The Art of Technology, The Technology of Art
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Artists have been dealing with technological changes and expressing the visible feelings of inhabiting new technological moments for a very long time. As a person who was looking at the history of artist designing for particular mediums, you could do stuff with mobile and social that you couldn't do before. I think the notion that the proposed, that your roles and artist is to describe how IT feels to occupy that contemporary.

You're not an ethical agent. It's just like I go into the street and I see a giant billboard and IT does something to my heart, and that is culture. When they look at nfs for the first time, I think a lot of them saw outsider. All one of the interesting things about block china's a medium, I think, is that the cultural asset and the financial container is the same thing.

The rap history art has helped us make sense of the most exciting and most of the technology. And simultaneously, technology has constantly rewritten how we express our creativity. Eventually, for example, was influenced by his new understanding of a natomy. Meanwhile, the industrial era was welcomed by images, foreign machines that would forever change society, and cameras, then browsers, then phones, gave artist canvas to create with over and over. Art and technology have evolved hand in hand, and of course, today is no different. In fact, artists are not just creating work about the block chain, but also on the block chain with web through changing the artist to motives ze work this episode, originally published on our sister podcast web through A C C, features Simon than a global artist inspired by entrepreneur culture was cutting at work exists where once again, art and technology color Simon is and with on time asic cy potos onal toxic so if you like this episode, we should have check out more episode des of web 3 with A S in the meantime， I hope you enjoy this episode itself. Is that the intersection of art and technology?

Welcome to web three with a six hands Y A show about building the next day of the internet from the team at a six anc crypto. We're excited to be back with all new episodes. I'm so onal editor chief at a extension y cypher.

And today's episode is all about how technology has changed art and how artists changed with technology from the emergence of the browser, the iphone and social media, to generative art and block chains to n of tea. We also discussed debates that seem to come up in every art text shift, including between inventing versus remixing, between commercialism and art, between mainstream cannon and outside or art, whether we're living in an artistic monoculture now and much, much more. Our special guest is sim Denny, and we recorded this live in london a few days after we opened our london office, which is fitting.

Then danny is a global artist based in britain, but has shown his work in various country's b analyse museums and galleries, including a metaverse landscape solar show called red right on put altman single gallery in safran CEO last year. As reminder, none of the following is investment business, legal or taxi fice. Please see a ic ency docs lush disclosures for more important information, including a link to a list of our investment.

The first half of our hospital conversation tours through the evolution of art with technology, and the second half is deeper in the block chains and art. But we began briefly with danny's tech journey and how he thinks of entrepreneurship as an obviously, this is a cyp to show, and it's also technology show. Eclipsed is all about technology when the reasons i'm in this world is is a very multi disciplinary field brings together economics that brings together philosophe IT brings to other networking IT brings together security cypher graphs like there are so many layers to cypher I do not want to focus on on the art aspect. Tell me a little bit more about your actual practice today, too, and then will will go back .

to the evolution at the moment. Today I work across lots of different media in lots of different context. So I make both installations for museums and art galleries.

I paint as well, but I also am very involved in cyp to and cypher art. So I designed in a tea projects, I guess, maybe where I really specialize as I make things that join the museum world with the critter world. So i'm interest in the history of and who make for new technologies as they emerge to kind of explore what's possible on them.

That wasn't possible on other platforms is previous. But I personally got really interested in people, the people who were making the platforms of people who were designing the systems. Because these when new systems we are experiencing them, we are feeling different ways, doing different things on them.

One of the first times I encounter on terminal IO culture, for example, that just inspired me, unlike, right, because that was so different than the attitude of my top is that I encounter, they were excited. They were bullish about the future. You know, in my world at the time, I think it's actually different now.

But at the time in my art world, IT was very common to be incredibly critical. And synsi was the go to. And I get that culture, I kind of love that culture is sort of like india or something like that. But then I encounter all these incredible optimists. And I was like, well, this this is a force .

that I can't understand goal about that you coming from a cynical kind of devolved yna art world and then being like totally inspired by the optimism. Yeah, because I feel like those of us to look take that for granted. Yeah.

I guess i'm really attracted to value systems esthetically because i'm an autists and I think visually and culturally that I don't know everything about and I don't completely understand you. So I started to go to technology conferences. And the first thing that I did as I went to a prominent conference and munich's LED D L D, and I made an art work about D L D in two thousand and thirteen, one year history of the conference.

