Top 10 Crypto x AI Predictions for 2025 | Bitwise's Matt Hougan & Ryan Rasmussen
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Walk in the bank place where we explore the twenty twenty five frontier today. On the show we got bit wise is twenty twenty five predictions. They got ten of them.

They are extremely bullish. Ed matt hogan and ran rostand son from bit wise coming on the show to give us there, I think, very well polished, very strong predictions. I enjoyed every single one of them.

So stop yourself in at that time. The sea in december, we're rapped up the year, really reflect very quickly on twenty twenty four, but then really get into what they think is coming on the pipe in twenty and twenty five. Uh, it's some pretty exciting stuff before we get into that content.

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So we got ten predictions today, some about Price, some about the etf, some about countries and what they're about to do with cyp to. And then toward the end, we've got actually a bonus prediction at what point in time will bitcoin surpass flip in gold? We got that number four, year two. So let's get right to episode with ryan in map before we do. We want to think the sponsors that made this possible, including are recommended exchange for twenty four that is crack in, go create account.

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And to help us close out the year, we've got mat hogan in the chief investment officer over at base wise, along with ran reston's in the head of research. A bit wise guys, welcome back onto bank list. We had you guys on together um in the etf part of this year feel like we might do like a little bit of a spotify rapped kind of reminiscing of the year that was. But man, I think this year really started off not great and is ending on one of the highest notes that cypher to has ever had. So really honored that you guys are able to join us and kind of rap this year and project forward, matt, right, and walk into banus .

picks for having us were excited to be back looking forward to IT.

So yeah, I do want to do that. Spotify rapped of cypher o twenty twenty four. If you guys don't mind, how would you summarize the year that was? And maybe just really set the tone here.

We're going through your guys is twenty twenty five predictions. You guys got ten of them, their banks. I love to every single one of these things is one of the Better early predictions that i've ever seen.

But I really want to set the stage before we get into the predictions. I want to again do the spotify rap of twenty twenty four. How would you guys as uh characterized twenty twenty four how how would you place IT as in in cyp do's brother legacy? How will you be remembered that with you?

Oh, man, I almost want to say it's the goat. It's pretty close to that. IT was a fantastic gear.

I think if you think back to where we were a year ago, there is no bitcoin etf ah. The idea of institutions moving in a mass was a long way coming. There was no a theory um etf.

Uh, the administration was extraordinary hostile to a crypto. In fact, a year ago, almost today, J B. Diamond testified before the house financial services committee that the government should shut down crypto.

That's where we were. And you fast forward today, we have, you know, crypto assets at or approaching all time hires. You have massive institutional buying.

You have a procyta administration coming in. You have a cyp to zar that understands crypt tou coming in. You have a chair of the sec coming in that used to work uh for the digital chAmber of commerce and the token project there. It's unbelievable. So i'd say, you know maybe not the goat, but pretty close to the goat from years.

Yeah, I think if you zoomed out and you're heading in to twenty twenty four, you might hope for one or two those things that might just mentioned. And it's kind of crazy sitting here in december to think about that. So many things have really happened.

Bitcoin etf, we had a bunch of progress in in congress in may or june this year. Theory etf, we've had a crazy amount of rally across every cyp to asset. We have tons of winds in the U.

S, twenty twenty four election. B, S, C, C. We have new positions in in D, C, that are headed by cypher. Enthusiastic mean any like two of those things would have made twenty twenty four a great year.

And i'm sure we're missing ten other things that happened over this past year that really contribute to how great every year was. So I never been more excited about the outlook for crp. Du.

I think maybe I will just some rise this year. I would definitely we flash, but in a very positive direction as in coming the twenty twenty three might have been like crypto OS worst year in terms of just sentiment on slight uh just regulatory oppression.

Uh, I mean, we had there once a point time there was mount oxx, but I went mount off is catastrophic, but the industry was so small if ex was also catastrophic and the industry was large at that point and we were attracting a large amount of attention. And that really defined twenty twenty two and twenty and twenty three and now twenty twenty four towards the end of twenty twenty four IT seems to be a complete reversal of that. So I think you kind of went from like industry lows in terms of sentiment and market Price action. Industry has is one of the biggest just gaps between where the year opened up and where the year finished.

Absolutely massive, absolutely massive. We are still facing Operation showed point two point o you can say crypto in polite circles. Um I don't think people have really grasp the degree of the switch that happened over the last year. I think wibbling h is A A good word to describe IT, although sort of a positive version of blesh .

to be sure that I for the predictions going to twenty twenty five and um I mean, we're feeling bullish finishing the year that was uh twenty 2， twenty twenty four. So let's dive into the predictions. As David said, there's ten of them and these are neatly bundled up in a report that you guys issue that I believe comes out with the airing of these episodes were going included in the showut today.

So uh, why don't we start with number one, you guys lead with press, which is like the thing that most, uh, you guess, make us wait for in these episodes, right? They don't leave with Price, but you leave with Price. So give us the Price point for bitcoin a theoria salona the mag three, uh, give us the historic what they did in twenty twenty four and then what's your prediction? For the Price on these big three assets in twenty twenty five.

I'm excited, excited to talk about this. This was a big debate at the team a bit wise. Where do we lay in for a Price targets for twenty twenty five in the big three, I think, is a really great way, great way to put IT here for, or the mac three is a really great way to put IT here for clipped to first, of course, you have to start with bitcoin in Price predictions like this ones. A little bit funky in the sense that are our estimate of two hundred thousand might be on the lower end of lot of the Price actions out there for next year.

But that's kind of for bitcoin, to be clear, not a theory .

in a bitcoin. It's two hundred .

thousand we love.

So K I would .

love to see two hundred, a thousand, a few um I think they are compliant, seem to be happy if I came out here and said that was going to happy. But but for bitcoin nonetheless, we expect they going to hit two hundred thousand next year, driven by a bunch of different continued adoption from institutions via growth of these E. T.

S. We think more and more corporations will start buying bit already seeing signs of corporations leaning into the mini microstrip gy model over the past few weeks in months. Now if governments start buying bitcoin, in everyone's talking about a strategic bitcoin reserve, we could give government start to buy bitcoin.

We could see that two hundred a thousand Price target become five hundred thousand or more pretty quickly. So we're really excited about what they going to do from here. Now you can take .

a theory um sure yeah I also feel like our theory an Price target is conservative. So yeah we're looking at a theory to trade up to uh seven thousand hours. Um I think IT may take an eye towards ten thousand dollars.

My view on east is IT has both actual momentum and sort of catch up momentum. H built into IT, which you're starting to see over the last few weeks. A we think the market is somewhat overlooked.

