Ebon Moss-Bachrach Takes Us Inside 'The Bear' Kitchen
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and our guest today is Eben Moss-Backrack. He's won two consecutive Emmy Awards for playing the role of Richie in the FX series The Bear. The show, which has won 21 Emmys altogether, returns this week for its fourth season. Moss-Backrack spoke to Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado.

When we first meet the character Richie in The Bear, he's loud, abrasive, and ornery. We get the sense that he's like this all the time, but he's also dealing with the recent death of his best friend and business partner Michael and the return of Michael's younger brother Carmy.

Carmi left Chicago to work at the world's best restaurants, and now he wants to transform the neighborhood sandwich shop Richie used to run with Michael. Here's Eben Moss-Backrack as Richie, with Jeremy Allen White as Carmi, and Iowa Debris as Sydney from the first episode of the series.

Hold on. Listen, let's just have a conversation for a second. Whoa, what the f*** is this? This is Sydney. I'm staging today. You're what-ing today? That's Sydney. She's helping us out today. Cousin, you ordering different mayonnaise, bro? Do you have all these bananas? No, all you, chef. Yeah, all you, chef. This bib, he was using them to make a giant nut muffin. It was a play on a panettone. It would have been beautiful if you'd let me finish it, all right? Richie Jaromovich. Pleasure to meet you, sweetheart. Don't say sweetheart, you weirdo. Sorry, Carm, you're so woke. I made nothing by it. Sydney. Saying sweetheart's just part of our Italian heritage. That's beautiful. Thank you. Corner work.

Okay, listen, I'm trying to talk to you, okay? Don't be rude and start doing a million things like I'm smart. I don't have time for this right now. I got all kinds of receipts from my divorce lawyer backing up because all the time I'm spent trying to put your family back together because you're too much of a c*** to come home. The guys are texting me. You're telling them to do all sorts of weird c*** backwards. Don't do that, Carmen. Don't go messing with their heads and ordering different mayonnaise and hiring new bras without talking to me first.

This is your brother's house, okay? Yeah? Remember? I was running it fine without you. Why didn't he leave it to you then? As the show goes on, the viewers grow to love Richie, learning all the ways that he's hurting, which include the end of his marriage and his worry about losing a relationship with his young daughter.

Maz Bakrak has won two Emmy Awards for Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series for playing Richie. He played Desi on the TV series Girls and starred in shows including Andor and The Punisher. He's also appeared in many plays and films over the decades, and next month he co-stars in the next big Marvel film, The Fantastic Four, First Steps.

Eben Moss-Backrack, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks. Thank you.

I know that you're very protective of the characters that you play. So I want you to know, I mean this in the best possible way. I think that Richie is the character I've done the most dramatic 180 on, maybe ever. We just heard Richie from the beginning of the series. But as the show goes on, I know I'm not alone when I say that we're rooting for Richie. I feel that in many ways, he's the heart of the show, which is a testament to the writing and to your performance. What did

What did you know early on about the journey that Richie was going to take? I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore, who felt under threat, back against the wall, kind of, you know, trying to grab anything that could keep him afloat. And somebody in that position, I think that kind of a part can hold forever.

a lot of volatile, dangerous, spontaneous behavior. A lot can be justified by somebody who's fighting for their survival. And then as somebody who's at a certain point in my life, I also related to this guy. I'm just seeing so many things that I loved in my neighborhood, in my city, changing and seeing everything becoming a bank. I really related to him in that way.

I will say that The Bear can be a pretty stressful watch. You know, there's yelling often, adrenaline always. And there's, you know, this anxiety that pulses throughout a lot of the time. What is it like to film? Does it feel that pitched as you're doing it? Does it feel that like high octane? It's funny for me to think about like a set that would be

Like how the scenes are. Like they call cut and then everyone's screaming at each other and putting out the cigarettes that were in the scene and lighting up cigarettes that they're going to smoke in between takes. No, I mean, to make something that alive feeling in a way, I think, you know, it takes an enormous amount of rehearsal between the actors, between the actors in the camera department and the props department. Like we have such a deep and wonderful crew.

