#140 TKP Insights: Sex and Relationships
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Welcome to the Knowledge Project Podcast. I'm your host, Shane Parrish. The goal of this show is to master the best of what other people have already figured out. To do that, I sit down with people at the top of their game to uncover the useful lessons you can learn and apply in life and business.

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What you're about to hear is a new feature here at FS and a special episode of the Knowledge Project. Over the years, I've had some of the leading minds across a variety of fields share their insights with me about topics like leadership, decision-making, health and wellness, and so much more. Now we're taking some of those conversations and curating them into a single episode, all revolving around one theme.

And we'll be doing this a few times a year so that it's even easier for you to tap into the amazing ideas our guests have to share. This is the first in our series of themed episodes, and we'll start by focusing on relationships and sex, something we haven't really talked about much in over a year. We dug back through the archives to come up with essential segments from five past episodes focused on these topics. And there really are so many wonderful lessons to learn from these conversations.

Let's start with the guest from episode 62, Dr. Sue Johnson. Dr. Johnson is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist, and author best known for her work in the field of psychology on bonding, attachment, and adult romantic relationships. We begin our conversation with where a relationship itself begins and the simple question, how do we choose a mate? It's time to listen and learn. ♪

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How do we choose a mate? How do we go into that decision? Just I'll leave it there. How do we choose a mate? Of course, there's lots of issues there. And sexuality comes in there. You know, I mean, we are drawn, especially when we're young adults, we're drawn to what we see as sexually attractive. I mean, that primes our approaching people. You know, it primes our desire to get close. But

I think we focus on that a lot, but there's a lot more to it than that. Who you're attracted to, it won't just be, you know, as my daughter says, who's the hottest man in the room, right? But it seems to me that she can walk into a room and almost every man in the room is hot. That's kind of the stage she's in right now. So, you know, well, how does that help you differentiate then? But

We bring our histories with us. You know, I ask couples when they come in, I don't say, have you ever had any secure attachment? Because that's a bit abstract. I say things like, when you grew up in your family, could you, if you got upset, could you turn to someone in your family? And would they reliably come and hold you? And some people say, oh, yes, yes, my dad would come and hold. And other people say, hold me?

When I cried, just listen to the voice. You know the answer, right? This is foreign territory for this person. So I think people who've experienced safe connection with a parent have a big advantage. And research says that they're more likely to have friends in high school. They're more likely to be better friends themselves. And they're more likely to be empathic

with any person they're dating, right? They're more likely to find happy dating relationships. Well, of course they are because they've got a model. They know what a good relationship looks like. They know what it feels like to be vulnerable with somebody, right? To be vulnerable with someone and to have that person respond. So they have certain, it's more than expectations. It's almost like a

a visceral map for what this is supposed to feel like. Expectation sounds cognitive, you know. So it's a visceral map of what relationships look like and what's allowed in relationships and what you're supposed to do. So folks that have had secure attachment in childhood are at an advantage.

It's like love is a gift that keeps on giving. When you know what it looks like, then you're better at putting your hand on it in the world. So if you come from a securely attached... For example, I'll give you an example. I talked about my dad. My dad always treated me with the most amazing respect. I can't imagine one time when my dad ever implied that because I was a girl, I couldn't do anything or that my views weren't okay.

It's bigger than expectations. You have a template. You have a, of how you expect to be treated and what you're looking for in relationships. So if you, if you are loved in childhood and you know what that feels like, then you can go out and you can, you can tell when that's a possibility and when it isn't. Many of us,

Have no idea. We don't know what we're looking for. We just don't want to be lonely anymore. And we want somebody to have fun with and we want someone to have sex with. And...

You know, we're caught up in the society thing of, you know, girls are supposed to look like this and guys are supposed to, you know, look like that, you know. And we get all caught up in that. But the bottom line is I think that people are seeking out people to connect with. And what I've always tried to tell my children is,

is you can be attracted to lots of people in a very superficial way. And, you know, you can, you, you're going to experiment with relationships. You are because, because you have to get to know this dance, right. And you're going to make mistakes, but you know,

What you really need to is listen to yourself and listen to when you feel safe and when dancing with someone is easy and makes you feel good and when you can be vulnerable for a moment and that person tunes in and cares about your vulnerability

that's the person to go with. Are those the little sort of bids that you're putting out there that people are reciprocating? That's a lovely word you're using. It's a bid. It's a bid. And people don't realize what they're doing. You know, I mean, I'm tuned into relationships, so I watch them all the time in airports and among my friends, and I'm tuning on a different level than most of them are. I can't help it. You know, this is my job at this point. But people are making bids. And, you know, even...

