Sex, Relationships and Everything in Between - Hannah Witton
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Hey friends, welcome back to Deep Dive. What you're about to hear is a conversation between me and my friend Hannah Witton. Hannah is a sex and relationships educator who's been making online content for over 10 years. She's pretty famous for having very open and very taboo busting conversations around things like sex and disabilities and love and relationships and stomas and all that fun stuff. And she's got a few popular series on YouTube, including Drunk Advice,

The Pleasure Trove and The Hormone Diaries. She's also written two books themed around sex education and she hosts a weekly podcast called Doing It, which I actually featured in a few months ago. In this conversation, we talk about all sorts of things, including how she first got the confidence to start making sex education content on the internet at the age of 19. We talk about the problem with sex and relationships education in schools, and we touch on a bunch of stuff around how to build healthy romantic relationships, around sexuality, around gender,

and we answer a bunch of questions that you guys sent in via Twitter and Instagram. I really enjoyed the conversation, and whenever I speak to Hannah, I'm always just...

just amazed as to just how open she is in talking about things that the rest of us would be, would feel very uncomfortable talking about. And I think she does such a great job in kind of de-stigmatizing a lot of the baggage around the idea of sex and relationships education. So that's it from me. I hope you enjoy this episode. So Hannah, welcome to the show. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm really excited to be here. Thanks for having me. So you're five months pregnant now. Yeah. How do weeks and months work? I think I might be six months. I don't know.

I'm 26 weeks. 26 weeks. Yeah. What's it been like? A mixed bag, if I'm honest. Like the first couple of months was hell on earth. And now apparently I'm in the like...

good middle bit, but I'm coming to the end of the good middle bit and then it could potentially get bad again. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm just enjoying this stage where I'm like, I feel human. This is fine. Nice. You see, I understand you had a few issues in the first trimester. Yeah, I was, I just was really ill, like fatigue, nausea, vomiting, nausea.

all of the fun stuff that you get. And I couldn't really work for two months. I was just like a useless blob on the sofa, just completely, like it just completely floored me. And I think at that stage as well, it's like really difficult because you're not showing, you're not really telling people. And then, yeah, it was just like quite isolating as well because you're just like, I am an ill person and no one knows. Yeah.

- So what did you do in that time? - Watched a lot of movies. I did in the end, like reach out and tell people like earlier than you're supposed to. 'Cause I was just like, I just, I need company. Like I'm like, I feel physically ill and I'm also making myself mentally ill by not like reaching out to my support network. And so, yeah, like my parents came down to see me. I had a bunch of friends like taking interns to like visit, which was nice.

Yeah. And then it kind of gradually, gradually got better. Okay. So like one thing that I've heard people say is that

you feel this like glow and you feel like the endorphins and it like feels great at some point. Yeah, I don't know. I remember kind of like coming to the end of the first trimester and like entering the second trimester and like my bad symptoms were gradually leaving me and I was like, when's this glow gonna show up? Like, come on glow. But I don't know. I think people just maybe say that

in comparison to like how shit they felt in the first trimester because i've noticed like for the last two months i'm like this is great i feel like me again but i don't know if it's like a pregnancy glow or just like at least i don't feel like that anymore yeah yeah the other thing i've heard some people say is that it feels like your body doesn't belong to you anymore

Yeah, I mean, the first trimester, I was calling the fetus a parasite. My mom did not like that. My mom was like, stop calling it a parasite. I was like, it is a parasite.

And then it got to the point like once it stopped like literally sucking the life force from me that I was like okay you can be a baby or a fetus now like it's fine. Nice. But yeah it is weird you're like something has hijacked my body. Yeah. And apparently this is something that I wanted. Now it's like because I can feel the baby moving now and stuff so there is like this like oh that's like

this like alien inside of me like I just keep on thinking that scene from Alien where like the thing like rips out from the inside of his belly and I'm like yeah yeah that's what I keep on thinking is like about to happen at any moment yeah very strange so like one thing that always struck me about you um when I when I first I think I came across your channel about four years ago three four years ago is

is that you are very, very open about things that people would be, a lot of people would be uncomfortable about being so open about. And, you know, you've had this kind of internet plus writing career as like a sex and relationships educator for the last 10 years now or so. I wonder for people who might not be familiar with your story, how did we get here? Yeah, how did we get here? So yeah, cast your mind back to 2011 YouTube.

And it's a very different kind of landscape. And I just was a fan of a lot of YouTubers and was like watching a whole bunch of different vloggers and saw that they were all friends with each other. I was like, oh my God, how do I become friends with them?

Well, they're all friends with other people who make videos. So I should make videos. So that was definitely one of my leading motivations was like infiltrating this friend group. Trying to make friends. I mean, success though. Yeah.

somehow managed it like they they don't know that i was just like an absolute creep um well actually now that they know me better now they're probably like yes hannah i would say confirmed you you're a weirdo um but yeah no i it very much just started like there's this really cool online community and i just want to be a part of that um didn't start off making videos about sex and relationships that came kind of like

Within the first year though, so it was quite early days. Yeah, I just started making a bunch of videos for fun. Just connecting with all sorts of different people like all around the world online, like making internet friends and stuff. And it was, yeah, it was just like a really exciting time to kind of like have this weird hobby. Yeah. So what were your first videos about?

I don't even know. Was it like lifestyle vlogs and that sort of stuff? No, honestly, I don't even know. It's like the kind of YouTube where you're like,

Hey, I felt like filming a video today and like this is what's been on my mind or like or like there would be videos that I would make that would literally just be an entire video that was an inside joke with me and my internet friends. Like, oh, like that was the video. Yeah, because it was a very like non-mainstream thing back in 2011. Yeah. I guess sort of 2007 through 2012. Yeah.

Sort of feels like, oh, kind of the golden early days where people were just doing stuff. Yeah. There wasn't such a kind of monetization machine behind the whole thing. And a lot of the people that I aspired to and a lot of the people that I watched online were those like initial like 2007, 2008 like vloggers. So I was very much like watching these people who had kind of like.

You know, where the pioneers were the ones that were like actually creating like what YouTube culture was at that time. So I was very much influenced by that, which was it was very community based and very much just like, let's all have fun. So you started off making these kind of random videos, talking to your Internet friends. What happened then? Like how did the sex and relationship thing come into the mix? Yeah, it's really tricky. Like I sometimes I...

look back and be like, how did this happen? And then I think sometimes I may be assigning too much meaning to like earlier experiences of like, ah, that is why I'm a sex educator now. But like, you also have to kind of, I don't know, accept that it was just a bit random as well, rather than like there being any deeper meaning there. But there was like an American YouTuber who made a lot of videos about sex and did like sex education. And I watched a ton of her content

and was just really inspired by it. It was where I probably got most of my sex education from. Like I was 19 at this time. And like previously, like hadn't really been scared of talking about sex. Like I remember being like 14 in the class where you're like supposed to put condoms on bananas, although we were given test tubes. Yeah.

which is what our school had access to and like no one in my group wanted to even touch the condom and me 14 years old was like oh god like give it to me put it on the wrong way around and it just like starts rolling up and the nurse is like ah it goes on this way around but you know this is why you gotta practice first because better get it wrong on a test tube and not a penis um yeah and then like I remember when I was 17 like I went to a catholic college and um

We had a class on like healthy relationships because you still have to do like RE and stuff. And then I was like, are you going to teach us about like contraception and all of this stuff? And the teacher was like, it's against the Catholic church. I can't.

tell you about those things. And I was like, we're all 17, 18 years old here. Like we're all having sex. Like just like had a bit of a moment, like just being like challenging my RE teacher. Um, so all of that, that was kind of like the backdrop of then, like, then I found the information that I was looking for online and suddenly was just like, Oh my God, I wasn't taught this. Like, this is all new information to me. Um,

And then it was like, I did kind of like see an opportunity there because there was nobody making sex ed videos in the UK. And it was something that I was really interested in, loved talking about and also wasn't scared to talk about. And by that point as well, like I've been making YouTube videos for like just under a year and

I've grown like a very small audience at that point, but you know, the demographics on YouTube, you know, it told me that they were mostly young women. And so I was like, I want to use this, albeit very small platform for like good and like have a positive impact on this community. And so then I was like,

I'm going to make sex ed videos. How small was the audience at the time? Can you remember? Are we talking like dozens or hundreds or thousands? Probably more in the hundreds to thousands realm. Oh, okay. Cool. So by like today's standards, people are like, oh, you know, before 100,000 and stuff. It almost feels like maybe not quite a thing or something, but like really the...

How you feel about the numbers really changes as you grow. Oh, yeah. I think when I started uni and I started uni, oh, I don't know. So yeah, I might have had maybe like a few thousand subscribers at that time.

I think. And you decided like, and I guess the decision at this time, kind of we're talking sort of 2011-ish, wouldn't have been like, oh, I see an opportunity here to make money, presumably. The partner program either started existing then or like I knew that it existed then. Because this was also around the time when it was like Charlie McDonald, the first UK YouTuber to hit a million subscribers and like,

he was clearly making a living from it, but like it was still very rare at that point. Like you didn't do it with a plan to start making money. Um,

So I don't know. I do remember like first signing up for like AdSense and as a YouTube partner, but it taking forever to even hit the threshold where you like earn enough to like get a payout. But yeah, no, it wasn't like a money thing, but I did see a like, nobody is doing this in the UK. I could be that person. And like, no.

