Fixing Higher Education & New Startup Opportunities with Marc and Ben
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Universities know historically only were ever built to train of a very small percentage of the eighteen year olds.

How can we have a population that reflects america? Was kind of the goal as supposed to. What's the best product opportunity for students in populations where we're not doing a good job of recruiting?

There is one educational intervention technique that reliably to generates Better outcomes. And in fact, IT generates Better called two sigma Better outcomes, an intervention that routinely takes kids who is forward to fifty percent all of outcome and losing to the ninety nine percent all outcome.

We probably need to fix the old lines and and built new and just giving fast the world as he got.

The cost is very much fast and inflation. And then you've just asked the question, are the results Better than they were twenty years ago? Hello everyone.

Welcome back to extensive podcast. This is your host staff, smith. Now in a recent episode, you've got to hear from our confounders market driven and then horwitz, as they talked about the crisis in higher education. Now they did so by breaking down the tall functions of modern university, going all the way back to when these institutions were found IT.

But today you'll get to here part two of that very conversation as they focus on the present, expLoring different solutions for overhauling the modern university, and admitted difficile task as they get into, especially given the many stakeholders with bearing in markin ban. Of course, take an entrepreneur lens to the bagels industry surfacing opportunities at every step, from equipment to student experience to the administer flow. And if you're interested in hearing for three of the series an extensive unity on the topic, you can go head and check out the bench k show or ever get your podcast.

It's time to fix. As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal, business, tax or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any asic sense y fund. Please note that asic N E in a zophernes tes may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in.

For more details, including a links to our investments, please see a extended a com slash disclosures. We did an episode about that we could go on university. So the prevAiling kind of issues and universities, the sort of crisis that they're going through, very important to I want to read that kind of why we did that one, which I encourage people to listen to.

Actually, first, if you have not heard that before, this one, this is part two, but also kind of why we're doing that. So we're started discussing kind of this ruling crisis that a lot of the universities, particularly the american universities, are going through right now. Very important.

Understand two things from our standpoint. One is the reason where dignity into this topic is really actually too fold. And we will talk about both parts today, which is VISA like incredibly important institutions for the country and for the people, the country and, you know, by extension, for the world.

So it's really critically important that what happens, american universities goes well and is a very big problem, not just for them, but for a lot of the rest of us. They don't go well. And look.

And I talk about this last time, you know, our personal stories obviously involved. We are here where we are because of the great experiences that we had universities and then, you know, the university, both teaching process generating graduates and research process. Of course, this kind of the seed bed of everything in the tech industry and a little valley and everything that we do everyday.

So these are important topics. The other thing worth s noting is, you know, we're not just doing this to kind of criticize. We're trying to see if we could be constructive in particularly, we're trying to take a look at the issue is not through a sort of a moment in time, hot in the news, you know, kind of perspective, but rather sort of a structural standpoint.

So we're analyzed the universities as if their systems and their structures and they have incentives and they have ways of doing things. And those ways of doing things that built up over for a long time. And just the nature of large org ization and systems to build up over a long time is sometimes they accumulate problems and sometimes that they need change and approve in the reform.

So that's why we think it's the thing to look at the other perspective that how is that there are clearly starting opportunities emerging. And we're gona talk quite a bit today both about what the existing institutions could do to maybe improve their situations, but gona talk about some of the start of opportunities that are kind of flowing from the crisis in higher education. And by the way, those start of opportunities would probably be appearing anyway because the higher education system, you know just can't reach most kids who need to get educated or around the world. And so there will probably be started opportunities even without issues. IT may be that if universities can fix some other issues, ultimately, that there will be opportunities to build new institutions, new companies, new new profits, you maybe new research entities and maybe do more of the things that universities have historically done.

We probably need to fix the old ones, them, and built a new ons. Just give fast. The world is evolving. Yeah, I mean.

looked like, you know, part of the context for all this is the universities, you know, hyste icy only were ever built to train a very slipper santa's of the eighteen years old, you know, in the world each year. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the number of people who turned eighteen per year worldwide, it's like extraordinary ly large number, you know, as many, many tens of millions. And so this sort of current higher education system, you know, was never built and is not built to accompany IT.

is built for a small number of religious scholar.

yes. Originally, yes. And then a small number later. Small number. secular. Any in the U. S.

University has become sort of a motor broadband expectation that got people go to college, as we talked about last time. But even if you could send every eighteen year old in the us. To college, the U.

S. Is still only four percent of the population. So ninety six percent of kids actually copy more than that every year.

Eighteen year old kids are outside the U. S. And most of them are in places that don't have your physical colleagues, universities.

And so there's a general scaling problem, right? Which problem needs to be addressed separately from the existing system anyway. So we're going to dive in a lot all of that. And then we have a lot of great twitter questions, which we are going to get to at the end or if we go super log part three, three, three. okay. So the way that I think about how to get started, sort of the question that we left off at the end of the last podcast, which is sort of the OK we have, the last discussion, we went through all the issues, we kind of left dang linger.

What do you do about them? So this is what do you do section what did to start by talking about this, you know, the way we try to always do this and businesses to try to start with like, okay, before you figure out what you're going to do, it's like, okay, what exactly are your goals? And then, of course, the very nice question, you know, from what exactly goals is sort of the question of what exactly are your goals for who, right? Who are you trying to satisfy? Who are the customers? You know, last time we listed out the twelve functions of the modern american university, which you can hear all about on that last episode.

And then what just right out of the list of sort of the tall functions in the modern, an university, the universities, the way they run today, they certainly have a large number of different constitutions. So I made a list, I came up, but I think like sixteen, eighteen and the list, i'll list them more quickly. Students, faculty, administrators, border trustees, alumni, donors, dowst rian, employers who hired the graduates, parents who are very involved, of course, immigration officials, sports fans, regulators, politicians, the press, which is, of course, discretized universities all the time, downstream policymakers who are influenced the science and policy preference coming out of the universities and number fifteen society as a whole.

So that was my yeah .

very much is the universities I have designed themselves from actually inception to have a big impact on broad society. That's one of the goals as they are trying to reform society of an society. And so having put themselves in that position, they're nurture going to get scrutinised by society. yes.

So how do you think about from a leadership standpoint, right in a management standpoint and with your experience on the columbia a but for general leering time point, how do you think about an institute? Now it's hard enough, just like running company, that just customers, our customers and employees or customers, employees, shareholders, right? You two, three forecasted is hard enough. How do you even think about approaching the job of leading an institution that has that many constitutions?

Well, I do think that companies do have a lot of constituents also, but there, I would say just a little, but have bitter clarity and uniformity on which are the most important constituent, if you like, at is like a dress and horrid. So we have investors, you know, we've got entrepreneurs. We've got employees of entrepreneurs.

We've got our own employees. We have the press. We have society as a whole. I got these things to consider, you know, in our kind of wealth management thing, we've got a kind of forth management, kind of kind in tell and all that kind of thing.

But I think it's very clear to us, and we try to make clear to everybody in the firm, and I think everybody in the firm is very clear on IT, that if we don't attract the best entrepreneurs in the world, that none the other things matter. So is kind of is okay, great. You have all these people who have an interest in IT, but you've got to get the main thing then and anything that compromises a prime directive has got ta go and be subordinated. And I think that you know in the universities, partly because of just sheer size of them, you know you have people who have no concern about the students at all, like large pockets of the kind of university that are only focus on kind of one of the other things. And that's where I think, you know IT starts to lose its focus and degrade the product for the most important constituent, which I argue with students.

Yeah, so if you were you know especially with your board experience, if you were placed in charge of one of these tomorrow, like how would you rank these? Or maybe that's for a question. Maybe that the question is how would you even go about figuring out how to make them? Yeah.

what I think you have to kind of start with students and then everything that this is a little bit in service of students to varying degrees. So the faculty right are obviously in service of the students. The administrators are in service of the students.

The alone ni are to kind of give money to support the students and they are kind of you know depending on you know what your issue is in attracting the best kind of bride students and giving them and experience and the kind of product in a career, the things that they're looking for that's optimal. You know you would kind of prioritize things to get you to there. And like there's always things that you know regulators are, you know something that any business has got to mitigate or you deal with and so forth.

And that's that can be a primary thing that you have a small team, hopefully that focus on that. But I think you know you can easily lose the thread if you know you managed to noise levels or yeah, the press is probably the most distracting one, right, because of the press calls us a name or says we're not doing our job and all the sun, like a huge focus, goes over there. And that you know if you're not careful, that will distract from you know what you want for your kind of main customer that I think the large of great, you know what's happened, which is why I cost.

Like, how is IT possible that tuition has gotten so high? Like what the hell are you optimizing for that let you think that your students wanted? Like that was a good idea. And I think there were some market corruptions, right, where the governments providing loans to students. So that kind of LED upward pressure.

And then there is, you know, other things like professors can get jobs in the private sector that you know which is a kind of a more scalable sector in terms of making money that could pay you know potentially a lot more than you could pay an academies that that try salaries happen. And so so there's a lot of factors later up. And like at the end of the day, like how the hell do you end up.

With a product that costs three hundred thousand dollars and gets the average soon a job that's worth, you know, like fifty, how are they ever going to pay back into two thousand, eight years and then we make fifty thousand miles a year like that? Esn saying, and that's kind of where they think the product where the student has fall apart. And so may, that's a good place to start.

And like, okay, so what would you do to get cost at the university under control? And I think you know one of the kind of big things that we've learned, which is, you know, it's stunning when you hear IT, but like I got there incremental, obviously, which is you know at many of the kind of elite institutions, the number of administrators outnumbers the number of students. And it's like, okay, that's an opportunity for savings.

And I think like if you just tight your belt, you go, okay, like maybe we can do a twenty percent reduction there. And so but if you think about a different way, I think to me, it's very analogous to you know we had a debate recently when the by by the administration hired eighty six thousand new irs agents and there was very partisan debate, as IT always is, like, you know, where are these people coming after my money? Like, what are you cheat on on your taxes? That did.

But that wasn't really the interesting thing. The interesting thing was anybody kind of in our business would go well. You could have just hired seven good software engineering, and they would have done a far Better job than eighty six thousand agents at figuring out who was cheating on their taxes because it's like IT a data forms problem.

Like this is what computers are amazing at an A I is. You know, people talk about what A I is good, tell what A I is really good at filling out forms like at forms, getting data out of forms, comparing that data, that what the data should be, figuring out things and nominees in the data that no human could. You know, it's amazing at that.

