Peter McCullough MD, Joel Salatin Challenge Bird Flu Narrative, Warn RFK Jr
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Well, I'm here with two friends of the show that I've gotten to know over the years. And, you know, I guess there's probably a lot of jokes. A doctor and a farmer and a podcaster walk into a bar. But today we're going to have a fascinating conversation by two folks who are not only experts in their fields, but also well known as defenders of liberty. And we're here to talk about public health.

And that's the avian flu. That's the new thing everybody's talking about. So joining me today is Dr. Peter McCullough, and he has been a frequent guest of our program. He is someone who has been a champion of science and rigor as it pertains to public health and how to deal with pandemics.

And we have Joel Saladin, who is known as the lunatic farmer on his website and is considered to be one of the world's most regarded regenerative farmers and advocates of food freedom. And so I'm delighted to have both of you. What a treat. Thank you. Well, we're delighted. I'm delighted to be here. That's for sure. Thank you. So let's start off right off from the beginning. First of all, you know, both of you guys were critics of the pandemic. And I thought, you know,

Here we are with this bird flu, and I've talked to, briefly, Dr. Mercola, you and I talked in the past about this, but here it becomes more and more of a narrative that is becoming bigger and bigger in the media. A lot of people are concerned about what's going to happen here on different levels, but they've culled a lot of birds,

That's something that would relate to what Joel deals with in his industry in the agricultural field. But Dr. McCullough, give us the big picture view. Where is this avian flu both in its reality and in the narrative of what the media seems to be pushing?

I always start out with a review from the UK published by Lysette and colleagues L-Y-C-E-T-T pointing out that bird flu in human observed history has been around easily over 100 years, seems to come in waves. It's a particular type of influenza that can affect birds.

And in legacy data from Southeast Asia, when we did have zoonotic transmission, that is from birds to humans, in those data sets, mortality was about 50%. But one of the things I've been critical of public health reporting on

is when they say it's a bird flu death or a seasonal influenza death or a COVID-19 death, we're not giving any details about, you know, it's a long way from catching bird flu and death. I mean, that's a long way. There's a lot of things that happen. I was on a show the other day and I said, listen, I'm a cardiologist and

When someone dies of a heart attack in a hospital, we have a complete review from the very beginning. How long did they wait to come in? What treatments were given? What went wrong? You know, our stance is that no one should die of a heart attack.

For sure, no one should die of bird flu. If we're told this, the cases should be examined carefully. The Southeast Asia cases I have reviewed carefully. There was a paper in New England Journal of Medicine in 2005. They look like very impoverished family farmers, undernourished, sleeping with chickens, presenting very late. It looks like to me they died of lobar bacterial pneumonia, not of bird flu.

So from the very beginning, I was questioning really is bird flu lethal to humans? And the first thing Anthony Fauci said and Rick Bright, former White House advisor, those at the World Economic Forum, Gates Foundation, they all said, well, bird flu is deadly in humans. And I was questioning this early on. Now, Joel, the reason why the first thing that comes to mind, not only

Have you been a critic of the pandemic? But you're also involved with

not only raising your own birds and chickens and so forth, but you also have helped folks all around this country start or revitalize or expand regenerative agricultural practices. And yet we are told that, you know, I guess the policy has been to cull lots and lots of birds as a means of dealing with this pandemic. Can you weigh in on a food producer perspective here?

Yes, I can, especially as an independent producer. So a couple of things people need to understand. One is in 24 months, they have exterminated, killed 166 million chickens. Actually, it's about 85% chickens, about 10% turkeys, and the rest of it is assorted ducks and other things. But it's primarily chickens and primarily laying chickens.

People need to realize that of those 166 million chickens that have been killed by the USDA to supposedly stamp out bird flu, probably no more than one or two million were actually sick or even showing symptoms. The policy is that if one chicken on your farm through a 45 cycle PCR test. So I'm giving these details so that people who are familiar, who question the PCR test, that's number one.