I did have an awareness at that point that it would make me stand out, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's like you found the sort of intersection of something that you enjoy talking about, something that you saw sort of a gap in the market for, and maybe a, maybe, maybe sort of hypothetically in the future, a sort of potential that this could be interesting further down the line. But you don't really know what it looks like then. And I imagine you wouldn't have imagined yourself writing books or doing a podcast. No. Yeah.

making a living out of being being a sex educator yeah it was very much like in those early days I was just riding the wave so I was just like oh this will be fun we can like make these sex ed videos and then um it was kind of more the the reaction to it being so positive and actually kind of being like I don't know drawing a lot more people in and and that kind of was like oh okay I think I've

I've hit on something here. Yeah. We're going to take a very quick break to introduce our sponsor for this episode. And that is Brilliant. I've been using Brilliant for the last two plus years. They're a fantastic platform for learning maths, science and computer science with engaging and interactive online courses. And the great thing about Brilliant is that they really teach stuff from a very first principles based approach. It's almost like the way that we were taught in

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It's also great for learning how to code which is an incredibly useful skill to have especially if you want to start a business and I attribute like 98% of my business success to the fact that I learned how to code when I was in secondary school. So if you want to check out the courses on math science and computer science then head over to brilliant.org/deepdive and the first 200 people to sign up with that link will get 20% off the annual premium subscription. So thank you Brilliant for sponsoring this episode. Why were you so okay with talking about sex? It's a pretty unusual thing to be very okay with. Well, so

Had quite an open household, like growing up. So like liberal parents, so that would have helped for sure. I have this like one memory from when I was about 12 that I'm like, is this why I'm the way I am? But also it could mean nothing, who knows? So I'm sure we'll talk about this at some point as well, but I've got ulcerative colitis and

which is a form of inflammatory bowel disease. It's an autoimmune disease. And I had a pretty bad flare up when I was 12 years old. And this was very kind of like early days, at least from my understanding in medicine of like, oh, maybe mental health and stress and stuff can be related to like gut issues that people have. And I remember my doctor saying to me like,

do you open up to your friends? Do you share secrets? Do you talk to your friends about how you're feeling and stuff? 'Cause also you're 12 and you're like on the brink of puberty, like going in high school and stuff. And I was like, no. 'Cause at that age, I just like bottled everything up, did not share anything. Like any crush that I had, I was like,

like this is mortifying, no one can know. And my doctor was like, maybe think about like sharing things and opening up and like, you know, cause that can help with like stress and stuff. And like, maybe there's a link between stress and like you having a flare up and things. And like, I think I just took those doctor's orders very literally. But that was obviously like when I was quite young. And so it was like a bit of a gradual thing. But I just remember like,

then around like 13, 14 years old and like having friends over after school and showing like the boys in my class how tampons and pads worked by like running them under like the water tap and being like, look how it expands. And that just being like something that I was like very like compelled to be like, the boys would be like, periods are like, what's a tampon? And I'd be like, well.

Just becoming a complete Hermione and just be like, let me show you. So I've always been like teaching my peers about these things as I've been learning them. That's so great. Like I was just thinking like, I think the first time I saw a tampon was when I was like 25 and working on obstetrics and gynecology for eight months. Wow.

And I just did not... And it was like, you know, we'd have... Because it was the kind of early pregnancy... You never saw like any of your mum's period products around the house? Wow. I mean, I saw that she would put those... Veet, is it? Like in the... I don't know. Isn't Veet a hair removal cream? Oh, maybe it's hair removal. There was this purple package of stuff that occasionally we'd have in like the Asda grocery thingy. Okay. And maybe they were some pads or something. I didn't really think anything of it. But then it was when, you know, we were...

kind of dealing with ladies who would have early pregnancy bleeding. And, you know, I remember my first weekend, one of them was like, oh, sorry, you know, I've run out of pads. Could you, you know, give me some? And I was like...

that's a very good question so i went to the nurse uh julie uh this lady's asking for more pads and she was like oh ali bless and she was like she showed me where they all are and she was like right here are the sizes this is the big one you know this is the maternity one this is a special one this is honestly why yeah this is honestly why i'm just like so passionate about like not having um not like separating like the genders when like doing sex ed and just being like

girls in one room boys in another because obviously also non-binary and trans people exist but then like if you're just going to be talking about periods to the girls like the boys will like need to be aware of this stuff you know like at some point even if they're not going to be an obs and gyne doctor like it's it's always like baffling yeah it was like the the sorts of questions I was asking like I think after my first week I was like I just sat down with the nurses I was like okay I have a bunch of basic questions

what is a normal amount of bleeding when you're having a period? And they're like, okay, like what is a bad amount of bleeding? I was like, okay, if someone is, I don't know, early pregnancy, like how much blood is too much? Because you just don't have any kind of conception of it at all. And I guess when you're bleeding, even a small amount of blood, like on the sheet looks like a blood bath. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they would come in and be like, oh, that's nothing. Yeah, because it might just, yeah, it's just like the tiniest amount, but like on a sheet. Yeah, it looks like, oh my God, like this is...

This is a nightmare. And the things we'd end up saying to the patients after a couple of days on the ward, it was like, you know, blood clots the size of a fist are concerning. Less than that is pretty normal. Don't worry about it too much. Blood clots the size of a fist would be concerning. If it feels like a tap that's turned on that just won't stop, that's bad. That's not normal. So please call an ambulance if that happens. That kind of thing.

Good to know. Just to like never know about this stuff. Okay, so you're kind of 19, 20-ish at this point. You start uni. You're like... The other weird thing about this is that...

I imagine most people in a position of like, I'm interested in this thing, would not then jump to let me teach other people about it because they would have a sense of, but I'm not an expert. I'm not a gynecologist. I don't know this, that and the other. Why would anyone listen to me? How could I possibly qualify to do this? I don't have a degree. All of that stuff. Honestly, I feel that more now than I did then. Oh, okay. And I always forget the name of it. You probably will know. What's that like? It's like a...

some sort of graph thing oh the dunning-kruger effect yes i think what happened to me was a hundred percent the dunning-kruger effect yeah so for anyone who doesn't know basically at the beginning you're like

you're getting to know a new subject matter and you're like, your confidence is super high, but your competence is actually really low. And then the more you gain competence, you actually lose all of that confidence because you suddenly start to realize how little you really do know. And then...

fighting through that and actually persevering through that is what then makes you an expert hopefully at the end I think I'm in the middle still somewhere very much but yeah no 100% it was just like a complete balls to the wall confidence so what sort of videos were you making back in the day like so it was actually with with a friend of mine because I was like oh it needs to be a guy in the video as well so that

I don't know, I just, for me, I was, I think maybe that was a little bit of me being like, I can't do this by myself. I need like another voice.

He was by no means an expert as well. He was just like my friend. He had good chemistry on camera, like good at hosting videos and stuff. And I wrote all of the videos. Yeah, so we did like a series of five or six videos together. And then like they just started doing really well and we weren't living in the same city. So we could only film together like when I was visiting London.

And so it just kind of like naturally happened that like I just carried on making my own videos about it as well. And so, yeah. So what sort of topics was it? I don't know. Like I think we started with contraception. We did stuff about puberty, virginity, body image. I don't know. I honestly haven't gone back and rewatched those. They're probably like so bad. Anatomy, we did just like...

- Literally just going through like-- - Yeah, and what was the response when you started doing this? - Just really positive. Just like loads of people being like, "Oh my God, thank you." Like, "I didn't know that," or, "This is so interesting," or like, "Nobody ever talks about this." Like, "You made me feel less alone," or, "You made me feel normal," or--

And then also obviously like lots of follow-up questions as well and stuff. Yeah. So that would have been sort of like seven, eight years ago then. So what happened to your kind of career kind of since then? Yeah. So I was doing YouTube just kind of like as a hobby and then it kind of became this part-time job whilst I was at uni. So I did... So I started...

making youtube videos before i went to uni so then spent that three years making videos and doing my degree although like was not consistent at all with the videos because

degree stuff just would take over. I honestly have no idea how like you or like other study tubers like did it where you're like, but I guess if you're making your channel about your studies, then it like makes it a bit easier. I was not. So, well, no, there was some crossovers actually because I did history and I did a lot of modules in my dissertation on sexual history. So I did kind of like try and like bring in some of that stuff that I was learning into my videos as well.

And then graduated and moved to London. At that stage, it was like, okay, this is a part-time job. I'm like every month or two, I'm traveling to London for like events, whether they be work stuff or social stuff with like all of these connections and people that I'm meeting. And I was earning some money from YouTube, but not like...

not a full-time thing at all but I was like I'll go to London get a part-time job and like see what I can make happen and yeah I worked part-time for just under a year actually I think it was like 10 or 11 months of doing YouTube still part-time until I got to the point where I was like okay I can

I can do this full time now. But as soon as I finished uni, it was like, right, one video a week. Let's go. Nice.

So what were you doing? What was your main gig, as it were? Yeah, so when I first moved to London, I got one of those jobs with a catering company where you just pick up shifts here and there, doing your thing. I think I've still got the bottle opener from that. Also, because I'm very short, you have to buy your own uniform and black trousers. I ended up, and I didn't know how to sew, and I was also crashing on family friends'

like spare rooms for a while before I found my own place.

And I was like, I need to turn up these trousers because they're like way too long for me. And I think someone on Twitter suggested a stapler. So that's what I did. You stapled your trousers. My trousers were stapled. Good challenge. Stapled together. It was great. But I only did that for a little while because then I got a job with this youth charity who I'd previously made some videos for, you know,

So I already had a relationship with them. I moved to London and they were like, "Hey, we are looking for like a video assistant basically." So they already had like a multimedia producer for a lot of the content that they produced. And then I came on board to kind of work with him

and write and host YouTube videos for them. And it was a youth charity. And so a lot of the videos that I wrote and hosted for them were about sex or about relationships, but then also were about like mental health, work, school, all of in that kind of realm of things. And then I worked for them for about 10, 11 months. Okay. Yeah. And so at the point where YouTube was able to give you a full-time income,

what was it like making that decision to be like hey i'm gonna do this internet thing yeah it was hard i like talked to a lot of people um because i was working for that charity two days a week and i was doing all my other youtube stuff and it was the thing that made me realize oh maybe it's time was because i needed those two days in terms of like to get all of my youtube work stuff done i was like

I'm like full, like I'm at capacity now with everything. 'Cause like a lot of the YouTube stuff just kept picking up and kept getting busier and everything. And I was like,

you know the charity job didn't exactly pay very well in terms of a day rate um and i was like i need i need this time back um to work on my own stuff yeah um yeah and just like thought about it and talked to people about it for okay a while and then and took the plunge i think it was i think i like handed in my notice

And then left and then went to VidCon and then came back and then it was like, let's go. Here we are. Were you concerned at all about the YouTube thing not being a quote real job? And what is your career going to look like 10 years down the line? You're still going to be making videos like all of those fears that people have as they switch from a quote proper job to a quote like not proper job. Yeah.

I don't know because I never, I don't really ever feel like I had a proper job because even what I was doing for that charity, like I was a freelancer and I was making YouTube videos but just for somebody else. Which if anything was proof very early days for me that like,

this is a skill that other people also want and will pay you for. But I think I have more of those fears about the longevity of it now than I did then. At the beginning, I was just like, I'm riding this wave. This is going well. Let's not freak out. Let's just keep going, build on this momentum. I'm riding this wave and I'm having a great time.

But also it was just me then, whereas now it's like, I rent a studio space, I have a team. There's definitely a lot more of the business element to it now as well. And maybe you can relate to this as well. And then also having a baby and at the beginning, I was in my early twenties, had no dependents.

So I was just kind of like, your early 20s is when you move to London and you take risks. That's what you're supposed to do, right? So it didn't fit.

I didn't feel any fear there because I was just like, if this all goes tits up, like that's normal. I'm 23. Like, you know what I mean? Like who cares? Whereas now it's like, oh, I'm about to turn 30. I'm about to have a baby. I have a mortgage. I have a team. I have a business that has a lot of overhead costs. So actually that's,

A lot more fears about the longevity now than then, for sure. Yeah, so on the point about your 20s being for experimentation, I think that itself is kind of a novel thing depending on, I guess...

