Trent Bids an Emotional Farewell as Liverpool Lift the Trophy
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Hello, this is It's All kicking off. The Premier League season is over, but the music hasn't quite stopped. Sunday's scrap for the Champions League places was just as dramatic as we hoped. Manchester City and Chelsea won and got in. Nottingham Forest lost and didn't get in. Newcastle lost at home to Everton and did get in. And that was because Aston Villa somehow became only the fourth team from outside the bottom three of the Premier League to lose at Manchester United.

season. Unai Emery and his team therefore didn't get in to the Champions League. It will be the Europa League for Villa next season. But Nathan Salt, our Manchester United correspondent, we haven't heard the last of this story. You were there at Old Trafford on Sunday. Tell us what happened. So basically Villa, terrible performance from them but

It's nil-nil. Morgan Rodgers goes through, pokes the ball through the fingers of Altai Bayonet, who, let's just be honest, has not got full control of the ball. That's the big debate here. He's got his fingers on the ball, sort of. Rodgers pokes it through, puts the ball in the back of the net. But crucially, referee Thomas Bramall, he'd already blown his whistle, Ian. So he'd already blown his whistle before Morgan Rodgers put the ball in the net.

that meant that VAR could look at it all it wants. It cannot intervene. The referee's already blown his whistle. There is no goal to give or not give, um,

Villa were apoplectic, furious, whatever word you want to use. The referee made a mistake. I think he's acknowledged that afterwards. And it's probably a mistake that cost Villa about 75 million quid we were working out from not getting in the Champions League to being in the Europa. So yeah, if he'd have just waited another second or two and not blown his whistle, Morgan Rodgers would have put the ball in the back of the net.

Villa probably would have had a goal and it'd been 1-0 and we've seen Man United fall behind and they would have crumbled. So very, very costly mistake. Well, yes, absolutely. I think there's a few presumptions there. The first is that United wouldn't have come back. They were dominating the game. They were playing against 10 men. I mean, Martínez having already been sent off for Villa. So that is a variable. But

Villa don't see it that way. And they aren't happy. They aren't happy about the choice of referee, Thomas Bramall. Tell us what happened after the game.

You're going to the press conference and I've never seen it in the Premier League where you have the director of football operations, Damien Vidagny, sat next to Emery and he's answering on Emery's behalf. It felt very European. It felt almost like an Italian or Spanish press conference where he was answering questions saying, our complaint is not about the decision.

to not give the goal to blow. Our complaint is about the standard of the refereeing that in a game of this magnitude, a ref that inexperienced in their opinion should never have been given the game. And yes, you had this press conference where Emery was not taking questions really on the actual row, which was on the back page of Daily Mail. It was actually the director of football operations. I'd never really seen that before.

No, that is very unusual. Villa's complaint specifically, of course, is about Bramall's inexperience or relative inexperience at the top level. Thomas Bramall, first refereed in the Premier League in August 2022. His games this season have largely been in either the Premier League or the Championship. 11 in the Premier League, 12 in the second tier. So...

A couple of things I would say about this. First, if Villa wanted to complain about that, maybe they should have done it before the game. And that's the first thing I would have said. However, I'm not...

I'm not totally without sympathy. There's absolutely no way that Premier League clubs can go around picking and choosing referees. Of course they can't. You do have to get what you're given. And if PGMOL, a refereeing body, consider Thomas Bramwell to be a good enough referee to referee in the Premier League, that kind of should be the end of it. However, when you look at some of the other games that took place on Sunday and you see that Darren England was refereed

at Liverpool versus Palace, which was basically nothing more than a big party. I was there, nothing riding on that game. Rob Jones was the referee at Spurs versus Brighton, which was nothing more than another exercise in Tottenham's self-harm. Brighton winning 4-1, but we can come to that. And Craig Pawson was at Wolves versus Brentford, which again had very little riding on it. Now, not to say that there's probably not a single

football game in the Premier League that doesn't matter. They all matter. However, you do wonder what the logic was when the list of match officials for Matchday 38 was drawn up. So for me, Nathan,

My sympathy, you know, if I had a big kind of swingometer here and I had sympathy at one end and no sympathy at the other end, you know, my needle will still be pointing firmly in the direction of not very much sympathy. But I do slightly wonder about that logic of that decision-making by the Premier League. Yeah, I mean, I guess Thomas Bramwell was promoted to that select one group, which is what every referee wants to get to in the country in 2022, as you say. Yeah.