And could A, I do all these administrative task. Could you just get rid of, like that whole thing, or like, whatever, ninety five percent of IT and then you know you're starting to get costs back where they are? Well.

if if I could, just a couple of things on that. Someone is that in the question of greer constituency is because if your type constituency is administrators over, to the extent that the institutions being run for for itself, right, then obviously that's a .

direct threat yeah like I think that toys a thing in every organization, right? Like one of your concern are your employees, but when your employees take precedent over your customers, that's usually the end of the business, right? Like this is kind of the pattern in the private sector. Attentive al bankrupt little faster because arent government subsidies and tax credits. And there are so many goodies that the universities you know have access to in our part of their constituent that something that happens in business, but eventually, over time, in the long run, if the employees become more important than the customers.

you get to the same end. Yeah, one of the sort of works in the incentive of the whole things, if this makes sense, is that one of the parties is not a constituent, but what you just made as shareholders, right? So for profit companies of shareholders, the universities are not profits.

They don't. But the consequence is very interesting, instead of consequences being an on profit, which is not profit, right? The whole point is you're not for profit. You're trying to generate profit and so you're sort of implicity trying to break even ven. And so if you have the opportunity to have rapidly ramping revenues because of subsidies, you then actually have every reason the world drap expenses .

of the same right.

exactly like it's not your perfect generate margins wouldn't able to do anything with the money anyway. IT might even caused problems because IT would caused people to screen ize what's going on. And so there is this thing where with an on profit, the expense statement, you know, will scale to meet the available funding sort of all on autopilot, right? To make sure the thing goes to break even when. And this is the counter argument to people argue that our profits are somehow, you know, Better light up to do good things and for profits, which is like, okay, what if they are actually wired to just like expresses to the moon and basically .

on the taxpayer hour yeah think there is someone an aspect of that. And I think that the university math is a little bit if we can raise Prices, then we will on the kind of bench market against each other. So you know, student one, money pores and harvard raise their tuition.

We can raise our tuition like, and you know just kind of cast gates down the system. And you know that kind of translates into higher salaries, more administrators, more this, more that. And so for but yeah, it's certainly need be that way.

And I think the idea of longing tuition is a good idea. I mean, if you were, you know what, get into this, but if you were to start the university to be from first principles, like why would IT cost sixty seventy thousand dollars a year? Like that's outrageous or IT seems outrageous. Like to, you know educate a student like your best well, we know the way to do that.

Yeah and it's it's one of these things where you can just look at what to cost twenty years ago and you can look at the fact that cost is very much fast and inflation. And then you could just ask the question of the results Better than they were twenty years ago. Yeah, right.

And so it's sort of by definition, it's like, okay. And there's something you see in business also, which is just like kay, what if we just went back to the cost? So we twenty years ago or five years ago, yes, what is the project?

The people who are actually running IT, by the way? correct.

But if you're looking outside in like IT is a really key question. In other words, like you ve prove in historically that you could do IT at a low cost structure because you were doing IT at a lower cost structure. Yeah, right. The reason bring IT up is like you can find an institution you cannot find. The university today is trying to do what you're describing because you said the best work that gets each other, they're all on the same track. Yeah so you can kind of say, okay, that's some sort of inductive proof that is not possible to do IT or saying because like nobody y's even trying but the counter argument to that is no IT is possible to we know IT because .

they were all doing IT. Twenty years ago, questions grown up more than double the rate of inflation.

So something I tripple the rate of inflation on a sustained basis.

So clearly, clearly, well, the other thing that's really interesting is okay, if you're at sixty thousand dollars a year or like above, that's probably a little more than the cost of having a like full time, like very smart instructor for your child or from your teenager, whatever bright like. So you can literally sign every student like a really good instructor to teach them all the subjects full time like no other student, just one student and IT would seem like you'd get uh potentially Better outcome with that method. So like once you get to that level of absurdity, it's probably time to take a luck at IT.

Let's take about that for second because there's actually a lot of historical evidence been for what you just said. So if you go back in time or restraint education in prior societies, IT was always one to one to ring like australia. World families are always tutor to one to one. Then you have these amazing historical precedents.

And Alexander of the great is kind of apotheosis of this, because his tutor was very right, just pretty good, right? And and then, you know, even like the greek physical, hers like saccades, and all those guys know their day job was, know what they did the mornings, what they did want to want to do to kids in athens, and the they hung out with the acorn and talk about things. But their job was actually to dering anywhere that was obviously amazing civilization.

So there's lot like specific of president. And then there's this thing in the education research, which is really striking. So one of the things in education research generally is that IT basic fails, sort of all of the attempts to come up with systemic interventions to improve educational outcomes .

basically fail. And this has been the case for many decades.

Like Peter gog and things beyond to do, they think, do, whether it's head hiphop in the classroom, you just name any number of things where people try to inject money or new practices into the classroom and at any level. And basically, it's the hypotheses out over over which they just not change anything and actually is funny. Get function SHE.

Put out a report a couple years ago where I to go through this in detail, and it's very kind of discouraging in the sense of, look, it's easy to say like a good teacher will do Better, but it's much, much harder to say we're going to make a million teachers Better, right? So even the things that work in the they just not scale, there is one exception. There is one educational intervention technique that reliably generates Better outcomes.

And in fact, IT generates what to call two signal Better outcomes. So two interdependent. So it's an innoventions that routinely takes kids who was scored to fifty percent all of outcome and movement of the ninety ninety percent till of outcome. And it's one on one tutor. Yeah, I want.

you know, this is also true with artistical similar research. And the one thing networks is one one turing are. The one thing is proven of all the international interventions, consistently, there is a perfect U.

C. I ever love a who who can prove that out. So it's very consistent across all types of students. interesting. Like.

right? exactly. So is this thing called the bloom to signal effect? The researcher who did the work on this, this name is bloom.

So this called the broom to signa fact, is kind of this great White wheele of education, which is like, wow, we actually know how to make education like my brother is it's just the history ally been economically in practical. There is just a way that you could afford to have a one one. Tell me, I don't. You go to you know my body right now.

Well, by the way, it's also good like you know, one of the big critique of academy, I think from people like us is just like when you go into a academy, you're in this sort of bubble of a world. So if you're kind of coming up with new social sciences ers theories or what have you, you know, you're testing and among like you're kind of wrapped and people like yourselves.

But if you go back in civil sacred ties, these ideas at least have to stand up to the students in a much more direct way because it's a one on one like they're going to have questions with this where I think that if you're kind of elevator yourself to you, here I am king of the class and you know, i'm going to give you a grade so you Better not, you know saying thing nasi about my research like that's a very different kind of a thing, I think. So you know I could be helpful in both sides in the way, although IT doesn't quite take the expenses down, but I would hold them steady for every computer for me, three students or something, right? yeah.

But look, it's also the reference like I look is the expectation I think has to be to look if nothing, if current trans continue, then tuitional keep rising at three acts. The rate of inflation is something like that .

be having the tuto would cost you yeah we'll .

have a follow to the forecasts you five, ten years now and it'll across the million dollar mark right per student right? And at that point, the economic actually will come quite yeah in the direction of one to one instruction. So sitting here today, that sounds crazy that you would make this switch, but it's starting this sounds sane and so it's anything at least have like an index of potential competitive at least for the end of you check.

So anyway, with with that in mind, we immediately launched a kind of one of the more time in the sky ideas. But let's go back to like the chAllenge of like you're put in charge of one of these institutions tomorrow and you know you're responsible for the turn around or the reform that needs to happen, which, by the way, and look, you know, a lot of smart people at the trusty level and president level and dot or level. And so far, they are trying to reform the existing school.

So I think it's talking about that. So but let's talk about the fixed the university kind of plan. You wrote an outline crapping this. And so if you want, I can go through IT or you could just .

lunch and you get into a thing that will illustrate the kind of customer problem in the system thinking issue, which is and you know, I hate to get into IT because it's controversy about not going to get into the controversial aspect, which is kind of the whole diversity, equity inclusion and how these programs are designed.

And i'll just contrast IT with the way we designed our program, which you you know we call IT a talent program, but it's essentially the same sort of thing because we designed our with the kind of potential employees in mind. And I think that the system that was designed for the university was designed more with the press mind. So how can we have population that reflects amErica was kind of the goal as opposed to what's the best product opportunity for students in populations where where you're doing a good job of recruiting, right? Like very different ideas on how you would start the design.

And if you start the design with, okay, we need fourteen percent black students, whatever percent jey students as percent right students to the a and by the way, we've got legacy and this kind of thing then that forces you into a methodology that is kind of whatever race or gender base where you're like literally having themselves identify themselves on their applications and then trying to kind of fun of them through there. Who what's the problem with that? Well, there is a lot of like very well side effects.

Like first of all, if you like, at graduation rates or outcomes were so forth for a device students so much worse than for your main students. So like if you're designing for the student, you would never design IT that way. That would be like an important metro.

But that's not the important metric. The important metric is how many you let in. And so you know that's corrupting. Then the of the second corrupting thing is everybody knows about that checkbox.

And so once you know the student arrives, now i'm like a little bit of a second class citizen because people are going to judge. Well, you can say all that racist to say that, well, yeah, but you set IT up like people don't unc. Like I apply, I check, you know, my asian box are whatever that i'm checking.

I know there's other boxes and then like I read the news so I know like how that works and so like that kind of whole design based on trying to achieve a goal so that the new york times so i'm not racist as a trustee of faculty or whatever gets into that outcome. Now you contrast that like so how would you design if you're design for the customer? Why I can tell you, like we started the firm and this was it's important to know this is three me too pre George floy pre when anybody cared about any of this stuff.

So icon, valid. And so what we kind of said was like how do we get competitive advantage on town? And we thought, well, there are certain talent groups that don't get recruit and certain talent groups that are over recruit.

Until I can valley computer science students from stanford are heavily recruit M. I, T. Student so far.

So he started with, well, what about the second tear, the top students, the second, third, or universities and computer science, can we go after those? And, you know, we put them on our list. Second one was veterans.

Veterans don't make their way to have silicon valley often, you know, because they just don't know that they're welcome there, whatever, you know, whatever reason. So that could be an advantage. And you know they tend to be good at things that we need, like very loyal, trained and leadership and kind of process development, things that we really kind of lack and technology.

So we had all team to recruit veterans. And then the other kind of two that if you just like that, the numbers that we're way lower, like blacks and his fans and so IT teams for that. So I was in charge that part, by the way, you would like note that because it's a talent program, we inhale anybody to an diverse and you know like these colleagues to run the programs they have have like hundreds of people.

But if it's just talent, then the people who are in charge of talent, which is like course, you know people run the firm. okay. So early on, like were really two thousand and ten, two thousand and eleven. Now i'm kind of work on this problem and you are getting kind of input from people I know who have recruit from those populations who know them, who know the special skills that might exist, how to attract people and so forth. And this is a very funny story to me.

So I mp lunch in medal park at a restaurant called stacks, which you know well with Steve out, who you know kind of came from the tainted industry, is kind of, you know, in music in particular and rap music and particularly so like dominated by african americans. And you know, i'm trying to about and he says, been, do you know why there are no black people in silicon valley? Is just like that he says, said no.