For medicine in particular, your 20s are for setting yourself up for success. In banking and consulting and law, your 20s are like, hey, let's hustle, hustle, hustle. So that's when I'm 30, I'll have made partner at McKinsey or whatever people do. And a friend of mine who was also a medic in my year, who recently quit medicine to pursue a job in tech said,

put out a tweet that went viral the other day which was basically like you know when i left medicine at 26 i was really scared because for the last 10 years i had a very clear path and now it feels like all this uncertainty but then i realized actually my 20s are for experimentation that tweet went viral and people like was i think the the idea that you can actually just like screw around doing stuff in your 20s and it's actually okay yeah yeah it's actually fairly normal to a lot of people

- Yeah, I think, well, we put a lot of pressure on people to make a decision about the next 10 years of their life really early. And you'll know this, from doing medicine at uni, so at some point you decide you want to become a doctor. Okay, you have to do medicine at university. Okay, in order to get into uni to do medicine, I need these A levels. In order to get into college to do those A levels, I need these GCSEs. At what age are you making decision about what GCSEs you're doing? You're 14. You're 14 and you made like,

all of those decisions for the next 10 years of your life. Like we specialize real early in the UK in terms of like those decisions that we're making about our studies and our work and career and stuff. I didn't have that because I went the humanities route. But yeah, I do think that

there is a lot of pressure to like know what you wanna do. And then also like as a culture, we kind of idealize and like look up to people who are really successful very young. We're like, oh my God, look at what they've achieved and they're only 21. Like, isn't that incredible? But then you find yourself actually comparing yourself to a lot of these people who, you know, have had great success in whatever it is they're doing super young.

And we have this obsession with youth as well, I think. And I can't think of any like examples off the top of my head that I know are true, but I feel like, I feel like something like Margaret Atwood didn't start writing until she was in her forties or something like that, but maybe not her and maybe not that specific example, but like,

I think, yeah, there's, there's, you've got more time than you think. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bunch of examples in tech in particular that get, they get thrown around that. Yes, there are some, you know, 19 year olds find founding Stripe or Facebook or whatever, but actually the guy who founded LinkedIn was in his forties. Jeff Bezos was in his thirties when he started Amazon. Like there are people in their fifties starting these companies as well. And like, it's, it's not a race.

And, you know, this is one thing that I find a lot of people do in our YouTuber Academy, where especially if it's older people comparing themselves to the younger kids. And it's like if you're, you know, if you're in your 40s and you've got a family and a mortgage and a job, there's just no way you can give the amount of time to YouTube as like a 19 year old at uni studying science.

who has one lecture a week is just like banging out the content. But if you're over 60 and you're retired, maybe you've got loads of time to dedicate to YouTube. Like amazing. Chelsea Fagan, who's the CEO and co-founder of The Financial Diet. She like often talks about how

I think on her Instagram or like on social media in general, she basically only follows influencers who are over 50. Oh, interesting. Because she's just like, we're a youth obsessed culture. And for her, like she's in her early thirties and she just wants to see influencers

older women thriving because we also as a culture kind of like you know you're a woman and gets to a certain age and suddenly you become completely invisible to the world and so for her she like is actively seeking out these like positive examples of older women just like thriving and like doing their thing and i'm like i love that that was brilliant that's very cool yeah yeah i think like one of one of my um kind of fears about the future as it were is like

What am I going to be doing when I'm 40? Because back when I was big on the medicine thing, it was like, the answer is easy. I'm going to keep on doing the same thing. I honestly cannot see past April right now in terms of my life. Right, so there's a Twilight book behind you. So I need to bring that up because...

Are you a fan of "Twilight"? - Of course. - Right, so there's, I don't actually know if this happens in the book 'cause I've only, I've not read them in a while, but I recently rewatched all of the films. And there's that scene when Bella gets pregnant

and Alice, who's the one who has all of the visions and stuff just goes, "I can no longer see her future." That's how I feel. It's like, I used to plan like, I was like a five-year plan kind of guy. - Yeah, you were. I remember seeing one of your videos about two years ago. Like, here's my five-year plan. - Here's my five-year plan. - I was like, whoa, okay. - Yeah, I love that shit. - Yeah.

got pregnant and then it's like beyond the due date I'm like what is life it's just like I have no vision yeah I have no vision like I'm very excited for it but I'm like can't plan can't who knows yeah so I feel like Alice Cullen when Bella gets pregnant she's like I cannot see yeah so like pre pre-baby showing up how how were you thinking about like the longevity of your career and what you would be doing

x years down the line yeah i feel like i was always grappling with like these two um sides of myself one is the can i swear please fuck this i'm out like peace out i'm going off i'm living a quiet life being a public figure is not for me cannot handle this um

And just kind of being like, I've done my time as an internet person. Um, and then the other part of me that is just like so excited by sex and relationships and like, um, educating people and like talking about these topics and also so excited about the internet and YouTube and social media and like building a business and like, um,

expanding my team and doing exciting projects and just being like, oh, what are the possibilities? So like these two things I'm always like constantly battling with. And I feel sorry for my friends because sometimes they just get the, like, I can't handle it anymore. Like, I just want my partner to like keep getting promoted and like earn loads of money so I can become a housewife. And then the next thing that they know is they see me like advertising for a new job role. And they're like,

Hannah, like, didn't you want to quit a week ago? And I'm like, now I'm hiring somebody new. So yeah, that's something that I'm always like, I don't know, just like have this like inner tug of war going on. I'm currently in a good phase with it though, because I have just recently hired someone new. And so I'm in that like,

I don't know, just like the possibilities, isn't this great? And also like with the baby coming, it's very much kind of like, I'm trying to set my business up

in a way that actually allows me to step away from it a bit more and because I'm not going to be able to work full time like if we're just being realistic about it. What is it like being a kind of public figure internet celebrity type person specifically in the realm of sex and relationships?

Yeah, it's a weird one. One of the things that maybe, I don't know, like, depends on the day of what bothers me the most. When you are somebody who like, you know, you're saying I'm very open. And I talk about a lot of these kind of like taboo topics and stuff. And so a lot of the time, people like open up to you in return, which is an absolute like,

privileged because people are being vulnerable. But sometimes you don't have the emotional capacity to take on other people's emotional dumps sometimes. Then there's also the like,

having to be really clear about boundaries in terms of like, what is an okay question to ask me versus what is a like, you've overstepped the line. Like just because I shared information about this one thing doesn't entitle you to like make a comment about this thing or ask me a question about this other thing. People feel like they kind of, and I think this is also like being a woman on the internet thing as well. But like a woman who talks about sex on the internet kind of then just gets exacerbated a bit where just people are like,

feel very entitled to you and to your body and to like make comments on it. What does that look like?

I just can't really imagine like yeah I guess in the world of productivity YouTube it's a very different kind of you get no comments about your hair your beard you talk often talk about your like gym shark athlete yeah sometimes oh I think the biceps are looking good or oh I prefer only with or without a beard or keep the glasses on mate or yeah yeah and a lot of it is just like

either from just kind of like older creepy men or it has this tone of like, oh, this is like unsolicited advice or it's just like completely irrelevant, but I'm just gonna comment on your body. And I remember like, cause I was really open about the fact that me and my partner were trying to conceive for a while before we did get pregnant. And I remember saying, I was just like, I'm gonna share stuff when I'm ready because

So it's not gonna like these videos and these updates aren't gonna come out in real time. So in the meantime, I would like appreciate it if you didn't speculate.

- Yeah. - Like no comments being like, "Oh, are you pregnant? "Like you look a bit pregnant." Or like, "Oh, is that a bump?" Or things like that. 'Cause that can be really hard to read if you're trying to conceive and you're not pregnant, right? And also it's just weird. Like why do people feel like they can say that to random strangers on the internet? It's just weird.

But most of my audience are like super on it. I think also like being someone who talks about sex and relationships and like consent obviously being such a huge part of that,

having consensual interactions with your audience online where I say, this is a boundary of mine and them going, yep, got it, noted. So yeah, I do feel like I'm very lucky in that sense because me and my audience are so used to having conversations about consent that when it comes up in terms of our relationship, they're very respectful and just like get it. But then you do get these people who just come in from the side sometimes and they're like...

But then it's quite nice because then you see like clearly some like more regular members of my audience like swooping in and being like, well, actually, excuse me, that's not very nice. Like, don't say that. Yeah, so that's kind of like one area of it. And then another is just like the constant anxiety and constant like pressure of like, am I saying the right thing? Am I good enough? And this kind of like,

And I mean good enough in terms of like your intrinsic like morality as a person. 'Cause when you're talking about a lot of these issues, like they're part of like social justice and they tie into so many different aspects of people's life, whether that's like gender, sexuality, race, class, like disability, like all of these things. And I don't know everything about everything.

And so there is a lot of like, am I saying the right thing? Like, and I do think that that comes from a good place and like more people should maybe be a bit more on it with like the language that they use and like understanding all of these different perspectives. But then I think there's a line where it actually is like,

where you're just like, you're absolutely exhausted by it and you're like, you're trying to, you're trying to predict other people's reactions to things before they've happened and you're like losing sleep over people's reactions to things before they've happened and just like,

Sometimes a lot of it comes down to like self-censorship as well because you're just like it's not even worth me saying that. What's an example? I don't even know if I've got like examples off the top of my head. Are we talking like I said women in that video rather than people with uteruses? Yeah, well, that's something that like I have learned and that comes quite naturally to me now. But I don't know. I think...