The strong progress we've seen in the eat ecosystem, particularly the growth in activity on the layer two networks, and it's going to come back to IT. We see that is almost a contrarian bet. So I don't know a bitcoin or theory um is more sort of understated in terms of where we think these Prices are going.

but I feel pretty fired two hundred seven thousand dollar eth, uh hundred and fifty dollar salona. This is a doubling of all three. All three you guys are protesting is a doubling.

And the consumers of this report, the audience of this report, which maybe we should touch on a little bit, is going to be cyp to outsiders. Mostly you guys are reaching out like doing god's work, trying to bring the crypto investors in to crypto. And I think the cypher people are looking at these numbers, like those are rocky numbers.

You've got to pump those numbers up. But for outsiders, they're thinking a doubling in a year because they're not used for numbers to double so quickly. And so I I think what you guys are the strategy here is like let's let's give the highest number that we are like hundred percent confident that, that we can hit and then there's more, more upside beyond that. You know, for the wink of encrypt or natives of what I think is going on here should be listened to.

get give us the real numbers. we.

Man, oh man, yeah. I ve I love the idea of our paper waking. I mean, look, I think that about right. I would say last year you bitcoin mistral, about forty thousand dollars, we only had a bitcoin Price target. We said I would get to eighty, and that turned out to be too pessimistic.

We'll see what IT ends the year, but certainly above eighty, I think you know particularly to the first two Price targets. The thing about bitcoin, once IT gets above one hundred thousand hours, is where would IT stop? There is vastly more buying of bitcoin than there is new bitcoin produced at this moment.

Corporations alone, bat two hundred and fifty thousand bitcoin last year and IT only produces about one hundred and seventy thousand bitcoin a year. So there is more demand than supplied. That's before we get to eat after governments, it's been hitting Price bubbles at all time highs and one hundred thousand hours because those are levels where people will sell.

Long term holders sell. Once you get above a hundred, who knows where a long term holder will sell? Will they sell one fifty y? Would they sell at two hundred? Why I think he could easily get to fifty, I think, is ryan mentioned if there is a strategic bitcoin reserve, you're talking about five hundred thousand or bitcoin.

And for people who think that's crazy yet to remember, a few years ago, bitcoin was at three thousand dollars, right? And IT IT rip strait to sixty so you can have those kinds of returns. I feel something similar with east, and ten thousand dollars I did give east narrative turns around.

And people look at the sort of massive growth of transaction activity on things like this. So they look at what's going on at h at dark net and other layer tools. They get excited about this space and the growth.

I think you have a gravitational pull to ten thousand dollars. I don't know what ri ticks about that at ten thousand dollars. I imagine it'll be a lot of long term eth holders who would be willing to sell and that would be significant behavioral overhead.

But you know, once we get above new all time hires, there's almost this Price gap or this air gap until you get the next behavioral cell level. And for eat, that's ten thousand dollars. So I do think that is like a gravitation pull that we could see if we get a momentum above previous all time highs. And then good narrative, I could easily see IT running up to ten ten gram and then sitting there for a bit.

Yeah, I agree with with that. On that, I would just say a bit of a how I feel about a fear in this year is I felt kind of taking the spot of slang. A was til last year, vives in the sona community had never been lower in and of twenty twenty two coming in twenty twenty three.

And then the narrative turn matcher spoke about if the narrative turns for a theme, what could possibly happen. And I think we're already seen glimpses of that coming through over the past month or so. The rims performed really well since election.

And I think if the a theory the narrative for a theory continues to shift the way that has so far for the next month or two months and we see Price continue to gradually rise, I think to get some of that sona ec momentum that sona had last year for a serum in twenty twenty five. And I was not as big of an asset, so probably won't have the same amount of impact on Price as a narrative ship first on a day. But I think the theorem is really well set up for twenty twenty five.

What would you say are the inputs that are blowing into the sales of all of these cypher assets, bitcoin, santa in the whole entire industry? What's really the input driving, uh, the bullsh year that we think twenty, twenty five will be.

That's that's a really good question. I think there's a bunch catalase a potential catalist for next year that are lowing the sales forward for crypto, and there's a few potential head ones. You kind of have to weigh the pros cons list into me, and I sit back and look at where the markets had IT.

There are so many more crows of catalysts, potential headwinds. Some of those, I think, are going to be LED by institutional investments, corporation government's institutional investors. One anecdote that we had last year going to twenty twenty four was that majority of wealth managers in financial visors had no expectations that big twenty tf would start trading in twenty four more than ninety percent or something like that thought I wouldn't happen in twenty twenty four. And then two weeks in, we had big twenty T F. And then now the .

most successful etf launches of all time. So we d like why are they so wrong? Just I know that side point here, but like why are they so wrong about that?

It's it's anchoring bias. I think because people been talking about those etf approvals for year after year after year and they've been wrong and wrong and wrong and wrong. So you know, it's a little bit of the who cried wolf and I think that just a colored everyone's if you use and made them not as positive as they should have been.

okay. Well, I interpreted your flow, right, your argument. So the institutional investors arriving and you know, now they see IT, right? They have products that they can buy.

What else exactly? Now they see IT. They're still waiting. In some instances, you have these large wireless ses like the Morgan stanly miral linch as bank of amErica of the world.

This is majority of the wealth control in amErica by wealth managers. And they are still being held back by the different approvals and compliance requirements and investment committee and meetings and approvals that are happening at this large firms. The majority of matters actually haven't even bent unleased to these new products.

So we see a huge level of demand coming from those investors when they get access. And we believe that the doors will open in twenty and twenty five for majority of those money managers. So that be a lot of institutional capital.

Of course, if we get a study pic on reserve, we think that, that will just create this big coin arms race where governments all over the world are buying. And then there's a Better regulatory environment. Impossible to to not know that going into twenty twenty five, the regular environ for critical in the U.

S. Has never been Better. You've never had a Better set up for procris pto legislation for relaxing and some of the rules and some of the you know back of office or back channeling that was happening to restrict crp, dos growth.

That all is gone in a matter of weeks. Now I in jane. And so we think that the institutional adoption, the regulating escape, shifting the macro tail wins, right?

If we many interest rate cuts, if we see global stimulus, we see chinese stilus happening. That's more wind in the sales of cyp du assets. And then you have kind of cyp do specific things like bitcoins supply shock continuing from last year as having layer two scaling on a theory.

We're already seeing what's happening with the growth of base in the past few months. When is now then got leadership in the auto position by is continuing to attract more eyes and attention, uh, from the ilona community. And so you have these kind of network specific tail wins and then you have macro o tail winds and you have broader cyp to industry taye ends. Everything headed up in the right direction in opinion.

I get this visual of like a damn bursting right like IT really feels like that's what kind of happened when you guys use terms like strategic bitcoin reserve like that is so crazy. Can you imagine that the like large governments like the united states of america's stockpiling bitcoin, how crazy is that that we've enter in area where this is like indeed possible? Just a quick question on the etf flows.