Why are there no black people in sick valley? Said, work around. There are no black people in silicon valley. And like, literally, he was the only black person in all of this tax is a pretty digressed ant and only person. And so I was like, that's interesting.

And I looked up you, so you says this fourteen point three percent black, but palo alto and park you turn two percent. And so like, right away you go. Okay, this is him an attractive place to live? Or for whatever reason, people haven't even moved here. So like, maybe we need to start there.

And so what did we do? We did film screening ings and gatherings and made ups and barbecue es and kind of try to get to know the people that we wanted to recruit, know what would make for a good work environment for them by just spending like regular time. And then we start to go OK.

Here's a place in the firm where we need this talent. We already know all the people. We know who's the best we've spent like we've invested the time and we're going to get that.

And so then you come to the firm and our retention or promotion rights and so forth are very good because we were always focused on the talent. We never care about the new york times because at that time, the new york times didn't care about IT. And so like you just get to a very different outcome when you focus on a different customer. And i'm going to to tell you the last part of the story, just I can map IT back to the university.

So few years ago, I was five years ago, Henry Lewis gates, who was the very famous, very talented professor of african amErica and history and harvard, called me up because he, you wanted to basically raise money from me and has a thing that hip hop park I at harvard, and he said, then I want to create a fellowship called the horrible ds hip hop fellowship at her and I go will skip like, if you call anything that then everybody's going hate me because her with hip up like sounds like really you know, if up I said, but I A friend does who deserves to have a hip hop teller's named after him and all counters and see if he wants to do that and you know, we go to that and we call the now hip hop fell shit so then you know, they won't have a big event at harvard and invite now there you know, which I do and I get a call you know leading up to the event from lisa new who some you may know she's uh marital ry summer who was interestingly fired as president of harvard for saying something you know non diverse and he said then you know i've been reading nazis lro S I said you've been reading as lyrics he said, yeah I said you have been listening to his album she's like, no, no just reading the lyric of my okay. You know the albums are good to but whatever and he said, you know like he's so good like I can didn't believe how good this guy is like i'm talking like rough halo emerson, what women he's like that level good and I was like that that's amazing but the thing that I realized when he said that is harvard never recruit. Or anybody like this.

And if you think about a very black people dominate, dominate music in the united states. So why are you looking for the talent doing the right things to recruit them? Why are you looking for the color? And that I think I think a lot of the things that the universities, if you're going to take a system view of IT, you've got to a start back there and say, like how do we find the talent that we just our regular process doesn't get to change our process, change our way of doing things to get to that talent, and then it's can be Better for us, Better for the talent, Better for the mission of those kinds of things as supposed to letting some outside forest tell us what we should be doing. And I think that's really emblematic of a lot of the things that I think you've gone sideways in the university when IT comes to you diversifying the student body.

yeah. So let me still man a question, right? You get ta response to this, and i'll use my special skill here.

I use my social skills here, obsessive on all these tax. And so I tried to be able to think about IT for all the points of view as well. I super work here for a second, which is like, looked bad.

Like, you know, the whole point of the D I. Programs, like the universities is to try to like make sure that every field like engineering as an example, has like presentation by population. Yeah, IT feels like you're arguing that we should give up on that in favor of an approach that sounds like IT involves stereotyping, which is we should take away the focus of recruiting blending program.

We should increase the focus taking by people in music program, and we should do that on the basis of a stereotypes of black people are Better music than an engineering. Like, how do you? Yeah, how do you like? How do you like explain that? How do you explain that given the given the moral for work.

people are starting with feel like and I think I think that the truth of the matter is is look different. Everybody's in at first, like everybody is is an individual and should be treated as such a mad sense um but like I think anybody with half a brain well whose can observed some kind of very obvious things about different populations that they're interested in different things like people have different interests um like so forget about even talent or this or that and IT goes by group and by culture and so forth and this is you know um there are things like every comedian makes jokes about.

You know man like to sit around and watch sports and you women like to watch other things and so forth and that's very bad to say these days, obviously. But if you look at just job category, you know I think veteran ans are eighty percent women um and nurses is like much higher than that. Uh those are good paying jobs. Psychologist.

by the way, it's at the university level. We were just psychologists. It's lept to add up like ninety and ninety five percent women now, yes.

and I think there's something wrong with that. And you know, similar lake, like coal miners are almost all men. You know, people work. And like oil rigs are are mostly men, you know M M, A fighters are mostly men, although there are women who do IT. And there something wrong with that. And so like there are I think you do have to you know at any kind of program where you're trying to get you know in the whole point of diversity is diverse and diverse talent, right, all right, ought to be anyway.

And so if you're going into, you know a population that's got a different culture and very likely different interests and you know and by the way, everybodys got different genetics to, then you kind of have to be a little more creative about just saying we're only going to do like if you if you say we're only gonna look at you know these tesco's and these grades and these kinds of courses, then obviously, like those populations aren't showing up on that. That's why you have the program. So you can either go so we'll just still put them there where they haven't shown an interest or an attitude yet or like or or somebody student have whatever.

Or we can broaden our criteria to things that make big contributions to society and are important. And people may be like able to do Better than our friends though White asians like over here. Um and so like that's the choice you have, I mean you like and and I think it's just a Better choice.

So yes, you're not gonna get equal distribution just like you know like you don't get equal distribution in almost anything in life. Um IT doesn't make sense math wise by the way. Right like because of population fourteen percent, first of all like fourteen percent and total across age groups and eighteen year old.

So like you are already flicking off and then we're going international, so you're way off. And so you're mapping to a number that's a fake number. And now you're not just mapping IT to the university, you're trying to map IT into every subject.

And this is just like it's just it's almost the american epidemic and innumeracy is kind of affecting the whole logic of how these programs work. And the problem is it's to the detriment of the people you're trying to recruit. I give you a very uh, good antidote on this.

So uni just had uh breakfast with a kind of prominent trustee, yet one of the most important universities in the world and he made IT like a very off hand comment, which chief, that was the most obvious thing in the world that really kind of stopped me in my tracks which he said, like even if we accept every black applicant, we won't hit fourteen percent and so you're so unattractive as a top university in the world to that population that that you came in touch that number so your problem is obviously you know like not in you know making security. Your problem is you don't even know what you're looking for. You don't know what they're interested in, you how to create environment, you know that, that that's beneficial where they're going have great careers coming out of IT.

You have done a real man. You're just trying to like meet some number that doesn't even make any sense and that's to meet that. The issue i'll take IT a step further.

just double I this is a real issue right now and real issue for many people, including, as you said, the people that everybody trying to help. So your your friend henri, this gates, long time professor harvard actually was what pointed out twenty, twenty years ago. I think all the way back in like two thousand four, there is a big article is in the new york archives, really interesting from that era.

And the two sources for IT were him and like was one of the top like law professors in the question at the time. I think also harper maybe also a harper professor and later um he was like almost a supreme court at one point. Um so these two very highly respected black scholars, you express professors and they they made this case the time said what this institution s they are actually doing um is they're bringing in african and western indian immigrants um to satisfy .

the african american quotes yes, my there are more nigerians. I believe there's more nigerians at harvard .

than african americans, right? Yeah right and and of course like look i'm totally in favor of having like tell to african gary .

nothing to do with smiles like genetically this thing about this race theory that if people are kind of promoting is yes, they're not even like related to um actual races. I mean you're actually genetics or right and it's just some weird government category to over over.

over category ation. And and then you know specifically back to like what everybody thinks trying to do, which is if you're trying to help afra americans right in your answer to IT is we have to bring and lots of like literal africans in western indians or or other other population goes to do IT and you start like again, your point like something has gone wrong at pursuit of the goal of helping .

african americans yeah I think like I think is clearly not working also in the and there were there even with the kind of ruling on informative action. There were so many studies that show that um IT didn't actually help african americans fifty years you know forget whether you think it's a good idea or bad idea, fair or not fair, the results were really bad. And I think part of the reason the results were bad as way the kind of programs were designed and the you know and and that like most of the people were african anyway not african american.

right? So exactly well um so um well, the other fit to the african cities, they pay they are more likely they paid for freight, right?

Well that's IT right. The other incentive, if you if you're taking expenses through the roof, you need some people painful for right.

which turns out to be immigrants and uh okay good. So let's you know that's obviously big a big chunk of the of the reform x fixed university thing. Let's walk through the rest of the a fixed university .

turn around plan yeah so you know one big thing is the credential system right which um you know this again like this is probably the most important thing to the studio is that that once I pay all that money, once I spend all that time that at the end of IT, i've got something is very valuable.

And I think that there was just a report that like half of companies are dropping their like bachelor degree requirement, which kind of says, well, the credential no under means much. And so I think that, you know, if you don't like the S A T part, then you probably need to fix the S A T part. So IT you know like make IT Better but IT does prove something to employers um and it's very hard to you know get rid of a measure like that because you know what are you replacing and with you're replacing game with grades.

If you talk about last time, there's massive ve great inflation. Um so that doesn't really work. Um you know you doing recommendations like what are you doing that that an employer can to themselves.

And the brilliance of the S A T, by the way, is as an employer, it's actually illegal to do a general attitude test. So if you're looking for just whatever as you know, we sometimes call in sales and all around athlete um then are all around kind of mental ability. You know you'd like to have some aptitude measure and if you don't like the attitude that's being measured, then you know like enhance that.

But to get rid of that is a kind of neto from the student perspective. And then the second thing is great inflation itself. And in a way, it's easy to fix because you just go. Mandate a grading curve and just go back going to see his average if is fail a is a two standard d va up be as one stand IT like just haven't mean something very straight forward the grade.

What are you talking about kind of trying to zero of the absolutely solute grades, the indicator you talking about .

literally great on a curve and little, little of right .

grading on a curve used to be more common, I think, both in educational settings and also in employee valuation settings. You know, companies like microsoft used to do IT of famous ly M G E.

And then I went IT IT feels like it's gone very much out of style yeah um because the critic the criticism right is sort of forces you sort of guarantees that are going to have people who don't make IT um and so the the criticism is like, you know what, if everybody think classes actually really good and then you're singling out people who have to be cut from the bottom because you're forcing the the the great in the curve thing and so isn't that unfair? And so I I ve seen anybody great in a curve in many, many years. And so how how would you how would you kind of reexamine that to people in a way that they would think it's a good idea?

Yeah so like I think it's different companies um and in universities, by the way. So so I think that actually works probably in some ways Better in universities in the sense that like that the trouble run into companies is like your your relative to the next employer.

So if you hire the top thousand employees in the industry and then you rent them on a curve and then you fire the bottom ten percent, those are Better than the people on the market. Um and so like you get to that kind of thing. And so for us, so there is you know this need to mix in the absolute level.

