Is Marcus Rashford REALLY the Man to Spearhead Aston Villa’s Attack?
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To claim this special double roses offer, go to 1-800-Flowers.com slash Spotify. That's 1-800-Flowers.com slash Spotify. Hello and welcome to It's All Kicking Off. No, I'm not Ian Lederman, nor am I Chris Sutton. I'm Henry Williams, this podcast's producer. With our two heroes away, I thought best to step up and season this podcast with some much needed familiarity.

Joining me, two of male sports' finest broadcasting titans, Mike Keegan, our chief sports reporter, the man tasked with finding, sourcing and telling the stories that matter to you. You may remember Mike as the man so firmly on the beat with the takeover of Manchester United that I reckon he was more clued up on it than Sir Jim Ratcliffe himself. Mike, in one word, how are you? I'm all right.

That's Tuesday, sorry.

Ecstatic. Ecstatic. We love it. Okay, now Ian and Chris have come under fire in recent weeks for trying to be too funny and that they should stick to football. While I can't promise we won't try to steal a few laughs, I can assure you we'll cut to the chase. And where else than Real Madrid versus Arsenal?

The sun's shining, the birds are singing. Mecal Arteta's tricky raids have brushed aside the 15-time European champions. 2-1 on the night, 5-1 on Aguigar. We were told the 90 minutes in the Bernabeu is a long time. We were told the Spanish word for comeback, remontada, was being uttered constantly. This wasn't a story of remontada. It was a story of remonada.

Mike, you tweeted it was one of the greatest performances by an English team in Champions League history. What did you make of it? Exactly that. I thought it was. It got a lot of response. People said, oh, have you forgotten about Man City? They beat Real Madrid 4-0. You've got a short memory. So yes, that's why I put one of the best performances from an English team. What I enjoyed about it as well, and I get panned for this, I'm one of those who likes to see English teams do well in Europe, right?

And I just, the backbone of the Arsenal team for me last night, the three best players were Lewis Skelly, Saka and Rice. And Declan Rice, I mean, it sounds a bit silly to say because we know all about Declan Rice and what he can do. But that almost felt a little bit like a coming of age performance from Declan Rice last night. You know, he's on the biggest stage. He's up against Bellingham, you know, people would regard as,

probably the best in that position in the world. And I saw things from Declan Rice last night that I've not seen before. You know, the first leg, the two free kicks, obviously, but last night, more in an attacking sense, which seems bizarre if you're going into a game where you're winning 3-0, but, you know, the driving forward, intelligent passes, it wasn't just breaking up the play. So for me,

I'm not an Arsenal fan. I really, really enjoyed that last night. And I struggled to think of an English team, given the opposition, given their record. You know, we're getting people saying, oh yeah, but Madrid aren't the Madrid that they were and they're not having a great season. They've got Mbappe.

this season to add to a team that keeps winning the Champions League. So you can't, we are guilty of overplaying, of overhyping. I don't think you can give Arsenal enough credit for that performance last night. I totally agree with Mike. I think so much was made, you know, people tried to almost diminish slightly Arsenal's achievement by this isn't a Madrid team, this isn't one of the iconic Real Madrid teams, but...

before the game, if you'd have asked a lot of people who would they pick out of, say, Courtois and Raya or Bellingham and Odegaard, you could have gone through those teams and most people would have picked the Real Madrid players. So I still think that is an incredible Real Madrid team or an incredible set of players, I should say, that didn't look very much like a team over the two legs. And I really do think it was a...

you know, Arteta's finest moment. I know he has won trophies before, but I think over the two legs, he thoroughly outplayed Arsenal, thoroughly outplayed Real Madrid, home and away. And, you know, were it not for a mistake by Saliba, Real Madrid would have gone scoreless.

in the Bernabeu where they had moments where they felt they could have scored. You've got Vinicius Junior who was crying his eyes out over not getting the ball on door and sulking last season. You've got Mbappe who they brought in for eye-watering fees. Rodrigo, I think, is one of the best wingers in the world. Bellingham, we know exactly what he's about. Rudiger's a top centre-back. Korto, one of the best goalkeepers in the world. And this might be a defeat that cost Carlo Ancelotti his job. You never know with Real Madrid. They're very heavy-handed, quick to push the red button. So,

I don't think Arsenal are the best team left in the competition, but if you can beat Real Madrid, you have the confidence to go and beat anyone. So yeah, Arteta's finest moment, I think. I want to touch on something that Mike said. Mike, you said that, you know, you support the English teams in Europe. Nathan is a proud Welshman. What do you think? Do you support the English teams? I just like to wind people up, Henry, people like yourself. I mean, actually, I mean, I'm quite happy for Arsenal to get through and all the people that got to celebrate that Martinelli goal. I,

