From Keto/Carnivore to Ray Peat Bioenergetics with Mike Fave
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Today we have a friend of the show because he's friends with Henry, who's our bioenergetic farmer. So we we we graft him in and he's someone who are you allowed to say where you are? Yeah, I'm in Costa Rica. He's in Parks Unknown hanging out with jaguars and sloths. You can't over there. Is that the secret to bioenergetics to eat slow moving creatures?

I don't, if you saw a sloth in the wild, I'm not sure that you'd actually want to eat it. I know it's got like stuff going on and stuff, right? Yeah, it's not, it's like looks cute in the pictures, but when it's out in the wild, it's a different, different ball game. But we have Mike Fave with us. How you doing?

Great. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me, David. Yeah, it's great to have you on. We want to talk about the transitions between keto and carnivore world and low-carb world versus the repeat bioenergetic world. And as someone who has been in both worlds, I can tell you that the transition is not an easy one for a lot of folks. And I've interviewed a lot of folks in the keto and carnivore world. I was into low-carb before it was cool, you know, and...

Um, you know, then I, then I, uh, you know, I started understanding that maybe there was another way down the mountain of, uh, the metabolic dysfunction of our American standard diet. And, uh, so, you know, first I started understanding the seed oils are the bigger problem than the carbs. And, uh, then I discovered Ray P and got to know him before he passed for a few years, had him on some shows, historic shows.

uh panel you should watch my big fat panel have you seen that where ray pete comes in by phone and i have uh tucker goodrich goodrich i watched that yes sir peter dobermilsky and of hyperlipid and dr kate and that i actually saw that one i thought that one was um great especially when you guys started talking about reductive stress and you think you kind of like mind blown dr shanahan about reductive stress brad marshall and ray were going on that yeah

Yeah, that was a great episode. You know, so I've been around these different worlds and, you know, I've tried to just see where the patterns of truth lie. And, you know, I'm still on a quest to learn. You know, I thought that you've done a lot of videos on YouTube talking about keto and carnivore, low carb versus the bioenergetic thing. And you get a lot of your clients that you're working with are people who

kind of make the move from that paradigm to the bioenergetic paradigm, right? Yes, that's correct. There's a lot of places to start, but just a little background on you and why you've become a source of authority, you would say, I guess, that you have put this platform together?

Yeah, so I actually have a background working in the ICU as an RN. So I was doing that for six years before I actually was working in the bioenergetic sphere, working with nutrition along the line. So I had one foot

in modern medicine and also in one foot in the alternative health sphere, the diet sphere. So during the time I was doing all of the ICU work during the pandemic, I was doing the podcast with Jay Energy Balance and I was also working with clients. And before I had ever gotten into working with clients, I had run the gauntlet of dietary experiments. So I had done keto, carnivore, low carb, intermittent fasting, vegan, bodybuilding, all this type of stuff.

And the end of the road for me was bioenergetics. Now, I didn't necessarily land in bioenergetics and do like just live on the milk and orange juice and liver and oyster stuff. It was more the principles and the ideas that came out of Ray's work.

were what was important to me or what were the takeaways for me. And then the implementation of those things wound up being a bit different because I didn't necessarily do so hot on the orange juice and milk setup. I don't tolerate dairy very well. So it didn't really work for me. So I had to kind of figure out a way around that. And so I started playing around with the principles. So that's the content that I make. A part of it is energy balance with Jay. And then also my own content is talking about

the principles of the different diets, whether it's paleo carnivore keto or bioenergetic and kind of looking at them and comparing them and contrasting them and talking about why things work in different contexts. Uh, is this the best strategy for that given context? What is the actual, what are actual underlying mechanisms? And then what are the actual solutions that we could do to solve these different problems? So those are things that I'm focusing on because a lot of my work now is specifically around helping people with a variety of different disease states,

a variety of different dietary backgrounds to build out their own personalized systems so that they can maintain their health over the long term and also achieve their specific health goals. So I am more into an individualized approach based on principles with underpinnings of all of the different dietary spheres because I went through and did all of them and had the trials and tribulations that I'm sure you've also experienced as well. Yeah.

And what do you think is the general conclusion you've made about the different paradigms? I would say the overarching conclusion is in each paradigm, there is an ounce of truth. There's a portion of truth.

However, there's also a lot of ideology that comes with every paradigm. And then now the dietary spheres have become fractured to the point that you have like a lot of tribalistic systems in place or communities in place. And I think there's a loss of focus on objectively what's going on and trying to narrow, like narrow down or smooth out paradoxes between the spheres instead of saying, Hey, this is why this happens. And like, this is how all of these things coexist in the same world. So I think,

In each sphere, you could pull out truths. Bioenergetic, keto, paleo, carnivore, vegan, all of them. But it's about sifting through the cold to actually find the diamonds. And then once you extrapolate those diamonds, creating a system out of those diamonds, those diamonds being the principles. So that would be one of the biggest things that I had taken away. And that for me...

In order to actually get better, because again, I landed in bioenergetic and I was like, man, this is going to be it. Did the milk and orange juice thing is like, nope, it's not. So then I had to figure out what I was going to do next to actually get my health under control. And that involved pulling those principles together and formulating systems.

That was what was most helpful. And then iterating it based on my own experiences. So applying the perceived think act model, not just to like carrot salad and progesterone and vitamin D, but like at large in general, sifting through my experiences in my life and the data I had at hand and then seeing what is the next step that I need to take. And then, uh,

setting up a way that I can determine the effectiveness of that step and then moving to the next one from there. So it's like a true hypothesis testing, perceiving act type of mentality. And that was one of the huge benefits for me from the bioenergetic sphere as an example of a principle. What do you think is the biggest part of your arsenal of information that you're most unsatisfied with? Like the one that you're like, I got a nice

system here but the one i'm a little bit iffy about what's your what's your iffy spot or your achilles heel that are potential that could be the thing that you need to tighten up more and the package of health i think um there's something that i've been seeing going on more recently because you have people with like really weird symptom profiles after a variety of different insults on their body um

Drugs. What's an insult to your body? You're talking about the government. That's definitely what I'm not going to. I don't know if I'm going to go there just to keep myself, keep myself safe. But essentially, there's a variety of things that I think people are being exposed to now, whether there's different drugs that they're being exposed to, different therapies are being exposed to different chemicals and the food supply. And you're seeing really young people like 20 something year olds, teenagers, teenagers

18-year-olds, 19-year-olds, I don't really work with anyone less than 18 typically. I usually work with only adults. This is my area, my scope, my area of expertise. And essentially, they have symptoms and problems and obscure disease processes that

that just like they don't respond to a variety of different therapies. And so it's like I'll have an 80 year old who's had a heart attack, who's had a stroke respond better to therapies than some of the 20 year olds that I have with like very obscure processes. So it's trying to figure out

What exactly is going wrong with these younger people? For myself, I'm included in that group. I had a variety of really weird symptoms, a variety of different health problems that were pretty ambiguous and didn't respond to typical symptoms.

to typical interventions or strategies that I had to really spend a lot of time and energy to figure out. And I'm seeing quite a few people like this now that it's like each person is their own, their own conundrum. So it's like their own puzzle. And it's, you don't, you can't just be like, oh yeah, just, you know, have more carbs, just go keto, go carnivore. You start looking through the labs and

and you start seeing, okay, so we have weird hormonal shifts, right? Like why does a 20-year-old have like a really terrible DHEA as to cortisol ratio? Why are their mitochondrial markers super off on their NutraVal? Why are you seeing things where micronutrient status is all over the map despite them taking supplementation? So there's these, and then there's symptom profiles. They're having paradoxical reactions

to a variety of different supplements and compounds that should be helping to resolve their symptoms and help them actually move the needle and they're not responding to the same. So there's a lot of this coming out and each person that I have like that, it's like,

You can't standardize what the treatment track is for them. So you have to kind of go in and see the details. And so for me, what I'm spending a lot of time now doing is getting better and better at diagnostics, better and better at like getting into the weeds and the details of an individual circumstance and then building out a treatment strategy from there using the tools that I have at my disposal.

