Mr. Smith Goes to Washington
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Josh, thanks for letting me lure you into the studio. I'm excited. Thanks for having me. I was thinking about how it's your birthday coming up. Oh, no. And for once, we're not going to get to spend it together. That's true. We generally do. Yeah, but you're going to be in London. I will indeed. Well, I was thinking about one of my favorite stories that you've told, which is the season six premiere of The West Wing. Sure. When you all went to Camp David.

in the show. And you had Marine One. And on the side of it, they made a typo. Untied. States of America. Untied States of America. And so I thought...

in honor of your birthday. I made this last night. Oh, oh, God, you're good. Oh, it's so good. I love it. Will you describe it? Yeah. Is it going to be a piece of new merch? It's a new t-shirt. It's not available only to me. I won't have the only one. All right, I'm going to measure my excitement. Well, I'm seeing the front and the back. Yeah, the front is our pin, which actually looks amazing on a shirt. This is very exciting. Of course, what's next? Flentil A Veritas. It looks fantastic. It's

And on the back, "Untied States of America." Brilliant! We're gonna offer it in a couple of different colorways. One, just a stark black and white, the way it appears on Marine One, black with white type. But then, I also thought... Oh, my God, that's such a good idea. ...in honor of another moment from this episode that I love, which is when you are running through the woods...

and you rolled up your sleeves against Alex Graves' wishes to show your massive guns on screen in that Carnegie Mellon sort of like athletic shirt. We're also going to do a tri-blend black, sort of like the shirt you're wearing in that episode, so that people who get the shirt can roll up their sleeves and show off their biceps. Yes, maybe we can all show up at Alex Graves' house. So this is going to be a new piece of merch that's going to come out, and we're going to have all of our stuff

for sale at thewestwingweekly.com slash merch. But check out the new Untied States of America t-shirt

in two different ways. And then there's going to be a premium version because you know how whenever the president is on Marine One, he's got the cool windbreaker? Oh yeah, exactly. We're also going to do this as a windbreaker. Are we really? We can do that? We're going to do a black windbreaker. Same thing, the Westman Weekly Seal on the front, Untied States of America on the back. Can't wait to get one. And

And I could just see people all across the country putting it on as Martin Sheen would put it on over his head. Amazing. Oh my God, this is fantastic. And so many people are going to be approached and asked, you know, there's a typo on the back of your shirt. Oh, exactly. It'll just be endless. And that's how you know they are the enemy. They're not in the club. Anybody who points at it, maybe enemy is strong. Yeah.

I want to give a shout out to Chuck Gibbons who sent me an image on Instagram that I think is relevant for anybody who gets this shirt. It's a tweet from Dropped Mike. It says, interviewer, quote, can I get your references? Me, probably not. No one else does. Oh, that's good. That's really good.

I'm also excited at the prospect of, for the next four years, wearing something that says "Untied States of America." I didn't want to get too dark, but this might be a good reflection of how people are feeling at the moment. And then, lastly, in my small contribution to the overall campaign, Josh Molina is Nice.

I'm going to donate proceeds of this piece of merch to the American Red Cross. Wow. That is awesome. Oh, what a gift. Oh, I'm excited. If you want to support the American Red Cross, who's been doing amazing work here in LA as the wildfires have been just... I'm giving on Monday before I fly to London. Ravaging stuff. And yeah, Josh, if people want to join the Josh Molina is nice...

blood donation team, do they give blood or platelets or both? It all counts if you give through the American Red Cross and you join our team through the app. Of course, I'm also just here to generally encourage giving blood, whether you do it through the Red Cross or not. But if you do through the Red Cross, please join our team. Yeah. And if you get the Untied States of America shirt, that's another way you'll be supporting the Red Cross. Yay. I'm going to wear it to platelet donation, not Monday. Yeah.

But as soon as it's available and I can donate again.

And if you have no idea what we're talking about, it might be time to visit or revisit our episode on Season 6, Episode 1, NSF Thurmont. Right. Very good. Not suitable for work, Thurmont. You'll see. That's a joke you made on that episode as well. Of course I did. What do you think? I got a new joke for this? There's a picture of the untied States of America that Josh took before the art department went and fixed it on Marine One.

One of the great photos of all time from the West Wing. By the way, I also, since you mentioned my guns, I occasionally I search my name on Reddit and Reddit is where you get the real honest people who really tell you what they think of you. And there's always something horrible. This comes to us from Cavewoman22. She says, Josh Molina has always had a face made for radio and a body made for late night cinemas. Yeah.

The sad part is I read that and I'm like, oh, it's just saying I'm ugly. But oh, net gain. I was like, for me, that's a rave for Reddit. Amazing. So go to thewestwingweekly.com slash merch to get your Untied States of America shirt or windbreaker. And now, on to the episode.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with AutoQuote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

You're listening to the final chapter of the West Wing Weekly Political Film Fest. Oh, no. I'm Rishi K. Sherway. And I'm Joshua Molina. I'm a little verklempt. Yeah. It has been so much fun. So much fun to talk to each other. So much fun to hear and read what...

People thought of the films, but they thought of what we thought of the films. The whole thing has been fun. It's been a nice reunion. Yes. Now I get to live in the dread of the election results. Yes, right. Exactly. But, you know, good news or bad news, somehow we'll be back at some point with something else. We just have to wait until you have an idea. I mean us. We have an idea.

I will say that doing this political film fest has given me a little bit of comfort, even if the election result goes horribly, God forbid, the wrong way. Hasfashalom, we say. Hasfashalom, if the worst case scenario happens. Yeah. It feels like this country has been through terrible things before. Art has been made about those times and in reaction to those times. And we can now look back and say,

see how prescient they were, see how contemporary they feel, because so much of what feels

acutely horrible about right now is actually some version of a thing that we have already survived. Well said. What are we watching today, Josh, for our final film? We're bringing it home with the classic Frank Capra joint, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It's a 1939 film. It was written by Sidney Buckman based on Louis R. Foster's unpublished story, The Gentleman from Montana. Publish it, people. Put it out.

I'll give you a little synopsis. Oh, yeah, please do. Here it is. Last synopsis of the season. Mr. Smith goes to Washington when a senator from an unnamed state, although, as you said, based on a story from Montana, when a senator from an unnamed state passes away and the governor has to appoint a successor. Having been elected himself through the power and machinations of James Taylor, and by the way, if James Taylor tells you you've got a friend, don't believe him. ♪

The governor's choice is a political lackey dictated to him. But instead, he listens to his kids and appoints Jefferson Smith, an actual Boy Scout. Well, not actual because the Boy Scouts wouldn't allow the use of their name. The leader of the Boy Rangers.

Mr. Smith arrives in Washington and is led astray at first by his clever and jaded secretary, Klercia Saunders, played by Jean Arthur. She opens his eyes to the corruption of the system, but his rampant optimism in the institutions of American politics and his deeply held ideals win her over. And together they stage a fight against a shady, self-serving bill put together by James Taylor and the senior senator, Joseph Payne, played by Claude Rains.

And in the end, Mr. Smith's willingness to fight for a lost cause the way that the once honorable Senator Payne used to do causes Payne pain and he relents, giving Smith and Saunders their victory. Very nicely done. You still got it, baby. Beautiful. Who knew that the Frank Capra family and everyone associated with the movie would be relieved someday that the Boy Scouts did not allow their name to be used specifically.

This is the second movie in a row we've got some Boy Scout styles, though, because Ben Kingsley and Dave was also a Boy Scout. That's right. Well said. Also, I think when I picked this for our final film, I said, I'm not even sure if I've ever seen it. At the moment it started, I was like, of course I've seen this movie. I just don't remember it, much like the rest of my life. But it was good fun to rewatch. Yeah. What did you think?

First of all, I thought, as I have with many of these films, that there's connective tissue and DNA to Aaron and his conception and ultimate creation of the West Wing. This is, I think, among the many ingredients that

in the Aaron intellectual landscape that probably helped form the West Wing. You know, just even its basic premise of Washington as seen through the sort of naive wide eyes of a newcomer, just in the broadest strokes, that's what Aaron likes to do and has done so successfully and so effectively multiple times. Yeah, were there specific ingredients or moments in the movie that made you think of the West Wing? That's a good question, and that's the kind of thing a good co-host would have a conversation

cogent, trenchant answer to? Because I'm sure the answer is yes. What they are, not so sure. Maybe on our journey, we'll stumble upon them. Even honestly, though, even I would say his awe at seeing the Capitol Dome

And his reaction to seeing the Washington Monument. And also the brilliant casting of Jimmy Stewart, who can do an aw-gee, gee-whiz kind of thing and not seem like he's playing a cliché, but seem like the prototype of authentic and genuine, like, awe. I don't think I've ever been so thrilled in my whole life. And that Lincoln Memorial...

I thought many times as I watched it, in a lesser actor's hands, this movie would grate on me in a way it wouldn't inspire me and sort of give me tingles the way it does. But just the way he feels about DC and its icons and the Lincoln Memorial and his love of the words and oratory of political discourse is just so Aaron and so West Wing. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Frank Capra, I think, felt the same way himself personally. He has an autobiography and in it he talks about meeting President Roosevelt. And he said, "I was standing not more than 15 feet from Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President of the United States of America. Foreign-born Americans more fully appreciate the awesome aura of that title." Because Frank Capra was born in Italy.

That's great. Any other specific things? Wingy thingies? Yeah, there was one wingy thingy that I felt at the beginning of the movie, which was that Jean Arthur, well, let me just first come out and say, I think that Jean Arthur is the real hero. Her character, Clarissa Saunders, Saunders is the real hero of this movie. Okay. Tell me why. Because without her, none of this stuff happens. True. Oh, yes, Miss Saunders. Now tell me, what's the staring divinity?

Committee of the majority party leaders. They decide when a bill is important enough to be moved up toward the head of the list. Well, this is. Pardon me. This is. Where are we now? We're over in the House. Oh, yeah. House. More amendments, more changes, and the bill goes back to the Senate. The Senate doesn't like what the House did to the bill. They make more changes. The House doesn't like those changes. Stymie. So?

So they appoint men from each house to go into a huddle called a conference, and they battle it out. She's the one who actually knows how to get things done. She is the one who points him in, at first, the wrong direction, but then in the right direction. She knows how to actually operate within the Senate. She knows where all the power lies. She knows everything, and she's not so jaded that...

that she can't also become an idealist by the end as well. I loved her. I thought she was great. It's a great performance. Very, very winning performance. Yeah. I also thought there was something slightly sophisticated about their flirtation. First, there's the standard sort of rom-com-y thing where Smith first sees Susan Payne and they just have a moment, like literally, like they make eye contact and you're like, oh God, he's smitten by her. Yeah. And...

And other rom-coms might go in the direction where they end up together. And you're supposed to be expected to believe that it happens like a lightning bolt like that. But then later, we see Saunders and Smith sort of banter, and there's something more significant and real and real flirtation and appreciation of each other's minds that ultimately leads to feeling like, oh, these two have a real connection that I think is very sophisticated for a 1930s story.

like comedy. That's true. I didn't think about it then, but Sunder's telling Smith...

that she loves him via a written note is also very West Wing. That's true. That is true. But I actually thought when she first appeared on screen that she was kind of a version of Mandy. Huh. I thought that in some ways Mandy was maybe even modeled after, if not Saunders' character herself, an archetype that she helped represent. When full.

If Foley died, why didn't I clear out? How many times have you heard me say I'm fed up with politics and I... No, I'd let him talk me into staying. Secretary to a leader of little squirts.

Why? Because I need the job and a new suit of clothes. Yeah, that's good. That didn't occur to me at the time, but I think that is valid. So Thomas Mitchell is also in this movie. He plays reporter Diz Moore. And I was like, oh, here's a guy who's in the Walter Matthau slash Albert Brooks role of the smart reporter in love with the smart woman who instead prefers the pretty boy. Yeah.

That's true. That's an archetype right there. And I thought he was great. I love that character and I love his performance as well, just as much as I love Walter Matthau in Facing the Crowd. Yeah, it's a very strong, very good cast in this movie. It's odd that they didn't name a state. Like, it leads to a lot of clunky lines like...

I present the credentials of Honorable Jefferson Smith, who has just been appointed senator by the governor of my state. My state? Why don't you say one? Why didn't they go with Montana? It's funny. I don't know what was so hot a topic or they were afraid of being sued by the state of Montana. Well, actually, politically, this movie was seen as really controversial when it came out.

And why is that? It doesn't feel so prickly, but maybe that's to my modern sensibility. Yeah, I think it might be. Didn't people know that politics was thoroughly corrupt back then? Maybe they did, but they certainly didn't want the word to get out.

We don't need a movie about it. People called the movie un-American. Joseph Kennedy, who was the ambassador to Great Britain at the time, tried to convince them to not release the film because he thought it was so damaging to the image of the United States. Former bootlegger Joe Kennedy had trouble with the...

Implication that politics is corrupt. And other studios were actually so nervous about how DC would react to the film that they offered Columbia $2 million to not release it.

I would have not released it for a million. They should have come to me. Well, it cost one and a half. So as you're... No, but I would have not released it having not made it. Oh, that's why I could offer them such a good price. Such a plum deal. Yeah. Yeah, they offered the money not to release it because, and I think this is really wonderfully ironic, there was a bill in the Senate that was under consideration that could potentially be harmful to movie studios. Ah, there you go.

So it's suggesting that DC politicians might, in an act of revenge, do something corrupt. Yeah. So thereby confirming the premise of the movie. And much like Network, the press were also upset by the depiction of reporters as maybe, I guess, as a bunch of drunks. Yes. Yes.

Fair enough. Although they're the ones who really help peel things back for Jeff Smith. That is true. They sit him down in a kind of like a freshman who's coming to high school and the seniors are like, all right, look, here's the lay of the land. What do you know about laws or making laws or what the people need? I don't pretend enough. And what are you doing in the Senate? What's he doing? Why, honorary appointments.

When the country needs men up there who know and have courage as it never did before, he's just gonna decorate a chair and get himself on it. Oh, but he'll vote, sure, just like his colleague tells him to. Yes, sir, like a Christmas tiger, he'll nod his head and vote yes. You're not a senator. You're an honorary stooge. You ought to be shown up. Have a drink, Senator? It'll taste better than the truth.

By the way, the film would, perhaps ironically, ultimately be chosen by the Library of Congress as one of the first 25 films for preservation and dubbed by them one of the greatest films of all time. Yeah. I think that eventually, once it came out and it was such a hit, people could see that the reason why people liked it was because of the way it actually upheld these American ideals. Sure.

Sure.

Yeah, absolutely. That's right. There is no courage without fear or something like that. Well, almost said. Boom-ish.

Because in my memory, this movie is just, you know, a whole lot of gee whiz, by golly, Jimmy Stewart. It's just a montage of Jimmy Stewart being awed by historical monuments in DC and getting to do the right thing. I forgot about how dark it is. Yeah. I mean, there's a scene where there's a truck that runs kids off the road. Yeah.

I know. I watched the, I'm in London now, my daughter, she watched the second half of the movie with me. And she was like, what? They just killed kids. I was like, yeah, I think they did. They just ran over a bunch of children. Yeah, we see some kind of thug come in and just like open-handed slap a young boy in the printing press of the boy ranger's office. Yeah. Yeah.

Rather brutal, tonally. Bit of a shift from much of the movie. Yeah, so I really forgot about that part of it, but I do think that's what makes it work, is you have to see how dark the James Taylor machine really is, and how deeply off the path of honor Senator Payne has gone. How much he's sort of bought into the graft of this

damn damn very nice this damn damn is causing pain pain pizza pizza also the senator's attempted suicide is rather dark yeah moment of the film yeah it's like oh there's that in this movie that's maybe kind of one of the darkest things about the film is that actually politically through the sort of institutions jefferson smith loses i mean he would have lost the

The only thing that actually saves the day is this sudden pang of conscience that is so painful that, yeah, it makes him pull a gun on himself. Yeah. I'm not fit to be a senator! I'm not fit to live! Expel me!

Senator Payne is the one who changes the course of history. But for all of the idealism of the movie and your belief in the American way, it's not actually the political process that makes the right thing happen.

True. I guess maybe the idealistic thing is the idea that there are honorable people in D.C. Yeah, and people who will fight to do the right thing, which is nice to be reminded of or fooled into believing. And even the ones who are deep in it can still, at times, connect back with the reason why they got into the idea of helping people in the first place. Right. Another thing about this movie that I felt was kind of Sorkin-like is...

Capra's use of a lot of the same actors. Yes. Not a lot of the same actors from the West Wing, mind you, but a lot of the same actors from his previous projects. But he had his own little troupe, including Gene Arthur and Jimmy Stewart. It was the second time they'd been co-stars. By the way, also, Edward Arnold as Jim Taylor, very good. But also, what is Jim Taylor? He's just like a political boss of some sort. He's

He's like one of those people I'm always trying to remember, like, what was Steve Bannon exactly? No, I think Jim Taylor is a businessman. I actually think it was kind of vaguely, the possibility was open that Jim Taylor is behind the murder of Jeff Smith's father. Mm.

This would be the one of the many things per episode that goes over my head that you notice. I mean, there was nothing actually said about it, but he represents the interest of big businesses. Influential money guy. Yeah. And he especially the mining industry and also the newspaper industry.

So he, I thought, might have some connection to Jimmy Stewart's character's father who was investigating corruption in the mining company. And then it is found shot in the back one day. I buy that theory. I don't know that Jim Taylor was part of that or anything, but in any case, he represents that sort of absolute power.

evil willingness by corporations to do anything to prevent the truth getting out about their shady practices. Right. So I thought of him as sort of like a William Randolph Hearst crossed with like an evil Rockefeller. I don't know. I like that. That works. It was sort of like a Donald Trump if he hadn't actually decided to run for office himself. If only.

I also thought it had a little connective tissue, this movie, to A Face in the Crowd, what with Jimmy Stewart's plan, or Smith's plan, rather, to raise the money for the boys' camp by having people send in very, very small amounts. It kind of, you know, years later in A Face in the Crowd, Lonesome Rhodes would do a fundraiser of his own that I referred to, I think, when we discussed it as the first crowdfunding for such a cause. But here we are at 39, and he's crowdfunding the boys' camp.

Another thing that connects those two is they both put an upper limit on how much you should send in. The boys pay it back by sending pennies, nickels, nothing more than a dime. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I like that idea. I told you before, now I can't look at things and see real reporters without thinking of you. And I had my own feelings about it, but my own feelings are now eclipsed by my memories of your feelings.

I'm delighted. With everything we do, that's my only ultimate hope. So we get an example of that as early as this movie, because the radio reporter who's in there occasionally, you know, doing a little DJ exposition for the Senate goings on, is H.V. Kaltenborn, an actual news reporter for CBS. Somehow I didn't realize that. You didn't recognize him? No.

I didn't. Normally I would pretend bluff, but I don't think you'd believe me if I said that. Oh, yeah. I recognize him.

Oh, back to the mighty Capra players. Beulah Bondi plays Jimmy Stewart's mom in this, and she also plays his mom in It's a Wonderful Life. Wow, that's interesting. And though it's his only Capra film, Beans Morocco, as Senator McPherson was great. Just kidding. Sorry, Grant Mitchell. I had a real It's a Wonderful Life deja vu moment when Auld Lang Syne starts playing.

The camera's close on Jimmy Smith's face and everybody's singing Old Lang Syne. Did you say Jimmy Smith's? Wow. Did I? I did. I did. I don't remember a close-up of Jimmy Smith's in this movie. That would be some real connective tissue to the West Wing because he was in that. Oh, man. Actually, when I watched this, I was like, when he got cast...

in the West Wing. I was like, how many hacky headlines were there called Mr. Smith goes to Washington? That's funny. And did you look it up? Oh, yeah, there were several. That's funny. Sorry, writers, that's first draft Rishi here way. He thinks of that immediately and dismisses it and comes up with something better. Try harder.

Anyway, in both of these movies, you know, the end of It's a Wonderful Life when Jim Bailey, I'm just like all characters are now named Jimmy. Jim Beam. Jimmy Smith. Jimmy Bailey. When George Bailey is in there. Good idea, Ernie. A toast to my big brother, George, the richest man in town. What? Yeah.

I guess that's an example of crowdfunding too, right? Yes. Just to jump all the way to the very end, what about the ending? The very ending of this movie was wild to me. Tell me why. Because it just ends. Yeah, it does. It's abrupt. It is so abrupt. He's like, we did it, we won, the end. Yeah, it's a little bit like they ran out of film. Why do you think? I mean, they were already over budget by a fair amount and...

many days past their production schedule. So yeah, maybe they're just like, well, that's all we got. It's like, let's call it folks. I mean, if I were to criticize a classic film that I loved, it

It could have been a little bit shorter. It's long. It's a long movie. It's long. I didn't find any parts of it unnecessary or draggy, though. No, I don't know what I mean. I'm talentless. I couldn't tell you what could have been cut. I just felt like, oh, it's a two-hour long movie. You're just like, I have other things to do. Yeah, exactly. The other thing I did think and wrote down was like, God, I'd take this movie over anything in the...

Marvel Universe any day. Yeah. Great movies get made today still, too, and real movies and like comedies or whatever, but it's just, this is more my style. Really? You think a bill about a dam in Montana has more gravitas than the international ramifications of power and how it must be used as set forth by the Sokovia Accords?

In the eight years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man, the number of known enhanced persons has grown exponentially. And during the same period, the number of potentially world-ending events has risen at a commensurate rate. He's saying it's our fault? I'm saying there may be a causality. Our very strength invites challenge. Challenge incites conflict. And conflict breeds catastrophe. Oversight.

I guess I don't even really know. Are you a big superhero fan? I read comics when I was a teenager avidly. I feel like I am a geek for sure about all that stuff. The Marvel universe is sort of built around the Avengers, which that wasn't really my thing. I was into the X-Men.

I did think some of the Marvel movies in the sort of early stages were quite good. Give me a few. Which are the good ones? Captain America Civil War is the best one. The most politically incisive superhero thing that I know of that I would wholeheartedly recommend is the Watchmen series. Oh, the Watchmen series. Did you see that?

And is that Damon Lindelof? Yeah. Yes. That was incredibly well done. Incredible. And really great. And either too short-lived or maybe it was just perfect enough to be what it was. Yeah, I think it was perfect as a sort of little miniseries, which was all that was intended. And it was a little jewel. Yeah, I thought it was great. Okay, sorry. Let's get back on track.

Do you know how much the movie cost to make? The movie cost one and a half million dollars. That's right, you said. Mm-hmm. Which in today's dollars is more than that. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I love the way that they frame Jimmy Stewart in all the Senate scenes. I thought, what a great way to think about this, to be like, this is your desk, and we're just going to happen to put you at the desk, that when we shoot it from this angle, you are right between sort of the corners. You get this little vertex of the two walls of the Senate with their, what would you call that bit? Yeah.

I'm still stuck on vertex. I'm trying to think. If I had to define vertex out loud, could I? And I couldn't. What is the definition? The vertex is where two angles connect. Okay, that's kind of in my mind. Triangle has three vertices. Doesn't it though? Yeah. Doesn't it?

And so there's this angle between the sort of crown molding on each wall. They come together right above Jamie Stewart, and it makes every one of those shots feel more dramatic and heightened and epic.

And I just thought it was a nice shot. I mean, they returned to it over and over again, and I thought it was great. I like how also all the kids in the movie are kind of like our gang kind of characters who are like a sort of more politically adept and knowledgeable than Mr. Smith originally. Like the kids of the governor who convince him to make him senator in the first place. And this sort of page in the Senate who tells him how things work. Find a Senate manual in here.

Anything else you want? Just snap for a page. Where's the majority leader? Majority leader? Right over there, Senator Agnew. I like all these smart, wisecracking kids talk. One of my favorite moments in the whole movie came in the end credits. They say, these are the governor's kids, and they list all the names, and one of the children's names is Baby Dumpling. I didn't notice that. Baby Dumpling.

And now we're going to take a quick break. And now back to the show.

This was supposed to be a sequel, actually, to Mr. Deeds Goes to Town. But they forgot to make the first movie. Oh. Yes. Gary Cooper was in a previous Frank Capra joint called Mr. Deeds Goes to Town. And this was originally going to be Mr. Deeds Goes to Washington. But then they cast it with Jimmy Stewart instead and made its own thing. But when I saw the title, I was like, what is up with Frank Capra's need to...

title things this way. It was because that was originally supposed to be a continuation of that story, I guess. Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, which also stars Jean Arthur. Oh, she's great. She is so good. I gotta do some further Jean Arthur watching. Yeah, this makes me want to go watch Mr. Deeds Goes to Town just for more Jean Arthur, Frank Capra collab. Yeah.

This movie was nominated for 11 Oscars, but it lost in 10 categories. Wow. The only Oscar that it won was for Best Original Story, which is no longer a category. Best Original Story? Yeah. Huh.

They used to have sort of three writing awards, but Best Original Story went away in 1956. Do you know who beat Jimmy Stewart? It was Robert Donut for Goodbye, Mr. Chips. Goodbye, Mr. Chips is a great movie. Very good movie. Is that how you pronounce Robert? I thought it was Donut. Yeah, that makes more sense. Yeah, Donut is how it's spelled, but it was...

It's a funnier name if it's Donut. You're just tempted to say Donut. I understand. I'm always tempted by Donuts. I loved the performance of Claude Rains. I love Claude Rains in everything that I've seen him in. Great actor. He's terrific. Guys,

Casablanca. I feel like you believe both the dignified side of him and the smooth political operative side of him. Yeah, he has probably the character-wise the most complex role to pull off, and he does a very, very good job. Although Gene Arthur does as well. Most people are just sort of are what they are, even including Jefferson Smith, but there's a little more dimensionality, if that's a word, to their characters. Yeah.

You mentioned the potential for Jefferson Smith to be grading that you ended up ultimately not feeling. Yeah, no, I thought it was lovely. And Jimmy Stewart brings a real genuineness to it. There was a line early on that I wrote down. Yeah, you'll have to get yourself out of low gear, Senator. I liked that line because...

Jimmy Stewart is just one of those low-gear actors, and he can take it into a higher gear, but his natural thrum is at a pretty low level without being boring. In fact, being the opposite, like you're drawn to him, and there's something about his vibe, even when the vibe around him is different, that I dig a lot. Huh. I actually did find him grating at times. I did find...

all the things that Jean Arthur found a little tiresome or just, you know, like she was ready to roll her eyes. Bugged you too. Yeah. Which I think maybe also endeared me further to Jean Arthur because thankfully there are characters here who see this in a more realistic context. It's not like the entire movie has this doe-eyed view of the world. You know, it doesn't share the view that Mr. Smith has. Oh, Rishi, you're such a Saunders. I'm a Miranda. Ha ha ha!

I think that he is set up a little bit to seem foolish. You know, the idealism swings too far at the beginning, as admirable as it is. Oh, another West Wing-y thing, and also connective tissue, too.

in the earlier film is his ability to recite speeches by Lincoln and Washington. Yes. Similar to Chairman Fred Hampton and his ability to recite Malcolm X speeches. Right, Malcolm X. Good catch. Also, this is the deep dive I did on West Wing. Is there anything, Stackhouse filibuster? Is there any connection to be made? I was like, filibuster? I know that's in the title of a West Wing episode. Yeah. The filibuster here is really incredibly dramatic and

and exciting back when a filibuster, I think, was a more rare thing. - Right, exactly. It's a little bit of a fresher moment. - I was surprised a little bit when he would go to moves like reading the Constitution and reading the Declaration of Independence without then using those texts to underscore the point that he was making. You know, he'd kind of have these chunks where he's like,

I'm going to talk about the virtues of what I'm standing up for. And now I'm going to take up just six hours of your time by reading nonsense. Yeah. Without making any point. And I know that the filibuster has this power of being able to delay things and delay things so far that the bill gets rendered moot because a deadline passes or something like that. Right. Or they're forced into recess, whatever. But-

But I guess I expected when he started to filibuster that he would use the entire time to deliver an impassioned argument about his bill and also sort of his defense and the truth of the political machine that was against him. All of these things that I think needed articulating, you know, and if he's going to actually defend

convince the hearts and minds of the fellow senators, who were apparently the only people who were really going to hear him because the word wasn't getting out to the larger audience, that he wasn't really doing that. He was just taking up airtime. Yeah, I had the thought that in the Aaron Sorkin version, the senator would make some very valid points based on the passages he was reading.

But it did make me think of the Stackhouse filibuster for sure. I kept thinking, will there be no moment of relief, you know, from a sympathetic senator who will let him ask a multi-part question so that he can have a sip of water? Yeah. Get up there with that lady that's up on top of this Capitol dome, that lady that stands for liberty. Take a look at this country through her eyes if you really want to see something.

I read that Jimmy Stewart drank sodium bicarbonate to make his voice sound more hoarse. Oh, fantastic. I wondered because I thought like, wow, that was good. I bought it. Yeah. Look at Jimmy Stewart goes method. I guess method would have been actually speaking for 25 hours before starting to shoot the scene.

I thought the combination of his voice and, you know, the sweat and his disheveled quality, I was like, yeah, the fatigue is setting in for him, much like for Josh Molina after watching two hours of a movie. Yeah, you should see me. I'm completely ragged and you should hear my voice. That's why I can't, I need a little break before we record the podcast. I can't go straight into it. I don't know, I just have to take a nap and rest my voice.

Another reason why you don't watch Marvel movies. That's true. Or really any movies. I mean, would you watch something like Killers of the Flower Moon? Yes. No, the truth is, and I feel this way for theater too, some of my favorite pieces of theater have been things that are multi-hours. It's just really, you know, Marvel movies to me feel long because I'm bored by the end. And, you know, the Lehman Trilogy, which is three hours plus on stage, I loved.

Nicholas Nickleby, which is two four-hour sections, saw it all in one day, could have watched it again. Angels in America, same. So yeah, I'm just like, if it's not going to be better, at least make it shorter. Which is great. I should start my own studio with that motto. That's funny. There's a graphic design joke that goes, can you make it good? No. Well, then can you make it big? Oh, that's good. That's very funny. I like that. Wait a minute. Tell me what I meant. I wrote, head

Head of Senate, who I guess is the vice president, right? The guy who's running the Senate. Cheap thrills. What does he do? Did someone do a gavel toss or something? I just wrote down cheap thrills and I forgot what he did. I didn't notice any cheap thrills, but the president of the Senate is played by the actor Harry Carey. But now I need to know. All right. Somebody who's willing to watch the film again or remembers. Yeah.

What was I talking about? Somebody did, obviously, some deft little piece of stage work that I dubbed a cheap thrill. Ah, balls. God, I'm terrible at this job. But that's not new, folks. That's not new.

I loved him in this movie, though. I loved his bemusement at Mr. Smith. I felt like he was kind of rooting for him in this way. He was like, "Oh, this guy, what's he up against?" You know, I could feel him siding with our man, even though he has to basically be impartial. Except in that one moment where it's like, who are you gonna recognize when both senators are trying to get his attention? The chair recognizes Senator Smith.

Yeah, he makes an impression with a minimum of screen time. And with a minimum of dialogue. He's mostly doing it just with his facial expressions, yeah. And that really cool thing that I noted and didn't write. Yeah, that thing that he did. But he's an actor from John Ford Westerns. Oh, yeah, he rode a horse in that one scene. That was the chief thrill. I almost forgot about the horse.

You mentioned the flirting between them early on. I liked the way they used her first name as a kind of indication of the progress they'd made in their personal relationship. Mm-hmm. The way he teases it out of her, and then she finally tells him that her first name is actually Clarissa. But then he just calls her Saunders anyway. Yeah, exactly. Very cute. Yeah. And then it's his mom who says... All ready, Clarissa? She called me Clarissa. Okay, Ma! Okay!

And then she calls his mom Ma, and I was like, well, you're jumping the gun. Yeah. Easy there, slugger. When Mr. Smith is going through all of the sites early on, and we have the kind of awe-inspiring montage of monuments. Monutage. They're shots of the Liberty Bell. Isn't he in D.C.?

Where did that bus go? I thought, I assumed it was the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia. Oh, I thought it was the Liberty Bell too. It's actually the less famous cousin of the Liberty Bell, Freedom Bell. Okay. That they keep, I'm guessing in DC and we're stupid and that makes more sense. Yeah. Liberty Bell, the most famous, Freedom Bell, the least famous, Kristen Bell in the middle.

It was interesting to hear the term ambulance chaser being used one so early and two in reference to a reporter and not a lawyer, which I think is how I hear the term. Yes. How it's come to be used these days. But that scene afterwards where Jimmy Stewart is just walking around punching reporters. Yeah.

was pretty wild and pretty far away from the Boy Scout image, I thought. It's like, for a guy who's so concerned with righteousness, you can't go around just punching guys. Yeah, no, I wrote that, yeah, that's true. That was a weird... Actually, I wasn't sure I wrote, physical assault is weird. Yeah.

I'm like, wait a second. Do I have to revise my opinion? Isn't this the kind of hero of the movie? Like, what is wrong with you? What are you doing? That's funny. But it was back in the day when everyone hit everyone. That was their love language. You have to view it in the time in which it was made. All the different shots of him in all of the different newspapers, doing all the different puzzles. Like, how long did they have him? And I would have actually loved to have seen them

you know, show us. Yeah, eyes. We need your eyes wider. Yeah. Now pick up this hatchet. Now. Yeah. Yeah. We brought a box of props, basically carrot topping this thing. And he just says yes to all of it. Like, yeah, okay. I can't imagine what I had in mind when I wrote down, quote, carrying buns for an infant with little flags in his hands, unquote.

There's got to be a typo, and I have no idea what I was talking about. Carrying buns? Carrying buns for an infant with little flags in his hands. I think there's nothing to be made of it. Oh, I think you... Okay, so there's a line. Let's unwrap this. There's a line from Saunders where she's talking to Diz, and she says... When I think of myself sitting around playing straight for that phony patriotic chatter, me carrying bibs for an infant with little flags in his fists...

I can't take it. I quit. I'm through. I think I liked that speech. And it was bibs. Although buns would have been funnier. Yeah. I'd be the guy in the writer's room like, how about buns? It's just a funny word.

Right, that's the scene too where I was like, "Okay, I'm glad that she gets it." Right, you were on board with her. You know, I think what's so frustrating sometimes when you watch a movie where you're like, "I have what I think is a legitimate opinion about what's going on on screen, and nobody in this story feels what I feel. Like, nobody is commenting on this." It's nice to hear somebody give voice to what you're thinking. Yeah, when everybody in the theater watching a horror movie is like, "Don't go in that door," and nobody's like, stopping anyone. Yeah, right.

I felt immediate relief from her. And I was like, okay, she's with it. Which made me think that her conversion was so much more exciting in terms of a character arc. You know, Jimmy Stewart, his character does have a character arc of kind of going from gee whiz, ah shucks, to learning the realities of the system and still fighting for them anyway. You know, still believing in his lost cause and

It's a kind of dark character arc, and I appreciate it, but I don't find it quite as fun and compelling as Saunders, where she comes in two-knowing and still manages to come around to find something to believe in. Yeah, well said. I also feel so bad for poor Diz. Oh, Diz, you're a wonderful egg.

I don't know, maybe if I saw you once with your hair combed or something. No, I don't think even that would do it. No point in combing my hair for nothing. Poor all of these guys. It is. Do you know the Michael Showalter movie, The Baxter? I don't think I've seen it. Did Michael Ian Black write it? Michael Ian Black is in it, but Michael Showalter wrote and directed it. The Baxter, the title of the movie comes from

term that they give to the rom-com trope of the guy who doesn't get the girl. Oh, that's funny. I didn't know that. Like in Sleepless in Seattle, it's Bill Pullman. Right. He's the Baxter. Right. Classic Baxter. And in the end, Bill Pullman's like, ah, go get your guy. You don't love me the same way, the way that you want to love someone. And he's just so pleasant about it. You know, he's just... Right. Like nobody in real life ever. Right. And...

Poor Diz, you know, he's getting his heart broken, sort of. I mean, I think he is in love with her. I think he's come to terms with the idea that she doesn't love him. But he's still, you know, down to reform. Actually, I will also say I really like the slight bit of character arc that we get to see in Diz as well. You know, when we finally get to see Mr. Smith in action and he goes to send out the report over the wire and then Saunders comes in.

Kick it out. Get on his side. Fight for him. Understand? You love this monkey, don't you? What do you think? Now listen, go to work. Lose that shoulder. Let's take this. This is the most titanic battle of modern times. A David without even a slingshot rises to do battle against the mighty Goliath

And this is again, why she's the hero. She's both shaping what he's doing. You know, she's Leo of this movie. She's shaping what he's doing on the Senate floor and then also shaping the spin of what it is. And this is down to do it, you know, David and Goliath, David without a slingshot. Yeah. And so I love that he's on his side, but at the same time, it also makes that character more tragic. Yeah, it does for sure. One of the reasons I think why I love broadcast news is because they really let you lay into the tragedy of

of that character, of that archetype, the smart guy who doesn't get the girl. And, you know, that was a archetype that I heavily identified with for the majority of my life. Until you got her.

The Baxter is a very charming, underappreciated movie. It's not a perfect movie, but I love that it introduced this term. Now you have a name for this kind of archetype. I love that. Makes me want to see it. Are there other Frank Capra movies that you know and like or love? I mean, I like It's a Wonderful Life. I've seen that many times as I enjoy Christmas Fair.

That's about it. I bet I've seen You Can't Take It With You. Don't remember it. Probably seen Mr. Deeds Go to Town. Don't remember it. When they made this movie, Frank Capra could basically do whatever he wanted. He was able to write his own ticket because he had won Best Director three times at the Oscars. His movies were all commercial successes.

So he was really able to call whatever shots he wanted, and this was the movie that he wanted to make. And apparently it was a movie that had been around, an idea that had been around, that had been trying to get made for a while. And were people avoiding it as a controversial hot potato topic, the corruption of American politics? I think so. I think people wanted to get it made and then studios would balk. But Columbia couldn't say no to Frank Capra. Hmm.

He was also kind of their only star at the time. Like, Jimmy Stewart wasn't even part of the Columbia system. They borrowed him from MGM. Oh, wow. We've kind of dropped the numbering system, our rating system. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, inconsistency is our watchword. Should we bring it back? How many Liberty Bells? How many Freedom Bells do you give this? I was going to ask you.

That's where I was going to. Really? Yeah, I really was. Fantastic. Yeah. What is your final analysis? I'd give this a strong, I'd give this eight Freedom Bells. I agree. I'll take eight Freedom Bells as well. A solid eight. And a very good movie. And next time somebody mentions it, I'm going to know that I've seen it before multiple times.

I was surprised by how much I liked it, really, because I thought that it might be some kind of like jingoistic thing that felt like, you know, like some of my least favorite moments from the West Wing or some of the stuff that I haven't liked in the past, just where it felt like nationalism for the sake of it without sort of being backed up by anything. Yeah.

I think that Frank Capra, even though he didn't really directly address his immigrant background in the text of any of his movies, I think that it has to have influenced. It's there, sure. Yeah. And I think that there's a thread here in that, in the kind of idealism. And I think that also touched me. It made me think a little bit about my parents and their journey to the United States and why my dad came here and why they stayed here.

And it was much more layered than a kind of just single, you know, Pledge of Allegiance kind of movie. 85-year-old movie. That's still relevant and resonates today. Yeah. It's impressive. Again, sadly, a lot of it, maybe Jimmy Stewart's naivete is hard to imagine in a contemporary person, but it's easier for me to imagine it.

if it were an immigrant coming to America for the first time. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, sadly, still relevant. Alas, yes. As now, as ever, as probably in the future,

American politics, an experiment that we're still tinkering with. Well said. What's old is new again. Well, that does it for the Westman Weekly Political Film Fest. That's it. Yeah. Here's hoping there's some good news. Not to assume how our audience leans, but let's hope there's some good news come November. Yeah. And for the folks who are listening to this, not on our Patreon, but in our regular feed, they will have been living with the results for several weeks at this point. How?

Haha, suckers. For five bucks, you could have heard this before. Either fabulous or terrible news. Or actually could be deadlocked. You never know. That's true, right? This could absolutely not be resolved yet. Yeah. You could be listening to this as the incoming ballistic missiles from a vibrant civil war takes place. Oh, God.

- God, I mean, I hope not. God forbid, khas v'shalom. Thanks for listening. Thanks as always to Zach McNeese and Margaret Miller for their help with the show. - Yeah, thanks Zach and Margaret for coming back along with us on this ride. And thanks to all of you for listening and coming back with us. It's been really, really fun to be in this again. - We love you. We appreciate you. It has been fun.

Can we still talk occasionally, you and I? Unless there are mics rolling, no. Fair enough. I respect that. You are an artist first. You don't exist unless there's a mic.

Maybe when the dust settles, we'll be back. But thank you so much. We hope you stay subscribed to the West Wing Weekly on whatever podcast platform you're using. And if you're a subscriber to our Patreon, please stick around because we do have some fun ideas planned for the future that we are not yet ready to reveal. That's right. We've got some tricks up our sleeves and we're both wearing short sleeves. So they're little tricks, largely...

attached to our shoulders. They're little buns holding American flags. Little buns holding. That's all, folks. The West Wing Weekly is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, artist-owned, listener-supported podcasts. For more information about it, you can go to radiotopia.fm. Okay. Okay. What's next? Truly, what is next? What is next? We're going to find out. I wonder. Something.

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