I just think, you know, what is going to make me laugh more? Is it your misery or sort of everyone else's happiness? That's the kind of the catch-22 I find myself in, Henry. But no, it is great, look. And it's been a long time since Arsenal have been able to, you know, reach a Champions League final. And there's a very prospect that,

Arsenal winning and who knows if in the Europa League, if it's Man United and Tottenham or Chelsea get to the final of the Conference League. It's so beneficial down the line to getting extra spots for these competitions so that a Fulham or a Brentford or a Brighton or all these other teams, Aston Villa, Newcastle can get in. So no, I'm all for it. Speaking of misery and emotions,

Did we not all feel really sorry for all those poor Real Madrid fans who the camera kept panning out to with their heads in their hands and, oh, it must be such a difficult life being a Real Madrid fan. Horrendous. I feel so sorry for them. I know, but they've all got their merchandise for the Champions League badge with a massive 15 on it as well. So my heart really breaks for them. I know, flipping hell. Another team that was in midweek action was Aston Villa.

Things don't really get much easier for them after PSG when Newcastle come to town. And I think it's a tale of two strikers at Villa Park in the hunt for Champions League football. Our Midlands correspondent Tom Colamossi suggests that Villa and United Emery could be looking to cash in on Oli Watkins after leaving him out once more against PSG. What do you think about that, Nathan? Do you think it's fair to look to sell him?

I mean, I look at it from both sides. If you're Ollie Watkins and you're looking at that Thomas Tuchel 2026 World Cup squad, you're not doing yourself much hope. You're not giving yourself much hope by sitting on the bench behind Rashford. The way Villa are operating right now, it clearly is just a one-striker system where they are looking to prioritise Morgan Rodgers, John McGinn, Jacob Ramsey, Marcus Asensio, those kind of...

middlemen I call them but you know behind the striker that can play anywhere along that that front line and that is costly for Oli Watkins and they made the decision they were going to sell John Duran he ended up going to Saudi and and Arsenal's kind of move for Oli Watkins wasn't on I think if you're Oli Watkins you want to leave Villa more than Villa probably want to sell Oli Watkins I think from the player's side it's imperative that if he's not going to play and they end up moving for Marcus Rashford that he needs to find a landing spot where he can be a main man to to make sure he's on the plane in the World Cup next next year

Yeah, he said he wasn't happy about being on the bench and it's something he's not been used to. You know, he's kind of, he's been their guy for a few years. Mike, do you think he's been treated a little bit unfairly? I mean, this is the man that's got 73 Premier League goals to his name. Do you think they should be a little bit more loyal to him or do you think it's an ambitious club and they want to be striving for the best? I think the latter. It is an ambitious club. They are, well, they do want to operate at an elite level. They've got work to do in the Premier League this season to get

to a position where they would think would reflect the kind of season that they've had. I don't know about Ollie Watkins, I'm kind of torn between two narratives. You know, where he's come from, Western Supermare. It's a great story. The goal against Holland, I was there that night in Dortmund, you know, one of the greatest goals in recent English international history. But it was a moment where

And when we talk about elite level, the consistency is what sets the elite aside from the rest. And just looking at his goal scoring record, this season he scored 15 goals in 47 appearances for Villa. When you look at the top six this season, they've got two games to play, but he's scored twice so far this season against the top six. Last season he scored three times against the top six. Is Ollie Watkins an elite striker?

I honestly don't know the answer to that. And I don't think, which is a stupid thing to say because he's 29. But I think the fact that we can't definitively say either way would point you in a certain direction. And if, you know, there were fees mentioned when Arsenal was sniffing around him in the transfer window. If you're Villa and you're getting 80 million quid for Oli Watkins...

If I'm a Villa fan, I'd probably drive him. Henry, Henry, elite. You hear that a lot about, you know, what is an elite player? What is a top player? Elite player is one of the five, six best in their position in the world, which he is not. You know, I think no one, I think even Olly Watkins could admit that. I would say elite is one of the top five, six in your position, which Olly Watkins is not. He's a very, very good striker that would improve players

Almost every Premier League team probably below Aston Villa currently are, and maybe a couple above. Great at pressing, different type of skill set. But look at the way Chelsea and Man United now and other teams are moving to, essentially you want to bring in young players because they see them as assets, right? So that they will appreciate in value. I would be very surprised if you sign Oli Watkins this summer that he would appreciate in value. He's a player that you just want to plug in. He'll give you a couple of years, right?

and you probably won't be able to sell him. Either he'll leave for less than you bought him for, or he'll leave for nothing in a couple of years and that will be it. Now, Arsenal, when they were looking at him, I felt like they thought he could be just the missing piece, an actual number nine that you could put in between Saka, Martinelli, and he would have just got you the 15, 16 goals you needed. But be realistic, Henry, that if you're Arsenal and you're looking at Champions League semifinals, Champions League finals,

there are strikers you would want ahead of Oli Watkins for the biggest moments. I know he scored that goal for England, but he's a very, very good striker, but not an elite one in my book. Yeah, I think it's an interesting one because you say with the likes of Manchester United and Chelsea, I mean, in their...

