel. Yeah. I just thought with the Cucurella thing, it's not as though...

The surfaces at Premier League grounds change much. They're all bloody perfect these days, aren't they? They're quite hard, aren't they, the surfaces? I don't know, are they? No, they are. They do seem to be really firm underneath. So then if it's saturated, the surface, there's a good chance of you slipping if you don't have the right footwear.

It's like when I'm trying to think of something equivalent. If you're out for a run and you trip over and you've got a choice, you either kind of act like a child about it or you style it out and get up and have a bit of a laugh or whatever. I think Kukurela had the choice here to either humbly waltz the sides of the field and change his boots

or go there, arms waving, shouting, screaming, telling the world it wasn't his fault. And he seemed to take the latter option. Yeah, but that's the perfect way. If you're a player, you cannot blame yourself. You have to blame everybody else for your inadequacies.

One thing I will say, once he had his right boots on, he went on to have a heck of a game. He was a real threat for Chelsea down that left-hand side. Always blame the staff, Ian. That's my motto. Always blame the staff. If I had any, I would. If you're enjoying this episode, please do hit the follow button now so you don't miss us in future.

I don't know who we're blaming for Manchester United's failure to beat Nottingham Forest at Old Trafford on Saturday. Probably everybody, everyone apart from Ruben Amorim. I think Ruben Amorim is probably the only bloke at Old Trafford who is free from any kind of criticism at the moment, given that he's only been in the door for a few weeks. They lost 3-2 at home. Amorim's record...

record at United is now one win from four in the league. It did surprise me how many people presume that United had turned a big corner after they beat Everton at home last weekend. I was at that game and saw how it went. That was never a 4-0 in a month of Sundays. So back down to earth, United have come, losing 2-0 at Arsenal, now 3-2 at home to Forest. But Jim Ratcliffe at least has taken...

a bit of the focus away from all of that. Some more pointed comments from the United minority shareholder in an interview he conducted with the United We Stand fanzine. And then he sacked his sporting director, Dan Ashworth, the same bloke that he only hired to great fanfare, having stolen him from Newcastle a few months ago. Chaos continues to reign at Old Trafford, it seems, Chris.

Yeah, and I suppose the big question is there, why did he sack Dan Ashworth? A guy who Manchester United went after really rigorously. And he's only been in the door five months and then to get rid of him. So there needs to be a bit more clarity. Clearly it wasn't working, but...

Or, you know, the Manchester United hierarchy are clearly unhappy with him and felt that he didn't fit in. But I mean, that's quite a ruthless move, isn't it, from them? Yeah, Dallas was spent longer on garden leave than he did actually at, on garden leave for Newcastle than he did actually in his office.

United's Carrington Training Centre. I'll say one thing, I suppose. There's been a lot of people jumping up and down over the last 24 hours in the wake of this news. I suppose one way you could look at it is if you hire someone for a post and it doesn't work, you've got two options. You let them sit there and drown for a while and

Or you bite the bullet and you get rid. So from that point of view, Jim Ratcliffe at least has shown himself to have the balls to make a big decision and to accept that he's made a mistake and hired the wrong bloke to get rid of him. So you can look at it from that point of view. But of course, the other way to look at it is that in the interview that I referred to that Ratcliffe did with the United,

He's talked on and on and on about how mediocre United's recruitment has been in the pre-Ineos years, how poor their data setup is, how people have made mistakes constantly in the transfer market. He describes United as a mediocre setup when they need to be elite. So he's talking about recruitment, all the while knowing that his first big signing of his time, Dan Ashworth,

is one that he's got wrong himself. At a time when United were slash, slash, slash, slashing at the staffing levels at Old Trafford, making people redundant, putting ticket prices up, desperately trying to trim the fat around the side of the bloated United pig, if that's a reasonable way to describe it. It turns out that he's wasted a load of money on this bloke. So from that point of view, it's not a great look.