Yeah. So do you do you subscribe to the idea that a lot of people say, which is there's multiple different diets? Some people are fat burners. Some people are carb burners. Don't try to put people on a universal protocol that it's sugar or whatever.

I think so. I wouldn't. I think how you delineate and characterize each group as like a sugar burner versus a fat burner or something like this. I think it's not necessarily as cut and dry as that. And I think that you need to be careful with how you're defining and setting up those categories.

I do think diet is highly individualized, but I don't think you could individualize it in the sense and say, well, you have sugar burners and you have fat burners and some people just do well with this with fat burning. Some people just do well with carb burning and like it just is what it is. I think when you look at some of the principles, you start to see some of the benefits of

specifically of carb burning over fat burning. For example, with changes in mitochondrial dynamics, CO2 production, changes on the hormonal profile. But that doesn't necessarily mean then that that person should just rail sucrose or table sugar or like plow orange juice all day long. It also depends on their context, right? So if you have somebody

who is, you know, having trouble oxidizing glucose effectively, then how you go about getting them back to oxidizing glucose effectively is not the same as a diet for somebody who's already oxidizing glucose effectively. These are things that I think you have to, uh, um, work with the individual and like get granular with it. But I don't think it's just car burning versus fat burning. So you believe like Ray P that we were primarily designed to use glucose for fuel, but, uh,

Is that right? You don't think that's something that is genetically related at all? I think that we use both fuel sources. And I think that the – so whether you have carbs on board or not, you're still oxidizing both fuel sources simultaneously, just not in the same cell, just across the body you're using fat and carbohydrate. But I think the ideal state, the ideal setup –

incorporates carbohydrate in the diet. And again, you'll get arguments. It's not essential that you have carbohydrates. And it's like, sure, it's not necessarily essential that you take an exogenous carbohydrate. But I think in order to thrive to some extent, which the question is not like, can I just get by? The question is, how do I actually function optimally? I think having carbohydrate for the vast majority of people would actually be a benefit and would actually be ideal.

could you get by without it? Yes. So that's a clear delineation because those are arguments between low-carb, keto, bioenergetic all the time is this perspective like, well, carbs aren't essential. It's like that's not even the question. What do you think of the approach of the so-called animal-based approach where you have these lots of organ meats and meats, but you have honey and fruit and some dairy?

Again, I think that... Do you eat spleen? I do. I do eat liver. I went through the whole organ phase. Yeah, spleen is not a regular item on my menu. But I have got... It tastes like the inside of an unclean pet shop, you know?

Yeah, definitely. I'm definitely not doing too many exotic organs at this point. I'm doing mostly, I do use liver. I do use it in, I'd say, smaller amounts than you typically see in other dietary spheres. But I think that the animal-based approach, this idea that there's just an animal-based diet, I think is...

again, like I'm not really for like do keto, do carnivore, Mediterranean bioenergetic. It's more about the principles. I think animal based is, it's kind of a weird outcropping cause it's, it's like a mix of carnivore and bioenergetic to some extent. Um,

And I don't really see it that separate or that far off from a bio energetic approach. I feel like it's just kind of maybe a potentially a rebranding to some extent of some of the principles from bio energetic. That's more how I see it. But I don't think it's a bad diet per se, but I'm not about choosing like, oh, you need to just go do this diet. It's like, let's look at what you're doing. Let's look at your labs. Let's look at your context and your symptoms. And then let's adjust, see how you respond and adjust and adjust and adjust until we get it right for your context. Yeah.

So you're talking about principles. What's the first principle people need to have in mind that you go to? So let's just even talk about the –

Like in general, when you're looking at somebody's health, what are the tools that you typically have to get somebody's health back under control? You know, besides surgery and drugs, which for me is outside of my scope of practice, you have supplements, you have diet, you have movement, you have light exposure. And then you have, I guess you could put hormones, herbs and stuff like this in there. And then stress management, some of these components. So I think...

The first thing is like figuring out, OK, I have this this like swath of tools that I have to work with. And it's like, how do I take these tools and adjust them so that I can actually reach and achieve my particular outcome? You have only so many modalities that you can actually work with in a natural health setting outside of at least right now, outside of supplement and drugs. And so it's like, how do you actually work?

How do you actually manipulate those variables to achieve the particular outcome and reach a particular goal? So that's the primary foundational setup is that. And then we can get into the specifics of what you do into each one. Like, for example, what are the principles that I'm looking at from a dietary perspective? And it seems like a lot of people who go from the low-carb and keto and carnivore world end up falling into the conclusion that they must have some type of...

endotoxin or gut issue that arises from the transition between those paradigms and a bioenergetic paradigm. Now, I understand that describing low-carb, paleo, primal, carnivore, and keto are all wildly very different approaches. So we're painting with very big, broad brushes right now. But generally speaking, do you see that pattern as something that recurs

is a gut issue for folks who do any one of those number of paradigms and then go to Ray Pete's principles? I think that a large portion of people enter a low-carb paradigm probably through like either keto or paleo first because they either have digestive issues or they have weight to lose or they have blood glucose dysregulation.

And I think when they initially and typically it's from maybe standard American diet or plant based or something like this, like that's like I think the beginning of the funnel of diets. You start counting, you know, calorie counting, weight watchers. Then you get into plant based Mediterranean diet and then you start like getting, you know, paleo keto. And then it gets all the way down into carnivore. You kind of like go in the funnel in that direction. Obviously, people like start at different spots, but there's a typical flow.

And I think typically when people jump into those low carb diets, they tend to feel a lot better immediately. Like for me, I felt instantly better going from more of a plant based diet, which made me exceptionally sick and led to a surgery that was arguably unnecessary. And then going to paleo keto intermittent fasting was like massive game changer. And I think part of that is for me, I had gut issues since I was young.

So I was bloated. I had gas. And the diets that I was eating, the plant based stuff that was supposed to be super healthy for me was making me feel horrific. So, you know, I was doing greens, lentils, avocado. I would have some chicken and some eggs, olive oil and then lots of vegetables and juicing kale and spinach and this type of stuff.