And that is, you know, yes, he is oscillating between the Premier League and the Championship at a rate that's probably 50-50. So, you know, he is not among those like really locked referees that you would say you see him in the Premier League every week. The way I look at it, I do have a little bit of sympathy for that decision because if he just waits another second or two, the ball's in the back of the net, VAR can intervene. If it's wrong, VAR can rule it out, et cetera, et cetera. But I have to say VAR,

Villa also need to look inwardly at themselves. I know that decision was very high profile and very costly, but they were so poor on the day. One of the worst individual performances I've seen against Manchester United, who have been dreadful all season long. And Man United looked brilliant. And there's an element of praising Manchester United to understand that. But Villa played scared and they made a number of mistakes. Even Emery said after the game to the press that...

Yes, the referee's made a mistake. He's acknowledged that I made lots of mistakes and my players made lots of mistakes. And that was very magnanimous compared to the director of football next to him. But he's right. They had an opportunity to go win at Old Trafford and you most likely get into the Champions League and they never once looked capable of doing that. And I think that's as much a frustration for them as the Bramall saga is.

And it is huge for them. Al Midland's reporter, Tom Colamossi, has written and indeed said on this podcast several times this season that Villa are one of those clubs who do push very tight forwards.

up against their PSR ceiling in terms of what they're allowed to spend under Premier League spending rules. So this, I mean, look, 75 million quid, it's important to anyone, whoever you are, whichever football club you are, but to Villa particularly, I think they will feel the pinch of that

immediately. I think that will affect their decision, for example, on Marcus Rashford. It'll affect their ability to go and buy. So I absolutely understand the frustrations. I was at Anfield following all the games on the main online feed and

And it was very clear from what the likes of you and Chris Wheeler were posting on our feed that Villa were tanking at Old Trafford. It was clear that they were playing. And I did not see that coming. But I didn't see Newcastle losing to Everton coming either, by the way. Didn't see that performance coming. Let's talk a little bit about Manchester United because it's almost impossible not to, given the...

cataclysmic nature of their season now that it is over well the competitive season is over of course they're now in Malaysia I think ahead of a post-season game which we might reference in a minute but the Premier League season is over two things I want to ask you you've been around the club all season you were in Bilbao last week when they lost the Europa League final to Tottenham

You were there on Sunday at Old Trafford. Ruben Amrim on the pitch afterwards with the microphone apologising for his team's performance. I can see Rasmus Hoylen standing behind him just looking a bit bemused by the whole thing. Matisse de Ligt at one point, I'm afraid, was caught by the match of the day. Cam was actually kind of laughing a little bit. Looked a bit uncomfortable. I like Amrim for his honesty.

I do wonder sometimes if he says far too much. You know, if you were to go back over the season, you would find a good number of really killer Amarim soundbites, which are great for us, great for our social feeds, great for Mail Online, great for the back page of the print edition of the Daily Mail. You know, this is the worst Man United game

you know, we've ever seen, for example, is one that, the one that kind of rolls off my tongue. There have been, there have been others. And now there's this one. So standing on the pitch and saying, sorry, sorry,

Sometimes I wonder if he should just keep his mouth shut a little bit. Yeah, it's one of those... It's adding to the drama. It's adding to the drama. And there's enough of that already. I can understand that. I think it's very difficult for me to say that somebody's being too honest, really, because I feel like at Manchester United, people are quite happy to bury their heads in the sands about, you know, had they won in Bilbao, would that have...

the dreadful season. I mean, that's what, you know, to move quickly to Tottenham, Ange Postogoglu said they've had an outstanding season. In his post-match interview, he said, you know, every Spurs fan who has taken the season has been outstanding. One thing Amarin said was the Europa League won't save our season. It's been a dreadful season. We're not losing Bilbao. They obviously lost. And so I didn't mind. I actually thought it was quite a

the bit that got me on in his speech was him saying, you know, the good times, the good times are coming. Um, because what have you seen to in the, in the post-match press conferences, it was, what have you seen to suggest that that is the case? And you're going to have a limited transfer budget. You've got a lot of players that aren't good enough. You're trying to establish a culture, you know,

Takes Onana out of the firing line yesterday. Garnaccio was dropped from the squad entirely. Big question mark whether he'll be sold now going into the summer. Big question marks over Hoyland and various others. He's not going to have a great ability to transform this squad that's finished 15th.

So the good times are coming, I thought was a bold speech. And it was, again, like you say, great for headlines. You know, he said that the storm was coming and now the clouds are clearing and the good times are coming. So we shall see. I know what you mean. He's very honest and maybe at times he's too honest, but I think people at Man United need to hear the very brutal reality of how far they've fallen and someone needs to

you know, point that out, I think. Last week he was saying that, you know, he would, he would go if the, if the club wanted him to go. But I appreciate your point about, about honesty, maybe some contradiction there. What did he say, by the way, when you asked him in the press conference about what do you base your, that statement about good times around the corner on? What was his answer? He basically said that, you know, that they've learned, they've made so many mistakes that,

he now knows how to fix it. He knows how to

things around and he admitted that yes from day one of next season he'll be under immense pressure and he feels like you know he hasn't been under that immense level of scrutiny maybe he's been afforded a lot of leeway like say I've been on here before saying that you know there are there are figures that feel like it's been a bit of a not training session that's not not quite accurate but he's had a lot of rope really to work things out but that that rope isn't going to extend too much into next season he's on one game a week next season no Europe and

And he said, look, we need to improve quickly. And I believe we will. I know what to do now. And yeah, the proof is in the pudding from game one of next season. The Garnasch thing is a big call. He left him out of the squad. The suggestions that he won't play for Manchester United again. It does make me wonder, the Marcus Rashford decision by Ruben Amram to move him on, move him out in January, I think was an indication of strength. Rashford had...

stretch the patience of previous Manchester United managers, Eric Ten Hag in particular. I could see why Amir did what he did. But if you keep doing it, you keep moving players out you can't get on with, especially your good young players, then that to me starts to raise questions about your man management. Because at the end of the day, all managers in the Premier League have tricky characters to deal with. It's the nature of the game these days. Maybe it's always been the nature of the game. It's his job to...

to fix problems in players, to mould players, to help young players grow. Rashford's slightly different. He's older. He might be unfixable. Adolphe Shogun actually is unfixable. And you saw when he came on against Tottenham in Bilbao, the threat that he brings. You could argue whether he fits the system or not. That's another debate. But if you keep moving out players who you are clashing with,

there comes a point where people will start to ask whether it's the players who are the problem or the manager. That's all over. That's, that's what I would say on that. Uh, Nathan, I ask you for one very quick line on that. Yeah, totally fair. I think what, what struck me yesterday was that there are certain insiders who are very, very fair and sympathetic to guy nacho when he gets negative headlines and whatnot. And they felt that it was the right decision to, to leave them out. They felt like where everything that had happened behind the scenes and more will come out on that. I'm, I'm sure, uh,

they felt like the manager needed to make the decision he made. And I thought that that was quite telling to me. Okay. Yeah. Very good insight. Okay. What, what, what's your space briefly? Where are they going on this post-season week?

First game in Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur on Wednesday, and then a game against sort of a Hong Kong 11, which all the players you can imagine Ian are thrilled to be doing after finishing 15th. What? Is Garnasch on that tour? He is. He's on that tour. He was smiling ear to ear like the Cheshire Cat when they posted outside the plane. So I don't know whether he was just having a bit of fun with everyone. Yeah.

Maybe. Anyway, watch this space on Alejandro Garnaccio and indeed Manchester United. Nathan Salt will be covering Man United throughout the summer and indeed into next season. Follow him on the socials. Also follow him on YouTube and indeed TikTok, where it was getting quite a following at the moment. Back to referees. Anthony Taylor was the referee at Forest

against Chelsea, which is interesting because that probably was the game that appeared to have most riding on it. And PGMOL clearly decided to give what some people believe to be their best referee that fixture that plays to the Thomas Bramwell thing, of course, at Old Trafford. Anyway, Chelsea have won five of the last six Premier League games, Nathan, to get into the Champions League.

Fair play. They came with a late run and have squeezed over the line. And their coach, Enzo Murescu, was quite bullish afterwards. I'm having a bit of a pot shot of some of his critics saying that some of the fuss was just coming from outside and inside the dressing room and inside the club. They always knew what they were going to do. They always knew they were going to get into the top five, even though he'd spent...

much of the last two months telling people it didn't matter whether they got into the top five or not. But there we go. Oliver Hart, our chief sports writer, writing on Mail Online this morning, not overly impressed with that, accusing Chelsea of spending £1.2 billion just to finish fourth. I don't know about you, but

But for me, if you're a new Chelsea manager, you come in at the start of the season and they're not in the Champions League and you finish the season in the Champions League and the final of the Europa Conference League, I think you've had a good season. Yeah, I think it's totally fair. You know, if people are going to criticise him or question his future, that was the case multiple occasions during the season. Is Maresca going to last? Is he going to get the chop? And he gets you back into the Champions League and he's got you into a European final in the same week.

I think he's well within his rights to have a pop back. I don't mind that at all. I don't mind that when managers give it back a little bit. And you can tell he'd kind of loaded up and was ready to kind of give it back. So good on him. Like I say, that's an incredible run. And I really thought Forrest might get a result there on the final day at the City grounds. An amazing place to watch football. Great atmosphere there. And for Chelsea to go there and get a win, they deserve a boatload of credit, I think.

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it might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. I was at Anfield emotional day. Lovely to see Alan Hansen handing out the Premier League trophy and the medals to the Liverpool players. Alan was...

Poorly, a year or so ago. Very poorly indeed. Great to see him back on his feet and out there. What a player he was. What an ambassador for that football club he is. Two quick questions. Are Liverpool favourites for next season? And what do you make of the potential signing of Florian Wurz, the German international midfielder from Bayer Leverkusen, which seems to be in the wind?

I would say yes, Liverpool right now, as of right now, are favourites to retain the Premier League title. They've got the best squad and they look like they're making the best signings. Frimpong, Kirk, as I'm expecting to come in, and Florian Wurz, one of the best young players in Europe. So you can imagine Liverpool's rivals, Liverpool Premier League champions, and they're about to go and sign one of the best young players in Europe. I mean, that is demoralising if you're Manchester City, Arsenal, anybody else that's got ambitions of winning the Premier League.

Yeah, and it's impressive. And I say it's impressive, it's impressive in its intent. You can't say it's impressive because none of us know how, if they do sign all those three players, nobody knows how they'll turn out. Nobody knows how they'll go. No guarantees in football. But in terms of their intent, you know, it's Alex Ferguson during his glory years at Manchester United,

always used to say, strengthen when you are strong. Strengthen when you're strong. I remember when Man City won the league for the first time in 2012 and they didn't.

didn't Manchester um strengthen when they were strong they wanted Robin Van Persie they didn't get him Manchester United got him Manchester United won the league the next the next season strengthen when you're strong um uh what is it they say fix the holes in the roof before the rain starts and that's and then we could go back to Manchester United and look at and maybe you know talk about a club that's that's sadly done it a different way recently but it is impressive um from um from Liverpool in terms of their intent one thing that

it's hard to get away from me and this really came home to me yesterday obviously it was a bit of a bits and pieces game Palace scored early Liverpool desperately didn't want to lose before they got this trophy but it didn't really matter if they did managed to get the equaliser Mo Salah's 29th goal of the season Trent Alexander-Arnold came on at half time I'll get on to that later in detail but goodness me made a difference and in

Amid all the fuss about Trent and should he be going and the way that certain people have reacted to the fact he is going, what has been overlooked is how much they will miss him on the field. They were 35% better as soon as he came on at halftime yesterday. There was one pass that he played through the middle to Darwin Nunes from his own half that I reckon had a margin of error of about 2%.

And he pulled it off. He pulled it off. And even Jurgen Klopp in the crowd gave that a wow. They are really going to, they are really going to miss that guy.

He's got a unique skillset. Now he's, he is, you know, one of the best attackers of any, you know, of anybody on the pitch and he plays in defence. He's one of the finest passers of the ball from any position anywhere on the pitch. He's as good as any midfielder you will see. And in that case, he's very unique. I thought it was particularly interesting that Slott did have a go and question him in training this week. I thought that was particularly telling and Jurgen Klopp came

as like a proud dad that was, you know, coming out in his defence in the gala. And that did not go down well seemingly with the Liverpool fans I spoke to and know. But yeah, very difficult to replace. But I do think the Frimpong move, which our colleague Lewis Steele has written about extensively and, you know, they've already got a lot of Dutch players there. Gravenbert, she's been brilliant. Van Dijk, who's obviously incredible, needs no sort of introduction. Yeah.

And it'll be different, but maybe also it's a chance to evolve slightly and make maybe less emphasis on that position and more... I don't know. It'd be interesting to see, but...

Liverpool will invariably miss Trent Alexander-Arnold. He's a brilliant footballer, no matter what anyone wants to tell you or any of the revisionism that people want to put out there now. Huge ask of Conor Bradley to fill those shoes. I know that, like you said, he's signing for Impong, but a huge ask of Conor Bradley. Last couple of games I've seen him play against Arsenal, a couple of weeks ago, he got taken off because he was on a yellow card and struggling. Yesterday, he didn't make it beyond half-time either. Huge ask for Bradley. Very, very talented footballer, but I think for people to presume that he will just, obviously, different kind of full-backs.

talented in different ways. But for people just to presume that he will slot into that role and then bang out 38 league games over the course of a season is presumptuous. So let's see what happens there. Now you think that

Liverpool will start favourites next season. I can see your logic in that. Let's quickly play a little game. Let's do a bit of ranking. Ranking with an R, everybody, in terms of how we think certain clubs have done this season. Very simple game. Everybody can join in at home if they want to. Nathan, I'm just going to go down the Premier League.

table 1 to 20 champions to relegation and we're going to give the clubs marks out of 10 I don't want justification I don't want any kind of soliloquies about why you're giving City 4 or Chelsea 9 I just want to know what your marks are and I will follow them with mine and people at home can make their own conclusions here we go Liverpool 10 out of 10 impossible no such thing as a perfect season 8 sorry 9 Arsenal 7 out of 10

Six and a half out of 10. Manchester City? Five out of 10. Five out of 10. I'm going to stop you here, Latham, because I didn't explain the rules properly. This, half marks are available. This, by the way, covers not just the Premier League, but the whole season. Okay? The whole season. So I'm now going to revise my mark on Arsenal because that was poor. They got to Champions League semi-final. I'm going to give Arsenal seven. We both give Manchester City five. Chelsea? Seven out of 10.

Eight out of ten. Newcastle. Eight and a half out of ten. Eight out of ten. Aston Villa. Six out of ten. Seven out of ten. Nottingham Forest. Seven out of ten. Eight out of ten. Brighton. Six out of ten. Seven out of ten. Bournemouth. Seven out of ten. Six and a half out of ten. Brentford. Top off six out of ten. Seven out of ten. Fulham. Five out of ten. Harsh.

6.5 out of 10 Crystal Palace FA Cup winners 9 out of 10 8 out of 10 Everton reached a mighty height of 13th at the end 6 out of 10 I'm going to upset people here I'm really going to upset people here 6 out of 10 West Ham 4 out of 10 4.5 out of 10 Manchester United 3 out of 10 3.5 out of 10 Wolves 5 out of 10 6 out of 10

Hans-Proser Kogler's Europa League winners, Tottenham. Seven out of 10. Blimey, 22 league defeats, 22 league defeats. Six out of 10. Leicester. Two out of 10. One and a half out of 10. They had enough. They had enough to make a better fist of it. They really did. Ipswich. Three out of 10. They're more interesting than Leicester. Four out of 10. Southampton. Zero out of 10.

One out of 10. So there we go. That is it. The range goes from one out of 10 for Southampton to Nathan giving Liverpool 10 out of 10. You can't do 10 out of 10. That's a perfect season. Absolutely. That's now you've got, you've got it. If 10 is on the scale, I've got to be able to award a 10. I've never understood this. If 10 is on the scale, it's there to be used. I always stand by that. Well,

you can use it, but you've just abused it. There we go. Let us know what you think, everybody. Bit of fun there. That was our ranking game. Like I say, ranking with an R. That's twice I've used that pathetically smutty joke, but I can get away with it because I'm in charge. Right, some quick subjects, Nathan. Let's rattle through these before we get to our moments of the weekend.

Man City 1-2-0 at Fulham, as we know. They'll be in the Champions League next season. Pep Guardiola afterwards muttering rather darkly, not for the first time, about Jack Grealish, suggesting that he might have to find himself a future away from Manchester City. Can he do that? If Jack Grealish, which I think he must, leaves Manchester City this summer, he'll be 30 in September. Is there a second life for Jack away?

away from City? Or is he one of those players who maybe has already given us his, maybe we've already seen the best of? I'm going to hope there's a second life, but I do worry that maybe that maverick nature, that kind of freedom has been coached out of him, dare I say, and knocked out of him. And so my fear is that I'm being a little bit naive to think that he's just going to click back into the old Jack Grealish that we saw before the treble or Aston Villa. So,

I'm going to try and be positive here and say that there is life at a club where he will be the kind of the centre of the universe, really. Because if he's not that, then I struggle to see how he gets back to his best. Yeah, interesting. Centre of the universe, which is certainly what he was at Villa. I mean, when you have these conversations about players, players moving from big clubs, there's always the...

there's always the underscore, which is the salary. Who can pay it? Where's it going to go? But if we lived in a fantasy world, I mean, you could see him back at Villa if they'd have him, couldn't you? You could see him at Newcastle, somewhere like that. I must admit, I do... This business of Pep Guardiola ruining players, which is becoming a bit of a theme at the moment, just jar with me a little bit. I mean...

Jack Grealish went to Manchester City, whenever it was, three or four summers ago for £100 million. And yeah, and he leaves Manchester City this summer as a treble, as a bloke who won a treble, right? So, has Pep Guardiola ruined Jack Grealish? Or has Jack Grealish just ultimately failed to

cut the mustard when it comes to playing for an uber demanding top level football coach? Yeah, I don't necessarily think Pep Guardiola's ruined Grealish because he's got his own amount of the blame that he must take. He's not been at the level since the treble really. And I think he's spoken on record as well that he was needing to find the hunger and find the appetite again. But it's inescapable that there is more of a rigidity in

you know, you need to be a piece in Guardiola's system and it's not really a place for Mavericks. That's why it's really interesting to me every time I see Jeremy Doku play because he's kind of so unpredictable, which is not really what Guardiola likes. He likes consistency and, you know, a group that he knows will just win time and time again. And,

That free roll that Grealish was used to at Villa and at times had at City, he doesn't have very often. And he hasn't had in recent times. And even when he has been afforded those minutes, he hasn't taken it. So I don't think Pep's ruined him, but I think he has changed him. And maybe Grealish hasn't been able to adapt for the better to that.

Not wishing to contradict myself, but I'm going to do it anyway. I sat down with Jack a couple of years ago, actually, season before the treble season, I think. No, it was treble season. Treble season. To talk about his life and his career. And he said to me, almost in passing, something that stuck with me, that one of the

key instructions that Pep Guardiola used to ball out at him from the touchline was win fouls, win fouls. And that, a little insight there into the way that Pep's mind works. And to him, to someone like Pep, it's just as important to win a set piece in a key area than it is for Jack to

get the ball, turn around and, you know, use his instincts and try and beat two men. Just the way that Pep Guardiola sees the game. It's not served him too badly over the years. One of Grealish's teammates, Kevin De Bruyne, has played his last game for Manchester City. It would appear that he's on the way to Napoli, the new Serie A champions. Really interesting, this. Again, we'll try and keep this short. So,

Scott McTominay has won Serie A with Napoli. Round of applause for that. Brave decision for any footballer to go abroad. To go there, embrace it, become so important, scored a goal in the game that clinched the title. Fabulous. Okay? Fabulous. But this suggestion...

that's around a lot at the moment on social media about very angry Man United fans. Shouldn't have sold McTominay. Just won the Serie A. Same for Lukaku. Why is it that players like Anthony Alanga go to Nottingham Forest and shoot the lights out? Why is it that Anthony goes abroad alone and shoots the lights out? Why does Rashford do well at Villa? There's something wrong with our football club.

Scott McTominay wasn't good enough for Manchester United, Nathan, in my opinion. Manchester United's aim always has to be to win the Premier League, to be the best team in the country, okay? Elite footballers, okay? Just because the players that have replaced Scott McTominay haven't proved themselves up to the job doesn't mean that he was the future of Manchester United. He was only the future of Manchester United if he wanted to finish seventh for the rest of time.

And the fact that De Bruyne is on his way to Napoli, okay,

All the experts seem to suggest that De Bruyne's legs have gone. Can't make it in the Premier League anymore. Doesn't seem to be loads of interest in him from the Premier League on a free transfer. So what does that tell you? But the champions of Italy are ready to snap him up. So that to me plays to my longstanding argument that Serie A is just that level or two beneath the Premier League and players who are seven out of 10 players over here can go over there and play for the champions.

Don't argue against that point. I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is a level below the Premier League in terms of intensity and physicality. Syriac, you know, McTominay, MVP of Syriac, had a fabulous season, as you say, echo everything you said there. Eric Ten Hag didn't want to sell Scott McTominay. And I firmly believe that if pure profit wasn't a thing, that wasn't an idea that clubs could exploit to

spend three times the amount or whatever it was Scott McTominay would still be at Manchester United he wouldn't have been sold he was sold purely to allow them to change the squad to get in Xerxe and other players and I

I think he was a victim of pure profit. I see what you're saying. You know, if you don't think he's good enough, I personally think he would be a valuable squad player at Manchester United. Does he get in Liverpool's team? Does he get in Liverpool's team? Does he get in Arsenal's team? Does he get in Chelsea's team? Does he get in Newcastle's team? There's so many, I mean, there's so many Manchester United players that start week to week that wouldn't get in any of those teams you just mentioned there that are not going to be sold this summer. And I don't think Scott McTominay was

I mean, look, if anyone's saying the same about Lukaku and others that had gone to Lange, Aaron Mambasaka got West Ham's Player of the Year. I saw somebody say that he should be back at Manchester United. He was not good enough for Manchester United. But I do think McTominay, there's two schools of thought very quickly. Was he being misused or was he not good enough for the Premier League? And I think there's arguments that could be made on both sides. Was he in the right position? He's playing much further forward at Liverpool.

Napoli than he was at Manchester United in like a pivot if he was playing as one of the 10s now but that'd make a difference Scotland Steve Clarke played him much further forward much more advanced and that's what John McGinn and others used to say in press conferences that he was much better there so I take the point I think Kevin De Bruyne would be fabulous in Naples I think he'll be

you know, the type of thing that you'll see highlights coming up and they'll be playing passes that are out of this world. And wow, why didn't anybody in the Premier League take a punt on him? And you know, that's what it'll be in six months time. And lots of Man City fans will be saying, oh, why didn't we keep him? Why didn't we give him a new contract? You're right about me, Tommy, in that position, he did some of his more effective work for United when he played a little bit further forward himself, didn't he, Cays? And he scored some quite vital goals. I remember seeing him score a big one at Aston Villa, I think last season. But, you know, my...

my point remains, I used to see that Fred McTominay midfield, the Solskjaer midfield, um,

at Old Trafford and sit there and think, these two aren't good enough for what United needs to be, which is title winners, title contenders, winning big trophies. And I don't think that has changed. And I don't always think the revisionism that comes when a player does well somewhere else is always particularly accurate or helpful. Huge game at Wembley on Saturday. I watched it. I had a bit of a dog in the fight. Yeah.

Big admirer of Chris Wilder, Sheffield United manager. They didn't do it. They got done by Sunderland. Sunderland will be in the Premier League with...

Leeds and Burnley next season. They beat Sheffield United 2-1. Congratulations, Sunderland. It's very heartening to see a big club back in the top flight. They finished 14 points behind Sheffield United in third and 24 points behind the two automatically promoted teams. You know where I'm going with this. Have they any chance at all of pulling off a miracle of the century and staying up next season?

Well, I do want to say they had the perfect, in my mind, the perfect playoff campaign. Last minute winner Ballard in the semifinal and then obviously last minute winner at Wembley. The definition of limbs. And a friend of mine ended up getting treated by paramedics in the Sunderland end because he fell down many rows celebrating, but he is fine. And he was very happy to have the scars and the bruises to show for that in the Premier League. To answer your question, I think they're going to get plenty of bruises to carry on that campaign.

that theory there. They're going to get plenty of brews in the Premier League. And I just think the gap is so big now that Sunderland are a massive club, but they would need to spend an extortionate amount to get that squad capable of competing. You know, I would expect the three that come up to be three of the bottom four. Maybe one of them will survive. Maybe Leeds might survive, but...

three of the bottom four will be those three teams that come up. And it's just a real, real problem. And people think, I've said this on social media, people think that's a lazy take from me that, oh, you know, other teams have come up, Brighton, Brentford of yesteryear have come up and solidified and consolidated. I get that, but it's becoming increasingly harder for teams to come up. And I just think Sunderland are...

so far behind, like you said, the top two that came up are so far behind, you know, an Ipswich that came up and are coming straight back down and others that have come up in the past that I would be amazed if they had the squad ready to go to stay up. And we do apologise to any Sunderland fans who are listening. What a negative way to slant this conversation, because it's always a thrill to see the joy of

that comes on the back of a team getting promoted, whether it's traditionally a big team or one of the smaller teams. I'm sure that Charlton are feeling it this, you know, feeling all that joy this morning having won the League One playoff game. But equally, it's hard to escape the reality that we are. And it's, you know, what a slightly depressing way to frame these conversations, but there's no other way of doing it. You mentioned clubs like Brentford and

and Brighton there and Bournemouth. And of course, they've shown that that first season after promotion is the really important season. If you get through that first season and then you get another wave of Premier League money, then you start to have a chance.

But that first season is so, so difficult. This season, the three promoted teams never offered us any hope at all. It was the same last time. So I don't know what the answer is. A friend of mine in football rang me a couple of weeks ago and said, Ian, I've got the idea. I've got the solution. The three teams that come up from the championship should be given a year's grace.

in the Premier League. Not, you know, whatever happens, you can't be relegated. I said to him, I said, great thought will never happen because you're the Premier League clubs would have to vote for that. You know, good luck getting there. Good luck getting there. I put that same, I put that same thought out over on TikTok and let me tell you, the comment section was not very kind to me. So, uh,

Me and your friend there were in agreement, but it will never get voted through. Good luck getting Crystal Palace and Bournemouth and Brentford and Brighton and Fulham and Wolves to vote for that one. That's like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. So I don't know what the answer is. I don't think anybody knows what the answer is. I hope we keep looking for one because it can't go on. It must not be allowed to go on.

you know, kind of teams coming up just as lame, you know, lame ducks. It's just, it's, it's, it should be, promotion should be, feel like the gateway to opportunity rather than, um,

That feeling of inevitability, you're just going to get the door slammed in your face. You're just going to get your door slammed in your face and kicked all the way back down the stairs again, back into champ. It's very difficult. Tottenham lost 22 times and were never really at risk of going down. Lost 22 games, were never, there was no real jeopardy that they were ever going to go down. And that shows you how bad you can be. And yet there's three teams that are significantly worse than that. I think that underlines the point. Absolutely. So my friend, we're almost at the end. Do you have a moment of the weekend?

For me, it was Jack Hinshaw would score in a backheel against Tottenham because he's had a brilliant season, I think, for Brighton and he's going to go away with England under-21s. And I don't know, aesthetically, very, very pleasing moment for me to see that backheel goal. Yeah, that was peak Tottenham, I think, wasn't it? I mean, look, they've been on the source for three days. You can't really, we'll give them a free pass for that one. Under-21 European Championships this summer, is it not, Nathan? And you'll be covering that for us, won't you? Yes.

Yeah, so we'll see. Lee Carsley and England, obviously their title defence is some very, very good teams out there. So yeah, Hinshaw will be part of that. Liam De Lappe, wherever he ends up moving, he wants his future sorted. I still expect that to be Manchester United, but we shall see. And yeah,

Yeah, big summer for England under-21s. Okay, well, Nathan will be there, so like I say, make sure you follow him on all the relative social platforms and you'll get the best content on Manchester United and indeed the under-21s this summer. My moment of the weekend very quickly, very obvious, but I loved it. I was at Anfield

As I've said about 54 times, I was nervous about the Trent Alexander-Arnold situation. I'd been there two weeks ago when he was booed against Arsenal and I thought it was truly awful. We're aware of the debate. We're aware of both sides of it. We don't need to get into that again. But I went there yesterday thinking, goodness me, is this kid going to get mauled when he walks up to get his medal? And thankfully...

Um, I don't know how it happened. I presume it just happened organically. I presumed it was just human nature doing its thing. People in Anfield clearly making that emotional judgment call of we've told him what we think of his decision two weeks ago, and now we can just let it, let it lie and let him celebrate with everybody else. Um, there wasn't, I don't, there was hardly a boo all afternoon. And when he came up to get his medal from Alan Hansen, the ovation he got from, uh,

from everybody, including Crystal Palace fans, actually inside Anfield was fabulous. He responded by raising both his hands up. Alan Hansen gave him a hug. He kissed his badge and off it went. He described it later as one of the best days of his life. I'd be surprised if he really thinks that, given how nervous he must have been beforehand. But I think that comment was probably coming from...

maybe some from a point of great relief, I would imagine. Trent Alexander-Arnold, you've had a magnificent career at Liverpool and what a way to sign off with your second Premier League medal handed to you by a Liverpool legend in front of 50, 60,000 people all singing your name. Lovely. So there we go. Thank you, Nathan, for being with us, my friend. Always good to see you.

So this has been the 210th episode of It's All Kicking Off. And as it happens, our very last one. Nobody wants to get all Gary Lineker about this. So all I would like to say is thank you to Chris Sutton, a colleague who has become a great friend and more over the last two seasons. Chris, you really are the best of men. Thanks also to those of you who have taken the time and the trouble to listen to us twice a week.

since we started. I know there's an enormous choice of podcasts out there and the fact you've chosen to listen to ours has always meant an awful lot to Chris and I. Thanks for your comments and your feedback and your suggestions and your love and maybe at least some of you will be pleased to know that if you keep your eyes and

ears open, there will be something else coming along to entertain you very, very soon. To everybody at Mail Sport and on our podcast team, and of course to Henry Williams, our producer, thank you. Henry, I'm sorry Arsenal didn't win the league or indeed anything. The bottom line is that Chris and I just couldn't wait forever. So for the 210th and final time, I'm Ian Leighton and this has been It's All Picking Up.

Hello, Gordon Smart here from Whistleblowers, football's most original new podcast. Each week I'm joined by two men who've seen the game from very different angles, Ian Ladyman and Mark Clattenburg. This isn't just another round table of safe opinions or ex-player echo chambers, this is football told differently. I bring the perspective that's long been left out, the referee, the guy everybody blames but no one ever hears from. Hugh the Tiny Violins. I'm the witty, relatable Scottish broadcaster, the filling in this football sandwich.

stuck between the whistleblower and the wind-up merchant. And I am the grumpy journalist who's covered the game for 30 years and had bust-ups with every manager going. Well, I prefer experienced truth-teller, actually. I've refereed Champions League finals, Premier League chaos and seen what really happens behind the scenes. We'll dive into the stories no one else tells, what happens in the ref's room before kick-off, why the clubs leak stories and who's actually running things behind the curtain. This is Football From The Inside Out.

Whistleblowers. Gordon Smart, Mark Clattenburg, Ian Ladyman. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

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