Melinda Bremley: How to Assess and Hire Top Talent for Your RIA
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How do you become a transformative leader? Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward podcast. My guest today is Melinda Bremley. Melinda is a partner at Chapman & Co. Leadership Institute.

In our conversation, Melinda delves into the traits that differentiate top leaders, the value of critical thinking and emotional intelligence, and how organizations can use assessments to identify and nurture high potential team members.

She also shares practical advice on navigating tough conversations, including performance reviews, and she discusses the balance that's needed between ego, confidence, and collaboration in order for you to be an effective leader. With that, here's my conversation with Melinda Brimley.

Some people rise to the executive level of a company, but most people don't. So in your experience, what are some of the traits or characteristics that separate someone who rises to the top from those that don't? There are a few key things that come to mind, and this is based on doing this type of assessment work for 30 plus years. I've seen a real range of leaders and executives who

from this assessment lens to say, hey, when I just look at their psychological assessments, we look at cognitive abilities and we look at personality. What are some of the things that we see that really are more standouts at the very senior level of a company versus more of the entry levels? And frankly, as my work has evolved, I do tend to work more at the senior levels. So certainly one of the things that comes to mind is change agility. People

People might think, oh, that's only important in more recent days, but actually this has been important forever. It's can you flex? Can you adjust? Can you keep your cool in times when there's so much going on around you that you're able to stay focused on something, but also thinking about what do we need to do next? How do we manage this? Is it the end of the world or what can I do about it? So those who are more successful, take a look at that.

tend to be very comfortable kind of looking forward and saying, how do we handle this? What do we need to do instead of how could this have happened? This isn't fair. This isn't right. That they just don't get dug in there. Hey, we might look at that later, but for right now, I'm going to deal with where we need to go. So that's one big piece of it. But another piece that kind of flavors that a little bit is something we call critical thinking ability.

And this is very widely used in the assessment industry. It's the concept of using logic and reasoning to make decisions versus having had experiences you can draw on. So if we think about our careers and how they've evolved, your first job, Steve, you probably were given a playbook to learn. Would that be true? Or what was your sense? So, hey, here you show up your first day.

This is what we need you to do. Figure it out. And if you're really quick to learn that, you look really good. If it takes you longer, it just might take you longer to make that positive impression. That would be what we call problem solving ability. How easily, how quickly can I learn the playbook? And that's often what we think of when we think about school and how we've done in school. We're sitting there passively. We have teachers teaching us. Can I tell them what I've learned? That's great. And you get promoted for learning that playbook.

Until a certain point in your career where you sit there and you're like, okay, I've got this new role, this new job, but they're not giving me a playbook. What happened here? What do I do now? This is when critical thinking comes into play.

And this is when you can use this capacity to use logic and reasoning to anticipate what's around the corner. Here, can I figure out what might happen next? Does it matter what I've done in the past? Does it matter what I want to happen next? Can I really be objective and just deal with the realities of, hey, I think there are these three possible paths that we could take.

When I look at the three of them, this one makes the most sense. And that's what we found time and time again at the very top. Both of those components are

are very important and they are harder to just will yourself to do better at, if that makes sense. It does. Yeah. So what, two or three decades ago, Daniel Goleman wrote a book about emotional intelligence. And so I didn't hear you say emotional intelligence. So what role does that play in rising up to the executive ranks? I would say, I didn't mention it as a distinction because we need that all along the way.

So this is something that early days as well, we need emotional intelligence in order to be successful in our roles. Unless we're sitting there in just some little box job where it's just some clear black and white process. But even then, we know that people who have stronger EQ,

are going to be more successful in those roles. So we need it throughout, but does it help at the very top level? Absolutely no doubt that individuals who are able to understand the people part of the equation definitely are more successful. And notice I'm not saying that they are more always people-minded. It's like they are thoughtful about the people elements, but they're also very thoughtful about the business elements.

And so they use both EQ and IQ.

But it is something that EQ we have found, we can help people a bit more with that as they go. That you may not start out with really strong EQ, but we can work with you. We can coach you on picking up some behavioral tips and strategies that can help you get much, much, much better at something than you might naturally have been. Yeah.