So IT has seemed that the last a quarter or so a theoria, either E T flows have really been picking up. In fact, I looked at last week and IT looked like from a market cap adjusted perspective, either got more inflows than bitcoin actually on the week. And so I think that's a first.

But we started to see h inflows picking up. Does this help the the Price of eat? Is this kind of I know you you guys have always been bullish, ed, on either that the institutions would want IT, that there is a market for IT in this etf format.

We're starting to see that now. Is this the beginning of of something big? What do you see when you look at the etf flows?

Yeah absolutely the beginning of something big. And and we we talked about this when before the eth etf launched, I think I mentioned that I was like hoping there would be a delay. You know they would launch like a year after the bitcoin etf because traffic needed time to digest the bitcoin etf before they could move on to what's nacks and started thinking about what's neck.

You're starting to see that happen, right? People are coming around. The the the early adopters have moved into the bitcoin T S.

And now they're are expanding their knowledge in the rest of the cypher market in the same way that almost every cypher investor through time has entered in, some through eat, but many through bitcoin and then expanded IT on. And they all get their favorite asset. Many of them end up uh indeed with eat.

So we think it's a it's a small downpayment on what's to come from an etf flows. The e the etf have already been relatively successful in the scale of most etf they have over shattered by bitcoin. But I think in twenty twenty five, you going to see the flows are really excEllent, right? You're right that we've seen a little bit of a downer yet on that in the past few weeks.

The transitions nicely into prediction number two. So moving on to number two, uh, bitcoin etf will track more flows five then they did in twenty twenty four. And i'll just read a bit of a next year here when the us spot because he has launched in january twenty twenty four, T F, experts forecasts of the group to see five to fifteen billion of inflows in their first year.

They passed the higher end of that range within the first six months. So bullish since launching the records ending etf have gathered almost thirty two billion and inflows. We expect twenty, twenty five inflows to top that, so at least thirty two more billion dollars into the biton.

E, T, S. Is being predicted by bit wise, but thirty two is the floor, and then IT goes up from there. Matt, give us a some more color here, if you will. Look.

I think this one is a gimmick. I as you guys know, I come from an etf background. I would C E O etf 点 com， spent fifteen years in that industry.

I've watched five thousand five hundred etf launch in almost every single case. Year two is bigger than year one, and year three is bigger than year two. And their reasons for that, these etf need to be approved on multiple platforms.

Investors need to do their due diligence. We move a lot faster in the crypto world than traditional investors do in a the traditional world. This is A A great chart showing exactly this. Uh, comparing the inflows into the gold E T F versus what we've seen in bitcoin, they're two takeaway from this start. One, you can see that the inflows into bitcoin vastly out way the inflow into gold in the year one. But the more important story, the story don't see sort of told is watch how the gold inflows grow year after year after year, right? It's straight up into the right and accelerating in bed .

from year one to year two.

And here's the thing. A everyone was so excited in year one that they lost everyone like this is the fastest growing etf of all time. It's amazing it's pulling a billion days .

in .

the first outrageous. And the assumption was all the money that had been sitting on the sidelines way to come in had already come in. And you're going to see this ascent top, top where was just gona level off and you get a few hundred million dollars in.

But that's exactly not what happened. IT hasn't happened for any etf in the history of etf. I don't know why what happened for bitcoin.

We're going to see these etf approved on Morgan stanly, on ubs, on wells fargo. We're going to see sort of the regulatory overhanging the gray shadow removed from the etf. And I think thirty two billion doors is absolutely the floor, I wouldn't be surprised, was significantly higher than that.

And I don't think the market understands this because they assume that all the flows have happened. And now it's just a trick. It's exactly the opposite. The slope goes up, not down. And this this was our easiest prediction .

to make the vital etf launched during like a pretty dire time in the crypto industry. IT was kind of the light that brought us out of the whole um IT was the thing that really kind of kick started the first phase of of the board market. Uh and we all know what is the biggest marketer of bitcoin, bitcoin Price.

And when bitcoin Price breaks a hundred thousand dollars, all of the sun, it's not so scheming anymore. It's it's a little bit more than just terrorists and it's actually just the future of finance is a digital gold. And all of a sudden, I think public acceptance of bitcoin is coming back at year two, year two.

And so so if the number of this year was thirty one point seven billion, I give us mad, if you will. I don't know this a lot, but give us your your percentage odds of IT doubling that h sixty sixty four billion dollars. What's your four percentage that IT break sixty four billion dollars in two thousand twenty. And in this year.

I think IT would be close if you given me fifty billion dollars or up. I would say it's at least like an eighty percent chance if it'll actually get to sixty. I mean, that would be that would be great.

But you know I bullish on Price. You have you also have to combine this with our prediction that Price will go to two other gay, which means the number of biton has to acquire small. So I think it's it's at least you know IT should be Better than fifty percent odds that IT doubles.

That's what happens in etf. I keep seeing people expecting things to change in crypto u. They're like there's never gonna in all season.

It's only bit well. Guess what that happens every time and then we get N F, T or debt will guess what? They've come back.

There's no for your cycle will guess what? In etf land, its year two will be big of ten. Year one, I think it's gonna happen. Uh, i'm pretty, pretty confident about IT.

One of the effect you guys mentioned, one of the points of for these numbers, investors are latching up. Three percent is the new one percent and three percent is the new one percent. You're talking about assets under management.

Let's remember how unallocated traditional finance actually is to the asset class. They just got off zero what in the last like year two and some of them are still kind of on the re trying to play catch up. And now the the frontier is going to move away from them because three percent is the new one percent when IT comes to assets under management. So there's a lot of catch up to do here. That's the point you guys are making.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that includes people who you do have aloe. The bitcoin in etf already doubling down. I think um all these trends are working in our favor.

Let's move on to prediction. Number three, coin base will surpass Charles as the most valuable broken age in the world is stocked will top seven hundred dollars share ah so okay, a coin is currently trading at three hundred and forty dollars a share when I checked at this morning. And so you as third prediction is that is going to hit seven hundred, which is in line with hypo assets.

Let's just double the Prices. Uh seems kind of safe. Um talk about the significance of if coin base, i've never heard of this kind of option before. A coin base flipper ing flipper ing charle shop is the most valuable broke ridge in the world.

Talk what is Charles swap?

Yeah what is I don't even know, I don't know. Not a kind of Charles swap. Talk about about the significance of coin base flipping Charles swap and just like public mind chair, right you want take this one yeah .

yeah having to take this one. I mean, when you think about what coin basis business is, I think we all know because we probably use coin base in the number of different ways. It's much more than just a program.

You can use IT as a checking account and a lot of insistance where you can sillily earned four, five percent yield on on U S, D, C, on stable coins. They have a infrastructure business that spends everything from custody and staking to to wallet services. They have a substitution based model.