I don't know it's honestly hard to like even think of examples off the top of my head but like I want to set a good example and I think sometimes there's that like you know the classic like with great power comes great responsibility and I think sometimes you get you hit a point where you're just like this responsibility is crushing me and actually like I can't handle it um

And yeah, it's an interesting one. Yeah, so it sounds like kind of one major kind of strand of concerns is response from the audience. But even if, for example, you turned comments off or just chose not to look at comments or anything like that, you still got this sort of crushing weight of responsibility because the area that you're talking about, it's non-trivial. It's like a core part of loads of people's lives. And I genuinely take it so seriously because I know...

like how important and how impactful these like subject matters are on people's lives. I do like to

very much like one of the things I say in a lot of my videos is how like we're all about tonal shifts here so we can get like really quite deep and talk about something that's really quite heavy and serious. And then like, I also will make like jokes about things or like talk about something that's quite lighthearted, but still about like sex and relationships and stuff because I think that's really important to kind of like have that balance with like the joy and also the like,

this is fucked up and we need to like change the world um but i like to kind of i don't know voice that out loud of just like i'm like i'm acknowledging that i'm doing a tonal shift here rather than just doing it and it kind of like i don't know people just kind of being like what just happened okay so if you're talking about something serious and heavy and then you're segwaying into something a bit more light-hearted

that segue can seem jarring. Yeah. And so I want to kind of be like, I'm aware that this is a tonal shift. I don't know. I feel like so much of this is like so nuanced and it's like,

you have to like experience a lot of it to be like, okay, I get it. I get like a lot of the pressures there. And I think it's like a lot of being a woman on the internet, but then also like if you're in the like social justice space as well, there's a lot of just like worrying about

Oh, I have to make a comment on everything, which is something that I've very much been able to let go of. Like there was a time when I would get messages from a lot of people being like, why aren't you talking about this thing? Why aren't you talking about this thing? Why aren't you saying something about this thing that's just happened? And I'm like, I'm not a news outlet. Yeah, so it's navigating a lot of these things, but they're just kind of like,

It's all like, it drips in. That's the thing. It's always like small little things, but constantly. There are a lot of very good causes out there in the world. And each of those, and there are a lot of people out there in the world, and there is not a clear mapping as to, you know, all of the people care about this one cause. And for the people that care about

their their particular cause like one to three causes those are like absolutely huge deals and there's nothing more important than climate change or than animal rights or than Israel versus Palatine or then Yemen war or whatever and so when something comes up that hits that particular thing other people in the world would accept that obviously this is an issue but it's not one of the core issues that I spend large amounts of my time thinking about and so when it like you know for me

I'm not a political or human rights commentator. And so when people are like, your silence on the Kashmir issue is deafening. No one needs to hear Ali Abdaal's opinion on that. I do not need to opine about things that I literally have no knowledge of. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I will look to sources that are a bit more... That's not going to do anyone any good. But yeah, you can't say something about everything. Yeah. And yeah, I just kind of like...

I've got the things that I talk about and even within my subject matter, I also just like can't know everything that's going on. And then also like my position, like as a, like a white cis straight woman as well. Like sometimes it's like not for me to be the spokesperson on certain topics or issues. That's one of the things that I love about like having a podcast as well. It just means that I can be like,

hey, you talk about this thing. Like let me- Yeah, just like asking questions to someone who- Yeah, let me share my platform so you can talk about your experiences and stuff, yeah. Changing gears a bit. What do you, like, I just have so many questions about the sex relationship stuff. Um,

And I imagine, for example, sex education in the UK, I would hope is better than it was 10 years ago. What are the kind of core issues that you see with how young people are educated or otherwise about sex and relationships? Ooh.

Okay, so that's a bit tricky because I mostly focus on like adult sex education, but I can give it a shot. Yeah, it probably is better. It also is like a school to school thing. But in the last couple of years, relationships and sex education has become compulsory in schools in England and Wales, I believe. So that's a thing. However, that's mostly come into effect recently.

during this time of pandemic. So it's basically just like something else for teachers and schools to tick off their already massive list of things that they have to do on top of then like dealing with, you know, doing like online classes and stuff. So it's not like being the best time for schools and to like be a teacher at the moment. And even without a pandemic,

It's all well and good having like relationships and sex education being compulsory. But then if you're not like

giving schools more funding and also like training teachers in like how to talk about these things because teachers are people too. And often they're like in their early twenties and also will not have had good sex education. So like, you know, you've got to train the people who are going to be talking to young people about these things. So that's, that's my whole spiel about

And so I think what I don't, yeah, it's tricky in terms of like the tough things that young people are dealing with. I'm not entirely sure of like the current state of sex ed in schools, but if it's anything like mine was, it's still very much like a...

preventative kind of approach. - Okay, as in? - So it's like how to not get pregnant, how to not get STIs, how to not get raped, like all of those kinds of things, rather than like how to have a healthy relationship, how to, you know, like how to,

figure out like how to like find your own pleasure and how to enjoy sex, how to enjoy relationships, how to communicate about all of these different things. And then also the how to get pregnant if you eventually want to get pregnant because school led me to believe that it would be

Easy. Not the case. Not the case for me anyway. I understand why they like kind of do that like fear mongering thing because like especially when you're younger you're like super fertile. So and you know it could just it only takes one sperm but also like. Yeah.

But also, you know, it could also take millions until you get that one. Until you get the perfect one, yeah. Yeah, as you were saying that, it kind of reminds me of the shift that kind of happened in psychology as well. Oh, yeah, from like treating like...

disease to kind of like positive psychology it was like how to live a happier life and how to how to take care of your mental health rather than okay now you've got depression let's figure out what ssri works yeah that kind of thing yeah is it i guess it's such a big topic area how do you even begin to go about like i suppose if you like talking talking about sex and relationships stuff is sort of like one one issue at a time

Or like... It's so hard to do one issue at a time because they all just kind of like... Yeah, they all connect with each other. And so, I mean, for the sake of YouTube and like making, you know, like packaging up a video in a way that is like YouTube algorithm friendly, like you kind of... You do have to kind of, I don't know, figure out what your angle is going to be. But if you're like...

you know, if for my case where I'm like making so many videos and making so many podcast episodes, it will be like, oh, this thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. We went into more detail about that in that podcast episode or like in that YouTube video, like we went through that. So I don't like, so you're just constantly like referencing all of these other things that you've made because you're just building this massive library, um, of information. Um,

But yeah, on the school thing again though. So I interviewed someone for the podcast who works for Brooke, who I'm ambassador for. They're a young person's sexual health charity. And we talked about the new guidance as it was coming in. And she was like, oh yeah, I read through it all and I did like a, you know, like, you know,

Command F or like Control F, like to search for like certain words. The word pleasure was not in there at all. And then one of the other big issues is things like LGBTQ plus inclusion. So it's like, it's in the guidance that your curriculum has to be LGBTQ plus.

but then it's also very open. It's just very vague and like open to interpretation because like faith schools can kind of do what they want. And then also it's like, does it have to be inclusive in terms of like you do one class on LGBTQ plus people exist or as it should be done where it's like integrated in every single lesson that you do and with all of the topics that you talk about, it's all inclusive.

LGBT inclusive, you know, it's so, yeah. Yeah. I guess it's, it's hard enough for a teacher in their early twenties to talk about the basics. And then when you add in the

kind of complicating factor as it were of LGBTQ+ on all of the things, you then end up with this kind of very nuanced, almost mess of stuff where with someone who's, I don't know, a history graduate who's never really had sex education before in their life, it's like, how do I deal with this?

for like, you know, teenagers that are automatically not an ideal target audience. And we all have our own baggage. So like teachers have their own ideas and values and beliefs about sex. They also probably, they might even be holding onto some misinformation that they've learned. Like, and a lot of that like comes from

just like how the mainstream media talks about sex as well. Like so much, that is where we get so much of our education from when we're not actually like being taught about it in like a structured environment. And so like, and then also like loads of people just feel awkward talking about sex. And so like, then you get people

who don't feel comfortable talking about sex, don't know how to talk about sex. And then suddenly like a 14 year old is asking them like, miss what's a blow job? And they're like, because a lot of it is not just about what you're teaching, but like how you're teaching. Like, are you visibly uncomfortable when you're delivering this like sex ed lesson? Are you...

Yeah, can the young people pick up on the fact that like, yeah, are you like, are you giving off vibes that this is not something that you're supposed to be talking about? Are you giving off, even if you don't say sex is shameful, are you giving off these vibes that you might think that because you're like feeling awkward about talking about sex to some teenagers? Yeah.

So yeah, it's tricky because you've got to, we're all products of our own environment. And so like, and one of the things that I know from like doing sex education and stuff is that like you as the educator also have to like unlearn like all of your own shit. Yeah.

How do you think about how religion comes into the mix when sex education is involved? It's just like a broad. This one's really tricky for me because I'm a Jewish atheist myself. Okay.

Which basically, I'm culturally Jewish, but I don't have faith and I don't believe in God. Yeah, very much an atheist. I struggle when it comes to like, well, these are my religious beliefs. So I'm going to pull my kid out of this class because it goes against my religion or like,

Oh, is that a thing parents do? Yeah. There was like a massive thing in the news like last year or the year before. Honestly, I don't know what time is anymore. Yeah, 2019, 2020. Yeah. It could have honestly been 2019, but I'm like last year, right? There was a school in Birmingham, a primary school, and they had a program called No Outsiders.

And I hope I'm getting this right. Where like one of the teachers basically, it was just like this, I think they read lots of different books and it was all about just like, it wasn't just about like sex and relationship stuff, but it was like about race and religion and like, yeah.

different like family structures and things. And so like, you know, no outsiders. It was about like understanding different people and their backgrounds and stuff. And there were

huge protests. Like a lot of the parents like pulled their kids out of this class. And then there were loads of protests like outside of the school and lots of demands for the teacher to resign or be fired. Like, yeah, it was, it was a big thing. And a lot of it because there were like LGBT parents like in these kids'

like illustrated books or something or like, yeah. I really, like I struggle with it, but I'm also coming from a very privileged place where I don't have to deal with that on a personal level because like I don't have any close family who are like super religious and maybe have like homophobic or transphobic views because of that. But I know that that's a very real thing that a lot of people deal with. And I just, a line that I just really wanna draw is just like,

like if being like queer goes against your religion, like you don't have any right to kind of like make your kids feel like shit because of that. Like it can be so damaging to young people to grow up believing that there is something wrong about them, that there is something sinful about them.

that if they believe in God, that God doesn't love them because of who they're attracted to. Like, oh, it makes, yeah, it makes me really angry and sad. But also as someone who's not religious and hasn't had to like deal with that personally, I maybe don't quite have the sensitivity to be the person to like talk about that. Because I think I can sometimes just be like,

like get quite angry about it but when it comes to like people that you love and family members it is a lot more nuanced than that whilst I just I'm very adamant that like you know don't

kick your kids out if they're queer, like LGBT, like young, like young LGBT homelessness is such a massive issue because these kids have been like kicked out by their parents, um, because they're queer, cause they're trans or whatever. Um, and I'm just like, that is horrific. And then if someone's like, well, it's my religion, I'm like, not an excuse. Yeah.

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. What's the consensus on things like homosexuality, things like being trans in terms of nature versus nurture? Like, have you interviewed someone on the podcast who's talked about this stuff? Okay, so this is an interesting one, because I recently watched this very interesting TED talk. Because so basically, you hear the like, born this way argument. Yeah.