Yeah, and I was going to ask you that about the EQ. Is that trainable? You're suggesting that in some respects it is. What are some ways that you can train or you can coach people to be more emotionally intelligent? First, it would depend on sizing up their situation to say what's really required here. If you're in a leadership position,

Paying attention to the signals from the team around you is going to be critically important. That you need to be aware of what do your team members value? How do they communicate? Are you tuning in to the team?

to their signals from you. So that's a big piece that maybe you didn't need as an individual contributor that might not have been an emotional element that was going to make or break your success. But as you become a leader, now all of a sudden, this is a very important component to say, hey, can I pay attention and notice that my team members are all different from one another? And on top of that,

They're actually different from me. And as leaders, that's one of our biggest issues is assuming everybody likes it the same way we like it. And instead we find out, whoa, this is completely different. The way what motivates and engages them, how they operate, do they need to be reminded or not? It really depends on the person. And if I'm not at all tuned into that,

I may not do well, but it is something I can get better at just through some discipline and some practice. One of the areas where I find a lot of leaders have difficulty having conversations, having that emotional intelligence is when they're giving a performance review. So in that particular scenario, what advice, thoughts do you have for people who are

are delivering a performance review and maybe they have to deliver some constructive feedback. They're feeling awkward about it. They don't want to upset the person, yet they got to deliver some news here. So what can we do to make that

both constructive and then also hopefully have the person receiving the feedback embrace it in the way that it's meant and the way that it's designed to be delivered. I'm smiling because this is a very common one that nobody is, wow, I get to do performance reviews today. They're like, oh my gosh, I've got performance reviews. I need to eat my Wheaties today.

Definitely an area that we can help people with as coaches and just trying to care for our team around us is one of the things that I focus on is actually that coaching word that I'll talk with people and say, how do you feel? What are you worried about?

doing this performance review? What is it that gets you stressed and anxious? I'm evaluating them. I'm giving them a grade and they don't like this oral report card type of discussion. It's uncomfortable. It's awkward. All right. So let's think about what happens if you don't give them this feedback.

Are they going to improve? I'm not sure. Don't you think they would have improved if they knew they needed to work on it or do they need help or assistance? Maybe. So you have to convince people that this is not just somebody who is choosing not to do something.

flagrantly to annoy you. All right. Typically, if you've got something that you want to discuss with them, the odds are good. They may not even really be aware of what they're doing or how they're doing or the impact that it can have. And so if you view yourself as a coach to them, you're typically going to have a different type of cadence to the conversation. So one of the first things I'd say is do your homework.

Be thoughtful about it. Don't wing it. All right. The form is there to help you get ready for this conversation. It's not the be all end all of it, but it is there to help you get ready for a conversation. So do your homework and be thoughtful of examples that you can give. But instead of jumping into this dialogue and saying, OK, Steve, I'm going to give you your review now.

Let me tell you where I gave you an A, where I gave you a B, et cetera. Say, Steve, we're going to talk about your performance today. I'd like to start by hearing from you. Tell me how you think things are going. How are you doing? And you can have some key questions that you may have ready in advance. You want that person to be prepared for it. And they usually will, right? For a performance review, they know it's coming. It's not a surprise meeting.

So you give them a little bit of a intro to talk about it themselves first.

they almost always will call out things that you also have on your list in terms of, I don't feel as good about this, or I'm not sure how to cross the finish line with this. I've been trying this for six months and I haven't made progress. So get the conversation going with that. And notice I said conversation, right? It's not a monologue. It's a conversation with them.

And so ask them what they think and then say, all right, I've made some notes here as well.

Are you interested in my perspective? Who's going to say no, but that psychological process of asking them, are they interested? They're like, yeah, I am interested. Okay. And they'll lean forward a little bit. Tell me more about this. And that's when you rely on your notes. And I always am like, Hey, refer back to what they've said. Hey, you mentioned that you're really getting frustrated working with Bob over in accounting that you feel like you're getting slowed down and you don't know how to work more effectively with him.

I've noticed that too. Let's talk about some behaviors that you're showing that maybe aren't as productive. Do you see these things for yourself? So it's all about getting them to have more of a discussion about it, where you let them ask questions as they go, that it's not just you imposing judgment on them and reminding yourself,

This is a gift that you're giving them that's going to be helpful. And I often preface it when I'm getting a person ready for this. They'll say, oh, but I really like my team and I don't want them to feel down about this performance reviews. And so I just don't want to be the bad guy, Melinda. I don't know how to handle this. I'll say, OK, so let's say you get this super crazy promotion and you are no longer overseeing this team.