stage of the development as a team you know they want to get players that can grow with them I think the Arsenal model at the moment is win now you need to win now you've got a 29 year old Premier League proven striker can you do it but Mike you made a really interesting point is he a lead the World Cup's next year he's going to be 30 next year Mike is he in your team is he on the plane

He's on the play and he's not in the team. Harry Kane, it's just impossible to look beyond that. And if you were to flip it around, if you're Ollie Watkins, you could say, well, I've never played for an elite team.

you know, the opportunity I had for England, I got a few minutes on the field and I scored a worldie against Holland to put us into the final. So that, you know, that could be easy. But if you're Villa as well, FFP is a massive consideration. Aston Villa want to be able to spend more money than they are currently allowed to spend. So going back to the transfer fee, you know, if you're looking at north of 80, 100 million quid,

you've got to look at the impact that's going to have on your ability to go out there and sign players. I would be very surprised given their track record in the transfer market if Aston Villa don't believe they can't go out there and get better than Ollie Watkins. One of the names that is obviously linked because he's really started well at Aston Villa in the number nine role as opposed to the left wing that we saw him so often at Manchester United is of course Marcus Rashford.

When Rooney's insistent that he still wants to stay at Manchester United and play for them on Amazon's coverage of the Champions League...

Rooney said,

There's so much noise around Rashford at United. It almost feels messy. Nathan, is it too far gone from at United or is there still a place for him? What I want to say about Marcus Rashford is I think he's...

been okay at Aston Villa. I think people are clipping up moments. Yes, it was a lovely play. And I'm seeing all these messages about, wow, didn't Rashford look amazing against PSG in that moment where he said to Ezri Konca, yes, that is the best moment we've seen from him in a Villa show. But there have been a lot of mediocre to average performances in an Aston Villa show. I think

if those same performances were plugged in at Man United there'd be a lot more scrutiny but because it's Aston Villa it's almost being washed and viewed under a different lens it's it's it's to me that that this Rashford has been amazing Aston Villa doesn't quite wash the same and what Rooney said there that there's no way he's too clued up at Man United to believe that to be the case you know he's he's around Carrington he's in and out with his sons playing and whatnot the

he said it himself recently before Rashford left that Rashford was there training on his own he was working with one of the youngsters 14 year old JJ Gabriel doing penalties I mean that doesn't strike me as a bloke who's got a great future under Ruben Amerin and you know we'll get on to Ruben Amerin later but

Now, I think it's too far gone now, Henry. I think a fresh challenge and a fresh start somewhere else is for the good of Rashford because you're judged differently away from Manchester United. You can put in the same performance and it's judged completely differently, as Mike will know. So, has he been great at Aston Villa? He's been fine. If he did that at Man United, people will be saying he should be nowhere near the team. So,

yeah I think it's too far gone for him at Man United. Nathan's absolutely spot on when he talks about the different lens which is viewed at Aston Villa as opposed to United I think I've made that point on the podcast before it is a different lens the scrutiny like it or not is nowhere near at the same level what I'd say about what Ruben Amram is trying to do at Manchester United as well Marcus Rashford just doesn't fit into that you

you know, Manchester United are moving away from the model they were under where they threw money at the problem. So Marcus Rashford is on £325,000 a week. That just isn't going to fit with where Manchester United are going. That's not the kind of player that they're going after. And, you know, a lot of my friends are United fans. They don't want him back.

They've been there too many times. You know, there have been more second comings of Marcus Rashford. And I think, to be fair to him, he is an incredibly talented player and

United didn't pay anything for him. So I think it's in everyone's interest if United can cash in now and sell him. And obviously United are another one who struggle with FFP. So it's a big, big plus for them because it's somebody who's come through their academy. They get his wage bill off the books. If they can find somebody who'll get to an acceptable level for him. And for Marcus Rashford himself, he's,

I just think the future for him is better away from Old Trafford, better away from that spotlight. And I totally agree with Nathan when we talk about his performances at Villa. Has he scored in the Premier League? Yeah. I know he got the goals at Preston in the FA Cup, but the kid's got number nine on the back of his shirt. He's not scored in the Premier League yet. So has he really set the world on fire at Aston Villa? Again, I'll go back to the point. He is a very, very talented player and,

But I just think it's in everyone's interest if he can find a move away from Old Trafford. But it's like with Garnaccio now as well. You know, I go to a lot of these Man United games and you chat to friends who are Man United fans and they say, you know, Garnaccio, that they're not having him or that they don't believe he's a long-term solution. He's got 18 goals and assists this season. Now, if that was at another Premier League club, Man United fans would be looking at him saying, wow, look at this really exciting winger. It's my opinion now that they would be looking at him going, wow, look at this really exciting winger that's got 18 goals and assists.

