Why Eddie Howe is the 'greatest coach of his generation'
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Hello and welcome to It's All Kicking Off. Chris Sutton isn't here today. He's hiding under a rock somewhere after Celtic's defeat to Rangers on Sunday, I would imagine. But we have two very worthy stand-ins. Dominic King is with me for the duration. But first, it's Craig Hope, our recently promoted chief football reporter and very familiar Newcastle expert. Newcastle have won the Carabao Cup, of course. And I think Bruno Guimaraes, their Brazilian midfielder, put it best there.

This is one of the best days of my life, he said. For the fans, it's like winning the World Cup. Craig is absolutely spot on with that observation, isn't he? It was incredible. As a journalist, Ian, and I was sat next to you in the press box yesterday, it was quite unnerving. There's no muscle memory for Newcastle reporters to know what to do. We'd never been in this position before. Talking to supporters last night in the hotel and then this morning at the train station,

Everyone was the same. There was a sense of, yeah, it was almost a little bit intimidating winning a trophy, having never been here in our lifetimes. But wow, once you overcame that shock and that emotion, and it was just...

Sensational, the way the team played. They didn't just go there and win. They were superior from the first minute to half-time into the 90th minute. It was just an incredible team performance. Fully deserved. In my reflections afterwards, I brought a lot of it back to Eddie Howe because...

There's a temptation to look in from the outside and to believe this is a club powered by Saudi money, the arrival of a new super club post-takeover. Yes, the money is held for two things. They've bought well and Eddie's fingerprints are all over that recruitment, but not just that.

The players he's inherited, every player under his care, he makes them better. He's a wonderful coach. For all the reasons why Newcastle won a trophy yesterday, Eddie Howe is absolutely at the very top of that list. He's not just the best coach, English coach of his generation. I think he's the best coach of his generation. It was a real victory for management. Not just what he's done in three years at the club, but then even still in the isolation period,

of yesterday to find a way to beat a team who are better than Newcastle. Liverpool, by definition, in terms of league position, they're a better team than Newcastle. They didn't look it yesterday. That was because of the way Eddie Howe set them up.

the way he motivated them, the way he picked on those marginal gains. He admitted afterwards the set-piece routine that he'd worked on for two weeks. He hadn't come off in training. He said, not once in a fortnight. Well, he came off yesterday when it mattered. And I was just so pleased for Eddie, for the supporters, for the players. They're a good, genuine bunch. And at the top of it, leading it all, they've got a brilliant, genuine manager.

Interesting what you say there about the set-piece routine and how Newcastle had worked on it. I mean, if Liverpool had worked out that it's never the best idea to put a small bloke on a big bloke, then maybe they might have been able to do something about it. You said there, Craig, you said that you think that Eddie is the best English coach of his generation. You also said the best coach of his generation. I mean, are you throwing Guardiola and Klopp and Arteta and others into that pot? That's a bold statement if so.

Yeah, I'll qualify with the word coach, you know, to coach, not coach as in the best manager, but his coaching, that Monday to Friday improvement of players. It's quite incredible. Would any of those managers you've mentioned there, would they have achieved what Eddie Howe has achieved with Joe Linton? He inherited a centre forward who was going backwards. He's turned him into...

a midfield destroyer. Joe Linton was incredible yesterday. Now, my wife was there with my two boys and my wife doesn't know a great deal about football, but I got back in the hotel last night and

And she just said, wow, Joe Linton. And I think if you're not a football fan or a keen football observer, even if you are, I think you would have watched that yesterday and you would have been blown away by the superhuman performance that was Joe Linton from the very first minute. His cheering tackles as if the goals throughout be that in front of the Newcastle end or the Liverpool end. He set the tone. I thought he was just monstrous in the middle. And to come back to the point I made about Eddie Howe,

Joe Linton isn't that player without Eddie Howe recognising the potential, without that coaching. There were six of the team yesterday, six of the players who featured at some point on the field for Newcastle were at the club pre-takeover, were part of a team under Steve Bruce that was about to be relegated. So that is what I mean by coaching. The coaching, the improvement, the betterment of players.

Sounds like your wife knows a little bit more about football than you give her credit for. Maybe get her on next week. Get her on next week. Look, for people, there'll be people out there, not many hopefully, there will be kind of cynics saying, why is everybody getting so worked up about the Cowboy Cup, for goodness sake? Just explain to us the significance of this trophy coming as it does at the end of a 70-year period without one.