And it made me sick, made me quite sick, made me at that time, probably hypothyroid based on some of the symptoms I was getting, pulse in the 40s, low body temps, things like this.

And then essentially when I cut all that out, I was like, wow, I feel way better. And so I initially thought, hey, this is carbohydrates. Carbohydrates were the problem. And then I started to avoid them. And obviously you keep – if carbohydrates are the problem, it's like if less is good, then even less is better, which pushes you to keto and then down to the carnivore and stuff like this.

And so I think a lot of people jump in initially with a gut problem, not everyone. It solves those gut problems. They also potentially get some weight loss with those diets. We can talk about why.

And then but then they start getting stress symptoms and other symptoms long term from those diets. And then they want to then they want to start adding the carbohydrate back in. And then when they do, depending on which carb source you use, you can start to get gut issues again, because, again, some of those diets are potentially minimizing gut issues like carnivore by cutting out everything. So you won't have symptoms except for the meat, which doesn't create a lot of bloating for a lot of people.

Or in paleo and keto, they're also quite restrictive on the things that would give you gut problems. And then if you add carbs back in when you start to reintroduce them, you have a circumstance where you didn't necessarily solve the initial problem and now you're getting the symptom again. Yeah, I mean, and I was saying gut issues for people who go from keto to carnivore to Ray Pete's type of recommendation.

Oh, you're asking if they develop it during those times. Yeah, or notice it or something, you know, that that's when there's a problem because it seems like, you know, it seems like there's a crossover issue there, which you've been keen to talk about a lot on your work. But I had a similar approach, you know, it's like trying to lose weight and then you do the typical, just like, you know, standard things in the 2000s and none of it's any good, right? And then so you find this secret formula

kind of, it's like fight club back then. It's like fight club, you know, the fight club for diets. It's like low carb where you're like, Oh wow. You can eat like bacon and cheese and butter. And you're like, what is this? This is, this is cool. Especially if you're like a guy, you know, you're like, wow, this is so you can like eat that yummy stuff and you lose weight. You just got to say bye-bye to the sissy foods like carbs. Right. And you're like, that's literally the package that a lot of men do. Right. And they're like, okay, let's do it. So you do it.

And you, you do have a lot of, you know, significant results, you know, and, um, uh, you feel a lot better. Um, but, uh, then you always, you know, you're, then you try, you know, you get low carb, uh, in the two thousands was, uh, a lot more antisocial to do, you know, in diet in terms of, uh, gatherings and restaurant options, uh,

It was a radical kind of thing. And so then you always end up making exceptions and getting off the diet. And then you notice a pattern that whenever you just try to just, OK, well, I've done enough dieting now. Let's just kind of reintroduce carbohydrates. You just seem to gain a lot of weight. Now, the pro carb people always say, oh, that's just water weight. You're like, well, yeah, 50 pounds later, that ain't water. I don't know. What is this? Water balloon?

And I know there's a lot of complex chemistry going on here, but, you know, at some point, you know, you have to just make conclusions. Now, much of the world, you have to make conclusions in a heuristic sense and say, I'm going to go back to the thing that makes the number go down. It makes me feel better, makes skin problems go away. Everything's just doing generally well.

Um, it's just a hard thing to kind of stay on long-term and see, you know, and so the, the mindset that I had that made me try to start introducing Ray Pete's principles is like this feeling that why do you have to stay in this perpetual, you know, cause I had gotten to the carnivore part of it, you know? And, uh, you say, you know, why do you have to be stuck eating such a minimal diet for the rest of your life? You know, here I am a young person. This feels like a prison, you know?

And so Ray P is kind of like the, you know, he offers this vision besides his underlying philosophy and everything. But it's like it's like Lion King, Hakuna Matata, you know, this like the Timon and Puma, you know, you're down on you're in the desert of doing this meat eating diet like Simba and all these guys come along. They're like, hey, look, just no worries.

enjoy the grubs, enjoy the fruits, the platters, you know, lounge around by the waterfall. Everything's going to be okay now, you know, and you're like, okay, this is great. And then you end up looking like a Pumbaa if he ate a lot of hormones or whatever. And so you're like, okay, this was a trap, you know? So you start to think, you know, something, some kind of not intentional, but like an ideological trap, you know, because a lot of the people who were getting into Ray Pete stuff,

A lot of them are like 20 rolls, so they can adapt. You know, you can adapt a lot. And it's great to do, right? You know, you haven't done as much damage yet to yourself when you're 20. So if you've got a few quirky issues going on or maybe painful issues, but you can adjust to things like that and all of a sudden you can get results. But after you've been doing

standard American diet and or low-carb alternatives as this kind of dialectic for years, going to rate peak can be very problematic to figure out how to, you know, do something that's sustainable for average-day people. And what I've tried to do is first, you know, go on my own journey, but also, number two, try to figure out a path that the average person can adapt to.

Because if the, here's my, here's my kind of nuts and bolts, and then we'll go back into the science with you about it. Right. But my, my basic practical point is if, if it's not simple to do, like keep it simple, stupid kiss, it's not simple to do. You cannot recommend this type of diet for all practical purposes to the, to the masses. Right.

at a certain age point that they're in. So if you get people when they're young, they naturally want to eat kind of in a bioenergetic way, fruits and everything like that. But by the time they've gotten to a certain age threshold, if you are going to make it extremely difficult, well, oh, just do bioenergetics, but it's this massive undertaking. It will never be adapted to the masses, which means it's a non-starter.

And so my question, my quest has always been because Ray Pete believed that diet was the key to the revolution, the awakening of the people. That's what he used it. That's why he spent his life on nutrition. And I kind of have a political agenda, too, like he does, trying to wake up the people by clearing out their their afflictions. Right. And giving them a vibrant thyroid and healthy energy.

That's how you get people to think creatively. That's how you get a million Nikola Teslas instead of waiting around for somebody to figure out his secrets from 100 years ago. What about a learned helplessness is that right? That's a bunch of learned helplessness, right? Waiting to find the secrets of Nikola Tesla from 100 years ago because God forbid we couldn't do it today. Oh, that's all got to go, right? So it starts with our mindset, which is downstream from our biological metabolic processes, right? So how can we get this solved?

Let's make it as practical as possible. You said no milk and orange juice didn't do well for you. Do you think those two are particularly pernicious for making people gain weight when they're trying to go from a low-carb type diet to the repeat way? Okay, so there's a couple things in there.

And I want to I want to kind of set the stage here for your your your question there. The one thing to keep in mind is where is the person coming from? Because if if you have somebody who has dysfunction, right, they already have significant dysfunction.

They're going to require a different strategy than somebody who doesn't. So the context of that individual is important. And the more dysfunction and things you have going on, a little bit more complicated it gets because when the system is working well, when everything is flowing appropriately, it's fine.