It's just, Henry, it's just different. The scrutiny at Man United is not comparable to me, to any other Premier League club. It really is. It's suffocating for these players. And I spoke to Harry Maguire yesterday in the press conference and he was asked, you know, how did you navigate this scrutiny? Because he's been there and

And he said, you have to try and do your best to just ignore it. But it's unlike anything you ever know. You know, maybe Man United and England, they're probably the two most difficult lenses to be viewed under because the bar is so, so high. But this is what I'm saying. People, you can kind of gloss over possibilities.

performances at Villa where people aren't watching him on TV, televised games every single week. Maybe you've just seen a couple of highlights, a couple of little nice tricky moves and everyone thinks it's going great, but he hasn't done amazing. And I think for Man United, they want him to do well enough that Aston Villa or someone else will pay them the money. Aston Villa, as I say, they host Newcastle and I think Newcastle with their own striker look probably in as strong a position as they ever really have to hold on to Alexander Isak.

They've got the trophy-sized monkey off their back. They look like they're going to have a big summer ahead of them, probably in the Champions League, looking to sign someone like Mateus Cunha. I think they're going to expand their training ground. It's very exciting for them. We've been seeing Newcastle's progression over the last few years since Eddie Howe has taken over. What do we think for them next year? Some of their rivals are probably still in their development phase. Do we think they could be genuine title challengers? I think they'll struggle if they're in the Champions League.

I think we've seen with Newcastle before the impact that European football can have on them. It's kind of a double-edged sword. And I know we'll talk about what Lado said about getting the Champions League spot for winning the Europa League later. But you can never underestimate the impact that playing in Europe has on a squad, especially if it isn't a really strong, deep squad.

And I think Eddie Howe is doing an incredible job at Newcastle. I was at Wembley for the Carabao Cup final. That was probably my favourite moment of the season to see the Newcastle fans celebrating because for me, that's what football is all about. You know, for those fans to not have anything to celebrate for so long and then to see the smiles and the tears, you know, that's the power of football. But I just think

They are not permitted to spend the money that they would clearly have. And with that being the case, if they do get into the Champions League, I mean, Henry, they might even finish second. That's how well things are going for them now. Let's steady on there, Mike. Let's all calm down a little bit. Breathing down necks. We'll say they get Champions League and we'll leave it there, okay? Yeah. But I don't know. Obviously, it's a great thing for your team to be in the Champions League, but

But I think there would be collateral damage. I think if you're Newcastle, you, well, like every team, you should have aspirations to go for a title challenge next season. The issue I would have is I think their first 11, you look at it, there aren't many midfields better than Tenali, Guimaraes and Joe Linton. I think on their day that they are as good as you want to get, really. Isak's one of the best strikers in the world, in Europe, really.

So that's fine, boxed off. You can jostle between Harvey Barnes and Gordon and you've got probably the form player in the division in Jacob Murphy, who I was tipping for England recognition this week. Defensively, Liveramento I really like a lot and he's only going to get better. Maybe you need to get a couple of additions. Maybe Trippier is not going to last too much longer. Maybe another centre-back.

But it's just that wear and tear. What if Izak goes down? What if they lose Guimaraes? The depth isn't there. And you saw when they had those nights against PSG, on their day, they can go with anyone you want. And I'm sure if Craig was listening, he would say, let's just say Newcastle can win the league. But...

That's why Man City and Liverpool and these teams that do go on and win a title, it's so impressive because the consistency it takes to just keep grinding out results every single week, even when you lose your best player, is so exhausting. As Mike's seen plenty of title challenging title race over the years, it is exhausting and exhausting.

I think if you're fairly new to the Champions League, with respect, I hope this isn't a patronising sort of remark, but you can get a bit swept up and a bit giddy by playing a PSG or by playing a Real Madrid or a Barcelona. And then you have to come back and play, with respect, a Crystal Palace or...

or a Brentford or whatever. And inevitably it's a, it's kind of a draw or, or, or a defeat and you've lost three points, two points. And, and maybe that will be the difference between yourselves and Liverpool, yourselves and, and, you know, Man City or Chelsea, where they don't get swept up by playing these, these, these elite level teams. So,

I don't know, Nottingham Forest next season, for example, if they finish in the Champions League, you know, what effect would that have on them? You would imagine that that would knock them back slightly because the focus would be so much on Europe and who they would play. So do I think Newcastle will win the league? Probably not, but I think they'll be up there. They'll be there or thereabouts again. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Life can get overwhelming and stress and anxiety have a way of creeping up on us.