A year later, I made amazed that people would walk through in the museum space, just on the road from the conference where IT was a graphic panel for every talk panel, basically. So you would look at pull courts that i'd pulled out from the entire conference and encounter things that was saying, things that the founder of a kip I was saying, pavel do off was saying, like interesting entrepreneur s that they were able together there. And the things .

they were saying about .

the world and IT was whelming. It's so digital. I LED into the design, into contemporary at the time, which look really ancient now, which is really interesting too, because I was like IOS when IT was school of morphs.

M, so IT was like all of these bookshelves as stages as whatever digital button. And and that was the kind of graphic language I used, was like cartoon fund. That looks very strange, but that gives us overall sense of this really viBrant community, which I hadn't really encounter before as an again, the output is a little different in terms of culture.

And that was one of the first times that I was like, well, this is incredible. There are people here who are really optimistic, super exciting ted, about the future. Yes, the critical thinking as well, but they really want to build something.

And that was the first time I encounter that culture. Tell me a little bit about now you actually .

came as an artist to the technology. So yeah, I grow in new zealand. I went to united.

Verity of art like that was the thing that I fell in love with. There's a painter when I Younger. You elan's amazing.

But it's also very small, yeah, and quite remote. And I learned about how big the kind of container ward was, which maybe want to go study in germany. Germany, a really special country for contemporary.

Every little town has a major contempt museum, which is really unusual in the possible period. It's been a really important place for lots of different autists nationally to have do museum shows early incredible education system there. So I went to in in Frankford at this very special school called the stay suller in the mid two thousands.

And at that time, the director of the school was also the director of the and hold the teachers that I was deleting ning from the of these international autists that I saw in the cover of all the magazine that I was reading. So IT was a really exciting hub of international practice. And there I got super interested in the history of technology.

And ah because I move in two thousand and seven and the year the iphone came out and like I move with the laptop didn't have an iphone because I was a brand you very expensive thing. But we were all just starting to use social media like web two and a interesting way. And of course, because I moved away from all my friends and family, that was one of things that really keep me connected, laptop I used for education, watching movies, but also keeping on top of of friends in a really intense way.

And so a bunch of artists that was studying at that time got really interested in this new wave of, like, technology stuff that was enabling a different type engagement. And women, those who don't know germany, it's like Collins, I guess, a place where a lot of content artists live in work. And they were like this little harbor, people that were really interested in the history of contemporary, the history of art made for digital platforms like web out from the ninety nineties, which is a very interesting specialist field. So when browsers came about, when the world blood web started, when people talk using more yeah and nescafe, they were ardest designing for that as a specific I want to .

go back to how when you're in our school, you and your coho came across the iphone for the first time. And you don't necessarily mean think IT visually about the iphone as A A creative medium, the way one thinks about cabes for cave painting, with paper, for drawing or canvas, for painting or L D lights, for a certain kind of electronic art installations at mass scale or whatever knew on. It's funny that you mention that because it's like just sort of like this little tiny, like it's a device, it's a computing device. So can you tell me a little bit about how you and your code at the time sort of experiences the event of the iphone is like the moment that tipped into your interest in the intersection of technology are, I mean.

I think was a conflation of a few different things that I was really compelled by when the iphone came out. One was really strong marketing component to that. I think I was particularly impressed by that. Like the Steve jobs moment .

was very compelling.

The narrow part of that, you know, like the way that Stephen, other entrepreneurs around him at the time, seem to be offering a really cohesive vision of the world, but also the aesthetics that was a kind of a design hegemon y that got installed.

But also as a person who was looking at the history of autists designing for particular mediums, you could do stuff with mobile and social that you couldn't do before, right? Otis had been making amazing outworks for browsers. This is an incredible history of that.

They had even be making outworks that dealt with the culture of companies. There was an amazing brows er base group in the nineties who were called e toy. And there was an e toys was a real company. And I started before e toys that they tended to be quite antigonus. A lot of browser based work from the nineties came from artists who are really resistant to the commercial aspects of the internet.

They were really anti commerce about the internet unit exactly.

And I think they really idealized moments where IT was a more collective. And the commercial part seemed to be a difficult thing, but each to, I think, was an amazing collector, because they were complete the anonymous, and they basically ended up coordinating .

a deal attack on etoit.

the real company to now mean my coffee with less anti right, like i'd come up already through a commercial art world that was offline. I really valued the work that commercial agents were doing to, like, make the work known. And I didn't have a problem with that. And I think a lot of the people who are using social media early will also okay with the idea promoting themselves. So we were less against we designed things that didn't necessarily have this kind of anticommunist .

al message has always been a long history. Intention as you obviously no like artists and the commercial aspect, andy, the most obvious example that comes to mind for that. And it's interesting as we'll get to how this may play out with the N F.

T. world. You talked about the early days of web two browser based art is .

maybe the .

moment in your b web one razer base web to instagram, social and mobile.