The other thing is that you know the companies that we're famous for, IT intel lent microsoft um would actually fire the people at the bottom of the curve um and you know that has implications. And so for IT, one could are you know intelligent. Microsoft did pretty well.

You know they started with those programs before they were giant monopolies and they became giant monopoly. So um that that actually kind of work. So it's kind of a retrospective that that stuff is bad.

Um but in the university, you know I think if you create that way, you don't actually I I mean you know you feel like, okay, the fAiling point should be lower than the whatever two start deviations below the average, then you can do that. Um but the meaning of who's a top student at harvard to have clarity on that is pretty powerful. And then also to have clarity on, oh, this is what IT takes to get through four years and get a degree, a bachelor zed degree, to your point, last time about country.

interesting. Um IT really kind of fulfill that promise. And so you know, like we've gone into this self a seam is all that matters thing.

But the result that is massive student debt. We just lied. Everybody say you're doing fine. You're doing great. It's all good. Give us your money and then, oh, guess what? You know three hundred thousand thousand and you can get a job and you know that's the problem. So I tell me that's a much bigger problem than the self estee problem or the you know you know your three deef standard deviations below the averaging and you find the class. You at that point you probably don't know the material well enough um you know to get a pass and grade, let alone which you get now, which is in a minus.

Well, the other response, I think, would be like, look, every professor, every teacher and every manager and every employer are fully aware that you have a disruption, talents and capabilities and results and performance in every group, right? Like, so there is no player that does what you just said a few minutes ago, which is the hire the thousand? Yes, nobody does. I know everybody loves you.

Nobody ever does. You always there smart. It's effort. Effort is a big bank.

And that goes into you know not only a grade in school, but goes into like performance on the job and um you and and look, I would say the everything you know just in life that you'd learn when you employ people on every employer know this is you know not everybody is good at everything so like the important thing is like, what are you great at? And then like where how can you put you in a position for your highest investors? We use this to our molotov, you know.

Like where can you make the biggest contribution and let us sketching you there and not have you do something you're no good at. And I think this whole you know anti credential kind of way that we've got universities, we yeah people come out of the school, we don't know what there has industry step. They might you know they may be like the greatest.

I take uh Robert Smith is uh who's the um I see I guess in C E O via he's a founder VISA he's kind of rent. Um he is very, very sharp on this. He's he's a person I probably rely on most for ideas in this area.

And one of things he says is like we get guys, we kind of have to be classify them because what can somebody is an engineer? But when we kind of, you know, look at their personality and so for they're be way Better in sales and we rewrite them and their career goes much Better. And so if you are like a genius, you know psychologist, social networker, like you know these kinds of things and we forced you understand um that's not good for you as I good for anybody um but that's what these ideas do, right?

Like they force people into things that aren't their talent, their skill, their passion, their interest um and then you know they don't enjoy IT you know they they you know like i'd be resent ful of somebody did that to me um and then i'm not going to make much money and i'm gonna be like a low performer whether I am and there's no need for IT because i'm super talented person like why are you doing this in and I think um you know and and it's these ideas of people who want to make the world fair that they impose this thing on people where I like like life is not it's not fair and that not everybody is exactly the same amount of good at everything. But there's so much variety that there's a place for everybody. You know like I do believe that there's a place for everywhere anybody can contribute. We got to find that for them and that's what the university should be doing is finding people's contribution, not you know channeling them into something they don't want to do or like that test into or whatever because you know oh, we need another personal of your race doing this so we're going to make you do that yeah there's .

something in um if you need dig into the data are like a representation, different groups and different professions. There's something in the in the data the social scientists study is referred to as the scanned avian paradox um which is that it's very concern tuition uh consists of what you are saying but it's very concern tuition which is the societies that are most egalitarian um have the greater dispersion um have a greater difference between representation of groups. But for example by profession.

like way more women go into stem in like kosek stan than in sweden exactly.

And so the truly like for example for stamp, the truly the truly representative stamp systems of the educational level and the professional level for a like science and math and engineering were the soviet union um and then apparently even still .

today around much fewer rights, women have much fewer rights.

And then by the way, everything else that we might want to do much for dangerous, right? So literature professor installing as russia was like super dangerous, right? But being a nuclear physicist like, you know, super a super privilege .

ge position, yeah yeah right if I need you.

right? And so if you're like a highly capable person who happens to be a woman who would love to be a literature professor in but in that system, you can do that. You're not going to do that. And so you go do the thing that you'd rather not do because it's the same thing to do. So um and and then in contrast um if you if you do this rank ordering of societies by gender, egalitarian ism in the skin and even countries are kind of top of the heat and I think it's the case in the skin having countries today that like engineers are like eighty five percent man and nurses are like eighty five percent um so it's a much more unequal outcome and so the the explanation for IT turns out to be very simple. It's in the statistics um for what's happening, which is um if you take out all of the societal bias or all the societal level determinism, and you take out all you know whatever, if you take out every possible restriction on what people can do and you left them fully express themselves, then what you're left with is pure choice, right right? And so and so at that point, the differences uh, in the outcomes that are based on pure choice maximize .

yeah they .

don't minimize yeah they maximized right. So so the free or people are the more you're going to a have dispersion and exactly the way that makes kind of prevAiling reality, just like completely freak out. But but but to your point, the reason are going through all this. Your point is you can imagine a university.

You can imagine university that has this polar opposite view and would have these spectacular programs um and things different music and and many different areas of everything, performance tree and and then all these different you know psychology and all these different you know things so forth and so on. And then have some of equally good, you know engineering programs and math programs or whatever. And they have just like everybody in every program, is there because it's the thing that they really want to do in life and that they are the best out without the kind of trying to force IT everything to be equal representation across all .

fields is that sounds like that. So I and I think that um clearly the right approach and like in I mean, I have to say like in business, like rip technical venture capital firm and we end up needing all those things like you you know part of our advantage is that like we are a firm that has some poetry to them, that can tell a story, that can do these kinds of things. That's how we built the whole brand.

Um IT had nothing to do with math um and you know like that kind of one aspect, then we're a network. And so we've got to make friends like a lot of friends in and not just friends in silicon valley, we've got to make friends in washington, D. C.

We've got to make friends. And hollywood, we've got to make you know friends on wall street. And like this is an a great job for an engineer. And so like like or or like there may be engineers are good at IT, but i'll bit you I can find like somebody else who's wait Better at IT.

And we have and so like in that by pointing about the world, like the world is very diverse in terms of things that need doing and to kind of force people into a path because they're not your customer. Your customer is you know some you know body whose covering diversity at the washington post to the new york times or whatever and your like, okay, the last thing I want to be doing is getting tagged with racism for there. And by the way, those organza are not the verse in that way either.

You know like so there they're telling you how to run your business down and how to run their for a business. The whole thing is just stupid. Um but you know like IT, you get into these like abstract ideas um that you know the very surface level makes sense.

You know like like there's town everywhere. Yes um people are different. You are liked.

Not even people are different, like people are there. There's racism out there. yes. Um so therefore every job, every category and every companies got to be exactly you know the percentage that are represent by the population. Well, how do you get all the way there? Like that's a thing I ever .

heard you so uh, you wanted just something you for fun sometimes as if if you just google newsroom diversity crisis yeah um there are these just absolutely storm reports just like expLoring the news of the same new organza.

Just a great thing. Now you know, china, everybody wants to be a damn you know, journalist.

It's anyway so any equal amount .

their representation of the population. I like when you talking about so .

to go go back to the credential, to go back to the were talking with credential. So then think what you're saying see if this is right. You're saying as you you want to think you you want to think harder leading one of these institutions.

You want to think harder about the credential on the way yeah in terms of how you actually souring talent and how you are thinking about talents and how you are thinking about bringing in you know lots of different kinds of people ah then and response also want to think about the dentist out uh so the the value of the dentist that you're then and they're related, right? Because to your point on the S A T that the incoming credential is actually part of the outgoing credential. Yeah um so so you want to think hard ultimately about how that all translates down stream to the potential employer.

Yeah and by the way, look, if you want to diversify what you're getting through the credential system, then wide, you know wide and more, take more things. Have them do a poetry test, you like see what their liming skills are like actually, you know add the music to IT like these.

This isn't, these are real, tangible things, right? Like, you know, and you, you know, like, I think you would be very helpful for us if they would say, like, how good are you at, like, human relationships, right? There would be some.

I'll give you one I would love to I give no that coming in. Nobody's test out that like fine if you only want to test writing and math in history, but you're going to get people are good at writing and math and history. And interested in IT and whose culture puts them that way.

And so I guess if you kind of mix up the population, throw the cultures together, do a freaky friday and everybody and then haven't take the test maybe to work Better. But like you're kind of dealing with what you're dealing with. And so if you're going to go find talent, go find talent, but don't make talent being the color of your skin or your gender like that's done.

yes. So there is a psychologist. There's I write about one ah there's a psychologist that has a creativity uh uh test uh a creativity assessment battery test um and the test if I remember quickly worth roughly follows, which is it's sort of two dimensional so it's fifteen different kinds of creativity and it's like poetry and literature and you know our visual art and music and you by the way, could be computer coding, you know whatever you can whatever just list all the different different kids of creativity. Um and then I think he had seven layer seven degrees of sort of um sort of you know start aptitude potential um and it's like degree one is you like they just take poetry in example I have written a poem on my own in my notebook that nobody else has ever seen um and then all the way up to I have won a national poetry at work right right in the the same thing classical music you I don't know you to play playing a classical music instruments um you know I I know like to practice around the time of time for fun and I performed a carding a half right out of the scale of one to seven right um and he said if you um if you apply this test to any kind of broad based represent you know sort of group of the population the the average result the the the the the result is average is all overwhelmingly .

the result zero yeah yeah so is a real thing.

Most people have never done any of those things, right? Most people, most people have no interest in doing any of those things. Uh or or by the way, maybe most people haven't been encouraged to do those things because they're not value highly enough um right? Or because they don't think that IT translated having a future path in life. But for people who have done those things or might want to do those things, you you could have a completely different kind of criteria.

Yeah absolutely yeah. And I and I guarantee IT comes up very different across different populations. And I guarantee it's done the same populations that score high on the S A T.

right? Like and so you get into these, you know like, okay, you know to me, this is probably my greatest disappointment about the lack of evolution of the universities is, you know, we kind of rely on them to help us like the idea of like we're going to help you get too much more of the population and get too much more of the talent. And we're going to a really help you kind of map our students to your needs.