Yeah, it was the 70-year domestic weight in 56 years since the Fairs Cup. And it's an accumulation of hurt, of pain, but also as well a sad acceptance that it will never be us. There was a feeling that Newcastle, while anyhow I was answering questions last week on the club,

Being cursed, for goodness sake. I think even with the advent of the Saudi takeover, there was still a feeling. There was this feeling two years ago, when they were beaten by Manchester United, that it will just never be Newcastle. That's why there was that feeling of shock. You looked around the press box yesterday, and I walked down to be amongst the fans when the trophy presentation happened. There was grown men crying, there genuinely was. I've just bumped into two friends on the street there who just said on full time, the emotion just came pouring out. It's that...

It's that build-up over such a long period and the feeling that it might never happen in your lifetime. The 70-year wait had extended to the biblical definition of a lifetime, three score years and ten. To that end, it might have gone another lifetime. So for it to happen, that is what it means. And you could just feel that last night. You can feel it this morning. We'll feel it all week and we'll feel it for a long time yet.

Please don't say that about three score and ten. That means I've only got 15 years left. That's a sobering thought for everybody. Look, one thing I thought was interesting, just to digress, was at full time, I actually, as someone who obviously wasn't as invested in the Newcastle story as maybe you and other people, trying to be slightly more objective, I guess, is that I thought the scenes at full time were not quite as like,

not that they weren't excited and, and, and not, it wasn't noisy. It wasn't quite the, um, the emotion in terms of the tension,

etc. But I think that was just because the way the game had gone, because I think that they, because it had been much more comfortable for Newcastle than anybody ever expected, that by the time full-time came, those 35,000, however many it was, Geordies in the stadium, had already got used to the idea that they were winning the Cup.

because he knew they were in the cup with about half an hour left, which says everything about the way they played and everything for the way that Liverpool played or didn't perform. Right, quickly, Craig, tell us what happened last night. What did the fans do? And more importantly, what did the players do Sunday night in London? What followed full-time?

Yeah, so the plan always was if they won, they were going to delay the return back to Newcastle and they went down to the Box Park. Wembley Box Park on Wembley Way, they went in there and they had about an hour or so with the likes of Alan Shearer, James Bay, others. They had their pictures taken, they were on the balcony. Jason Tindall was leaning over. Andy Carroll seemed to be there at one point. Andy Carroll, Paul Dummett,

John Beresford, Warren Barton, Steve Watson, all the former players were in there. Sadly, by the time I got in, the players had just left and they got the flight back up to Newcastle. No coincidence. You walk in the front door, they all run out the back door. We've seen that before. And the team are going to Dubai tonight. Now, it's meant to be Dubai for a warm weather training. I think it'll be Dubai for a warm weather stag do.

Yeah, I can't imagine. And that was another element that was lost yesterday. They've actually qualified for Europe next year by winning the Carabao Cup, albeit it is the Iron Curtain Stag do, the Conference League. And now, I suppose, we speak there and we joke about that. They are in Europe. But now what they've got to do is if they want to maintain this journey, if they want to keep

Alexander Rizak, Sandro Ternali, Bruno Guimaraes, Anthony Gordon at the club. They've now got to go in the remaining 10 matches. They've got to go and qualify for the Champions League. It's all very well winning the Carabao Cup. And I was saying this to supporters last night. One of them said to me, they've got the Cup now. These players will want to stay.

I said, flip that. This might just actually act as a punctuation mark. Rather than it being a comma, it might be a full stop. And some of those players, if they don't get the Champions League, might look at it and say, my work there is done. I've delivered the trophy. I've got my legacy moment. Now I'm going to go on and achieve my ambitions elsewhere. That's why it's so important to get in that top five now.

Yeah, I mean, look, it's a nuanced debate and it's probably a debate for another time. But with Newcastle's interesting financial situation, the commitment they're about to make towards a new stadium, the story that you broke last week, the new one they're going to build next to the current one, the limitations they have under the Premier League spending rules, et cetera, et cetera. We know about that. Do you think it's possible they can get through next summer without selling a

big name or would the Champions League and the Champions League money which for a club like Celtic for example who got to last 32 this time was about 90 million I think could that hold that off for another year or is there inevitability that someone at some level will have to go?

Yeah. There's two elements to this. From a financial perspective, if Newcastle qualify for the Champions League this year, I think they'll be in a relatively strong position with regards to PSL and they'll be able to say to rival clubs and the players, no, no, we don't have to sell you. We're on a solid footing here. Yeah.

The other side of that, Ian, is that players might want to go for the reasons I've just mentioned there. A player's career is short. Alexander Rizak is 26 next year and he might be looking at it thinking, you know, in four or five years' time, my peak years will be gone. I've got to strike now. And I've got no issue with that. A player's career is short. You think of what age...

We are now in my 40s and my 50s. If someone said to you at 31, 32, you will no longer be at the peak of your powers. That earning potential will be gone. I've got no problem with players moving through. I really don't. I think come this summer, they might just have the likes of Isaac Hussein

I've given you three years. I've got Barcelona, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Chelsea, whoever it may be, and I want to go now. And that is when they've got the decision to make. He's got three years left on his contract. His value is at an absolute premium. It's probably not the morning for this. Supporters might not want to hear this, but I do think come the summer, and he's accurate Gordon. Craig, Craig, Craig, sorry to interrupt. Why would he go to Chelsea? You just mentioned Chelsea. Why would you go to Newcastle? Why would you leave Newcastle to go to Chelsea?

No, I don't think he would. Do you know what I mean? Don't sort of get into this sort of thought now that Chelsea would be a better long-term proposition than Newcastle because they wouldn't. Players like to live in London though, Dom. Players like to live in London. They do.

Yeah, you're saying to me that they can't have the days out in London? I'm just saying, if in London, play's families like... He's made a really strong point at the start there. If Eddie Howe is the coach that he says he is, and the body of work that he's putting together is obviously very compelling, if you're a player and you think you can unlock more from yourself...

Why on earth would you go to that basket case just because you want to live in London? Who aren't going to be challenging for a trophy ahead of Newcastle, that I don't see in the next couple of years. He's got more chance of having a more successful Premier League career and winning things with Newcastle than Chelsea.

100%. Yeah, absolutely. But Craig's wider point about not holding it against players, especially foreign players, who don't feel the same sense of emotional pull towards a football club as local players might. The fact that they might want to spread their wings, make the most of their peak years. But look at Salah. Sorry? Look at Salah. Salah scores 40 goals for Liverpool in his first season. He loses the Champions League final. Everybody's saying he'll go to Real Madrid or Barcelona. Yeah.

ends up signing a contract and makes himself an idol. Why can't Isaac do that? Why can't Isaac stay at Newcastle for seven years? Because Salah was at a football club that, it was Liverpool, and they were kind of,

They were closer to the top there than Newcastle are now. He could see Premier League titles. Isaac might look at his life at Newcastle and think, great, this is great. I can see Champions League football, but can I see us winning the Champions League? Can I see us winning the Premier League? And the answer to both those questions, with the greatest respect to Newcastle, would probably be no. So I think that's the difference. I think that's the difference. I think you're right, Ian.

It does come back to that. You know, it's the immediacy. Yes, Dom spoke there about St. Newcastle for the next five, six, seven years. And within that time, there'll be a new training ground. There'll be a new stadium. But by the point the training ground and the stadium arrive, Alexander Izak will be 31. Bruno Guimaraes will be 33. So these people are looking at the absolute immediacy of tomorrow. That's what they're bothered about. And also as well, it comes back to in...

It comes back to money. Now, Alexander Rezac is Newcastle's top earner on, say, around £140,000, £150,000 a week. He knows in the open market, the current market, that one of the best strikers in the world is probably worth double that. Newcastle can't go to that level as it stands because of PSR. And also, if they did make an exception and they know this, you've then got three or four others knocking on your door saying they want parity. So it's a really difficult situation.

And if he's being told you can go to Barcelona, Real Madrid, Arsenal, double your salary, put a zero on the end of it and have more of a chance tomorrow of winning the Premier League and the Champions League, that is why. I'm not doing down your castle. And we shouldn't allow yesterday's victory to cloud this. That is the reality of where they're at now. Players aren't stupid. They've watched the club go three windows without bringing in a single first-team signing. It's not their fault. It's PSR. They are hamstrung by the rules. But if that's the reality...

you've got to face up with the fact that some of these players might want to go. And, before we move on, it could end up having what I call the Philip Coutinho effect. I remember standing in a very small press conference room with Jurgen Klopp seven, eight years ago, the day that it became clear that Coutinho was leaving Anfield for Barcelona. Klopp looked like somebody had just shot his dog.

Coutinho was absolutely on top of his game at that point. He was part of a growing, emerging Liverpool team. They didn't want to sell him. They sold him and they bought, well, they just bought Van Dijk, but essentially that money paid for Van Dijk and it paid for Alisson. And how long was it? The next season, Dom, they won the Champions League or the season after, whatever. They spent that money in such a way that it took them to the next level. And that could happen to Newcastle if they get 150 million quid for Izak.

Yeah, the flip side of that is if they do get the Champions League...

this year and they're able to give Isak a little bit of extra money and they get one more season out of those stars. That's what I always come back to. Getting in that top five is so important. This is a real crossroads moment for the club. Don't be distracted by the trophy yesterday. The trophy yesterday is wonderful. It's great. It's something that had to happen. But getting in that top five and giving themselves that financial might and that scope to go out and bring players in and to keep those they've got alive

It's huge. It's absolutely massive for them now. Yeah. Yeah, the challenge for Newcastle now will be to go to Dubai, come back. It might not harm them, the fact that they're out of the FA Cup. I don't know what your view is on that. But come back, reset and try and lift themselves and go again for the rest of the season, which is not always easy after a big high like this. Dom, for Liverpool, it'll be similar. They've got to find a

They've got to find a way back, but they've got to find a way back from something completely different. Very, very quickly, how did it feel from the other end of the ground on Sunday afternoon, watching what was really a complete no-show from a team that's supposed to be the best in the country? Well, it is the best in the country. Worst Liverpool performance in a final since 1996 against Manchester United. A very, very strange afternoon. And there was a...

There was a bit of toxicity amongst the fan base. I would suggest there was a bit of complacency beforehand. People just thinking that they had to turn up and win, which was never going to be the case. And you could see after 10 minutes how impressively Newcastle had set up and how aggressive and how determined they were to win and Liverpool couldn't raise themselves. There was a feeling that...

Paris Saint-Germain had almost beaten Liverpool twice in a week from the deflation of the penalty shootout elimination from the Champions League. But when I say about the toxicity, it was like I went down to the concourse at half-time and there was thousands around the bars drinking who didn't even know Newcastle had gone ahead. And there was lots that left around 18 minutes who were just shrugging their shoulders. And

I was looking at some things on social media last night, some debating points, and one of the questions that was raised was, if Raitt's slot season, if he only wins the Premier League, I'm going to put an underline and italicise only, because I've never heard a more ridiculous question posed in my life before.

Liverpool have exceeded expectations beyond anything this year. I said to you at the beginning of the season, if Liverpool got into the top four and got to a cup final, it would have been the most remarkable debut season from slot given what he'd taken, what he was being asked to follow.

And now there's almost this sort of discourse or this narrative kind of developing in areas that suggests that if Liverpool win the Premier League, and it's not a given yet, it is not a given because they looked shot yesterday. There was no way back. And I think for the first time he picked the wrong team and he got his substitutions wrong early, which he hasn't been doing. But...

As I say, going back, there's a sort of narrative suggesting Liverpool have been lucky and Liverpool aren't going to be very good champions. They could end up winning the title and there's going to be all kinds of negativity around them, which I find absolutely bizarre.

Yeah, I mean, look, that's rubbish. That's absolutely rubbish. Yes, I know it is. I know you know it is. And I don't think for one minute that if and when Liverpool win the title, that amount of nonsense coming from supporters from other clubs, especially on social media, will be allowed to detract from the achievement of slot on his players, especially lifting a Premier League trophy in front of their own fans, which of course they weren't able to do in 2020 because of the COVID situation.

if it happens it'll be the first time that Liverpool supporters have seen this for 30 something years 35 years 35 years so I don't think

People can say what they want. It would be a magnificent achievement from Slott in his first season. I want to ask you a question and then I'm going to ask you both something. So I just want a very brief answer on this, Dom, if I can. Does this defeat tell us anything significant about Liverpool and where they are this season? And is, sorry, it's a double question. Is there really any chance they can blow this 12-point lead? Everton up next,

at home on the night of April 2nd? The first part of your question, it tells us that there's a big summer ahead. There's a big summer ahead. And it also tells us that some players have been used too often. Draven Birch looked

has looked out on his feet for three or four weeks. Wataru Endo should have been on the pitch yesterday. Chiesa has been knocking on the door, in my view, for a while and should have played instead of Jota. I think... And Alisson should have played instead of Kelleher yesterday. I think if Alisson's in goal, he saves Dan Burns' header. I just do. Can they blow the league?

No, no, they've got enough chances, but I don't think they're going to do this. I don't think they're going to knock out five wins straight away, five off the bat to win it. I think it'll be a little bit more complex than that. It may not be a possession. Right, come on. Listen, I want to talk about that first goal. You mentioned it there. Okay. Craig, you're a tall bloke. I'm a small bloke.

you've played football at a higher level, I haven't. Dom, you know a lot about football. Let's get to it. I asked Slott in the press conference afterwards why Alexis McAllister was marking Dan Byrne for the first goal. To be fair to him, lots of managers would not have gone into detail of explanation that he did, especially having just lost a final. But he gave me a very, very detailed explanation that even I was able to understand, if not agree with. So this is it, essentially. They were zonal marking, okay? That means that all their big blokes...

we're marking zones close to goal. The feeling is that Dan Byrne is one of Newcastle's greatest attacking threats, will attack one of those areas close to goal when the ball comes in and therefore be picked up by one of those big guys in those zones.

The fact that he chose not to come close to goal and stay out where he was, Liverpool's view is nobody can score from there. Nobody can head it in from there. He's too far out. If he stays out there, it's fine. McAllister can block him. And even if he gets it, he won't score. Well, sounds like a great plan until it goes wrong. And it went wrong because he did score. The two-year, quickly. We know that Zona Mark is very popular, very prevalent in the Premier League these days. What...

What has happened to the days of your biggest blokes marking their biggest blokes at corners? I just don't really, I don't really get it. Dan Burns, what is he, Craig, six foot? Six, seven. Six foot seven. I mean, he's clearly the main attacking threat in that situation. Look after him, Craig, you first.

Yeah, do you know, I thought it was a great question you asked and I'd gone into the press conference thinking, this is ludicrous. Alexis McAllister, I've written him a copy. Dan Byrne's six foot seven, Alexis McAllister's five foot seven. There's a foot difference. But then when I listened to Slott's explanation and he laughed when you asked the question, I thought he could be spiky here, but he actually wasn't. I thought he was really magnanimous during the press conference. I thought he spoke quite well. And his answer to you in particular, I thought,

I walked away from it and I thought, actually, no, that makes sense. No player should be able to score with a header from 14 yards. Now,

I think two things collided there. One, it was the most sensational header of Dan Byrne's life, how he's generated the power, the ball coming at him, the direction, the way it jumps off the turf. Keller has position and just being slightly static, slightly slow, just for that split second. And Don makes a good point. Alison might have got to it. I just think everything came together. And I left that press conference...

Thinking, do you know what? I've actually got a little bit of sympathy with slot because the way they set up and what they did should in theory work. But then Eddie Howe comes in afterwards and he says, no, we've been working on this for two weeks. We'd identified something we could manipulate and exploit. And we spent a fortnight working on it and the score to goal from it. And that made the difference. So that makes it Eddie Howe won on his slot nil.

It does make a difference because 0-0 would have been the greatest first half result of Liverpool's season without a doubt. And that game could have been different second half. Dom, what's wrong with big men marking big men? Well, zonal marking has been an issue debating for 20 years. I remember when Rafa Benitez came to Liverpool and he was going zonal marking and he got beaten by Manchester United 2-1 on a Monday night at Old Trafford. This was in September 2004 and he was going zonal marking with...

and the goals United scored were from corners, and there was uproar about it. So this isn't a new debate. Do you know what I will say about Arne Slott? I'm glad you just raised this. If you'd have asked that question to Jurgen Klopp, you would have gone through the back wall with the response. And other managers. Slott is a very considered man. You can ask him anything.

without fear of recrimination or reproach. You can ask him tactical stuff and he'll speak to you properly. This isn't a skewering of clop, by the way. This is just an insight into the man that you're dealing with. So he's very considerate and the fact that he was able to give you such a detailed answer in those circumstances gives you an idea of his character and his personality.

I stick by what I said. If Alisson's in goal yesterday, Liverpool don't concede that. They just don't. He gets that. I don't agree. Last time I looked, Alisson doesn't have Mr Tickle arms. He's a good goalkeeper. Watch your back again. Just watch the positioning back again.

Just watch the position in the two. Alisson, I'm telling you, people have laughed about me for what I said. I wrote something a few weeks ago about Alisson being the best in the Premier League. I know the speed at which he gets across the box. He does things that are different to any other goalkeeper in the business at the minute. He is absolutely outstanding. He wouldn't have been in the position to be flat-footed. He would have made that save. Newcastle won the game with that goal because it changed everything. Liverpool, it was like

It was like catching somebody with a punch in the final seconds of a round and they're completely wobbled before they come out. That was where the game was won.

if Dan Byrne wasn't aiming for goal that was aiming for someone to come rushing in at the back post to apply the finishing touch you could see how it was all being worked out fair play to Newcastle they got everything spot on they deserved it they absolutely deserved it but I bet you there's a feeling now amongst every Liverpool player amongst the coaching staff and the fans they'd love to play the game again they really would love to play that game again

Yeah, I mean, look, while we're talking about goalkeepers, I think we should also mention that save from Nick Pope, from Curtis Jones. You know, I think I've lost a bit of love for Nick Pope in the last year or so. He's had injury problems, et cetera. I don't know if other people have, but I've kind of, you know, I've almost kind of pigeonholed him as a very good goalkeeper without being an elite goalkeeper. But that was an elite save from Curtis Jones. That one goes in with 25 minutes left and the whole thing could be different.

Right, guys, thanks for that. We've let that section run, but I was enjoying it. Brilliant insight from both of you. Dom, you're going to stay with us. Craig, you're going to probably head back into Bedlam, or if you've got any sense, have a lie down and close your eyes. But no news, I do. I think you'll be going back out the door. It's bed, I need you. Never mind bed. I haven't said it. It's treading everywhere, yeah. Have a lie down. I'll see you late in the week when we get together for England GT, et cetera. And thanks for joining us, pal.

Cheers, guys.

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So, Dom, there was Premier League action, of course, over the weekend. Full Premier League programme, apart from the two teams involved at Wembley on Sunday. Man United finished it off, the schedule, that is, with a 3-0 win at Leicester on Sunday evening. They're up to 13th now. Progress of sorts for Ruben Amrim and his team. Europe, here we come. Now, now, no need for sarcasm. Yeah.

I just want to touch on a couple of things quickly and it revolve around things that people have said. Bruno Fernandes did the post-match chat with Sky after the game, having contributed another significant 90 minutes. And he said something that was a nod to criticism of him from Roy Keane. Roy Keane said,

On the Stick to Football podcast a few weeks ago, I had what's become quite a well-viewed exchange with Ian Wright about Bruno suggesting he wasn't quite up to the levels and he should be a better leader, etc. This is what Fernandes said after the game against Leicester. He admitted that he was motivated by the criticism and a little bit stung by the criticism, saying...

if it's the way he thinks about me as a player, I have to respect that. We know what Dom, as much as I admire Roy Keane, and I've said it many, many times on this podcast, probably the most, the standout Premier League player of my generation as a pundit. He,

He is eminently listenable, as we know. It's hard to take your eyes off the screen when he's on, but I think he's a bit of a shock jock. I don't often hear him say, offer criticism of players that's constructive. It's often kind of the attitude stuff and the roll your sleeves up, be a team player, do your work, look at yourself in the mirror, all the rest of it. You know what? I think his criticism of Bruno was way out of line. You and I have criticised Bruno before on this podcast, suggested that he probably shouldn't be Man Utd captain.

I think he's proved us wrong on that. Hang on a second. I think he's proved us wrong. And I don't think that quote where he says that when Roy Keane speaks, he kind of has to listen and respect it. I don't actually think he does. I don't think he does. I think what Bruno's done for Man United this season speaks for itself.

Yeah, do you know what? I think the way he's responded to this and the way he's dealt with it says an awful lot about him as a character. Yeah, and he's handled himself with a class. I'm absolutely with you at the minute about this shock jock thing.

Because over the last six months, there's been something every week from one of them that's just been... Do you know what? I'd love to ask them. I'd love to ask them what Gary Neville, the player, would have made of Gary Neville, the pundit. I would love to know that. Because...

I would love to know how, as a player, how they would have viewed being spoken of the way they are speaking about players. I think Bruno's done the hat-trick against Sociedad and the way he spoke last night. I just think, fair play to him. It could have been easy to sort of bite back or whatever, but he's handled himself with a bit of class and

I don't like this sort of being put in the stock, so to speak. He's carrying Man United at the minute in exceptionally difficult circumstances. What an awful campaign this has been for the players and most importantly the supporters. The supporters just don't need any more of this nonsense and these constant...

drain of negativity around them they need to sort of they need some balance and I'm fully impressed by how Bruno Fernandes has handled himself really

Yeah, I think, look, I think, I happen to think that's the podcast you're talking about, I think it's a good podcast. I actually think Neville is the best football pundit in this country. I think you and I probably disagree on that. I think there's a lot of, I think there is usually a lot of balance and depth to what Gary says. I just think with Roy sometimes, it's a bit soundbitey on occasion. I'm not saying that he never offers anything more because he does, but on this occasion, I think it was a bit over the top and

hard to back up and hard to back up. And I just think that sometimes, I just think that sometimes players, and I know they do cut themselves off from a lot of this noise. And I think it's respectful of Bruno to say that he has to listen because it's Roy and Roy is a former storied winning Manchester United captain, all of which is true. But I just think sometimes a player is also within his right to say, you know what? I don't agree with that. That's over the top. I don't care who it is who said it. I'm just going to ignore it.

And this might have been one of those occasions. Well, James Madison had a little bite back last month, didn't he? When he'd scored against Man Utd at Roy Keane. But just humour me on this one. You were around that Manchester United team for years. You knew them as players. You knew everything that was going on then. You knew how they looked at themselves. You knew how they...

responded to pundit criticism and you knew what we felt. I do, I do too. I knew exactly what was... I would be fascinated to sort of see them as players looking at them as pundits and hearing what was being said. I just think, I really do think it would be interesting and I'd love to ask him that question. It's a really good point and I have put that question to Gary. I put it to him about five,

four years ago, three years ago. And I sat down with him for an interview at his offices in, um, just off Albert Square in central Manchester. And the thing I put, the way I framed it was that there'd been a, a Dominic Calvert-Lewin had been on Monday Night Football, um, as a game analyst and it was an Everton game and he was injured and couldn't play in that game. And, um,

Everton lost the game and Calvert-Lewin was standing there, you know, offering analysis on why his team had lost the game. And I said to Gary, if that had been you back in the day and you'd have been captain of Manchester United and say, let's say for example, John O'Shea, say, just pick a name, Darren Fletcher, I'd been unavailable to play for you.

because of injury and he'd spent the night in a TV studio dissecting your failures to win a football match you would have gone mental the next day when he came back into training and Gary would have said to me he said yeah I would but the difference is that was then and this is now the world has changed

Yeah, it has. So I did put that to him, you know, poacher turn gamekeeper and all the rest of it. And, you know, that was Gary's reply that the world had moved on. Anyway, Jim Ratcliffe, United minority owner, has also been talking again, this time an interview in the Sunday Times.

And I just want to pick one thing out that he said. He said, this is what Jim Markey said about the Glazers. They are really decent people, polite and civilized. They are the nicest people on the planet. There isn't a bad bone in Joel Glazer's body.

body then talks about predecessors Ed Woodward and Richard Arnold I wouldn't have tolerated them Richard didn't understand football Ed didn't have the credentials to manage the club he was an accountant they've made a complete cock up of it shocking really well

I've never heard Glazer described in those terms before. A family of venture capitalists who've essentially taken Manchester United to the point of financial oblivion if you take what Jim Rackley said last week.

at face value. He said that United were about to run out of money by Christmas. Equally, Jim's not made a brilliant job of his own first 12 months in charge at Manchester United. If he wants to fire shots at Ed Woodward and Richard Arnold,

And finally, I want to ask you, Dom, brief comment on that, but also, how's this whole saga about the Man United Stadium, Wembley of the North, et cetera? You can see it from the Peak District. You can see it from Liverpool. You can see it from space. How's that been viewed down the other end of the East Lancs Road in Liverpool?

Right, well... Sorry, lots of unravel there, I know. Right, on Sir Jim, you and I, Ian, both know, if anybody's listening to this who's unfamiliar with the dealings of media, many of his stature have people around them to advise them when they speak to the media. I would think Jim's media advisor should have a word with them to say, Jim, I think,

So, Jim, it's probably best you don't speak for a while. The more he says, the more incredulous it is. To say that about the Glazers, to say that about the Glazers, for the misery they have caused for 20 years,

My God, where's the sense of awareness? Right, mate, there's an England game coming up. Well, there's two England games coming up this weekend. Albania on Friday. Latvia, mighty Latvia, ranked about 150 in the world next Monday. Lots of hoo-ha from people like me about Thomas Tuchel's decision to recall your mate Jordan Henderson into the squad.

Cannot let this podcast go by without canvassing your opinion on that. Jordan, of course, will be 36 within a few days of the World Cup kicking off in America in the summer of 2026.

Yeah. I was very, very surprised. He was very, very surprised and he is very, very emotional about it all as well too. It broke his heart last summer to not be included in the Euros. He was in a very... He's only going to Saudi then, should he? No. Sorry, that was necessary for me. No, it's not. Carry on. Carry on, Dom. No, no, no, it's fine. Yeah.

Yeah, it broke his heart not to go last year. And I think if Gareth... People say, oh, you know him, you would say this, but I've got no problem going on record. I think I said it to you last summer when we were doing our Euro podcast daily. He should have been in the squad because none of the nonsense that happened between the players and the media and the agendas and whatever would have happened had he been there. I can tell you that with absolute certainty. He wouldn't have allowed that to happen. He wouldn't have allowed that to happen.

those sort of bad feelings to manifest, he would have kept them focused. People might be raising an eyebrow when I say that, but I would point them in the direction of Matt Barlow's excellent column this morning about the leadership that Jordan provides. It's a different kind of leadership to...

To others, but he sets a tone. Is he going to play all the time? I don't know. He's in good form for Ajax. Ajax have recently changed their style. It's a more catanaccio, basically got an Italian manager at the moment. And Jordan's basically a midfield anchor who hasn't got to bomb forward like he was at Liverpool. He's just sitting and dictating the tempo. He's conserving his energy. Yeah.

But it's what he'll offer around the squad that I think he's being brought back for. You can see the way Thomas Tuchel has selected this team. He wants to experience it. It's being built to win now because that's what he's been brought in to do. It was a surprise. I dare think if Jordan speaks during the week that he will convey that too.

Yeah, I'll just say, interesting insight, Dom. Like I say, you've known Jordan for a long 15 years or more. I want to, I'll just say a couple of things that need you to counter them. But what I will say is that if that's position that he's playing for Ajax, kind of sitting deep, et cetera, well, you know, we've got one of those already called Declan Rice, captain of a fine player for Arsenal. And secondly, you know, I heard Thomas, I was with Thomas last Friday, the squad announcement, when he talked about the,

the reasons for recalling Jordan and points to things that you've addressed there about mentality and bringing a calmness and a sense of maturity to the squad. But if you've got an England squad of 23, 24 players, and you need to recall somebody who hasn't played,

for a long time and is of a certain age just to bring a bit of that into your squad then you've really got to ask yourself what on earth the rest of the players are doing because there are other players in and around the England group admittedly not all of them are in this squad because of injury but I'll talk about Harry Kane I'll talk about

uh, Declan Rice. I will talk about Harry Maguire. I will talk about Kyle Walker. I will talk about John Stones. I will talk about Jordan Pickford. If you can't get a sense of, uh, uh, like say maturity, responsibility and understanding of what it means to play for England out of that lot, then we've got without bringing Jordan back,

then we've got a problem. Don, before we go, do you have a moment of the weekend for me? I most certainly do. Chris Wilder singing with the Sheffield United fans after the Derby win. I've seen the video during the rounds last night. Absolutely brilliant. I love Chris Wilder in the fact that he never forgets his roots. One of the people. Loves the club. I just thought that was brilliant.

Well, I'm glad that you raised it. I'm also a little bit distressed given that that was mine, but it's okay. I can tap dance and think on my feet. I don't think I'm out of line to say that. I know Chris Wilder a little bit, and I did drop him a message at about four o'clock yesterday afternoon just saying, well done on the win. And when I hadn't heard back from him by midnight, I thought, oh, aye, aye.

I know exactly what's going on here. And a quick look on social media before bedtime, and there he was, standing on a chair in his local, doing exactly what Dom just said he did. And I woke up this morning at seven o'clock to a very short message that just said, thanks.

I think there might be a hangover involved. I think there might be a hangover involved. I did also, by the way, love Chris's post-match quote, not one to hide his emotions, Chris Wilder. He'd been irritated before kickoff by the fact that Sheffield Wednesday manager Danny Roll had suggested that Sheffield United might play a bit of long ball football

Chris Wilder said afterwards, I don't think he should start mind games when he's not won anything. It's a great time to be a Sheffield United fan. We have found many ways to win a game of football. We have 82 points, whereas Sheffield Wednesday are on 51. Their season is over.

Done. I think that's the way to put it. I think that's the definition of putting somebody back in their box. 1-0, of course, the Blades beat the Owls at Hillsborough to complete a Steel City double for the season. Interesting what Chris said there about...

Sheffield United having 82 points. They don't, of course. They have 80 points, but Chris is just making his point that actually they've amassed 82 points. They should be top of the league, but they're not because they've had two taken away from them for previous financial irregularities. That is something that

absolutely obsessed not obsesses but it certainly irritates Chris at the moment because it was things that happened before he was back at the Football Club and can you imagine Dom given how tight that race is between Leeds Sheffield United and Burnley at the top if Sheffield United were to miss out by a point can you imagine can you can you imagine anyway I did have another one lined up just as well given you've nicked my moment of the weekend mine's a shorter one

I just loved the Nottingham Forest player, Jota Silva, blowing kisses to Morgan Gibbs-White after Gibbs-White set him up for Forest's fourth goal at Ipswich. There are many ways to say thank you to a teammate for laying one on a plate for you. And that was a very nice way of doing it. A couple of kisses for Morgan Gibbs-White on the occasion of Nuno Espirito Santos' 50th Premier League game in charge of Forest.

And Morgan Gibbs White finished his weekend by getting a phone call from the FAA telling him that he'd been called up, which he should have been in the first place. He should have, absolutely. Into Thomas Tuchel's England squad. It seems as though that would be as a replacement for Cole Palmer. Right, Dom. Do you want me to blow you kisses? Do you want me to blow you kisses at the end of this? I know you love me. I know you love me. You don't need to. Those will be the only kisses I'll be getting this week.

Look, thanks for putting aside the pain of Sunday, Dom. I know it's been a long afternoon for you as a Liverpool fan. I know you took your boys to the game. That must have been a long old journey home. But that is football. If I can say something to you. That is football.

It can enrich you one day and it can kill you the next. I think Liverpool will have their day in the sun between now and the end of the season and it should involve them picking up the most important trophy of all. Go on, Dom.

I was just going to say, if you know anything about football, you enjoy the good days and you recognise when a team's beat you and you desire to win, you take your medicine and you say, thank you, well done and congratulations to them because that's what football is. If you're crabbing your moan and things like that, it says more about you as a person. Newcastle have waited an awful long time for a day like that and to see the happiness of the people on the tube and going back to the station...

they deserve to enjoy it absolutely fabulous football club fabulous city they deserve the day that's a perfect way to finish I think thanks for being with us everybody this has been It's All Kicking Off