And then 45 cycles, Massachusetts Department of Agriculture is the first state ag agency to go on record publicly that anything over 30 cycles, which is like, and Dr. Peter, you can correct me here, but I'm a layman here. It's essentially like the magnification, a viral magnifier. And Massachusetts...

has come out and said anything over 30 cycles is absolutely fraudulent. I mean, if you go over 30 cycles, this stuff is, it's out in the air. I mean, you could find it on your dining room table. You can find it in your underwear, in your hair. Okay. And so, and so if they come on to your farm and use a PCR test at 45 cycles and find any trace of bird flu, all of your chickens are dead. Right.

And so the fact is that of these 166 million chickens that have been killed, probably 164 million have been perfectly healthy. And so far in the world, in the world, there has not been one single flock wiped out from bird flu. Even the very worst infestations have

has never gone below 10% survivors. Now, 90% losses, I agree, that's a pretty significant thing, but very few go to that much. Most of them are only 5% losses, 10% losses. And so the fact that most of these chickens that have been killed have been healthy and most of them would have been survivors...

is just, is almost unspeakably crazy. When you have a sickness, the one thing you don't want to kill is the survivors because the survivors are the ones that are adapting to the virus. So, so,

Dr. Zach Bush talks about this a lot. Every single living organism is adapting. It's trying to kill competitors and rise to the top. And so viruses are trying to adapt and become more virulent.

Well, chickens are adapting and becoming more immune. I mean, that's what we talked about, herd immunity, and that's the way things happen. And so for people to go around and say, well, these poor defenseless chickens, it's like there's only one player in this game. The viruses are playing and the chickens are just inert. No, they're not inert. They're adapting too, and we're seeing it in immunological fight back

with the survivors, the ones that are fine. And so to kill the survivors, not only does it not stop anything, but it actually stops the adaptable ability of the survivors to keep pace with whatever the virus is doing.

It's absolute insanity. So for me, as an independent chicken owner, chicken farmer, for me, the big issue right now is, let's say somebody came in and they found bird flu here. We desperately need freedom for the owner of the chickens to determine the remedy. This is basically informed consent.

And I'm right now, David, so you know, I'm calling bird flu COVID 2.0. I think that this is now the nexus, if you will, the OK Corral showdown between the pharmaceutical companies who own the mass media, they own the politician, and they own the USDA.

So the pharmaceutical companies own all that. And those of us who are daring to suggest that maybe we shouldn't kill all the survivors, we're over here in this other camp. And there's this massive war going on right now between whether the pharmaceutical companies will win. Remember, Joe Biden, two days before he left office, gave Moderna $500.

$500 million to develop a bird flu. $500 million is a lot of money, even if you're a big company. And so the economic incentives for these pharmaceutical companies to create something that the USDA can mandate as a solution

The amount of economic incentive is obscene for this. And so what I'm trying to get through to powers that be is I want flock immunity. And so if we had some birds with bird flu, I would want to be able to give informed consent and say, you know what? I've looked at the situation. I'm informed. And what I want to do is choose a different remedy.

I could choose to not do anything and see how far it goes. And thank you very much. I'll accept the losses. You don't have to pay me anything, taxpayers. I'll accept the losses. Or maybe I could try multiple remedies that are now showing great promise. CDS, hypochlorous, this quinlan thing, homeopathic remedies. There are all sorts of remedies that are coming to the fore and the USDA refuses to even test them.

but dr mccullough do you want to weigh in here i mean uh there's a different perspective here but you're someone who's also dealt with herd immunity and humans so right so i'm so glad to you know hear some from someone in the agricultural community where so many have been silent um you know finally we're starting to hear some voices nick hulcher from the color foundation just interviewed two ostrich farmers up in canada you probably saw it out there in focal points

And, you know, they've got this very valuable flock of ostriches and they've had to had bird flu and they die and the rest are fine. And they've been ordered by the authorities to kill their entire valuable flock. And this is a research flock. And so they've taken the time to get blood samples and actually demonstrate that they have serologic immunity.