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One of the big talking points from Monday's show was made by our regular host, Ian Leighton, and he shocked the world, I think it's fair to say, by claiming that it's fundamentally wrong and unfair that the likes of Manchester United and Tottenham have a joker up their sleeve for Champions League qualification in the form of winning the Europa League, while the likes of Aston Villa, Fulham, Brighton, who have hired well, built their club, to paraphrase the right way, have

don't get the same chance this season. So I put a poll on Spotify. 65% of people disagreed with Ian saying it's right that teams gain access to the Champions League by winning the Europa League. Well, after getting slaughtered on socials,

Ian demanded, and you'll be shocked to hear his voice be heard once more. And he sent me this voice note. Hello, everybody. It's Ian here, currently standing on the back doorstep of my mother-in-law's house in rural Northern Ireland, a few miles from Ellis Gillen. Just taking a few days away.

But I've been thinking about the events of the week and particularly about a conversation that Chris and I had on Monday's podcast when we talked about the Champions League and whether the winners of the Europa League each season should be handed qualification for what I think is UEFA's elite blue-ribboned football competition every season. But I've done something that I've not done for a long time today. I've actually turned off

my Twitter notifications, simply because the barrage of responses to a social media clip that Malesport posted of Chris and I talking about this issue has prompted such a wave of emotion.

and anger and criticism and from some people abuse that I just thought to myself today I'm on holiday for a few days I just don't need to scroll through this anymore I get it people you don't agree with me the Spotify poll that we that we started on Monday's show is currently running I think at 67 percent of people think that the winners of the Europa League should be

be handed a spot in the Champions League only 33% agreeing with me so I get it people think I'm in the wrong so what does it make me think does it make me change my mind no it absolutely doesn't has it made me think about the way I express myself and the force with which I put that argument across yes it has but I do I do stand by it for me it's a very very simple thing the Champions League previously the European Cup

what's it about what's it for what's it supposed to reward it's about league performance domestic league performance do well in your domestic league over the course of a season and you've got a shot at getting into the Champions League it's not there to reward winners of cup competitions it's not what it was formed for it's not what it's supposed to be it's not what it's ever been

and I don't think it should be that now. People say to me, you're only saying this because it's Man United and Tottenham who stand a chance of getting in it this year. And yeah, maybe I am. Maybe that is what's brought it to the forefront of my mind. But that's because they're 14th and 15th in the Premier League and there's no way in the world they deserve to be in the Champions League next season. So yeah, it kind of is because it's those clubs. But that doesn't mean I still think that Atalanta should have got in it.

last year or Seville or Antwerp Frankfurt or other teams that have won it over the years Chelsea people like that I think it's what I think it's my view it's my view um my and I have been in touch tongue in cheek they've offered me a place they've offered to host me at the final if they if they get there but

If they get there, I'd imagine I'd be in the press box in Bilbao working. So I'd have to turn that invitation down. But nice of them to offer me that. Anyway, haven't heard anything from Tottenham. So let's see what happens on Thursday night. Both those teams are involved in their second leg games. And of course, I wish them well. There's not, as Chris pointed out on Monday, this isn't a system of their making. They didn't decide to...

for it to be this way they're trying to take advantage of it and of course that's exactly what they should do but I'm standing by it guys as far as I'm concerned the Champions League is for well it's what it says on the tin or at least it used to be and for me we should at least try and stick to that definition as closely as we can

See you on Monday.

Is this an annual complaint or just because it's United? And Anthony, he commented on Spotify, said it's only because it's Manchester United that it's an issue. In fairness to Ian, he did kind of say it is in part due to the stature of those two clubs. Nathan, I'll start with you, but Mike, I'll come on to you as well. What do you reckon? Ian, agree or disagree?

I couldn't disagree with Ian more. I love the fact that he stood on his point. You always got to stick by your opinion, but I couldn't disagree with him more. And when I heard it, I...

you should be rewarded for winning the Europa League. We're all in favour of promotion, relegation. If you win, if you are the best in class in the second-rate competition of UEFA, you deserve a crack at the Champions League. That is a fact. And also, if you take that away, why would anyone give any ounce of effort into the Europa League? Why would you do it? Because it completely...

everything about your campaign. If Saturday football's gone, you end up playing on a Thursday and a Sunday. The whole, you know, you end up flying to all these, it used to be more random. It's less random now because all these bigger teams end up in the Europa League. I,

I think if you win the Europa League, it's not a fluke. You know, you have navigated a long league phase and then the knockouts. You deserve a crack at the Champions League. So no, I respect Ian's opinion, but I 1000% disagree. Totally agree with what Nathan said. What I enjoyed about that is Ian saying that he, announcing that he turned his notifications off whilst cutting into his week off schedule.

on a family holiday it sounded very tranquil to basically stand on the porch and record something about him digging his heels in so yeah that was it doesn't know what annual leave is I don't think no fair play fair play I think as well you know he's talking about the Champions League being for the best teams and that I

I'd love to hear his thoughts on the Club World Cup that's got into Miami and it pretty much because Lionel Messi plays for him. The only other point I'd add, and I agree with everything that Nathan said is,