You know rather than doing that, they just like one to pass this political limited and and you know it's just a blown opportunity and a really unfortunate because like coming you know I and I can tell you, just like in my friend groups, um you like they are just the interests are just so different, right like people like people in my White friend group um or my asian friend group or my are always surprised that how much I know about popular music. Nobody in my black ground group is even surprised at all about that because, like that, interest in music is just higher in the population. So why can we take IT? You know, these these things are different, cultures are different. Things that are important in the conversation are different.

yeah. So let me give you my my other credential thing, which is like on the other side of this, which I think you'll find very entertaining. So so one of the things that came out there was a big, a big supreme report case on admission.

So in harvard just happened to be the the university that was the target of IT, although I I think Frankly they were just representative of the entire but IT just turned that we ve got just a tremendous of data um you know for the inside of at least one of these places in terms of how they do all this um and a lot of that now is public record um and you know one of the things that became very clear and because universities are these universes are costly, asked, you know, why don't you just why don't you just basically he admit on the basis purely of objective criteria, why even do the rest of this why don't you just like for example, why don't you just admit the emirate therefore S S A T score and actually one of the very interesting responses um there are now too many kids to score a hundred on the S A T what they'll say is if only good to the base of S A T IT still does IT still doesn't help IT doesn't get all the way there too many kids to score hundred on the S A T or sixteen hundred on the S A T um in particular and then this gets to the asian thing and this why this came out core case which is there there specifically there are too many agents to score one hundred on the math S A T into very well on the verbal SAT um and so it's no longer is so it's no longer an effective uh testing method to even get to the cream of the crop um for people in in stem. Now here's what's interesting. Um there is no reason why, for example, the meth S S A T has to cap out at eight hundred.

The test is design calibrated deliberately by professionals who do this for a living. Um they can make the test arbitrarily difficult. Um they can make the scale arbitrarily high.

You could have a math S A T test that just had harder and harder and harder and harder questions and then all the, yeah exactly right. Is this almost the up of degree inflation? This is like great .

capping captain hundred yeah cap one hundred is kind of like capping and .

saying my students can only get to be plus in the class just can't like there's just there's just because i'm not presenting complex enough material where they were be able to validate getting an a right. But you you could have a version of the S A T that basically has like much, much, much harder questions as the test you know goes on. Um and then basically you could have kids, you could just have a scale that goes from you know eight hundred to two thousand and and you could basically you could identify within the club of people who percent that like a much higher level um right and so and then you know then this gets to the question of like why is a captive?

It's capa hundred because there's just cost of pressure on the at equalize itself by demographic group um and so that the overwhelming priority at the company that does the S A T is, is to actually try to reduce group the stink of this right as opposed to unearth talent um and so they already get like just tremendous criticism for for group dispersion of of results. And if if they let IT if they let IT go further up, you know that would be just logical expect to space everything. We know that for example, you'd have incredibly high asian presentation right among the people who have higher the eight hundred method but in in the view, the world in which we're looking for a special one different right um you would say, wow that's fantastic um in the world where we need everybody to be the same, you would say that's horrible, right um but that opportunity is there. Then of course, there's nothing keeping a university from developing a test like that for itself, right? Like or or an employer, right?

Diversity is .

our string.

This is a thing that so like weird about the politics now is we want diversity, but we want everybody to be the same. And I would want to make a permanent. And if we have diversity, then we've gotta be able to measure diverse talents and degrees of diverse talent and um and distinguish all those kinds of things.

We don't want diversity then, you know like why I have education a lot like just keep us all like dum as we ever were. You know like so we can all be the same. That's the goal. The goal isn't to, you know, invent new things or or build new staffer, create new ideas or, right, new movies, the ideas that everybody's the same and being. And this is, this is where I think like theologic gets really wanky, and I think that, you know, like universities got caught their own underworld because they weren't willing to have that conversation, which is crazy because the whole idea of the area like a big idea and the university is um you know free speech marketplace of ideas, these kinds of things. But those ideas got shut down.

right? So let's keep going. Let's see we discovered a fairmont of the fixed thing. We could probably spend a lot more time on that.

Let's go to the other another option though um which is basically a starting new competition. Yeah um and so you could do you could start universities and IT is worth thing. Of course some people are trying to do this, right.

And so our friends our friends actually wise your fergus will land to schools and for profit for profit version Austin ord uh is doing and then there's an on profit version university of Austin which are friends um uh which our friends to our lazzara his colleagues are doing. Um and then there's there's another one called nerva. Um and you know what i'm people do try to start in universities.

And so let's let's stuck about that for a second. So let me let me just kind of frame the frame, frame the thing. So the obvious pro for doing this uh is um you know sort of managed to starting something new, which is sort of clean sheet paper. Um you can learn all the lessons from the people come before you. You can do that makes sense for today um you know and then look, probably this would be just given the issues in the world today, this is probably the best time in one hundred years to try to do that right?

Because you have you know a lot of people, you have actually quite a few donors at the moment as well as you know quite a few parents, students um you know going by the way, students who according to the current policies are actually very capable that can't get into top universities right now because you know sort of very radical changes and emission policy. So you have like you know this is probably like the biggest golden moment in probably hundred years to think about doing this. Um some people are trying to do IT.

Um there's a bunch of reasons to think that. This would also be very difficult. Um I just list get three reasons why this be very difficult um number one is existing institutions just have very powerful network effects, which is why they are so why the the the big ones are like hundreds of years old um too is that would take A A lot of money for a long time because of the network need to boot up a network of fact and that would just be very expensive, right?

In other words, like it's hard to get the great students until you have a great faculty, is hard to get a great faculty, you to have the great students. And so like for example, you have to like really overpay faculty, get them to come over and you've probably have to have a much cheaper student proposition. And so you would have like upside down economics for a while, while you're putting at, which means you need a lot of funding.

And then third is you'd be trying to break in your cartel. And so you know we talked about the accreditation process last time, but like it's you know maybe you could get a credit you can access to federal student on funding and federal research funding and maybe you couldn't maybe you just get boxed out, which again would just translate to you need a lot more money to get started. Um so but like think about yeah so kind of with your entrepreneurs had on and your venture capital had on, like is is starting new universities in the shape and form and kind of equivalent unable to the current universities. Is that an idea that we would encourage her, that we we would people away from?

I would ably warn people away from that idea that that is the same bundle. Um although you know like today is probably the right time to to come at that idea. I think from a capital standpoint, that is a very long shot. So it's kind of like no, it's a difference between like um tucker delorier and tesla, right.

So but by the way, to be clear, the references is to tucker automotive um not to um not to any other tucker.

But you know like I think it's really and we talk about this a lot is you like taking on you know an existing and combat. And what they do is tough taking them on on something that they really don't do like electric cars um tends to work Better. And I think that with the universities kind of there is such a huge opening and for you know different length of degree. So like the four year degree, he's really something that doesn't make much sense to me.

Um so to adopt that as like what your degree like is um given that people who aren't scholars need kind of skills and then new skills and new skills and new skills, I mean, could you imagine if we were trying to do our jobs based on just what we learned in college, right like IT try tell me the programme and pass scale you know and see like neither of which anything a few times you you see but not often you know like that all like these things don't last that long anymore um these kind of things that you're taught knowledges is evolving very fast, which is great. Um so like the four year degree, you know like that's one thing you might bring into question. And then if you had a shorter degree where you could get just as high doing a job and is something like that does, of course, then all of the sun, you have a value proposition that starting til I really good, oh, maybe like ten grand, you know, you lend me ten grand for a year.

This is the atlanta school does. And then you pay me back, if only if you get a job. Well, okay, that that starts to sound pretty good. So like I think there's things that would be much more attractive to students potentially that weren't like a full frontal assault on harvard. Um so just from A V C stamp, I think that now like I think there is something very noble about building a new full out for a year ivy league the future type thing because um if you believe these schools have lost their right then you know it's time to build a new thing. Um but but i'm not sure that university was invented so long ago like that we invent one for today.

Let's take you out of let's take him out of the room of pure venture. Let's taking the real of venture capital where know we think about generating return. So flush is taking up in the realm of, you know maybe I say sort of filthy y as an example or just somebody who really wants to make this happen.

So you know, kay, we just happened. There's a donor strike at some institutions right now. There is a very deposited donors.

You very deposited donors that there are on strike with ish ones. That's whatever. red. So so let's suppose this just hypothetic. I I don't know what, by the way, I don't know whether this is happening and maybe I don't I don't know, but let's just suppose a group of them we get together and they are just like, look, we're going to play two billion dollars or five billion dollars or ten billion dollars um and we're going to build from scratch um and we're going we're going to do the direct frontal thing.

We're just going to like we're going to build the parallel thing and then and then the logic we're going to have for doing that is, number one, we have the money. We have the soon we have the money resources at the level of some member of billions of dollars to do that. Um uh you let's say up to the to the five or ten billion doll level just to swag IT.

And then let's say that you look, we actually want to go for for all kind of assault because we don't want people to have to rethink their assumptions like we want to just be able to like bring the faculty to over. We bring the students over. We have the parents to be totally comfortable, right? We want the government to understand how to deal with us like we just we want to fit in to the existing industry structure, and we don't take the risk of innovating.

We just want to be like the others and just we're just going to be a new we're just going to be a new and Better version of the things that are exist. Like how would we how would how would we advise them um you know give give give given those goals and given that level of funding, like would we at that point say, you know, while that sounds like that might be a good idea, here's how you might do IT. Or would we still say.

yeah no. Like I mean, I like, as you know, our whole mess in life as we are dream builders, not dream killers, so we would have for sure and cards amen actually got me think about like what would I advise johan's dee to do?

Like like one thing I superi column um is he should wire university of boston straight to us um and straight to you know everybody in venture capital is building new companies and in kind of hiring lots of employees and all these kinds of things and you know ask us what we're looking for and then um you know let's do a partnership and and recruit straight out of there and so forth. And then that will really enhances the proposition to new students. So if i'm in new student, i'm going like, okay, I get a harvard degree or I could get a university of aston degree.

Why am I going to university of awesome who what if like during the recruiting process like they come see us and we know like we rather have you out of university boss and at the harvard that won't open my eyes i'd go like, okay, that's something you know I I may take seriously so probably like really lock in on how can I attract the best students and what is that taken? I think it's you know it's partly a function faculty, but it's partly a function of life who's paying, who's understands enough about that university that they go on all in. And by the way, I can be as big helps to you when you come out.

Is anybody so kind of artificially create what's like the alarm nine network, but Better than an alumina network is you're doing IT with people who hundred percent have jobs like the top of the job market? I think that that that's probably where would start. And then I kind of design the system to feed us, and then to kind of feed dissidents in that way into all the most kind of interesting jobs that line up with the curriculum.

M, now you like, and if you're doing, like if university advice and was like had a whatever a big focus on creativity, that I would you want to like wear them into some kind of creative output or whatever. Like, so what happens after the university of Austin? Like I would start with that.

Like what's gona happen when you graduate is IT is basically when you go to school, you're like, what are you looking for? You're looking for a life. My life isn't gonna a be like for me.