I was born this way. There's nothing I can do about it. Yeah, yeah. And I think that has become a very like strong and compelling argument for a lot of people. I'm totally going to butcher this. So I very much believe that...

are probably more on the like the nature side like yeah people just like they have their gender they have their sexual orientation and some people are gay some people are trans like that's it right um

oh, what did this TED talk say? It was really interesting because it definitely like shifted a lot of my perspective on the born this way argument because you also see a lot of examples of sexual fluidity, right? And gender fluidity and all of these things. So the born this way argument is like a,

well, they were born this way, so it's not their fault. So we shouldn't punish people for something that's not their fault. But then that can kind of be weaponized occasionally

against the queer community when you have people who maybe like actually come out later in life or their sexuality or their gender genuinely changes because we need to be able to like make room for those experiences too and then that kind of like pierces a slight hole in the born this way thing and then like

homophobes and transphobes can use that and be like, well, they weren't born this way. They're making a choice. And like, yeah, it basically just sexuality and gender and all these things are just like so much more expansive and nuanced than the mainstream like would lead us to believe. And I think that's brilliant. And I think by like embracing that,

just like how vast it is and just being like really curious about that and just being like, oh, you were a lesbian for 20 years and now you're something else. Like, cool. Rather than being like, oh, but does that mean that then other lesbians are lying about their sexuality? Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. There's a lot of moralizing around all of this stuff. Yeah. That's, and everyone has some kind of like, some kind of view of,

uh and it's just so hard to actually kind of talk about this or i think like understand it um because it just seems like the more you uncover the more layers of the onion there are to peel yeah and i'm very excited by that obviously because this is like the area that i've like dedicated like my my life so far uh to

But I understand that can be quite scary for some people because they're like, aren't there just like straight people and gay people and then maybe a few bisexuals like, and then

And then that's kind of like it. And then anything that then suddenly kind of like starts to break down that worldview or challenge it in any way, it's just like completely overwhelming. And like as human beings, we love our categories. We love being able to put people in like nice, neat little boxes because we're like, this is how I make sense of the world. But I quite enjoy the like...

the world doesn't make sense. Kind of just like falling into that and just kind of letting it wash over you a bit. And I think it's so like, especially with like trans issues and I just want to be like super clear that obviously like I'm a cis person talking about this. But I think for some people it can be fairly easy to be like, okay, I understand that like binary trans people

like trans men and trans women, right? People who have transitioned, but then like non-binary people suddenly like just throw a spanner in the works for their, in their brain. It's just like, I don't understand. And that's because gender is just such a, like such an ingrained and like rigid thing in our society. So many, so many ways of us understanding the world are of understanding, um,

things about like men and women, right? And I hear a lot of things from cis people saying like, I just don't get how somebody could not feel like a man or a woman. Or I just don't get how somebody could feel like a man and a woman. And do you know what? As a cis person, as somebody who is like,

I identify with womanhood, like that makes sense to me. Like the gender of woman, I'm like, yeah, cool. Yeah, that works for me, right? I also, I'm like,

"How could anyone identify as a man?" You know, like, what's that about? But then, but more so with like non-binary, like even I'm like, I can't understand what that feels like. But actually that doesn't matter. The fact that you don't get it doesn't mean, doesn't take away from the fact that non-binary people exist. They absolutely deserve our respect. They deserve rights. They deserve access to healthcare. Same obviously with binary trans people.

And actually like you not getting it, me maybe sometimes not getting it, doesn't matter. Yeah, I think it's a lot of the same stuff when the Black Lives Matter was trending a lot a couple of years ago. And it seemed like everyone on the internet was reading all the same books where they were talking about how kind of you might not appreciate that

exists if you have never experienced it. But the fact that you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And the fact that you can't imagine what it's like for someone to be overtly or covertly mean to someone because of their race, that doesn't

Well, that's kind of irrelevant. We should listen to the lived experiences of the people who are actually going through it and try to understand what's going on there. Yeah, because with all of these different issues, like if you're not personally impacted by them, if you're constantly trying to have that argument instead, then you're just going to be like,

stuck in this like, well, justify your existence to me, justify your oppression to me, rather than actually being like, right, okay, no, I believe you. Right, how can I help? Like, let's move on. Like, what comes next? What do we need to do to make the world a better and safer place for you? Instead of worrying in this kind of like,

of like, is it nature or nurture or like, does racism exist? Spoiler alert, yes, it does. And like, yeah, I think we can kind of get stuck there. And like, maybe there's a time and a place for those kind of more like theoretical discussions. But when we're talking about people's lived experiences and like if we actually want to make life better for them, then I think we just need to kind of like...

Be like, right, cool, got it. Yeah. Let's move on. Let's crack on. Nice. You talk a lot about sex and relationships. We've talked about the whole like creator-y stuff. We talked a bit about the sex stuff. Yep. What, I wonder, so switching to the relationships angle. Broadly.

What are the things that make for a good romantic relationship? And what do you see in your audience and in people that you speak to about the stuff that people commonly get wrong about the whole relationship stuff? Oh my goodness. I feel like there are just so many things because there's like so many like assumptions and tropes and like ideas we have about relationships from like romantic movies and stuff.

But we're like, when we then find ourselves in a serious romantic relationship, we're just like, wait, it's not like in the movie. It's like, what's going on? So what are the key differences of movie versus IRL? So I think one thing, one myth that I've always enjoyed busting is that love does not conquer all. Okay. So I think...

we have this like romantic notion that love conquers all. If two people like truly love each other, they totally are in love, like respect each other, like their like interpersonal relationship is just magnificent, right? That whatever hardships are thrown at them throughout their life, their love will be able to see them through and they will be able to like stay a couple and stay in love and stay together throughout it. I disagree. - Okay.

I disagree. I think there are a lot of just like practical life factors that however unromantic it sounds can contribute to a relationship working out or a relationship ending. And that could be things like distance, could be things like work, could be things like your belief systems and values, could be things like

sickness and health. It could be financial. People often forget to talk about money in relationships and that can cause huge rifts

Love does not conquer your bank account, unfortunately. Yeah, that's one of the big things for me is that like, whilst it's really nice to think about love in that way and like it can help, sure. If you two are really into each other, like it can help because that gives you like the motivation to be like, is this something that we can work through? But ultimately like love is not the same thing as compatibility, right?

And I think compatibility is something that we have to get like really honest with ourselves about in terms of like, are we actually a good match? And I guess that comes from actually just talking about it. From talking about it, but also just like from knowing yourself, from lived experience, from just like, yeah, really getting to know yourself and the other person and having experiences together instead of...

sometimes just talking about hypothetically having experiences together. - Like going on holiday together and things like that? - That could be a huge one. Like you might really love someone and it turns out that you can't live together. But there are relationships living apart together.

Where like two people are completely in love and they managed to find like a structure and a system that works for them where they don't actually live together, but they're in like a very loving long-term relationship. That's maybe like one of the other things is that like we have this idea of this opportunity.

I think there's a book or maybe it's a blog post, I don't know, but maybe it's a book that I haven't read, but I just like hear a lot of people talking about, which is like called riding the relationship escalator or something where it's just like you start dating someone, you get on the relationship escalator together and then you're just riding it. Like you're not actually in control of it.

Is it escalator or elevator? Who knows? But the idea is the same. It's just like, there are these like clear relationship stages that our culture and media and tradition and even like our politics as well in terms of like rights and benefits and stuff that you get from hitting certain life stages. Yeah, so like sometimes you might be on that path

um because maybe you think that that's what you want but actually like have you thought about what it is that actually you want and what kind of lifestyle would suit you um or you or you just kind of like doing these things because you're just like well that's what you do when you're in a relationship that's what you're supposed to do in life like you date for this many months and then you move in together at this time and then you get married and then you have a baby and like

I'm saying all this as somebody who has very much like kind of followed that trajectory, but me and my partner along the way, like every single stage, we're like having these really deep conversations about like,

where is this desire for us to do this together coming from? Like, is this something that we just feel like we should be doing because that's the next logical step of our relationship and that's just what people do? Or is this something that we as individuals, but also as a unit, like, is this something that's important to us? And like, along the way, just like every single thing, just being like,

Is this something we want to do? And actually drilling down to like, why? And that's something that you say a lot. And I think a lot of your videos is just being like, ask yourself why? Ask yourself why again? Ask yourself why again? And that like, doesn't just apply to like, work goal setting, but like personal relationship goal setting as well, for sure. Yeah, like, why do I actually want this thing? Yeah, and there will be an element of like,

Oh, well, it'll make my parents happy, right? And you can choose to listen to that. But you could also choose to ignore it if it's going to make you miserable, right? Yeah, one of my big whys for the whole relationship thing is I often, I've heard a bunch of studies referenced rather than kind of read them in their original state. They basically say that your happiness in life basically like correlates quite highly with the strength of your kind of primary relationship.

Have you come across this stuff? Like, is that like a thing? Yeah, again, I think it's something that I've like seen referenced here and there. But yeah, I think this is something that, again, like similar to you, I think I've just like come across it being referenced. But yes, like your...

and your satisfaction within that primary relationship has a massive impact on your overall life satisfaction. That makes perfect sense to me. I don't know whether those things are talking about like romantic relationships, 'cause I hear primary relationship and I'm like, well, what if your primary relationship in your life is with a friend or with a family member or something? But I think that it would still kind of like hold true that premise of like,

do you have like a person or do you have like your people? Because that can absolutely impact your life satisfaction. And again, there's some other studies that I've seen like referenced and stuff, which...

It's like people with kids, their general life, their overall life satisfaction goes down, which is so interesting to me because it's like the same people, like when interviewed, it will be like, oh, my kids are the best thing that's ever happened to me and they bring me so much joy. But then when they're like...

they're surveyed. Yeah, if you're surveyed on a day-to-day happiness. Yeah, then actually their overall life satisfaction is actually lower than people without kids. So there is like, I don't know, this cognitive dissonance for people with kids where it's like, you're going to be less happy, but also they're the thing that brings you the most joy in life. Yeah. So it's like...

it's an interesting one i remember like reading something about that when dan and i were like trying and i was like you ready for our life satisfaction to go down um other things to be aware of especially if you're like a um if you are a straight woman there's also stuff and again like i cannot reference the actual like studies and stuff but i um

It's just things that I hear referenced and I think maybe there's some of it in the book of Invisible Women. When a man and a woman marry each other, the man's life expectancy goes up and I think his happiness goes up and a woman's life expectancy goes down. And yeah, and you're just like, ha! Interesting. Literally marrying men is killing us.