Somebody else comes in and they're not like you and they don't know your team and they're super focused on their business results. They're going to come in and be hard-nosed about how this team is doing. How well have you prepared your team for that leader? Have you helped them out? Have you, in your desire to be kind and generous to them, been straightforward about what they can do to do better? Help them find other strategies and techniques or

Or have you been silent and said, oh, I'll just take care of it for them because I know they tried really hard and I don't want them to feel bad. And that often is the carrot that I find a lot of leaders being like, oh, yeah, I don't want to leave them in a bad spot. So, yeah, maybe I can do it in a constructive way. Yeah.

It's so easy for the person receiving the feedback just to get defensive about it. Talk about this preference saying, hey, would you like to get some feedback? Is that sort of one way to help them get their guard down so that they don't get defensive about the feedback? Absolutely. And I try to focus on

the action mode to say, instead of I'm going to talk this through with you so that I can make you feel really crummy about yourself and lose your confidence, which is what if you're just going to go through a laundry list and then you did this and then you did this and this didn't work and this wasn't an effective, and I was surprised you didn't notice this. They're just sinking in their chair, just going, oh man, I'm not doing anything right. So instead to make it more of a, what do we want to do? Move

Moving forward and should you give examples of what wasn't as effective. Yeah, if it helps illustrate it. That's perfect. They want that they need to know that because they're not seeing it. But if you talk about how can you collaborate more with accounting and

That's more of a strategy that they lean in and are in problem solving mode. How do we fix this? How do we go forward? How do we plan versus getting defensive and feeling like I've got to let them know I'm not as bad as they're saying I am.

Let's go back to the characteristics and the traits of these top leaders. And how do we assess for those in the interview process? And how effective can we be at assessing those in advance using some of the different tools and assessments that you work with?

I would say you take a multi-pronged approach to think about it. First, you step back and you have to say, what are the characteristics that we're looking for in a role? We all think, oh yeah, we're aligned. We're all looking. We know what this financial analyst role is or this advisor role is. We're all aligned on this. You're probably not. So step back first and have a discussion around what are we looking for?

What are the experiences that we feel they must have? What would we maybe like for them to have? But let's calibrate on that. And then also, what are the characteristics that we've learned really do differentiate those who really thrive and succeed versus those who flame out early? Have we learned some things over the past? Let's talk about that with the appropriate parties in the room and just get that out on the table. So that's one piece of it.

Then you screen your candidates, you look at their resumes as you should and say, hey, how are they stacking up on these different things and being practical? Nobody's going to be perfect. How do they stack up on this? Then you're ready to do your interview and you've got hopefully consistent questions that you're going to ask each of those candidates and

so that you learn more behaviorally about their experiences and you don't feed them the answers. This is a common interviewing issue that people have is they'll say, things are really hectic and crazy around here. And you can start the day thinking you're going to do this, but then it changes very quickly. How comfortable are you with change, by the way? Oh, I love change. So you're feeding them the answers. And when we like a candidate, we tend to do that.

And so you have to hold back from that, have a little bit more of a scripted process that ask a broader question about a certain area. And then you ask them to give you a specific example. And I always encourage them to try to think of things that they maybe wouldn't have a pat answer for.

There are so many TikTok videos and advice all over the internet about how to do well in interviews that you want to make it a little bit more challenging so that you get to know

Some real experiences that they've had versus tell me about our time. You succeeded. Tell me about our time. You failed. My failure is I expect too much of myself and I just, I'm too hardworking. Oh, wow. I work 12 hours a day. And yeah. So people know the answers to these things. Try to get in some questions that they don't know the answers to. All right. So those are the fundamental steps, but then the other layer that we recommend that organizations use is an assessment.

And this is where psychologists typically will come in and we'll look at a variety of cognitive ability measures, personality and leadership measures. And depending on the level of the role, how complex it is, they might get a little bit bigger. The number of assessments we give, we might do an interview as well with them.

And what this does, Steve, is it blends in an objective perspective. You've interviewed them. Their resume looks fabulous. We love people who come from this school or work at this company. They showed up so well in our meeting. So then how do we go ahead and make sure that we're really going to get this person when they show up on the job? The assessment helps you take your rose colored glasses off.

As psychologists, our job is to be objective. And we use really well validated gold standard measures that tap into some of these things that that first you may not be able to see in an interview. I mentioned critical thinking ability earlier, right?

You can't really gauge that in an interview. It's very difficult to get a read on that in an hour interview. You typically don't see that until they're months into the job that you actually start to, I know what they're talking about now. And so that's a key piece that we can get that you may not be able to see no matter how good you are at interviewing. But we also can find things that maybe you didn't think to ask about.

or that they haven't had a chance to show you for some reason. One of them might be a classic example, assertiveness upwards. Like we have all these different measures of dominance and that a person may or may not even know as much about how assertive they are upwards because they may not have had a need to be yet. But as you move up the ranks, you have to be more upwards. You have to be able to speak truth to power.

And we can look at that on our assessment. So we broaden what you're looking for. We'll tell you, hey, you asked us to look at these things. Here's how this candidate stacks up on those things. But by the way, here's some other things that you also should know about this candidate. So we are like the multi-pronged approach.

is best. Don't rely on any single method by itself, but boy, when you add all of them together and have good conversation around it, it is extremely powerful at helping you increase your batting rate at getting successful performers in.

I know the DISC profile is pretty popular around organizations. What are some other examples of systems or assessments that you use and what are perhaps some of the pros and cons or situations where you would use this assessment if you're trying to

you know, assess this particular thing and this other assessment if you're trying to get something else that you want to evaluate? It depends on what you're trying to capture from it. I would say the DISC is super popular. Another one you've probably heard of, see the Myers-Briggs type indicator, MBTIO, what's my four letter type? There are a lot of different measures that have

a high level of popularity, but what they tend to do, and they're widely available to people, they give us a good read on how a person sees themselves right now or how they want to be seen right now.

They have real face validity is what we call it, that when you're answering the questions, you know what they're asking for, what they're tapping into. And so you can gear it a little bit. And so they're very helpful for getting to know your other team members. How does this person want to show up? But in terms of reliability over time, we tend to use measures that you pretty much have to be a psychologist to access. We use ones, see,

CPI, 16 PF, PRF, they love the little three letter initials and such, but they are much more comprehensive and you have to be certified to interpret them, but they're also extremely hard to fake.

Because you don't know the right answer. Like, I like yellow cars, the feeling of mud between my toes, and I have cream in my coffee. They're all well-validated statistically to say, hey, people who answered these seven questions this way

are all seen as more flexible by the people around them. And it takes a really long time to create those gold standard assessments for that reason. And I was a psychologist, that's our job is to create those. But once you get them, they are so valuable because people have a harder time figuring out the right answer.

And you're going to see how they really are. And as testament to that, when we give feedback to people who have been through the process, they will often say, they're like, who did you talk to? Did my wife call you? How did you find out all these things? This is crazy how much you're telling about me. And oftentimes we've never even met them. We're just looking at their assessments. I also hear frequently from folks that when they're hiring someone, the first thing that they look for is cultural fit.

So talk to me about how you think about cultural fit. Is that something that we can assess through the types of profiles that you're looking at here?

And just how important is cultural fit relative to other attributes? I'm glad you brought that up, Steve, because we do believe it is very important that it's not just a job across all organizations, across all industries. It really depends. And anybody who's worked at more than one place, right, can attest to that, to say, wow, it's

man, it was like this over here, but man, it just, everything felt different over in this organization. And so being aware of your culture is very valuable for you, certainly in terms of hiring, in addition to all these other wonderful components associated with it. But with hiring, you want to know what are we like? How do our team members describe us to other people? What does it take to be successful here?

And then we do factor that in. We do actually a culture call at the beginning of any assessment process when we're working with a company and we haven't done a lot of work with them in the past. We do a culture call to say, tell us about your culture. And we've got a laundry list of questions that we go through with them so that we get to know how do people handle things? What are the mores? What are the behaviors that you show in your company? And then we look at how

How a person will blend with that. Will that be something that fits very nicely with them? Or is that going to be a horrible culture fit? And we will tell companies that, hey, this candidate, we get why you liked them. They have so many wonderful characteristics and attributes.

They are just not going to thrive in your culture. You guys are very loosey-goosey. You like to think on the fly. You value innovation and creativity. This person wants to know what they're going to be doing every Tuesday at 1035. It's going to freak them out. They're going to have such a hard time in your culture that...