IT was like, my life is not going to be working out of fuck and restaurant because I had been a bus boy and I was like, I do not want to do that my whole life. I can't do IT. I'll shoot myself in the head like I can't.

I can't taken. And and I think that's a lot with people are looking for when they go to college is like how can I have a life that kind of has more variety as interesting where i'm learning, lifelong learning all that kind of thing. And so if you can guarantee me that life or if you can give me a Better product to give me that life, that's what I want .

right right um so you sent me on the same topic um building building from scratch. Um you sent me a thing as we were prepped for this all this quote back to you um the the today's universities are built industrial revolution technology that are they are therefore completely outdated for the information age both and how they run and the product they offer and so how would again, how would do we advise this hypothetical new institution um on how to on what to do on on that ah what does that mean in produce yeah .

so like I think industrial revolution technology means you can build big buildings, you can drive there in your car um or on a train. You don't have to write a horse .

h and come lighting at night and lighting .

at night. Yeah yeah yes but.

我 it's not true。

Yeah this this is sort of the platform. So what do you get? You get classrooms with instructors. You get um you know dorm that you can live in uh you know a big cafeteria you know with a meal plan, all that kind of think um but like in the information age um and giant library, of course multiple libraries. And me if you're navy lake school, you know in the information age you have like A I you can ask any question you've got um you you know you have accessed internet. You've got uh all these other things um and then you know your school experience, you know right now industrial age world as you have instructed tors and you've got like administrators filling out forms and you've got you know very little united university villino ise but just like a columba and a ucl, a very little kind of career guidance um you know kinds of things help you help you find your highest and best use the university.

You don't really do that um so I think that in the information age AI university, all that form filling out all that um a lot of the kind of instruction is taken care of what what you really need is the university to help you find your purpose and then guide you threw your purpose with the team of other students who have a similar purpose uh and you know to help you study the right things, prove yourself in the right ways, get the credential and so forth and using all the best tools to do that as supposed to you know waking you up at eight morning walk to class in your pyjama as because you were drinking too much last night, you know, sit the class very bored. Not really kind of be integrated into the A I in the internet. Get the rest of information.

So I just think there is also like a whole ring thinking of the way your day would go. And you you know what? Forty five minute or hour and a half lectures are pretty hard like it's pretty hard to pay attention in the whole time and retain everything.

Um where's like smaller chunks of work and I think have been proven out you know and like and then a kind of test to go. Like OK, did you retain the information tion that you got or like some interactive part every ten minutes is a much Better, you know like IT just just in terms of these things. And then you know like as you said, like one to one to do that kind of thing, but maybe the machine is they want to want to her in some ways, uh, because you can ask a questions. Now in english you are in you know chinese or whatever language you speak.

So I think that I would definitely make IT that uh and you know give the professors the negative tors the kind of tools to both identify the capabilities of the students and then um you know help them max mize those abilities and then kind of then map IT further into you know people like us or you know could be as IT could be the NBA IT could be um you know I could be worn or music IT could be whatever part of society um works but like you know like I said, we take people with all kinds of talent um you know all kinds of different things is is very valuable, like extremely valuable for us said at the firm. In fact, know I did argue, you know where five hundred and fifty people probably makes us the biggest bunch, a capital firm in the world. why? Because we do the most things.

why? Because we have the kind of people who can do lots of different things. Um and you know that's that's a heck of an advantage when you know as an employer, you have people who can do all kinds of different things because then you have more capability as .

as an institution um and so yeah so when the topic of technology education comes up, a lot of people you know reflexively assume like the like the internet, that's not what you are saying, like continue to be a real world experience.

comfortable to work experience. I actually think it's good for most students, maybe not for you but for most students that there are different personality types to um but like I think there is something very motivating to be around peers, right like here you are here's my code of people who are going to be in the world with me and what are they doing and what can I learn from them?

You learn as much kind of from your classroom mates as you do kind of I think from the university. And that's hard to do. So I got much hard to do online um so I think that the ecology experience which is you to to joe an university of and credit is a real thing with real value in a particularly for a Young person for most Young people. Um but but I think you have to modernized IT. You know like we're not in one thousand nine ten anymore.

So then in mind that let's go more radical from that. So let's let's talk about muddling so my old french two ways to succeed in life uh in business uh one as you can bundle, the other as you can unbundle yeah um and so let's let's like with the unbundling so um I go to them in in order so we had our a dozen functions of the major university.

Um I I stripped out three which you can talk about the end but that least nine which seems to meet at least there is a case you could be great from bundled ling. So let's walk for me and let's think about these is like, you know actual potential are actual potential the start of ideas like actually for profit start of ideas or by the way, maybe not profit or fanthorpe c ideas uh so uh credential agency like um yeah so talk a lot about credential so far but like all different aspects are credential. And again, this concept of credential and dentin out like both the credential, the way that you are deciding who to dentist and then they actually credential that you're giving them like is that every year is like, is that something could have started out and turn into something?

Oh, I think this may be the best start up idea of everything in education in that, uh, look, if somebody had a an organization that aptitude personality tested people um and you know not just you know a general test but like in very specific things as well like and if you think about um so I value everybody gives every engineer some kind of test you know in their interview right like right this piece of code you know figure out this algorithm, this kind of thing.

I think every job has you know some of that. So if you had a place that could reliably um differentiate kind of people's capability and things you needed to hire for, that would be you know something that I think would be very attractive to employees. I mean, you know, like one of the right, the S A T was invented because IT used to be only like nobels.

You know, the alert, the arrest, croats, people from rich families got to go to college. And then you're saying, well, like, what if i'm like, you know, some poor kit from new lisbon with snow sin, how do I show I can go to university of you and nice. Well, I take this test. That's a fuck of miracle. And I think that was a special point.

like that was a specific reform at a specific moment of time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. exactly. And then if you think about that, you know among employers, people are right about bias and this and that. Well, like kinder like you know to have the ability to show your capability in any dimension um and then have an employer know about that and haven't been like valid you know weed beats incredibly interested in that.

And I think that you know people who didn't have cost degrees, who might have gone to a state school or something like that, that you know was a little cheaper that they could afford um all the sun for and then that that would actually help fix the university system in away. And that now I can go to center to go stay um and I can go get credential here. And i'm actually more interesting to Andrew and herods than the person from harvard who's got this degrading creditor like how about that? And I spent a helpful at less money to go servants to go state that would be incredible.

So I think that to me this is such a great start of idea i've been thinking about since we started the pod as like how do we find that one like that's awesome. You know you you'd have to do a great job on IT. You would have to be unfeasible um you know you really like nobody's bringing ChatGPT into the thing with them like whatever IT is or maybe they are like I I know you know really you just have to know where to ask um but something that was like you knew if they could do that, then they would have that capability. And then as an interview, you're just really going understanding motivation, cultural fit, these kinds of things are supposed to can they do the job because, you know, they can do the job. Yeah.

there's also something and i'm i'm not a lawyer, but there's also something in the lot. So as you earlier, like it's it's illegal. There is a famous supreme court case uh made illegal companies used to do generalized aptitude .

testing a and rule them out of a specific job on a general test like yeah.

that's right and and that basically killed like you testing at at the employment level and and that was when the asked that was when the university degree took off because that was the the S A T car was an implicit I Q test and launder through. So employers employers outside the I Q test in the university dentil, but but the as we discuss the universe, seventeen hundred universities colleagues in the us of stop using instead as teaching as an emission uh criteria so that the value that is going to zero as as an I Q test um and and in fact um you know they're ing everything they can get away from that so so so so but but the employers look can do what was interesting, but this is the start of idea, is that the thing that the supreme court is said specifically as illegal as an employer can do this um but here you could have any kind of aptitude to testing I Q or otherwise. You could have a dozen or a hundred different ways measuring measuring attitude and whatever domain you want, including creativity. Everything else we talked about would all be is all completely voluntary, completely we go um you know it's because it's not tied to unemployment, right? Um so I right so you could do like a supervision of even what the employers university stood in the past and actually haven't be a fully.

fully legal thing. I am, by the way, you know we IT would really help get people into the right jobs as well because you know, sometimes super get this case like this is you know life is like a sometimes you know you get a sign one thing and you really should be something else and um these kinds of this kind of rigorous, successful um might identify that and then you know like you can kind of find something that you're Better at and and that you're do Better at in your career um and like you know we could use more, which would be great. Press is like .

this .

is a definitely high and IT would be great for us.

Creature, yeah, yeah, okay. good. Um good. Uh, our second is actual, actual educational course work itself. And of course, you know, again, here there are been attempts. There was a the move online, A H united. And um you know you do you, demi, which is another start up um and then kind academy.

which is kind of a different format of IT.

Yeah exactly. And then um i'll just give you a couple a couple thoughts on this one. Um so number one, actually this is already have as specifically this is happening in korea um and so they are actually they are actually like teaching superstars in korea that um actually you makes make courses. Um i've had this idea for a long time which is um you know if you figure if you've got a million kids, you're going to take math one to one fresh in your college, you know you get them you you get them each, you know how dollars for that, so one hundred million times revenue you know and the higher Stevens filbert to make math one a one as a as A A as .

a video many series course all times yeah like a literally .

I must be a Christopher and literally yeah the most, the most like my blowing incredible. Like course yeah course uh uh I like you. You've ever seen with like full you know three effects and graphics, everything perfect. Um and so you can do that.

And then and then you know we talked about the tutoring thing, but you could potentially have a thing where you have like the the super high production value general courses and then you couple that with like A I tutor or you couple that by the way with like in person to Terry and and ah you know matching great students underground or whatever um like and again, like people have been trying to do variations in this requite a while. You know how would we think about that as an entrepreneur? PPT ity today.

do you yeah you know, it's interesting because of the ones we named. The one that has worked the best is probably econic conomo, which have the least amount of money going to IT and is in its own format, right? Like it's a it's not a university course format thing. It's like these little lessons.

You know I didn't even remember you know when A I started taking off, I had a hard time numbering like how to do lennar algebra, how heart IT was and I did the kind of academy like how I I forgot how easy IT was much easier than actual algebra IT sounds done harder but IT easier um and so like IT is kind of like a magical thing um and I think that chAllenge with the for college experience and once you get to the Christopher, no one version is that it's a very big thing to sign up and commit to without a well known credential right like OK. I'm going to go learn right you know whatever calculus or i'm going to learn um you know advances you know like machine learning or or something like that. If i'm if i'm really coming from outside the job market, even if I learn IT, will anybody believe me and how does that work?

So I think completely playing that one from credential or jobs, maybe tough, Better like if you could link IT into like you take this class, you get a job, then I think I could definitely work, but others SE. I just think it's a very small market of people who just really want to learn that much about a subject. So yeah, when you talk to stand, we like a little bit about subjects .

yeah so when you when you talk to professors, you put a signal hat here from when you talk professors, university administration or about this can think busy. What they tell you is like look like you. You can't be dive about actual, actual, real world students.