I'm like, great. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. But with things like that though, so that's all like very hypothetical and like isn't necessarily going to, you're not necessarily gonna like notice that in your actual interpersonal relationships. For me as somebody who like finds learning about these things interesting, it's always something that I bring up with my partner. I'm just like, did you know? Yeah.

just so you know, like kind of thing. But obviously if that's not something that you would directly talk about in your relationship, it's still, I think, especially if you are in like a cis heterosexual relationship as well, just

For me, it's really important being very aware of gender roles. And like, I'm someone who considers myself like quite aware of these things. And yet in my life, notice myself being

And like me and my partner, like slipping into more like traditional gender roles and having to be like, hang on, hang on. Did we choose this? Or is this something that we're just like falling into because it's the examples that we've seen? It's because of like how we've been raised. It's because of just like...

how we assume that we're supposed to act. Because like, when you think about little kids, right, and the way that they behave, they're just mimicking adult behavior, right? And I feel like that we're doing that throughout entire lives. Like, I'm someone who's almost turning 30, who's pregnant and about to have a kid. How do I act? I don't, I'm just going to mimic everything

what I've seen in movies. I'm going to mimic other pregnant people that I've seen. I'm going to mimic other people in their 30s. Like, that's what I'm doing. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just pretending and copying other people, right? For me, it's about like, especially with the gender stuff in our relationship, it's like, okay, are we just copying other couples? Are we just copying what we've seen? Are we just playing house? Do you know what I mean? Or is this actually...

what we want, is this actually playing into our strengths and weaknesses as individuals and how we can best come together to support one another. You proposed to Dan. Yes. That's, again, kind of unusual. Yeah, a bit unusual. What was the story there? It was a weird one because we'd actually like,

already talked about getting married and basically like agreed to get married. But I just like wanted to do a proposal as well. Cause like it was a bit of a weird one, basically like we were living together. We knew at some point we wanted to like have kids. That was really important to both of us. I cared less about getting married, but for him he wanted to be married before having kids. Like he was just a bit more traditional in that sense.

And then because of my colitis and stuff, I had an appointment with my gastro consultant and basically just kind of like learned about the fact that because, so I had my colon removed and I have a rectal stump. This is like, what's this got to do with marriage and kids, Hannah? Well...

And I was told basically like, I'm gonna have to have like yearly flexible sigmoidoscopies to take a look and make sure and take biopsies and just like check for inflammation but also check for like precancerous cells and stuff.

And the doctor's just like, you can't have your rectal stump forever because your chances of rectal cancer like increase like as the years go on. So I will have to have surgery at some point to have it removed. And I'm like, okay, fine. And then also if they go in and the biopsies come back looking a bit scary, then they'll just like wipe it out straight away or rip it out straight away even.

But then what they said was, do you want kids because you will need to complete your family. Is this something that doctors are taught to say because all of the doctors, the languages complete your family? Yes. Yeah. It's a very standard phrase. Wow. Yeah. I was like, what? Yeah. So basically it's just like the kind of surgery that I would need to have my rectal stump removed would dramatically decrease my fertility. So then I was told,

hey, if you want to have kids, like, get a move on. So yeah, so then I rang Dan, and I was just like, this is what the doctor said. So like, we doing this? And it was like, yep, okay, we're doing this. And so then we were like, okay, and my parents were going to be traveling the following year, 2020. Obviously, they ended up coming home a bit earlier. But we talked

talked to them and I was like, mom, dad, when are you going to be back in the country? And then we were like, okay, great. We'll get married then. And then I think after that conversation, I then proposed. So it was like, okay, we're getting married. And then I was like, I still did a proposal because I was like,

And then I wanted a ring as well. But the ring that I, my engagement ring is actually one that I've had since I was 18 that was like an heirloom from my granny. And so I said to Dan, I was like, I still expect a proposal back before we actually get married. And he got it in there, like within a few months of us getting married. But I was like, but I've already got the ring. Like you don't have to worry about a ring. Like this is the ring I have. It seems like the two of you, at least from what I see in the videos and kind of hearing you talk like this, are a bit like rogue in the way that you do stuff. Come

But it's interesting that you say that because in so many other ways, we're so conventional. We're just like a cis straight couple who started dating, moved in together, got married and are now having a baby. That's a good point. And we're monogamous, right? Like so much of like our relationship, but maybe like as a sex educator and like the kinds of relationships

that I hear and like people in my like sex positive network and stuff have vastly different kinds of relationship structures and styles. I'm like, compared to that, I'm like, oh, we're like so vanilla and so conventional. But then like, yeah, when you compare us maybe to like

mainstream or whatever, like whatever the dominant kind of like narrative about relationships, then yeah, maybe we do things like slightly differently.

But I'm like, by no means is this the most radical thing. What's your take on the whole idea that, you know, you've got this honeymoon period, which some people say lasts from anywhere from for a few months to a couple of years. And at that point, the passionate love disappears and it gets replaced with compassionate love, which is more of a slow burn that happens over time. I've seen like a sort of bro science about this. Is that legit? Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah. And I think like it's not something to be afraid of. Like you're in like polyamorous circles. They use this language called new relationship energy. Oh, okay. Like NRE. There's lots of initialisms. Right. Like vocabulary for things in polyamory, which I love. Yeah.

Yeah, so what that is at the beginning is like this new relationship energy. And the thing that I always try and...

remember and to tell people as well is that like that initial energy that passion that honeymoon period like it's not a bad thing that it will end because people think like oh that you know like after that six months to two years or whatever then like then your relationship is stale and boring and i'm like no like everything in life has phases yeah and and it's about just like

and embracing each phase for what it is. 'Cause if you're constantly longing for something that was in the past or you're constantly longing for like the next thing that's going to happen, then you're gonna be really dissatisfied with what you have. - Yeah.

And yeah, for me, it's just all about like just completely accepting that like there's going to be lots of things that are out of your control as well. The kind of like timelines for different relationships are just going to be so different. Other things can impact your relationship. Like I when I got really ill and was in hospital for a month, that was after Dan and I had been dating for a year. And so obviously our relationship like dramatically changed after that, like as it as it would like going through something like that.

Well, it was just like, you know, we'd been going out for a year and we, you know, we're in love and honeymoon period or like whatever at that point. And then suddenly like I got sick, me getting sick meant that our parents were meeting, but without us like being there. So our lives just got like intertwined a lot more. I think it just kind of like made things a lot more serious because like,

when you're in your mid-20s, like sitting by the hospital bed of your girlfriend who is like really sick and you don't know if she's going to get better, like that's not a normal experience for a couple in their early mid-20s. And then like once I was recovering and like back home and stuff, it was like, well, he's like my partner, but he's also kind of like my carer like for this time as well. Yeah, and I think it just does a lot of like,

oh, you stuck around, you know? So like, you know, you're a good one. Yeah, so I don't know if like, who knows how our relationship would have gone if that had never happened. Like, you just don't know. And like, there's all sorts of stuff that can like just be thrown your way at a relationship and you just kind of, and just a lot of it is just like rolling with the punches and just being like, how do you cope with this? How do you deal with this as a couple? Yeah.

And that can kind of like show a lot of people's character, I guess. And yeah, all of these things are just different phases.

Like I can't go back to a time where I didn't have like a massive scar and a stoma bag. Like that doesn't exist. Like, you know, you can't go back to a time when you have like new relationship energy. There are ways though, because like, you know, if you're into certain things, there are like ways that you can try and like manufacture it.

which can be quite fun because you have that like, Esther Perel is a really great person to listen to on like long-term relationships and desire and stuff. She's amazing. And she talks a lot about this, like how desire thrives in,

um situations of risk taking and uncertainty and and all of that and those things do not lend themselves well to feeling like you're in a secure and stable loving relationship so it's like how do you balance that novelty with the like with the familiarity which is also very healthy and can be good for long-term relationships and so it's about like

How do you create situations of novelty? And I think the pandemic's been hard for a lot of people. Dan and I, just like every day is the same. It's just like, it's really difficult to create novel experiences together when it's just the two of us just like hanging out in the house the entire time. Yeah. Phases and just like accepting them. Just accept them. It's fine. What are some high ROI things that sort of like communication wise or anything that you can do in a couple episodes

that would potentially help mitigate against some of the issues that people have kind of regarding communication and things like that. I don't know if that question makes sense, made sense. Yeah, I think I know what you're getting at. So I think like understanding that like you're not going to be perfect at communication and like fumbling your way through bad communication, I think is better than like not communicating at all. But there's like lots of little things that you can do to make people

kind of like saying the more difficult things easier.

I've learned the hard way that if you don't bring these things up, they will just simmer and they will become resentment and anger. And then they are just going to come out completely in an uncontrolled way. And what you want is to be able to like say these things in a very controlled scenario. So you can actually have like a productive conversation about these things. But like, for instance, if being in the same room is really difficult when having that conversation, like I don't necessarily believe in like

the hierarchy of like communication, like,

like face to face is best. I'm like, if you're really struggling to say that thing face to face, then maybe write it down or text them or like a phone call or something. Like as long as like that message is getting across. I think if you are having no face to face interaction in your relationship, then work on that because there is a lot that you can gather from those interactions. But like,

things that I love doing is like if you're going for a walk together, you can always, I always find like you can have like quite deep conversations when you're going for a walk because you're not looking at each other. You're like, you're like looking ahead. Anything that kind of like gives you something else to focus on as well. Sometimes, uh,

if you're like sitting together but like back to back and talking is really nice because you have that contact point between you so there's that closeness and that physicality there but you're just talking at a wall and for some people that can be like a lot easier to then like say some of the harder things um but you you have that comfort of like still being able to like feel

their presence, um, there. And then I think like just one of my favorite things in terms of communication relationships is like relationship audits and check-ins, um, which I think was maybe what you were getting at. And I, I love these because I, I just think they're so important. Like if it's something that you do like once a year where you, you, um, make it like a

a fun thing you make it like a date night right so it feels it doesn't feel threatening it doesn't feel like something that you have to be worried about in the lead up to it's actually something that you're like looking forward to because it's like oh we're gonna go to this fancy place for dinner and then we're gonna do our relationship audit or like we're gonna go um to this gig and then like go to our favorite pub and do our relationship do you know what i mean like yeah like

It doesn't have to be a like, right, laptop's out, let's sit at the kitchen table. And like, if you make a, like whatever works for you in terms of like what puts you in a open, calm, relaxed mood, because you don't want to be doing your relationship audit when you're like,

on edge, right? You want to like, you want to be setting yourself up for success in terms of like the context that you create and the environment that you're in. Yeah. And like asking each other, like, so how's the last year been for you? Like,

What were your highlights in terms of the relationship? What were your lowlights? Is there anything that you're interested in working on next year for us together or for me or for you as an individual? Like getting all of that out there. And like, you know, if you've had like a good evening, if you've had like a lovely time together, then that...

kind of interaction can like, can be really playful and can be really like lovely. - Yeah, yeah. So that's something that me and my girlfriend do on a sort of every three weeks or so, like there's a bit of a relationship review. We have like a notion template, which is convenient because you can just look at it on the phone and be like, all right, should we do a relationship reviews? - Love it. - Just like 12 questions that we just kind of go through. - What kind of questions do you ask? - Oh, I'll give you a sample with my phone.