Watching people, I fly a lot, so even watching people on a plane, you know, you sit down next to somebody and you might make a comment and they don't look you in the eye, they turn their head away, and you immediately get that they're closed, they don't want to connect with you.

And then you might make a little bid for a connection with somebody else and they turn towards you. They turn in their seat. They give you eye contact. They look at you. They smile. They make a comment. They respond to what you said. Ah, this person wants to dance. Right. And then the point is most of us haven't been taught to tune in on that level. You know, I dance honchatine tango.

And the fascinating thing about that is that for the first three years, Argentine tango is very difficult. It's a nerd dance, basically. And for the first three years, I sort of thought I was learning it. And then one night, a stranger came and I started dancing with him and he broke all the rules. You're not supposed to do this. He stopped in the middle of the floor and he said, what are you doing?

I said, this is incredibly rude, right? I said, I'm dancing Argentine tango with you. He said, no, you're not. I said, I'm sorry? He said, you're not. You're in your head predicting what you think I'm going to ask you to do and doing the steps in your head. I said, ah, you're not with me. I said, oh, okay.

He said, forget all the steps in your head. Just feel the movement in my body. Feel the momentum. Listen to the music and the beat. Feel it. Let the dance do you. Oh, my God. So tango changed that night into something totally different and magical. And I became aware of what was going on on a whole different level. People who have close relationships...

are more able to attune in that way. They tune into the relational drama that's going on in a relationship. Other people do what I was doing. They're in their head predicting stuff, doing tasks. You say to people, why did you get married? And some people say things like, oh, I don't know, like, you know, well, we both like canoeing.

And my other girlfriend didn't like canoeing and I wanted to canoe every weekend and she'd canoe. And I thought it was time to get married. It's convenient. Yeah, it's like it's a deal, right? And they're not tuned into the relational aspect. And I think...

I always have been, and I think it's something to do with growing up in an English pub and spending my childhood. I didn't spend my childhood watching TV. I spent my childhood watching adults get slightly drunk and emote all over the place and fight and cry and tell stories and

turn to my dad for support and tell their stories of the war. Some people would have thought it was very inappropriate for me as a child, but that's what I grew up with. So I tune into that level. And so young adults who can tune into this emotional level and who know what love feels like and who've seen love in operation, who felt it, they're better at seeking it out. They're better at tuning in on that level. They want to dance with someone

who will tune into them and respond to them, and where something, they feel safe enough with that person where they can play. And that's constructive bonding, right? And so, of course, that's only the beginning. You fall in love with somebody, and then usually everything goes wrong because, you know, they're bound to disappoint you, right? It's been kind of interesting with my kids to

You know, of course, my kids call me up when they have fights with their partner. Of course they do. Who better to call, really? Yes, exactly. But, you know, and of course things go wrong and they fight and they hurt each other. And that's relationship. If you dance with somebody, they're going to step on your feet. They're going to go left when you expect them to go right. That's just the way it is. The point is...

in a good relationship, you can recognize what's happened and you can tune in and you can repair it. And I think my kids have found partners who are responsive to them. It's emotional responsiveness that's the basis of a secure bond. That's Dr. Sue Johnson from episode 62, Cracking the Code of Love.

Next up, once you've found someone and you've begun a romantic relationship, what questions should each person ask of one another in the beginning of a relationship? Acclaimed psychotherapist Esther Perel joined me on episode 71 of the podcast to discuss a range of topics, including how she works with couples who are struggling to keep their relationship intact.

Perel has focused her work on studying the tension in human relationships between the need for security like love, belonging and closeness, and the need for freedom like erotic desire, adventure and distance. We start this portion of the interview asking the question, what kind of conversations should new couples have and how do those conversations change over the course of a relationship?

You know, there is a theory that says that basically, whatever you discuss, the difficult conversations, if you want, that you discuss 20 years later, they were all there in the first two dates.

People actually know their things. They know their key conversations from the first moment. It's not that you have different conversations. The conversations evolve because you have different life stages. You have different stressors. You have different seasons and phases in a relationship. There are new members sometimes that join, children. There are people who leave, death and loss. And all of those...

shift the system. A couple is a relational system and that system is continuously morphing and adapting itself to external things, work, money, where they live, moving, et cetera, health and internal things.

And the conversations that you have are about that, you know. But there are a few basic ones you want to have in the beginning. This couple, you know, they have 20 years apart. They're young as a couple. They're not necessarily both young in age. She has more experience than him, even though she's 20 years younger in terms of relationships. He's actually quite new at this, at a more kind of committed long-term relationship.