They say they look like imprint is going to your point of like the advantage of having a physical physical presence, like a special physical campus. What i'll tell you is like, look, a lot of students actually like don't want to learn like or they're not motivated to or like is not something they would actually do. They're not driven to do IT and like, they grow through the motions. And to the extent they are actually like showing up the class and doing work because they're in a specifically structure environment where the expectations are set high to do that and there's going to kick out if they don't, you know, their parents are paying forward and like it's like they're be pressured, basic pressured to to doing IT, right?

Of course you a lot when I went to college and I went to columbia a so and columbia like a pretty high end. So I imagine that like regular school, that's even more the case. So I think I think .

that because my response that would be I think there might just be two different kinds of student. There might be the ones that like are actually super strong. Is super prince ally motivated as a psychologist say, where they're just like, you know by the way, talking about yourself as example as which is like I was a bus boy.

I don't want to buy A A sh washer. I don't want to be a washer um and like we're going to go do this because like we we know we need to do this because we're doing IT for intrinsic redoing IT for ourselves, like we're doing IT for intrinsic reasons. And so those students exist. But then there is this other kinds students that arguably more populates, especially the upper ranks, ironically, of american education, which is like where they actually need to be like I and even made pressure this maybe overstating IT, but you know maybe it's just I need to be in a highly structure environment yeah um I great that most students I yeah yeah and so well is this word thing which is the almost like the more privilege, the more privilege the student, the more pressure we put on them or something like .

that like it's you know it's like if your life is really fun. You if you've got lots of money and you know like when your Young life is incredibly fun, everything is new in every movie is amazing. Every ad like every experiences incredible um so like i'm going to take those years and i'm going to look king, sit in a classroom listening is somebody drown on about you know whatever the elliot like I don't want to do that. Um so I think that's right. Where on the other hand, if your life is kind of you know it's misery without getting something out of this experience that that's a little more motivating yeah I was .

wonder with these these things, I was wonder if people should be more specifically, you know sort of addressing that category and I don't know if you know so that's not even that big of a category or something but like basically self motive infested, ally motivated yeah and I just like not try to not try to appeal uh to the people who need like more structure and more pressure.

Yeah yeah yeah. And I think that's a very specific market like you would have to kind of identity us and get them through a interesting.

But again, to your point, if you if you then link that to the credential, then they would see the cause in the fact. And then that would be, if very good, like we really mentioned lambs school. This is basically we're basically describing in lab by school and a lot of ways.

So um this makes sense. So okay, third is the research before. So so this one frees people out because like any time you bring up, is there a different way to like to do research, fund research?

Basically everybody in the sort of research complex, you generally they freak out because they basically the the the the steel man case against any change to how researchers found that is basically you don't understand, uh the whole point of like research the home point of basic research is that IT doesn't have an Angel like in mind and identified um because how do you know you're doing some research experimental physics or some new math theory or whatever and like higher by biology, difficile the genome and how do you ever know like a maybe there is a commercial use case for this thing thirty years from now, but like you have no idea. And that's what makes research a difference in development, right? The reason that term research and development is because development has a specific al electable per product, can make money.

Research is like trying to cope with new new knowledge just just like, okay. And and then, you know, the argument got, you know, the modern research university was constructed that the research part of IT was constructed originally by van of our bush. His peers seventy eight years ago provide a kind of environment in which kind of basic research can happen and there you get into um you know ideas like ten year like why do professors have ten years of a big reason for that is so that they're free to do whatever research they want.

Um you know they don't they don't not risking getting fired if they quit, don't deliver something you don't think critically useful. Um and then you know the other is like, you know government funding of research. It's like you know the government you know companies won't find basic research because IT doesn't have an commercial target.

Um but you know the government well because they pressured ly has a long term perspective. Um so so so you get like and my experience you get like tremens push back out of the gate of this conversation. And having said that, I think there are a lot of very interesting things that you could may be explore as as as as ways to do research outside of the university context.

M and by the way, and some people are doing this so we can talk about them. But um so so what is there's a couple of issues with the current research complex we talked about last time. So one is just there is a massive replication crisis and so IT depending by field, up to seventy five percent of the research and a lot of doesn't replicate.

So massive incentive of complex like a massive incentive problem yes, how do you get a branch?

You publish your research result that seems to validate additional investigation. And how do you get that result? Well, you get a legitimately or you do data mining.

And how do you get ten year?

How do get ten year? You I was sh papers. You made me out of written, 你 信我 说 我 来。

So so there is that.

And then there's a friend of mine and I want named, but he is a very experience, ed guy who's spent in the certain leadership positions across this entire h spector. And he always, he always, whatever. And I talked about this, I always going replication crisis because I think it's such a scandal and he's like, look, it's not even the problem, he said.

The problem is ninety percent of the researchers is just useless, is just like it's just not helpful and basin and guy matter right he says he he just look where is right or not is actually secondary. Whether IT IT would even matter if IT was right. Um and this Better way is a guy who has run a major is he run a major, at one point, major government research funder. And so this is a guy who was in a position to be able to hand out the money, know. So this is not like some sort of antia establish my good this somebody who has been on the inside seeing how the sad just made a running at himselve and early said, he said, look, he said, like the practical reality, this is his his argument.

Practical reality is in any given field of research, and is anything quantum physics of, you know, any scope, ology, anything else, computer science, whatever he said, look that there are five institutions that are on the leading at um and everybody in each of those fields know so these five institutions are and those five institutions generate you essentially all of the useful output that SHE move the field forward um but so it's just it's five institutions, you know whatever number of you know therefore no depends on the field. The hundred professors or something like that um two hundred maybe by field um and then it's you know underground students and then it's the research budget for those people. And he said, luck.

And I was like, why? Why does the government just fun that? Like, why fun the other? And he says, like, ten percent of the money. And I was like, then why spend the other ninety percent is like, well, you know, because, like, it's not enough.

Like, is this weird thing is like it's not enough for the government because there is like too many, there are too many mouse to feed. There are too many conditions, too many congress and have universities, and there are too many people who get tenure who expect this. There are too many income ecologists that have research programs.

Even if they are not productive, they don't cancel them. Um and so he said the system is kind of wired to over fund every category by like a factor of ten. And so he said, look, he said the thing, the thing to do, in his view, is like the first thing you would do is he said he would just narrow IT down to the ten percent.

And so you would just figure out like what is the actual ten percent of useful work to be done? What is the actual ten percent of the people who can do that work? And so he says, look, the aggregate dollar amount involved is, is that literally a tenth of what everybody thinks that is to do the actual reality work? And then he said, and then he makes a further make a further argument that he said looked like, yeah you don't always know that there is going to be commercial applications for research, but a lot of times there is um and so if you have some material science breaks, there is something like that patent is probably going to be super viable.

Um and by the way, universities are in the business of you know patterns and patent licensing and they get reminders from that. Yes, even though what's not their their main thing. And so it's like, look, you you could either have these you either have knew nonprofit research institutes that would have to be funded with philanthropy c dollars, but maybe it's not you know maybe that's actually tractable because it's just not that much money yeah for the high quality work or he said, look, maybe this should be a venture capital model.

IT should be for profit and you just basically make money. It's a long data in a revenue thing where you're making money in the long run on on commercial product development and our pat licensing coming out the other side. And you should actually just like apply you should actually apply A A, A V C, my set to that.

So anyway, so really in all I all just mentioned like so our from Patrick colson has finding panthry pick a program to do independent medical research. IT was stanford called art that set up as a separate thing. Um we we know well the the the folks that h hara he is medical institute um that you know specific a grant funding to um to individual Young researchers, the biomedical field and I said outstanding results with that so no there there are there are new cuts on this.

The people have Parker among the board of his inside, which is similar.

Describe describe what what he does.

Yeah so someone shone sensitive. Um H A P P I C I is is initials Parker institute cancer something can't remember but i'm on the board of IT. Um but you know they said they find researchers to do kind of breakthrough work on cancer.

And you know they do have they've got both a they spin on the ideas out into there is a venture model. So they spend the mount into companies and the institute invest in them. Um they do generate pattern.

So like IT is um you know it's originally he I mean he's made an incredibly generous uh two hundred and fifty million dollars, I think, donation to start maybe bigger than that, probably bigger than but anyway something enormous amount of money but his vision has always been that like IT will become self sustaining over time because these you know the tech, the things that is doing are are so incredibly important and I think that um um I can fly right like I do think it's gonna know up working and they you know they've spent out some very, very interesting companies already some of which even investing in by the way um and then there is a chance oco berg institute um this is another one right um friend mark october's an and his wife for seven china you know trying to cure disease like all disease um you know which is incredibly great ambition and not something you would necessary do in the company, but something that will probably have a lot of commercial results coming out as well. So yeah like I think we're definite at a point where philanthropic do that, everything is right. Like there was research before the current complex um and you know got us some pretty interesting results like say the theory of relativity um you know kind of came out of that.

Um I think where was alan turning when he did his proof that a good question and of course kajana a was a master student and you know I mean a masters theses which is considered like of nothing in academia which is probably more important than almost any H D thesis in the last hundred years uh where he um met um bullying and logic is the first time anybody did anything with bullying and logic which is the algebraic OS and ones onto a circuit uh and that is the beginning of computers for those you don't follow that kind of thing. And so there's real research I can obviously happen outside of the way the current university system works that's been very powerful. Um so yeah I think like I think that I would be great if there were you know couple hundred of these um in different category and will be certainly something that you know I would love to put more money into um so I yeah I think that's a quite a good idea rather they make money or not like I think there they're very kind of film tropical ally funded able yeah that's right.

Yeah that's right. Um yeah so I I I think I think agree with you, I think but yeah I think so I think there may just be I mean, look, there may be certainly like you know particle physics, look whatever where certain government money, but like I think a lot of the current complex actually might be funded able the quality the quality work at IT might be funded able separately.

Um let's see policy think tank, you know that you there are policy think tanks that are not associated with universities and so know it's certainly viable thing to do separately people doing that today. Um moral structure is my favorite of thinking about breaking out separately, which is um you know look there are many social movements that are not associated with university. There are many social organza um activist groups um you know um churches and right like you know new religions um you know like old religions right exactly um which are maybe coming back a little bit right now um and so um yeah like I don't know that seems like society has a lot of of our ways to organize moral instruction. That's not necessarily uh having a take place in a in a research generator text.

Yeah and I think that the I think the university one is very, very tRicky because is counter to a lot of its other goals potentially um particularly you know marketplace of ideas, freedom of speech, freedom of thought uh and you know I I just think it's not the right people to be doing IT you know like you know pastors and prize and so for so come under fire。 But in a lot ways they are much more of the right people to be giving more instruction because they actually spend time with their congregation.