And the Canadian authorities won't accept it. So, you know, we're getting to a showdown in Canada here. Most of the big farmers, the big companies, I think, have been quiet because of government subsidies. So they come in.

The Fisher VetMax test is a high cycle PCR, so it's generating tons of false positives. And when they do sampling, my understanding is at these big companies, they sample like a dozen chickens, but they put all the swabs in the same test tube. They do it twice. They throw the chickens back in the bin. So if they get a positive out of that single test tube, they don't know which chicken is the one that's positive anyway.

So that's the problem. So I attended the University of Arkansas Bird Flu Summit and I was able to ask some questions. This is October of 2024. And I asked them, how many cases of bird flu are there in the United States and animals? How many legitimate cases? The estimate they had was about 10,000 back then and clearly nothing adjudicated. So what Dr. Salatin said, estimated a million cases.

That could be a very generous estimation. We're approaching 200 million people

uh the birds unnecessarily killed record high egg prices so when these big companies like cal main take their product to market at high egg prices they actually make a higher profit margin because they you know they have a big market share so this perverse incentives goes on david we're at 1.5 billion taxpayer dollars have gone for this failed biosecurity strategy now uh

Dr. Mercola, is there any evidence that you've seen that there's gain-of-function type experiments doing with avian flu just like we had with coronavirus that eventually ended up coming into the human population? Are they using that same thing? And is there any indication of labs perhaps in America or some of the other hot spots for this type of research like Wuhan or Ukraine?

The McCullough Foundation has had our eye on three labs. One is Dr. Kara Kawa at University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, Dr. Ron Fouché at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, and then our own USDA Southeast Poultry Research Center in Athens, Georgia. We've published a paper. Nick Kohlscher is the first author in wildlife sciences, fishery, and poultry.

a peer-reviewed journal following the ecological spread of clade 23446 and our conclusion is that it's likely the current clade which spawned the first genotype which is b 3.13 and now the d 1.1 but the clay the original source

That may have been a product of gain-of-function research, serial passage research, where they're trying to get the virus to spread from mallard duck to mallard duck. The mallard ducks have a gullet that's very amenable to viral replication. And in serial passage research, you take a whole bunch of different strains and see which one can actually pass. And that was clade 2344-1.

And so, you know, we published this. We went through the peer review process. We published this. We haven't seen any government official come out and say, you know, that we're wrong. And there's been a few pundits on Twitter saying, oh, this fact check, this is false. And what we're saying is, listen, propose a different explanation here.

of how this thing started spreading around the world like this. Initially, when there were reports of a farm in Michigan, a farm in Colorado, a farm in Washington State, there was no explanation of how is it spreading from farm to farm at great distances. Our public health officials were behind the eight ball. And then now finally, Brooke Rawlins, our USDA secretary and all kinds of experts that come out and said, yes, it's spreading by migratory waterfall.

So this whole idea of eradicate in a flock, shut down a facility for about three months. The average is 111 days when they shut down a facility and go through sterilization, repopulate and then get recontaminated again by a migratory waterfowl. And, you know, it may be direct contact. It may be at a feeding bin. It may be through a human.

I mean, there's even been veterinarians that have carried it and that's been public. The bottom line is the same people, the same entities keep getting these government subsidies for having bird flu flocks be PCR test positive. I agree with Dr. Southen, it's complete madness.

My understanding is about 1% of birds don't make it because of some illness. Culling, the proper use of the term culling is to get rid of the few sick and keep the hardy survivors. That's the proper use of the word. Clayton Baker, an internist in Rochester, New York on Brownstone was sending me and Nick an email today saying, he said, stop using culling for mass destruction of the healthy birds. Use a different term. The proper culling is to cull out the sick ones. Maybe Dr. Salatin can weigh in on that.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. The other word they've used is euthanasia. They're always talking about euthanized. We've euthanized all these chickens. So culling and euthanized, both of those indicate a struggling animal, you know, one that can't, this animal's beyond hope and we have to just put it out of its misery. So the word that I'm using is extermination. It's actually, they're actually exterminating birds. It's a much more powerful word. It has no, it has no health,

you know, health insinuations, you know, and so, yeah, in both cases, the narrative, the official narrative is completely bogus to call this culling or euthanasia, which makes everybody think, oh, all these sick birds are staggering around. Oh, well, I'm glad they're putting them out of their misery. You know, that's the psychology of the narrative.

Do you know what percentage of the chicken supply or egg production supply has been exterminated, Joel? Do you know what in America? I don't I don't know what that is. I mean, I'm sure it's I mean, it's got to be, I don't know, five or 10 percent now. I mean, I I don't know.

and is this it has to be sizable david because it's moved the market dynamics now another issue to this extermination procedures it came out in a new england journal medicine paper published january 25th of this year first author is garg and it reports on the human cases of bird flu and up until a few weeks ago they were all characteristically mild and they they basically the poultry to human transmission it resulted in pink eye or conjunctivitis

and in a little bit of systemic symptoms. But the point is that I think it was 100% of the bird to human cases

occurred during the extermination procedure. Yes, that's correct. Okay, so do you see what I mean? So the idea is this, you don't want to be the poor guy at Cal Maine who gets the order and get rid of that whole flock out there. And whether they do foaming or other things to kill the chickens.

So it's counterproductive. It's not working. And in fact, it poses a risk to the workers, even if they wear personal protective equipment. Yeah, that's correct.

Joe, have you gotten pink eye hanging out with your chickens? No, I haven't had any problems. We haven't had, you know, we've been in this long enough over the decades that we've seen these, you know, bird flu. I mean, again, they might not be the exact strain today, but as Dr. Peter said, this bird flu is, it's not new. It's been here a long, long time and we've watched it cycle through. I mean, uh, back in about 2010, they, they exterminated, um,

I'm trying to remember like 150 tractor trailer loads of chickens and turkeys right here in our immediate area. And at that time, they sent about 30 federal veterinarians here to oversee the whole procedure. And two of them came to see us.

On their spare time, they were from around the country. They'd heard about us. Hey, you know, we're here. We'll go see this farm we've heard about. And they were not here to check on anything. They were just here as a friendly visit to see this lunatic farm. And both of them, they came different days independently. Both of them sat right here behind me in our front foyer. Both of them said independently without me probing anything.

Every one of us, of us vets knows that this is caused because we have too many chickens in too tight a confinement in too many buildings in too much geographical proximity. It's just complete host overload in the area. And then they both smiled happily.

And they said, but if we breathe a word of that publicly, we would both be fought. We both they were here singly one at a time. If I breathe that publicly, I would be fired tomorrow. So they knew exactly what it was. They knew what the vector was.

But they could not say anything publicly because they said, we were sent here to kill chickens. And that's exactly what we're going to do. We're going to kill chickens. That was the mandate. So, Joe, are you saying if they just were allowed to space out and run around and not be so confined in many ways that this whole thing would take care of itself?

Yes, yes. When you start, look, when a sickness, let's take children in a school district. Let's say that there's flu or something, you know, something kind of, you know, highly communicative going through a school system. They don't take all the kids in.

and herd them into a gymnasium together, they say, let's close school for three days. Stay home, disperse, okay? And let's knock this thing in the head. And so what's happened is these factory farm chickens, where you have these, you know, thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of chickens in a very, very close, on one farm,

what you have is such a, is such a, what's the word? It's a, it's an, it's an invitational, it's an invitational host situation.

And of course, those chickens are breathing in fecal particulate all day, dusty fecal particulate. And that fecal particulate goes into their respiratory tracts and makes abrasions in their mucous membranes. So now you have like bleeding ulcers in the cilia and the respiratory tracts of the chickens that the manure, that the fecal particulate goes right in.

you couldn't, if you were trying to design a, a, a program for sickness, you couldn't design a better program for sickness. And that's the way these chickens are. And so now,

That said, there are certainly some backyard flocks. Not many, not many, but there are some backyard flocks that are showing this. But let me tell you, I've seen some very, very filthy chickens in backyard flocks. Dirt, dirt ground, muddy, unsanitary, unkempt, unclean. And this is what Dr. Peter was telling us about Southeast Asia back when it went through there. Those chickens were...

were on often they were on 12 inches of solid manure because they weren't giving them bedding. They weren't giving them carbon, you know, a carbon bedding. And and it was it was an extremely confined. I mean, I mean, you know, these some some of these are really in bad shape. So so there's nothing there's nothing inherently clean about a backyard or a small flock that

However, it is generally easier to keep a small flock, a backyard flock, healthier. Here's the other thing about backyard flocks. This is something I haven't heard anybody else say, but I'm good friends with many, many, you know, homesteaders and backyard flocksters. Here's the problem. Those chickens often become pets. They get named. You know, there's Gertrude and Matilda and, you know, and Grace.

And so what happens is a lot of these backyard flocks are geriatric flocks. And those geriatric flocks are way more susceptible to bird flu than a juvenile flock. And so I'm on a bit of a tear in the homestead community. Folks, when your chicken hits four years,

Put it in the stew pot. Let's keep these chickens young and vibrant and not let these birds come into geriatric weakness. Joel, let's say, you know, one of the big chicken farmers, you know, industrial factories. What's the average age of a chicken that's brought to slaughter? You mean meat? For meat. Or egg layers? Meat chickens. Oh, six to seven weeks.

Six to seven weeks. Okay. Yes. And, and may I quickly say that, that the bird flu, this whole, you know, situation, uh,

Very, very few meat birds. It's not really been a problem in the meat bird industry at all. These are very young birds. Where it's affecting is in the laying chickens that might be a year old, 18 months old. They're a lot older. So they've had a lot more time in their life to be...

abused to be abused. And so, you know, it finally catches up with them as opposed to the young bird that's so young, you know, they're, they're actually, they, they grow fast and they're slaughtered before their system begins to break down like this.

Dr. McCullough, I know that you have recommended vitamin D for folks who have dealt with the previous disease, coronavirus, and also as a preventative for future illnesses. And I would imagine, Joel, that your chickens out there and your pastures are getting a lot more vitamin D than the conventional ag guys that...

our factory producing chicken. So let's think a little bit about the health aspect of this. I mean, I see so many parallels there between

Things that are good for humans are also probably good for chickens when it comes to things like vitamin D and fresh air and getting good whole foods in you. These are things that you've talked about, both of you. Right, right. And frankly, and a little bit of salad, a little bit of green, some of that, some of that, that carotene. I mean, there's, there's, there's, there's a tremendous number of antibiotics, natural, natural antibiotics in fresh grass. As soon as it's cut, it's,

they they uh they volatilize they they're very unstable and they volatilize off of the blade of grass but if a chicken is actually grabbing a blade of grass off the ground itself there's a tremendous amount of medicinal qualities in the carotenes and the phytochemicals in that fresh blade of grass so

So yeah, there's a, there's a tremendous amount of that. We, we literally, I mean, as far as, as bird flu here on our farm, we have, I don't know what, you know, five to 7,000 chickens right now. We literally do not even think about it. What, what occupies our mind is not being concerned about bird flu. It's being concerned that some government agency is going to pay us a visit and

And and and with with a fraudulent over amplified test, find find some detritus in the air. And then the next thing you know, we're facing you know, we're facing a SWAT team trying to take our chickens. And and that's that's actually a much bigger concern for us than that. We would actually have a bird flu.

Dr. McCullough, is there talks of doing an avian flu shot? Is that going to be the next thing, mRNA or something? You know, the United States government licensed the CSL-Sequarius antigen-based vaccine in 2021. And I looked at the data carefully, and I was shocked to see normal human volunteers, you know, people,

died with this shot. In the studies, they were just antibody studies. I mean, we should never have a normal human volunteer ever die in a vaccine study. So, you know, that's been out there. That has not been rolled forward. And as Joel said, the U.S. government invested $590 million in Moderna to make a messenger RNA bird flu vaccine. Well, let me state, listen,

United States government should not be paying any pharmaceutical company to develop a product. The companies should pay their own product development costs. They should decide what products bring to market. We don't need governments propping up biotech companies that have been hauling in billions of dollars. We saw the EU commission actually buy the CSL/Sequarius vaccine and start, they finished and start vaccinating humans.

Gates Foundation and CEPI have a self-replicating bird flu vaccine. And now we understand the USDA is very close to approving, but probably not deploying a chicken vaccine. But I can just tell you as an epidemiologist, I've trained in this, it's a giant mistake to ever vaccinate into a widely prevalent disease of any type.

And boy, do we see that with COVID. The organisms will develop resistance. They'll develop resistance. And bird vaccination was tried in Southeast Asia decades ago. There's a paper in British Medical Journal by Lee and colleagues that points out it failed. It actually extends the spread of illness. It doesn't, none of these vaccines are sterilizing. They don't eradicate illness and disease.

I just can't imagine we're going to get to a point where, you know, our 150,000 dairy and cattle workers are going to be approached with a vaccine. Are you going to get that? Excuse me. Go ahead. Lining up for that vaccine for you and your chicken. No, definitely. I'm not lining up for it. But I think I think it's important to.

to appreciate that it's interesting for me watching the industry now fight internally over this vaccine idea because many countries will not allow vaccinated chicken meat. Right.

into their countries. They have an import ban on vaccinated meat. And so the poultry industry right now, right now the U.S. exports about $5 billion in meat chickens, about $5 billion a year. And those companies don't want to lose those export markets.

And so there's infighting. And trust me, as an outsider, I love to watch. I love to watch the industrial folks fight in among themselves because the egg layer folks, we don't really export any eggs, but we do export meat chickens. And so the egg layers are the folks, and they're the ones, of course, being hit hardest by bird flu. They're the ones agitating for the bird flu. And the meat chicken people are agitating

are trying to put on the brakes and say, no, no, no, no, let's not do this because they're afraid of losing our, our foreign marks. So, you know, who knows where this will go, but it's fun to watch the, it's fun to watch the big players duke it out under the basket.

Dr. McCullough, are you still seeing – I know you treat a lot of vaccine injured in your clinic. Are you seeing people with weird health effects who are still – who are unvaccinated, who are being shed upon, and that's still causing problems? Well, we got through a particularly severe human seasonal influenza year

season in all experts. What was that all about? I agree. Well, a couple observations. About half the country takes a human flu shot every year. And I can tell you the analysis will come out next year, but this flu shot this year must have been very close to being useless because it really didn't provide any meaningful

So anytime we have a bad flu season, think about a useless vaccine, number one. Number two, I do have a sense that both SARS-CoV-2 infection and COVID vaccination have weakened population immunity. The virus has some immunosuppressive effects that there's a variety of mechanisms to support that. People have been more sick.

Now, I haven't had any patients with bird flu. I certainly have farmers that see me from West Texas and they're concerned. And, you know, what we did, I'm the chief scientific officer of the wellness company. What we did is we just stepped in and we said, listen, farmers that are at, you know, Joe Salatin size, they can sign up and just get like a free kit, which if they, you know, had a worker get sick or get concerned, they would have the treatment available.

available, which is really simple, safe, generic things. I've been very impressed with the iodine, dilute iodine sprays, nasal sprays, throat sprays, gargles. You can even make a homemade eye spray. Iodine kills the influenza virus very effectively.

And so we've made this available with farmers and there's a limit on how big the flock size are, but it would cover a lot of the independent farmers to get wellness company kits for free. It would be nice to have them available.

available. In the GARG study, all of the humans who got bird flu, they actually did get the drugs on day one, even before the human PCR test came back. Now LabCorp has a human PCR test. It's not governed by the CDC. The veterinary tests, I think, are all governed by the USDA Animal Division.