But that's why, as far as I can see, I might be wrong with this. And he obviously worked his way up with his businesses and there's a ruthless side to him. But the issue here is Dan Ashworth wasn't an unknown.

who he employed and then got rid of because he wasn't good enough. Dan Ashworth has this reputation of being a really knowledgeable guy within the game, you know, a guru type. So to have somebody in in a short space of time who is well-respected within the game and then to cull him quickly without really... I mean, it may come. It may come in the next few days. It may come in the next few weeks, but without an explanation...

It looks like there's a bit of a dictatorship at Old Trafford. And I mean, it's not a good look, is it? Because, you know, when Ineos came in and Sajim Rakhtov came in, I think there were a lot of Manchester United fans who felt that they would take them to...

take the club forward to a next step. But what's gone on sort of in recent times, you know, the getting rid of Ashworth, but also other things like the, I mean, the upping of ticket prices. I mean, that's an absolute scandal. You know, for a kid to go and watch a game at Old Trafford now, £66 was £25, £66. That's absolutely outrageous, Ian.

Yeah, I went to Everton last week and actually paid to sit in the main stand ahead of something I was writing for the weekend about Goodison. And it cost me 55 quid to sit in the main stand as an adult at Goodison. So probably a comparison to be made there. There certainly seems to have been a lack of due diligence done on Ashworth, perhaps.

How is that possible? I don't understand that. You mentioned the Glazers. I tell you what, if the Glazers were behaving the way that Ineos have behaved, or certainly from a public facing point of view, the way Ineos have behaved since they arrived, price hikes, signing bad players, sacking staff in a cack-handed fashion, watching managerial decisions, the

the punters would be ripping the seats out at Old Trafford right now. Seriously. So work to be done for sure. And one thing that doesn't help Jim, I have to say, and I have said this to people at Old Trafford, is that he keeps talking. And it's a bit weird for a journalist to say, oh, such and such is talking too much because we feed off the words. Yeah, a bit of a pot kettle there. Absolutely. And I appreciate it's a bit rich coming from me. However...

Every time Jim Ratcliffe opens his mouth, he upsets people. He upsets United fans. You've got a lot in common. Whether he's on a cycling podcast, whether he's talking to the BBC on the... You can't upset somebody on a cycling podcast. Oh, you can if you go on it and talk about Manchester United, which he did. Whether it's on a cycling podcast, whether it's talking to the BBC by the dock at the America's Cup,

whether it's talking to a fanzine, whatever he says. Jim Ratcliffe clearly has an honesty policy when it comes to talking, but sometimes you need to have a diplomacy policy. And I mean, if you were his PR advisor, you would look back at that United We Stand interview and say, well, what good has come out of that for you, Jim? How have you moved yourself forward in the way that fans of Manchester United view you?

on the back of that yeah i i i agree i i do agree i do agree with you i agree with what you're saying and i i 100 agree with what you're saying but there will be there will be um

A fair few people out there will say, well, at least he's being honest. I agree with you. That's what we want. And Manchester United fans have spent 20 years under an ownership, the Glazers, who refuse to speak to them and refuse to explain anything and refuse to speak to the media and...

just suck money out of the football club without a care. So I absolutely understand if Jim Ratcliffe thinks that the Manchester United fan base now need an owner or someone who's driving the club who at least tries to explain his decisions. I totally get that. All I'm saying is,

he may well have gone a little bit too far the other way. I wonder if there's a bit of vanity about it. I don't know. But certainly this is one bout of public uttering that probably hasn't done him any favours. And I tell you what, mate, football is football. And the thing that Manchester United, like any football club, the thing that's going to drag them forward, the thing that's going to quieten the noise, the thing that's going to dampen down all the talk,

some decent football results. Manchester United are at Manchester City next weekend in the Premier League. So there's a chance there to get it going. Right, let's do... I just want to know what Sir Dave Brailsford does. I don't know.

I think we all want to know what Dave Balesford does. I do. Does Dave Balesford know what Dave Balesford does, I wonder? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there we go. Maybe one day we will find out. Right, let's do some questions for Chris. These have, or this first one here has come from X, and this is from Wayne, MUFC, with a point towards the ticket price issue.

Should price caps be in force across all Premier League grounds, Chris? I think they should. I mean, what's going on with, you know, the Manchester United raising of ticket prices for kids? I mean, football, essentially, there's always been a working class game, as far as I can see. You know, we're in a time in the country where there's, you know, a lot of people struggling financially.

And working class people are getting pushed out where they can't go and watch their beloved team play. So, yeah, absolutely. Jimmy on X asks...

Are Chelsea now Liverpool's direct title challengers? That's a good question and I'll probably change my mind next week. But yeah, I think I said last time on the pod, I think it's out of three. I don't think Manchester City will win the Premier League or can win the Premier League this season. But yeah, I think they are. I think they're showing a bit more...

Versatility is not the right word, but they're showing that, I think, certainly in terms of the way they play, Arsenal are a bit of a set-piece team at this moment in time. So, you know, I still wouldn't rule Arsenal out of it, but Chelsea at this moment, I think, are the rivals for Liverpool. This from Willy Wonka, 66, on Apple. Thank you.

Ian is loath to compliment Arnie Slott, an ongoing theme with Liverpool going back years. Chris, does Ian hate Liverpool? Ha ha ha!

No, that's... Where has that come from? Where is this vendetta for years? I mean, for decades against Liverpool. Where does that stem from? Maybe Willy Wonka has thought that ever since Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was made back in 1978 or whenever it was. Who knows? This one from Lightswitch on X. Who was the best diver? Robin Van Persie or Olly Watkins?

Harry Kane. Harry Kane. Thought you might say that. The England captain, which nobody could... People do not call Harry Kane, though. England captain. The England captain for diving, but he's the best. England captain for how long? And finally, from Lucy Banks, 82, on Apple. This is interesting. My eight-year-old is in a football league

where the score isn't allowed to be shared as it's the taking part that counts. Is this a healthy approach to sport? The score isn't allowed... He's a tech question there from Lucy Banks. He's a tech question. So, the score isn't allowed to be shared, but people are there watching the game. So...

I think it probably means there's not a league. There's not a league. But, I mean, I think that's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, where are we heading with that? I think it's okay. You think it's okay?

For an eight-year-old, I think it's okay. I think once you get to 10 or 11, maybe you've got to start facing up to the realities of the world. At the age of eight, I think that's okay. So the cutoff for you is 10 then? So at 10, they go into the big wide world and realise it's a horrible place and that you can actually lose. I mean, that's like non-competitive sports days, Ian. I'm totally, totally anti them. When I lived in Scotland, I went to watch my boys play.

Jump up and down on the bench, non-competitive sports day. One of the worst afternoons I spent. I mean, where are we heading with this? You win, you lose. Jumping up and down on the bench? Yeah, yeah. Jumping up and down.

bench jumps and then we all had to clap what are we clapping what are we clapping well look look come on come on you went to Scotland to play football in a non-competitive league so you might as well go to a non-competitive sports day that Willy Wonka he was on to something wasn't he

Damn me. Liverpool, I hate them. That was when Rangers were good when I played. They had a good team. Hey, Rangers are good. Hey, Rangers are good at the moment, are they not? Have I not noticed a creep back up to somewhere towards credibility from Rangers? No. Decent win against Ross County on Sunday. Catch it at the back to overhaul Aberdeen, as you said they would, to be fair. Yeah, let's get

the bunting out let's talk in a week because there's the cup final next week isn't there and of course they've got Angers Spurs it could be a very good week or a very bad week for Big Phil anyway let us know what you think those are questions for Chris keep those coming X is a good place to post some

You can do them on any of our social platforms. Blue Sky. Instagram, Chris is on Blue Sky. I've not migrated over there yet. Let us know what you think about today's subject message. Jim Ratcliffe, does he need to keep quiet or just say more positive things?

positive things. What does Dave Brailsford do? What does Dave Brailsford do? Anybody got a clue? Ange Postacoglu, stay or go. And whose fault was it that Mark Cuccarella spent the first 10 minutes of Sunday's game face down in the turf at Tottenham? His own or his kit man? Let us know. You can find us on X. You know how it goes.

stupid name and famous name we have an email address iako at dailymail.co.uk has anybody emailed us yet you always ask that question and the fact that i refuse to answer probably um tells you all that you need to know about that um but it is there for anyone who wants to break it break its rather lamentable uh duck um

And remember, wherever you get this podcast, whether it's Spotify or Apple, hit that follow button. Give us a rating, rate, review, recommend, tell a friend about us. We want this community to continue growing. Right, Chris, final subject of the day. Who would have thought that sitting here on the 9th of June,

that Thomas Franks Brentford will be the second highest scorers in the Premier League with 31 goals. There have been 40 goals. Same as Tottenham. There have been 40 goals in eight Premier League games at the G-Tech Stadium this season. What a place to go. Newcastle were the latest team to go home with the tails between their legs. 4-2 score on Saturday. I mean, they're...

The way I look at Brentford, Brentford came up at the same time as my beloved Norwich City to the Premier League. And to think where they are now, to think at the start, this is a couple of years on,

But to think that Thomas Frank was the manager at that particular time and at the start of every season, if you're talking about who's going to go down, nobody ever mentions Brentford. The way that he's built them and the way that they have evolved over in a couple of seasons in the Premier League is absolutely remarkable. And now, you know, when Ivan Toney left, I thought, I was wondering, I thought, how on earth are they going to replace him? And, yeah, and...

And yet, you know, they are free scoring. They are great to watch at home. I mean, it is a bit of an oddity, isn't it? I could never sort of understand this as a player. Their away record is wretched, but the home record, you know, they are so good to watch. They're entertaining.

Wisser, who I think is a phenomenal finisher, everybody talks about him, Bermo and rightly so. Kevin Sharder has scored goals in recent weeks, but they are a team who are absolutely box office at this moment in time. And if you're a Brentford season ticket holder, a home fan, you're in heaven, aren't you? It's just the away trips which are a problem. Yeah, absolutely.

I think if the Premier League was determined only by home performances, Brentford would be top. I think if it was determined only by away performances, they'd be 19th. So there you go. Which is remarkable. What you say about a place to go, that is a thing that when I see Brentford games on this television, everybody just looks so bloody happy. Football can be a sapping sport mentally, physically,

physically and emotionally you know a lot of football fans spend an awful lot of time feeling a bit fed up feeling a bit down about their team everybody at the g-check just looks like they're having the best day the best afternoon out they've ever had and long may that continue wasn't great for newcastle we'll have a little little nibble at them before we get into our moments of the weekend um chris so is he under pressure yeah i think so yeah i think he is at the moment um

Newcastle are six points behind last year's tally after 15 games and 10 points behind their tally the season before. They've also played five fewer games so far this season because they're not in Europe. So really, there should be opportunity for improvement. But they are moving in the wrong direction. And I'm beginning to wonder if that is a problem.

A terminal decline in terms of... Would you just sack everyone? No. I don't like managers getting sacked. You know that. You know that. Well, you say it's easy to say that. So how long have you been working in journalism? 31 years.

Do you think you've changed as a journalist in terms of your view on managers who go through tricky spells and now if a manager has 10 bad games, then you're thinking, or a run of games where results don't quite go, you're thinking, well, they should be sacked. Do you think journalists are sucked into that and that's different from the way it was years ago?

I think the world has been. I don't think I have particularly, I don't like managers getting sacked at all, but because everyone's human and yet people say, oh, managers get loads of money, get big payoffs, you know, they can go and sit on the beach for six months before they get their next job.

which to a degree is true, but doesn't mean they're not human beings. I have sympathy for them, empathy with them. Um, so no, I don't like mine just being sacked. The knee jerk culture of modern football is distasteful. Um,

I think you and I are quite closely aligned on that. However, and I'm not saying for one minute that Eddie Howe should be sacked as manager of Newcastle. I'm not. But you look at Newcastle and you see them moving in the wrong direction. And you see them moving in the wrong direction over a period of time.