They deal with the you know the actual trials, tribulations of kind of going off the moral path and how to get people back on IT. And they they're like hans on it's a tangible thing um you know an university a professor can spout off whatever that if he wants, he wants and then has no tie to that down the road. They don't live in their community then have parents who go to the church and donate.

And so far side, I I think in some universities are worst place to do more struction now that it's no wonder like a religious institution and if there is one thing I would take out of a university probably be that um and like I think like i'm a big. Believer in kind and intellectual kind of discussion and instruction about ethics and morality. Like, I actually believe in that a lot.

And I mean, like, I do IT at work, right? Like one of things we talked to employees about is, like, you, you're where in this situation, what are we're going to do? Are we going to do? Like what's transaction? Are we going to what's long term or we can do is right or do what makes us money in the short term?

And like that's like real moral instruction um and with real consequent, it's kind of a real impact. And like i've got ta live with the consequence, they've got ta live with the consequence. Uh and in a way, it's a Better context to do IT in a university where you don't have any accountability, any moral accountability. Uh, so I think you're Better off doing IT almost anywhere than in a university .

or you could or and or you can also, you can reconstitute the original religious university, the original .

idea of .

you can go back, you can go back to the future. You go back to the original idea.

the original .

well, no, no, no, no, no like like not even even further and even further back, I am not suggested going that far back, but not like original hard the original harvard business plan, which was like to instruct moral leaders, right uh and struck pastors and and moral leaders and you just have a you can imagine institution that just does that and just doesn't do all you have everything that a bent out of on for the last four hundred years. Like.

I think be very good in the sense that like, in my lifetime our society is degenerated no place more than you know what's right then right and wrong like there is no agreement on right wrong anymore and you know is stealing right? Well, it's right if you're hungry, okay you know is no there there's certainly no right wrong about marriage of these kinds of things.

And I think that because of a real degeneration of society, quality of life, um you know outcomes of uh of the world. And so like fixing that would be great. But I think what we do and that is bananas IT IT doesn't fit into the current bunch, I would just say so having a independent moral university be fantastic.

There are certainly a rt religious ones um you know the ones that we've lost yeah the ones that we ve lost that I think or maybe the ones that are kind of moral and ethical without being a religious, which is a real chance ge, a real chAllenge in general. But anyway, so keep going. So a sports league, I think you would probably argue that the sports function could .

just be a something yeah I think that like the sports, he gets immoral um just like fundamentally I think .

in retry university university the university based work we .

talked last time time because I gotten to a point where it's clearly a moral and that is very clearly professional sports where they don't pay the employees um and that generate a colossal amount of money um and so I think you've gotten fix that and I don't know that you can pay kind of IT like IT probably the right way to fix IT is to spin IT out um and have IT continue to be filled ated with the university but not run by the university but run you know kind of buy owners of the various teams or something you know more in to the nfl or the N B A concepts what IT is um and you know then the athletes need to get pay that just in crazy it's really wild that they don't the south parked at the very hilarious episode on this called the national crack baby association and they went to the funniest part was hard man went to go see the um you know one of the kind of present the universities and egos and he's dressed like an old southern slave master and he goes, how do you get away with paying with not paying your slaves and he goes, slaves you mean our student athletes and he goes, oh yes, student athletes and you're watching and you're going, yep.

Exactly what's going on now. I because it's not all like not all schools athletic teams make that kind of money and not all athletic teams but the ones that do um I I think need to be reformed like like in retrospect CT, this is one of those things were like people twenty years from amErica going to go like I can't believe you guys did that. You know that's that's going to be bad.

Yeah that's right. Um and then the two the two other ones, the society, these are serious stuff. S but also a little bit, little bit fun so adult day care um and dating site right and so um you know like the adult cares. Let me look, a lot of people just like graduate a high school and go get a job right. And so you know maybe that's maybe that's overwell or maybe you can imagine like new like design communities uh context maybe even uh uh a dire buildings um where you have a you know sort of social cultural you know kind of matters .

that people comply to yeah yeah like me some degree like the armed services have a you know or that function and why um you know where you okay you get to be eighteen. What do you can do with your life? The army go to college. You know like it's it's kind of this community that you step into that's not your family but you know you can't stay here. Um okay, thank I or you know the corporate campus you know for .

a lot of a lot of even even post college lot of corporate campus is that are kind of design to perpetuate adult care yeah right. I'm just .

trying to think of the proposition to the parents who are paying for IT. You know at that point like that.

that is hard and we have a company there was .

something else that came out of IT, you know like that you we want to adult day care and then you ve got a job.

yeah. But we have a, we have a, we have a company where I you know, he was certainly pictured as I don't take care, but we have a company that intended to provide a much more, you know, pleasant and and interesting and enjoyable experience for know, especially people new in their lives and careers as adults from .

a housing and community. Same point. Yes yes um yeah so that yes so that is that's a very good idea. Yeah yeah yeah we can't prana nounce ed but yeah there is uh there is a new idea portfolio that creates a place that is like a college dorm you know from living perspective and has a community and so forth. And so when you pay rent there, um but you know rent some way that you would you know in any apartment, but that kind of is a nice uh bridge from you know coming out of high school or college or what not in into the world in a way where you not just living by yourself somewhere longer. And then a dating site.

you know I am just absolutely furious that the dating ebs tark off after I was dating, before I was finished in. I so like.

this is a hard one. I haven't on a date over thirty five years.

So just so there are new ways for people to date h today that are much easier than when we were in college. And the dating .

site part of IT might only be solved tools, you know that that physical practicing ity a something you can stimulate online. And there was an understanding is there is a lot of fake photos. And what people like Better in their photos, perhaps well, is also potentially.

So also the fact credential in which is one of the reasons why one of the reasons why college campuses, that one of the reasons of college campuses, a hot house for dating, is just a lot of Young people who are together physically. But another reason is because they are all they all have a shared sense of identity um right they all have a shared credential which is they are all you know they're all X X college right and so they've ve been validated you know at least the extent um and by the way, that's also true later on in life.

Know a lot of a people, you know look for a lot of people who are college graduates want know only want to date other college graduates are only want to date people who went to you know certain kinds of schools or whatever. So so the ensure the credential actually like we're flex itself into this other sort of area of actual real life, which is dating, dating and then ultimately marriage and offspring. Um and so you know we should probably both not underestimate the actual utility of an existing college for that, but also think about like yeah but the for example, you know could you dentil the agency? Could independent credential agency also .

dentil U S A potentias a viable marriage prospector dating?

It's exactly. So I I I love that from front the thing. okay. And then we will close over at two hours and so will close here quickly. But I think there's basically fifth the fifth thing that could happen um is just basically just that the existing system could um just I just just on wine and the the way that are on wine is so the credential agency credential functioned shift to the employers. The education courses shift, you know, ala cart, internet options, research bureaux fts.

The functions shift to the kinds of things are we're just talking about policy think tank on wine shifts to the dependent think tanks, you know moral instructor part loses credibility of just with this over time. Social reformer weather arguably happening already. Immigration agency, um maybe that continues, maybe that the ultimate business models just get a get to have a hyping immigrants um sports leagues, you know break out going dependent, become professional sports. You think adults they care dating side, people just find other way to live and date. Um it's so just IT may be that you know IT just simply may be that just things just like on wind um and you know in the scenario sitting here fifty years from now, these institutions still exist in some form but they they look increasingly just like, you know kind of our cake and and you know kind of you know that I just like I don't know just like not you know they just I don't know it's like it's like, no, there's lots of institutions in life just like, wow you know drive down the street and I won't pick on anybody but there that things so exist you know that's interesting and they are just like my flight. Important ah because they kind of they sort of isolate themselves um uh sort of socially and and economically a sort of wolf themselves off from from from the general progress of society as so is yeah how would you think about that?

Yeah like I really think that it's pretty fragile now you know in terms of value proposition and that is so expensive and got. You know that the the cost relative to the value is so precarious. And just like as an example, like if the U.

S. Government said we're not going to guarantee college loans anymore, that would be you know cata classmates. Um and then if employers were like we're not you know there's no sit score, there's no grades that mean anything, there's no rigor um we're just going to not value college degrees anymore that were color.

So there's things that are actually reasonably close to happening that could collapse the system or at least you really alter IT a reva place. So I think that you know the universities very much have to think hard about like showing themselves up on the value proposition in particular. I I think it's getting very weak for students um and that's a dangerous place to be an a fearing university yeah know everyone .

dominate is like I I you know the sound a little bit crazy right now, but I know I don't think we're necessary that far away from a full fledge political revolt um which is the you know the because currency of these places is just it's not a majority society. It's it's a small minority um in terms of the the people who actually benefit from from the the system today in the pipe way in the voter base and then um and then you know lot of these places become so politicized and there's so no, they inject themselves so directly international politics um right and so they sort of have declared declare themselves and you see you see this in every metric and every number of distribution of professor professors ideology and all the social activities that happens so forth like you know overwhelming indications and then increasingly public right I don't like you know just a the two hour mark. I I just you know be be blind um like i'm look like right wing media for Better for worse is just consumed a story after a story after a story of just like crazy bananas, you know crazy hostile things universities are doing um and so you know like you could have IT hasn't happen, but you could imagine on a point where just basically like you, a half or more of the country just at some point puts its oot down and and it's a little representatives but they are foot down there just like we're just not doing this anymore. We're not paying for .

anymore yeah right the country took a sharper, maybe even a not so sharp right turn then you could imagine an administration than a congress can. Where are we going to this? yes. yeah. And it's just .

it's a small number of problem that the really cautionary note here would be it's a small number of programs that pay for the whole thing, right? So it's it's federal student, it's federal research funding. It's as a couple of things, the hax lie and a few other things.

And so it's not like it's not like IT would take IT would not take two years to figure out how to kill these things. Yes, from a legislative legislature standpoint, IT would take about two minutes. And so IT feels like that.

And look, maybe that never materializes because maybe these things just are so important and they have such existing credibility and they have political stroke. And you know, the graduates, I have so much power. And so for and so maybe that never happens or maybe as one of those things where there's a tipping point and at some point, people are just like i'm not gonna, I am not going to .

tolerate this anymore, you so .

now I would like to to share that, but for anybody is still as much as I uh, good all right, good. Uh we I think covered IT. Um we as as predicting the behind.

We did not get to the Q N A. So then if you if you're up for IT, we will continue collection questions. Um and if there is popular demand, we will do one more will will be part three maybe next week and we will do Q N.

And then we will that we'll be six hours of content from us on this time and that will probably be enough for a while. But we have enjoying talking about IT and hopefully you've enjoys with me to IT. yes.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone.