5 Skills To Succeed in ANY Career - Helen Tupper (Squiggly Careers)
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In work and outside of work, there is a really big risk that we try to make work the sole source of our fulfillment. So I think what we want to do is find balanced sources of fulfillment. Yes, a lot of it's going to come from work because you spend a lot of time from work. But it is why we want to think about what am I doing outside of work as well? How else am I finding that fulfillment? Helen Topper is one of the co-authors of this book.

excellent book, The Squiggly Career, Ditch the Ladder, Discover Opportunity, Design Your Career. And it's basically an episode that is all about how to figure out what to do with your working life, i.e. your career, and how to navigate what she calls squiggly careers, which is sort of the windy type of career that most of us are going to have these days. It's about not being limited by a ladder, not thinking that the only way is up and

that the only destination in terms of success is becoming more senior. Once we get rid of those constraints, it's actually quite liberating for people. I feel like I learned so much about my own values and my own strengths and what I value from a career. And so we started the conversation kind of discussing this idea of squiggly careers and where they've come from. And then we spend the rest of the episode discussing five key skills that you can build today to help navigate a squiggly career. So we start by talking about values finding, and that's

really good. We talk about strengths, we talk about confidence, networking in an effective way and exploring future possibility. A lot of people are motivated by getting more money, but it's almost like, well, what's the meaning behind the more money? Is it giving you status? Is it giving you significance? When you work out the meaning behind the money, you can actually unhook some of your dependency on the pay. Helen, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. So we're going to be talking about the squiggly career and the idea of like how to

how to build a career that you actually love. And like the twisty turny squiggly path along the way. Before we dive into that, I'd just love to hear from people who might not be familiar with who you are. Can you give us a quick summary of how we ended up here? Oh gosh, the quick squiggly path. So I used to work for lots of large organizations, mainly in marketing. And

And about 10 years ago, so 2013, me and a friend that had gone to university together were reflecting a little bit on our careers. They'd started quite ladder-like, like so ladder-like that I did three graduate schemes after the other because I just love that like ready-made incentive of progression that they come with.

But then we started to realize together that our careers have been going lots of different directions and we were really enjoying what we were doing and developing a lot. But we realized that other people were still stuck on this ladder. They hadn't been able to develop in different directions. And we decided we just wanted to help people take what we had learned, what was helping us and support other people to succeed in careers that were a bit more individual.

And then the more we did that, it started with evening sessions. So while we were doing our five day a week job, we would go train people in the evening and that stuff just started to stick and people started to share it. And this business sort of grew that became a book and it became a podcast and it became a big training company. And sort of 10 years on from that moment, that's what we do today. We have a team helping people scale Squiggly all over the world and supporting them with their skills.

Wow, that's a great pitch. What is a squiggly career? What is a squiggly career? It is a career where people can develop in different directions. So you don't have to be defined by the last job that you did. You have freedom and flexibility to develop in a way that's right for you.

That can be in the same company or the same industry. Sometimes people think squiggly is about making dramatically different changes to their career. Things like you've done, for example, you've had quite an extreme squiggly career, but you can still squiggle and stay in a company. It's about not being limited by a ladder, not thinking that the only way is up and that the only destination in terms of success is becoming more senior. Once we get rid of those constraints, it's actually quite liberating for people because

I can go sideways because I don't have to worry that that's a bad move. Or I could go back to something I did before and it's not a failure for my future. And people just become much more open and start looking inward, what do I actually want from work, rather than outward, what does good look like on the surface. And surface level stuff doesn't often make people that happy. It's the inward stuff that's better.

What is a career these days? Like, how do we understand that word? Yeah. What is a career? I think a career is a collection of jobs we do throughout our time at work. That's all a career is to me. It's the journey of the jobs. What we are trying to say is if you have a squiggly career, that journey of the jobs gives you more choice.

and it gives you more freedom. Whereas if you have a ladder-like career, a journey of jobs, that journey is only going in one direction and you are going to have a limited amount of control about what that looks like. Because when the journey looks like a ladder, what a lot of people do is they have to wait for promotions because that's how you progress on a ladder. Whereas when the journey looks squiggly, you are creating more possibility for your future rather than sort of waiting for somebody else to gift you that promotion. Mm-hmm.

Is the idea of Squiggly confined to... Like, for example, I'm thinking in medicine. It's fairly ladder-like. But...

Then I know a lot of people who have squiggly careers within medicine as well. Do you see examples of people within a more traditionally hierarchical field ending up creating a squiggly career for themselves? Yeah, absolutely. So gosh, we work with lawyers. We work with, actually, we do quite a lot of work with media companies who are, I would say, very siloed sometimes in the skills. They kind of go, well, I'm an editor, therefore I can't go into that function. So we deal with lots of different organisations and industries that are traditionally more ladder-like.

And actually because of their expertise, like there's an international organization we work with, with ingredient specialists, like they have PhDs and all kinds of things that I don't understand. They don't necessarily want to go and become a teacher. You know, they're actually quite happy with their PhD expertise. But the point of squiggly is it goes beyond a job title.

So we're trying to think about your talent. So, okay, yes, you've got your PhD and yes, you're some molecular scientist in this area, whatever it is, but what is your talent? Like specifically, what do you want to be known for? What gives you the most energy at work? And how can we find ways for you to stretch that strength? So you can still do the job that you're currently doing, but if you look at your career in a squiggly way, what you're thinking is, well,

If that's what gives me energy, that's what I want to be known for, then how can I build that beyond the job that I'm in today? How could I build relationships beyond the ones I have today? Because the more we get beyond the thing we're in today, the more opportunities we create for our future. But in that ladder-like way of thinking, we don't really go beyond where we are today because we're just doing the job and waiting often for someone else to give us those things. Yeah.

So are we talking like side hustles and stuff or like what's the, how does one go about exploring these? So let's take strengths for example, just for a moment. So if I'm thinking, okay, so I want to be known by my talents and not my titles. It's a much kind of broad way of people thinking about their development. And so, I don't know, what is one of the talents you want to be known for? Okay.

I don't know, let's say songwriting. Okay, songwriting. Yeah. I love that. It's not a talent yet, but I would like it to become one. Brilliant. So we want to try and stretch that strength as much as possible. The more people and places you use that strength in, the better it's going to become. So we might start thinking about in your day job today, how can you do more songwriting? Maybe you could write the intro, the intro music for your podcast. That would be a sort of a very relevant way of stretching that strength.

then we might think a little bit more broadly. How could you help some other people by stretching that strength? So could you volunteer? Are there, I don't know, music charities, organisations that you could contribute to? Could you get involved in schools? So this is,

where you get into the role of side hustles or volunteering and you stretch your strengths. I really like people to stretch their strengths within their organizations as far as possible because the more people within your organization that can see your strengths, the more they will spot opportunities for you. But we want it in and outside of the organization, different people, different places because...

The way of thinking about it, I think, is frequency builds competency. More you use it, better you're going to get. And openness leads to opportunity. So the more people that see it, the more people that are going to spot for you. And if we can just keep that stretch going, it starts to build your brand. You're

become known for that talent and the good stuff comes to you. Love it. Okay. I have so many more questions about the strength stuff. But before we go there, where does this idea of like ladder career progression come from? Yeah, it's so it's over 100 years old as a concept.

Apparently started in the financial services sector. That's the origins of the career ladder. Financial services sector, mainly for managers, apparently early 1900s. There were, I think, a big growth in clerical workers and managers were trying to create some conformity over careers so they could manage and motivate a rapidly growing workforce. That was kind of the origins of the ladder.

I'm not sure conformity and control are the ingredients for happy careers, but that ladder stuck around for a very long time. But it leads to lots of problems now.

That thing that was created 100 years ago for one context, mainly for managers, has sort of been extrapolated into lots of different environments and situations. And the world that we're working in now is very, very different. So we are not working in this predictable world. Like most people are going to do multiple roles in multiple companies and have multiple careers. Like it's very much different.

change. People also identify with work a lot more. It's not so much kind of clocking in and clocking out. It's much bigger part of our identity, which means we ask questions like, well, purpose. I mean, purpose. It's just the concept of having work with purpose is quite a new thing for people, making a difference, meaning at work. They are important things for us to consider, but they lead to very

different responses from different people. So with this ladder-like notion, what we're doing is forcing everyone to fall into one definition of success and meaning, you know, become more senior, get to the top. And it leads to lots of people actually competing with each other in careers for roles they might not actually want.

it leads to quite a lot of comparison. So I might look at you as someone who is successful and think, well, I need to be like you. And if I'm not doing what you're doing, then I'm not successful rather than actually thinking, what does success mean to me? And lots of people lose confidence. It's this thing that's been around for such a long time.

people think, well, if my career doesn't look like that, then I'm obviously not doing it right. You get this like the right career, the wrong choice, very binary. And it's just not that, it's just not that binary. Like we all make different moves. We all learn from different things and we should be using that to inform what we do next. It's not good and bad moves. That limits people making choices when they think every move has to, it's almost like this sort of

progression perfectionism which is holding people back from experimenting and exploring and just becoming a bit more self-aware. Where does this idea come from that every move we make we have to go upwards in this sort of metaphorical world? I think it's been baked in by the ladder. I think it was introduced and then

We've reinforced companies. So we've created organizational structures upon this concept. I've seen it, experienced it. And actually, I have been motivated by it because it's a ready-made achievement for you. The promise is you show up, you work hard, and you will go up that ladder. And when that is true...