But we've done that to make it available and we did so, David, because of this emergence of this D1.1 variant.

And there was a teenager in British Columbia. She got really sick, respiratory symptoms, had to go on life support with ECMO. It's pretty serious. She survives. There's a man in Louisiana who dies. We're not given much in the way of details, but he's over 65. He had birds in the backyard. Both of these had the D1.1. And now there's two people in Cambodia, a toddler and then a man in his 20s. So we think...

you know, one case, okay, we'll look at it. You start to get more than a few cases. Again, my perspective is, you know, there's going to be diseases. There always are diseases. It's always about early treatment and our response, not about vaccines. Very good. I do have two questions for you. One for both of you, and we'll land the plane here. First question I want to ask you is kind of a big picture for a moment.

And that is, you know, both of you are known for kind of challenging the consensus of your respective fields where needed. And both of you have, you know, received a lot of attention from the public for doing so. And, you know, been on Rogan's show. Both of you have had highly shared viral moments with programs like Joe Rogan. What does it take to stand against the, at sometimes the,

consensus, whether it's manufactured or mimetic in your field? And why do you think more people are not doing what you both do? For example, why aren't more big farmers speaking up like Joel Salatin about what's going on with the avian flu? And Dr. McCullough, why aren't more medical doctors after seeing all the disasters of these mRNA products and everything else, why aren't they speaking and joining you

and making this more of the consensus, the new consensus, after having all of this information, that the messages that you guys are saying are in the right direction as opposed to what the government and the television continue to say. I want to start with you, Dr. McCullough.

That is the question we always want to ask our colleagues. What's on your mind? I think there is a religion around vaccines among doctors, nurses, and healthcare professionals. They broadly embraced vaccines. They take vaccines. They believe vaccine hesitancy is bad.

Anybody who says something that could make someone hesitant, therefore you're on the wrong side of an argument. So I think it's really about vaccine religion. It's not really science, it's religion. We're asked to accept vaccines based on faith.

And what we're turning out to realize, David, is they're a house of cards. Things are collapsing right now on vaccines. People are losing their trust. They're walking away. Many are starting to think, wait a minute, we should have taken a natural approach to this from the get-go. Joel? Yeah, so I would simply say that the power...

position and prestige, power, position, and prestige of the conventional narrative, if Dr. McCullough and I are right, it completely inverts the power, position, and prestige of the entire conventional narrative. And that's a big ship to turn around. That's a big ship to turn around. The conventional narrative

you know, financial, emotional, spiritual. And I love that. I think you're exactly right, Dr. It is, it is a, a religion. Um, there's, there's so vested in it that, that they can't, they can't even conceive of, of something different. And so, so here we are. And, and frankly, I think most people, most people, you know, grew up,

You trust the guy with the alphabet suit behind his name. You trust the government agency. You know, that's just the way we, you know, you trust the teacher, right? I mean, that's how we grow up. And so there's a great reluctance

to, um, you know, to swim, swim against the current. And, uh, and that's just, that's just a fact of life. So my final question is, you know, I've got a lot of folks who are in my audience or not a lot, I would say, but I know that there are people who are in this incoming HHS administration who have been longtime listeners of this show and, uh, folks in the new administration who, uh,

are fans of both of you. I know probably Robert Kennedy Jr., Secretary of HHS, is very well aware of both of your work. What's your message to this new administration, to Secretary Kennedy Jr.?

to anybody else who is listening to you as a voice, Joel, with farming and agriculture and Dr. McCullough as a voice for health and public health and, like you mentioned, epidemiology? Well, my message is to let us make our own decisions so that we

We rise and fall based on the consequences of our decisions. One of the problems when the government makes the decisions for us, and I'm not suggesting it's nefarious. Let's not even get into that. But let's assume that it's well-intended. But when there's a one-size-fits-all recipe for whatever the malady is,

then suddenly not only am I absolved of decision consequences and responsibility, but society is now poorer for not receiving responsibility

innovative, you know, counter ideas. And, you know, let's just say a minority view, a minority view. I mean, that's the ultimate test. The ultimate test of a free society is what do you do with a minority view? Do you let the minority view speak or do you shut the minority view down? And so, so

What we need right now, I think, is for a lot of this interventionist, the interventionist recipe from on high to,

To either quit, mute, go away and and let us out here at the grassroots level, let us make our own decisions for our own things. And and and we'll probably start making much more responsible decisions when we have to actually suffer the consequences of our decisions.

Thank you. Dr. McCullough, do you have any message to Secretary Kennedy and all those people who are coming in trying to do reform and manage the HHS and all of its agencies? I think on the human side of this, and this is true in agriculture, people want to be left alone. You know, I can tell you, I want to be left alone in my health decisions. I never, ever want to feel any pressure or coercion or threat of reprisal on any level.

health decision that I make. Now, the government is in the business of supporting research to generate new knowledge. And, you know, that's wonderful. As a doctor who seeks grant funding, I think that's absolutely great. However, we can never suppress

one side in order to promote another view. And we saw that through the pandemic suppression of any information on treatment in order to promote mass vaccination. When vaccination rolls out, supporting any information on vaccine safety, again, to promote more vaccination. And that creates imbalance in the literature. And when we have imbalances,

the entire field can be misled for decades before we get back on track. We've seen imbalance actually now come into the medical literature, which should have as root a fair process. What I would say is that leave the public alone,

And we have to constantly seek fair balance. If someone gets out there and says, this is the greatest thing ever, we need to hear the other side. And what are the hazards in doing this? With this biosecurity issue that we've talked about of this kind of mass extermination of healthy birds. When I was at the University of Arkansas Bird Flu Summit, there were many people saying, well, this is strict biosecurity. No one was saying what the consequences were of this.

And it was the same thing. So whether it's a vaccine or another public policy, we have to see both sides of this continued reevaluation. Nothing should be taken off the table. We saw this in some of the Senate confirmation hearings where the senators come out making statements. Well, this is true. Therefore, we shouldn't investigate anymore. Wait a minute. I'm not going to take that from one of my employees who's a U.S. senator.

They don't make assertions of fact and then remove investigation. That's not in their purview. So, you know, we, you know, and our leaders who get in there, they all have to be intellectually much stronger, much stronger. I mean, I want to see strength.

And from the president on down, they work for us. This isn't a monarchy. They're not kings and queens. They work for us. And we ought to see behavior like that. If we had 100 more Thomas Massys, both of you guys wouldn't have to do what you're doing right now. Yeah, that's exactly right. Hey, where can people go to if you I want to give you guys just a few seconds to or let us know about any events or projects, books, websites, anything like that?

Well, so mine is all through Polyface Farms, P-O-L-Y-F-A-C-E, Polyface Farms. You know, I've written 16 books. Number 17 is coming out this year. You know, my speaking schedule, travel, the events and the informational events that we're doing here at the farm, all that's on there. And so you can follow me on polyfacefarms.com. Thank you.

Yeah, I would say follow me on McCullough Foundation, McCulloughFND.org. Of course, I'm out on social media, my whole suite of activities. Those interested in health alternatives, check out the wellness company, TWC.Health forward slash courage. My podcast, America Out Loud Talk Radio, McCullough Report, as well as Pulse on the America Out Loud platform.

And then my book, Courage to Face COVID-19. And we have a second one coming out with bestselling author, John Leake. I can't give all the details away just yet, but David and Joel, it's been great to join you. And like both of you,

You know, we play a role now in a time of a great controversy in giving people alternative views and giving people common sense. And I have a sense in all of this that people have become unmoored and that just good old practical things now are in a sense not...

they're not easily grasped by people. And so we need that return. I am getting a big dose of vitamin D from my window. Yeah, you look cool. It looks like you've ascended into a superhero form or something. Well, you know what? I'm going to go out and enjoy some of it. Thank you so much, you guys. Take care. Thank you. ♪♪♪

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