But when you start when things start to break down and you start to have backup pathways come in and different things start to become degraded, then you have to go in and directly repair those things. And that's for me, like we're more of a clinical sense of this comes from is like if I have somebody in this circumstance and I need to do X, Y and Z to get them to this circumstance and when they're in this other context, they're not going to be able to do it.

then the strategy changes. So you're changing the strategy based on the game that you get put in front of you. So that's, I think, something that's very important to think about with people. Now, in general, with the dietary stuff, in terms of setting this up, it doesn't, I guess there's one, a big thing to keep in mind is the general diet

strategies that are already embedded in the culture around diet are hugely problematic. So we all are, we all grow up in a dietary culture, right? So we, we inherit and we adopt strategies and principles from the culture, whether we want to or not, because we're not really conscious when we do them. So part of the components that make some of this seem complicated is because you don't, you're not starting at a blank slate, right?

You're starting at I have this software already present and I need to actually shift out the software sometimes. And so those things I think are important when you're talking about like the population at large. Because if you talk to somebody from from a keto sphere, yeah, like, you know, here's your carb intake and you tell them about carbs. But sometimes you talk to the average Joe and you say, hey, we're not going to do the bread. We're going to do, you know, some fruit, some whole fruit, stuff like this. Like, well, where am I going to get my carbs from?

And so it's like those types of things are important to the context of the person where they're coming from. Now, in terms of somebody like how does this set up at large for people or even people transitioning out of low carb keto carnivore stuff like this with the bioenergetics?

There's a ladder that I think about when I'm setting up the diet. And again, a lot of these people are coming from very specific contexts. But in general, the first thing you need to understand in the ladder is what is the energy requirement for that person, right? What is an estimated energy requirement for that person? And the best way we have right now to gauge that is going to be caloric intake to start to just get an idea. And I'll get it to how this gets simple in just a second. So you get the...

intake. Next, you need to ask yourself, how am I going to fill that caloric intake? And

And so we have three different components that we have to fill it to a large extent. You have carbs, you have protein, you have fat, and they all have different functions. So there's a little bit of a chess game because it's like carbs are going to be your your your rook, your fat's going to be the bishop, and then your protein is going to be your king. Right. Something along these lines. And so they have different functions. It's like how much of these individual things do I need for my specific context to reach my specific goal set? And so you set those up.

Then from there, the next thing you need to determine is what foods am I going to use to hit those particular targets? And it's going to be it's going to be person dependent. This is where the milk and orange juice question comes in. For me, dairy was a nonstarter.

I did the dairy stuff. It made me brain foggy. I was constipated. I was gaining weight. Did you do lactose free raw milk, regular milk, raw camel, goat, a one, a two kefir yogurt. Like I ran the gamut for about one to two year timeframe, just trying to get the dairy stuff to work for me.

I was doing, you know, at one point I was trying to do like probiotic kefir enemas type things to reshift my microbiome to tolerate dairy, just like, you know, antibiotics, all this stuff. And I just could not, I didn't respond well to it. And even now I don't respond well to it. The, the opiate effect from it is just so strong for my system. I respond to it so strongly that every single time, like it's, it's just not going to happen. What does that mean? Tell us what that means.

So you have in dairy and particularly the casein fraction. So I can actually tolerate whey. But in the casein fraction, you have a peptide called beta-casomorphin-7. So basically you have a chain of amino acids and when you cut them in certain places, you get peptides. Now, this peptide signals the opiate system in the body.

And so basically that's like your oxycodone, your fentanyl, your morphine, things like this. Not as strong, but similar signaling processes. And so it mirrors some of the effects you would see with opiate-based medications as an example. So constipation, brain fog,

it can also affect your hormonal profile because it will lower dopamine signaling and raise prolactin. And so these types of things aren't really great for androgens, testosterone, things like this, but it's going to be person specific as to whether that's a problem or not. However, I would say in my experience,

tolerance to dairy is is like really good tolerance to dairy like along the lines of the amount that people consume it on a typical bioenergetic diet is probably the exception more than the rule and again i i when i came into this like yeah dairy it's like we're raised talking about how the cows process the the leaves into this like super this superfood which is milk and

And then you turn it to cheese and whatever else. And it's like, this is great. Like, logically, it made sense. But after working with hundreds of people, you start to see like, well, they're not really some people really don't do well with this.

And for other people, it's like they're gaining weight, but they kind of tolerate it. And some people actually do really well. So it's going to be person specific. You kind of have to figure that out as then that's just one example of the food. Another one, what as the orange juices for me, I do better with pineapple juice, something about the orange juice. I don't know if it's the flavonoids in there interact with something.

with some of the enzymes, the CYP450 enzymes in my liver or whatnot, but it makes me sleepy and kind of knocked out, whereas I don't have that problem with pineapple juice, grape juice, pomegranate juice, et cetera. So this is where- Most people can't get grape juice and pineapple juice. Are you talking about canned for most people is okay in this context? Bottled. You can get decent quality bottled juices of these other sources, but

in most stores in the U S and in, in Europe. And also like the fancy, like glass bottle things or like the, even the plastic mass market, pineapple juice product. Well, it depends on your budget. I'm just saying, again, you got to make it work good and left in it, you know?

Well, it's still basically if you look at most of the research and when the researchers are studying juices, you have sugar added juice, you have sugar water. So basically sodas and then you have regular juice and the regular juice, even the mass marketed whatever still outperforms the other the other options. The one that's on the shelf without refrigeration?

- Even those, yeah. So when I was in the US, I was doing Knudsen, I was doing Lakewood, Uncle Matt's, things, companies like this. I'm not affiliated with them by any means, but those were the brands that I was using. And then I was also doing Trader Joe's juices. And again, some of them were just straight off the shelf vacuum sealed. Some of them were refrigerated section.

And then I was doing frozen fruits, whole fruits, things like this. And then I was choosing, again, for me, just to put this into perspective, as I said, I would put myself in that category of young people who had a variety of weird situations

symptoms from like quite a young age, not really knowing why I had them and what was going on. I mean, I did grow up in New Jersey, so that could talk about some of that, or that could explain some of that. But essentially, there's like a lot of weird symptoms and I had to be more restrictive

than I think a lot of other people to kind of figure out what I had going on. And I had weird responses and a variety of my clients don't have those same problems. And then a portion of them do. A portion of them are on the same wavelength with this type of stuff. So again, that's where that next phase is. Figure out which foods that work for you.

And then from there, then you got to figure out your micros, your vitamins, your mineral intake, stuff like this. Then you have meal timing, meal structure. So you have this ladder that you work through. Now, the upfront cost of learning that is semi-expensive of how do you not in terms of monetary sense per se, but in terms of time and energy to like get this stuff dialed in. Once you get it dialed in, it's autopilot.

So it's just setting up the system and then you run it on autopilot. And the way you're setting up the system is through iteration. So you're putting things in place and seeing your response. If your goal, as an example, is weight loss, then you need to see the weight coming down on the scale on a consistent basis. And you see that coming down, you hit that point, then you set up into a maintenance area and then you just run that into perpetuity. The problem is right now we had those systems set up in place for us.

by what we did with our parents, by what we did when we were younger, by what culture, our culture provided to us. And we're like, oh, it's so hard to change things. It's like you already are running a system. It's just not maybe not an effective system. So now you have a circumstance to say, I'm going to create an intelligent system that's based on my own context and move from there. Yeah, but it is like infinitely more complex. Like, for example, okay, first of all, context is,

Western men, this is a unique thing. You go to places all over the globe, and I know it's becoming more globalized, so everybody's imitating us, but a lot of cultures laugh at the thought of men concerning themselves with so many dietary questions, like what you and I have just talked about. This is a female thing to do. It doesn't mean that it's inferior. It's just, what are you doing? That's not what men fuss around about their health like this, fixate.