And so here's another example. Here's another example. This time last season, right? By the time we were sitting here just before Christmas, Newcastle had already beaten Aston Villa 5-1, Sheffield United 8-0, they'd knocked Man City out of the League Cup, they'd beaten Arsenal 1-0 in the League, they'd beaten PSG 4-1 in the Champions League, Man United 3-0 in the League Cup and 1-0 in the League, and Chelsea 4-1 in the League. That was at this point last season.

The season before was the one when they qualified for the Champions League. So far this season, they've had two standout results. They've beaten Spurs 2-1 and they've beaten Arsenal 1-0. They've beaten Spurs who everybody regards as hopeless 2-1. The direction of travel is wrong at Newcastle, Chris. I don't think we can deny that, can we?

for whatever reason. No, but it's... So, you know, we've spoken on this podcast in stronger terms about Tottenham and, you know, you said that Ange Postakoglu is under pressure and yet, you know, Eddie Howe you don't feel is under as much pressure. I just... The difference is with Eddie Howe, with Ange Postakoglu to the likes of Eric Ten Haag, at least you can see an identity in what Newcastle is

are trying to do. At least you can see an identity in what Tottenham are trying to do. You didn't with Eric Ten Hag at Manchester United. I think that that's a huge difference. I mean, I'm of the opinion that

I don't think that Liverpool... Sorry, I don't think that Newcastle are in a massive decline. I take what you say about fewer games this season than last season and they had Europe to contend with. But they do seem to be a club who...

it's not going to take much for results to change for them. It's so congested, the Premier League, this season. And I think that that's an issue, is that we just look at the Premier League table where teams are week to week and think, well, blimey, they're in 11th, they're in 12th. You know, that's...

that's a disaster, but three wins on the spin and all of a sudden, you know, you're up in fourth or fifth place or whatever. And I think that that's, you know, we look at the league table. I know why we do it, but, you know, sometimes...

we have to sort of scratch beneath the surface and look at the bigger picture. No, I think that's a very good point. And look at the league table now. Newcastle are in 12th on the same number of points as Tottenham. They've got a negative goal difference, but at the same time, only seven points behind Man City in fourth. So I absolutely take your point there. However, I do think

that there are signs at Newcastle. The way they played at Brentford was not Newcastle-like. They didn't seem to have that energy. They didn't seem to have that freshness. And you look at the team and there is no freshness in it. There are no new names in it. It's pretty much last season's team. We know that the issues Newcastle have around...

falling in line with the Premier League spending rules. There have been question marks as to whether they're Saudi owners or as committed to the project as they once were. And in the middle of that sits Eddie Howe. I think one of the reasons why we give Eddie, or I give Eddie, maybe a little more props than I would to Ange, is that Eddie has a weight of Premier League experience behind him. Hang on, he's already got Newcastle into the Champions League and he's already got them.

into a League Cup final. Just dismiss Ange Postakoglu's 25 stellar years in coaching and everything he's achieved because he hasn't managed in the Premier League. So we are back where we started. What arrogance.

What arrogance from you. Dear me. You can only do... How many Premier Leagues has Eddie Howe won? You can only win in England. Anywhere else, it doesn't count. It doesn't count. Any other country across the world, it doesn't count. You need to realise that not everything in English football is viewed through a prism of...

of Andy Postacoglu's career. Everything is not about Andy Postacoglu. You brought it up. Yeah, Tottenham is about Andy Postacoglu. Newcastle is not about Andy Postacoglu. It's about anyhow. But they're very similar clubs though, aren't they? In the fact that they're big clubs and they don't win anything. If I had one of those fader buttons now, I'd just be kind of turning and just fading you out. I'm going to fade you back in again to do our moments of the week and you can go first.