It's something to be aware of. Now, I wouldn't say, oh, totally dismiss them. But I'd say be aware of what it's going to take to help this person succeed, because that's another component of it, Steve, that it's not just will they fit? We're not feeding into a mold. It's nobody's going to be a perfect fit, to be frank.

We're never going to do an assessment and say they are all strengths. There are no weak spots. That's never going to happen. Our strengths have weak spots associated with them. But is this something you're willing to sign up for? Can you manage this? Can you help this person? Are there ways to moderate that rather than just saying, oh, I think this should be good?

I don't have to worry about it. One of the ways that I think about this cultural fit idea is cultural fit versus cultural compliment. And what I mean by that is

If you're just hiring people that exactly fit our existing culture, does the culture have any ability to evolve over time as the environment changes, as your company may go through challenges? Are there times when you purposely say, hey, I want to hire someone who brings a dimension to our culture that isn't there right now, but I know as the leader, I really need it. For example...

We need a real sense of urgency at this company and we don't have a culture of a sense of urgency. So I want to hire some people who are like, boom, let's go. Come on, pick up the pace here. Do you see that happen often? Oh, I'm glad you brought that up because we absolutely do. And that's really more of what we'll say. That's going to be a strategic conversation about fit to say not just what works right now, but, and that's part of our culture call is, is that what you need down the road?

Or are there some things that you deliberately know you need to change?

And the go fast is certainly one of them. Can we move faster? Can we be less bureaucratic? We'll regularly see a discussion around that. And sometimes it's an entrepreneurial company that is trying to really grow and scale that they need more structure. They need somebody who's, hey, I'm going to have a bigger plan. We're going to organize this stuff. We're going to really get a playbook because right now we've got all of you doing whatever works. We can't scale that.

And so we'll see both ends of the spectrum where a company will say, hey, yeah, we know what we've got right now has helped us, but we need to keep tweaking and modifying or just as you described, complementing what we have right now to make it work. I also hear frequently that companies

I just want to hire superstars. I want all A-plus players on the team here. How do you think about the idea of having individual superstars versus having people who do a really good job, but also are fantastic at working as a team and being a team player, as opposed to an individual all-star? Now, that's not suggesting that an individual all-star can't be a team player as well, but I

But how do you think about that in the hiring process? Hey, I want a superstar. Even if they're not a great team player, is that acceptable to bring in someone like that? And when would it be if it is? It's an interesting question. It makes me flashback. There was a CEO of a well-known company in Wisconsin that we were having a conversation about this. And he said, Melinda,

I don't want to hire superstars. Exactly like you described, Steve. He said, I want to hire people who are really team players who can make everybody around them successful. I don't want a superstar because he was viewing it as thumping their chest. Look at me. I'm the one who got the touchdown. We've had that in the past and it hasn't really gotten us where we need to go. And I'm very much in agreement that the team-centric component of it

is essential. And this is, in fact, one of the potential derailers that we'll, because we'll talk about also, we'll call out if a leader has a derailer from looking at their assessment. We'll say, hey, this can really take them off track. And it can be somebody whose achievement drive is too high or

or that it's singular, that they do all their work independently and it's all about getting great press for themselves. They might do well for a certain time period in a certain spot,

where that credential or that deep expertise is valued. But typically, you cannot have a whole organization full of those because they're not going to collaborate like you described. And so we very much look at, can they collaborate? Can they hold their own and have their voice when they need to? Because they have to be able to do that. But can they also listen to the other parties around them and say, this isn't just about what's going to make me look good. What's going to be best for our company?

has to be first. And frankly, there are times when people are attracted to these supposed superstars and they come in and they show up as that and the organization rejects them. That they're like, no, I don't think so. We want you to listen to us too. And they end up not thriving. Well, along the lines of superstars, oftentimes when someone is super successful, whether it's in business or sports or any endeavor, they have a big ego.

So how do you think about the role that ego plays in being successful, the role that ego plays in rising to the top of an organization? How do you or should you control your ego? Do you need to have a healthy ego in order to get to a high level, yet not so self-centered that you're going to turn other people off and not make it to the top? So what role does ego play here?

For the most part, I think we could all safely say that there is a certain amount of ego that we associate with very senior leaders. They have a lot of responsibility. They did not get that accidentally. They have been raising their hand. They have been saying, pick me. I've got this. Let me run with this because they do want to do that. They like to be in the spotlight. They enjoy it. They appreciate feeling valued and admired. And

Can you have too much of that? Sure you can. But there's also a certain amount of that really is beneficial as long as it's not solely focused on the individual and what's going to make them look good at the expense of the rest of the team.

And so on rare occasion, I can think of some different C-level executives that I've worked with where I could candidly say they don't have a huge amount of ego, but they're often in organizations or industries that are a bit more traditional and that expertise, that deep expertise is so valued that

That they're like, wow, they're the one. They deserve to have this. They've really had some great innovations for our company. Their knowledge, their experience is all that we need. And they truly are very humble. But many others where it's, they've been aggressive and assertive to have their ego needs met. But the ones who are most successful, they absolutely temper that with a desire to partner more.

and help the people around them and to focus on the larger team, not just themselves. Yeah, and I think there's a difference here between say the ego, confidence, arrogance, and these are all sort of shades of the same thing, but depending on what direction you shade them, it turns into a negative as opposed to a positive here. Yeah, and that's exactly what we try to call out to clients as they're looking at these executives. They'll do an assessment.

And we'll warn them. We'll say it could be overused. For example, we have a rating scale that will rate them on these competencies that the company says, hey, this is important for our culture. This is important for our position. So we look at our instruments. We try to tap into that and we'll rate them on that. We do have one that is overused that we would say this achievement drive, for example, could go over the top for this person that they may just be so singularly focused on winning that

at all costs, that they are not thoughtful of the longer game that the company wants, that they are actually should have taken a different path in order for it to meet the company's long-term objectives versus their own immediate objectives. And so it's a great conversation to have Steve, because it is very real. You've got to look at all of these factors together.

I had a conversation with Marshall Goldsmith one time, and one of the things that he pointed out was that sometimes leaders want to win too much and that everything is a competition, even things that don't matter. I got to win. And boy, that could be annoying if you're on the receiving end of that.

Yeah, this is when you're sitting there and saying, I've got to be the first one out at that stoplight. Exactly. And I've got to do it. It does. It permeates so much of our being these characteristics that we're measuring. They we don't know, is it we're born that way? Do we develop those characteristics? The safe answer is yes to both.

But we have to be thoughtful of learning and growing about those. And that's really where like executive coaching, I feel has become increasingly popular. It used to be 20, 30 years ago, it was more the people who are going to flame out that they're like, Hey, can we help this person as one last ditch effort? Let's get them a coach. And then they started to think about and say, if we think about coaching, we're

Do we typically, if we think about athletes and such, are they giving the best coaches to the benchwarmers? Or are they spending their coaching dollars on their starters? Maybe we need to flip this in the business world as well. And so they move it over to looking at the people of high potential or the very senior leaders to say, let's give them a coach. And Steve, those are those opportunities for

for us to help them stay tuned in to when it's too much. Because 100%, it can be too much, that desire to win at all costs. I think about GCs that I've worked with, general counsel that I've coached.

And they are just so wired to it's a zero sum game. I'm going to win. And they have it permeate too many parts of their role. And we'll have to stop and say, hey, how is it going with collaborating with the senior team? This isn't a matter of winning and them losing. You all need to win together. Let's talk about that for a minute. And they'll lean in and listen. But it does often take another voice to help them recognize that.

that they can just be too extra at times with these things. We talked a little bit earlier about giving performance reviews and related to that, I hear folks say that sometimes it can be difficult to like evaluate them in terms of how do I know if they're doing a great job? Now that may sound like, well, that sounds kind of obvious, Steve, you know, if someone's going to do a great job or not, but if they,

are talking about, hey, do we need to have some kind of bonus program in place? And if so, what's the bonus going to be based on? And how can I track whether they've got enough work to do to keep them busy all day, particularly if they're working virtually? So how do you think about putting together performance management systems to be able to track how well a team member is performing so that I can actually give a valid performance review?

First, it doesn't happen by accident. And I totally agree with people being confused about what does good look like? Because it comes up commonly that you'll have two leaders and one will say, oh, Bob is fantastic. And the other is what, Bob? No way. He's a train wreck.

And so you want to have some objectivity around that and you don't do it after the fact. All right. And that's where most of us get into trouble is, oh gosh, performance review time. Well, how do I know? What should I say? Let's start by defining on the front end, what good looks like and what poor looks like. What's acceptable? What are we striving for? And I like to encourage people,

It to be a group effort to come up with those definitions and objectives, not just to be one leader's job or even worse to say, oh, HR gets to do this. Let's put it on their list of things to do. How do we make sure that we're measuring the behaviors that we want to see, but also those outcomes that we want to see? And don't make it the biggest New Year's resolution list that nobody's ever going to remember because

Really talk about the things that matter. Talk with them about it early and talk about it with them frequently. But there shouldn't be confusion. You should a good measurement would say if three people were asked to assess a person on this based on your definition and your anchors that you've got of what good and poor looks like, would they agree?

And like a classic example, I'll say is just say, hey, Bob needs to improve his attitude. Oh, great. Okay. Yeah. That's are not great that we're going to have three people agree on how much Bob's attitude has improved, but we can lean in. We can make it much more clear to them, but it is something that takes work and effort. Well, Melinda, is there anything else that you want to add here that we perhaps haven't touched on or something else that you want to

go a little deeper on? I've worked in a variety of different financial services institutions, and there are certain key things that we've seen that are going to be helpful and useful for these types of roles. We want them to be service-minded, right? We want them to care about their customers, their clients, and their performance. I want to do well for them. This is important to me.

They also have to be very tenacious, that there is a lot of different things that they need to do every day and they don't hit the finish line every day. They're often that finish line is way down the road. And there are people who are good at waiting for that to happen, who still stick with it and persevere. And others who are like, oh, I didn't get rewarded. I'm out. So that's

that type of focus is going to be important. And then also I would just say,

Critical thinking comes into play with regard to not always just waiting to be told everything, but listening and thinking about what's going on in the world around you, what's important to your client base around you is important. So an example, I think of this one gentleman that I did some work with, he had done an assessment, he had done a 360 and we talked about a little bit of maybe micromanagement issues that he had. And he was a branch manager and,

And he said, yeah, I was super excited. We had a senior leader from our firm coming to visit my branch. Everything's got to be perfect. We're all super organized. The place looks beautiful. The team's all lined up. And this senior executive comes in and is talking with them, spending time with them. And he was very eager. This leader was the branch manager to keep talking about what he's doing and how he knows so much about.

about what's going on in his branch and he's very proud of this. I'm on it. I am in this. I have a great understanding of everything that's taking place. Near the end of the visit, the branch manager was pulled aside by this senior leader and he said, it's really interesting that

I've been hearing so much from you today, but I haven't really heard a lot from your team. Tell me more about that. I really care so much about this. I personally want to make sure everything is just right for our clients, for our customers. And so I do take the extra time to really know what's happening. I like them to loop me in on everything so that I am totally up to speed, aware of any issues that we may have.

And it just makes me feel better that I'm doing the right thing for the customer. He goes, I felt good about this. The senior leader then says, I could probably do your job better than you, but I'm letting you do it. You might think about that. And he goes, oh my gosh, Belinda, humbling moment. And that still just resonates with me. And I can just, he was just like so proud that customer mindset, which is a great thing

was super beneficial, was going to help him really excel. And he was taking it a bit too far and not realizing some of the negative implications. So it's just a reminder that people are very complex beings and

It's not this easy formulaic algorithm. These people will always behave this way. But it's self-awareness is so helpful to all these individuals and for them to just think down the road of, are there other ways that I could approach this? Yeah, I love that example that you gave there. It makes me think that

We need to look in the mirror more often. And oftentimes when we do that, we're going to realize, oh, I'm the bottleneck here. That if I take on all this responsibility, like that branch manager was doing, we're

the business probably isn't going to grow that far because it's not going to be able to grow beyond that person's ability to micromanage everything. This idea of blind spots, obviously, is something that's very critical. And I think these assessments that we've been talking about here can help shine a light on those blind spots as well. So Melinda, this has been great. Appreciate it. So tell us how folks can stay connected with you and learn more about the work that you do.

I am with Chapman & Co Leadership Institute. I'm a partner with them. And you can look at our website and contact us. We'd be happy to chat with you about assessments. We do a lot of coaching as well and really happy to partner in that front. But we also do a lot of training initiatives that if you need a broader group of individuals who could use some benefit from listening, empowering, delegating, we're happy to help with that as well at Chapman & Co.

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