So we're already totally in this bizarre land of rat. Now, people can say it's because there's all these diseases that Western diets have produced and we're trying to figure it out. Sure, that's a great excuse. I think there's also an obsession with, you know, body image that men have inherited from female culture. Right. So men have become feminized in their obsession with their body image.

uh, as a, as a hallmark of their value. And that's a whole nother discussion, but I think that mediates a lot of this diet culture that men are in. So, I mean, that's a big issue there. And women too are in the same problem, but, uh, in a different, a different kind of context. But, you know, when I look at, you know, kind of these issues, you're still, what you just described is, I know it's not complex for people who are in the choir, right?

like of nutrition podcast world, but the rest of the world, yeah, America's what 70% obese, they say or something, you know, so, or metabolic dysfunction. So, um, you know, they're not even listening to this show. This is an influencer kind of a world that we're in here talking to. So there's a choir here that's interested pre-selected by the topic. Uh, I was bringing seed oil topics to the broadcast radio for years.

And that was a lonely space, you know, because in broadcast, you're catching people who are not in the choir. And those are the average normies that don't know anything about. And they're getting lost already. And I'm not saying you have to slow it down all the way. I'm just saying low carb. Once you've, I know it's complete. I know it's even that's confusing. I remember when I was in 2000, you know, they'd be what's a carb, you know? Yeah.

You'd explain it's grains, this, this fruit sugars, anything. And then they'd pull out a piece of steak. Is that a car? I mean, I just said, it's the grains. These are grains, you know, it'd just go through it over and over again, but that's how far the learning curve, you know, that's kind of, but, but, but when you, when you add in, now you got to measure your calories every day. You got to measure your ratio of, of, of, uh, carbs to fats to sugars.

You've lost the Walmart crowd. You've lost people who are desperately in pain. They're suffering. And they don't, you know, I just don't think because they're working to death. They're in debt. They're enslaved to these mortgages and everything else. And, you know, they've got toxins in all their food. There are most people in America living in food deserts relatively. You know, there's just garbage. There's no fret. You're not in Costa Rica where there's beautiful fresh fruit. That's a great place to be bioenergetic, I would imagine.

well we could talk about that around the rest about the rest of the world and some of the stuff because i've been just traveled i was in asia i was in europe and now i'm in latin america

And the food situation in the U.S. is probably hands down the best. Europe and the U.S. are hands down the best as far as access to stuff. As far as a food desert, when I was in Asia, it was horrific. We actually were paying U.S. prices for food there because we had to get imported food because the quality was so poor. And I think that in these other countries. What Asia were you in? We were in the Philippines. My wife and I were in the Philippines. Yeah.

So it was, and that's not a shot at the Philippines. It's just like my experience. Maybe it's where we were, stuff like this. So it's not to say anything specifically bad about the country, but we just could not, like we had to go to expensive places to get food.

imported foods because the food quality locally was just doesn't wasn't going to work. It was a nonstarter for us. I guess severe problems with it. And I think that you're going to start to see I'm actually slightly concerned about some of these other portions of the world because they're adopting. So like maybe right now they don't have those same problems.

that you do us how we don't worry about our diet, this and that. But I think you have portions of the world that don't have the same access to health care and the economies aren't developed the same. And they're introducing food products and copying procedures and practices from westernized societies that are strongly associated with their disease processes. And I think these countries are like the people are going to have a really bad time with disease.

because they don't have that medical support and they don't have access to good food. So in the past, it was like, yeah, if you're in a place where the diet is fish, rice, vegetables,

whatever fruit you grew on the property, whatever eggs you add on your property. And if you had any goats or something like this, like, yeah, you're gonna probably be all right. But then when you have a society now where you go and you move into like a city or it becomes industrialized and now your food is all canned fish, whatever fried in seed oils,

And and you have like no access to fruit. You don't have any any type of cooked veg or or high quality meat in your diet. It's like now you have a serious problem because you don't even have the systems in place to manage that like you do in Europe or the U.S.

So I think you're going to see these countries have problems. And then even in Costa Rica, while we can get decent access to certain fruits, there's other things here that you just like do not have access to in the U.S. Like it's actually been an uphill battle to get stuff. It's just more expensive to get some of the same products. And I think the people in these countries, as they start to industrialize, are going to you're starting to see it around the world. Mm hmm.

countries actually ramp up and have the same problems that the industrialized nations do diabetes heart disease cancer and even long-lived countries japan china and some of these other countries are starting to see massive changes in their health as well as they adopt these processes i think they're going to be asking the same questions now that we are currently asking so when you let's say donald trump said i'm going to appoint you to be a dictator of health

And you're going to make it, it's a huge problem. We have a lot of obese children, a lot of obese people. It's huge. And I want Mike, you know, Bobby's not cutting it. He's not doing it fast enough. I want you to solve obesity. Okay. And so you're going to design a dictatorial plan.

diet regime for millions of people to solve the obesity problem and get it done in four years. So what are you going to do? What are you going to start with? Are you going to do pineapple? Catch the most fish. Obviously, you're going to say a good health coach. It's always up to the individual. But we're here. Ray Peet, and he was an individual, but Ray Peet and big picture people, they want to solve things in the most

I'm not what I'm trying to get at is there's got to be a kind of a broadcast approach to this. So you want you want delineated solutions? Yeah. So what you you're the dictator of HHS and we're abandoning all principles of freedom and free markets. And now you're just going to you're going to prescribe the new Donald Trump huge not going to be obese anymore diet paradigm. What's it going to be for everybody?

Yeah. So the simplest way. Right. In America. Let's just start with America.

Okay. Yeah, that's perfect. I think the first things first is that you have to have people want to do stuff. So you need to have a system set up where people are wanting to make this change and engage in that process. And they understand what the value is for them in terms of their quality of life, longevity, et cetera. So the first step is like explaining the risk, long-term benefits, all those type of things. Because if you have somebody who doesn't want to do it, you're wasting your time. You

You could put out guidelines, whatever, they're just not going to follow it. So from that base, from that perspective, the next thing that I would say is the most important is, again, I would actually just instead of a diet pyramid, I would set up that ladder and say, like, when you're going to construct your diet,

First, you're going to look at this. You're going to look at what your energy intake is going to be based on your activity level. So are you sedentary? Are you lightly active? Are you active? And then what's your goal? Do you want to maintain your weight? Do you want to gain your weight? Do you want to lose your weight? Pyramid number or pillar number one, right? So that's the first pillar. The next thing is we want to set targets for protein, carb and fat for people. So for me, I typically shoot assuming you don't have special cases, right?

Kidney disease, liver disease, stuff like this will alter. You want to set a specific target for protein. For me, I typically shoot for around 0.82 grams per pound. If you have a body fat percentage for men, that's greater than 30 or 26. For women, that's greater than 39, usually one gram per pound of body weight per day.

So you set that up. So that's the next thing. Say those numbers again. You said a 0.2 pounds. 0.82 grams per pound of body weight. If your body fat percentages of men is less than 26 and women less than 39. If you're greater than those targets, one gram per pound of lean body mass per day. So basically you subtract your fat, that mass off your total weight and you get your lean mass. And then that's the protein intake.

From there, you have your carb and your fat intake. The typical way that I see this is I don't like to see fat less than 20% of calories. I think you get into problems with blood sugar, digestion, hormonal profile, satiety, et cetera. So you still need to have a bad diet. So if you eat too little fat, it can mess up your blood sugar, you're saying? Yeah, you're going to ride that roller coaster very uncomfortably. Most people will. Most people.

Most people. Some people seem to do okay with it, but in my experience... It's really popular right now to talk about the honey diet, anabolic. I've had him on my show. He's getting people to lose weight supposedly with this honey diet where you do fruit all the way and honey and sugar all the way until 4 o'clock, I think. Then you have a dinner. Then you have a dinner of lean meat or something like that. Kind of a keto type meal. It's basically just a calorically restricted diet, I would say.

But what's the point? Is there any medicinal value or metabolic value of just straight shotting sugar only until that such a time for me losing weight or whatever? I think you just said you just said if you keep your fat lower than 20 percent, well, you're keeping it at zero percent till four in that paradigm. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I think, and he's already talked about this on other podcasts that people do get blood glucose issues riding the roller coaster when they do those diets. Then he actually recommended coconut oil in those circumstances, if I remember correctly, which I don't think would be the correct solution there. I'd look for a longer chain fat, but that's a whole different story. So fat helps, helps.

the spikes not happen so violently, right? So what happens is fat triggers digestive hormones like cholecystokinin that basically delay gastric emptying. So your stomach drips food into the small intestine so that your small intestine can absorb it. And so the protein and fat together both actually help to delay gastric emptying and help to minimize blood glucose spikes. So you get a more even curve if your meal contains a carbohydrate,

a protein, a fat, and then also fiber can be helpful as well by triggering an ileal break, which basically slows the rate of absorption through the small intestine of the carbohydrate. So these are strategies you can employ if you're dealing with blood glucose dysregulation, that can be quite helpful overall. So again, I think the other thing with the honey diet set up, Ethan and I actually were considering talking about this,

But it's also based on like a singular mechanism. I think of what's like fibroblast growth factor 21 regulation of high sugar, low protein intake, having a sparing effect on muscle. I think sure, like you can like wax this this particular mechanism. But I think there's other concerns. I don't want to go into it now because there's like a bunch of things I would discuss about it. But in general, I would tend to recommend having adequate fat.

in the diet with adequate carb and adequate protein on a consistent basis organized in your meals across the day so that you have a stable blood glucose curve. And you're also providing the macronutrients again, like these are the nutrients that we require in some of the largest amount I think are exceptionally important for a variety of different functions. And you can look at like the question is not, oh, do I have fat or do I have carbs?

The question is how much carb or how much fat you need per day for your particular goals, outcome, function, et cetera. And within the total, total context of, of energy intake, because this is a big thing with the keto carnivore transition, just as a tangent really quick, a lot of people come off that they're still eating super high fat and then you just throw carbs on top. And it's like, Oh, I'm gaining weight.

It's like, what's high fat in your language? What's high fat? 50% of your calories coming from fat or what do you think? Cause you said 20. Yeah. I'd say the, the top end of the range that I'm typically seeing with that. I typically have people in on average. I'm usually most people about 30. Some people are at go up into the thirties up to 40, but I tend not to go higher than that. And then I, but I'm not. And that's for weight loss or for everybody you think should be around 20% fat every day.

No, I don't think people should be at 20% fat. I have a range. Oh, okay. So I think the lowest you should go would be 20. I got it. And then the top end I typically go to is 30. But if somebody does a little bit better, higher than that, then that's also okay. And then you basically fill in the rest of your intake with carbohydrate from there. The low end of carbohydrate that I typically...

recommend for guys is about 150. For women, depending on how much lean mass, body size, stuff like this, typically 130 or so, somewhere in there. And that's just based on extrapolations on how much carbohydrates required for brain function on a regular basis. You don't have to push gluconeogenesis for the production of glucose from the liver. Aren't you always producing gluconeogenesis?

The thing is, is you do have gluconeogenesis going on. But the question is, how much are you relying on gluconeogenesis? Right. Because it's not either or they're not dichotomies, they're spectrums.

So it's like how far is the slider on the scale? And if you don't eat enough carbohydrate, you automatically have to force gluconeogenesis. And until you push ketogenesis, but even if you push ketogenesis, you still have gluconeogenesis because the brain can't entirely run on ketones by itself, even though a portion of energy metabolism by the brain can be run on ketones. So the goal is to not push this process

where where you have to upregulate glucagon glucagon signaling production of glucose at the liver from amino acid and glycerol backbones because at least in my perspective there's there's long-term costs to that and from a metabolic perspective from the effects of glucagon by itself and from the catabolic effect of breaking down amino acids depending coming from the diet or from your tissues to actually create that glucose so these are things where it's like

Again, like does somebody need everybody need to be on 400 grams of carbs today? No. But what I'm talking about is you have your total caloric intake, you set your protein intake, and then you're trying to figure out what your carbon ratio, what your carbon take versus your fat intake is going to be within that caloric basket within that sphere of calories that you have.

instead of just like arbitrary macro targets like what's energy intake and then figure out carbs versus fats after protein's already stable because now you only have two variables you don't have to play with three so you so you're saying to do uh you know so what would why would someone do 150 carbs in your in your mind because you said that's the low end for you why would someone do that for a guy if i have somebody like i i have a lot of so just just to say here i

I have a lot of clients that would be considered like your normal American to some extent. And there are people who just saw me on a random podcast or something like this who are dealing with some of these issues. And some of them never even went low carb or did any of these diets. And on some of them, I have quite a few clients who are insulin dependent diabetics who are obese.

hypothyroid, all these types of situations. And they will still respond well to carbs. But if I have somebody, say, for example, I have somebody who needs to lose a significant amount of weight, right?

The only way to do it is with a deficit. It's not going to magically fall off in any other way. I know that's like kind of pushed in the bioenergetics here, but you need to set, you need to have a deficit set up in order to have a reasonable level of weight loss over a reasonable timeframe. So you have to set up the deficit. And then from there, I'm adjusting. If that guy is coming out of low carb,

And he's been running really low carbs and he has really high fat intake. I don't think it's a reasonable idea personally to just be like, yeah, 300 grams of carbs, man, drop your fat to 40. It's like, it's a bad time. He's got, you have to transition through that. So I'm going to start him lower. If he's at 50 grams of carbs,

and he's been in ketosis, all that type of stuff. We're going to go to 100 first, and then we're going to go to 150, and then I'm going to scale his fat compensatorily with that so the slides are moving up and back and forth with each other, and then I'm going to make sure if he has weight to lose, the weight's coming down on the scale. I'm going to make sure his blood glucose regulation is dialed in, and I'm going to trend some of his lab values, fasting insulin, fasting glucose, hemoglobin A1C, et cetera, to make sure things get under control because, again,

Something I want to point out is I know this frame was in your average American, but if you have somebody with dysfunction, it's not the same as like some guy who's like fine and just trying to figure out how to set up his diet. If I have somebody type two diabetic and a bunch of different components as a practitioner, it's my job to make sure that he gets outcomes, his values improve, and he hits those specific targets that he's shooting for. So I'm going to actually trend that. And that is going to be a bit more complex and entailing, but that's also what my job is to do. So to your point.