Well, I mean, we've talked about my moment or my moment of the week. Mark Kukureya, you know, couldn't keep his feet as, you know, very similar to me on my Chelsea debut, but he did post on Instagram. I don't know whether you follow him on Instagram. He did post. I don't think he follows me either. He did post a picture of those boots, which is the boots where she slipped in, thrown in a bin with sorry blues on.

written on his post, which I thought was, yeah, it was pretty funny, pretty good. Well done to Mark Kukureya. Well done. Bit of self-deprecation. I'm going to go back to Brentford. Great winning against Newcastle. Some brilliant footage, which you can find on the club's Twitter feed, our X feed, and on other social platforms, of Thomas Frank in the dressing room

afterwards the way he's talking to the players the way he's um uh complimenting them on what they've done a couple of players had reached landmark appearances but there was a special word for ben me and i love this center half obviously we know started his career at city did very very well at burnley and has done well at brentford but isn't in the team ben me has only played

seven minutes in the Premier League so far this season. He's had three appearances, he's had two three-minute appearances as a substitute and one one-minute appearance as a substitute. But Thomas Frank picks him out in the dressing room and says to him, I know you want to play, I know you're not playing, but I saw you on the pitch after this game.

congratulating our centre-halves on the way they played, just so you know, I noticed. And I think that says a lot about Thomas Frank, the inclusivity, the inclusive nature of his management, and I think also says a lot about a player like Ben Mee. Because when you're not on the team, Chris, you know as well, you know it happens, happens to you, happens to all players. It's all right, you're part of my team these days, don't worry, you're captain of my team.

No, but when you're not playing, you can deal with it two ways, can't you? You can sulk about it, or you can make sure that you're there for your teammates when they're the ones who are playing. Well, you can do both, can't you? Sulk and be there. Oh, you mean just be totally two-faced about it? And he's probably, like with all that, Ben Meal will probably be on the bench again at the...

at the weekend. I'm never, this is, I want to finish the pod on a high, but I don't, I'm always quite wary about the, you know, the club. I don't mind the clubs doing, you know, managers in the dressing room, but I think you need to take the good and the bad with that, really. You should do them everything. They should put out managers' speeches every week. Yeah, when they're grabbing, you know,

grabbing players up by the throat and there's a dust up. I mean, yeah. When the hanging trainees off a coat pack. Yeah. I mean, you know, I do. Yeah. I'm always a bit wary. It's like, it's like they're a bit staged. It's like, I'm not in for, I said before, I'm not in for players going over to support us after games when they're winning, doing the can-can and what have you, doing the conga.

And then when they, oh, it's a thing now. It's this stupid thing now. Let me finish. I've never seen plays do the count. Well, that's what they do. But now they have to do that stupid walk of shame and get berated by their own support when they lose. I mean, it's ridiculous. It's absolutely, whatever.

happened to the good old fashioned sort of just a quick clap and get down the tunnel can't get that out of my mind now the thought of you and Lars and Neil Lennon doing the can can maybe that's what you did in your Christmas do no I take your point actually so let's have Thomas Frank unfiltered next week let's have Thomas Frank unfiltered when they get humped 3-0 away somewhere next week let's have a look at the Ben Me isn't starting in the near future

Ben Mee goes onto the pitch and collapses centre-halves on the bat. No, that is a really good thing. Goes on and slags them off to his wife. That is a good thing. We have reached the end. Thanks, everybody. Remember.

Give us a follow. Deep breath there. Give us a follow at Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You know what to do. Do it. It's up on X, stupid name and famous name, blah, blah, blah. Chris, thanks as always, mate. We'll see you on Thursday. European action ahead of us this week, Champions League, and then we're straight back into the Champions League, Europa League, Europa Conference League. Mustn't forget the little competitions. Back into the important stuff next weekend.

I am Ian Ladyman. The chap doing the can-can is Chris Sutton and this has been It's All Kicking Off.