A lot of the clubs that are in the Europa League are not the established elite. They do not have the massive squads that we touched on with Newcastle. And you run the risk, if you're an English club and you're in there and you're not one of the big six, you run the risk of that competition and the amount of travelling and the amount of games wreaking havoc with your Premier League season. So if you manage to go all the way in that and you put up with all that disruption and play all those extra minutes and you win it,

Absolutely you should get a place in the Champions League. Absolutely. And as Nathan says, you know, probably the bigger point,

What's the point of the Europa League if you don't qualify for the Champions League for winning? You are removing the reason why everybody takes it seriously. On the topic of the Europa League, Andrew Wells on Twitter says, it won't be an issue as far as Man United are concerned after Thursday. Now I want to find out from you two, very few people around here know Manchester United inside out as much as you two. I'm in the presence of

of Old Trafford greatness here. So, Nathan, do you think if United lose, we're recording this on Thursday morning, if they lose against Lyon, should they sack Ruben Amorim? Absolutely not. There is no circumstance in which I would even give a second's thought to sacking Ruben Amorim. He's...

Henry's come into a team that is not very good. I think anyone can see that. There are players there that are particularly poor. They've handed him an 18-year-old centre-back from Arsenal's academy in Adenheaven and a 20-year-old left wing-back from Lecce. So let's put into context, and he's completely transforming a team that's played 4-2-3-1 under 8-10-1 for a couple of seasons to now play this 3-4-2-1 that he's wedded to.

Eric Tenhauer got criticised for not having a style play, not sticking to his football philosophy. Ruben Ameren sticks to his football philosophy, sticks to his style of play, and now he's too rigid. The problem is with football fans, people are all for a rebuild until you're actually in a rebuild and then you have no patience to do the rebuild. It's true. People say, you know what, I'm ready to rip this thing up. And yeah, I get messages all the time like, yeah, United need to rip it up, clear out all the deadwood.

and go younger and get these young, exciting players. And then these young, exciting players need time to bed in and actually learn a style of playing. It's why is he not playing a back four? He's got to get rid of this system. He's got to, he's got to change it.

The last manager went, like I say, I'll repeat that. The last manager went because he didn't have a style of play and he caved on his beliefs. And he'll admit that himself when he left. Ruben Amarin is firmly sticking to his beliefs and has had a 20-year-old left back from Lecce and an 18-year-old centre back from Arsenal's academy. So with the greatest of respect...

I would give Ruben Hamlin the entirety of next season and next summer you make a judgement because at this point it's far far too early in the process So in the Premier League he's had 32 games they've won 12 of them they've drawn 9 they've lost 11 they've scored 49 and conceded 48 and

I get exactly what you're saying, Nathan. And I think it would be quite balmy to get rid of him when he's Ineos' man, he's Ratcliffe's man, he's got this whole new style of play that really the team isn't built for. Mike, Nathan makes the point that no one wants to be in a rebuild when they're in the rebuild.

But do you think he could have a little bit more versatility tactically? Do you think there's things that he could do to get the best out of this team? Or is this stubbornness actually a strength for him by playing through at the back when the players aren't necessarily built for it at the moment?

I think it's a strength. It winds me up when I get all this, well, he's refusing to adapt. Why can't he tweak things and get the best out of what he's got? No, that's nonsense. And Nathan made the point about Ten Hag and changing his system. I'd go back even further. I'd say Solskjaer was a victim of that.

Yeah, I mean, you could say they were cheating a little bit, playing on the break, and you don't really want to see United teams at Old Trafford hitting teams on the break. But he was doing that, it was working, and there was this emphasis on bringing younger talent through, and then they signed Ronaldo above him, and everything just turned into a disaster. What I'd say as well, in Amorin's favour...

He needs to stick to his principles now. And there will be players in that squad who will be there for the long haul, who I genuinely believe will be part of a successful team at Old Trafford. So by getting them into that system, they are already learning it. So whilst it might not look like it when they're getting absolutely spanked at Newcastle, those players will be better for it because it's basically, this season is now, they're not going to go down. This season has been a training session for Manchester United.

since Ruben Amarin got in there. And the quicker that some people can kind of put aside anything other than that, the better. Henry, we were talking about the lens of which Man United looked through, right? And I think a prime example of that was the now-deleted Sky clip of Lenny Yorra being criticised by Thierry Henry for his role at Newcastle. Lenny Yorra has been one of the most impressive players, albeit the bar is low in that Man United team, but he's...

week on week. He had a terrible game against Southampton. I was there and Suleiman of Southampton taught him what will probably be one of the most valuable lessons that he will have. He got absolutely turned inside out. His head was spinning as he walked off the pitch and

But game by game after that, he improved. I remember watching him against Fulham, Rodrigo Muniz, bigger player. Lenny Yoro was better. And all the time I get, Amrin hasn't improved any of these players. Matthias De Ligt has been good for Man United. Whether you want to, Masraoui has been solid, but people will focus on the slip at Newcastle and they'll focus on Yoro becoming a bit of a meme figure, thanks to Henri. And they'll focus on maybe a penalty that De Ligt gives away.

