Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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And time just stands still. The universe has good news for the lost, lonely, and heartsick. Sugar is here. The both of us. Speaking straight into your ears. I'm Cheryl Strayed. I'm Steve Almond. This is Dear Sugar Radio. Oh dear song, won't you please
Share some little sweet days with me. I check my double eyes. Oh, and the sugar you send my way.
Hi, Cheryl. Hi, Steve. So, you know, in our inbox, we get lots of letters from people who are looking for love or whose relationship is imperiled in some way. And we also get a certain number of letters, an increasing number of letters from people who are actually thrilled with the relationship they're in, which we always think, oh, great, fantastic. And then, of course, because it's the Dear Sugar radio mailbox, there's that one thing. There's the butt. There's that big B-U-T. And in this case...
That thing is their career goals. We're going to hear a couple of letters from women who are really quite ecstatic about the relationships they're in, but who also have specific career goals that in their minds and in the world are complicating and imperiling this happy relationship that they're in. Has that ever happened to you? I know listeners of the show know you and Brian have a great relationship, but they also know that you have a high-powered career. Were those two in your mind and or heart ever enemies?
I haven't generally struggled with this in my relationship with Brian because, of course, he is also a freelance artist and I'm a writer, he's a filmmaker. But I do remember when we had first fallen in love and moved in together. So we were committed to each other, cohabitating, and we both felt that this was going to be a relationship that we hoped lasted a lifetime together.
I decided I wanted to go to graduate school. And the thing about graduate schools in creative writing, I wanted to apply to a program that would offer full funding, and there just doesn't happen to be one of those programs in Portland. And so I did have to say to him, I want to apply to graduate school, and I want you to come with me. And we don't know where that's going to be. And will you do it?
happily, indeed, we decided to get married and he moved with me to Syracuse, New York. And that worked out. But when I reflect on these questions, I think about that moment. What if he had said,
What if he had said, I would love to, but I can't? Like, what if he had had a job that did keep him pinned to a specific city? What would I have done? And I have to say, I'm really glad I didn't have to make that decision. The people who have written to us today are being asked to make that decision. Well, in some ways, it's even more complicated because I think...
I think they are asking themselves that question. It's not entirely clear how much it's between these letter writers and their partners, but it's certainly swirling and roiling inside of them. Here's the first letter.
Dear Sugars, I am in love with the most wonderful man. He's smart, funny, hardworking, respectful, patient, and above all, kind. To my surprise, we met online. I couldn't believe how easy it was to talk to him, to be around him, to see him daily. We matched so well, in fact, that by our fourth month of dating, we decided to move in together.
We understood how quick we were moving, but took the chance and will soon be celebrating our anniversary. His face lights up every time he sees me when he walks through the door after a day at work, and every day I rush to meet him. I love him so much that I am terrified for our future. You see, Sugars, he's a military officer.
I'm not afraid of the fact that he's required to relocate every few years. I love change and travel. It's that I'm leaving my current profession to pursue law. He's completely supportive of this move, but the school to which I am accepted may not be anywhere near where he's stationed. Furthermore, as someone who'd like to be employed after graduation, it's likely that where I go to school is also the city where I'll be working for the first years after I graduate."
My boyfriend plans to stay in the military for about four more years as it will further his career expertise and expand his options when he returns to civilian life.
So here's my question. Do I choose to put my career first and go where I believe I'd like to go to law school and set down roots and hope that my boyfriend can maintain a long-distance relationship that will eventually lead him to someday joining me? Or do I put law school on hold, stay at my current job, and follow my boyfriend around the country for a few more years until he leaves the military?
As with anyone who's realized they had something precious, I never want to let this relationship go. On the other hand, I have a wonderful opportunity to better myself. I very much want to pursue this career, but I feel that in doing so, I'm putting it before love. By going to law school, I risk damaging or losing that love. But if I put love first, am I then putting myself and my own career goals last?
Sincerely, to go or not to go? That is the question. That's the question. Well, I think fortunately in this case, it isn't all or nothing. I mean, that signature to go or not to go implies a kind of black and white relationship.
that I don't think you have to make to go or not to go. Two things. First of all, let's look at these two options. Let's just lay them out. One is that you go to law school and you have a long distance relationship for a few years. I do want to say that this idea of like what you'll do after law school, you say it's likely that I will
get a job in the city where I go to school. We don't know that yet. I mean, I would first say, let's look at law school. You know where the law school is going to be. You know it's going to be a certain number of years. I wouldn't really start making plans about what's going to happen after that yet. I think that's premature to worry about that. But it is true if you go to law school, you'll be having a long-distance relationship with your partner. Probably. Probably. Probably, right. We don't even know that for sure. For sure. But the first question I would ask is, are you guys...
built for that. There are many, many, many couples who have endured long times apart. What would that long distance relationship look like? Are these places that you'd be living, are they so far apart that you couldn't see each other every month or so? I mean, you met on the internet. One of the great things about the internet is you can actually stay more connected via Skype and FaceTime and email and all that kind of stuff that allows us to stay connected to people.
Now, on the other front, if you do want to stay with your boyfriend and follow him around, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But only if together you make that agreement that you say, okay, I'm going to follow you these next few years because we don't want a long distance relationship. And then at the end of that time...
Right.
Yeah, I mean, really what happened immediately after graduate school, when I finished at Syracuse, our plan was to move back to Portland. And honestly, like three days before we were to go.
Brian got a job offer that took us to the Berkshires. We went to live in Sheffield, Massachusetts. It's near Great Barrington, Massachusetts. He got a job working for a PBS show. And we just decided to do that because this was something that was going to be good for Brian and I could write anywhere. So we had that kind of...
give and take when it comes to our careers. Right. What's interesting in this letter to me is that there's sort of the reality of the situation that's pretty unclear. There are a bunch of assumptions you're making to go or not to go that seem to be
consciously or unconsciously setting up your love as the enemy of your career or your career as the enemy of your love. So there's the immediate assumption that it would be impossible for him to be stationed at the one law school that's accepted you. And that's not necessarily the case. But even more so, there's the anticipation that after you graduate, you'll have to stay in the same city. And that's simply not true. You're a lawyer by that time, for God's sakes. That's one of the most
mobile degrees you can have. You can practice law anywhere. So my deeper question here- Even in Syracuse. Even in Syracuse and even in Little Sheffield, Massachusetts. And I don't want to be blasé about this. I understand that there are real concerns and that they're exacerbated by the nature of your
Boyfriend's work, his career, which is military, which means there's a likelihood that it's not entirely in his hands where he's going to end up stationed. And one thing that I think you should think about just taking a step back is why do you immediately assume that you should be the only one having to worry about this burden?
And I think this is something we see in both of these letters. And I just have to say it for the record because we know the patriarchy dies hard. This is patriarchal thought in action that a woman immediately assumes that her career goals are secondary or are something that is subject to negotiation as long as the relationship will accommodate it. We don't receive in our inbox, and it might be that these letters are out there. And if so, please write us. But we do not receive this kind of letter from women.
in heterosexual relationships. I think there's something in your taking on that situation that essentially puts you in a circumstance where you're set up to feel responsible if the relationship doesn't work out or if your career doesn't work out. And it feels deeply unfair to you. It's the framing of this as a kind of zero-sum game. You get one or the other that feels to me like a psychological setup that speaks more to people
a fundamental ambivalence about whether you're allowed to have both of those things. Yeah, and I think that what you're pointing to is, you know, this delicate balance that any of us who are in committed relationship has to strike, and that is like, you do want to be the agent of your own life and make decisions and have that sense of independence. You're also doing it in partnership with somebody. So to go or not to go, the number one suggestion I have for you in thinking about these two scenarios is,
The long distance relationship where you go to law school or the waiting and having your partner reciprocate after he's out of his time in the military is that whatever decisions are made, you just you really have to make them together and both be committed to them. Because if only if it's only you making those sacrifices and compromises, you will resent him and then he will resent you for resenting him.
That's the other thing. You know, you don't want to sort of make a sacrifice for somebody and then turn around and two years later, he's like, listen, I never asked you not to go to law school for me. In fact, he's supportive of her career. So you need to really, I mean, it's really about the two of you making a decision about your relationship. So why don't we call our guest? We are going to talk to Leslie Bell. She's a sociologist and psychotherapist and author of the book, Hard to Get, 20-Something Women and the Paradox of Sexual Freedom. Let's do it. Let's give her a call.
Hello, this is Leslie. Hi, Leslie. This is Steve Allman from Dear Sugar Radio. I'm here with Cheryl Strayed. Hi, Leslie. Hi, Cheryl. Hi, Steve. Nice to meet you both. So we have been discussing career versus love and have been offering some counsel to go or not to go. You got that letter, I'm sure. I did. So what are your thoughts? Well, I have a variety of thoughts. You know, I'm a therapist, so I like to ask a lot of questions. Yeah.
One of my thoughts was it's certainly difficult to make this decision before the writer has all of the information. And part of what I'm sensing in this letter is a wish to be able to kind of control the outcome and anticipate everything before it's all decided. The knowledge about where law school is going to be is not clear yet. So that's one thing I feel curious about.
Another thing I feel curious about is sort of, you know, I don't know the age of the writer and whether there's a history of long distance relationships, one having gone bad or not. You know, people have a lot of different experiences with long distance relationships. They're challenging, certainly for most folks, but some people they've had really good experiences and they can lead to long term success.
successful relationships. Others have felt really burned by it. So those are some of my beginning thoughts about it. So in this next letter that we're going to discuss, and I think I should just go ahead and read it because I think it's directly connected to some of these issues that we've been discussing in talking about To Go or Not To Go's letter. Dear Sugars, a little over a year ago, I got divorced. My ex-husband and I were together a total of 10 years and married for six.
We got married very young, right after college. By the end of our marriage, I felt like I had given up so much of myself, my individuality, and my dreams, all in the name of being a loving and supportive wife. The best way I can describe how I felt was that I had withered. My ex-husband's career always came first. For it, we moved to multiple cities where I did not want to live. Nonetheless, I supported his pursuits unconditionally while struggling to find my own way.
When I finally identified what I wanted my life's work to be, I assumed I'd have my husband's support. Instead, he suddenly revealed that he didn't support my career and that he disagreed with the steps I was taking to move it forward. I was devastated. After the divorce, I moved across the country to a city where I truly wanted to be, and I started over. I was determined that going forward, it would be my life that I lived, not someone else's.
The first several months were hard, but I can now say that I love my life. I love the city where I live. I love my apartment. And I love that I'm the only one who decides what I do. I recently got a promotion at work, and now my job is exciting and challenging and is opening up many possibilities for my future. For the first time in my life, I love my job. My problem is this. I'm now being asked to walk away from all of it.
Several months ago, I started dating a wonderful guy. When we met, I wasn't looking for a serious relationship, and he was making preparations to move to South America. He intends to be in South America for a minimum of two years. So we both agreed that the relationship would remain casual and end when he left. It didn't. We ended up falling deeply in love.
There's no doubt in my mind that we're kindred spirits, and I'm constantly blown away by the way he loves me. He truly supports me, and he talks about my long-term goals more than I do. We had the most amazing four months together right up until the day he left. He told me that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me, and he asked me to follow him to South America so that we can be together. We both desperately want to be together, and we both recognize that in order for that to happen, one of us is going to have to sacrifice."
I could never ask him to give up his dream in South America to stay here with me, which means I would be the one to go. I'm fluent in Spanish, so it's not really an issue of my being able to make a life there. It's that the thought of turning away from the life I've built to follow someone else's path brings me to tears. I'm afraid of going back to being the follower. I'm afraid of history repeating itself.
On the other hand, if I decide to stay, my fear is that I would be letting the mistakes of my past and the fallout from a bad relationship dictate my life and hold me back. I feel strongly that if my failed marriage were erased from my life, I'd jump at the opportunity to travel around the world with the man I love. If I stay, I'm afraid that I'd be letting someone who truly loves me walk out of my life for silly reasons.
I've been trying to listen to my spirit, but the more I think about it, the more I feel torn in two. Sugars, I know you can't tell me what to do, but I don't know how to go about making this decision. How do I reconcile these two parts of my life that I love so much? Signed, Torn Between Two Loves. So that's a hard one. Yeah, well, something tells me, Leslie, that you talk with a lot of
Absolutely. I mean, one line that really pops out at me from the writer is she says she could never ask him to give up his dreams. Right.
I mean, he's also head over heels for her. He feels just as passionately about her as she feels about him. And yet, for both of them, it's sort of outside the realm of possibility that he would be considering this. And I guess that's the other thing I thought about with both of these letters is the sense that the woman is left on her own to make this decision as opposed to it being something that they could make together.
And I see that a lot in terms of women trying to navigate relationships and how to move forward in them, feeling as though it's really all up to them.
And it is true that there is a contradiction between how she portrays her partner. On the one hand, he talks about my long-term goals more than I do. And on the other hand, he says he wants to spend the rest of his life with me and he asked me to follow him to South America. As opposed to saying, "Hey, I want to spend the rest of my life with you and I know that I have this trip planned to South America, but maybe we can work out a compromise. Could you come down for six months?"
or you know that's not a discussion it's like the loving continuation of the relationship
is predicated on her making this move. Well, she just got a promotion at work. I mean, I don't think she can come for six. I mean, it's always hard to talk about, of course, the other party. Like, we don't know what this boyfriend, what kind of letter would he write us if he wrote us a letter? Is he having these same sorts of struggles? Like, I can't live without her, and here I am in South America. Should I alter my plans? As Leslie noted, it seems like that's just like not even, it's just off the table. And, you know, she does talk about this
of putting aside her dreams and her life, essentially, her even most basic wishes, like where she wants to live, for a relationship. And, you know, I would really say, I mean, I think long-time listeners of the show know I'm like pro, like, go meet the guy in Sicily and have sex on the beach and, you know, and go for love and, you know, be kind of risk-taking in that regard. But in this letter, I feel a different way.
kind of impulse. And that is like, maybe the riskiest, hardest thing will, in this case, would be to stay and to love, you know, be in that job that you love and, and get another promotion and fulfill those goals. And really, like, if somebody is like really madly in love with you,
They often will then decide that they're going to make sacrifices. I mean, maybe this guy will be like, you know what, I can't do South America because you're not here. Right. I really see it. And Leslie, I'm interested to hear your take. This is, to me, it feels like partly a letter that's about volition.
It really has to do with she had 10 years of being the follower, of subjugating her own needs. And she says at one point at the end of the letter, gee, you know, if my failed marriage were erased from my life, I would jump at this opportunity. To which I immediately responded, but that happened. That was 10 years of your life and it was a dark teacher, but it taught you that you don't want to be a follower. You don't want to be a junior partner in the relationship or an appendage.
And, you know, I just think, and I rarely will be this unequivocal about it, I think she knows that that's a bad move for her. Yeah, and I think especially right now, this woman is just a year out of her divorce. This is a four-month-old relationship. To become the follower that early on, this is the reason you're bursting into tears. Those emotions are in so many ways revealing, you know, your innermost feelings, and that is it breaks your heart to be the follower right now. Yeah.
She says, I was determined that going forward, it would be my life that I lived, not someone else's. So what does she do in a completely psychologically healthy way? She builds a life coming out of this divorce. She moves. She gets a new job. She does well. She establishes a life. And that's the moment.
Along comes a guy who she's crazy about, who essentially says to her, again, it's not his fault, but it is the circumstance. I now want you to not live your life, but to live mine for the sake of this love. And I do think, and Leslie, I want to hear your take on this. I think that's a setup.
Yeah, I'm interested about the line where she also says that if she listened to her spirit, she knows what she would do, and yet she's torn. So I wanted to hear more of her articulating what part of her spirit is invested in staying. We heard kind of the practical reasons. Okay, she has now a job she loves and an apartment she loves and a city she loves.
But my sense is, as both of you are saying, that there is part of her spirit that's attached to her own new life as well, and that is just nascent and is just beginning to be articulated and known to her. And I share your concern that if she were to just follow him, not at this very early stage of the relationship, that part of her spirit wouldn't really get to be developed, the one that's attached to her
her own desires and goals and her own path. Torn between two loves, here's what you say toward the end of your letter, right before that question of sort of following, listening to your spirit. You write,
And what I would say is in that moment, you are completely discounting the seriousness with which you've reconstructed your life and made a life that is fully in your control. And that's hard to do coming out of a long marriage in which you were just the follower. And then...
You just need to hear how quickly you are ready to throw that out the window and say, but next to this great exalted love, those are silly reasons. I don't think they're silly at all. No, it's interesting because she's just established how important they are. Right. So, Leslie, I'm curious about the larger context here, maybe by way of telling us a little bit about the work you've done as a therapist and also, you know, in your book, Hard to Get.
Are you seeing these kinds of questions being asked a lot by women who are in heterosexual relationships? Yeah, I would say there are new pressures, the sense that, you know, we, women are still absolutely conditioned to sort of prioritize relationships over career, but there's a new set of priorities that are both opportunities and freedoms that women have to sort of pursue their dreams. Um,
that are related to career and academic achievement and all of those kinds of things. But they run sort of in parallel tracks and without a lot of help in navigating those, right? So for most young women or even women in their 30s and 40s,
You know, certainly their moms have had their own dilemmas of some variety, but for a lot of young women, their moms led very different kinds of lives and had different choices to make. It may have been after childbearing that they finally sort of started to feel like, oh, now I could really think about having a career or having my life lead my family's sort of path.
So as they're trying to navigate these questions, there are not a lot of models that they have for how they could do this successfully, how they could prioritize themselves and a relationship at the same time. So
So sometimes people do what I describe in my work as splitting the idea that they can have one or the other. There's either a relationship or a career that's possible. And I see that in both of the writers that we're talking about today, the sense that they can't have both. And internally, they feel that. So yes, it's hard in the world. And your writers certainly illustrate that. There are these real dilemmas. But it's also hard sometimes in women's own minds to conceive that both are possible. Okay.
How do you counsel women to understand that both are possible and then to make some practical decisions around that?
I mean, it's sort of along the lines of some of the questions I was posing, sort of, you know, you say you could never ask him, why is that? Like, what is it about his career that seems to be absolutely important? And, you know, and again, the language that you both highlighted about silliness, you know, these are silly reasons. Huh, they're silly. How?
How come? What's silly about prioritizing yourself? What's it like to try on a different idea that these are not silly reasons? What's it like to even conceive of the idea of asking the same thing of him that you're sort of asking of yourself? You know, I don't have an investment in what decision they end up making, but I really want them to be clear about the reasons they're doing that and to feel as though, you
their understanding of the situation and what's possible is as clear-eyed as is conceivable. Yeah, and I think that in the case of both letter writers, the good news is that they both have supportive partners. They both have partners who I think are
It seems, based on these letters, would be open to those sorts of conversations. It doesn't have to be that suddenly these women who wrote us these letters are accusing their partners of being terrible because they didn't consider putting their careers aside. I remember one of the conversations I had with my husband when we were first talking about becoming parents.
I said, well, what last name should we give the kids? Because we have different last names. And my husband, who's very much a feminist, he was like, well, I was just thinking mine. Because, of course, why wouldn't he just think that? Because that's the way it's done. And I was like, well, I don't know about that. And the minute we began to have that conversation, it really did become then, okay, we are in this together. And we get to together solve this problem.
or answer this question.
And what I really advise to both of these women is like, it shouldn't just be you having this dilemma and writing to us and then we give you an answer and you make a decision about your own life. Obviously, you ultimately do make decisions about your own life. But within the context of a relationship, a question like this is actually answered by the two of you coming together and saying, what do we want to do? Do we want to do the long distance thing? Do we want to do one person...
makes a sacrifice now and the other one makes one later? Or do we find that the man isn't willing to make any sacrifices? And then that's some information you need to have, too. You know, think of these conversations as essentially information gathering. And then you get to make the decision. Right. Decisions take a long time to make in a couple. And again, I think I noted in To Go or Not to Go, this real attempt to kind of
control and anticipate everything. And the information from her partner would be really helpful to her in making a fully informed decision as opposed to one that just is kind of in the universe that she alone is occupying right now. Right. And before you got on the phone, we had also noted like, she's already like the job she's going to have after law school. And we're like, hey, honey, you know, just go to law school. Right. You know,
Leslie, it's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you for offering your insight and wisdom to these two letter writers and to me and Steve as well. Yeah, thank you. Oh, it's really been my pleasure. Thanks so much for inviting me. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye.
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Being the head of a movie studio is the only job I've ever wanted. Critics are celebrating Apple TV Plus' The Studio with its all-star cast, Seth Rogen, Catherine O'Hara, Ike Barinholtz, and Catherine Han. I love movies, but now I have this fear that my job is to ruin them. The Hollywood Reporter calls it the best new comedy of 2025. Oh, yeah!
And Mashable calls it full-on comedy gold. It's been getting some very encouraging feedback. You'll make a great studio head. The Studio, now streaming on Apple TV+. Okay, you know, I think that we came up with some pretty productive and constructive advice for these two women. And one thing I do want to say to Torn Between Two Loves, some of these letters, as you know, they come in and by the time the episode is broadcast, it might be months. And
If you are listening to us from a South American beach, you know that it's also never too late, likewise, to go or not to go. If you're in law school right now or you're not in law school right now because, you know, you made that other decision, it's never too late.
Every day we're making a new decision about ourselves and we can always turn to our partner and say, I want to talk about this or I want to revise this or I want to amend this or I'm feeling like I'm making a sacrifice now and I want you to do that later. And how do you feel about that? And I don't want to be alone in making this big, complicated decision. Yeah. So it's not like all or nothing. If you've made one decision by the time you hear this, I just want you to take heart and
that what all of us have said today is that career and love do not belong on opposite sides of a fence. Really think about all of those things in a basket. That basket is called life. The basket of life. Well, I want to give a little bit of a hopeful note and then also maybe a little bit of a warning because as I was reading these letters, I kept thinking of a particular little passage from literature that was kind of haunting me.
The happy note or hopeful note is, you know, we went through this. Erin and I went through this. We lived together the summer before she decided to move across the country to go to a big fancy MFA program, very good one that she'd gotten into. It's like she had to do it. She had to do it to be the person that she wanted to be. But we were essentially sort of at the beginning of getting serious about one another. And there was a lot of uncertainty about what it would mean. It wasn't even clear that we would be continuing the relationship.
But she did it. She made the call and she said, I need to do this for me. And this is especially important, I think, for to go or not to go. She said, I'm taking charge of my life and this is what I need to do in this moment. And it was difficult and inconvenient and unpleasant. And there were lots of we missed each other and were lonely and lots of miscommunication, so forth. But I think it's the reason that we got married and that we've been happy in our marriage because she needed to go and lead her own life. And I needed to see that that was who she was. And
That's a hopeful way of saying, look, you can make this decision. And even if it's a long distance relationship that in some ways imperils that day to day and the excitement of developing, you're also doing a lot of work and in many ways having to communicate more when you're in that circumstance because you don't have physical proximity.
But I also want to exhort you guys to make the initial decision to start discussing this with your partner as soon as you hear this, and even hopefully before. And I want to do that because as...
To Go or Not to Go was talking about describing her marriage as making her feel like she was withering, and then she describes her new life as like all these possibilities opening up. I just kept thinking of this passage from The Bell Jar, Sylvia Plath's wonderful novel, in which she's essentially setting out the inevitability of having to face this decision about what paths they're going to take.
And the way in which putting in opposition all those possibilities, putting them on different sides of the fence, in a sense cripples you and you lose the chance to make any good decision if you wait too long. So here's what she says. I saw my life branching out before me like a green fig tree. From the tip of every branch, like a fat purple fig, a wonderful future beckoned and winked.
One fig was a husband and a happy home and children, and another fig was a famous poet, and another fig was a brilliant professor, and another fig was Europe and Africa and South America, and another fig was Constantine and Socrates and Attila and a pack of other lovers with queer names and offbeat
professions, and another fig was an Olympic lady crew champion. And beyond and above these figs were many more figs I couldn't quite make out. I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. That is so good, and
I think we all relate to that at certain junctures of our lives, but part of living is reaching for the fig. Right, and you can negotiate about the terms, but for both of these women, I think they need to know that they can do that, and it needn't be the enemy of...
developing an exciting relationship. Yeah, we wish you luck. We sure do. Dear Sugar Radio is produced by WBUR in Boston. We're produced and edited by Amory Severson. We're recording at Talkback Sound and Visual in Portland, Oregon, my hometown. Josh Millman is our engineer. Our theme music is by the Portland band Wonderly. Vocals are by Liz Weiss. Subscribe to Dear Sugar Radio on iTunes or your favorite podcast app and
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