One of the greatest exams, I think, of people making out work for social media plus mobile was this work that a friend of malia amount later, like in the early two thousand times. Yeah, and this is one. Instagram was like, really the medium that everybody was using in the art world, at least in world.

And we work all posting our exhibition photos on there, posting selves of ourselves, whatever. But he was like using in in a different way, which he really occupied. This prod o.

Influencer, idm SHE, started taking photos of her, and in gradually over a time, like her image change, right? IT was this kind of art will go more kind of like basic quote on quote looking person, like, you know, her makeup was more extreme. Her body became more extreme.

And then at one point, he was announcing that he was gonna surgery on her body. know. And then we as our community voice, that you who were like ww I is like really changed, like this is like really super difficult.

And then he had these incredible prem post things of an Operation, whatever. And then IT came out that IT was all the performance, and we were all completely jumped by the whole thing. IT was really, really believable. And if IT used all of these emerging properties of that medium to really do something that said, something about the way that the world was going.

yes, that sounds like performance are actually think I heard about this way. exactly. And speaking of the specific corporations, that medium, you also mention the word proto influencer, which I think is very interesting, because obviously there is an element of influencers today on instagram and beyond in social media and influence or culture. So this is sort of three that was emergent with IT. I and I think this.

what could doing? They are seeing emergent properties that are happening both in visual conventions, like how photos are looking, because I was the thing, like visually, there was a particular style to these images, right? They're came from the hardware, came from the way that the phone looked.

came from the lighting that was common.

Yeah, exactly. And all of those things come together to make a particular medium impossible, including the network, right? I think is also interesting in the .

network org is in the community around or network of her followers and her social graph or what do you need by network?

I think there's a few different maps as a performance piece happened first to her friends that knew her because the strangers of experiencing that change was the thing that made the effect, right. The dead network of friends also had a second order network of people that knew of her. So this plastic social network, kind of social graph world out into, but also the hardware like technological layer of the network, where you couldn't have these distributed performative moments without iphones, without satellites, without cables. So it's really like a quite a lot of things coming together in this network.

interesting. So then, Simon, on that note, what are some of the other milestones for your experience and evolution as an artist in the technological moment?

I mean, artists have been dealing with technological changes and expressing the visceral feelings of inhabiting new technological moments for a very long time. The realism and daughter as a early twenty century moment that dealt a lot with the changes, both and advertising, language, you know, ank mediums around communication. Realism really leaned into the illustrative aspect of that.

But like dota and stop at us, like cobia and people making images of machines of post industrial revolution kind of worlds, a lot of early modern m is depicting machine ic worlds. When you then jump let side of the postal period in the one thousand nine sixties and seventies, you started to have groups of artists around pop and neo pop, dealing again with the language, advertising and envious commercial culture. Like Robert rush book is a proto pop dust, working with people like in collectives like E, A, T. The experiments in autumn technology happen in dialogue with bell labs.

S at the time, oh, I yeah, I know i'm not .

an expert, but was this really amazing moment where these very prominent people were in dialogue with people in bell labs? And so they made experimental, technologically sculptures? There was one russian big piece that i'm thinking of.

Actually, I don't know you made IT an E A T or not, but IT was like a bit of mud that was bubbling that then had a sensory component on IT as well. Like like really amazing kind of machine and object based work, but also a lot of kind of theory based experiments and performances, which were also done with other computer systems. There was also a people being given, for example, early porter packs, which was the kind of first video equipment by SONY.

So SONY was really involved in donating to artist groups. And there was an artist group that was in new york that was really innocent to the whole list catoe in the store brand. And well, right there was another magazine called radical software, which was produced at the time as well.

And radical software was run by an early artist CoOperation, called rain dance CoOperation. They went, CoOperated themselves, and they had a space in new york. We have several porter packs were us could come and use, they would make footage.

They would bring the footage back, and then they would make oldest libraries that you could pull a stock footage and and make montages from. So that was also like a really interesting early moment that inspired me a lot. yeah.

And out of that crew came early experiments in broadcast television and cable network television. There was an amazing collective called top value television, and therefore, example produce, one of the most amazing autists made documentaries that was then screened on cable television at the time, looking at medicine avenue. And advertising produces, but also a nixon convention they went and made of of political documentary. And then, of course, there's like more .

famous examples like walle television example of the stock library type of idea that people could take, and that you said that inspired your world. What really stuck in my mind about that is like, that's like an analog version of remix culture. absolutely. And so tell me about how to inspired your .

words specifically. Well, i'm a history actually show here in london in two thousand and twelve at the institute of the ica, where I managed to convince the broadcasting network who are changing over from analog broadcasting to digital, to give us one of the old analogue broadcasting machines.

And I dumped that on the medal of institution, temporary od, and put all of these libraries of old network videos made by people like granddad's corporation in the appears around in a video library, which people could watch them. And one of the things that I found in an archive of theirs was a way of categories, zing, different types of types. They made early, static versions, representing what was being made in those library.

So I found those resident with what people were doing on youtube, but other autistic peels of mine were making which, what kind of remix things and appropriated things. A bunch of my work is very liberal with ownership. I believe that one doesn't invent something.

I believe that one finds things and combines them with things. So I prefer the notion of like a value ad, then like a kind of invention. So I don't believe that you can invent things. This is why I think movements like pop up was so profound, because the direct, appropriately touch of making an image of a camera scan and claiming that is an original thing, reconnecting alizon IT was one of the biggest things. And I think sampled lure and all of that stuff.

like built on the back of the assumption. So personally, fascinating too. We talk about some other preinstalled ces in the technological side, the stark about some of the post influences post iphone like there are any other .

technological moments. yeah. So I think the next book moment, in the mid two thousand, I was luckenough to do the the pavilion, new zea, the Venus, like the biggest start show in the world, and this country by country pavilions.

So I got to do new england. And in order to do that, I was two thousand and thirteen and fourteen I was working on IT, and fifteen I presented IT. I was interested in the week league moment.

At that time I was like trip pegler were involved in those communities, so I was sort of perfectly aware of those groups around transparency and stuff like that. When they released all these documents, I found the kind of like clip out on the dod and internal nsa documents. I found them really esthetically surprising these very playful images that representing very .

serious thing that's so you had literally .

like a magic card standing info, like a bigger sense of that was looking in on everybody's privacy, whatever. But I was so interested that I really wanted to find some concrete example of who was making those images, who were those of us, right? And I found this one guy, linton page, the David j.

Cord and David chi d. Was self per planned on his lincoln. This is a game. Social media. Od, in a way, he claimed that he was the creative director of the nsa for the twenty years proceeding the leagues, and he had a really big adobe platform portfolio of his work on as well.

Also, we had designs he's done for the na, slip mats, mouse pads, training posters, all these things. And I made copies of all of them. I made giant interpretations of his work. I changed medium from them.

So I, I make sculptures out of things that were diagrams, and I, I situated them in this library, right in the middle Venus, next to the doge's palace, which was designed by sense. Vo is very important arctic, and that is a very old nate room that has images of dwarves and wizard, and all these fantasy things that went into tinter redo. And all these artistic were working in that period.

And I put his work along side their work. And there were these crazy energy beard man, strange books, fantasy image that was throughout the material in clip art form, was very close and resonant with these kind of like Venus on images. And also, I guess the key thing was that was a performance of peace.

because I did propria .

moment that he found out that that happened was when the gardien called him on the opening day. And I hate, know this, a bunch of stuff with your work.

React, by the way.

I think he was a little confused. And what is .

this guy doing with this?

Yeah, I mean, that was really important to him at the time. This the garden article two, when the gardien spoke to him, that was really important that he was attributed, which he was. His phone number was on there, just like I was on the web.

That was part of my gesture. And I think he found a really interesting, of course, as the gesture was a little bit like performing something like what the nsa was performing on all of us. But on the autistic work, yes.

And I think that was again complicated by the fact that I was from new zealand. This is U. S. Certain sense. So I think there was a lot of really interesting tensions around ownership.

right? And it's funny because the technological underpinning are fascinating to me because you said briefly that in a way, him putting that he was a creative director for the nsa on his lindon profiles, almost performance are exactly. And then the other point is that these materials you're talking about, these artifacts were leaked online yeah.

And I think this brings up the kind of odd networks that preserve and take care of culture. I think they take care of things that otherwise not seen and not cared for. So I really like to act in the domain. But of course, that's a sort of object based medium in itself. You want to go to a room in the museum and you want to have a rich experience in there translating, browse a best work into a projector in a room doesn't always work so well.

right? Did you create IT for the .

O I create the the way that IT works as you get commission, you can do what if you like, you work the, create the government of the country sponsored and a sort of present.

whether any other technology stones on the way to crypto. And more so I mentioned this piece .

that I made where I was looking at entrepreneurs through diety, through going and hanging out a conference that was really inspiring esthetically ally and everything.

For me. It's so finny to hear about entrepreneurship.

Yeah, I love IT. And so this is the thing I into the berlin of that time as well. And I made a series of works about Young stopps.

So for example, I took a wide round up like top ten startups and berlin, and I made almost like a deal toy meets a gaming computer meets a kind of like a piece that might go on a trade for a booth or something like that. And I would make this pop art inspired sculptures that were celebrating the cultural entrepreneurship. That was something that I ended up commenting in a big show that I did also in two thousand and fifteen, that mom P.

S. One, which was called the inna, named after IT rought. Together, a bunch of different project, in general, about entrepreneurship. I made something about south korean entrepreneurship. I made a big project about samsung during those years as well, which looked at their turn to be more global in the nineteen nineties.

I also did a really big round of work based on Peter til I was inspired, a moment in new zealand where I was realized tear was a citizen. And I made like a big proof of artworks that were based on board gaming and the language of gaming, which map logical came from the world, which is very, very influential in entrepreneurship. So I did to show that was at a small gallery in all, kinda is really not kind of big space.

But Peter ended up coming now. He ended up seeing the show. We ended up getting in touch after that when you ve been still based on sample go. And that was, again, this really interesting moment of bringing in the way that certain ideas we were received in the local space with something that was very influential in the business world, in the technology world.

I also made outworks about kindt com, who is this german finish entrepreneur who build a platform called mega upload, which was one of the most used piracy network. Thanks for downloading, like hollywood content. And he was sued by the U.

S. Government, I think in two thousand and thirteen, two thousand twelve even. And there was a massive bust on his home, which was a collaboration between the new zealand armed forces and police network and the U. S. And they tried to extract .

him ever sense of covers. I was .

very red by the time he was based in new zealand, and the whole bus went down in this very gratious property. And I have to say he's still living in new england. I never managed to actually successful ly extra dide him and he made other platform since I was also watching all of my contents on his platform at the time. There was another thing living in germany, you could not get .

net lix at the time, were all parts at some point before you grew up in any point. The nineties, that was all prenez flix s like. That was the only way to get things. Yeah, remember burning cds.

Look, IT is a creator. And there's a big difference .

when you talked about how you are doing little appropriation are in the case of that nsa artist, that's like a specific performative suggest yeah, I suggested exactly. Now i'm mortified as a creator at how I treated other creators works when I realized that we just like burn cds, our friends.

this is like A B to n as well, right? A bit also about, like what is promotion, what is popularity, what is attention, value, worth and way to you monitor ze that burning CD is is a proto expression of that problem.

You mentioned a few times, actually this time between and and I want to go back to IT. Yeah, he is quick fascine. As a threat in your work. You seem very inspired by advertising. And like a lot of people do.

you tell, not so unusual within the art world that I occupy that essentially, pop is a really great example, because everybody, y's of ahl. But there's many practices that came in the wake of that big idea, and also the scale that he was able to bring to that big idea. I think the notion that poa proposed that your roles and artist is to describe how IT feels to occupy that contemporary. You're not an ethical agent. It's just like I go into the street and I see a giant billboard and IT does something to my heart and that is culture, right?

That is claim of that is culture. yeah. But one thing I do have to ask you about on the advertising and also globalization, the two teams here yeah but I think back to like when I just go to india and I like boyband posters, which is so that actually is dying art now. But IT was an incredible thing to see that art form, especially in my parents tiny village. Yeah, and it's like .

this pop of color and this kind .

of almost desert landed. I one of my friends, she's also in off the Virginia postel SHE went a book call glam, which actually it's unna use other word glamor because IT has certain specific connotations to IT, which great. But I do have to ask assignment.

Like do you think there's also this kind of monoculture that's happening because of that globalization and in that aesthetic? Because I feel, especially in the case of pixel art, that there was a point when everyone got a little too digitally influenced and everything started looking like the eight bit and got very bored that yeah yes. And so I just do think there's a sort of homogenization happening as well in this.

Yeah, I guess this is a narrative that .

comes up from .

time to time. I mean, it's not about charge context of conversations about how homogenous things are becoming because of like the speed of traveling is. But I don't really believe that, that will ever make a true of modernization.

And my understanding of the way that cultures have emerged is they always emerging hybridization. right? There is no such thing.

Again, this is a original question, right? Is no such thing as a true original flavor of ex O Y. There's no first anything and there's only kind of encounters. And I tend to think i'm sort of like an encounter, like something. I mean, I .

literally ve IT to .

the things on the but .

I tend to think that .

more hybridization is always positive. And I don't believe that this true 和 moganshan ation really ever happens。 There are of trends and moments where certain boring sis settle into a market or whatever, where a lot of people trying to do that thing.

And yes, I get very bored about that very quickly. Boring emotion and stuff is boring in emotional. And I think the way that nf stratified very quickly in two thousand twenty one, and to particular, jonas bought the hell of me. I mean, this is true in the ot world as well as the city art world, like expensive things are considered to be important.

But on the age of those things, I could tell you ten examples of things that did incredible stuff with the kernels of things that went into those stra, but they did something truly amazing on the side of IT, at the fringes, at the side of those movements are always something where they mixing. That was something it's never been seen before. And then that makes something new.

And I think that's a very old story. I also think globalization is a much older story that is often assumed. Cultures have been mixing across jasa, for example, for very long time.

totally. I love that you point IT out that this kind of intermixing has been happening for like you, that's great.

There are many examples across the history of art and culture of things that happen on the fringe of those environments that are a little harder to see at the time that do is get really excited about around them as they happen, but don't scale in the same way, don't reach the same Price points, don't into the same museum collections that then kind of later looked back on and seen that these things that happened there, that we're just super exciting, right?

Fascinating, even the outside art movement, this is a very literal interpretation, or friend. And I know what you mean, is friend is more nuances. And that book, I have a piece by Howard vendor. It's one of his dinosaurs, little cardboard cut out dinosaurs, a little platform, and his hand written in sharp, all these big verses like, kind of like fire and brimstone. And it's really fascinating because he was an x minister. And to me that's an encounter between like Christian faith and thinking, combined with this encounter with evolution and what that means because it's like so bizarre to have like diverses on a dinosaurs really good.

So oh god, oh yeah. I think what's really interesting about outside general as a category is really interesting because I think a lot of people that came from the outward that i've been talking about up until now, like the world that circles around museums and affairs and doloris, when they looked at nfs for the first time, I think a lot of them saw outside or out, right? Because IT was people who are not trained in the art tradition, who were given a certain technological stack, who were able to create and promote and sell whatever work.

And that kind of opened up to a whole. But IT would definitely not scowled in the cannons. And then, lots of super interesting, we had stuff happened on the side of those, which I have personally found as a wealth of compelling examples of emerging culture.

And then they became own kind of emotion initiations pending buildings within that. Community around N, F. ties. And those things I found often a little lesson for think.

you know what I mean? Yes, I D ask. And just one more minute. I am also trying to think of when outsider art becomes establishment in other ways.

A very canonical example, a very strange hierarchy that gets establish, especially with the use of the term outsider IT also got a brand, somebody is not ligious and included them in the canon. But as an outside right, I mean, these tensions are very strange. It's about academy veris not and people who are able to say that's important and that's not and value. And we have money, lies and all these other things that are really interesting around culture OK.

great. Let's talk now about blocking encysted art. So you mentioned, like all these technological miles ones on your way to your evolution is an tell me about how you came to watching art yeah.

So of course, if your muddling around in berlin, in the communities that building new products and new companies in the early mid two thousand hs, you come across the coin.

And the more I dug into the coin culture, the more fascinated I was was just like, as somebody who's looking for new, inspiring narratives, this notion of sovereign free money, I didn't started to pay attention to people who are kind of advocating around, exerts voice and also self sovereign. I read the foreign individual as a book. And then of course, in berlin you hood about a theory um is IT emerged because the a the foundation was getting set up and started this.

So for the twenty sixteen balin bian, I I made my first big piece about crp tou. And that was three different fictional trade, fiber ths. Based on three different entrepreneurs that we're looking at, three different narratives are emerging from blockchain.

One of them was life masters. So life masters was coming from the banking world, right? He came out of securities in the ninety nineties, and he made this company at the time called digital asset.

I made a big kind of installation about her. I made a big installation about logy, about one. Don't think before IT was changed. what? And then I made a big about a serum and motel c and and I was like those three narratives I was looking at at the same time. Yeah, I made little hostage stamps that I worked on with the german postal, because I thought poster ers sense with both expressions of sovereign, right. They were also design objects, and they were also kind of a currency .

like a parallel rancy. That's lots, by the way, fasting about postal stamps is that they are expression of sovereignty. But they also like ways to get out. They move objects around the world. Today.

the perfect score perform for work about this emerging network.

So far, you described how you were using botchan and cypher as inspiration for your art, the subject matter of the art. But now watching as a medium.

let's talk about that. yeah. So there were a few people at that time who was start to N, B. On coding on emerging block chance, right? So there was a project called to describe, which was actually something the talent worked on as well at the time, which was an early system that tried to put outworks and linked them to the bitcoin network.

Ah there was a conference in two thousand and fourteen at seven, on seven that rise on did, which was connected to the new museum where they pair an artist with a technologist OK, and at the time they design something based on color coin, which was essentially an nf ty. And then I started to learn about other projects. I learned about tera zero, which was a really interesting project, which was a group that were proposing to make trees own themselves as entities. Is the sales?

Yeah, exactly.

They would like, look, if you can do a blockchain system based on a theory, if you can have small contracts, then why not give the sovereignty of ownership to the trees? Why not have a al forest on the produce of its own work? I was fascinated by that.

So I created a little show in two thousand eighteen at a space and willin called the shinko pavilion. And that was about artists that were doing these experiments. So also including, that was complicated.

So I don't know if you remember this, but Christ did a weird little collaboration with consensus, where they sold a hardware wallet with a specially design crop, where gay to sky was the guy who invented the vision. Expect of the gypt. C projects are not the .

kind of mechanics.

but the special S. I made a special one, and they sold IT as a hardway, which was also especially designed. And an and IT was big news. The york times. So I included that in the show included forest project in the show, I included other auto chia corlaer, who was also working at around nosis at the time, doing interesting designs for that. And the whole show was set up.

The territorial premise was also based on block chains because I didn't want to decide everybody on the show, I asked, somebody has to choose two things, and then they would choose two things. And then we did a transparent publishing of all of the decision makers on the wall. As accurate.

your protocol to you turn creation, the act and art of creation itself, into a form of art. Yeah, that actually also .

showed the process of actually to making, right? And so yeah, we had this kind of protocol that we design where everybody, you who picks them for being in the show, and I wasn't making all the decisions, and that show was called proof work. But that was way before tags were a thing.

yes. And before we talk more about N, F, T, yes, what do you think is unique about block chains as a medium? 嗯。

you know, one of the interesting things about block, china's medium, I think, is that the cultural asset and the financial container is the same thing. Yeah, right. That sort of true.

And in a way, literally an N. F, T. Those things are much more structure combined to art.

And like art design for social networks, they are also like network objects. They are connected to other things. And settled is a media, right? I mean, one of the things that artists are really, really excited about with the emergence of prochaine out, and this is really going to the team moment now, but the idea that you could have settlement immediately on sale and that you wouldn't have to have an intimidating because, you know, galerius and whatever, it's very complicated system. So this simplicity and the directness of that was really attractive.

But also this notion of real yalies, the idea that you would sell something on a secondary market, and immediately the original creative would receive some compensation for that. That's been something that the outworlders been dreaming about since the seventies. There is a conceptual of piece by a very famous curator set, sea globe, that he did in the early nineteen, nineteen seventies, called the artist contract.

So let's think about nf visibility. So we've obvious ly been dancing around that this entire conversation, but I think clipped to artists bigger than just N F T, to be clear. And block chains as the medium is bigger than just N F T.

So we agree on that, but let's talk about IT. IT takes specifically because that's the thing that really captured the mainstream attention and actually maybe even catapulted cyp to into much more mainstream awareness. And to be clear, I mean, this well beyond a financial aliza i'm talking about is an artistic thing. This includes multiple auction houses, like doing N F T action, like being participating in the multiple people who only came to cypher for the first time, accept a wallet in order to buy. Nf, who knew, of course, we knew that culture would be the thing that brings people, the .

technology logical, but I don't think that was a given.

So interesting to me. why?

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think the moment that change from me, from knowing about a small group of people missing around the block chains.

making up with IT to like the post people option moment.

yes, that's maybe like exactly. And that was also in khuds with the auction houses. I mean, people was not an unknown entity before that auction, but he was known in the graphic d's world, right? Like he was a very, very well known gure. But then with the signal from the blue chip art world, you from those auction houses, I think those are the things that .

created their change and awareness. Think I N A give what?

Well, if I think like to wait to, for example, I don't think culture was the thing that ruled that into like mainstream awareness and usage. I mean, less you have sociis a lair of cultures, which I guess one good. And I think I in a way, but it's not high culture like you didn't learn about facebook mice space because of an exponent art, whether I think a lot of people's mainstream adoption and understanding of which proof came around that moment which was associated with the and an artist where one also didn't happen like that. You didn't hear about the internet because you heard of some auto .

peace being made by not? No, I agree. I totally agree with the mutilations conversation that culture emerges.

And so what do you think about this moment? Made this like the time, like why now? Well, I mean, I think auction .

houses are always looking for new things, new markets, theyve constantly done that. You know, before the one nine hundred and seventies and eighties, they didn't sell context, for example. They only sold old masters. yes. So moving into new areas is kind of like a text book thing. But then defy summer came, and there was an all the liquid he created the ecosystem from people who'd been successful, which then I started to filter n to these cultural assets, right? And I think that was what built up to the why they are.

because they could have also funded that liquidity .

into something else. I can answer that question yeah, but I think people want to buy out that support the cultures that they believe .

it's about identity .

and belonging and exactly an affiliation. And people who'd been excited by what was possible within the world, within the kind of gentle saw, an emerge cultural package, edited the value of that. And they were like, okay, I believe in this culture, and I think that mostly really happened around P, F.