Do you think it's something that millions of people could scale to theoretically in like tens of millions? I think the fundamental goal is to just not even get there in the first place. So, cause the problem is, is, and this is the, this is actually a fundamental problem as a practitioner that, that like any practitioner that they're working with. And I think this is why part of the reason people are fed up with some of the medical system is that there's a threshold required to actually achieve an outcome.

So if you're in a, just as a random example, just kind of like a, uh, an analogy, if you are a race car driver and you want to win the race and you typically drive at 80 miles an hour, but 180 miles an hour is required to win the race. If you only go one 60, you still did better, but you're not going to win the race. So you actually have to hit this threshold. And part of the problem for a lot of people is, are they going to reach that threshold? Not from, um,

not from like a physical standpoint, but from a logistical standpoint. So it's how do you set things up logistically, which is this directly to your point, that allows people to hit these particular thresholds. And that's why I'm saying upfront, they need to have to some extent

they're handheld and the guidance there to set the system up and reframe and readjust these foundations so that they can achieve these particular goals and then run them long-term. Once they're set up, it goes long-term. You put them in maintenance and it runs. But the problem with like even the current medical system is that,

what doctors really have time for that? Like that's like a very specific niche that you're working with. And I think the fundamental problem is that the general structure from the jump led a lot of people to develop problems. And then there's not really systems set up in place to effectively manage them at scale.

And it's a lot of people that have some of these problems don't just need dietary adjustment. They need dietary adjustment plus other components dialed in to reverse that dysfunction or stave off the progression of that dysfunction beyond just take your statin and your blood pressure medication or whatever else. Like,

Those things are important, but there's multiple pieces that have to be dialed in. So we're in this circumstance now where you have a lot of people with a lot of problems who logistically may not be able to do what they need to do, or don't even know what's available to them to do what they need to do to reach this particular outcome.

And so that's what I think where your question is getting at. And I don't, the thing is, I think it's be, this context is quite a weird context because if we started with everybody being healthy and then we just had to figure out how to keep people healthy, that's very different than we have. Yeah. That's very easy. Yeah. But we've been poisoned and we've been mass poisoned intentionally or not. And people are walking around with the outcome. Right. And now we have to figure out, okay, how do we quickly,

you know, try to get this in the right direction. And not everybody's going to be able to get the personalized thing that what you're doing sounds extremely, you know, careful and precise. And so that's why I was trying to give you that analogy for a podcast context of if Trump gave you the

authoritarian prescription to write, what would it be? Would it be, okay, you said pineapple. Let's go through it because in communist... Well, that's what I was doing with the diet. Yeah, in communist China...

you know, or communist Russia, they had to have, you know, a certain kind of thing. They had soup or bread or potato, whatever. So what would be your classic look? It's not going to be dialed into your exact particular extreme thing, but this will be a general broad pathway to help heal the metabolic dysfunction causing overweight like we have in America. Because if you solve that, if you give people three square meals a day, so to speak, and enough sunlight,

And you can do that, man. I mean, you're going to be the one that changes the world, right? So what would it look like? Would it be two eggs and a cup of pineapple juice? What is it? A block of cheese? I would say. Salad. I mean, give me your communist regimen, you know what I mean, that you're going to.

Yeah. So once they have, once they figure out the amounts of things, as we were just talking about, then when they go to their food selection, it's probably going to be an animal based protein, right? Chicken, beef,

seafood, lean pork, if that's what your thing is. I'm not a huge fan of pork, but if that's your deal, if you tolerate dairy products, dairy products, if you don't tolerate it, then probably no dairy products. Eggs should be OK, again, depending on tolerance. And then from there, they're going to have a carb source. Right. That carb source is for me most times going to be either some fruit type product, whole fruit, frozen fruit, dried fruit,

100% fruit juice. And that's going to really depend on like how well they're managing or dealing with that carbohydrate. If you're sitting there with an A1C of 5.96%, whatever the deal is, or your fasting blood, well, depends if the fasting blood was a little bit different. And even A1C, if you're coming from low carb, those are very specific scenarios. But for your average person, if you're dealing with like a metabolic dysfunction, probably not going to lean on pineapple juice, probably going to lean towards whole fruit. So you're probably going to have

some berries, maybe a banana or some fruit like that with your two eggs for breakfast. And you do coffee with a little bit of collagen, something like this collagen, whey protein, things like this. So the meal is going to have your protein, your carb. Then you're going to have your fat source, the fat source. I'm going to lean towards either a saturated or monounsaturated fat source. So that's going to be olive oil, avocados, mac nuts, beef, dark chocolate, um,

Um, coconut oil, if you do okay with it, that's hit or miss dairy fats are hit or miss. Um, and then, uh, like fatty beef, things like this. So these are going to be adjusted based on what, what that person's dealing with. You're going to shift for with those fat source. I'm probably not going to incorporate much seed oil. I think everybody expects that from me at this point. Um,

From there, the next piece is going to be you're going to have fiber intake in the diet. I think it's actually important for satiety and for microbiome regulation and things like this. So I'm going to be doing like

cooked veg or raw veg depending on what you're doing carrot squash stuff like this zucchini cucumber um and then you're gonna have or you could have whole fruits or something like this so those are whole frozen dried fruits so that's typically what a meal is gonna look like so if i change the my food plate you're gonna see your protein you're gonna see the carb you want it like the

The other thing is a star. You're not changing the ratios of those three macros depending on the day. If it's breakfast, lunch, or dinner, you're kind of staying around the same ratio. Typically for the average, again, broad swath of people.

Yep. And I have people do three or four meals a day or three meals and a snack with no snacking in between. Typically, I set like three or four hours between. So just those those square meal times. And if you want to have coffee, tea, water, whatever between. Great. If you're having blood sugar problems and you like really need to have something, of course, you know, please, please have something. But for typically it's like have your square meals, eat at those square meal time. You're not a fan of the snacking concept. Some people like the snacking thing.