Let's go. Let's go. You can review these questions. Maybe I'll steal some of them. No, mine and Dan's last relationship audit was like, I don't know, maybe like a walk on New Year's Day, just being like, how's it been for you? Yep, good. Any notes? Nice, any notes. That's a good one. No, we've not done like a proper serious one with actual like listed out questions. I think because we're like...

just naturally talking about our relationship a lot because we're about to become parents it just like it just comes up quite a lot yeah it comes up quite a lot in terms of just like thinking about our dynamic and just being like what you know I don't yeah just with all of it like especially because you know it's the last few months of it just being us two as well so you're like

how's it going and like how do you want it to go and like yeah because I guess those sorts of conversations like often don't happen by default yeah like it's so easy to get kind of caught up in the day-to-day and especially like in the early stages stages of dating someone or in a relationship where maybe you aren't living together and you're seeing each other once twice a week and you're doing something each time and this stuff happening yeah yeah and then when's the time to reflect on it yeah

hey when we did that last week like i had a really good time and this is how this thing that you said made me feel and i really liked that and i was just wondering like if you also had a good time yeah you know it's like those it's unusual to have those sorts of conversations in the moment and so making time for them i think makes sense um you know one thing that we did like what went well in our relationship this week how well supported by me did you feel this week

What's something I did that made you feel loved, appreciated or respected this week? What could I do better or differently in the coming week? And so we'd answer the questions for each other. What are your main stresses at the moment? How can I help? What went not so well last week? Well, or last, however long that period was. This is a good one. Is there anything at all I did this week that made you feel not nice, aka sad or bad or annoyed in any tiny way? How can I make it better for us? Yeah.

And I find that- That's a hard one. I always get really good data points on this. Data points. Okay, cool. And I think with a question like that, you have to be careful with how you answer it. One of the things I always hear from like,

um like relationship therapists and stuff is like using i sentences so like say if like we were doing that audit and you asked me that question instead of being like well you did this and you made me and you you're a bad person or like you're insensitive using an i sentence would be like

I felt like this because of this thing that happened or like this is how you like making it actually about like how what that experience was like for you is how I've heard that it's better to do because I think kind of coming with the like accusatory way like you this you that the other person can get quite defensive and actually like sometimes we do need to like own our feelings as well of like

oh, I felt like this and like, I think that's partly due to this thing that you did, but then also it might have something to do with like this thing that happened to me in my past. And maybe like it would be really helpful for me if we talked about that more. Do you know what I mean? Like rather than being like, you don't understand me. Yeah.

Yeah, I've been reading a book recently called Nonviolent Communication, which is all about this kind of like, here's how we express our feelings in this kind of way. And it's all about kind of making it about yourself that, yeah, I feel like X when this happens. And then it becomes not a, it's not an accusation. It's literally just, this is the way I'm feeling. And I'm just letting you know. And, you know, I'd like us to talk about this if that's all right with you kind of vibes. And then, yeah, there's no right or wrong answer. It's not like pointing the finger at someone. It's really kind of owning the feeling.

Yeah, because sometimes it can feel like somebody's direct actions have like hurt us in a certain way, right? But other times, like I know that there's been times where like Dan has done something perfectly reasonable, but I'm upset by it, right? And so it's about like, sometimes it's about still being honest about that. Like, cause sometimes we can be like, oh, my problems are insignificant. Like I'm not gonna bring it up. But actually like just being like,

I felt like this, this is how that made me feel. Whilst also acknowledging that maybe it wasn't entirely down to the other person's behavior. Because there's a lot of things at play when it comes to how we react to things and how we feel about things. And some of that will be like,

the literal behavior that we are on the receiving end of but other times it can just be like all sorts of baggage that we're also bringing to the to the situation but being able to have those conversations about like what you do about that because even so even if someone's behavior is like perfectly reasonable like whatever you decide reasonable in your relationship is they might go okay like yes this this thing that i was doing like i know that

that was reasonable, but I see that it's upsetting you. And so I'm happy to like meet you where you're at, or maybe we meet somewhere in the middle for the time being whilst we work on this. And that doesn't necessarily have to be a permanent thing. Like maybe that person will eventually be able to like go back to doing that thing, whatever it was before. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, because I guess if you care about how the other person is feeling and, like, the relationship itself, that's probably more important than, oh, well, in my view, it's reasonable for me to do this kind of thing. Yeah, because it's not about being, like, right or wrong in that situation. Like, well, it was perfectly reasonable, my actions, so I take zero responsibility for how you're feeling right now. You know? You're their teammate. You're their partner. Like, just because what...

just because what you did was reasonable or whatever, doesn't mean that you can just completely take a step back from your partner's feelings. And that's why I like that question about like, what's making you feel stressed right now and how can I help? Because that stress wasn't caused by you, but you're still making it part of your responsibility as a partner.

their partner to help them with that. We have a bunch of questions from social media. Oh, really? We posted on Instagram and Twitter being like, we're going to chat to you. What? I didn't see this. Oh, I never see anything on Twitter these days. And a bunch of people have asked questions. Okay. I wonder if we can bash through some of these. Patrick Macapugas says, is there such a thing as the one and quote, love at first sight? I believe that there is like lust and infatuation at first sight and like attraction at first sight for sure. And vibes at first sight.

- Oh yeah. Love, no. I think love, oh, this is maybe controversial. I think love is a little bit of a choice. - Ooh. - I think- - What do you mean? - I think I make the choice to love Dan every day. Like I think falling in love, like that can be a bit more of a feeling and like, but then I think the staying in love- - Yeah. - Is like an active choice.

Which I think is almost more romantic because like I am choosing you. And that is an active thing that I'm doing rather than just like, oh, well, I love you. I can't help my feelings. Yeah. It's like how some people say that love isn't a feeling, love is an action. Yeah. Or falling in love is easy, being in love is hard or things like that. And then the one, no, I don't believe in the one. I believe in many ones. Nice.

Across a lifetime. Here's a good one. Underscore Davis Matthew. Is the concept of virginity useful to society? No. It's completely sexist and heteronormative and doesn't reflect a lot of people's experiences. It was probably useful to society when...

I mean, we still do, but basically measure a woman's worth off a virgin status or not, or like whether or not she's had a penis inside of her. I mean, that's what it's getting at because we think of it like, oh, it's about whether or not you've had sex, but it's like, no, it's about whether or not you've had sex

penis and vagina sex. That's like what it is digging down to, which means that it excludes all sorts of different kinds of sex, all sorts of different kinds of people. We have value judgments on whether or not someone is a virgin or not. And that also will vary depending on what their gender and their age is. So like you have somebody who is like an older man, you would judge them for their virgin status, but then you have a younger woman and you would judge them for their lack of virgin status, right? So it's like-

It plays out in all of these different ways and I just think it is gross and useless and we need to move on from it. Okay. And instead talk about like your first sexual experience because people define sex and can define sex in all sorts of different ways. Yeah. And some people will go through life never having penis and vagina sex. On a similar vein, what's your take on the usefulness of number of sexual partners?

In any kind of domain. Yeah, I also think that that's another one that just like, you shouldn't care. I think it's more about like the attitudes that people have maybe. Like I think it's a useful thing to have conversations with like potential like romantic and sexual partners about like their attitudes towards casual sex and their attitudes towards like

why they've slept with that many people or why they've not slept with that many people, rather than it being about like the number itself holding any information. Like what does that, as you would say, data point tell you? Like I think actually being able to drill down with somebody about like, how were those experiences? Like, did you have a good time? Like what was your motivation for,

like not having sex outside of relationship what was your motivation for like having lots of sex outside like like casual sex and stuff i think that will tell you a lot more about a person than like the hard number itself okay yeah i was thinking i'm thinking okay so i've

uh for the record i'm with you on this one um but i've spoken to a few a few of my guy friends and tried to argue that point of view of like number of sexual partners shouldn't matter come on guys you know it's the 21st century let's let's move on etc etc to which a response i've often heard is look there is a difference between someone who's had three sexual partners and someone who's had 300 sexual partners what difference do they see what's the difference that they're thinking about is it like

a difference in like that person's attitudes towards sex. I suspect that's probably what they're getting at. Well, so that's maybe what they should be focusing on is like,

Also, what standards do they hold themselves to? Like, are they also the kind of person who would maybe only be having three sexual partners total, right? Because there can be a lot of like judgment and double standards there as well. So like for somebody who slept with three people versus someone who slept with 300 to these friends, like what information is that telling you about them? Like what kind of girl is that versus what kind of girl is that?

and what is it about one over the other that you prefer rather than like, so ignore the number, but actually drill down of like, what assumptions are you making about that person's character? What assumptions are you making about that kind of person's values or lifestyle or STI status? Like we could be, and so actually like,

There's probably a lot of assumptions that they're holding about these two like fictional characters in their head. And then also asking themselves, do you hold yourself to the same standards? Like, and how would you feel if somebody else judged you a certain way based on the number of people that you'd slept with? Yeah. And then just being like, do you know what? It's absolutely fine, I think, if for you, sex is something that you only want to share with...

a certain kind of person. So maybe your number is lower and maybe the people that you want to have sex with have similar values to you. It just so happens then that

that both of your numbers are low, but it's actually the values that you're holding and the beliefs that you're holding that are the things that make you compatible rather than like the fact that you've both only slept with three people. You could also have somebody who like has lived a whole life, had a lot of casual sex and then like come out of that and been like, actually like I've now discovered that this is what I want.

And actually I want the next time that I sleep with someone for it to be like somebody that I'm in a loving relationship with. So maybe they would actually still be compatible with that person, but their number's way higher. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I think that thing of like the number is, it's not about the number, it's about the values that you think and that you're kind of assuming that that number kind of correlates with and we should talk about the values. So the next time one of your friends goes like, oh, well, I wouldn't want to date someone who slept with 300 people, just be like,

tell me about that person yeah this person this imaginary person in your mind who slept with 300 people tell me about them and what is it what are the things about them that it that you think makes them undateable for you um on the double standards note yeah another thing i've heard i i won't say from friends because uh more like from random bros on the internet is well men are evolutionarily cycled but biologically designed to sleep with lots of people women are not um

Phrases like, well, you know, a key that opens lots of locks is a good key and a lock that's open. Yeah. All of that kind of stuff. Oh my God. How do we deal with that? First of all, humans are not locks and keys. So can we just like chuck that one in the bin? Also, again, that metaphor of,

highly focuses on penis and vagina sex, which is not the only kind of sex, and also shouldn't be the top of the hierarchy of sex acts as well, but it very much is in our society in terms of like what we think of as real sex, right? What counts as sex.

um so let's just like chuck all of that in the bin please like no thank you um but this like evolutionary biology thing of like men spread your seed and like women want to like nest and just have one partner i would recommend the book sex at dawn it goes into a lot of this stuff and challenges a lot of those ideas there's another theory that um

is about how it was actually like women that slept around a lot in the communities because it was better for the offspring if there was ambiguity about who the paternal person was, the father was of the child. Because when you're living in tight-knit communities, if all of the men in your community are invested in the wellbeing of that child, that child is going to

do fantastically if only one man is and this other man is like well i'm invested in my child i don't care about that guy's kid um or if they're fighting over like the paternal like um

because like, you know who the mom is, like that's who that baby like came out of. But you know, like we only know now these days from like tests to like know like 100% sure. So yeah, that's another theory. And then there's also like something that we've seen recently, like fighting sperm. So if you put like sperm from two different people's bodies in like,

a petri dish I guess I'm not a scientist together you see them fighting so if a if a woman's like sleeping around in her community the idea is that like the best sperm will win and so like you'll have the best like

fittest, strongest children. - I will check the book out. - Yeah, there's all sorts of stuff going on there that is not as simple as the kind of like traditional ideas that were given. But what I say is like, even if they're true, right? Even if way back when it was a case for practical reasons, for resource reasons or whatever,

That that gender dynamic is true. Why does that mean it has to be true now? Because we don't have the same we don't have the same resource limitations as we did that we've got modern medicine. We've got feminism. Yeah like we we have all of these new ideas about people and about and we have all of this new technology and and

I think so much of like the idea is about us like being slaves to our biology, but actually so much of modern life is about us like- - Like transcending that. - Overcoming our biology, right? Like, you know, if I was chained to my biology, I would have to probably stop working for an entire year 'cause I would have to like exclusively breastfeed

And I probably wouldn't have the time to work. However, like pumping and bottles exist, which means actually Dan can do some of the feeding. So already like technology means that we don't have to stick to those same roles that would have been prescribed. Yeah. There's a book I read recently, The Evolution of Desire, which kind of talks about this. It's all of the stuff around like how desire has evolved over time. But his main kind of conclusion, if any, is like, even though all of this stuff may be true,

We can still choose to not act in those ways. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of how I feel about it as well. And I think this is one of the issues that people have with religion as well, where maybe rules and regulations that were set forth 1,500 to 2,500 years ago may well have worked for the time that they're in. Yeah. But, you know, there is an element of, you know, how many of the rules that someone...

someone quote made up 2000 years ago do we really want to continue following today and are we making that active choice to do so on another thing that you said you said someone you know hypothetical person could have had lots of casual sex and then they they're

they realize that they don't want to do that anymore and they want to find someone else. There is a common trope amongst some segments of the internet, mainly sort of the men's rights activists and all that kind of vibe. Why are you going to bring them into it? Okay, go on. Yeah, I'd love to hear your take on this. Terrified of them, honestly. Yeah? Yeah, like they murder lots of women, well, the incels especially, but anyway, that's a whole other... Yeah, so like one thing they would say is...

It's really unfair that there are women who have their, quote, party years when they're young and attractive and so on and sleep around with loads of guys. And then when they hit a certain age, they realize, oh, actually, I now need to settle down with someone. And therefore, I need to find someone who will be a good dad rather than, you know, the Chad in inverted commas is kind of the memes here. Yeah. Who I used to sleep with back in my youth. And, yeah.

a lot of these internet bros would have the idea that this is fundamentally unfair. I don't know, have you seen my husband's bone structure? He's a Chad. Oh, he's a Chad. No, what was the question? Sorry. So I guess the question is like, these bros would put a kind of value judgment on women who do that sort of thing, saying that, well, you know, this is a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

You kind of, yeah, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Honestly, I don't even know what to say to that because I'm just like, it's obviously bullshit because like men do it too. I'm just like, that's just a human experience for some people. Not everyone does that, but some people...

like it was like what we were saying before about like you know your 20s just like mess around a bit if you want but like some people meet like the person that they spend the rest of their life with when they're like 18 or whatever and like that's fine too some people like spend their entirety of their 20s in one relationship and then it ends and then they find themselves in the dating scene again in their 30s some people will have like two or three major serious relationships in their lifetime um

some people never will some people are polyamorous like i just the people are different like let's get over it kind of thing yeah yeah um there's no conspiracy theory against you when women sleep around and then settle down with somebody like no i am mara says what are the best the best books to read to learn about more to learn more about sex and relationships

I have, yeah, I have some recommendations. I think Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski is a brilliant one. That is one that I just like recommend a lot and has definitely like helped a lot of people. I don't want to like recommend too many because honestly like,

It can be quite overwhelming. But that one is definitely a good one to start with. If you've read Emily Nagoski, I would then like recommend reading "Tomorrow Sex Will Be Good Again" by Katherine Angel. That is brilliant. "Mind the Gap" by Dr. Karen Gurney.

- What are these books about? - So honestly, like, so "Mind the Gap" and "Come As You Are" are quite similar. They're very focused on like more so like sexuality when it comes to people with vulvas, but it's just a lot of like how your body works. And then also like "Mind the Gap" especially dispelling a lot of myths around like how

sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction is all about the frequency of sex that you have. And actually like it being about quality and not quantity and things like that. And then, yeah, there's a come as you are is very like sex science kind of like distilling that for kind of like public consumption.

mainstream consumption if you want to like be like oh that's why my body does that thing oh my god this is so like normalizing and like because you know so many people especially folks with vulvas who are just like what's like am i broken right because we just like have

all of these like really warped ideas of like how our bodies are supposed to react to like sexual stimuli. So there's a lot of stuff in there just about like desire and arousal and all of these kinds of things. And then like, yeah, Minds the Gap has a lot more stuff about kind of like cultivating those kinds of like sexual relationships in like more long-term relationships and

There's a thing that I learned from that book about sexual currency, which I really loved, which is basically like, so like forgetting that like frequency of sex is unimportant, right? It's about like the quality and sexual currency actually being this thing that is very crucial for a romantic relationship, which is like the times when you're not having sex, but

but you're still like relating to each other as sexual beings. So it could be like flirting or making sexual jokes with one another, like a passionate kiss, a little grope of the bum in the kitchen. But it's like all of these little things where you're constantly relating to each other in a sexual way.

You are acknowledging that the other person is a sexual being, but you're doing these things in a context where like it's not going to lead to sex and there's no pressure for it to lead to sex. Because sometimes that can like shut people down as well because they're like, oh, now they want sex. And so now my body is like shutting down and I feel like pressure or whatever. So I really love like the sexual currency thing that I learned from that book. And then like with Catherine Angel's book, Tomorrow Sex Will Be Good Again, that's a bit more of a like,

and political exploration of like all of these new conversations that are coming out about consent and desire and arousal if you wanna kind of like.

dig real deep into that. - Oh, interesting. Great, I'll get it on Audible. And we'll have links to all of those in the show notes and in the video description. We end with a little quick fire round, which we do with everyone. - Oh, okay. - So number one, what advice would you give to your younger self? - Honestly, I hate this question because I feel like I never have something good to say. I probably should always know what this is.

But I mean, just crack on, just keep doing what you're doing. I honestly just like, you know, you'll be fine. Who's had the biggest influence on your career? Oh God, I honestly don't know. I think it's like different phases maybe, but maybe like the Vlogbrothers because like they were like some of the earliest people that I was watching on YouTube and like the reason why...

why I started making YouTube videos and I still watch them to this day. And I just like think that they're such great role models. And I really look up to them as like older people on the internet. They're not old, they're like in their forties, but like, you know, they've been on this platform for like 15 years, whatever. And I'm like, okay, that's what aging gracefully online looks like, you know?

What's one tip for someone looking for success? Really defining what success means to you. And then also just being able to like focus on the joy in your current life as well. Nice.

Yeah. What is the first and last hour of your day look like these days? Ooh, in my first hour these days, I always make sure I get my Wordle in. Nice. I've dealt with it once or twice. Yeah. So that's a thing for me in the mornings now. And then the last hour, maybe just like reading in bed. Yeah. Cool. Falling asleep. What material item under a hundred pounds or so has

has added disproportionate value to your life? Toaster, no. I like toast. Oh God, I can't think. Under a hundred pounds. Pop socket. What? A pop socket on the back of my phone. What's a pop socket?

My phone's over there. Oh, is it one of those like little circular things? Yeah, like it sticks out thing. As someone with small hands, I feel so much more secure holding my phone because I can like actually text with it and taking a selfie. I'm not worrying about dropping my phone. Love it. Nice. They cost like a tenner or something. Sick. What book would you recommend to anyone? Anyone? I don't believe that there is a book that is for everyone.

But the first thing that literally came to my mind is that if you're into sci-fi, I would recommend Becky Chambers' Wayfarers series. The first book is called The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. And if you like sci-fi, bunch of misfits on a spaceship.

long journey, like found family, lots of interesting species and like dynamics between all the crew. Cool. Good fun. Very nice. If you got cancelled and lost everything, how would you start again? Literally my worst nightmare. I...

I think I would honestly just be like, yeah, I think if that happened and I really hope it doesn't, but obviously it's something that I think is a genuine fear for me and a lot of my peers as well. I honestly don't know how I'd handle it. I've seen some people like really like mentally struggle. I would hope that I would get a therapist to deal with that and then also,

I don't know, obviously it depends on the context that it happens in and whether or not I choose to be like, I'm gonna continue doing this work that I do 'cause I think that it's really important. Or if I just kind of go, thank you, I'm done. I have no idea. - Yeah. What quote or mantra do you live by, if any? - There's a song lyric from an Avett Brothers song

that I love, that is literally decide what to be and go be it. Which I mean, when I was like 17, I found really inspiring. Now as somebody who like understands a bit more about like structural inequalities, I'm like, you can't just decide what to be and then go be it because like,

things have a way of making that not possible but so I'm just like yes this mantra but actually that but not that nice and finally journey or destination

Oh, journey for sure. Nice. Love it. Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. Where can people learn more about you? I'm Hannah Witton in most places online. My podcast is called Doing It. Oh, I featured in that podcast. You did. We'll put a link to that episode. You did. That was quite a while ago, wasn't it? Yeah, like about a year ago, I think. Yeah.

Yeah, I asked all the noob questions of that. I loved that chat. I thought it was really fun. To make dating more productive or something like that, I think was the title. Yeah, I can't remember. But yeah, we talked about like gamifying dating. Yeah, we'll stick a link in the video description and in the show notes. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. And good luck with the pregnancy. Thanks. We'll see you around. All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast

are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. I'll catch you hopefully in the next episode.