I think it's quite motivating for people that, you know, I have a value of achievement. So for me, to some extent, that becomes quite motivating. But then you get to a point where that level of motivation

promotion isn't possible anymore because they don't come around that frequently or the organization's going through a period of restructuring and suddenly you're left going oh well am I not successful now? Am I doing something wrong? And it's not that you're doing something wrong and it's not that you're not successful and it's not that you can't keep developing it's just that very limited way of looking at career success and how to develop yourself starts to hold you back and

And that's the thing, we are not anti-ambition. I'm not anti people becoming more senior. But what I'm saying is if you become so blinkered about your career, that the only way you can progress is by getting promoted. And the only thing that is success is becoming more senior, then at some point you are gonna become disillusioned about your development. And I don't want that for people because I think work is such an important part of people's life. That if we are selling this story that success is becoming more senior for everybody,

we create a situation where I think a lot of people are unhappy at work. Yeah, that's so true. There's a friend of mine, Paul Millard, who wrote a book called The Pathless Path, which is kind of like, you know, he had a sort of corporate, big four corporate sort of management consulting career. And after about 10 years of that, decided to completely quit his job. And now just like, you know,

you know, internet freelancing and all this kind of stuff. And in the book, he talks a lot about how he had to deal with all of the societal and corporate pressures around like, oh, like I can no longer go out for drinks with the coworkers because they're buying $100 cocktails and I can't afford that anymore. And all of the things around that.

But one of the things he talks about, he calls it the accidental meaning hypothesis, which is basically like in the 1950s or thereabouts, because of these career ladders, it was the case that you worked hard at a job, you got promoted, you got the company car, you lived in the same place, you probably lived in the suburbs, you probably went to church, you probably had a house with a white picket fence, you probably had like three point X kids, and you were probably married, and you were involved in the local community. And as a result of the way societies were structured, at least in the West, in the West,

in that context, you were actually leading a pretty meaningful and fulfilled life because you were progressing in your work by default because of seniority and time. And you had meaning outside of your work by community and structure and like hanging out with the friends and family and things. Whereas increasingly now it's like the career thing no longer works because very

very few jobs have that linear progression but also we're all increasingly living in apartments in big cities increasingly moving around the world's becoming smaller and so we have less of that community side going on for us as well which somewhat necessitates us putting a lot of pressure on our jobs to fulfill the meaning and purpose questions of life yeah and I think that 1950s scenario as well uh

I think men's success in that situation was very enabled by the women painting the picket fence at home. And so as we have no longer have that kind of narrative, I think suddenly you can't necessarily have that kind of system of family life. It's just different. And I ultimately think it's better because now we have more equal opportunities in the workplace. However, it doesn't make it easy. It doesn't make it easy to sort of balance all those things together. But yeah, I can see, I will have a look at his work. Sounds very interesting. What do you think? So the,

The people that you speak to during and like through the course of your work, do you have a sense of like what proportion of people are totally happy with their career path versus like increasingly I find a lot of my friends saying, I don't really know what I'm doing with my career. And I feel like everyone kind of feels that, but everyone feels like they're the only person who feels that. Yeah, it's really interesting. I would say the majority of people are thinking about themselves

their development and whether they're doing the right thing. And that doesn't mean they're going to do something different. That doesn't mean that they're going, and I want to leave my company and I want to retrain to do something else. It just means that they are reflecting on

work and life and does it feel right for them right now? I hear a lot of that. And I think people just need to make sense. They need to make sense of what's going on. And if you can help them to make sense, okay, well, let's look at what's making you happy at work, your values, and let's look at what you want to be known for. And let's look at who's helping you grow so you don't feel like you're doing this on your own. Like lots of things that we talk about. Then sometimes you can go through that process and

they become self-aware and then actually this this is the right thing for me right now but I'm more confident in what I'm doing and why I'm doing it's the unknown and the uncertainty that people really struggle with and so I think a lot of a lot of what we're trying to do is to to create clarity and give people confidence about the direction of their development and that might be actually I'm in a good place or that might be I want to do something different but

so many people don't have the support. That was why we started the business because what we realized was in lots of organizations, you get to a level of seniority that unlocks career support. So you're like, congratulations on becoming a director. Here's your executive coach. And then you go through this epiphany about your life and your career and you make decisions. And you're like, well,

everybody's going through that uncertainty your friends my friends people everyone's going through those thought processes so why are we only helping senior people later in their career to make sense of it why don't we take the questions and the tools and the frameworks and just give them to everybody like democratise development don't limit it by level and then surely

everyone can start to succeed in their careers at whatever success means for them. So yeah, those, that, that conversation from the friend and the colleague and the mentor saying the same thing, like, I don't really know what I want to do either. That was a starting point for Squiggly. It was, it was that that we thought, well, let's just try and help people because we're,

We had those questions and we found some things that have helped us. So let's just try and share that with as many people as possible. Nice. Sick. Okay. I want to talk about the five skills to navigate the squiggly career. But before we go there, what, how...

What's your sense of how do people end up in jobs that they thought they would enjoy, but that they end up actually not enjoying? I think we, a combination of a lack of self-awareness and a lot of shiny objects. I think that the lack of self-awareness is we don't necessarily reflect for very long, unless you read the book, on the things that make you happy, the things that motivate and drive you. So we make questions

quick choices, we sort of bounce around from one job to the next, hoping that we will find out what makes us happy once we've got there. And I think if we could spend a little bit more time reflecting on what makes us happy before we get there, then we can make better decisions about our development. So I think self-awareness is a big thing. We just need to support people with a little bit of reflection before they move into new roles.

I think shiny objects is also another thing and I have definitely succumbed to these. So this is where it's surface level stuff. So it's grades, like when you're in large organisations, it's the, oh, I'm at a B level and I could get to the C level and we kind of get very attached to grades. It's shiny objects, like literal ones, like cars. Like I once took a job because of the car it came with. Definitely. And I remember sitting in my shiny car thinking, oh,

I'm not sure this job is really making me happy, but I'll just put the radio on in my car. So, you know, there's lots of shiny objects. I think salaries, to some extent, can be a shiny object. Everyone has a base level of pay that they need for their life. And then I think there's money beyond that that can become discretionary and shiny and impressive. It's sort of these status symbols of ladder-like progression. And when we haven't really reflected on what we want or we don't feel confident about the choices we're making,

defaulting to things that seem shiny on the surface can be quite persuasive as can other people's opinions and expectations. So if I am unsure about what to do and you're my manager or you're someone in my family or my partner

and you're very clear about your opinion, I might default to what you think I should do with my development. And so you have this situation where you've got sort of lack of self-awareness, lots of shiny objects and perhaps other people's opinions and expectations. And I think that is creating unclear career decision-making where people move into a position and then ultimately find out that it's not the right thing for them. And we just have to press pause

pause on that stuff and help people to get there themselves to sort of you know to look inward on those things and use that to make the decisions for their development damn love it um what are the what are the ways in which we can do that reflection reflection thing like someone watching or listening to this now what sort of questions would you be asking or should or could they be asking themselves to figure out what is the career that will actually help me become happier well i think

I think it depends where you want to start really. That's why we, when we talk through the five skills, they are all equally important in getting to that. Like, where do I want to go and how do I want to grow and how am I going to get there? They are all equally important, but I would say they're not all equally important to all the people all the time. So for example, if I'm, let's say I'm in a role that I'm really not enjoying at the moment and I have been in this position and you're not really sure why you're like, it's a good job. I'm paid a good salary. Like I,

should be happy. I don't know what I want to do. I don't know why I'm not happy. For that person, I would say work on your values first. There is no point you moving to another position until you've reflected on like what motivates and drives you. And you know, there's a whole series of exercises that can help people there. If you've got somebody else who's saying, I just want to do something different. Like I do that my job.

but I'm like, oh, I feel like my career has been a bit constrained. I wanna try something out. That person who's quite excited, you know, they're not lost. They're quite excited about the potential of their progression. I would say, let's go explore some career possibilities before you start doing just loads of random things 'cause you've got all this energy and enthusiasm. Why don't we proactively explore some possibilities, have some curious career conversations, collect some data for your development and then use that to make a decision.

So for that person, I'd be saying, well, let's look at future. Let's look at future possibilities and sort of start you working on that skill. So I don't think there's a one size fits all question for this. I don't think there's like a squiggly career question everyone should ask themselves. I don't think there is that. I think there is, where are you right now? And what's the skill that's going to be most relevant for you? And helping people to spot the skill and invest in that. Otherwise, it's really overwhelming. Trying to do all this stuff at once.

I don't want to overwhelm people with career development. I want to give them the specific stuff that could support them to succeed. And I think that is a very individual way of managing it. Nice. Okay. So I wonder if we start with the values thing. Yeah. So, you know, we've got a question from Henry from our Telegram community who says, let's say you're in a corporate job and you feel numb from the daily grind. You're relatively good at the job, but you're looking to find something that excites you. How do you go about this discovery process?