Where do they want to live? They're both foreigners. Do they want to have a family together? How will they arrange their professional lives together? You know, in this instance, he comes from a rather traditional family where he's used to come home and there's food on the table. Well, is that the woman you picked? You know, is that being discussed between the two of you or is that an assumption? And if it's an assumption, you only make a statement when the food is not on the table.

And she says, why don't you cook on occasion? You know, so it's about people's values. It's about people's expectations. It's about people's vision for life. What do they look for in life? And is there a compatibility about that? You know, I think one of the big conversations that accompanies every relationship is about culture.

closeness and separateness. What is together and what is individualistic or individual? You know,

How much money do you get to spend alone and how much money, you know, is involved that you start to have a conversation with the other? Do you travel alone or only together? Do you go to bed together every night? Or can you go to sleep when you're actually tired without having to become a unison? You know, do you, you know, do you want, how do you want to parent? How do you envision family life? How do you see your relationship to the extended family? What are the boundaries with the grandparents or with your in-laws?

What do you do with your exes or with your deep friendships with other people? Do you continue them? Do you maintain them? Can you maintain them alone or do they become couple friends? The issue of boundaries of what is ours and what is mine. What do I get to still decide alone? What is my zone of freedom and what is our zone of commitment and togetherness? I think this is probably one of the very important

important conversations. People don't discuss it with those terms, but de facto, that is what they are talking about. I love the idea of sort of couples discussing values. And I don't... Are those values permanent? Do values change over the course of a relationship? Do what you expect out of a relationship, does that change

Because often people say they grow apart. Is that true? Like, how does that happen? Yeah, but I'll answer that in a sec. It's a different... For example, I saw a couple this week and they're having infertility issues.

And one of them wants to really get in there and use all the means possible that science and medicine can provide. And the other person basically is a more religious person and says, you know, if it's meant to be, those are not things we decide. And this is a real philosophical value question. What is the right of an individual to tamper with fate, if you want, you know, or to tamper with what life puts in front of you?

Do you go at it and try in every way you can because your agency is what's at the center? Or is what's at the center an acceptance of what life puts in front of you? Or if you want, what God puts in front of you? But they're not discussing it like that. They're talking about should they go for infertility treatment and when is the next IVF cycle? But what they really are talking about is that.

And once you actually put it in terms of values, it becomes much less a debate between them about who is passive and who is active, you know, who gets things done and who is lazy. And it becomes a kind of a, you know, you're bad rather than you're different.

That's why values become really important in these conversations. You know, we discuss feelings. We discuss values. We discuss beliefs. We discuss political assumptions. We discuss our view to the universe, you know, and how we see our place on this planet. But we don't discuss it as if we're in a philosophy course. We talk about it in terms of how we relate to food.

and to excess or to abundance, how we are either looking at what's missing or at what's there. It takes place in small micro moments, but in fact, the conversations are about big ideas. So when you ask, do people grow apart? Look,

When people grow apart, it's not because they have a difference of opinion necessarily, because some couples have major differences in opinion, but they continue to remain deeply connected, curious about each other, respectful of who they are. And they're not threatened by the difference of the other, basically.

Other couples, the slightest difference is World War Three, you know, so it's not in the difference itself. It's in the way that people experience the difference. If you're secure, you can be next to somebody who doesn't eat meat and you don't need them to be like you in order to validate yourself. So when people grow apart, what's happening is both there are two kinds of growing apart. There's either

bickering, chronic conflict or high conflict, or there is disengagement and indifference and separateness. You can either have too much or too little of the thing that actually makes people grow apart.

you know, that's really the choreography of growing apart. It's constant fighting or it's so far apart that you don't even notice if the other one is there or not there. That's the aparts. In the instance of high conflict,

What you get is people who are in very critical relationships. Everything is negative. There is a blame and defense dance. You do. I defend. I counterattack. You defend. You blame me. And we just go at this all the time and we react to everything the other person is doing. For everything you do, I have something to say.

And people basically feel diminished and they feel like they don't recognize themselves. And, you know, they constantly blame the other for their misery. That's the other thing is they really hold the other person responsible for how unhappy they are.

On the other side, what you have is people who no longer share much of anything and they live entire separate lives. And there's very little that brings them together. And there is a sense of isolation, of sometimes of loneliness, of indifference, of neglect.

of lack of contact, of lack of what we call bids for connection, you know, ways in which it's clear that you're part of my life, you're part of the fabric of my every day. It's like they're just so far apart. And both of these are descriptions of couples that grow apart. You mentioned something in there that I just want to explore a little bit. I'm curious about, which is secure. What does it mean to be secure in a relationship?

I'm going to give it to you as an image of a little child. You know, do you have kids? I do, yeah. All right. So how old, if I may ask, just so I can read the metaphor. Oh, 10 and 9. 10 and 9. So at 10 and 9, you still have it very much. And you've had it from the beginning. They sit on your lap.

or they hold you or they rest on your shoulder or on your chest. They are nested. They need nothing at that moment. They're just kind of completely at ease. Or they're trying to console themselves, but they are drawing from you their sense of comfort and consolation. And at some point, they're done.

It's all fine. And they get up and they begin by crawling or they go, they run. They basically leave you to go and be into their own world, to go to play, to go to do their thing. They are now experiencing freedom. They've just experienced safety and security and attachment and nesting. And now they're moving into the world and they're going to do hide and seek. They're playing, they're in their own imaginary realm.

And in order to play, they have to be free and unselfconscious and free of worry. Otherwise, you can't play. To be secure in a relationship is to have both of those things.

is to be able to come back to the harbor, to anchor yourself, to feel rooted, and then to get up, to leave, and to go and play without having to worry. Now, what is it that you don't have to worry about? You don't have to worry about the fact that when you go, you're leaving somebody there who is suddenly bewildered and anxious and depressed and angry, but actually somebody who is totally at ease letting you go, or that you worry that when you come back, they won't be there.

And that hide and seek, that's why that game is so important, is to know that even when I'm gone, I live inside of you. Even when I'm gone, when I come back, you'll be there. Even when I'm gone, I take you with me. And so I experience freedom and connection at the same time. That is security in a relationship for adults and for children. That's Esther Perel from Episode 71, Cultivating Desire.

Next up, we turn to sex educator, researcher, and author Emily Nagoski, who appeared in episode number 66. Maintaining sexual connection and chemistry is one of the keys to happy and sustainable relationships. And yet, as we all know, it's not easy. While sex often starts with a lot of variety and intensity, it can easily become a victim of being busy adults and routine.

While Emily and I go in depth on the role of intimacy in our entire conversation, this clip focuses on the different kinds of sex we have and why pleasure is the measure.

So here's a thing I've learned since I wrote Come As You Are. People believe you more when the things you say rhyme. Makes sense. They remember it better and they believe you more. So I made it rhyme. Ready? Yes. There's a lot of different ways about breaking down the different kinds of sex we have. Pleasure is the measure. I like it. Pleasure is the measure of sexual well-being. It's not about how often you do it, who you do it with, what room you do it in, what positions, how many orgasms you have. It's whether or not you like it.

the sex you are having. So if you like whatever counts as fucking for you, do you. Those are our sort of like artificial distinctions on the same sort of biological behavior. It's not. Well, I mean, so then we need to figure out what counts as biological versus what's

some other level of analysis because in a technical sense, the soulful emotional connection implied by making love, that's part of the biological power of sex is it's a bonding, socially connecting behavior. Almost none of the sex humans have ever had is reproductive. Even before there was hormonal contraception,

There was not a statistically significant relationship between frequency of sex and number of pregnancies. So almost none of the sex we have is reproductive. Its primary function for us as a species is as a social behavior.

So that one specific kind of social behavior of making love, of bonding a pair of people together who intend to like stay and maintain that bond over the long term, that attachment behavior is biological. There's hormones involved and like chemical changes. It's biological, but it's also social. And it requires...

a particular mindset where you go into it with a bunch of things turned off, a bunch of cultural scripts in particular turned off, that this is sex about performance, that this is sex about reproduction, that this is sex that's just about like a notch on a

Do people use that term still, notch on the headboard? I don't know. I know what you mean when you say it, so maybe, yeah. So you come into it being like, this is an experience that's about me connecting with this other human being who matters a lot to me. And it's about the fact that this person matters so much to me. That's what I think is implied by making love. And it's...

totally possible to have sex in the absence of that. It is totally possible to just like put your body parts together in a noisy, energetic, athletic way, which I think is what is meant by fucking. And I think having sex is putting your parts together in like a lazy kind of way. Like you're just like here, this is sort of like bare minimum. Here's my penis, go. Yeah.

See, that's the thing is I was thinking here is my vagina. Exactly. Same thing. Yeah. And I was going to say, do you, but I guess what I mean is do me? Go to town, buddy. How's that for a come on? Get it over with. Hopefully not get it over with. Talk to me about the role of sex in a relationship. Sex, monogamous relationship, husband, wife, male, male, male or female, female. People vary. Yeah.

Not only do people vary from each other and couples vary from each other, but also people change across time and relationships change across time. Tell me about some of the common ways that people, the role of sex in relationships and maybe, and then talk to me about how they change over time. So here's a sort of standard narrative is that early on in the hot and heavy fallen in love, there's a greater frequency of sex, a greater intensity of

of sexual experience where you're like bonding together and building the foundation of what it's eventually going to grow into. It feels a very high desire, high intensity of pleasure, hopefully. And you're often using sex as a way to repair any potential damage to the bond. Like if you have a fight or if one of the partners goes away for a while, you come back together in a sexual way for sure.

So that's the sort of early in the relationship. And then you like get together and you realize this person, your plan is for them to be there forever.

And it's really easy at that point for sex to drop away from your list of priorities in life because you've got a lot of other stuff to do. Among the couples who sustain a strong sexual connection over multiple decades, this is the talk I'm giving tomorrow. Among the couples who sustain a strong sexual connection over multiple decades, they have two characteristics in common. Those characteristics are not that they have sex very frequently.

Almost no one has sex very frequently because, you know, we're busy. These are not necessarily couples who have wild adventurous sex. This is one of my favorite studies. Just a couple of years ago, a study found that the best predictor of sex and relationship satisfaction was not how often a couple had sex or even like what orgasms they have, but whether or not they cuddled after sex.

And these are not necessarily couples that like constantly can't wait to get their hands on each other. Sometimes they are. From Come As You Are, you know the difference between spontaneous desire, which just seems to emerge out of the blue. Erica Moen, the cartoonist who illustrated Come As You Are, draws spontaneous desire as a lightning bolt to the genitals.

Kaboom! You just want it. Versus responsive desire, which emerges in response to pleasure. So in a long-term relationship, what this often looks like is like you got the childcare and you put the last load of laundry in the dryer. And so you tromp up the stairs because it's Saturday at three o'clock. Like you said, you, me, and the red underwear. Let's do this thing.

And so you put your body in the bed and you let your skin touch your partner's skin and your body goes, oh, right. I like this.

I like this person. That's responsive desire. And spontaneous and responsive desire are both normal, healthy ways to experience desire. But responsive desire is more typical of that like later in the relationship sort of experience. The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection, the two things they do have in common, one, they are friends. They have a strong friendship with trust at the foundation of their relationship. There it is again, trust. And two,

They prioritize sex. They decide. They choose it. They believe that it matters for the quality of their relationship, that they set aside all the other stuff they could doing, that the child care that they need to be doing and the jobs they need to go to and other family members and friends and God forbid they just want to watch Game of Thrones, right? They cordon off time just to spend doing this thing

frankly, sort of strange thing that we humans do of like rolling our bodies around and combining our fluids and like breathing heavily. And like if you're somebody walked in and didn't know what it was, they might be worried about you because of your facial expression. Those are the couples who sustain a strong sexual connection. I know this isn't the story we're usually told about what like satisfying sex life in the long term looks like. We're

If you like to spice it up, go for it. Novelty can be a great way to keep the wheels spinning. But ultimately, what matters, that engagement with sexual novelty like porn and role play and toys, those things are great if you like them. But the choice to engage with them in a positive way is itself prioritizing sex, deciding that it matters enough for your life to spend your money and your time engaging

collecting those things and participating in those things. Sex seems to... Oh, I want to add one more thing. Yeah, go. If people have kids, it is normal early in the child experience for sex to disappear from a relationship for any number of reasons, not least being that your sleep is going to be deeply fucked up. And we know that sleep is actually a predictor of frequency and quality of sex.

There was one study from, oh, 2015 that showed that adding one extra hour of sleep increased the chances of having sex the next night by 10%. So everybody out there who wants to get some sleep. Just get a little extra rest. What are the other predictors of frequency and pleasure of sex? Oh, there's like way too many. Yeah.

So, okay. Frequency does not matter because, again, pleasure is the measure of sexual well-being. And frequency of sex is not a predictor of sexual satisfaction because people vary so much. There are some people who are like, if I don't get it every day, then I don't feel okay. And other people are like, once a month, that's fine. Or less. Everything works. It depends on the relationship. Yeah, it depends. And everything is normal. Like, you're not—if both of you are satisfied having no sex—

That is just part of the spectrum. You do you. So I'm not one of those sex educators. It's like sex is so important. You really need to prioritize it because there are some people for whom it is not important. Don't prioritize it if it's not important to you. That's Emily Nagoski from episode 66, Pleasure is the Measure.

Suzanne Iacenza is a psychologist and sex therapist. She appeared on episode 75 to discuss a variety of topics about relationships and sex. And we'll pick up our conversation with Suzanne with a discussion about the differences and connections between desire and arousal. And the question, what are the common ways that women get aroused?

Well, you know, I don't know if women are that different from men in terms of arousal. Arousal can happen in so many different ways. Arousal can happen through physical things that happen, like...

the hand in the right place with the right pace, whatever, right? It could happen with what happens in our heads, like fantasy, right? Or anything that either just appears to us, like, you know, your lover comes in as looking hot to like, you just bring in a fantasy of the last time you made love and it was so great, or even the guy down the hall and that, that turns you on while you're doing, you know, your stuff with your partner. So it could be in, in your mind. Um,

And it could be also relational. Like, you know, sometimes the old joke, it tells someone, oh, you want to do foreplay, then put the kids to bed. Tell your partner, your wife or your girlfriend, she can go and rest and take a nice bath and you feed the kids, put them to bed, put out the garbage, clean it. And that's foreplay, right? And now she's really going to be up. Is there any truth to that? Well, actually, I think for some people, the relational is very high on the list for arousal.

Or kindness. Like you need to feel connected. Connected, exactly. So for some people, or intellect. Some people sit down and they have the hottest intellectual conversation and then they want to have sex.

And so I always ask people from attraction stories, like when you first met, I'll often say, well, the minute you met him or her, what was it that attracted you to them? And, you know, you'd be surprised how many people it is not sexual chemistry or it might not even be looks. It could be I love the way her voice sounded behind me in class. I heard that voice answer that teacher's question. I said, who is that woman?

Or for some people, it could be spiritual. Or for some people, it could be they're on the picket line together screaming their heads off about something political and it's a political passion.

So it's not always all based on attractions, not always based on the body or even on sexuality, sexual chemistry. That's important for people to appreciate. And I think arousal works the same way. For some people, it could be very verbal, like I had a really good talk and then I could feel turned on to that person. And for other people, it could be almost strictly physical. They either look good or they don't. And that could be harder because over time in long-term couples, people age, right?

Sometimes people gain weight. That was my next question. Like, how does arousal change during the course of a relationship? I mean, when you're 19 and 20, does it look, I'm assuming it looks a little bit different than when you're 70. It can, but I usually find, yeah, there are generalizations. You can say that as people age, um, does arousal become, um, more, um, does it diminish over time? Hmm.

But for some, it depends on the individuals. For some people, in a long-term relationship, they might even be more aroused by their partner. I work with some people in their 80s. It's so great to work with the 80-year-olds. Because for some people, they fall in love with their partners more as they get older. Because the love for them, and even the turn-on, is about everything they've gone through. It's such a rich, lived life through all the real ups and downs.

that they so love that person and they so want to pleasure them or they're still so turned on. And also sometimes some studies will say, you know, being able to remember how hot it was when you were 20 when you're 80 doesn't hurt either. In other words, that's where fantasy could come in. Right. Because some 80 year olds, the parts aren't even working the same way. They're not even having penetrative sex because they can't for whatever reason that medication issues, health issues, whatever. And they're still having hot sex because if you're broad, if you define

sex broad enough, then almost anything could be hot. And it's all, you know, the mind is really a large part of sexuality too. It's not always how the body parts work. Can you walk me through how people typically explain sex and then expand our definition of sex? Yeah, almost everyone explains

And it doesn't matter whether they're lesbian, gay male, heterosexual, trans. Most people, because that's the narrative we're taught, is usually the definition of sex is genital. It has to involve the genitals. Sometimes has to involve penetration, not always. And has to end in orgasm. Those three components usually the most common when people say, we're not having sex. We want to have more sex. Usually I don't say, oh, yeah, okay, we'll work on that. I'll say, what do you mean by sex?

And then I'd ask, you tell me your version, you tell me your version. And then there's actually something I suggest that couples do when I work with them called the sexual menu. And I often like to make jokes about, you know, comparing food to sex. But it's like how broad, you know, can your sexual menu be? So it's great to have intercourse. Nothing wrong with penetrative sex or things that end in orgasm. But there's a whole lot more you could do with a body.

that involves more than just genitals or orgasm even. And so first I help people actually deconstruct sex

develop and I might say you know just like with food would you want to have a hamburger every night maybe but maybe not could get boring or you might prefer hamburger I might prefer Chinese food can we kind of mix it up and one night we go to the hamburger joint the other night next night we go for Chinese but it's also as you age actually older people usually who are still erotic and sexually together at 80 know how to deconstruct sex because they've just had to

Over time, the body parts might not work because of illnesses or medications or things that happen. And if they're really still got it for each other, they will find a way to enjoy eroticism more broadly defined. So when you take out the death, like orgasm as sort of like the end of a sexual encounter, are what we're really talking about is intimacy?

Is this just a physical intimacy? It could be intimacy, it could be connection. Rosemary Besson, the Canadian woman whose work is so really paradigm shifting,

Her end, one of her end goals, she would say, is more like satisfaction. But it's not just physical or sexual satisfaction. It can be emotional satisfaction. So many times I'll say to people, look, you have at least three different models out there of narratives what sex is. You could say desire, desire.

Ending an orgasm, that's the more traditional one. Okay, nothing wrong with it. If it works, you're great. If it works for both, you're great. But there are two other ones. One starts with willingness and ends with pleasure. And another one starts with like a willingness, Basson would say, but ends in satisfaction, which could be like connection, like emotional connection. So some partners could say, I had a great time with sex Saturday night. And I'd say, good, tell me about it. They didn't get aroused. They didn't have an orgasm.

They touched, they did a lot of touching, kissing, hugging. Maybe their partner got aroused, maybe their partner came. And for them, the enjoyment and the true kind of pleasure, as Emily might say, right, to see their partner be pleasured and have an orgasm. So also we talk about in the work that you don't have to always have reciprocal sex every time you do it.

That's also a burden. Many couples don't have sex because one of the partners may not want to, let's say, be up for an orgasm or even be able to experience arousal that easily. So they might opt out and have nothing. And wouldn't it be great if one person would pleasure the other one? That could be complete that night. And it doesn't have to mean everybody has orgasms both time or everybody even gets aroused at the same level both times. So to be able to be more fluid that way is a real resource for couples.

In the couples that you work with, is desire or initiation, better word for this, is initiation usually done by a gender over another gender? Is there a biological reason for that? Is it a cultural reason? Is it... Because it strikes me, and I don't know, right? Right. Because I don't counsel people. Right.

But it strikes me as that the males would initiate more than the females. And then what happens in the gay male couple? I have no idea. Yeah. Help me. Two males, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it really is. Probably most sex therapists would say it's more socially constructed than biologically determined, even though, yes, but.

but cisgendered men have more testosterone in their systems than cisgendered women, let's say. There's a hormonal difference, which can contribute to levels of desire, because testosterone is sort of the desire hormone. And if you have more of that, maybe you might initiate more, because you could feel more, quote, horny.

But who really initiates or enjoys it? Because people do. Some people really like both. They like to initiate and they like someone to initiate and be more receptive, right? So some people like both, just like people could like to be a top or a bottom, it's called, right? Take more power, be more aggressive, let's say, or be more receptive or surrendering. Same with initiation. Some people like both roles and would like to share it with a partner.

Other people really like being the initiator. They just really enjoy it. And others really like being the one who is pursued. It can break down by gender because certainly our gender scripts talk about narratives are very much right. The man pursues the woman. You know, it's a very old one. The caveman hits her over the head, drags her into the cave. Although that most, a lot of younger folks I'd work with and people who are more gender fluid, non-binary say that's all, those are old scripts.

And feminists have said that, you know, in the feminist movement was like they wanted more sexual agency. They want more. They want to be able to call their shots. And if they're with men, they'd like their men to be able to submit or surrender and to be able to play with power in a way. And for them to feel it. Some women love strapping it on and doing their men anally if they would let them. You know, there could be all these different kinds of ways to.

play with power and to and I think initiation is there's power in both positions though. I don't think just the person who initiates really has more power. Some people might argue it's actually the person who's seducing the other or plays the other part that has power. But there are gendered scripts and some people buy into those unconsciously.

and it doesn't work for them. And one of the secrets they may share with me might be, this isn't working for me. Some men, let's say, might say to me alone, heterosexual men, I don't like being the initiator all the time, but I feel like my wife or my girlfriend would think I'm less of a man or she might not be as attracted to me.

if I don't always initiate. But personally, I would be happier. That might be a big secret he has to tell me individually that hopefully I could bring into the couple therapy and talk about.

And then maybe that woman actually wouldn't mind sharing it too, but she felt he's not, there's so many secrets that couples could be burdened with and they don't share it with each other. They can be under false kind of assumptions that the partner really needs to maintain a certain type of gender script that actually they can be more fluid about. That's Suzanne Ayasenza, episode 75, rewriting relationship narratives. Last up,

I want to include a conversation from a guest who is not a professional relationship expert, but instead is a leader in the world of business. Kat Cole appeared on episode 117 to discuss her rise from waitress at Hooters to where she sits now as the president and COO at Athletic Greens. And near the end of our conversation, she discussed her marriage with her husband,

I'm often curious about how the strategies people use in their personal lives can make them better business leaders, especially when they strive to improve their communication skills and empathy. In the case of Kat, she and her husband have monthly check-ins with each other to maintain healthy lines of communication and connection and reassess what they appreciate in one another.

When we first met, we were both out of long-term relationships. He was out of his last one for about a year. I was out of mine for about six months. Neither of us were planning on finding romance, long-term commitment. And we met each other and, you know, it was pretty instant.

And because we very quickly appreciated what we had found in each other, we both acknowledged that in our previous relationships, even though we were so happy they didn't work out because we found each other, that we actually had a role in the devolution, that's a word, of our previous relationships. And that I couldn't remember in my previous long-term relationship ever saying or thinking, I want to be a great partner.

I remember thinking, I want to be a great human. I want to be an awesome leader. I want to be a great business person. And I'm really happy with this person. I don't remember ever prioritizing my role as partner at home in an intentional way. And my now husband said the same thing. And we both quickly came to the conclusion that we want to be different this time. And we want to be as good, if not better, at home as we are in business.

And so then the question was, well, how do you do that? And the answer was intentionality. And he had read an article about a couple that had a tradition of having champagne on their month of bursary, no matter where they were in the world. And that was the inspiration for doing something on our month of bursary. And we ask each other a series of questions back and forth.

The first question is what's been the best part of the last 30 days? And the answers need to be related to the relationship. If they affect the relationship, but are about work or something else, that's okay. It's just what affects us? What's been the worst part of the last 30 days? What is one thing I can do differently to be a better partner for you?

It's sort of like my three questions, but for business, what's something I should stop? What's one thing I could start or something that you really want to make sure I continue? Next is what has worried you the most related to our relationship in the last 30 days? What have you been the most grateful for? What are you most proud of? And then we'll typically ask a question about goals related to the family.

and that is every month we do a little tiny version every week that's a bit more tactical functional schedule oriented but that discussion of asking each other with the desire to go deep and a challenge to the other person if they're being on the surface like the last part of the the best part of the last 30 days is just being with you right you can't get away with that you have to it's why the questions are what they are they force

the extremes and something can be the worst and not be that bad, right? It's just the worst. And so we have done this every month.

since we met. It has been an incredible enabler to our relationship and then reverse engineered it to have a similar practice for my business. It was rooted in one-on-ones that I already had with my team, but my one-on-ones with my team got better as my check-ins with my husband became more refined and consistent.

Is there a particular bit of feedback that you've received from your husband that was hard for you that you'd be willing to share and completely understand if you don't want to do that? No, no, no. Most of it hasn't been hard, but I want to think of one that has been more emotional. I mean, I remember after the second miscarriage.

And in our check-in, it became apparent that I had been acting as if it was much, much worse for me than it was for him. And not that he was saying it was as hard or harder on him. It was just apparent. He made it clear that my processing was different than his processing and that he was much more devastated than I had realized. Because he talked about when we asked the, what's been the worst part of the last 30 days?

it was all he would talk about. And he didn't say, "You've been belittling my grieving." He didn't say that. It was apparent to me that what was lasting, it's like whatever shows up at the end of the 30 days, and we do review the calendar because it's helpful. The 30 days is a long time. Whatever makes it to that one question,

is relatively momentous and actionable. And when all he talked about was that this was sad and this was difficult. And I realized that I was not, and I didn't criticize myself for it. It was just real, you know, that I was not recognizing how he was thinking about and processing this loss. And it was so helpful because it allowed me to then ask questions. And I was much more

sensitive and probing in the weeks that followed. It was really powerful. And there've been a few moments like that, that actually, I would say the common theme of when I'm hearing something difficult has to do with moments where we process something very differently and we're moving so fast in our lives. I didn't realize it until we paused to have the conversation.

That's a beautiful answer. Thank you so much for your time today. You are most welcome. Thank you for traveling right across Canada to sit and talk with me. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you. Okay. It was fun. Thanks. Thank you so much, Esther. This was a real pleasure and a treat. And I had a great time with our conversation. Wonderful. Thank you so much. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Farnham Street.

I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to. Email me at shane at fs.blog. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog slash podcast. To get a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe or check out the show notes. Can you do me a small favor? Go online right now and share this episode with one friend who you think would love it. Thanks for listening and learning with us. Till next time.