That, you know, it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening. I think the people involved in making The Bear listen a lot more than Richie, Sidney, and Carmi. So it's a very loving, fun, calm, well-run set.

I want to play a scene from season three of the show. The restaurant is getting off the ground, but both Richie and Carmi are still battling. They've just had a huge fight on the first day of service for friends and family, and they really yelled hateful things at each other. The character Richie even calls Carmi Didi, which is Carmi's mom's name, and calling that maybe one of the biggest things.

insults Richie could give because, you know, that mom is pretty, you know, troubled. Anyway, they're trying to get back on track and have the restaurant be successful, but they have different ideas about how to do that. So here's the scene. Hey, Chef Sid, have you seen my iron? Also, when you have a sec, would you ask Chef Carmen what the f***

I did with my tables up front? Chef Sid, would you please tell Richard that I thought I would set him up for success and arrange his tables in a more efficient pattern? Is that what you did? Yes, that's what I did. It was really funny. I walked in, and it was so strange. It looked like the person who had done it previously had never left the city of Chicago. I can leave the city of Chicago out of it. Zero flow, no efficiency, so I thought I'd give you a hand. Chef Sid, would you tell Chef Carmen that I can give him a f***ing hand if he wants? He wants to give me a f***.

I just might suggest that the both of you stop because I don't like this at all. It's fine. Chef Carmen uses power phrases because he's a baby replicant who's not self-actualized, which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser. Richie, I apologize. No, no, no. It's all good. I don't need your apology. I know how you feel now.

Also, I respect your honesty and bravery from inside a locked vault. You know what? Matter of fact, Chef Sidney, I don't remember Richard apologizing for all the s*** he was literally screaming at me while I was in the fridge. Like I love you? Nope. What? You know what? Out there, that's my dojo. S***.

gets rearranged without my approval or consent it creates an environment of fear and fear does not exist in that dojo richard i added more two tops because all those four tops were nonsense okay four tops in the first place the flowers because jesus christ that was a lot of flowers those flowers are apologizing and you're screaming am i yeah yeah you are oh yeah that's easy is it rich richard you want to get out of my face shut please

Sorry, Sid. It's just textbook sublimation. You've seen it once, you've seen it a thousand times. I actually don't know what to do right now. That's a scene from season three of The Bear with Ayo Debrey, Jeremy Allen White, and Eben Moss-Backrack. When a scene is like that with that much screaming, is it written that way or are you sort of improvising how you approach the arguing? That scene. To quote Walter in The Big Lebowski...

Eight-year-olds, dude. That scene was as written. I mean, you know, at this point in Richie's life, you know, he's trying to do some work. He's reading some self-help books. And, you know, I don't really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal. Like, you know, all the self-actualization. And I'm sure there were some changes in words from take to take. But, yeah, I wouldn't call it, like, improvising.

I want to ask you about a few beloved episodes of the show. One is from season two called Fishes, which was a flashback episode going back five years before Michael's death and the changes at the restaurant. And we learn

about their family, the Bersato family. The episode takes place on Christmas. It's a Christmas family dinner. And for those of us who grew up in families where there's a lot of yelling, friction, and also alcoholism, this episode is so good, but it can be triggering.

And I know you say, you know, your favorite episodes of The Bear take place with the family of the restaurant, the staff that works there. But this episode has this impressive group of guest actors like Jamie Lee Curtis as the matriarch of the family. There's also Bob Odenkirk, Sarah Paulson, John Mulaney, Gillian Jacobs, and some of the rest of the regular cast members. Wow.

What was it like filming this episode? Was it as frenetic to film as it was to watch? Yeah, we shot this over two days. It was different. All of a sudden there was SUVs on set and the food was a lot better. That was kind of different. I think that they rolled out the red carpet a little bit for all of our esteemed guest stars that week. Yeah, I mean...

It's funny because these were actors that were so high-powered, and we all know their work so well, but then they were guests on our set. And one thing I've noticed over the years that I've done this is no matter how experienced you are and how many sets you've walked onto, it is always a little bit nervous and you feel a little bit shy, or I feel a little bit shy every time I walk onto a new set. And so I was sort of observing these incredibly talented actors walking

go experience that and I was I don't know I think at least for my part I was very empathetic and trying to make everybody feel at home and welcome

There's an episode that's focused on Richie's character called Forks. And it's great. And it sort of marks a transition for Richie where he seems to find new purpose. It's season two. They're trying to open the restaurant. And Carmi has sent your character, Richie, to train at another restaurant, one that's called one of the best restaurants in the world.

I've read that you found filming this episode to be lonely. It's a quieter episode and you're really the only member of the regular cast in it. What was it like filming this one? Yeah, I mean, I found it lonely in a way. I thought the lighting was cold. It had a very different color to it than the rest of our episodes. There's usually a real warmth in the bear. And this one felt kind of blue and austere.

almost like an operating room. I mean, I really love the people I work with, and my favorite scenes to shoot, like we said, are like the group scenes where, you know, I'm talking with Liza and Lionel and Edwin, and everyone's sort of talking over each other, and there's this shorthand. And here I was without any of those kind of hallmarks of the experience that I'd grown to love and looked forward to, and...

I was working with all new actors. I remember the layout of this restaurant was so confusing. I could never find where the bathroom was or where my little chair, I carved out some little, I put my chair in like some corner where I could sort of be alone and look at my lines and think about scenes and stuff. And I could never find my way back to it. I was just confused, I think, most of the time. I think that comes out in the episode, actually. Yeah.

That's darkness and that confusion. Yeah, I mean, it's an episode that I don't... I've seen it once kind of through, you know...

squinting eyes behind hands. It's just a lot of me for me to take in, to be honest. One thing that's heartbreaking about Richie is how he mourns the end of his marriage. And because of flashbacks, we know that it seems like on the timeline, as recently as five years ago, Richie and his wife were together. They were about to have a baby and they were very much together. But by the time we meet Richie five years later, his marriage is

Hey. Hey, how are you? I'm great. I'm great. What's going on? Is Eve okay? No, she's great. She's totally great. Oh, yo, Jimmy, um...

I got those Taylor Swift ticks. You did? Yeah. She's going to be so excited. I know. It's incredible. Actually, I got three if you want to come. You don't have to. No, no, no. That's so sweet. That's so sweet. I just, I know you're really busy, so I wanted to just tell you something. And it's a little bit hard to say. Okay. Are you all right? I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine.

I just want you to hear it from me. Frank proposed to me. What'd you say? I said yes. He's like a really good guy. That's great, Tiff. And I want you to know that nothing's going to change between us. That's awesome. You know. And I love you.

That's a scene from season two of The Bear. Will we learn more about what happened to their marriage in that relatively short period of time? Yeah, that scene. Bear. A comedy. Yeah, that scene's brutal. First of all, Gillian Jacobs, such a great actress. I love working with her. Unfortunately, most of her scenes are phone calls because they don't have much of a relationship anymore. Actually, I do think there's a lot of tenderness there and she genuinely loves him. Yeah.

Do we learn more about what happened with them? We spend more time with them together as parents, as exes. In terms of like a literal sense of like a flashback of the two of them, that's not something that we've shot. Do you do work to fill in what might have happened to them?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I spent a lot of time kind of daydreaming and thinking about these things and filling in the blanks. And these are thoughts and fantasies and ideas that I will never share. Understood. I think one thing that makes viewers love Richie is the way that he is with his daughter. Even though he's divorced, he's so devoted to her and doing the right thing for her.

by her and trying to be a good dad, besides having what seems like a tough upbringing where he sort of, you know, so much so that he becomes part of the family that owned the restaurant. You have two daughters, and I think that being a parent of girls can be a very specific parenting experience. What did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father? I mean, some of the things that are...

challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world like loyalty honesty in a way you know so these things i think are sometimes hindrances and sometimes you know they're really great qualities and i wanted i wanted to see the kind of converse of some of these things in in his relationship with his daughter

Obviously, he's a dad that would do anything for his daughter, like so many parents, like most parents I would say. And then he's really into her world. And where he doesn't listen as well on the outside with her, his time with her is so limited that it's so valuable. And I think each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present in a way that he's not when he's at the restaurant. I also...

I don't know, I just enjoy doing scenes with that little actress so much. I think she's so great. And I don't know, she's so fascinating. She's such an eccentric young girl.

There's a scene later in that episode where Richie has completely won everyone over at the fancy restaurant. He's really getting it and getting the value of his work. And he's driving home singing along to the Taylor Swift song Love Story. And it's this great triumphant moment for Richie. How did that moment come about? Like, was that always the song? I read you weren't necessarily a Swifty before you shot this.

It's just such a great moment. Yeah, it is a great moment. I'm not going to comment about my swiftiness or non-swiftiness, but that's a minefield either way. It's just... I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, I can't believe I did that to you. Yeah, please, please. Come on. But I think that scene is a great scene. And it's so nice to...

spend just a few minutes like singing something loudly and celebrating and and having exuberance and and and and drive you know driving and and singing along with a song that you love loudly i mean that's such a visceral great kind of release something that we don't see that much i think in movies and tv shows are certainly certain stuff that i'm not being asked to do all that much um so i

Yeah, I really enjoyed that evening. I love those speed bumps. I love the squeaks, the squeak of the suspension in the car. But that was always written with that scene. I'm sure it was a process, finding her, tracking her down, getting permission to use the song. But I don't really know about the details of that process.

Well, there's something perfect about that song because it's like a triumphant young love story, which seems like an echo to Richie's story. And then also just that he got her Taylor Swift tickets. That's like, I mean, that's like dad of the year material. So I feel like just...

Wraps it all together. And then also as you're driving, you're still cursing as you're driving. The character Richie is still cursing at other drivers, which I think is also pretty Richie. Yeah. And what you couldn't see is all these Arby's, these empty Arby's cups in the backseat just jumping up with every kind of speed bump, the chaos within the car.

My guest is Eben Moss-Bakrak. The new season of The Bear premieres this week. More after a break. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado, and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it.

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado, back with actor Eben Moss-Bakrak. He plays Richie on the FX show The Bear. Season 4 starts this week. Moss-Bakrak has won two Emmy Awards for Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series for the role. He starred as Desi in the TV series Girls and was in shows including Andor and The Punisher.

He started out as a stage actor, and next year, he'll make his Broadway debut in a stage production of Dog Day Afternoon. Next month, he stars as Ben Grimm, a.k.a. The Thing, in the new Marvel film The Fantastic Four First Steps.

One of the first film roles you had was in the Wes Anderson film, The Royal Tenenbaums. You played a bellboy at the hotel where Royal Tenenbaum played by Gene Hackman, where he lives. Here's a little bit of that scene or all of that scene. Yeah, for sure. There's a call for you, Mr. Tenenbaum. Who is it, Frederick? A Mr. Pagoda.

That's you in the Royal Ten Bounce. What was it like being in this film? Was it one of the first times you were on a set? And if that's true, what do you remember about it? I rewatched that movie the other day with one of my kids. And God, it's such a good movie. Yes. I'm so happy to be a part of it, even in this tiny, tiny little way. And I think finally enough time has gone by where I was like, you know what? I'm pretty good as Frederick the Bellhop. I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay.

It was the second time I was on a set, probably my first time in such a fancy hotel. I remember mostly Wes Anderson's attention to detail, him coming down like a tailor and sort of adjusting the

The hem of my pants, fixing my hair, adjusting my little pillbox hat. I mean, I got that part because I had quite a good head of hair. Yeah, at the time you had kind of curly hair that comes out of the pillbox, sort of at the bottom. Yeah, exactly. And it kind of explodes. It's like an upside down volcano or something.

Well, one of your breakout roles was in the TV show Girls. You started out as a guest star who is only going to be in a few episodes, but then became a series regular. When viewers meet you, you're auditioning for a Broadway play and you meet the character Adam, who's played by Adam Driver, who's also gay.

auditioning and just starting out. And by the way, Desi is a successful actor. You know, he auditioned for a Broadway play and he got the role. How did you see Desi? I saw him as a little bit of a con man, really well put together on the outside, but a lot of crisis and chaos going on internally, a bit of a searcher. I feel like he was

not committed necessarily to acting. He was a musician. I'm sure he painted and a lot of maybe like clothing that if I'm being like really not charitable, like maybe pre-distressed jeans. Yeah. A lot of pre-distressed denim. Yeah. Um, um, but also, you know, somebody that felt very deeply loved deeply, um,

A baby? Yeah, a little bit. I want to play a scene from Girls. Here, Desi is a regular cast member and is now with the character Marnie. They started out as a musical duo with some success.

Eventually, Marnie and Desi get married, but they're also this musical duo too. In this scene, they're arguing about what music to use in their upcoming showcase for a record label, which is important to their future career as musicians. Here's the scene. You know what? We should open our showcase with this song. We only get two songs for the showcase. Yes, we get an opener and a closer, and this should be our opener.

Yeah, I mean this is a great song. Thank you. But this is now one of our top two. What do you like better?

Rattlesnake Cowgirl, Heart for Sale, Whoa Wow Wonderful, a song from Marcus Garvey, Oaxaca Blues, Cocopelli Shelley. I mean, that's top six right there. Yeah, I know. I just feel like it's our chance to show some range. Okay. See, when I think about the showcase, we put our best foot forward. Agreed. And if half of our set is a syrupy love song, that's a total mislead, babe, you know? But we sing love songs. Not really. We sing like...

Modern American folk with an indie edge. I tell people that we're like She and Him, but with actual romance. But we're nothing like She and Him. We're not? Whoa. You're blowing my mind right now. Marnie, we are nothing. I hope we're like She and Him. My God. We are nothing. Are you kidding me right now? You're freaking me out. We are nothing like She and Him, okay? We are nothing like that band. How can we have...

Completely different takes on the same band that we were both in. That is bizarre to me. I'm starting to wonder if maybe you don't like Close Up because I wrote it instead of you. No, I like this song. Are you sure? I loved this song. Okay. What do you mean loved this song? And then you told me that you're writing she and him songs. And now like my whole, I got to do a heavy rethink here. How about we talk about the partnership that I thought we were in. We're in a partnership. No, recently it's just been me writing while you tinker with your motorcycle.

That's my mode of transportation, Marnie. That's my mode of transportation. That doesn't change anything. That's how I get... That's weak, dude. That's my mode of transportation.

That's a scene from Girls. Did you watch Girls at the time when it was airing? I didn't, no. I watched a little bit of it the first season, but I also was like so jealous that I really wanted to be a part of it. And so it was complicated for me to watch it. It was filming right there. It was filming like right by you. Yeah, exactly. I would walk by. And then once I was working on it, I wouldn't watch it much just because I didn't want it to sort of affect anything.

the way I was going to continue to work on it. You know, I didn't want it to make me self-conscious. What do you think of that scene? Oh my God, that scene. That list of songs is really, really funny. Let's take a short break and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Emmy Award winning actor Eben Moss-Backrack. His show The Bear begins its new season this week. More after a break. This is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Anne-Marie Baldonado, back with actor Eben Moss-Backrack. Next month, he stars in the new Marvel film, The Fantastic Four First Steps. He's won two Emmys for his portrayal of Richie on the FX show, The Bear.

Next month, you truly enter your Marvel era. You've been in the Marvel Universe before, but you're becoming a main character in the new movie, The Fantastic Four First Steps. You play the character Ben Grimm, who develops mutant supernatural powers and becomes The Thing. This first movie is coming out, and then you'll reprise your role in the two new upcoming Avenger films.

So you're definitely in for more than one movie. What was it like being in this film? Yeah, very different kind of part for me. I guess the biggest departure would be that it's motion capture, performance capture. So I wear these groovy looking pajama kind of tights and top. And then I have wires strapped to various points of my body. And then I have a helmet with...

Kind of GoPro-looking cameras, kind of on little extended gimbals right in front of my nose to sort of capture my eyes and my mouth and my facial expressions. And what space are you in when you're doing this? I'm in on the set. I haven't seen the movie yet, but one thing I do know is that the art department and our production design is really spectacular. So they're really...

Pretty incredible set builds, like things that I had never seen before. That reminded me of old-style, like D.W. Griffith kind of movie-making, huge, big, sprawling sets of New York and Times Square and the Lower East Side, incredible mid-century modern house that the Fantastic Four live in. So I'm just on all these really cool sets and very much involved as I would be. I'm just in there.

with the other people in the scene and I'm interacting with them and they're in costumes and I'm just sort of in this other strange techie kind of placeholder for what will then be built around me animated this much bigger orange rock guy.

Can you describe your character, Ben Grimm, who is the thing? I'm not sure how much of the original story from the comic book series and from other movies are still part of this character. You know, people feel so strongly about this. You can't stray too far from the path. You got to keep it pretty canon. Ben is from the Lower East Side. He's from Yancey Street, which is maybe like a little bit like Delancey Street, maybe.

And he's a school friend of Reed Richards. He's a football player. He's a wrestler. He becomes a star pilot, really amazing pilot. And Reed is this genius scientist that convinces Ben and his wife Sue and her brother to go up and to steal the ship and go into outer space.

And there's like a storm, some kind of space storm, and these gamma rays penetrate the ship and they all return, changed forever. Ben is more changed because he has physically been altered. He has this new rock kind of dermis, which is so he looks like a monster. And he doesn't change back and forth like the Hulk or anything. That's just how he is for the rest of his life, with a couple of exceptions. Yeah.

Oh, that's right. Yeah, your character stays as a rock. Yeah, that's really key to his psyche, I think.

I haven't seen the Fantastic Four yet, but I like that you're playing another character that has this rock exterior. In this case, literally, he's made of rock. You said that this acting compared to your other roles, it's almost like another job. I was thinking that you show so much emotion through your face and through your physicality. What did you mean that it's almost a different kind of job? What are other ways that it's different?

I would think about it a lot in two ways. Over the course of a day, my brain would go back and forth. One speed was that I was just trying to imbue this character with as much humanity as I could. Because I felt like I had to, in some ways, fight through all of this animation. And because I was interested in...

I think it kind of was similar to probably Ben's experience on a day where he knows how he seems and he knows he looks like this horrible monster, and so he's making concerted effort to bring his humanity through to make people feel okay, to make people feel less-- to make people be less mean towards him, to sort of undercut his external appearance. So I had that-- that was going in one way, while simultaneously, I always had all this physical freedom, and that in many ways,

This technology and this animation was like a mask. And I wasn't confined to my body and my physical appearance the way that I am for any other part I've ever done. So there was things I could do with movement, with heaviness, and the way he would... His huge hands, huge feet, the way he would interact with things. So that became a much more imaginative...

fantasy, sort of almost like how I would play make-believe when I was a kid. So you are thinking about movement in a different way. Yeah, well, certainly. I mean, I had to. He couldn't really move the way that I can move. I mean, he's very, very heavy. He weighs thousands of pounds. At the same time, he's very nimble, but

I mean, I'm a kind of uncoordinated, lanky sort of, I don't know, wet rubber band or something. So he's a much heavier, grounded dude.

Now, it was recently announced that you will be on Broadway next year in a stage play, Dog Day Afternoon. It's based on the same real-life robbery that the 1975 movie Dog Day Afternoon was based on. You star with John Bertholdt, who...

who is someone you co-star with in The Bear. You were also on the show The Punisher with him. And I think you've done plays together. I actually read that you recommended him for the part of Michael on The Bear. Is that true? Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I got you on that job. So he got me this Dog Day Afternoon gig. So now I read it. Well, so what was it about him that you thought would be good for Michael? Yeah.

Who's the best friend and, you know, the brother who passed away who committed suicide. And we don't really see him, correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't really see him at all in the first season until maybe just the very end of the season in a flashback. I think that's true. Am I remembering that correctly? I think something like that. And in my mind, when I was reading the scripts, I kind of felt like we would never see him. And I thought that that was probably the way to play it because he's so talked about. He's this specter sort of informing everything. And I just...

thought it would be disappointing or maybe... I just like that idea of let everybody in the audience, let them have their own idea of who this person is who's larger than life. And so when Chris Storr, our showrunner, was asking me if I thought I've had any ideas for who could play Michael Bersotto, I was like, I don't think we should ever see him. I just think that will just diminish anything.

And then at one point I did, I was like, you know what, actually, John is such a larger than life, magnetic, charismatic person. I was like, you know, what would you think about John Bernthal? And I suspect that Chris all along was sort of encouraging me to reach out to John. I think I'm pretty sure that he all along, this was, he was just waiting for me to come to this meeting.

I think John's terrific, really, really great in this part. And also one of the few actors that could fill the shoes of this guy. What is your connection to the story in the film Dog Day Afternoon? Because you'll be playing the role of Sal, which was originated by the actor John Casale, who appeared in only five movies before passing away too young. But the five movies were the godfather of the conversation. Yeah.

Godfather Part II, Dog Day Afternoon, and The Deer Hunter. He was also a theater actor, like an actor's actor. I was wondering if a young Evan Moss Bacharach dreamed of having an acting career like John Cazale. Oh, 100%. I mean, what a gift. What an incredible gift he was. Yeah, The Conversation is probably my favorite movie. Yeah.

I mean, it's a tragedy that he died so young. A lung cancer. Yeah, in his short time here. Oh, my gosh. What a force. So, yeah, I do feel, you know, it's like,

I'll try to do my best to honor this guy, but we're going to make it a bit different, make it something else. Yeah, so it's based on the same source material, which was this true story of a bank robbery that happened in New York, and that became the movie. But the playwright is going back to that original material, too. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on in that robbery and before that robbery that's not in the movie. That's really interesting that we're digging into. There's a lot there.

When you announce something like that, a Broadway show that you're going to do next year, what is the process of preparing? Because I'm sure you're doing other things too, but is it just that that's sort of when it fits into your schedule or do you do things in the year lead up or both?

My process right now is to pretend that it's not happening for as long as possible and to delay, delay, delay. But yeah, I don't know. I'm very, very, very excited to do this thing and to spend a few months with my dear friend John, and I'm sure it'll be a wonderful cast. And I like nothing more than like working on new American plays. It's kind of my favorite thing to do, to be in that rehearsal room when the writer's there, the writer's alive, they're there. It's a work in progress. Yeah.

It's a deep, deep collaboration between writer, director, dramaturg, and the whole cast. It's like everyone's getting their hands dirty. It feels very alive and exciting. And it's been a long time since I've done that. Edmund Moss-Backrack, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Eben Moss-Backrack speaking with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado. His film, The Fantastic Four, First Steps, comes out next month, and season four of The Bear premieres tonight. After a short break, TV critic David Bianculli reviews a new documentary about Jane Mansfield by her daughter, Mariska Hargitay. This is Fresh Air.

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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. This is Fresh Air. On Friday, HBO premieres a documentary film called My Mom Jane. It marks the directorial debut of Law & Order SVU star Mariska Hargitay, who sets out in the film to learn about her mother, who died in a car accident when Mariska was three.

Her mother was Jane Mansfield, the famous movie star of the 1950s and 60s. Our TV critic David Bianculli says that My Mom Jane turns out to be much more intimate and full of genuine surprises than he expected. At the very start of My Mom Jane, producer and director Mariska Hargitay lays out the basic facts as she knows them about her parents, siblings, and early childhood.

She has only the vaguest memories of her mother, Jane Mansfield, the sex symbol star of such films as The Girl Can't Help It and Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter. Jane Mansfield died in 1967 in a car crash at age 34, when Mariska, one of her mother's five children, was only three. She was raised by her father, who also was a celebrity of the 1950s.

He was Mickey Hargitay, a former Mr. Universe. And to young Mariska, he was the only parent she ever really knew. My dad, who was my rock, died in 2006. And there were so many questions that I never asked him. I've also never really talked to my siblings much about their experiences. But I want to understand her now because it's a part of my life and a part of me.

That's always felt locked away. One method Mariska Hargitay uses to unlock her family secrets is to do the research she had previously avoided. She reads celebrity tell-all biographies and magazine articles and collects as many of the existing TV and movie appearances and recorded interviews as she could. Mariska's mother was raised in Texas, played classical piano and violin, and spoke several languages.

She married young and persuaded her then-husband to move with her to Los Angeles to pursue her dream of a career in show business. He didn't last long, and neither did their marriage.

But Jane Mansfield persisted and explained in an early interview how her plans for being a serious actress were affected by the way some people responded to her looks and especially to her very curvy figure. I did a soliloquy from Joan of Arc for Milton Lewis, who was the head of casting at Paramount Studios, in order to audition for...

And he just seemed to think that I was wasting my, as he said, obvious talents. And he lightens my hair and tightens my dresses and this is the result. In 1955, when she was only 22 years old, Jane Mansfield became a Broadway sensation as the scene-stealing co-star of the comedy Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?

Movie roles followed quickly. First as the sexy star of the early rock and roll film The Girl Can't Help It, which also featured Little Richard and Fats Domino. Then in the movie version of Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter. Also in that film was Groucho Marx, who later welcomed Jane Mansfield to his TV show Tell It to Groucho.

By that time, she was trying to shake her sex symbol image. But as a clip from Groucho's show illustrates, even her strongest supporters couldn't resist perpetuating it. Actually, and I've told this to other people, you're not the dumb blonde that you pretend to be. And I think the people ought to know that you're really a bright, sentimental, and understanding person.

And this is a whole facade of yours that isn't based on what you actually are. Oh, that's sweet of you. Thank you so much. I think you're aware of that, Jane. This is a kind of an act you do, isn't it?

Oh, it's, you know... Most people don't know that, though. I think that it's like this. The public pays money to box office to see me a certain way, and... And they get their money's worth, too. So I think it's just all part of the role I'm playing as an actress. My mom Jane is equally thorough about looking into Mickey Hargitay's past and how he and Jane Mansfield met and fell in love.

But after delving deeply into the public record of films, TV clips, and vintage interviews, Mariska takes an even deeper dive into the private record. She interviews her brothers and sisters, who share detailed memories with her for the first time, and who are invaluable contributors as both sources and on-camera supporting characters. Mariska also examines the vast contents of a family storage locker that had remained unopened since 1969.

And like the determined detective she's played on Law & Order SVU since 1999, Mariska follows the clues wherever they lead. Those clues include faces cut out of family photographs and stories about that fatal car crash, which, it turns out, was survived by the children in the car, including young Mariska.

By the end of this documentary, the information she's uncovered upends and rewrites much of what Mariska Hargitay knew about her parents and herself. The first half of My Mom Jane is a somewhat standard, well-done biography. But the second half shifts into a wild, emotional mystery story. Eventually, there's a lot of hugging and a lot of closure. And every bit of it is arrived at honestly.

As a first-time documentary filmmaker, Mariska Hargitay has done something special here. But as a daughter telling the unvarnished truth about her parents, she's done something even more impressive. David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the documentary My Mom Jane, which premieres on HBO this Friday. My Mom Jane

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I don't want expensive treasures. I prefer the simple pleasures. Like a long fellow poem. A Cadillac Brougham. A villa in Rome or in Spain. I'm just.

Lane James. Oh, Jamie, you're just too marvelous. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Pulitzer Prize-winning fashion critic Robin Gavon joins us to discuss her new book, Make It Ours, Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh. She traces the late designer's unconventional path to luxury fashion, how he challenged tradition and opened once-closed doors.

and why she believes he may be one of the last of his kind. I hope you can join us. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.

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