And he's also asking, how do you balance the monetary value of the corporate job with kind of exploring other options? That's a numb from the corporate grind. A motivating statement to start the day with. So first of all, we just need to...

take a bit of time to think about okay what motivates and drives me I think one of the easiest ways of doing this is to um we kind of call it the career graph exercise but you you're going to reflect on your career so far and some people have had quite a lot of experience some people might have a year if you've come off you know out of university you might not have loads of time that's fine um I want you to start wherever you think your career started to where you are today and just

sort of unravel the squiggle into a series of highs and lows. So I'd be talking about my career started on the Boots graduate scheme in Nottingham and just describe it. And I would say, okay, that was actually a high for me. And you might go, well, why was it a high? Because I was with lots of

keen people and we're doing lots of new things and I got a lot of variety because I changed every six months etc etc and then I moved into something else got my shiny car but I wasn't very happy but why weren't you very happy and you kind of unravel the career into a series of highs and lows and really start to probe the points in time that were particularly high and particularly low and the questions it's sort of like why was it high what can you learn from the low and specifically I would I would get people thinking well who are you working with

Not someone's name, sorry, it was Jane. It's more the characteristics. Were they entrepreneurial? Were they curious? Like what are some of the words that come out? Or what were you working on like a day in your life when I was on the Boots graduate scheme? What was that like? Describe the detail. What we're doing when we're analyzing these points in time is we're collecting clues because your values are present.

you're really happy so i'm trying to collect those clues like what was there when i was loving that job what was present and then what was missing when you weren't like when i think about some of my career lows a lot of it is because i was working in very process driven organization um with very sort of siloed thinking kind of people who were quite um

aggressive in their approach like when I think about some of the places I've worked and my values are freedom growth and energy and achievement and so what I can see was missing in those moments was I didn't have the freedom because it was so process driven and the energy that I need wasn't there because people were so um aggressive in their approach and so those roles didn't make me happy because I couldn't get that for my work so I've

For Henry, I would say draw your career graph, like map out those moments and probe the points in time that stand out, the goods and the bad. That will get you to a set of clues and you want to spot the consistencies, what three or four words or themes really, really stand out. And that's a starting place for your values. There's more you can do, but it's a pretty good starting place as to what makes you, you.

Then what we want to do is try and get those fulfilled as much as possible. In work and outside of work, I think there is a really big risk that we try to make work the sole source of our fulfillment. And that's where you start to risk and

enmeshment which is where I go well I now know that freedom, growth, energy and achievement are what makes me me so I'm going to try and get as much as I can of that for my work. I'm going to try and get all of it for my work and then what happens when me and my manager aren't getting on or I've hit a road bump for my business is my achievement value goes from green to red straight away and

my entire happiness is affected as a result. So I think what we want to do is find balanced sources of fulfillment. Yes, a lot of it's going to come from work because you spend a lot of time from work, but it is why we want to think about what am I doing outside of work as well? How else am I finding that fulfillment? It means you are less likely to be affected by the changes at work.

And also for Henry as well, talking about the money. So Henry now knows his values. He now knows that maybe find some of that stuff outside of work as well as inside of work. The money thing, balancing the money that you might get from a role with the meaning that you might want from your work. And I would suggest that you need to think about sort of the meaning behind the money. A lot of people are motivated by getting more money.

But it's almost like, well, what's the meaning behind the more money? Is it giving you status? Is it giving you significance? Is it giving you security? Like, why do you want more money? Is it freedom? Like for me, a lot of the time for me, yes, I want more money, but not so it's in the bank. That's not what it is. It's because I can...

do new things. When you work out the meaning behind the money, you can actually unhook some of your dependency on the pay. Obviously, pay is important because there are certain things we pay for in our life, but it's that discretionary stuff. If you are stuck on a ladder, becoming more senior,

because you want to get paid more I think that can become quite dangerous people's happiness because it's not always the pay that's making them happy it's the meaning behind the money so find out the meaning behind the money and then just just see if there's other ways that you can find that fulfillment or next time there's a pay freeze you're going to feel really really unhappy and it's likely that money means more than just what you're what's going into your bank

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Her argument in the book, I mean, it was written a couple of decades ago, but essentially the argument in the book is that fundamentally, the only reason we do a job is to make money.

And she's like, I know people are going to say fulfillment and meaning and contribution and like learning and all that shit. But she's like, but you can get all those things outside of a job. You can get all of those things by volunteering. If you had 100 million in the bank, you probably would, you might make slightly different, you know, different decisions with how you spend your time. And therefore, money is the thing. So let's call a spade a spade. A job is fundamentally about money.

And now when you recognize that, it's like, cool, how much of my life, my life force, my life energy am I trading for that money? And yet to your point around like the freedom, the growth, all of those things can actually be found outside of the day job. Potentially.

Yeah. And I think I just remember a personal pivotal point for me was when, so we were building our business in parallel with our careers for many years. So I was at Microsoft. I was a market director at Microsoft in the UK. And, you know, at this point I had two children and I had my side project and had the podcast and had the book and all that was kind of going on. And I thought I needed to make a decision. I'd managed all this.

together for quite a while and I was just becoming, I needed to make a choice. It was just becoming a bit too much. I think the trade-off that I was making in terms of time I was spending with my family and the quality of the work I wanted to do was I could start to see the impact of spreading myself so thin. But in order to make the move to do Amazing If, my company, full-time,

I had to let go of some identity things like working for a big company. I had to let go of that. But I also had to halve my salary. And again, that to me was a really pivotal decision where I had to... The ladder said, become more senior, earn more money because that's what success is. And I'd been on that ladder for a little while. But actually the squiggly career said, work out what's meaningful and motivating for you, build the support you need around it and use that to drive your development. And so...

That enabled me to have the confidence and clarity to make a move that not everyone agreed with. They were like, this is madness, Helen. Why are you doing this? You've done it like this way for so long. Just keep doing it like this. But that has been so much better for my development, for my impact, for my happiness. And then I think because work does take up such a big part of your life, it has ripples on the people around you too. And I think it has been better for my family. I think my children now see me

me being very happy at work and they see work in a different way because of that decision I made about my development and I'm not saying everyone should make that decision but what I am saying is that if you can put work and money in these slightly different boxes you know not not in the same like it's all tied together you just kind of hold them here for a second or just look at them slightly more critically it can help you to make different choices.

Yeah, that's sick. This values thing. A lot of people talk about, you know, figure out your values. But like, what I liked about the book is that you actually have a step by step process for how to figure out your values.

So just if we stick on this point a bit, I wonder if we, can we just like talk through it for me? Like how would we figure out my values? And I'm hoping that listeners or viewers can then apply this to their situation. Okay. So let's, let me ask you a few questions and then I'll just kind of collect some insights as we go. In terms of the people that you work with, what's most important to you about those people? If you were going to create your perfect team, what traits and behaviors would you want to see in those people? Energizing,

Getting stuff done, keen on pushing the envelope, entrepreneurial, friendly. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I'm going to keep it all in my head, no pen and paper. So kind of energizing, entrepreneurial, effective, they're getting things done. So I'll kind of hold those. And what about the type of work you're doing? What's most important? If you're designing your perfect day, what kind of work that you're actually spending your time doing and why? If I was designing my perfect day? Mm-hmm.

I really like teaching and learning. And so if I could spend some proportion of my day learning and growing, and then some amount of my day, like applying those insights or something, and then some amount of my day teaching or sharing those insights through writing or through making videos or through talking to people, more through talking to people and making videos rather than writing, because writing is kind of annoying. It feels more contracting rather than expansive. Um,

that would be a pretty good day. Expansive is an interesting word. What does expansive mean to you? What does expansive mean to me? When I'm giving a talk in public, I feel like,

more open when i'm sitting at my computer typing shit out on a google doc i feel more closed that's what i mean by expensive yeah got it okay um and then last thing in terms of where you work if you maybe think in your career the different places that you've worked the the team you're creating now the company that you're creating now what's important to you about the culture of those places oh okay

So friendly, casual. I remember when working in the hospital, the days that were the most enjoyable were ones where there was...

this sense of camaraderie with a bit of casualness. So kind of the younger consultants rather than the really old consultants that we were working with who could have a bit of a laugh and we'd go to the doctor's mess together and we'd sort of chat about patients while having some chips or something like that. And that was really nice. And then when I discovered WeWork and started working from there when, you know, during the pandemic, when I quit the day job, that felt like, oh, this is

This is my happy place. I just love, freaking love going to a WeWork, which is just like nice and there's free coffee and the people are wearing t-shirts and chinos and what a vibe, that kind of thing.

that kind of thing. - Amazing. So what I am, I am listening for the words that you're saying and I'm listening to the way that you say them. So when people talk about their values, I feel like when you're getting really close to it, if you watch people, you can see a very physical response. So some people go, "Oh, I hated it." You know, they'll like, literally they'll use their body like this. They'll come inwards and be like, "Oh, I hated it in that job." And you're like, "Oh, why?" Talk a bit more about this and I'm just watching the body.

When you talk about WeWork, you get your words quite very expansive with your body. You're like, oh, I loved it. There's people, they've got t-shirts and you're just getting bigger and you're smiling. So sometimes when you're getting close to what someone's values are, you can literally see it. I can see it in the energy that comes from someone when they talk about it because remember, this is what makes you you. So when you're in those environments with those people, you're like more Ali, it's more you. Or you hear it in repeated words.

So there are the words that people just say over and over. So you mentioned friendly about three times when you were talking. Yeah, you talked about, I really like, you know, like friendly people. It's important that people are friendly. Sometimes it's like clues in exact words.