And that's the thing with Man United. If these players were elsewhere, this sort of bright light that's put on them on their one glaring error, which Man United are 14, 15, they're going to have made mistakes over the season, but there are green shoots of life there. Ahmad, they've been without. Best player. He's been brilliant. Like I said, Garnaccio, 18 goals and assists should have been more. That's the thing. And

Let's focus on the fact that, okay, Ruben Amin hasn't had the money that Tentaga spent. He's got a goalkeeper that continues to make mistakes and a striker that can't score. Now, you tell me many managers that can operate with both ends of the pitch being worrying problems. And if he fixes those, they're the priorities. Michael knows this. Striker is a priority, a goalkeeper they want.

you know, let's really sort of like take the bright spotlight that people put, you know what I mean? I get what you're saying. The only thing I'd say there on that point is that you say he's got a striker that can't score. And we were talking earlier about Oli Watkins. Before Unai Emery came in, Oli Watkins wasn't this

borderline elite striker they were talking about. Isn't that, is that not part of the coach's job to make a goal scorer out of players who have potential? Yeah, but Henry, he has about 10 touches a game, 11 touches a game. They don't, they've tried all sorts of faults now. You only need one. You only need one though. I suck,

I saw a copy. You don't, when you're a 22 year old that had one season at Atalanta where he scored nine goals. No, I think Ollie Watkins was a little bit more seasoned than that. I know what you're saying. You can go to a better level and, and, and Hoyland is a confidence thing as well. But when you're the only striking option and the backup is a 17 year old from the academy. Now I've watched a lot of academy football and Chido Obi is, is exciting, but,

the burden you're putting on these players under, like I said, the microscope that is like no other and you don't get chances. You might get one shot a game. At Fulham away, he didn't have a single shot. There's been other examples that I could turn to. And Hoyland can say all he wants about, yeah, I'm enjoying working with him and I'm confident. It's...

you know, you need, he needs more time. He needs more players, Henry. He needs, he needs, he needs more pieces to take the load off these 22, 21 year old players. And I know people say, well, why are they going after Liam DeLapp then? Or why are they not going for Ossieman or Jokeres or,

It's a funny position that Man United find themselves in right now where they're not going to be able to go and spend 250, 300 million in the summer. It's just not realistic. That's delusional thinking. It's not going to happen. And Ineos want to go after young players that will appreciate in value. That's why you're seeing links to De Lapp and Tyler Dibling and Malkunis2526 because they believe they will go up in value. I just think it's like Mike said, Mike hit the nail on the head.

You've got to, in a way, focus more on what are we actually seeing from the players? Are they improving? And if they're not, they're going to have to go. But focus less on results and more about the actual application of what you're seeing.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Completely understand what you're saying. He doesn't believe us, Mike. He's watching Arsene. He thinks we're talking absolute nonsense. He's not having it. That's the last time I ever try and challenge Nathan. So, wow. Firmly put back in my place. Do not criticise Ruben Amorim. Okay, point taken. The final topic we're going to get into is the championship tale of the tape that's tied to the top. Nathan...

Tell me the stat that you told me before we started recording about the perilous position every single club in the 24-man championship is in. Have you ever known a league, Henry, where there's 100% jeopardy in the entire division? One, top to bottom,

either anyone in the championship, they can either get promoted or relegated. And then I'm assuming a very small number could probably do both marooned in mid table. So a 100% jeopardy heading into late April is incredible and is exactly why the championship is seen as one of the most exciting leagues in Europe. It is just absolutely bonkers. It is brilliant. The top nine as it stands, I'm going to reel them off. They're going to ask you two who you want to see go up. Not because you think that

You know, it's good for them to be in the Premier League. Who would make the Premier League richer? Who offers more to the Premier League? So the top nine is this. Leeds, Burnley, Sheffield United, Sunderland, Bristol City, Coventry, West Brom, Middlesbrough, Millwall. Start with you, Mike. So it goes without saying that the best team to go in the Premier League will be Leeds.

And anyone who says that, because I know a lot of people don't like Leeds, I'm not a Leeds fan. Anyone who says that the Premier League is better without Leeds in it is lying. They are a massive club. They are an interesting club. Everybody has an opinion on Leeds and the Premier League is a better place with Leeds in them. Not least because we get the old Rosie's Derby back, Leeds Manchester United, which is an occasion to be anticipated, enjoyed.

I'd also say, look, it's going to be one. We know it's going to be Leeds, I would have thought, or Burnley or Sheffield United. It's looking like Leeds and Burnley. Burnley and Sheffield United to me, and this is probably going to cause a lot of offence, don't add anything to the Premier League.

and I'm sorry, I'm an Oldham fan. People would say Oldham would add nothing to the Premier League either. They've been there and it's... Do you watch it on Match of the Day if Burnley are on or Sheffield United are on? Really? Unless you're a fan of those two teams. I would say from that list, I'd love Millwall to come up because I just think it would be very funny for the polished kind of brand of the Premier League to...

to have Millwall and we'd be writing a story every week about some incident at the Den but we'd also get the Millwall West Ham derby back which as we said about Leeds and Man United I think the Premier League would be richer for Millwall versus West Ham Sunderland I would like to see back if they could for very similar reasons it would be nice to get the Sunderland Newcastle derby back I love the chat the Newcastle chant you've got to fly from Newcastle to get to Spain and

to Sunderland fans. I'm surprised the United City don't sing that about when they play Liverpool and Everton. Like, you've got to fly from Manchester to get to Dubai. I'm going off track a little bit. But no, and one other honourable mention, I'd also like to see Bristol City in the Premier League because I think their owner has...

He's a brilliant owner, Steve Lansdowne. He's pumped a hell of a lot of money into it. They are the biggest city in England not to have experienced Premier League football. I think Ashton Gate would be rocking and would add something different to the top flag. Mike, that tune has just slipped my mind. I can't quite remember how it goes. I don't suppose... You better not put this up, Bob. LAUGHTER

I'm supposed to give a little rendition of it. To get to spin. That's my horrendous Geordie accent. I'm impressed. I'm impressed with that. Yeah, OK, we'll get a voice note from our North East, oh no, Chief Football Reporter, Craig Hope, who'll be able to do it pretty well, I'm sure. Nathan, what about you? Who do you reckon?

Well, seemingly Mike wants to change the system so that five teams can get promoted given he's all for Millwall. I thought I was going to have no teams left to choose by the end.

So Sunderland would have been my answer. Sunderland is the one I think that they would, the town where Derby is absolutely incredible. I've never been fortunate enough to attend one live, but every time you watch it, the storylines, I still think of Di Canio and some of the great games that those served up. So Sunderland, a massive club as well, huge fan base, that would be the one. But,

You know, for a fan of a League One team that a lot of people dislike in Wrexham, but for a fan of a League One team that's daring to dream of going all the way, I would love Bristol City to go up. I would love Bristol City to shake it up. And yes, they would probably come immediately back down because the gulf between...

And financially now, I think it's a real problem. The three that went up last season are going to come straight back down. And that happened the previous season. And with respect, if Leeds, Burnley and say Bristol City come up, they would be the odds on favourites to all go back down. And that's a real problem. But Bristol City, the romance to get up, for that city of Bristol to have a Premier League team and Ashton Gate's an incredible stadium. And Liam Manning, I think is my...

of the season really in the EFL what he's done there the job he's done so for me Sunderland would be the most obvious answer but from a romantic point of view and for a fan of a side that is looking to go all the way to the very top Bristol City I think would be my answer The people really hate Wrexham Nathan I thought everybody loved Wrexham Ah

They should, because we're an unbelievable football club with an incredibly successful documentary that's very entertaining. So I don't know why they... We've got the best owners in all the sports. Ryan Reynolds, this is what I'm on about. Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney are the greatest owners in sports, in my opinion. No bias there, obviously. But Reynolds...

But look, Wrexham, if you were asking me in a year's time, Wrexham would be the best addition to the Premier League. The interest that they would drive, the level of fume it would deliver would just be iconic stuff. So if you were asking me in a year's time, Henry, I would say Wrexham. But unfortunately for now, I will stick with Bristol City. So is that you guaranteeing that Wrexham are promoted this season, Nathan? No.

I'm at all four remaining games. I'm there on Good Friday against Bristol Rovers. I think we'll do it. I think Wrexham will get over the line and back to back to back. Phil Parkinson, treble, promotions. Let's hope so. I'm going to be optimistic, Mike. I'm going to be nice. I think Oldham will get into the playoffs.

I think Wrexham will get promoted at, should I say Arsenal to win the Champions League? I was going to say that. Let's end this on a high. Let's be positive. We'll all be happy come the end of May. Come what may, we'll all be absolutely delighted. Happy Easter. It's Good Friday tomorrow. Let's get some good Easter vibes going. But as we say, that is all we've got time for and it's all kicking off. You'll be glad to know that Ian and Chris will be back as normal next week. Mike and Nathan, have you enjoyed yourselves?

Absolutely. Yes, good fun. That's all we like to hear. That's definitive. Please do give us a review and a five-star rating, wherever it is that you get your podcast, because it massively helps us out. He's Nathan Salt. He's Mike Keegan. I'm Henry Williams. And this has been It's All Kicking Off.

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