They have huge exposure to the stable coin ecosystem. So in some ways, it's kind of unfair to to compare them to try swap because they're very different businesses. What would you zoom out and you think about the fact that Charles swap is kind of the king of the trading world and incomes situation, equities then IT inds kind of starts to look really a impressive of coin base flips Charles shop.

Because here's this little industry of crypto that was born fifteen years ago that now all the sudden has a single company that's worth more than the behemoth Charles robes. So I think this flip ing is a really, really significant one for financial markets. I think very likely to happen.

And I and I and I can tell David things for being too barish here. But you know, i'm so excited about coin bases business model. They continue to be under valued by wall street.

Last year, one of our predictions was that their revenue of coin base would grow by more than one hundred percent in two thousand twenty four, but wall street had their year very revenue after twenty twenty three you've spoken about was a bad year for cyp deu. Wall street had assumed that comment. This revenue will only grow nine percent year over year.

So they just fundamentally misunderstand this business. They actually do view IT as a replicate of trop. But for the crime deal industry. And as we know, it's so much more than that.

So I think as wall street continues get surprised by the growth of my business, going business continues in future, ate every single corner of the cypher market and continues to a seek growth and benefit from the shifting regulatory environment. From this potential pro legislation on stable coins to these growing etf, most of which custody with coins that they start to benefit from all of those different types of tailwinds. I think coin base hit ten seven hundred is a slam dunk.

And I just looked like relative market caps wise like so Charles hub is hundred and fifty billion I believe does not currently make the top one hundred uh assets by size so that you like the top one hundred. The the the lowest on that is one hundred and sixty two billion. I'm sure Charles hob is in there from time to time.

So you're calling for a coin base to go higher. Then Charles jobs, twenty twenty five Price, which would place them, I don't know, hundred and fifty hundred and sixty billion or something like that. One of the top one hundred assets in the world.

That's what you're saying, I think go higher than that. I mean, if you if you look at this list ideas, sometimes look at that list of companies and ask yourself, what company do you think could be a trillion dollar company? Try to like asic motor, lis gonna trillion dog company, the national bank of australia is gonna a trillion.

or some of these are on the decline, aren't they?

Yeah, illinois tool works bigger than coin base. Going to be a try like those. They may be great companies, but coin base, for various reasons, including that I got through the regulatory window before competitors could build up, has this extraordinary position in the fastest growing, most exciting industry in the world are nearly like not quite a monopoly position, but something approaching that with multiple different business lines.

I think in a few years, you could be looking at this as a trillion of our company. I could think be talking about the mac eight. I think it's that scale of opportunity of coin base continues to execute well.

Is there something about like is there at some point where coin base would get into S M P five hundred? Is that a catalyst for things like IT starts being included in index in such?

That's exactly right. We we have a prediction about that uh, later on.

good. okay. Well.

i'm not running the .

opportunity as you should.

What's what's our next prediction day .

partition number four, twenty twenty five will be the year of the cypher IPO with at least five crypto unicorns going public in the united states. Now I don't think there's that many selection of possible companies that could go public. So where I think we're picking from a pretty small crop ear.

So we need to tell me that five crypto unicorns will go public. I'm pretty sure that you guys have some idea like which ones these are. Uh, so walk us through who these possible contenders are for this to the companies that can join the ranks of uh coin base h and like bitcoin miners as the only public companies that are coming out of the industry. Which ones should we be paying attention to this year?

Yeah I mean, I think they're quite a few actually, but we listed out five in the report. Uh, circle probably being the most obvious one. Circles have been trying to go public for a number of years and has a huge position in the stable coin market.

That is a market we're very optimistic on. On the year ahead. So we think circle could be one of those.

A figure is an interesting company that makes IT really extensive use of blockchain technology behind the scenes to do markets lending. Ah you almost don't know IT when you're using IT that it's blockchain based, uh but indeed IT is. And if you talk to them, they derive enormous cough savings from doing that.

But there are others we think crack in, encourage analysis. The reality is the variety of really high quality firms out there that are earning revenues and access of a hundred million dollars a year across exchange custody, trading at etra. And I think, you know a lot of those could be liable to go public in the year ahead.

The IPO window has been more or less closed and deeply closed for crypto for a while. So there are these firms are are really almost bigger than you would expect to go public, the arty way in excess of that. But there's a longer tail here. I think we could see you know as many as ten um but certainly five in the year to come.

Uh this is definitely because of a the new um regulatory apparatus is coming because of the new administration. And I cannot imagine that this prediction would be in here had comm secure the nomination for part which also means that there's like four years of going public demands that we have not expressed over the last four years that is now going to be brought forward into these four years, which makes me very excited because they were freezing eight years of companies that are wanted go public into the next four.

We we barely seen an crypt is a bunch of bit miners coin and when did coin base do? Is that like four .

years ago? And yeah I got .

through the window and this is important for couple different right now, there are a lot of traditional investors who don't believe clipt as a real industry because they're only one or two publicly travel companies. You also see wall street firms starting to build, uh, analysis and higher analysts to cover the space, which is improves the focus on IT and the quality of coverage in the space there. There are a number of not on effects that are positive for the industry to have more names in the public equity circle.

Yeah, I I really actually want to double tap on that. The second order consequences of having many public crypto companies in, I seem to be significant. And and I think maybe as we see one or two happen, if people maybe it's snowballs, but I think this does a lot for crypto legitimacy, for cyp to branding. Uh, once there sufficient supply of public crypto to companies, IT really just get hard to tarnish the name of crypto as like some in the political Operatives have done as just for like the dark web of the internet shadow super coder, that brand gets harder and harder to justify IT talks about about just taking order positive impacts of this math.

Yeah, I think you called out, uh those those are very real and I think they have a very long impact. I mentioned the analyst coverage being a big deal, the media coverage being a big deal. IT also recycles money back into the cypher of VC community, which then gets reinvested in the next slate of startups.

And you just get companies paying much more attention. I'll tell you that stripe sacques tion of bridge open up the eyes of other payment companies to whats going on in stable coin in a major way that did not get unnoticed. And nor would a billion dollar, you know, stable coin issue were coming to market or a firm that was using block chain to innovate on costs like figure come to market that really you know raises the profile for competing firms to look at this space.

Oh yeah, I wonder if some of the knock on effect sma acquisitions, even from existing publicly traded company, is like rather for some of our crypto startups and that have have made a big then going public. Maybe they're just acquired by publicly traded companies and that becomes a more legitimate path. Uh, in the week this as well.

I think you're going to see a lot of this. I particularly think you're going to see a lot of this once we see the first major acquisition and we see the stock rally on that fact, right? If strike had been publicly traded and acquired bridge and RAID, you can Better believe every other uh company like them would be there is A A snowball element to this. Yeah.

I was just going to highlight one more thing around around the knocking on effects of this. I mean, we spoke about if if companies go public venture capitalist, then have some profits, they can then cycle le back into the ecosystem. But if you look at what happened with coin days after they went public, and how many early employees of coin base then made some wealth, and we now have this like coin base mafia across trip, where theyve been gone and started all these different companies that are now growing into your very great products, fast, great products, getting a lot of attention, I think you start to see that happen across some of these these other company is once they go public is wealth.

So going public is where crypto touches traditional y the next prediction is where A I touches cripp. U, uh, prediction number five is tokens launched by AI agents will spearheading me coin mania even bigger than twenty twenty four. Now this is a prediction that has gotten me very excited that i'm currently very excited by the bank.

Ker is investing some of our time and energy contents fear into this sector is i'm very excited about this one. You guys are calling for an AI ancient spd meme coin. May maybe you could add a little bit more color to to this prediction, right? Why don't you take this one because i'm guessing no offense map but between you and rine that I think, ryan, I be a little deeper in the centers on this AI being point. So that's why i'm thrown don't go.

We'll get to IT will get to IT will compare for olio.

Ryan, let's go. Yeah, matt loves to laugh at a these A I in coins. Then I throw his way and and what my portfolio is doing any given day or or a week when i'm deep down these rabbit holes.

But this is an area to me that so fascinating. I mean, mean, coins in general, I get the excitement around that there's tons of pie. People are making a crazy amount of money.

It's hard not to see that. It's hard to ignore that when you see that happening. And so you get drawn, and i've been victim to that as well, going into the isola in coin rab hol trying to chase, uh chase chase the money.

But I think what's happening in this A I agent driven mean coin kind of narrative or meta that's boiling up is you have these two really interesting, really high growth and new disruptive technologies finding away where they together create value in a way that people probably wouldn't have thought of two, three, four years ago when you were talking about cyp to a few years ago, we wouldn't have been talking about A I agents launching cyp to coins. And we were talking about A I couple years ago, we wouldn't have been talking about A I agents launching tokens on block chains. But today we have a bunch of these different A I agents launching tokens on block chains.

Of course, a lot of that being triggered by people in the real world tweet or casting at these agents to launch tokens. But to me, IT represents a really, really interesting uh, conversion of technology that, particularly for the cypher culture, is really exciting. And it's hard to you are an enthusiastic about crypto to not be consumed by this.

I spent the week of thanksgiving like refreshing clinker on my phone and opening deck screener and like coin this wald over here and like me, you just doing, like I just found IT. So funk was honestly exhilarating and and I just think it's super interesting. And then you have things like a on right where you can now take the different technology layers that goes into all of this, right? You have A I agents, you have stable coins, you have block chains, you then have uh forecasts, right?

This decenter social media APP where you're using that kind of as the basically to trigger these token launches and you have wallets on your phone that makes you easy to trade in and out of them. You start to see this technology stack that I think near what happened in defy summer. But in the world that we're ready for today, which is, uh, low cost, high growth, decentralize social use while infrastructure stable, coins that are easy to access and to get in and out of, uh, quickly. And to me, IT just feels like this is a convergence of two super exciting technologies, is in a really strong narrative.

We are totally with you on the A I agent, uh, like bull case, like we're totally there, right? And it's it's a very crypt or native cyp t of frontier case right now as you guys because you guys talk to the suits too.

Do you have to sort of whisper this one? Like, are you allowed to talk about this to them? Or is that just for us? Is that just for the cypher native? Because this is frontier stuff and they you talk about mean coins, they don't necessarily see where AI agents can like moving enables. So is is this kind of a whisper type of you know thing or on the report is in the report. I'm i'm surprised you made IT honestly .

yeah i'm shouting IT from the rooftops myself. Uh, but I do think there is generally, especially these sightly bigger firms are generally always wanted to really deep cyp t to enthusiast that you go in. And when you're meeting in doing presentations, they start they're thinking about these things.

They're deep in the weeds of grip to. And so I think that resonate with one or two of them. And then they talk about IT work. They talk about IT at the water cooler and starts in future the minds.

And again, you see these massive amounts of money being made or you know for for a lack of A A Better, Better thing happening, right you see ah a capable to say this but the hock to a mean coin rug that that happens at last week uh and IT just IT inflates mainstream media in ways that hard to ignore. So I think if this becomes more popular, IT will peak the interest of uh of those kind of you know traditional investors. But they're not going to be investing client money in these, and I don't think they'll be investing in these for the most part.

Yeah I mean, I don't just start a new ones to that um which is yeah I really love this example because if you back up twelve months or twenty four months you had people talking about the intersection of cypher and A I and people like oh yeah crypto will be the native money of ai. And I think when the people we talk to hurt that, what they imagine was like an A I bot buying their airplane tickets using stable coins or something like that.

Um but this is an example of how you those two technologies really do overlap. You're seeing proof of concept in how I can grow. And even if ryans uh going to zero mean point portfolio isn't a great investment bet, the idea that the cypher ate of money and A I agents come together, you now have a proof of concept and we can talk to investors all day long about yet this is the proof concept is going to a thousand x in the future in all sorts of interesting ways. And you can see that works here. And that's where this story can be discussed with the suits.

So when my own bank was ryan, uh so that we totally uh agree and see the same writing on the wall on on this know me A I driven mania. I do want to put IT in in the AI impermanent an differentiated from the other manas that crypto has sponsored for IT, the two thousand and thirteen blogged chain fork and fair launch. Armani, the first ever bull market, followed by the ico, many followed by device somewhere follow by nfs.

All of those were insular technologies that we made ourselves eternally to cyp to A I is the first, if this if this spot market is born. A is the first time that two separate front tier technologies are coming together to make something new. And that's different.

That's a little bit more legitimizing because it's these are like A I is already impacting people's lives. People can understand that. People can relate to IT.

People are using IT with ChatGPT, and now it's also infiltrating cyp du. And so it's different that it's an external technology coming in and creating something new with cypher. And so the optimistic cases, that difference does put dividends but does put wind behind the legitimacy of this particular mania.

Even the romania is, sometimes people resist them and they find them distasteful. You know, IT is a bubble. Nonetheless, i'd do think there is something a little bit .

more real about to you. We two manias, right? And they both get to smash into each other like two massive hype cycles smashing into each other in twenty twenty five. It's great .

i'm here for you guys.

but that is predictions. One through five we got six, three, ten. Later they were going to come up.

They got number of countries holding bitcoin, uh, coin base, entering the S N. P, the department of labor and what is going to do to our bags. So i'm going to get your guys of predictions on all of this and more.

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The number of countries holding bitcoin will double. I think it's no surprise that people know the united states, U. K.

China, elsevier, the these countries all hold bitcoin. Nine countries hold bitcoin in total. And learning this from your report, thanks very much.

You guys are calling for a doubling um maybe could put the wife behind this one why are countries ready for bitcoin? What makes twenty twenty five the year in which there is going to be a doubling in, uh, crypto owning companies? Excuse countries. Countries matter when you take this one yeah I mean.

the short answer to that is because the U. S. Said that might and if the U. S. Says IT might, you might as well do IT before them, right? We're already hearing uh, that there are handful of countries that are moving forward on their own bitcoin strategic reserves.

If you're a smaller nation and you're looking at, you know the america, the largest economy in the world, talking about buying a million big coin and there maybe a year thirty, forty, fifty percent chance of that taking place, why wouldn't you go ahead and buy your own bitcoin? And this is really as simple as that. There are other elements to IT.

That, of course, matter. right? There is the breakdown of dollar hegemony. There is concerns about the seizures of central bank assets post the russia seizures. There are the brick nations, which are looking for ways to buy real world assets without using the dollar. Maybe they want to use in the a political alternative.

So there are these these longer term forces, which have been in place for the past few years that that we're going to eventually get us to the point where bitcoin is held by most countries around the world. But the a massive accelerate has to be the U. S.

Election and the talk about the U. S. quarrying. Bitcoin for a strategic bitcoin reserve. I just don't see how other countries don't try to front run this. And I think you know our prediction of a doubling maybe below, they could be hard in that.

That's crazy. Let's just read off because a lot of people like like I you might not be familiar with the names of the countries on this list right now. The U.

S. Has coin. The U. K. Is bitcoin. Finland, button a, ukraine, georgia, china, venezuela, salvor.

And you like some them are small. If finland has ninety big coin, right where the U. S. Almost has two hundred and thousand. So you know, this definitely very is notably someone is not on this list.

Germany humbling.

The bag have been. Germany.

they the g bin. They been yeah.

But it's more in this area era of geopolitics. This plays out exactly like honestly, big winners you sort of predicted. I mean, so if we're looking here, the united states hundred ninety eight k china has one hundred ninety thousand.

Do you think the U. S, it's geopolitical rival to china, wants to have a less bitcoin or more bitcoin than china? And how about china?

Do you think they want to like just keep that bitcoin just in case, just to have around the same amount as the U. S. Like this is just a basic space race. You kind of dimensions .

is really funy. The united states in china has one hundred ninety thousand and I has one hundred ninety thousand yeah, in both the primary .

geopolitical rivals right now. I guess one one bit of push back let's have on this is let's talk about how these countries have acquired them mostly through seizure, right? That's how how did the U.

S. Get two thousand thousand becomin IT didn't buy these bitcoin IT like took them from different seizure silk grow this kind of thing. And so is this really like permanent? Do you actually think they're going to hold IT? Is this um yeah how sustainable is this?

That's a really good point, right? And if you look at this, at this visual here, and you look at the nine countries majority, these countries have acquired this big coin through seizing IT, right through some kind of law enforcing government or number of law enforcement actions where they have seizes bitcoin for people who acquired IT maliciously. And you can you shouldn't hide their on that fact.

It's very true with the exception of you ell the door who went out in in purchase bitcoin. But the numbers relatively small compared to majority the other countries on this list. Most of them acquired IT through law enforcement actions or seized IT.

But I think what really is important here is that if the us decides not to sell IT and we definitively know the us. Isn't going to sell IT, if trump says yes to make a study c bitcoin reserve, and let's start with the two, indicate bitcoin that we own and let's keep that. I think that's a signal to the market that we've never had before.

I think even as recent as last week or the week before, there was some commotion on twitter about big coin. The the U. S.

Government moving in big coin around? And are they going to sell before trump takes office? I think you remove that fear or that potential cloud over the market.

If the U. S. Decides to stockpile the existing reserve, then anything that's on top of that they decide to add or require, it's really just gravy from there.

You know world familiar here with with Donald trumps personality, and I think he doesn't like being second at anything. And so of other countries start to acquire by going start to have this strategic reserve. I think the U.

S. Follows into IT very quickly. And I think that creates this kind of space race that you spoke about.

And will these country sell? I don't know. Germany sold, obviously.

I think they sold somewhere around fifty k uh, so they are missing on a two x here. Um I think I. I must have some some german in my .

DNA alright .

guys coming in. Prediction number seven, coin base will enter the S. M, P five hundred micrograms gy will enter the nasdaq one hundred, adding crypto sposa, adding crypt exposure to nearly every U. S.

Investors portfolio, can you just walk us through the significance of this, uh, for the people that don't speak trade, which is me, uh, what is the significance of coin base entering the S N P. And for microscopy to enter the next dec. A one hundred? How does that change the game?

But this changes the game in a major way. I think there's two things that this really impact significantly. The first being that most investors say the air investors have no crypt al exposure in their portfolio.

Most investors own index fines. E, T, S. They aren't going on buying big coin on going base or some uh you know some hard wear a while or something like that. And they probably not even and we know they're even allocating to E T S. today.

But what they do and allocate to you, whether it's in their four one k or their traditional broken age account, they do allocate most likely to some kind of index attracts the S M P five hundred or some kind of index attracts the nazi one hundred. Or a benchMarks against that is to give you a sense of how much capital that is, is ten trillion dollars today directly indexed against the S M P five hundred. So that's ten trillion dollars.

And in funds out there that by the assets that the index, the S P five hundred index holds, that means the coin base enters the S M P five hundred, which we believe that will do at the annual reconstitution this december. That means that a portion of those that tens al lion dollars will buy coin base stock. We'll be forced to buy coin base stock, we calculate, based on the current market cap of coin base road to the other constituents of B S M P five hundred coin base will be somewhere around fifteen billion dollars worth of coin stock will have to be purchased if they R D S M P five hundred.

So go back to my point earlier, is that now you have all of these investors to have no crop to exposure, gaining exposure to crypto through owning the S M P hundred, whether they like IT or not, whether they even know IT or not, most people don't pay attention to companies that are shuffling. And in other S P, I hundred on annual basis. So you have this element now where most U S.

Based investors will have some kind of cyp to exposure to either microstrip gy or coin base. Buy them and drink one of these indexes, coin base into the S M P. mr. Rodgers, to the attack, and you have this billions of dollars in buying pressure going into these stocks from these funds.

And by the way, most of these funds at traffic indexes, people are funding new capital into them every month, every two weeks, every year as they get paid in, have automatic allocation to these funds. So it's a really big deal. IT gives exposure to investors who haven't had IT, and IT adds buying pressure to the stock. I've matter to double click on that a bit.

No, that's absolutely right. I mean, it's worth noting the fifteen or sixteen billion dollars is a big trump of coin basis market cap, right? It's only a seventy five billion doll companies.

So that's a lot of buying pressure. The as that one hundred is much smaller in scale in terms of the im assets tracking IT, but it's some buying pressure for microstrip gy as well. But I just love the idea of every large institution and every nearly every investor in amErica owning some coin day stock IT brings me great joy, right?

You don't like crap. You already own IT. You know your R T, starting to get off zero. So I think it's a big or signal moment the crypto has matured and made IT and it'll have an immediate impact on on on the stock itself. Yes.

funny because you if you own S P five hundred basically through uh microstrip your own straight bitcoin. That's all Michael sailors doing over there. And through coin base, your a piece of a layer too.

You're a non custodial wallet like that. You know that's a chunk of actual of real world cypher. Good number eight, which kind of have tells nicely with this.

So prediction number eight, the U. S. Department of labor will relax its guidance against cyp to in four one k plants, enabling billions of dollars to flow into crypt to assets.

I think we have to set the stage here. So some people are listening to this and saying, wait, there's guidance against crypto and four one case. And I wondered if my story is actually relevant to this in Davis.

This is a fun fact for a little bank less company. You know we have a four one k provider in A A bank lace. And you know they keep telling a me, I don't know, they're telling you the same thing. We can investment like five percent of .

our .

all of our four one k holdings bank less our own four or one k we'd like to be like ninety eight percent allocated decypher u in our four one case and they won't let us they only want us to have five percent of our four one case inside of crypto, I guess, because it's risky or there is some sort of law on the books does does that relate to this at all? That what what are we talking about here?

I mean, first of all, say you're lucky most people that number is zero, that they and second, it's not a law. This is almost an Operation show point two point o style tactic.

You have the department of labor, which overseas for when k providers come out with a warning basically out of nowhere in twenty twenty two, that told four one kay providers that they should exercise quote on quote, extreme caution when allowing people to allocate crypto u through four one case. And then if they did, they would face audit risk and close scrutton of their entire business if they proceeded down that path. Oh my god.

So that's what's happening because so we specifically we set up for one case for blankness this year, and we specifically found like one four one kay provider who do crypto, right really like oh, we found a crypto, a friendly one. And IT turns out every time we asked for more than five percent, they act like we are like analog, do dealers and drugs or something? They seem we're like, no, it's OK like where fire, we're comfortable with the risk and they are just like not having IT at all because regulators put the fear of god in them that .

ah and there are they are heroes regularly. But i've never seen a letter like this. You know I been looking at the four local market for twenty years. I've never seen the department labor come out and say they shout not invest in this or we're going to audit your firm and make your life a living how it's really .

the gay keeping, right?

It's a wild yeah god forbid american people saving for retirement should have exposure to the best performing asset class of all time. I'm glad that we have corn that off and protected people from that um I think gript us up a couple hundred percent says they put this regulation out. So it's it's absurd and coolers to you for finding the one out there that lets you to do anything at all. So but you're .

saying this will be lifted. You expect this to be lifted. This is Operation choke point thing that I don't think we've covered. Probably most encysted are not aware of IT.

But just to make things clear, any for most four one k providers will not allow you to have bitcoin anyway or crypto o in anyway, right? The tiny fraction that do, it's only a five percent max basically. And your same saying that in twenty twenty five that all goes away. You really up to one hundred percent. I'm really hopeful .

that IT goes away. You know I think most of cypher l missed this because it's a tradeoff y tool, right? There's nothing more traditional y that for one case, the last most clipt of people wanted talk about um but this is a big deal, right?

I mean, look at the chart there, you're talking about eight trillion dollars in assets. Uh, we use the example of this one percent of this allocated to crypto. You'd be talking about eighty billion dollars of inflows. But we just said three percent as a new one percent.

So three percent, this is a quarter trillion dollars, right? And then more than that, every month when you save money in your four one k you would have an exposure to cypher right now, like bank lasses. Maybe you one of the only firms for which that is true in the world.

Imagine if everyone had that opportunity. I think this would be a game changer. Everyone has their particularly regulatory thing that they're looking for in the year to come.

I haven't seen much discussion of this, but I think it's really big deal. It's my my personal window. So I hope IT IT comes down.

I want to drive this point home in the seven and eight, tradition seven and tradition eight both have the same theme of flows. Coin base entering the S. M.

P. Five hundred means that gets flows of people buying the index. The department of labor relaxing guidance for a four and k plants means cyp to asset crypto companies grip to assets can get float four one k flows.

And you just said that, that for one case is like it's boring, right? Like it's people don't really want to talk about IT. It's not we're thrilling.

That's why it's so big. That's why it's massive. It's massive and boring because this is the whole united states economies money. This is all of the all of the country's money. Uh, and so yes, it's boring.

But also I feel I feel like once you are an asset that is receiving flows either the S M P or from form, for one case you've made IT, that's the end. Like G, G game over and you just ride these flows into into one million dollar bitcoin coin base flurried these flows into the top of the charts. Uh, I kind of want to.

That's the message that I think I want to send out to the world. Do I need to be checked? Or is that about right?

Note that that's exactly right here. This is a the end game. This is the end game for where you get the permanent asset flows, you part of the ecosystem. It's incredible we've gotten to this point with effectively zero percent of the way most people in american invest, even being able to allocate decrypt to think of us getting to multiple trillion dollars without that and then think of what happens when that switches. And i'm hopeful that we see the switch in twenty twenty five.

It's familiar that that's the prediction i'm matching. Most excited about the nerdy four and one k tax one. I guess it's kind of one brand.

But that's something I didn't know amazing. So let's go to the ninth prediction here, where most through two more left. So stable coin assets will double to more than four hundred billion as the U.

S. Passes long awaited stable coin legislation. While that a big deal refreshed me, I think were at what one hundred and sixty billion, hundred and seventy billion, something like that.

Now to all, there's a graph, almost two hundred billion already half way to that prediction. okay. Tell us about the stable coin prediction and the legislation that you expect in twenty twenty five.

It's really funny that you that you frame IT that way, right? Because that I were just talking about this on friday that we've been working on these predictions here for, for the past month or so. And in that time, the market has drawn from that, that one sixty, one seventy number to two hundred billion.

If we wonder released these a month ago, we'd already be filling up that the progress bar on this prediction here. But it's really exciting stable coins to use, one of the most interesting in in fasting areas of crypto to, despite IT being, you know, in many cases, kind of relatively a boring to many people. But stable coins address so many different types of markets, their tradings, their remitted ces, their savings as access to the U.

S. dollar. These are all really, really big markets of huge markets, and we haven't yet had stable coin legislation in the U.

S. We still get questions all the time and were out talking to financial visors. Or what about A C B, D, C? Is the U S.

Can launch D, B, D, C? And is that going to make other stable coins? Or I even get the questions that can make bit coin nonexisting.

I think that just highlights that fundamentally, people don't understand the coins and they afraid of them in this weird way. And I think once we at pro crp to stable coin legislation in the U. S.

And I think that will happen next year, that kind of low hanging fruit for this new abn dc. I think that will open up the market for a lot of growth across the stable coin industry. We spoke about the acquisition, uh, that strike mate earlier this year of a one billion dollar stable coin platform.

And I think that's just kind of the tip of the iced when IT comes to stable coin growth. And then another area of this that i'm super excited about is fine tech integration. We've seen paypal launch its own stable coin that has started to grow IT started yet really popular.

Robin hood recently announced plans to partner with a handful of crypto u firms, launch a global stable coin network. I think once we start to see stable coins integrate into the fin tech apps that we all use every single day, integrate into cash APP and then mo and paypal and into bank platforms like cell, the growth of stable coins is going to melt faces. And i'm so excited for that.

I want to just jump right into the last prediction, prevention ten, because this is related to stable coins. Uh, everyone is on board with real world assets in cyp. Du, you guys tend addiction is the value of tokyo zed, real world assets will prove surpassed fifty billion as well.

Three ice crypto revolution, uh, really that is good for everyone's bags in the industry, kind of like stable coins, is just to tide that with all boats. But real world assets are slow. IT takes a while to to get the real world asset engine turning.

And bitt wise here is predicting the current fifteen billion dollar real world asset space will become fifty billion dollars by the end of this year, which is over a tripling, which i'll know is faster than all of the growth that you guys are predicting with in bitcoin, eat or salona or stable coins that we've seen so far. So why are you guys more bullish on real world assets ah then you are the rest of the industry. Why is twenty twenty five going to be such a big year for R W S?

Oh, first name frame. You want take a right. You look decor to something there.

Yeah, while I was just going to say before, before talking anything else, just look at this chart. Have you seen a more beautiful chart, which is up to the right chart?

This is a chart. So as described that this is a chart of real world assets. And when we're talking about real world assets, this is not inclusive of stable coin.

Ts, so even stable coins are kind of real world asset. This is non including stable coin. So we've got private credit, U S.

Treasury's commodities, institutional alternative funds, none, U. S. Government debt and the other.

And most of this is just like up into the right, including twenty twenty four, which has been already a big year for real world assets. A huge chunk of this is private credit and U. S.

Treasury debt. Maybe you could talk about those those categories too, guys, because i'm more familiar with them. You like treasuries on chain. What what is the private credit portion? What are some these other categories of R W S really see the growth.

Um you you see some of the private credit stuff on on platforms like maple in such um right. Are you seeing that direct lending that is cogan ized for that? I mean, the thing and and treasuries, of course, you can think of his interest bearing stable points is a way to conceive of that.

These are funds like the black rock funds, and ebs has a fun that take government treasuries that pay interest and bottled them into a token and put them on public block chains mostly on a theoria. Ah I would know this is a very a theory um story. Virtually all of the interesting real world asset stuff taking place on a theoria because it's the blue chip program of lock chain out there.

Um you know as I look at this is it's interesting, David, that you framed IT as a bullish narrative. I look at this is one of our like least bullish predictions because the the scale of the real world asset space is something you know hundred trillion dollars. This is still just a downpayment.

The reason the growth is so high and your right to frame meat is high growth is because we're still so very early. We're just at the initial stage. I mean, real world assets on block chains have been effectively illegal in the us.

Uh, and there are and maybe that is repealed in january, but um we haven't even seen you wall street firms have been building in this space even though it's been effectively illegal and even though IT invites regulatory scrutiny, theyve been finding their way through the cracks. If you imagine a world where it's not just allowed but welcome, that's where you start to get the flood of assets. And we could see, you know fifty become one hundred become two fifty at SATA in prety.

pretty short order been ten predictions matrix is this has been very good. Thank you for joining us. So there's actually, though i've been informed a bonus prediction here and this is a another Price call.

Okay, we're saving this for the end. I think you guys are is the bitcoin Price call. Can you give us this bonus prediction? I don't even know.

Is that in the report? Oh, IT is here. IT is okay. Bones prediction here.

IT is i'm going to read IT out in twenty twenty nine. So this is not next year. This is twenty twenty nine. Bitcoin will overtake the eighteen trillion dollar gold market and trade above one and million per bitcoin. So you guys calling not only a number on that of one million per bitcoin, you're also calling a year for the flipping ing of gold, which is twenty twenty nine a tell us about this prediction.

What's the math? Er well.

maybe i'll start ryan can fill in some of the map. You this was a fun prediction you might make because usually when you sit down and due predictions, you're thinking one year ahead and then one day, right? And I was chatting really like why are we in this box? We could literally make predictions for any time period.

And though a natural place to start is, when will bitt coin match gold? My own personal of view is everyone is early. Encrypt u to use your guys is of phrasing. Everyone is front running the institutions until bitcoin matches goal.

That will be the signal moment that were passed early and our in the sort of a mature part of the crypto to market cycle because it's at least to reach that level. And the question become when when that happened, the natural space, if IT doesn't happen this cycle would be in the peak of next cycle, which would be twenty, twenty nine. But right, maybe you have more to add on IT.

Well, I would I would add that I would love to see a Peter shift's reaction to prediction. Love to be a fly on the wall in that room. But yeah， I do think kind of just comes down to to the math here. If you look at goal, which by the way, the most valuable asset in the world at eighteen trillion darlin market, we think bitcoin actually addresses a larger market than gold. So for us, that makes sense for at some point it's going to overtake gold.

And we talk about four years cycles a lot here, a bit wise because if you look at the returns for the past, uh, tranches of four years, you have three really strong years in the year pullbacks, and that cycles repeated three times right now. We're heading into year three of what would be the current cycle if that continues. So we do think maybe they'll be, you know, a pullback in twenty twenty six, but then that ball market resumes once things kind of reset, once you flash out or flush out that leverage in the market and kind of the overseer lessons.

And I think once that happens from there, we continue to have higher highs. And in kind of higher lows when these cycles happen. You can see that with the Price here in the table we included in the report. And we think that the next wave after this cycle, the next wave is going to really push bitcoin beyond gold. And then i'm most excited about what happens from there.

Most excited about what happens from there. Exciting times for sure on the press piece of a very bullsh year, which is twenty twenty five. And as a if ball, I gotta say i'm also looking forward to the point where a theory um uh flip and silver, maybe we could do that.

Okay, silver one point nine trillion, that's just a four x away. Maybe i'll do that sometime this decade. Um math, right? And thank you so much for joining us today. It's been great to talk as we close out the year.

Thanks for having us. This was a lot of fun. Thank you guys.

Of course, as you guys know, crypt u is risky. In none of this has been financial advice. We really can't give .

serious Price predictions.

But we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us in the backless journey. thanks. what?