The Architecture of Scale | David Segal | #192
01:11:36 Share

There is no shortcut for the work period. There is no magic pill. There is no magic lizer.

It's about habits. You have to do things even when you don't want to do them. You have to get up and go for that run even though you don't want to. I mean, is really easy when you have had ten hours of sleep and and it's the sun is shining and its and its warm outside is really easy to go for that run or or or put on that smile or whatever is that's that's very easy. Where is hard is is when you know you had six hours of sleep and you're not feeling great and you're feeling slugging and and that's actually when you need to do IT.

Welcome to the knowledge project to podcast about master ing, the best of what other people have already figured out so you can apply their insides to your life and my host shame part a quick favor to ask before we start moves people listening on apple podcast or spotify haven't yet hit the follow button. If you can hit the follow about now, I would appreciate IT. The more people who follow the show, the Better the guess we can get.

Thank you and enjoy the conversation if you'd like access to the episode before everyone else, my thoughts, ts and reflections at the end of episode des member only episodes, hand edited transcripts. Are you just want to support the show you love? Join IT F, S.

Stop log slash membership. Check out the show notes for a little today. My guess is David segal. David started David t. And grew IT to over two hundred million in annual sales.

Before stepping away, David, I first met the summer of twenty twenty on a lake and quickly realized we had a lot in common. We started running together a few times a week, chatting him of business in life. Those runs helped me during coit more than he could down.

Many people like to dream about what they would do if they didn't need the money. And for dave, the answer was to start fires belly t with his good friend. Hardly thinker's team. However, as you're hear, he's doing a few things differently than he did at David state.

We discussed the lowest point in his life and how he overcame starting and growing a business to two hundred million, the empty ness he felt after walking away from David key and then watching IT flounder, starting fires, belly tea and what he's doing differently and so much more. Before I met dave, I wasn't really a tea drinker. I mean, I double occasionally with tea bags in finding grocery stores, but never really found IT tasted that great.

In fact, I remember telling him that always tasted a bit like there were some think chemicals in IT. And I remember where we were, we were writing under a bridge, and he stopped and he looked at me. He just certainly grab my shoulders and stopped me from learning.

And he said, you've been drinking the wrong team, my friend and IT turns out what I was testing was a combination of poor quality t preserve tips and additives that are in most teas. The next day there was a slew of T O, my door step, and i've been drinking IT ever sense. In fact, my kids and I now make a pot of fireball lies after dinner, meet nearly every night as we wind down.

Not only does that help them sleep Better, but it's a great ritual for us to connect and chat a little bit about the day you'll walk away from this conversation inspired by dave stories, learning a lot about the real messiness of running a business in the weeds and wanting to try some fire beling. To that end, dave was kind enough to offer all fs lima's fifteen percent of all orders at fireball ly. Just go to fireballs tea dot com and use the discount code shared fifteen. It's time to listen and learn.

Some of my favorite brands are on chop fy, including gym shark, Albert O A socks and airport ss shop fight is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. IT doesn't matter if you just have an idea or already Operate a multi million dollar company shop, fy is there to help you grow every step of the way because businesses that grow, grow or op fy.

What I love about trapeze is that it's like you have a multibillion dollar tech team working just for you from day one. If you're just starting, this means you can go from idea to store in a few minutes, but that also means if you're an existing company, you can save money and time. If you've ever checked out from a store and thought that was so easy, chances are IT was shot by, which is the internet best converting check out up to thirty six percent Better compared other leading commerce platforms. Go to shop fy dotcom flashing now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Won't start with what's the biggest lesson you've learned over the past year and why really .

that entrepreneurship is, in many ways, a personal journey disguised as a business pursuit. What I mean by that is so much of IT is managing your own psychology. And I really talks about playing the long game, right? But these are said than done.

There are so many swings to the game when your building businesses, there's the lows are so low, the hides are so high as well, and is learning how to be able to tolerate those laws. So I started this podcast with with a hardly functional steins president shop. Really good of both of us.

We interview, these were both jewish. We interview these old jewish guys who don't have a social media presence there, all of them over seventy. And they had these incredible careers and had enormous impact, not just building businesses and becoming incredibly successful, but also in giving back to their communities.

And and their film throp c efforts podcast called big shot. And they talk about the swings, the ops, the downs, their career. But it's in montages, right? Like it's it's like watching a hollywood movie, you know something that is actually two minutes is actually five to ten years and IT IT feels like a lot longer when you're in IT living IT. And so I really, over the past year, have really put a lot of emphasis in trying to manage my own psychology and get Better at when I have a crappy day or crappy weaker crappy month.

Not having an action bias for making big decisions or just being able to kind of brought in my scope and my perspective and look at IT over the course of time and really trying only make major evaluations when I in a good place tally and only on A A more A A longer uh period of time, maybe once a year, to sort of take stock of where I am veris. Well, I would like to be yeah and and be able to take a broader lens and not feel the laws as much as I I sometimes do or the highs I mean, it's hard not to feel the highs, right because he feels good. So, uh, it's nice to celebrate, but you celebrate with the high five and .

then go to how do you learn how to do that that like managing your psychology that such an important journey for every entrepreneur, for every person yeah but nobody really teaches .

us how to go about doing that. We don't talk about that at all, certainly not in school, right? Look, I mean, it's really hard to do.

I'd love to sit here and tell you that i've master IT. I'd like to think i've gotten Better at IT. I think taking Carry yourself matters.

Uh, one of the reasons I love tea so much as I think IT plays in to that lifestyle, it's you know in the world worths where there are so many uh highlight rials and different products that will make you think you're going to walk through walls and promise you the moon t is this product that has been around as old as the hill. I mean it's been part of humanity for so long. It's drank in regions of the world where people live the longest.

It's been studied for decades ah not years, but decades by similar top institutions in the world uh and and I like the connection tea gives me to history uh and not only the feeling that IT gives me you know great Green tea or a great hurdle t in the evening, but I think that's part of B M of the major psychology is is routines and rituals. Uh I think another piece of IT for me is is mindfulness and and meditations played a big role in my life. I've been doing IT now for well over five years.

I do IT consistently, and I really IT IT makes a huge difference. IT comes my nervous system down. IT allows me to get a bit bit of distance. I mean, it's is remarkable what ten minutes of breathing can do yeah and I exercise a lot and and I try and take care of myself and I try have a good time, you know life short and and I think it's important to celebrate on friday nights.

I'd like to remind myself um just how much I have and how lucky I am and really really taken um really appreciate my life uh and and taking all the good in my life, I think that's really important. You know when monday comes around, it's like, it's like war, right? You in the trenches, you're driving hard, driving with a sense version.

Cy, I am trying to build and trying to build companies. My wife always say, like, isn't there something good going on? And and and I like, well, there is IT is the good comes on friday I did when I in the moment and i'm trying to build, uh, I need to focus on how to improve.

And so I become hypercritical of myself. I sort of let that sense of urgency take over and and let the feeling of we're not doing enough said in um and then within reason, try to temper that so that you know I don't come off too strong with your team around you. You don't end up trying to to move something forward that Franklin just needs time h in order to progress.

Sometimes that's a case, right? Sometimes the best action is no action. But then friday nights is really important, I think, to sit back, enjoy, uh, smile, you know, give you your kids a css, uh, uh, you know, think about how how fortunate we are, uh, and really appreciate your life.

You step back and step away. I have a saying that you reminded me of when you are talking, which is a lack of patients changes, they will come. And sometimes when you try to get something faster than IT naturally should happen. You actually end up in a worst place?

absolutely. I mean, certainly in businesses and on building, I like to truly measure progress on an annual basis. I think that's the time to do IT. Did you get Better this year? VS, VS last year.

Did the business grow this year? VS last year, you may not be at the place you want to be, but did you progress? And i've been in situations where I had to say, no, he didn't progress. And and I was in a busy in my career where I had to a, you know, wave the White flag. And so I felt.

talk to me. But the annual thing versus daily, how do you use that? You do action daily. How do you set that and sort of measure progress and consistency while keeping your eye on the annual sort of timeframe when .

you're building a business, the the amount of decisions you have to make is coming out your mile minute. IT can be like trying to drink through a firehouse. I think you develop an intuitive sense of IT. I don't know that I that I consciously sit there and think of every decision and ask myself, as is a monthly decision, a daily decision decision, I think I I usually ask myself, uh, without consciously doing this, two things.

One, is this something that I can recover from easily? Meaning, if i'm wrong about this, what's the impact of IT? Two, what's the risk of doing nothing and waiting for more information more often than not, the answer is wait and get more information.

Certainly on big decisions like to go in a different direction with the product to dev in in a big way from your marketing efforts are usually there is is trying get more information, try get more information, try get more information, things like you are a stock and you ve got a pressure supplier to ship IT faster. That's where the sense of urgency comes in. And you're really, you know, we started to pound the table and get people moving.

And there's a lot of those, right? There's a lot of little decisions in a day where if we can do a little bit more to you, ship that extra order, handle that, that last customer service request those add up. So those small things where a sense of urgency allows you to offer Better service, Better product, become Better what you do.

Those are the small things, right? And and those things, I think you do want to have a an incredible sense of emergency around the bigger things like, you know should we be selling this product or that product or presenting the brand this way or that way? I think those things you you want analyze more on, on monthly basis or quarterly basis or in some cases in annual.

So it's like daily. You wanted focus on the micros that move the needle, but totalizer you step back, you focus on the .

more micro percent, right? I mean, any any successful entrepreneur, you that you gotta in the details. I mean, over the time, as the business grows, you develop a team that you trust to be in the details.

But even then, it's it's trust but verify. Here's a great example like what is air canada, delta airlines or american airlines? It's not the CEO.

Nobody thinks about the CEO and they think of these airlines. People say, oh, that airlines the worst, right? I mean, I really likes airlines.

What are they really saying you? They're not saying most couldn't have to tell you the C E. O is of the mansion temari.

They are saying that that individual person that I deal with that the customer service counter is IT was was not nice to me who didn't leave with a great feeling or or or didn't didn't help me with what I needed helped in that moment. You know the business happens at the transaction level. Any business that's where IT happens, where the money is exchange for the goods.

And I think often the bigger the company gets, we kind of forget that. But really, that's what IT is. I mean, it's it's it's a series of small transactions to add up, but you need to continually get good at those small, small transactions.

No small transactions often require urgency. You know, I used to sell running shoes in high school, and I loved IT. I worked at a company called athletes, which is the equivalent of fault locker.

okay? And I just loved IT. I love the product knowledge. I love learning about the shoes, know my sense of emergency and making sure every customer was helped before they walk out the store. I got paid on commission.

So, and I was sixteen years old, I think I made twelve box now at the time, and minimal wage was like five. So I thought I was rolling in the door, right? But I I Operated with urgency.

I there was no customer that left the story without me talking to them. There was I was all over IT and I have sold everyone. I was more into IT. I I cared about a more I spoke to more customers in a day than they would.

But that's what a business is, is how do you get the people on the front lines Operating with urgency to add value to the customer and do that over, over again. And I think that's where the urgency really plays in. Is is out of creating that culture where people care about their work and care about the customers that are dealing with enough to service them a quickly, efficiently.

Can you make somebody care? Or do you hire people that naturally care at .

a mentor they used to talk about this. He call IT wills of skill. Sometimes they have scale, but they the will, and sometimes it's vice verso. You get people who really care and and work really, really hard, but can't really move the neocles acy just don't have the scale.

You can teach scale more than you can will I do I do believe that you caring about your work is something that no one can teach you what to do. But I think sometimes you develop the the bug for IT, right? If you you develop a love for what you do over time.

Um so sometimes I think this is about patients. You know I don't know that anybody can can teach you how to have a Spark and and a sense gencer, but I do think you can cultivate someone Spark and ency, but ultimately on the person themselves to to really tap into what makes them get up in the morning. I want to achieve .

you mention details. One of the commonalities I find between exceptional people who have done exceptional things is there are always in the week, and yet there's the sort of cultural backlash against being in the details, and everybody sort of wants to manage with obstruction, right? Talk to me about learning about the details and being in the weeds and why that's important to you.

Well, I mean, he goes back to where where you're just talking about, which is which is not want to have every tower strom where where you run a business uh, and you're not connected your customers where you're sitting in an ivery tower somewhere issuing decrease. Having said that, IT is a baLance. One of things I learned building, David t was the difference to running a malicious s is running an army.

When you have a small company and you're running, it's like a militia, right? Like, you know, you got five stores and you want to run a sale or you you want to do some kind of marketing campaign or or whatever is that you're trying whatever initiative that you're taking on and you have a meeting and you say, okay, let's do IT and and it's super easy because, you know you say turn left and everyone hears you the malicious, just five of you right? Or ten of you or whatever everybody turns left.

But when the company grows, become like an army. And when you say turn, you get broken telephone if you don't have the right processes and procedures. So I think what you stand for as a company should should never change, but how you do things as a company should never stop changing.

And I do think as a company scales is really important to understand how to put in place the right processes and procedures, not to stay for creativity or to stay for the people. You want to mpower the people on the front lines and make sure that they can still make independent decisions. I mean, we've all experiences a customer.

There's nothing worse and hearing, i'm sorry that our policy, you know you you don't allow the people on the front to think for themselves and and they become robotic about how they deal with people that often times of beginning in the end. But you do want to have processes, procedures to be able to facilitate the flow of information to and from the front lines effectively, so that you are able to connect the weeds without sort of jumping and not allowing people to spread their wings and fly. And I think it's a delicate bounce, right? You as a leader, you want to be have your finger on the pulse and and understand what's going on at the the lowest level of your company where customers are interacting with your team or your products. But you also don't want to micro manage to the point where the people who you empower to to do the job aren't able to do IT and be celebrated for their own successes, uh, or learn from their own failures.

Where did your drive come from? Like, what would you like as a kid? IT seems very abNormal. That is sixteen year old that footlocker would be so driven and motivated. I loved IT.

I I loved working from a very, very Young age. I was a bit. My wife says this about my son and I I think I was the same way.

I was a man of action with no plan. I remember I really wanted to skating in our backyard. We are like this tiny little backyard. And my parents are like, no. So I was really stumped.

I'd go, and i'd start taking little like the sour cream container, uh, i'd washed IT out and put water and and start dumping IT on the lawn and dumping IT on the lawn. And my parents are watching me do this, and they're thinking, what is he doing? But I kept doing IT.

I kept doing IT. And for hours on end, i'm dumping one little sour cream container with the water on the back line. And my, finally, my fathers, like this is crazy.

The kids never gna build a drink this way. And, you know, but then they started helping me, and then my brother started helping. And then here we are, his family, uh, with our hoses out there, spring the the back.

Lang, sure enough, we have getting rank on. And as a bit like that, as a kid, I mean, I wanted to work before I was allowed to work. Uh, I had a paper route, a very Young age. I went on and I worked at when days I was the fry guy.

I think the breaking point for me, you as I had to take out the garbage, I was a small little fourteen year old, so you had to throw over the fence, right, to get IT into the bin. They had the the guard for the animals that sort of fence around the garbage bins. And I I couldn't quite get IT over the fence and so teeter on the top of the wall.

And I came down on my face and I was like, that's IT. That's how about to hear. And I I think I was proud of the Youngest person they hired at athlete, which is like the foot locker. I wrote my resume. I I banged on a lot of doors, and that was just who I was.

Were you like in school?

I didn't take school all that seriously until later. I mean, I knew I had to do well enough to get into a good university. But for me, university, I was excited to go to go socialized and have a great time.

Um IT wasn't until met my wife where I really got IT together. I mean, I got into a great program. I wanted to be the university.

But SHE SHE SHE studied hard. I mean, he became a neuropsychologist harvard educated and know SHE bought at the best of me. I on by my fourth year, I became an understood and and I started to work a lot harder .

because you wanted, do impressor.

I think if I wanted to hang out, I had to go to the library. Oh, no. I mean, he was in the library.

So yeah, I mean, I wanted to see her. I wanted to be with her. So I kind of just just follow her.

And SHE SHE didn't you know SHE didn't ice to go out a lot and and and and party party too much, but he wasn't in of that. So, you know, SHE mattered more than me than party. So I ended up hanging, and I was her more often. And SHE brought out some Better habits.

What was your, what is your kitchen small leg on like friday night night growing up?

I mean, I had a very regular upper middle school middle ass up bringing my mom had a uh a few different jobs with a teacher of the kids for a while that he became an artist. My dad was a psychologist and uh I was started working at at to hospitals and then had his own private practice work very, very hard. Uh, I I certain ly learned my work ethics from my dad.

He was up at at five forty five every day. First patient was at seven. Last patient was six. Uh, never took a lunch break.

We always said friday it's were dramatically different than than wednesday night night we we because my dad didn't really travel for business, we always had family dinners, uh, and they're really nice growing up. I mean, I was very lucky at my grandparents in my life. They would, I guess, come over on friday night night and and we'd often barbecue a lot, a lot of stake.

This before red me, we knew red me was isn't so great for you. And so big stake family, we do lost taken. I do a something. I am I A nice family around me but entrepreneurship and business wasn't really that you know is interesting.

I had this extended family in montreal who had been very successful business uh and I had this rich history um that I really wasn't in touch with at the time. Education was certain ly strongly encouraged but no, I didn't have access to ceos and to to uh taibi business people in my life. Early in my life, I started to meet them. Later in my life once I went to montreal and went to my girl and started meet some my extended family.

Once you learn more about your extended family and its history of entrepreneur ship and making fortunes, losing fortunes, remaking them, yeah, did you feel more like you fit in more?

The way the stories as I got older, the way the stories were told to me was like an epsom succession. You know, my my, my family build business called peerless y and you know, IT was filled with this one being mad at that one, not talking to this one and feeling slided. And IT was basically a three brothers.

The oldest one started IT with the dad. Uh, the middle one h came in with the elder one and was kind of the inside guy. The other one.

Then once he had made IT, decided to go to japan. And in those days, you much in japan, I was like born voyage, right? Like there was no, we're talking were in the forties and fifties right now.

And so my my grandfather got brought in h he was a tall uh salesmen type guy and right the business was not doing well that time and and they brought IT back h together. And purely clothing for for people listening was the manufacturer. They're still around today.

It's was quite a large business. They manufacture clothing for you peer car, then you go boss and calvin kan. And when my grandfather ended up, uh, the middle ther a died and there was a fight of shares. And long story short, the son of of of my my grandfather is all this brother who was adopted, came in around the business and actually didn't incredible job with IT and and took IT to a whole new level and his end was quite A A successful businessman, philanthropist.

Uh and then from that another a cousin of mine, my that first cousin when often started to a company called lish to which for years he basically brought the carney street love to canada so I became very close with him once I had went to a gill didn't really know him that well before that and later in life he ended up backing me and David's team we built IT together um but yeah I sort of learned about the stories and and I would say my lateen sort of as I was getting ready to go to a kill and then I would hear stories about my my great grandparents who came over with nothing where pedlers in the countryside of quebec and one of my my grandmother's father built up a big will's business in in and then lost IT all in the great depression, buying on margin like everybody else and then made IT back. My grandma used to tell stories about going to school in a carriage and having to quit school the next day and walk to the factory. No kind of thing um so I did grow up with these stories later in life, but my my entrepreneurship came in before that. I think those stories is validated for me and and and had me even more excited for my my a my entrepreneurship reer .

head talked me about David t where did so so i'm guessing ying, like after university you followed him a .

little boston? No, so I didn't get in a bus in much later. We had a lot of up and down together.

Emily didn't get into her her P. H. D.

Program at first and was gonna to do something else and then decided to wait and reapply to me. Gill, A P. H.

D. And then got in. So we were in much all after we both graduated ago. We, we were living together in a tiny basement apartment in montreal. And I started a concept called fitting room central. Well, most my friends went off to uh golden sex or proto gam um I I developed so because I had worked I worked in the buying department shadow for a few summers and I I sold as a time running shoes and clothing a little bit as well.

So I understood that business, uh, certainly at A A base level, and I developed the concept call fitting room central because when buyers would buy clothing, remember when when you're in clothing, anything with inventory, your biggest risk, your inventory by right? You you you're deciding what to buy in the season. You're hoping itselfbut, you're deciding advance.

You know what you think people are going to like so often? What large clothing companies will do is the test. So they're have a hundred store company, let's say, buy for five or ten stores and see how cos there before you take the inventory risk of of buying for the the rest of the stores.

And we would have these buying meetings where they are evaluating these tests and they d evaluate whether something sold or IT didn't sell. But they're no idea why I was selling, why IT wasn't. Everybody would speculate on that. So I developed a system h for the fitting room. The idea being, when you try on, when you buy clothing, you actually do in two steps.

First, if you evaluate the look of something on your, sorry, the look of something on the rack, then you evaluate the fit of that item on your body, right? What we thought IT is, hey, if we can capture the convergence of the fitting room, we will be able to tell you if someone's been tried on a lot, but it's not converting the fitting room, you might want to check the fed and vice versa. Something is not being tried on a lock.

But when IT does try get tried on IT, IT sells well. You know, the fits great, but the look may be off. IT was a little bit ahead of its time.

We were talking two thousand and five, right? But you think about commerce businesses today, this is exactly what we do, right? We've monitor traffic and conversion. And then we had ways of capturing the feeding room, being this point of interaction with the customer. You can capture feedback.

Interesting idea, right? Everybody you tell that to and i'm sure many your listeners like I sounds interesting like interesting a great word in a classroom, but it's a terrible word in business. Uh, you know you want to hear things like when can you deliver and we would I was really good to getting these meetings with fires IT at maces or Victoria secret or the gap.

I'd d read these handwritten letters to less wax NER of limited brands and and i'd get a response in and we'd have all kinds of meetings, but I tend progressed enough, you know, was a nice to have none and must have and I just wasn't going anywhere. And you know i'm sitting in this basement apartment while most my friends are starting to to uh, accelerate their careers and my wife with my girlfriend at the times, like okay enough. Like you know you you don't make any income, you need a job.

So I, I, I decided to call a quitt, which is with a heavy heart. And I approached my dad's cousin, who had started with shared this clothing business that had become very big in canada. And he was looking to take a step back from that business.

He was in seventies at the time and um he says, look, i'll all i'll started a little private equity shop and you will come help me and I said, great and I think he pay 你来 forty thousand dollars I mean in ominous salary and uh， I figured, uh, you sort of fake IT to you make IT. I bought a book. I bought what warm buffer looks for an investment.

I'm going to be invested. I should learn the teeth thing, kind of click for me. You know, I always like tea, certainly growing up.

Uh, I was never a coffee guy, and I remember being in a tea shop in montreal, uh, off of, uh, same to ney, which is a really cool street, three asian inspire tea house. And we went in and I started to think to myself and like, wow, you know, there is no size, no color. Like, there isn't fashion.

IT doesn't go bad, like a turkey sandwich, IT leaves in a cup. And the margins are good. You can Operate our small spaces, and we call anything you put in. The hot and cold water is not coffee tea in north america.

So it's like cooking, right? The the combinations of what you can create our endless is a warm buffet business we should do to and we sort of looked around for one to investing. I got more, more into IT. I started to develop a love for the products.

Finally, I think I, either I turned my cousin or he turned to me, and I said, look, let's just do IT ourselves, like all build IT in your back, me and and IT was a great combination of youth experience, right? Like the way I like to describe IT is without him, I probably would have ten, fifteen stores today without me at zero. So IT really worked out well.

And the way we went, we open the store on queen street and IT IT didn't work at first, I mean, to sort of worked. And but IT really took a bit of time. I remember the summer I got married, which is about a year at four stores.

IT was about eight months after we started, a year after we started and IT wasn't going that grade. I mean, we weren't doing well enough that summer for the business to to survive. I was really worried about IT, but then, you know, we just kept getting Better and Better at IT and and IT just IT IT finally caught and people start to get into IT.

And I think what we did that was very different. We took a commodity and we are commoditized IT. When you think about tea, you know, it's an incredible drink. That's the second biggest drink in the world next to water.

Just ironic in north amErica will not die into IT, but it's this timeless ritual that everyone has a tea story from when they were Younger, uh, somewhere in their family, someone like tea. And with with David sea, we created this sensory experience in the store where you come in and your smelling tea and your tasting tea and you're talking about tea and IT begins. Very unique experience. And I think that's one of the reasons that worked and and um yeah really .

grew from there. How many stores did you go end .

up with when I sold my stake? And David, in twenty sixteen, we had two hundred stores, about two hundred million sales by thirty million and eba. I was pretty nice business.

I doesn't feel not to watch that flounder.

Not great. And I I I actually tried to buy back at one point with being capital. I've moved on. I mean, I I wish you'd well and and i'm very excited about what we're doing the fireball, which is my new tea company. You know, while I was developing Davids tea, I I was had a private stash, right? What sold the David tea were these heavily flavor tea.

And I just with the market wanted, but my pilot developed because I I would drink IT every day, all the time, right? And and and I would travel these incredible t regions, and I I would be with our t blenders and and I learned, can I create amazing tea in the right combination of different ingredients? And as when I left, I started realized, well, no, I love tea.

I love creating tea and I love creating the products to go around with IT. I would create these tea collections from my friends. I mean, hardly um is the president shop five and a close friend? Uh, I got him really into tea because when I first made him is like, no, after drinking, wait too much coffee.

I'm not sleeping well, I get the gitter. I get headaches. And like, why aren't drinking Green tea in the afternoon? He said, I never thought of, my god, drink is amazing.

So it's a Better right. Oh yeah. Because most people drink the equivalent of a flagged for coffee, right? Coffee went through these phases where we went from first wave, the second wave, the third wave.

And people got fancy and fancy in the types of coffee they drink. And tea, in many ways, hasn't. You know, Davis tea made some headway and certainly had slightly Better product. But I think the really good stuff is still is still new to most people. And that's what fired belly has become about IT know security.

These collections for hardly and other ones of my friends, uh I brought some to you and and and got you and a little bit know as as we develop uh getting people into these amazing tea and and you know all of a sudden is drinking Green tea afternoon. No more headaches, no more gitter, because the caffeine tea is very different, right IT there's l thine in tea as well. So wherewith coffee get that big spiking crash.

You don't really get that in the same way with you. You get more of a sustained energy uh l thine modulates the impact of the caffeine on your in your blood in or on your body um and IT really creates A A A nice calm energy and a nice focus and then have herbals in the evening that are fantastic. Uh and whether if you want help sleeping or with digestion, whether it's ginger or and so the tears that we create with fire belly, we only use any these flavorings, which is kind of the secret, the tea business.

If you go a label hunting the grocery store, everything has you are natural flavor. Artificial flavor is not that will kill you, but a natural flavor just means that was derived from a plane or animal source. But IT ends up in a laboratory where about ninety percent of a goes into these flavors are preserved tips and actives to go unlisted on the label.

We have this all the time. They're they are not necessarily bad for you, but they create kind of a monotone flavorings like watermelon chewing gum, right? You get that birth of flavor but then dissipates h it's very similar with flavor tea when they're using flavorings.

Um well as you know instead using vella flavors at fire belly, we use real matic gas carvello. Uh we is really high quality ginger, really high quality to america. And and IT makes a difference, uh, in in the quality, the T N.

And so I think fie belly became sort of this brand where I got to create the tea I love and sort of share my private stash with the world. And then you know you can put IT for our engine in a win of bags. So we had to create the accessories to go with IT.

And so we created, you know, to stop infusion travel mug. Mean, you think about accessories, it's all designed for coffee drinkers. But like, I wanted to put tea drinkers first.

So we created this, this travel mug. You can stop and start the infusion with really high loose leaf tea. You can make harder ict. It's a hundred percent leak proof, its power code in metal. I mean, I I get obsessive about all these small details. So I have have been a lot of fun with IT and building up my my sort of chapter to act to and tea with fire belly.

I never really drank tea until I met you. And then now it's become like this nately ritual a with my kids, which is kind of weird. You think about IT, right? Like one of my kids favor tea is after dinner meant that you guys make yeah and he just loves that yeah like you have four, five cops at night and you know what is doing homework? Can you feel like you'll make a tea pot? He's thirteen.

My kids too. They get into IT, right because there are so many different caffeine freeze and so many different flavor profiles whether it's it's a sweet gender or a chocolate um or a really nice paper mm u coptic ity apple camel, right do so many different combinations so kids can get into IT to that's what sort of drove me to create fireballs.

Ys, and everyone, I would show really high body loose leaf tea to and and demonstrate how nice a tea ritual is would would continue on with IT. I mean, they get into IT. You know, I want to share this, everyone.

I really wanted to be some especially this isn't something you can find at the grocery store, right? Uh, h it's much higher quality than people are used to. And I think, you know, why not? He should have its time in it's it's such a it's so big in europe and other places in the world. It's just north amErica that for some reasons, a bit late to the party and and I I just think once they realize how amazing high quality to is IT IT has its place in our in our daily ritual.

The world is completely different now than IT was when you started to David very much. yes. So what are the differences you see in the tea space? What lessons can you take from David tea? And where is IT like harder? Now, in different to contrast IT.

when I started David t uh, there was no instagram. There is no shop. Fy, you had server rooms. And if you want to build a website, no, you call a website guy like, right? That's how we are.

Website found a friend of a friend who is usually a kid who knew how to build a website in H T M L. And the store of physical retail stories, much more about distribution. Then IT was discovery.

I was about both. But nowadays you don't need a store to distribute, right? Um e commerce was a tiny, tiny percent of the business back then.

It's exploded on the scenes now. So I was very different. I think the space is much more competitive now. There is a lot of products out there that claim lots and lots of benefits, but I think some of the fundamentals of building a business haven't changed.

So you know, everybody loves to to talk about what's changing and and disrupting and but I think it's also important to look at what doesn't change and having a great quality product doesn't change. And I like to put my energy into that. And one of things I love about tea that is so time T S been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and uh and drinking in cultures all over the world for different reasons.

IT has proven benefits versus somebody is other Price to come on the market that, that make claims that have not been study. It's obviously harder to compete with the fat dish. Ur, but I I want to build a hundred year company.

Uh I want I anna, build something that people can trust um um and that isn't going to waiver in some of the principles that that IT stands for. And so what we love about loose lifting is is a higher quality product. You get the whole leaf, you get to watch IT expand, get the full health benefits.

Uh IT becomes as pause in your day. And I think that's just that's what we're about. We're about. We've tend to attract people who are taipei. I mean, they are not so the entrepreneurs, but they're entrepreneurial and what they do, I think it's for people who are on the go who need a moment to themselves or or a social moment with friends.

I mean, tuesday night, you don't always want to have a alcohol, right? Like sometimes you just want to have A I can make your tea like have a great team, a great conversation. So I don't think those principles change in terms of David C.

I M. Davis. I was a fashion brand. IT was about smell like people were discovering, wow, you can have tea with vanilla and you can have tea with almond and the turns pink in your cap. There was one that strawberry and and this was very new, right and um and IT was all about about you know smelling IT and IT was such a new phenomenon that we went from array and mate and camin all these pleasure of flavors.

And I think with fireball ads a little bit different, we're saying, look, we don't do things that you can only do for with flavoring like we don't do P D because you can make a pd without flavor um but we do really high quality freeze dried barriers. And what he has changed about businesses, there's more than an opportunity to take a niche and really get a thousand true fans with IT. I think it's easier with modern day media to talk to you should so we want to be really good at serving a customer base, really cares about having an incredible t ritual, really high quality product and and really just focus on what we do best.

And I think I think that's a little bit different than how I used to be. I think it's easier to find your audience, uh, at scale than IT was. You weren't able to do that in two thousand and seven, right in the same way. I think that really changes how you think about the business.

And you're in physical location ons, maces and iron.

where an everyone at which is really high grocery store right now and I lakes, you know we don't want to be in in some of the more mainstream h grocers, but everyone really is a special place um where in blooming deals um we do some our gift to and create barrel yeah and it's mostly direct consumer. So why those Prices tea and makes a perfect gift, right? So we tend to perform well in we took our best sellers and put IT in airwolf.

Think irwin has a more discerning customer and appreciates uh uh really high quality lusia t so I think everyone works for us. And and we've been and we we've been one of the top performers in our category so far. And I think booming dales and create, you know their gift.

You you go there for Christmas to buy uh, Christmas gifts and t makes a great Christmas gift. And so all these great gift boxes with our our accessories ies and our tis together uh and and its sort of works really well there in november, december. When you think about IT, you can give tea anyone, you can give a tear mother, you can give a romantically, you can give a to a coworker.

IT really does make a great gift to mean the message you're sending. The person is, here's something that's good for your health and well being. Here's something that can be a break from your day, or I can be social with your family, your friends, your colleagues is a funny thing.

Everyone has to and are covered. But but I just sort of sits at the back and gathers dust. Uh, and I was one of the things with fire belly.

You know, we wanted to make sure that he was well designed. We originally put in these boxes that they're like books on a bookshelf. And we did that.

We wanted to be on your counter front and center uh and should look good to uh and so we we've approached IT from from that angle. We haven't approaches as a fashion product。 I mean, you know David's tea, that was a big thing, right?

Like it's spring, summer, a winter fall. It's like a new fall collection. A new spring collection is pumping this well.

Not like we don't really think about you that way. Like real teacher in english drink to you every day. Like it's fantastic. I like firebug lies of brand for 4 drinkers， for people that really love IT and and that's work service.

What failures have you had that you church the most up until this point?

It's funny. You know, I don't often think about my failures. They just become part of who I am uh, as I go forward.

But you know, if you afraid to fail, forget IT. Go get a job. Fail or takes on many forms, right?

There's failure in that IT. Just like, I failed. I didn't work. I was a failure.

And that happened to me when I started that finding room company right out of of college. And IT straight up did not work. I had to, uh, hang my head down and look my wounds to move on. And and you know, as is often in the case in life, you have to go down in order to go up a lot of the time.

And and I had to do that in that case, and I had to to IT IT, IT humbles you, I think, and I wore that one, uh, uh, in a big way, know, especially the time in life where everybody y's trying to flex in their advancement in their career, right? Young professionals, uh, here I was with this major failure. Rather, the and failure can also be in the form of its taking too long.

I think we often don't figure out his failures. But like mada dish, which is healthy fast food concept to have in canada, you know, we were we had figured that out for for the lunch market and we were accelerating in five day week office stores in the pandemic. And we almost went out of business and we were fAiling in in a big way.

Uh, and I had invested way more money than than I thought I would have to and I had taken far longer than I thought IT. Um but I wasn't working in and I almost stopped and we almost said, you know what, let's salad for ten cents on the dollar and move on. But we didn't and we stuck with IT and now it's in a much Better place and and we got Better at at the dinner menu.

We developed a two day part menu. So we got we got really good at the new science of that business, right? And we did that through failures. I mean, we just we kept fAiling. We failed on menu development, we failed on real estate, we took bad stores.

We we figured out what not to do to the point where here we are today, and I am very fortunate, have A A couple of partners in that business. Wonderful is the C. E.

O. The company is doing a credible job. Uh, I was to see you, the business.

And then when I started fire belly and I realized he is really where I wanted to go back to, he took over. He was our our head of Operations. He's done incredible job and another business started to grow again.

And we've become, uh, I think, the number one player in canada for healthy fast food. And and i'm really excited about the growth there. But we I mean, we failed.

I mean, no, we failed and we failed. We failed and we failed until finally, uh um we started to succeed. I mean, is a great expression.

A story told by one of our guests on big shot is this Peter maze and activist investors with Nelson pelz partner. He tells a story about going around and trying to market his first company, uh and and getting evaluation that was far below what they wanted. They're yelling at the investment bankers.

We just did this whole road show what you mean, not where facts, you know, we and the guy goes, kid, I can't make chicken salad at a chicken shit. And sometimes that's actually what you have to do. You have to make chicken salad and chicken shit.

And and that takes time and you have to fail. You have to be honest about the fact that you have chicken shit right now and and and really work on on somehow turning in into chickens eod. And and so i've had to do that a lot at me and even David t you know IT was a success, but a big success.

But then IT IT IT faltered uh, several times along the way. And and then when I left uh I mean fellow part you know I mean uh I sold my my stake in twenty sixteen and and you know today it's it's worth uh uh fraction of what I was in and the market moved on and the company missed IT. And and it's not easy. Business is really hard.

Uh, and that's why you know you have to be ready to keep showing up and you really have to love the journey of IT more than the end result because if if all you want is that moment where you you you make the big score or you like that moment you think you're going to have you bike the ball and you have that big score. Well, I actually went through around the biggest depressions in my life after I solved my mistake, Davids tea. I thought that's what I was playing for.

I thought I was playing for this big success where, uh, uh, you know, the other side of the rainbow and IT was great. I mean, I had financial independence for the first time in my life, but I lost, I lost my sense of purpose and I had no plan. I didn't think about the day after Davis.

Y, I was so busy trying to build IT. And we actually don't talk about this a lot uh, in entrepreneurship with, you know the struggle is so difficult to get to a place where you're successful. What happens once you're successful and what if you do sell your company? And now what right and how do you derive me in your life and and I mean, you're not just going to go play shuffle board.

And five years old, I went to a dark place in my life. And and and, uh, I didn't know to do that myself. And and and I took me a while to reinvent myself and and sort of tap back into the kid.

I was that know that love entrepreneurship and building businesses. I did. I did tap back into that that was, uh, a journey on its own, and in many ways, not preparing for life after David t was a failure.

Did you recognize that you are depressed? how?

Oh yeah, I was really depressed. Like, like I went through you. I I don't talk about this often, but I was, I was in a really bad spy.

And IT was a weird thing, like, I felt guilty about IT because like, well, what right do I have to be depressed? I just, I lived. I just had a dream that everybody plays for, which is and exit in in a major company and and financial dependence.

But I I was I was very said I I had some health issues. It's hard to know whether the health issues were from the from the depression or or distress of building IT or or you know what came first, the health issues of the depression. But no, I had to I had to develop Better habits, my lifestyle. I had to develop, uh, a Better perspective on life. And there is a lot of stress.

There is a fair mint of internal uh, a fighting in the company between my original partners, the private equity group IT wasn't an environment where everyone was just focused on the customer and adding value for the customer room and there a bit too much uh uh in internal conflict, which is one of the reasons I I felt there was time for me to move on. And I think I D D. Never had a chance to process all that and and deal with that.

And and I had to really understand, when IT no longer becomes about the money, you really have to think about what you're doing and what you're doing IT. You take away that factor that IT allows you to drowned out all the other things in life that are that are really important, like meaning and and being able to to really appreciate the journey. And and I didn't really understand those pieces in my life a early on, and IT just became a similar focus where how can I build .

this and make money? What would you say if somebody who's .

depressed in a there is no shortcut for the work period. There is no magic pill. There's no magic lizer. It's about habits. You have to do things even when you don't want to do them.

I I don't aware I I heard this story, but I think I was a guy who would survive the the internal camps during the war and where they were being tortured and and he said that he was the people who lost hope, that that didn't make IT IT was the people that had hope, but not expectations. They did, right? So they knew they get out of there, but they didn't have an expectation on when.

And I think depression is is like that as well. You you have to get up and go for that run, even though you don't want to do that twenty minutes sih meet, you know, breathing, exercise, even though you don't want to work on your eating habits or your your, you know, your your, your rituals, whatever they may be. I an, and it's all kinds of different rituals in their life.

It's important, develop. I am using the word ritual loosely here in routines, habits, whatever you want to call them. When you're in a dark place, they're even more important. I mean, is really easy when you have had ten hours of sleep and and it's the sun is shining and its and its warm outside is really easy to go for that run or or or put on that smile or whatever is like. You know that's that's what is easy.

Where is hard is is when you know you had six hours of sleep and you're not feeling great and you're feeling slugging and and that's actually when you need to do IT. The doing is what matters and life life just is like that. And um I I don't know that my father, you know I mean he he got up early and and stayed late and put in the work and there is no substitute for the work. My house you have to put in the .

work is so interesting is the parallels between sort of depression and being successful, your job, your career, life, they map each other, right? Which is like you have to do IT when you don't feel like a yes, and that's when that matters the most yes. And you sort of have to have that will cause everybody loses the bottle with willers routines, the rituals they Carry you through when you don't feel like doing that. It's like I don't feel like going on the palate thon today, but I do IT every day.

So I have to get on and go and make everyday day one. We have a habit beating ourselves up, right? The idea being compassionate with yourself is really important.

You miss a day. So what? Like in meditation, come back to the breath, come back to the breath and and you call rabbit holes.

You go down a rabid hole where you have these almost like black moments, where you, your mind just Carries you a thought when you first start meditating. Most people, when they first army day, they do the same thing. This is down for twenty minutes.

We don't do that down for like three minutes, for four minutes, for five minutes, like build up, right? You're building a muscle. You're building that, that focus muscle.

But when we have these sort of black of moments and meditation where our mind wonders and we don't even know where IT goes, then obviously we come back like, oh yeah, I wasn't focused on my breathing or whatever visual exercise I had. We have a tendency to beat ourselves up. Can't believe I, you know, you, you do IT mentally and we're human.

You'd gonna make mistakes. So you don't have to always get to write. You're allow to slip up, but just keep restarting. There is no moment in life where everything's just perfect like life is dynamic. It's not static, right IT, you're always renegotiating with yourself and and IT IT is an ever changing thing and I think is just how do you work on on bringing the right attitudes uh uh into at each every day.

I want to go back to twenty sixteen. You get this fairly big payday. Yes, what are the lessons that you wish you knew then about money that you know .

now first of all, money doesn't buy. Meaning number one, you have to money can help facilitate a lot of things, but you you have to know who you are and what you want. That's really, really important.

And that has nothing to do with money by nice things. Is is gonna be fleeting? I think we all know this intuitively, and yet so many people do this.

And i'm not saying don't buy nice things. It's always nice to buy nice things. But it's important understand that indian of itself is not gone to give you meaning a really nice car, nice watch or a nice house, whatever.

It's going to be cool for a minute, uh, eventually it's gonna away. I think I once hurt this from a friend. You know, the secret to life is something to do, someone to love, and something to look forward to.

Money can help facilties parts of that, especially the something to look forward to. But but you have to tap in deeper meaning on on what IT is, what gets you excited on an ongoing basis for each building businesses. But I wish coming out of the experience of of making money, becoming financial independent, I wish I taken a little bit more time to think about how I wanted to do that and where I wanted to do that.

I think I was a bit too. I felt I needed to get back in the game very quickly. I I think I I, I said an artificial time line, like I think sometimes we set these artificial tilde es with ourselves and it's very at least in my case, was my ego.

I felt I had to be back in or or I was going to be a one hit wonder, you know and and I mean, all that's B S, I mean, there is no one way. There is no one story. I am now in my my early forties and I we we love telling ourselves the stories of people that validate our narratives, right? Like, sound like so.

And then started. He was in his warn button, made most of his money after fifty five. Mean, all of these things are are just ways of telling ourselves that we have more life ahead of us. And the truth is we do. And there is no one way you can always find a story that validates your narrative. I think in someone that's kind of healthy and I think about IT now know I think you know you want to continue to reinvent t yourself and and not think of yourself as to all the now now I have these two businesses that are growing and and the call, I need to grow them fast because I only have this many good years.

I am entering my prime and the like, what are you? I mean, you know, who's to say? I mean there and the stories of people who do IT in their fifty, sixty, seventy, I mean, some in their days, right? So I think all of that everybody's unique and I think it's really important to forget about, you know, if you're playing for validation from others and you're playing for external success, um you you're never gonna have the full fulfillment that you get from your achievements in life.

And I don't know that I ve entirely overcome that external validation. I don't think I have, but I certainly work towards IT and really focus on more internal validation. I think coming out of David T, I wish I had coming out of of uh uh, big financial score, but having not done a lot of the work to understand myself and what I really wanted out of life, I wish, I wish I had been more prepared for that first thing I would have done.

I had gone a nice office. You know, I didn't have that. I, I, I stopped and I I didn't have any. I know where to go in the mornings, right? I went from having this big office with a hundred plus people who who you know with my name on the door and I walk in, I was important, right?

Like, and and then the next day i'm out and and you know i'm waking up and and now what and no one's running up to me anymore and and i'm not in this nice office. I think the first thing I would have down, I would got a really nice office. I I I think I have consulted with a lot more people that had been through that experience of having sold their company.

I was very thoughts about that. And and I I in retrospect um I mean, I became IT took me a little longer and I became more thoughtful about IT over time. But by the time I became more thoughts about that are I jumped into other things. And those, of course, take up your entire focus because once you you're in the game of building a business again, know you're trying to match swing the game and you're trying to go on A A run where you grow and and so you go right back into IT into the doing versus they are reflected.

you mention, warn about that. I know you're fan. What are some of the lessons you've taken away from him over the years?

The first one is is I I wish I had this this, uh, super power. Here's a guy who can make very few decisions, uh, but make them with so much conviction and then live in o mahn braska and like, go sit in a fishing boat while the world goes on around him I mean, you know talk about being able to overcome the action bias yeah, I just think that's incredible.

I mean, a lot things were talking about here today where how do you get to a place where you have internal validation and you can I don't care what others think. I mean, very few of us can say that that we don't care about what others think. Um I think he's one of them.

He really is one of them. I first read about warm buffet. Uh, at to start a David T, I was telling you the story.

I think he was buffalo logy I shading is is his daughter and liberal and so that was, I mean, we're going back on twenty years, right? And since that time I i've seen him go through waves where the world thought he was a dinosaur, right? Like when you book craft and and when the tech was really booming over bitcoin was super hot, right room like the sky of dinosaur.

He's out. He doesn't know anything. Well, turns out is not that he turns around.

He buys the japanese trading houses at at ten cents on the dollar. He makes another brilliant move. And he was just like, wow, he's done IT again.

I mean, I think before two thousand and eight a uh h he was another period in two thousand sixty thousand seven leading up to a very looked like a dinosaur bang. He's saving the financial world in america, making these investments. And thanks. And, you know, so I think I think what admire about the guy is is, you know, we have all these things in life.

I played a long learn how to how to sit with something, and it's really hard to do those things right, like it's all easier said than done and I think he's managed to be able to do them and and I also the other thing I admire about warm buffet is being able to express complex things in simple terms yeah like the mark twin saying, no, i'm sorry I wrote such a long letter another time rate short. When I was going to a gill, I I went into management and I realized very early on that I didn't know how to write. I was a terrible writer.

It's a sort of lost art form, and I want to learn the right. So I went in english lip at mega and I said, I ended a mining in a slit. IT was certain deputies because I met my wife in slit.

And but I also learned how to write. I rove for the new daily newspaper, and and and I really wanted to turn what was a weakness for me into a strength. And I became, you know, on above average, right? Know I am no mark twin, but i'd like to think I can, I can write a decently persuasive email or letter, and I got a really important scale set.

And where that comes in particularly helpful is how do you express a complex idea and simple terms? And no one h does this Better than warm buffet. I mean, you read his annual shareholder letters, and he does such a good job taking I mean, something is complicated as the energy industry or the railroad business and is stealing IT into a few tiredness principles and he does is with investing as a whole, right he teaches us how to have a perspective on investment, on investing that um that will sustain you through a lifetime.

I wish I had his patients. I never will share, not who I am. I think one of the difference factories for him is how how rarely he actually moves on something and makes decisions. He sits on things longer than most. Uh and I think I think that's a rare quality.

How do you fit everything in? I mean, you have an incredible way of three kids ah two businesses that you're running and .

the cast growing.

And I think a couple of things you know.

I think getting up early is very important. I don't really know many extremely successful people who don't get up early. I like to work mornings.

I'd like to turn my phone off at a certain point in in the evening. And I know this is not really weird, but I actually I bought this thing that I can put my phone in the locks IT. It's a little cubby for my phone and I put IT in now around nine, nine thirty and and is locked.

And of course at first as as well, if my know my parents a bit older, what if something happens, or or I need to ana sit, you know, my wife is a phone. I have my computer sound like the other ways I can check if if I need to. But this allows me from sort of. I used to go on on social and just sort of num out and a half hour go by and like, what am I doing? I just a half of my life numbing out on social with my kids.

Can I be present reading my son Harry potter, seven years old and and just starting to get into that know can I take one of my daughters out to to for for a tea uh and and be able to just listen to them talk about their science fair or or their genomics whatever is there into IT doesn't take much, you know, are not religious at all. But I think there's some there's enormous wisdom in the concept of the sabbath. Uh, I think this is an incredible of concept, right? Like what is that? So the saboteur jewish?

H no is is in duis. M is this idea of from friday night sundown to saturday night sundown? You don't work.

Now what does that mean today? Uh, I i've sort of evolved IT to my own personnel. Like I say i'm not religious um but I I think there are principles in there.

There are very that have helped me a lot. So I, I still will work on a saturday morning sometimes, but I won't. I won't.

I, I like to come out with a different mindset. For some reason. I, I found a way to take the edge off on the friday night, sorry night. I think of that is my relax time.

And if i'm working to be more reading or taking notes or reflection emit es on my laptop, I don't you know there's working in the business and working on the business. I'd like to take my weekends if I am gonna to work on the business and not in the business. I really, I really make sure I take time for my kids in my wife, uh, on the weekends.

I mean, I make a point to go in my wife, uh, for a date night, at least once a week, usually on the weekends we go for dinner together. We take a fair matter trips. And that's also really important.

I like to get away. But yeah, I think of started to bring a different mindset from my friday night to saturday night and then sunday. He started to ramp up again, right? Like you to gear up for the battle.

But money to friday. It's intense. Like I am an intense guy. I just am there's no way to to, for Better, for worse, is who I am.

And I go out at hard and I I wear my heart on my sleeve and I I work very, very hard. I'm present with my my family during the week, but for very short periods of time. And i'm certainly more present on the weekends, on holidays.

You know like I was seen, there's no sub to for the work. You you you have to Operate with a certain level of intensity and in order to get things done and I I work late into the night. I work up until about eight, nine o'clock. I usually either read a bit or watch me A T, V with with my wife and read to one of my kids, uh, before bed and and got a bed and trying get as much sleeps. So, and get up and do IT all over again.

Do you think that sort of biggest mist opportunity that that people have is like when they stay up lake, you go Better erly, you wake up early, but it's that like, you know, I don't know, know, nine thirty to eleven thirty? Yes, really get anything done, you watching TV. But if you get up if you go to bed at nine thirty and you get up at five, you're like ready to go. You're in thousand percent.

And I think that's the biggest, least productive, most dangerous time for our for our mental state h of the day. And usually I find it's it's it's also the time a day the most worried about my future and about the business and usually the most down on, you know, I am an pressie stay and really like, oh, not working things are going my well, I wish this, I wish that you know and i'm sorted down on myself and it's important you like, yeah more more I try to distance myself, me all the be rather than participant. Okay, you just tired, like you just tired.

You know with kids when you like, okay, you're tired ah it's not different with adults, right? Like you just tired. I go to bed call IT. It's over days over, you know, tomorrow is another day.

Go to bed. I feel that what's missing most of my right now as a .

tough question, I cheated before the interview and looked at your notes and and I saw that question and I wasn't sure how to answer IT. Uh, and I am still not, I think, a really difficult question answer. I think the answers is nothing. There are lots of things that I want, but there are few things that I truly need that I don't have right now.

I think what's missing is just more more life, more embracing the journey, more being able to take IT all in without feeling less than like a you know like a failure, more being able to just appreciate all the good that in life this is constantly uh um persevering on on on what's difficult or missing or bad. Life is short and and IT IT should be celebrated. IT should be IT should be elevated.

And I think there are lots of things I want to do and accomplish. I mean, I definitely sit down once a year and I write out goals and I write out one year goals and three year goals and ten year goals and um but then I kind of like to say to myself and and let's say I achieve none of them. You always have that sort of fear, what if IT doesn't work? What if I can? What if I not that good to this? And what if I can write in? And so what? I got three healthy kids, uh, A, I got a, uh, a great marriage.

I, i've made enough money. I, i've and so what and and I know that that sitting here is easy for me to say that a lot no, but it's all relative right after. Remember, that's all relatives.

There's always somebody who has more. There's always somebody who has less. And that's true no matter where you are, you know but the truth is like I was just as happy in that basement apartment in montreal as I am now. You know, so much has changed in my life, but at the same time, real changes, the real things that brought true happiness, where the personal developments were my ability to connect with my wife on a deeper level were my ability to a truly enjoy and and appreciate my kids. I think we're all kind of playing for that no regret old age rocking chair moment yeah, at least I I sort of use that as A A yard stick.

Be like wolf, is this going to a matter in my rocking chair? And of course, life has many twists, turns and and who is to say you've been a rocking chair? And I think it's just more the sentiment than the reality.

But I think I think the thinking about the question, what's missing in your life, you the answers is always perspective. You have to decide what narrative if you want to live right, like you don't get to choose a lot of things in life are completely out of your control. But but how do you think about things in the narrow of that you go through life with is in your control.

You know, everybody could say what your pains, not as big as my pain, or your hardships, big my hardships, but is all, if I mean, pain is pain, and hardship is hardship. And yes, summer worse than others. But by and large, we all have things that we need to overcome. And and I just think that, that really IT is doing the hard work to try. And how can you continue to sharpen your perspective in your narratives that you can celebrate life and get I .

like that because you're choosing where to focus, right?

You choose your focus, you really do and and that's something in this be practice. It's not something you can just tomorrow. I think it's hard to walk up wake up to me like I am like a positive mindset about everything you're not like you know, if you've gone for your life having a negative mindset about everything, you've not can able to do that in one day and probably not in one year and probably not in five years, Frankly. But but how do you take one step forward in that journey towards h having a Better perspective and and being able to enjoy life more and celebrate, uh, all the good that in your life and not just focus on all the things that are not what you want to be.

We always end with the same question. I guess what think that is the rocking chair question, which is, what is success for you? What do you want to be sitting there looking back on and you'd be like that, that success?

When I was a little boy, my father used to say to me, he say, David, you're like an eight cylinders engine Operating on two cylinders. And I didn't really know what he meant by that. I didn't know the world, I didn't, I didn't know is out there.

I did know all the possibilities. But but the more I go through life, the more I realized that that for me is is very important. I don't want to ever look back and feel like I can use all eight cylinders and and that applies to everybody.

You know, I I don't wanna feel that I didn't tap in in my full potential. I don't know if that is right now. I can't tell you we all have a certain level that we're onna reach, you know not everyone's Michael jorden, not everyone's gna be the the the warm buffer t or the C E O of the president of whatever right.

And and I don't think that matters. I actually think it's far more important is did I self actually ze all eight cylinders, uh, that I was able to to a self actually, zed, did I did. I happen in my full engine, hopefully one day on my rocking chair.

And the rocking chair question, i'm able to say I did that. I did. I didn't sure change myself. I did. I didn't not show up for myself.

Thank you so much. thanks.

great. Appreciate you. Thanks for me.

Recently, I ve started to record my reflections and thoughts about the interview. After the interview, I sit down highly. The key moment that stood out for me, and I also talk about other connections, episodes and sort of what's got me pondering that I maybe haven't quite figured out.

This is available to supporting members of the knowledge project. You can go to fs stop blog, slash membership, check out the shower notes for a link, and you can sign up today. And my reflections will just be available in your private podcast feed. You'll also skip all the ads at the front of the episode.

Thanks for listening and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes shown, notes, transcribe and mok go to F S dobleman slash podcast or just google the knowledge project. The forum straight blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, clear thinking, turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results.

It's a transformative guy that hands you the tools to master your fate, sharpen your decision making and set yourself up for unparalleled success. Learn more at fs, not blog slash clear. Until next time.