No, in my experience, the snacking doesn't typically work massively well for people's blood glucose regulation. And also if they have weight loss goals, it's typically not a great idea to just like plug away mainline or IV OJ milk all day long, things like this. Some people it works for, but that is the exception, at least in my personal experience. So do you like a lot of the repeat things like a carrot salad a day and oysters and well-cooked mushrooms and all these other things?

things that people talk about with repeat? I think that, um, I think oysters and liver can be quite helpful for micros. You could also do it from supplements as well. I'm not anti anti using supplements. I think they're quite helpful, especially when you have dysfunction. It's like you got to have tools in the toolkit. And then the next thing is as far as the carrot salad and the mushrooms, um,

Like, I don't think that they're magical per se. I know that in the Pete sphere, they have this, uh, this exalted status. I do think there's benefits to them, but I think that, uh, it's not like, you know, people like I did the carrot salad and my gut isn't a hundred percent better. And it's like, I don't think that it's like the primary strategy that's going to solve significant gut dysfunction by itself.

But I do think like using carrots, having a carrot salad, if you tolerate mushrooms, it doesn't even have to be just white button. If you want to do maitake, shiitake, enoki, et cetera, you can do these types of mushrooms as well. If you want to do any other cooked veg, squash, peppers, peas, things like this, potatoes. I also think those things are all fine. I think in general, having the cooked veg and then the fruit fibers with the polyphenols and components coming as well as the vitamins and minerals from those foods is

is generally beneficial across the board with individual responses to some of those components that you have to narrow down. Yeah. So you think that a lot of folks who are coming from a low-carb paradigm, they should ease into their carbs, in other words, and keep their fat kind of high because that's what they're used to until they lower it slowly as they up their carbs, right?

Yeah, and watch your response too, right? So if you're... And then keep your protein kind of high because you're eating a lot of protein if you're coming from a low-carb standpoint. I would titrate things. I mean, I've had quite a few clients come from keto and carnivore. And again, I titrate their protein intake and their carb and their fat intake so that they can get adjusted to the new diet. And we also see how they're responding as they go through. So because it's...

There's shifts that go on. Even when you go into keto, everybody knows that you're going to not feel good the first couple weeks. You know you're going to get the keto flu. You know you're going to get the stress response. And now you see, I see people in my comments section. It's like, adaption to keto takes three to six months. Like,

Just keep extending the time frames, this adaptation stuff. So I think for some of these things, like even coming out of it, you want to actually gradually adjust, watch how you're responding and go from there. So as an example, because when you're going to add carbs and you're going to gain water weight back, so you want to set a reasonable threshold and say, hey,

I'm a bigger guy. I'm over six foot, whatever the deal is. I'm probably going to get like five pounds, maybe up to 10 pounds max of water weight from refilling glycogen. After that point, I need to start asking myself, am I gaining body fat and do I need to adjust my diet? And then you, so like you have, you're setting metrics and expectations for yourself along the way. So you can see how I need to adjust what I'm doing. And so this is very important. This, this is not what happens when people transition. Yeah.

People come out of low carb and they're still plowing high fat meals. They don't know what they're doing because they didn't even look at it one time. And then they start adding juice,

and sugared milk and ice cream and whatever else into the diet. And then they start to gain weight because it's like, well, I feel better. Now I'm sleeping at night. Now I'm not as stressed out. I'm not as anxious. And it's like, yes, it is solving some things. You brought the carbs back on board, all this, you're eating more because the carbohydrate will trigger the appetite. A lot of people I think are losing in keto and carnivore just because you're not hungry. You have a steak and it's like, I'm good for hours, especially you have butter with that steak.

So I think you then also have the circumstance where satiety is altered because you have the carbs coming in, you're adjusting your protein intake maybe a bit. And now you're really overeating, you're in the surplus and people start to gain weight. So it has to be done appropriately, that transition, or you're asking for issues. And this is something I'm seeing happening.

many clients. Like this is one of the big things that I'm doing is like transitioning people appropriately out of these diets. Yeah. And again, I just, you know, and I think it's a good work you're doing because there's so much, you know, it's just a lot easier to do low carb. It's easier to transition from standard American diet to low carb than it is to go from

standard American diet or low carb to the bioenergetic pathway. It is, it is. Well, I agree with you a hundred percent. Yeah. It's not, you know, cause it's pretty simple. Once you master, uh,

What carbs are. Yeah, what carbs are. You just kind of keep a running total in your head if you're doing a little carb or if you're doing carnivore, it's even simpler in that way. And you just go. But with this, you got to keep, you know, it's an equation. And the average person can't even, you know. Well, what I would say is psychologically. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, people just don't even know like how many calories they're eating and they don't know, you know.

Well, psychologically, low carb and carnivore is easier. Practically higher carb is easier because you have way more variety. It's much easier socially, as we talked about. Although now it's like people are in their own little dietary camps and they only hang out with other people who eat the same as them and stuff like this. But there's...

From a practical standpoint, I think it's easier to actually run a higher carb diet once you figure those things out. But from a psychological standpoint, it's like even carnivores, like the pinnacle of this. Even Jordan Peterson was on a podcast talking about this. Oh, yeah, you just eat steak. You don't have to think about anything else. It's like, yeah, that is way easier from a psychological standpoint. It really narrows down the choices that you have to make. But fundamentally...

And again, like the thing is, is like even though it is psychologically easier that you could say that's a pro for the diet, there are still costs that come with running these diets from a metabolic standpoint and also from a hormonal standpoint and things like this. So I think in the context of this is why I typically I for me, I because keep in mind, I did keto. I did carnivore. I did intermittent fasting. Hardcore.

When it was, I was doing it in high school. I was doing it in like 2011, 2012, 2013. I was into all this stuff. And again, I felt better initially, but I ran into long-term problems with it. And I also did the, I'm going to come out of this, this,

this, uh, low carb diet. I found Danny Roddy stuff watching hair like a Fox. And then it's like, all of a sudden I'm plowing all this carbs. And then now I'm getting fat. Cause I did get fat when I came out, at least I typically lean, but I really ramped up my body fat when I first came. Cause I wasn't looking at my intake.

I was plowing granulated sugar. I was doing tons of dairy, ice cream, stuff like this. And I was not having a good time. And that's when it forced me to look at myself and be like, hey, man, you got to change what you're doing. You got to figure something else out. And that's where I started to get into more of the specifics and nitty gritty, trying to

understand what's going on the nuances stop seeing the black and white dichotomies as much and they start to say like hey what are the principles and then extrapolate them and go from there so like pete's work pushed me to that because the way pete thinks is very different than the rest of the dietary gurus and authorities you see pete has a relational perspective across multiple disciplines and when you look at most other dietary people it's it's like a very myopic you

uni-focused perspective. Yeah, that's for sure. Like an isolated specialist approach is not my sport. I'm more interested in polymath system thinkers. But I appreciate your time, Mike. It's been great having you on. People can go to your website, mikefave.com, right? And we'll put that in the description. Anything else you'd like to leave us with or last thoughts or anything else you want to mention?

Yeah, I appreciate you having me on the podcast. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about these things. And yeah, that's I would say if anybody is coming from one of these backgrounds, low carb, and they're looking, they're struggling certain symptoms and are looking to get into a bioenergetic approach.

To go about it, the first principle to adopt would be a perceived think-act fashion and to go about it in a relatively systematic way and go through it in a gradual process instead of opening up Pandora's box and just having at it and then having to pick up the pieces afterwards. Exactly. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, David. Thank you.

Bye.