Sometimes it's like a theme. So in listening to you describe, there's some sort of theme, I think, something about connection or community. Like when you talk about the doctor's mess, it's like this community of people, but it's a very non-hierarchical, equal. You talk about WeWork. There's this community of people. Everyone's there. I'm bumping in. So I don't know what would be community or connection, but what I'm trying to spot is these words that you say frequently, the clout,

as where there's some words that are similar. There's a cluster and then your body language. And that's all data. And for me, I'm just like listening and learning. And if I could just get you talking even more, I would get more data. I'd collect more clues. And then it is not my job to say to you, and here are your values. That's your decision. But part of what...

we're trying to do, and people can do this on their own or supported by somebody else, is to look at these clues and say, okay, what does feel most like me? I'm just presenting you with what you've played back to me, but I'm doing it in a way that creates clarity. So you said words like, you talked a lot about entrepreneurialism. I thought that expansive word was really interesting. You know, you talked a lot about learning and growing and sharing. And I was like, oh, is that expanding knowledge? Is that your value? Like you're expanding your own knowledge, you're expanding other people's knowledge.

I like to listen out for like particularly what I think are sticky words, words that other people don't say because then they're more meaningful and memorable to you. It's not like I've ticked it off a list. Like I don't really want people to just go through a list and go, oh yes, I've got a value of ambition and I've got a value of this. You might have it, but let's talk about it for a bit longer. What does that word mean to you? Because if I can find the sticky words, it's more likely to stick with you and then you're more likely to use it when you're thinking about your career.

Damn, that's really good. It's like you've done this before. Wow. I'm just blown away. So is there a list of words that someone could look through and be like, because like... There is. It's in the book because we have to put it in and everyone loves a list. But I just want people to think before they tip.

I want you to really think about what a brilliant day looks like and what a bad day looks like. And I want you to pick apart those moments and reflect on it. And I want you to talk to someone. I want them to listen to you. And then you can go to a list. But the list should reinforce. So I think use your reflection first. And then you can look at a list and you can go, oh, yeah, that was the word I meant. Yes, that's it. That's it. Or, oh, I think I've missed that. Rather than...

Taking one minute to scan through a list of words and going tick, tick, tick and move on. Values aren't a tick list. They have formed through a lot of your life experience and we need to unpick and reflect upon that in order for us to really move.

Like do the work, like do the work, but it's worth it. If you can work out what your values are, you will be happier at work. You'll make better choices about your development and you'll build better relationships with other people. It is worth doing the work. So yes, there's a list, but I'm just going to encourage everyone to like do the work first. Love it.

What is a good amount of values to have in one's mind? Yeah, I would say three to four. So if you look in the research of this, there's difference between core values and satellite values. So satellite values are basically like the long list of things that are important to you. You might have 10. You might be, okay, well, I've got entrepreneurialism and I've got achievement and I've got community and I've got knowledge and you might have this long list.

But we want to get down to three to four. There's a few ways that you can do that. I mean, sometimes you can just look at it and be like, it's those. If I just took some words now that you've said to me, these may or may not be your values because you haven't chosen them. But let's say I take the words, some of the words you mentioned. So entrepreneurism,

community, growth, and I want to say friendly because you had that one in there. So what I could say to you is what's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or community? Community. What's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or knowledge?

Knowledge. What's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or friendly? Friendly. Okay. Then we'd go to the second one where I talk to you about community. What's more important to you, community or entrepreneurialism? Community. What's more important to you, community or friendly? It's kind of the same, maybe. Yeah. They're getting at the similar. Hold that thought. Okay. And then what's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or friendly? Friendly.

Oh, friendly, yeah. Okay, okay. So I do have a few more words and I won't be trying to do this all in my head. I'll probably have a pen and paper but I'll be able to see. I'm always looking out for a couple of things here. I'm looking out for the noises. So you know when you went, ooh, I love an ooh because that means you're really thinking and exactly what you played back to me was they're getting at the same thing.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. That's a cluster. So you'd said community and you said friendly, but to you, they're very, of course they're different words. You look in a dictionary, they're different words, but to you, the meaning of those words is getting at something very, very similar. Yeah. And we don't have to worry about the exact word right now. That's just going to delay us. So we'll just call it community slash friendly. Okay, nice. That's going to just hold that

thought and you just take your list of words and you score them through exactly like I was doing there you take the first word score them across all of them in the next one we're basically ranking them all against each other to work out what rises to the top the ones that rise to the top that's the difference between your core values and your satellite and we're looking for three to four the reason it's three to four is that it's

memorable because I can't remember a list of 10 things it's memorable it's meaningful and it's manageable so I can use three to four to reflect on and make decisions a list of 10 I can't

I can't remember them. And so therefore it's not very useful. And also I'd trade them off anyway. I would always, freedom is my top value, trade it off for everything. So once you have that clarity about your core values, then that's where your confidence comes from to use them to make the decisions. To what extent are values the same as kind of needs? Because we've used the word need quite a lot. I think...

I think they're very similar. I mean, I think actually sometimes I think the word values can get in the way. You know, it can feel a bit self-development-y. Yeah. I think there are some people who... I figure out your values. Yeah, yeah. It's like I have a need for freedom. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I never... It's really funny language. Like we know language is really important. It's why, you know, we talk about confidence groups. It's why we talk about squiggly. We know language is very sticky. But also, I think sometimes language can just get in the way. And you know, you can talk

about your values without ever saying the word values like I might just say to you like if you're my manager I might just say to you one of the things that's really important to me is that I feel like I'm getting a lot of wins along the way like that is my definition of achievement but I haven't mentioned the word values I haven't even mentioned the word achievement I've just taken what that word means to me and shared it with you in a discussion maybe about my development or

what I'm doing in the company. And so if you want to call it needs, call it needs. If you don't want to call it, like you must like, one of the things that motivates me is, um, one of the things that I want from my work is like, it's all getting at the same sort of, yeah, just get rid of it. If it's getting in your way of talking about it. Um, how can you be sure that your values are not being influenced by external sources? Hmm. Um,

why I'm laughing because my, uh, the first time my business partner reflected on her values, she was working in Canary Wharf and she did them. I think she said it's like on the 23rd story of like a building in Canary Wharf where she was working in banking and she did all the exercises. Uh, and she came out with very, uh,

I'm just gonna call them canary wolf type values it was all like achievement and it was all very like one a one-sided version of her and a manager called her on it because I think she took she was like I've done it here's my work here are my values I've sat in this room on my own looking out over London and these are my values and her manager was like oh that's surprising I see other things in you like you light up in other situations this seems to only be one aspect of

you. And Sarah's like, oh, and then she went away and reflected on it a little bit more in a different place. And the words that came out were much more nuanced and much more reflective of all the things that she is and all the things that motivates her. So I think that is an example that we can be influenced by

the environment that we're doing this in, the people that we might be doing it with. And I think it's why with this one, repetition is really important. I think you should do these exercises more than once. I still come back to it. I will still go back to the career graph and I might do it for a year. I mentioned doing that career graph to Henry.

I might just do it for a year, like 2022 and think what were my highs and lows in 2022? And now if I reflect on the really standout points in time, the highs and the lows, what was going on in those moments, almost just as a sense check, like are those core values still the same core values or is something else creeping in? Has there been some significant moment that I didn't appreciate that's changed my perspective? And I've done that quite a few times and it doesn't change for me anyway, it hasn't changed. But that's, I think,

this is not just a one time only, I'll do this exercise and then I'm done. Like your situation will change, your experiences might expand who you are. And so I think we need to come back to this. And the more you come back to it, the more you see the consistencies, the more we know that we've not been swayed by a place or a person. Love it. So let's say someone figures out the core values and they're like, ah, I am not feeling these in my work. I'm not feeling a lot of these. What happens next? Yeah.

been there. So I think the first thing for people to do, I think, is not to panic about your sudden progression and just go, I'm leaving straight away. I think let's pause a little bit. There are sometimes ways that with a conversation, you can increase the amount your values are fulfilled in a particular position. I've done that. I've created roles in companies that didn't exist until I did them. So don't

I always think about, you know, like leaping versus learning. Lots of people leap into a new role. But if we spend our career leaping without doing the learning, then it's not really a great pattern for our progression. So we just want to sit and kind of think, well, okay, these are my values. How do they play out? Could they play out more here? Could I have some conversations about my career and what I'm looking for from work and see whether that's possible here? And I think once we've explored those different avenues, you might get to a decision that

I'm not in the right position. I'm not in the right company. And then at least you've got more insight that can inform your progression. So I had this experience where I was in an organization and I was doing pretty well on the surface that you would have said,

Helen's, you know, doing well. But actually below the surface, I wasn't particularly happy. And I really pressed pause on it and I went back to the skills and I was like, well, what is going on here? What's going on with my values, strengths, confidence network community? I was like, what's going on here? And what I realized was, and I had several conversations and I realized I couldn't really do what I wanted to do with my development there, which was, you

it's fine to come to that conclusion. But then when I went to my next move, I made sure that I had some curious career conversations with people in different positions in different companies so I could understand whether they were likely to be a good fit for me. So I was getting sort of, you know, I was like, I remember I went, I remember ultimately I went to work for Virgin and I remember saying how much freedom do people have in what they work on and how they work because

Same as you. So that's so important to me. And if someone said, well, we do have processes that we have to follow and work is very, I'd have a flag in my brain that this probably wasn't the right place for me. But what I heard was things like, oh,

oh yeah, I mean, everyone's got a side project and everyone's doing all this. And so I heard that this was likely to be an environment that was going to work well for me. And then, you know, you also want to make sure that these roles that you're going for, these companies that you're going to work in, that they need what you want to be known for. So if you understand what your strengths are and what you want to be known for, you really want to make sure that they actually need

that because otherwise you might move into a position that looks perfect on paper but it's not it's not going to be perfect for you because it doesn't need what you want to be known for and you're not you're not going to be happy when we're doing a job that you're going to be energized by you're not going to make the impact that you could elsewhere and so just spending a bit of time taking that insight using it to inform the move that we make means that we make better decisions but in the meantime because you still have these needs or whatever we're going to call you still have

the values within you, I would be looking for ways that they can be filled outside of work. So I would be thinking, okay, if I can't get this here and I've tried and it's not happening, that is not going to, that's not going to go anywhere. So are there communities that you can be part of? That's been massively helpful for me. Communities and contribution outside of work has been hugely helpful because, you know, if I can be a trustee for a charity, then,

my values for achievement and growth are fulfilled in slightly different ways. And if I can, you know, contribute to communities and part of lots of different communities, the energy that I need, which means positivity and proactivity to me, I get a lot of that from those communities. So our contribution and communities have worked well for me when in my career in the moment, my values haven't been as fulfilled as I might like them to be. We've talked about values. Yeah. What about strengths? What about strengths? So, yeah. Yeah.

You call them super strengths, I think? Yeah. So we call them super strengths. And I think actually, since we wrote the Squiggly career, because obviously we are talking to people about this stuff all the time, like a part of our business is helping people with squiggly skills. So I think our understanding is evolving all the time. And I think one of the things that for me in strengths has actually changed the way I think about them since we wrote the book is

book is this idea that strengths start with the things that you're good at. I think there's like a bit of a trap here. Yeah. So most people will say a strength is something that you're good at and super strength is something that you then become great at. You invest in it, you become brilliant at it, become known for it. I think the starting point for that is wrong. So the strengths being the things you're good at.

actually strengths are the things that give you energy in the work that you do even if you're not great at them yet so when people think they have to be good at something or they have to be great at it for it to be a strength they start sort of dismissing it and they go well I'm not as good as Ali as it so it can't be a strength because obviously it's your strength but I'm not as good as you so it's not it can be my strength and you get into all this stuff so if we just if our starting point for strengths is just strengths are the things that give us energy it's a kind of easier starting point it's the weakness thing I just want to really reflect on for a little bit so weaknesses are

the things you do that take your energy away when you do them, even if you are good at them. Nice. And that's the bit that I want to hold. So, the things you do, take energy away when you do them, even if you are good at them. Because the issue that I see a lot is that people have things that they're good at. We all have like, we've got a list of abilities, right? There's things we've learned to do, some things are natural talents.

But not all of those things give us energy at work. And it is a real issue for people's development when the thing that they are good at, they find draining to do, but other people see it as a strength and then they can't get out of a situation where they have to keep doing it. It's a real trap for their career. And what we have to start doing is make sure the things that give us energy that we want to be known for, that that stuff stands out.

And that we are not defined by the work that we find draining to do. Now, you can't just stop doing it overnight. So let's say somebody is like, oh my gosh, that is a revelation. I spend 80% of my time doing spreadsheets and I hate it. But you can't suddenly go, I'm never doing a spreadsheet again. Delete. Because your manager is probably going to get really frustrated with you. That's not going to help us build the relationships we need to succeed. But what we are aiming for is no more than 20% of our time on that kind of work.

Let's just be honest. We all have things that we find draining to do. We definitely don't want to be defined by it. We definitely don't want to spend all our time doing it, but it is probably still going to be a bit of your role. So 20%, no more than that, because we need to put most of our effort and energy into making those strengths stand out that we want to be known for, but also just get good enough at it. You don't need to be amazing at it. Sometimes it's okay to be good enough at things. So

spreadsheets for example just get good enough at it so it doesn't get in your way and definitely don't spend more than 20% of your time doing it because if we can spend more time on the strengths things that give us energy that becomes really self-fulfilling in a squiggly career we want to make sure that those things we want to be known out for stand out because the more we can do that goes right back to what we were talking about about becomes part of your brand gets bigger and better other people associate with you they come to you for more of what you want to be good at and that's where we want to get to

Nice. That's a really good way of thinking about it. It's almost a shame the word is strengths and weaknesses because it's like drainers and energizers. Yeah. I mean, again, back to language. Maybe we just, maybe strengths, I often find that people feel like they've done strengths and that can be a bit of a barrier, like a mental barrier. They become quite fixed and go, oh, I've done a strengths course. You're like, okay, like,

And how much are you using in your job? Well, I don't know, but I can tell you what's on my strengths profile. I'm like, okay, but it's just, you know, all those reports and tools and things, they're just an input. It's like what we do with the awareness. Sarah, my business partner, I'm always talking about it's awareness and action. It doesn't matter how many

forms you fill in, how many online surveys you take, how many courses you go on. If it's just a load of awareness, it's not really doing anything different for your development. So with strengths, I think we've really, we've got to put it into action. We've got to make those strengths stand out. We've got to stretch them in different situations. Yeah.

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there's no point doing a blood test if the results are not going to change the management plan and it's like you could do all the blood tests you like and spend like tens of thousands of pounds on all the fancy blood tests but it's not going to change anything yeah what's the point yeah and i think again and that it could sound a bit brutal like it could sound a bit like well you've

to fill it in but you've got to do something about it but it's true I think the thing that makes it a bit less brutal is when people understand the why like why is this going to be better for me well if you are willing to take that awareness about strengths and put it into action you'll be more energized by the work that you're doing and you spend so much of your time at work do you not want to be energized by you'll also have a bigger impact

Because you're gonna do the work that you find energy that you're gonna get better at. And so I think sometimes we do have to connect people with the why. Otherwise it's all just a bit theoretical, like invest in your strengths and succeed in a career. It's like, but why does it matter to you? And if we can work with the why at an individual level, we can often find the motivation to do something different to what someone's probably doing today. - Yeah, yeah, this is, I'm kind of like annoyed at myself 'cause this is like the exact thesis of my book, which we've just sent to the copy editor.

and i'm like oh i should have mentioned something about strength oh they love it when you go back and you add more things yeah they really enjoy that i've tried so hard to cut it down it's like it was 120 000 i had 65 000 words and i'm like you're so right i need to add in a bit because like the whole of part one is what are the things that energize you and how can we apply them to our work because the title is feel good productivity ah love it you know the way we become more productive is not by trying to manage our time it's by trying to regenerate our energy yeah and if

close to everything we do in our work can be energizing. It means you have way more energy at work. As a result, you're way more productive and you feel great. And then you get home and you have way more energy to do other things, like hang out with your family and shit. It's so true. I remember when I started Squidly Careers as a side project. So I was at Virgin. I just had my first child, Henry, and I'd just started an MBA and I'd just started a side project. And pretty much everyone around me was like,

That is madness. Like what, why are you adding this into that mix? You're going to exhaust yourself. And it was a lot. I'm not going to say it wasn't a lot. It was a lot. But the thing is, I would leave my work, my job at Virgin, and I would go and run a squiggly skills session. And honestly, I would get there about seven o'clock and I would probably start a little bit tired.

because I'd already done a day at Virgin. And goodness knows what time my little boy got up in the morning and study was on my mind. And so I did start a little bit tired, but that session would finish by half past eight. And I went home. I remember I used to go on the train. I'd get my lunch, the dinner from the station, eat it at the train. And I was so energized because that strength, that talent I wanted to be known for was about, you know, helping people learn, develop and grow in their career specifically. And when I did it, I just,

And I just loved it. And they gave me so much energy. And I would take that into my job at Virgin the next day and it would come with me and it would affect how I led my team. And that energy just continued. And so I'm not saying everyone should do all of that stuff that I did because it was hard, but I really saw the benefit of it.

using a strength that gives you energy in more situations and that actually side projects some people I think they see side projects as a competition for the day job you know like you're doing that side project because I never saw it that way I saw a side project as being a different way that I stretched my strength that meant that I got better in both positions I was a much better manager in Virgin because of my side project it didn't compete with that career oh nice that's just again put a

puzzle piece in my head where... Okay, so two things. One, there's a bit of a narrative that side projects are hustle-cluttery and like, oh, you know, it's hard enough to get to the end of the day of work and now you're telling everyone that they should have a side project. Work all. Yeah, just like chill out and watch Netflix and like, it's okay to have a relaxing bath and stuff. And I've always been like,

Not a fan of this particular narrative, because for me, the side project has always been incredibly energizing. And people would often ask back when I was working in medicine that, oh, you know, you were working all day as a doctor. That's pretty minding. And then you get home and you just make these YouTube videos. And then how do you do all that?

And honestly, it's because I found ways to make the day job more energizing by figuring out what were the things that energized me and actively incorporating more of them into the thing. Realizing I get a lot of energy from just hanging out with the nurses and just having a cup of tea and chatting about whatever. So I mean, let me actively make an effort to do that because it gives me energy. And then I get home and make a YouTube video and that would give me energy. And it's just like this energy flywheel continues. And then I was never exhausted. I was never burnt out in the job. And yet a lot of my friends and colleagues who would work all day, get home,

and then chill, the chill was not actually regenerating the energy. It was scrolling through social media, watching Netflix. Yeah. In a way that if you're really honest, like I get to the end of a Netflix sesh and I feel drained rather than energized. Yeah. Whereas a side project, I feel energized. Great. Let's keep going. I think there's...

there's a thing about active rest that I find quite interesting. Alex Pang talks about it in his book. And, you know, I always think there's like a scale and on one side, you've got kind of restful, we're asleep, we're in a great level of sleep. And then on the other side, we've got restless where we're trying to do way too much stuff and we're multitasking and we're scrolling and it's sort of like a restless mind when we're going through like

all these things. And often you can't sleep at work, like you do have to be awake to do it. So we can't just rely on sleeping in our day. And we know that that rest less thing isn't really working, but Alex Pang always talks about kind of this active resting in the middle where you're doing an activity that consumes your attention, that gives you the energy back. And I found that really, really useful because I'd always thought, oh, I don't want to rest because rest means doing nothing. And he taught me that, no, it doesn't mean doing nothing. It can mean doing something that you enjoy that you find consuming and

And it turns off all the noise of everything else. It turns off whatever was going on at the hospital or whatever's going on at home. And in doing that thing for an hour, and it can be anything, right? Some people like doing puzzles, like your nan likes doing Scrabble, whatever it is. It can be that thing, but it consumes you and it gives you energy back. And I think it's working out what is that thing that gives you that energy back. But if it aligns with your strengths, even better. Even better. Because then you're building that talent at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. So when I was recently...

penultimate chapter of my book is about recharging. And so I did a load of research into the papers and stuff around what is it that makes certain activities energizing. And there was a really interesting meta-analysis they did where they sort of did all this, and they came up with like four things. It's like, if the thing that you're doing has these four things, chances are it's going to be energizing or feel recharging. And with a bit of shoehorning, I turned it into the mnemonic CALM, C-A-L-M. So C for, I think, is competence. It's

So if you're good at the thing, more likely to be energizing. A for autonomy. Yeah. If you feel like you have ownership. L for liberty. Bit of a shoehorn, but it's like basically sort of sufficiently distinct from your day job or what you normally do. Yeah. Which is why Ed Sheeran paints rather than does music as his hobbies because it's like music is now his job and stuff. And then M for mellow. Again, bit of a shoehorn, but things that are not so like high energy, but are like

that feeling of calm and mellow that we get from doing certain activities, those sort of C-A-L-M activities tend to be the ones that recharge us. And then the actual words they used in the study were a bit different, but it wasn't nice mnemonic. So it was like, let's do some shoehorning. But I think people don't often prioritize it because they think that's not important, but actually the benefit of doing those things makes all the other things that you do in your day kind of more efficient and effective. Yeah.

So how... So I guess we're saying someone can ask themselves, what are the things that I do in my work that bring me energy? And what are the things that I do in my work that drain my energy? Yeah. And then it's like, oh, crap, like...

60% of what I do drains my energy. What happens next? So we need to, as well as that, oh crap, realization, we also need to do the, like the, oh yes, realization. Like the, okay, so those are the things that give me energy. I mean, I would just like look in your diary, like look at your days and the meetings that you've been in and the moments in your week and like just pick out when were the highest energy moments and what was a strength I was actually using in that situation. Like maybe you were researching or building relationships or like whatever you're doing.

And I would write a list of those words. And then from that list, I would pick no more than three, no more than three. I might even just go with one to begin with, to be honest. And the picking that you're doing is thinking of these words here, these strengths that give me energy, what do I actually want to be known for? I rarely see people make that choice. Oh.

I rarely see someone go, do you know what, I actually, that is what I want to be known for. If people are talking about me and I'm not in the room, that is the thing that I want them to say about me. And I think the risk of people not making that choice is that they leave this to chance.

You might say one thing about me and Sarah might say another, my manager that I work with at Virgin might say another. And so then my strengths are quite inconsistent. Different people are saying different things about me in different places. I'm not really building my brand in a consistent way. Whereas if I take control of this, if I go, I want to be known for career development, and that is exactly what I said 10 years ago, not known for career development, known for marketing.

I made a choice because it was a thing that gave me the most energy in my day. Like beyond the job title that I had, regardless of the company that I worked in, the thing that I loved was like helping people with their careers. To the extent that I got some feedback when I was at Microsoft from someone in my team who said I'd spent more time trying to understand the people that worked for me than I had the company that I worked in. And I was like, that is brilliant.

Harsh but true. And actually that's just Helen. It's harsh, true and Helen. But I thought it was a very clear feedback to me. And that's because that's the thing that I love doing. So you've got to make that choice. Once you've made that choice, you can start to really look at that strength and see, okay, well, what situations am I using it in today?

who and where could I use that strength with more? And that becomes a really intentional thing. I literally thought, okay, if I want to be known for career development, what am I going to do differently in my one-to-ones? What am I going to do differently in my meetings? What departments could I offer that skill to? I could run a lunch and learn. Until it just becomes just part of who you are because it's just how you're thinking about the things that you put yourself forward for. Mate, this is so good. I'm just getting so many dopamine hits and insights. Like everything you're saying is just so sick. Yeah.

What do I want to be known for? Like, yeah, that ties into the whole like personal brand, professional reputation type stuff, which I know gives some people a bit of an allergic response. Yeah. But it's so true. It's like, and you know, the thing I always say to people without really thinking about it too hard is like, you have a personal brand, whether you like it or not, because a personal brand is just a professional reputation. It's the thing that people say about you or think about you when you're not in the room.

And I guess what you're saying is like, let's think what do we actually want that to be and actually work towards it. Yeah. And I think two kind of things I think are important here. It takes time. So I couldn't come away from here and think, do you know what? I want to be known for being, I don't know, an expert in life.

neuroscience or something like that. I could be like, I can make that decision. That's my choice. But it doesn't just happen overnight. You know, it takes learning. It takes opportunities. It takes experience. But I'm just driving that for my development. So I think it is a choice that you can make and you can definitely change the direction of your development because of it. But it does take a little bit of time. And then the other thing that I would say is you can change your mind. You can definitely change your mind. Sometimes I think people think,

oh, but I don't want to be known for this forever. Fine, fine. Just know that you can make a choice and you can change your mind, but that it will take time to do it. It's also why I say with the five skills, pick the one that feels relevant for you right now, because this does take time. Reflecting on your values takes time. But you're at work for a long time. So we've got time to do all this stuff. We don't have to rush it. We just have to start where we are with the skill that we need most right now.

Yeah. And just like minor course corrections along the way. Yeah. Nice. That's great. Okay. So we've talked about strengths, super strengths, energizing strengths, values, and we talked about values.

You talk about confidence. So what's the role of confidence in navigating a squiggly career? Confidence is the key. Confidence is the key. I often think I'm not supposed to have favourite values. I don't know if I really have, but I do think that, so I'm not sure if I'm supposed to have favourite skills. I think values is at the core of a squiggly career because if you're going to have a career as individual as you are, you've got to know what motivates and drives you. So I think values is at the core and I think confidence is the key because if we are going to get people to take action

to do something different, to have a conversation, to make a difficult decision, all that stuff, they've got to have the confidence to do it. Or otherwise, it's all awareness. It's all nice in theory. And so we've got to get the awareness and the action and the confidence is the key for that. And people have so many...

beliefs that hold them back. We call them confidence gremlins because you really get into the territory of psychology here and limiting belief and that can feel quite uncomfortable for people and quite theoretical language. So we often, we talk about these as confidence gremlins and we see some very common confidence gremlins that hold people back, like not knowing enough, for example, a need to be liked.

People have some limiting beliefs about their age. Like I'm not old enough or I'm too old, like both of them. People have confidence gremlins related to failure. Like I can't fail. If I fail, I'm a failure. So there's confidence gremlin about they can't possibly fail.

People have confidence gremlins about particular abilities as well that really get in the way of their growth. I'm not good at numbers, any numbers, any numbers at all. I'll just say it. I often started at school when they weren't in the top set and then it's just this little gremlin has grown and then they're at work and they go, "I can't do numbers." Or presenting, that's another very common confidence gremlin where people are like, "I can't, I'm not a good presenter."

And so what they do is they stop sharing their thoughts and their ideas because presenting is such a big way that we communicate in lots of companies. So I think with confidence, the first thing that's really important very often is for people to know that they've got a gremlin and know that everybody else has too.

Because so often we're like, oh, I just think I don't know enough and I'm going to get found out. But most people have those kind of thoughts. And it doesn't really matter how senior people are or what position they're in. Most people have some kind of confidence gremlin that gets in the way of their growth. And I often find when we're doing squiggly skill sessions that it's this moment of realization. I'll be in a room. I was in a room recently with a

a group of lawyers and I was thinking were they going to be are they going to be open it was a group of lawyers talking about confidence and I was like are they going to be open to talking about this and we talked about the confidence gremlins and I got everyone to put their hands up every time they identified with one of the gremlins and they were putting their hands up in the room they were obviously looking at each other in the room and then we went through all the 10 most common confidence gremlins and I said and what what does this all make you think what you've just seen each other put your hands up what does it make you think and they they were like oh

we've all got gremlins. And then they all sort of laughed. And then it was like this relief. It was like, oh, I'm not the only one. They were obviously in very successful senior positions where credibility was important. So I think admitting that they had these thoughts was quite a big thing. But once we do it, you've opened the door then. You've opened the door and gone, okay, we have these thoughts and I'm not alone and it's okay to have them. But now we've got to cage the gremlin. So you've almost got to let the gremlin out immediately.

in order to cage it. Because when the gremlin's in your head, it's in control of you. It's stopping you speaking up in meetings, it's stopping you applying for positions, it's stopping you challenge someone if you don't agree with what they think.

Once we have let the gremlin out, we can more consciously cage it, which means that I can speak up in that meeting. Now, it's not going to be easy. I'm not going to love it because it's a confidence gremlin for me. But I am now in control of my gremlin and I can do things that I wouldn't have done before because the gremlin was driving my development and now...

I'm in the driving seat and the gremlin is still there because it's very hard to kill it but you're you are more in control and that's the journey we're trying to get people on is what is your gremlin let's get it out and then let's cage it for you and there's you know this set of activities that people can do that make that gremlin smaller and less significant but I always say like

it's probably not going to go away. It's sort of your gremlins are part of you and it's going to keep popping up, but we're just going to get better at putting it back in its cage. What are these common confidence gremlins? Oh, I have to run off to my head now. So things like a fear of not knowing enough, fear of not being good enough, fear of not being liked, a fear of failure.

Age-related confidence gremlin, the fear of presenting, the fear of senior people. That's an interesting one. Some people like just really fear senior people have a whole different identity when a senior person's in the room. One of the ones that I find funny, and I hate saying this because confidence gremlins aren't that funny, but it's just, it's a fear of uncontrolled bodily reactions. I find it funny because it's a funny thing, but basically some people have a confidence gremlin about how their body reacts when they are put under pressure.

so they might blush for example you know like they might get blush on the neck or they might perspire or maybe their hands might shake a little bit in a situation or maybe they might stutter all that kind of stuff like it's not particularly something they can control because it's driven by the adrenaline that's created by that situation that they're in but for them the confidence gremlin is more what other people will think of them if they see that happening and so because they're so worried about what other people will think if they see their neck going red or all this stuff they don't put themselves in a position where that's

that outcome is possible which means they don't put themselves in a position where they might be under pressure which means they play it safe in their career and so it becomes really they're like oh I'm never going to present on a stage because I blush and then people will think I don't know what I'm talking about and it's

The thing with confidence scramblers is often when you go and get some feedback from other people, they see that situation very differently. A confidence scrambler is quite a real filter that we look through that other people don't see in the same way. So they might say, they might do the presentation, they're blushing and they're thinking, oh, that was awful. And then they might go to a colleague and saying, what's the one thing you remember from my time when I was talking on the stage? And the person might say, oh, you were so clear and articulate. Or,

Oh, I thought you looked like so smiley. And like everything that's played back is nothing to do with this blushing that for that person was like a beacon on a stage. Like they were this big red lighthouse, but no one else saw it. And so often it's very useful to get somebody else's perspective on the situation where your gremlin really, really stood out to you because it helps you to realize that it is changing the way that you're seeing the world of work.

and that other people are not seeing and experiencing what you are. And again, it's just about going, my gremlin is creating this. It's not the reality. It's my experience of it because my gremlin's in the driving seat. And it's those little moments of insight that help us realize that, oh, we can do something about this. This is a choice. This is something I control. This is not what's going on in everyone else's world.

Let's move on to networks. Yes. So what's the role of networks in squiggly career? Oh, networks are so important. They will help you go further. You'll get where you want to go faster because people can see opportunities you can't see for yourself. So in a squiggly career, we're talking about people developing in different directions, people having more choice over where they take their career. But so many of those doors will be opened by other people. And so we need the relationships with people who can see opportunities

positions and opportunities we can't see for ourselves and so we've got to build that and it isn't just about it isn't just about new jobs it is about learning if you know the often you know people think learning is going on a course but so much of learning happens through conversation and in fact it lasts a lot longer like when you look at like how we know learning lasts in our brain discussion with somebody else is significantly more effective than just

watching a course. So our community is a source of opportunities. Our community is a source of learning, is a source of feedback, is an enabler for our growth. But lots of people, I think, struggle with building a network because they think about it as sort of people knowing people. How many people do I know? How many followers have I got? How many connections have I got on LinkedIn? Like that is like the sign of a good network. And

And that's not that meaningful. That doesn't mean you've got a good network. You might be connected to a lot of people, but it doesn't mean you've got a good community around your career. A good community around your career is one that is active and effective. And so we think about it as people helping people. Because if I'm helping you, that's active. Like,

here's some help it's an active thing and you've been helped it is effective so when we think about people helping people as the basis for this it starts to get a lot better and and two there's two big benefits of it as well the first is people like helping people like it's a human trait like you get the helpers high it's like proven that i if i help you it makes me feel good um and so when people feel awkward about building relationships starting with how you can help and what you've got to give it

It just feels nicer. But then if you look at research from people like Adam Grant and his work on give and take, givers get more. So I actually get more back by helping other people. I get more in return anyway. And this becomes a really self-fulfilling way of building your network. So it starts people helping people and then thinking about, and what have I got to give? And you do just have to trust. We kind of think of it as career karma.

But you do just have to trust that the good stuff comes back. You can't treat this as a transaction. So I can't think, oh, Ali's writing a book. I'll help him with that because then Ali can help me set something on YouTube. It's not, I don't think we want to go into this in a transactional way. You just think, what do I know that can help me to grow? I literally go around thinking that...

And when I say I literally go around, not to everybody that I meet in every minute of every day. I think you do also need to be intentional about the relationship you're building for your career. There is an element of randomness, which is like this weak tie stuff. So they're kind of helping people who you don't have a big connection with at the moment because you never know where that's going to go. But there is also a lot of very intentional building of relationships with people that you think, well, I know that person well.

could open that door for my development. So if I think about how I can help them, then perhaps in the future that might come back. But I'm not trading. I'm not transacting with help. Nice.

You talk about the three D's of networking. Yeah, it's a while ago since I've done that in that book. Yeah, we talk about sort of distance, donating and diversity. So I think the reason these are important. So distance is some of your relationships are going to be very close to you.

So, my business partner, she's super, super close to me, super important in my network. She's very close to my context. But sometimes there are people that are further away from where you are that can have a different perspective and can see things that you can't see in your world. So, distance is quite important. When you're looking at people, you don't basically want your network to be made up of people you see every day. We want some difference there.

donating. So we want to make sure that we are giving because then we will kind of get lots back. And then we want lots of difference. So you don't want an echo chamber of people just like you. And when we're looking at sort of difference in diversity, there are four roles that we recommend people to build into their network. So I think everyone should have these. I don't think everyone's got them, but everyone should have them. So the first role would be a mentor.

so somebody and this this gets really over complicated i just think a mentor is somebody who has done what you would like to do that you could have one meeting that you could be my mentor because you've done something i want to do we've had one meeting and we might we might not meet again but you still mentored me it doesn't have to be this relationship that endures the rest of yours and my career so it's just someone who's done what you want to do and they give you advice easy um second one is a

peer. So a peer is someone who is going through what you are going through. Really helpful to accelerate your development because I can talk to you about what I'm doing and you're doing it too and you get it and we can help each other. Like Sarah Ellis has been my peer for 20 years. I happen to work with her

But I would not be where I am if it wasn't for her. She's accelerated my growth massively. The next one is a sponsor. So a sponsor is someone who can advocate for you. So they have got access and influence over an area you're interested in. So you've got to just think, well, what am I interested in? Am I interested in writing a book? Am I interested in starting a podcast? Am I interested in that position and that team over there? Like who's got access and influence?

that person is, it could be a brilliant sponsor for you. You can't ask for sponsorship. So I can't just say, can you say brilliant things about me and that team over there? That sponsor needs to see me at my best. So when we talked about strengths, we want that person to see our strengths, like really see as an action. They're much more likely to support us then. And then the fourth role is a coach. Now, this doesn't have to be a professional coach. They are quite expensive to have a career coach, definitely not accessible to everybody.

I think it's better to think of this as someone who's got a coaching approach, which means they're very good at asking questions, right? And they're very good at just

stopping talking to let you think. And they might follow with another question, but what they are not doing is answering the question. That's for you to do. And so if you know people who've got that ability, they're really, really helpful to have in your career community because they'll help you think differently. And so as well as like the three Ds, I actually think those four roles, again, you know, I said that we are evolving our thinking all the time. We wrote the book, well, the book was published in 2020. And since then we've trained like

almost 200,000 people. And it was almost like in each one of the conversations I have, I get some feedback on how effective tools are and they're kind of, we're always evolving them. We're always seeing what sticks. We're always seeing what's useful. And I think I'm finding that those four roles and people really focusing on those are one of the most useful ways they can build their community. The principle people helping people, but the practical focusing on those four roles. Sick.

One thing people always ask is any tips for finding a mentor? Yeah. Yeah. Don't ask for one. Yeah. I sometimes do get emails being like, will you be my mentor? It's like random people. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't ask for one. And first of all, I think you need to work out what it is you want to learn. So, um,

I might say one of the things that I want to learn about is commercial skills or investing actually is one of the things that I want to learn about. I think amazing if my business were thinking about creating an investment fund so that other people who are doing stuff in the career space, we can help them to grow more than us just operating the space. So we want to create an ecosystem of Squiggly Career Support.

But I've not done that before. I don't know how to do it. So for me, who's done what I would like to do? A good mentor would be somebody who's maybe built some kind of investment fund and they've got some experience of doing that from scratch and everything that goes with it. So now I know what I want to learn. I can think about who. I might think about who do I know in my network that's got the knowledge that I need?

And maybe I don't know anybody. So I could go to somebody else that's in my network and say, do you know anyone who? We don't always know everyone we might need to know. So it's fine to ask someone, but you can be very specific. I'm not saying, can you introduce me to Ali? I'm saying, one of the things that I'd really like to learn about investment funds, do you know anyone who? And so it's about the what before we get to the person.

Because otherwise, I think people just ask senior people to be their mentors because it looks impressive. And we've got to be specific to be genuine. And then when we're making that request for that person's time, I think the way that we articulate that request is really important. So this is where we get to the kind of the why I'm coming to you. So let's say you have got investment experience that I would benefit from.

I might say, one of the things that I'm really focused on is amazing gifts growth and impact. And one of the ways that I think we can do that is by investing in other people's businesses. I know that that is something that you have done before. And I think you've got a lot of knowledge that I can learn from. Would you be prepared to spend half an hour with me just sharing the insights that you got so that I can use that to inform the things that I'm planning to do? And if I'd just gone to you and said, will you be my mentor? Yeah.

That's like a recurring commitment on my time. I don't have time. Like, come on, like, who are you? Who are you? How much time do you think I actually have? Like, there's no, it's too hard. We don't want to make it hard for people to help us. We're people helping people. I want to make it as easy as possible for you to help me. Now, you and I might have that meeting and that might be all I need.

Like you might just be like, here's five things that I think you should look at. See you later. And you still help me, right? It's still been useful. Or you and I might have that meeting and there might have been some kind of connection. You're like, oh, I find what you're doing is really interesting. I'd actually quite like to see how it goes and how it grows. And I'm like, and you know loads more than I've got out of you in 30 minutes. And because we've got that sense of connection, that conversation is likely to continue. Now this is

really really important for the mentee the mentee needs to follow up if the mentee wants that conversation to continue so if I'm like I really want to see you again because there's a lot more that I could learn from you it's really important that after that meeting not same day like give it a few days actually do something with what that person has shared follow up

with the mentor. So go back to the mentor, say, "Thank you so much for your time. As a result of this conversation, these are the things that I've already done. I really appreciate it. And I would love to continue the conversation if you're up for another meeting in the future." Because the mentor gets two boosts in their brain.

The first boost is when they helped. Like when you gave me help, you're like, oh, made me feel good. Help is high. People are helping people. Second boost is when you know the impact of your efforts. So when I play it back to you, you're like, oh, that was a good use of my time. She's done something with what I gave her and therefore you're much more likely to give it again. So I think if we can approach mentoring a bit like that, I think it's better for both parties. Yeah. And the word mentor is like never even used. Yeah. Yeah. I just...

help and knowledge and like that's more yeah i think people under under appreciate because i feel like a limiting belief a lot of people have is oh why would that why would this person this important person want to talk to me about the thing i don't realize that like if you approach it in the right way then it's just it's just nice to everyone loves sharing what they've learned and someone to be interested in that and for that person especially to then take action on applying the thing you're like oh sick

Yeah. And you might even become friends. And back to confidence gremlins, maybe they've got a confidence gremlin about senior people that's getting in the way of that. So you might have to unpick the confidence gremlin and say, you know, they might say, the limiting belief might be a senior person will never make time for me. And it might, the limitless belief is I've got some, I can help the senior person to see that

I don't know, to see this as a different situation or something, you know, like I've got some insight that they actually could help them because they can't see this situation from the position that they're in. And so, so much of this stuff is tied together. That's why there's five skills. I love it. All right. Skill number five, future possibilities. Yes. What would you like to know? Um,

what are what do you mean by future possibilities so what we are trying to do here with this skill is to help people to be proactively curious about their career and if i just go kind of right back to the ladder for a moment what the ladder often leads to is people not being practically curious they're actually much more reactive about how they manage their development and the most proactive thing they probably do is they make a

plan. They might make a plan. So I'll get a piece of paper and I say, you know, 2023, I'm CEO of Amazing If and 2024, I'm going to do this and then 2025, I'm going to do this. And that's like, I might plan a series of roles. And then I often become quite blinkered by what I've put in front of me.

me and I don't tend to explore around it. And then the problem is when those things don't materialize, I suddenly start to get a bit stuck or a bit frustrated by it. So we're trying to get away from the idea that we can plan all this stuff. We're trying to get away from people fixing their future. And so possibilities are more about career curiosity. And instead of fixing things, we're trying to be a bit more flexible. So that's the skill here really is to be practically curious about your career.

And you can do that in lots of different ways. What I often suggest as a starting place here is that people go and explore for specific possibilities. Like, I don't mean apply for jobs. That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying,

I want you to go and talk to people and get closer to these career possibilities. And so four that I'd recommend people have a look at, the obvious career possibility. So we all have a move that probably makes squiggly sense. Like when I was at Microsoft, it was my manager's job. Like that's what people thought I should do and it seemed sensible to do. Yeah.

Now I run my company. The sensible move for me to make is actually just stay in my job because it's growing. My company is growing and so I will grow with it. That's the sensible move for me to make. And the reason I want people to explore this one a little bit more is because a lot of people assume that because it's obvious it's the right move for them to make. So they take on their manager's job or they go for that promotion because they're currently a junior and they should be a senior and all those kind of things.

or I just stay in my role because it's obvious that it's growing and I should stay in it. And actually, maybe that role doesn't actually need what you want to be known for, the strengths. Maybe that role doesn't align with the things that really drive and motivate you back to your values. So it'll be a good fit for you if it fits with your values and strengths.

If it doesn't, then it might look good on paper, but it's not going to be good for you. And so we only know that stuff when we talk to people who are in those positions. Maybe we find time to spend time in those meetings. We're observing it from a slightly different perspective. You know, we're kind of looking out for things. So obvious ones could play stuff. Ambitious possibilities, definitely worth spending a bit of time getting curious about those. So those are the ones that are interesting, but feel a bit out of reach right now.

Sometimes that's because it's more senior, like nothing wrong with wanting to be more senior. Sometimes it might be a sideways move. Like I might think, oh, I want to go do this thing over here. Feels a bit ambitious because I've never done that before. The issue with this possibility for lots of people is because it, it,

it feels out of reach. They leave it for too long. They're like, oh, I'm not ready for that yet. Or people are going to think that I'm being too ambitious. I often hear that confidence gremlin coming up from people. But the longer you leave it, the further it will always feel away. So we want people to just go and have a conversation, make a connection, get close to that context. The closer you get, the sooner that school-good career possibility is going to become more of a reality. The longer you leave it, the further that one's always going to feel away. Third one are pivots.

So pivot possibilities, these are fun. I like these ones. So in ladder-like careers, we often look through our progression through the lens of a job title.

That gets really limiting because it always has to sound senior and similar. In squiggly careers, I want people to look at their future through the lens of their talents. So who needs what I want to be known for in my company, outside of my company, in this community, outside of this community. And then you just start going, you kind of get beyond a job title. You start matching in a very different way based on talents. That's quite another one. And then the fourth possibility is the dream one. Lots of people discount the dream.

So this is like the unconstrained career choice. Like we've all got constraints, how much we need to earn and where we need to live and what we need to know and all these kinds of things. Some are very real. But if you just took them away for a moment, what would you do if you could do anything? Some people love that one. You love that, like you're nodding because maybe because some of your values align. Some people get really scared by it. They're like, I don't know, I don't know.

But I get people to sit with it a little bit and then think, well, what do you need to know? Like, let's not discount the dream. Like, why would we discount the dream? Like, what do you need to know about it? And who could you find that out from? And I always find with the dream, there was a quote that really helped me.

to speak what you seek until you see what you said really helped me with the dream one. Like speak what you seek till you see what you said. So if there's something that you want to do, it is very unlikely that it's gonna happen if it just exists in your head. But if you talk about it, if you say like, this is what I might like to do in the future, this is what I'm interested in, it is much more likely that you're gonna see what you said because someone might know someone or someone might be able to enable it or someone might just support your ambition in a different way. And all you've got to do

is have curious career conversations about different career possibilities. And sometimes you rule them in and you go, that sounds amazing. And sometimes you rule them out and that's totally fine. But what happens in the course of those conversations is you start to get closer to the possibilities and the people that are connected to them become more aware of you. And so it starts enabling and the possibilities become probabilities, which become positions for you in your future. That's the journey we're trying to go on.

Love it. At the end of the book, you have a thing like 100 pieces of career advice. We do. Just to end with, like, what are three of your favorites? Three, three, three. Three of your favorite pieces of career advice. I'll go mine, Sarah's and Simon Sinek's. So we'll go with those. So mine is to run your own race. I have found that to be

a really enabling piece of career advice for me that has unhooked me from comparison and given me a lot of confidence. That's really worked for me. Sarah's is to never live the same year twice. So she's very driven by variety and, um,

And that really keeps her, like, I think it just keeps her growing, really keeps her growing. And then Simon Sinek's that really stuck with me because he was on the podcast and I asked him his advice. And he said to, you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to pretend that you do.

And I thought, oh, it's quite liberating to hear somebody who is like so successful sort of admit that they don't know everything and they don't need the pressure of having to know everything. And they don't have to pretend that they know everything. And I was like, oh, that's quite nice to just admit that we're all sort of work in progress and that we don't need to know everything. That takes the pressure off. So there were three, but there's so many in there. And I think, you know, you read in a quote what you need right now. You know, so I think, you know, when you go through quotes, some of them...

They stand out to you at different moments because of what you need. So I think it's a chapter for me that I can go back to. And actually my favorite one has changed just because of what I need right now. Right. I think that's a great place to end this. Helen, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

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