P. Yes, like I, I like crypto .

kit and cyp to p artifically is really interesting mechanism. You sell something initially to a large community. A bunch of people hold the same thing.

And then that also moves around in networks that changes owner, ship on or to honor, right? And with that, the community growth, the people who have touched that. And that means that a large group of people are suddenly almost practical participators in kind of one cultural moment, right? In one cultural asset.

no. I mean, actually they are designed to participate in networks. The province ce is important. Know where I came from.

where going to the relationship part. Cells are in the cloud. Yeah blockchain.

One of our colleagues, tim rough garden, calls block chains, computers in the sky. Yeah IT. Could they Operate without like any central? Anyway, they're accessible at all. You talked earlier about coming from new zealand.

This idea, like the borders and inspiration for eating like almost global yeah by default yeah this is that exact very example at the probability of the asset. It's not just that. It's like the portability of your humanity, your identity, like who you are, your network yeah or even belonging in a network regards to border police location into a different kind of identity online.

yes. And I mean this a sort of more humanity side to this argument as well like know the donor Harry notion of the community of kin, but it's that within a digitally design outward network, I mean, so well, one of the cool things that I found in our school was like me, and this one other person loved this one out work by this one artist. And we found a passion in the meant we were compatible across all. So.

oh my god, you know? So, right? Yeah, I have upset.

Favorite artist is as new orleans artist name. Rebeca rubbish. M A big fan of her.

Very fantasy. A lot of oral. I love that type of thing. Lect a pieces. As I went to her art patron dinner and I went to multiple shows of hers, yeah and I feel like the community that comes around, the art, these other people I ve never met before, right? I have no history, no demographic in common. It's like an instant affiliation and true connection yeah the because what Better proxy yeah for the understand that kind of like same shared of oh g it's .

a really precise cultural signal. There is also another outbreak that I want to mention here that is maybe less known and is working differently than many in the ties in terms of dynamics. It's a project by sera friend, at which I actually showed an another created so that I did later on called proof of stake.

And that was all about ownership, particular. And he did the peaceful life forms, which were designed on polygon. But the N.

F. Ties were designed to only live court on, quote, if they were. And so they had like a time life programmed into them. And where if they stayed in one wallet longer than three months, they would completely .

self self. Yeah, got if you had to. Og, Crystal, oh, yes.

And the artist is Michael jew, and he did IT with Daniel Rivera, ich. co. Anyway, what's really fascinating about IT is at the N F. T, to your point, like that's an example of like that has to be transferred .

in order to exist.

Me, I love called me. This is really interesting in the coral ref diversity side, where every time you transfer this N F T like the properties of other things in network on's collection ah in habit, is I an organism? Yeah inhabit and N F T.

So what happens is, for instance, if you own, like me, bx yeah, then that nf t, the Crystal, the form that expresses, will have, like this, like three d like kind of cubic element to the exactly. And IT evolves. And so the art itself evolves as IT gets transferred.

which I think is so yeah fascine like that is.

I have goose by talking about this because that is the essence of truly being native to the media yeah, because it's not just taking something and then taking IT and like, oh, and apply to block chain is taking the inherent nature of block chains and evolving that with the are is just incredible to me.

Yeah, I agree. And the online offline connections also still really important. Even the virtual is a physical right, because screens are real, pixel are real, you know, like networks are made of atoms as well as and the recent body of work that I I made that was actually named a little bit close to this book from Chris. So I made oil paintings .

of other people's universe.

property tokers made in. I thought about territory, I thought about community, I thought about history. And I thought about, like, the fact that these tokens, when I looked at something like the central and or sandbox, is very popular trip to best metaverse.

When I looked at the ownership tokens for owning a piece of property in those worlds, I saw a grid that looked to me like midnight tury painting because it's a great these projects, if you buy a token, you get an nf t. That looks like a pot of the map of the project. But I was thinking all that so interesting, because that looks so much like instance repainting.

And then I was like, I wouldn't be funny to paint that actually. And I was like, that would be a landscape painting of a piece of property in the midwest. That so weird.

And there is like, what is landscape painting? And that again, and goes back to my background. I grew up in zealand. The first thing we learned about is colonial landscape painting.

And I was like, all my god, when I see these this greedy system, it's like modern m is being projected onto the metaverse. You so it's taking an old modern drop and putting into the moth. But IT was important for me to underlined that network element as well.

So while there were paintings of somebody else's property, I included two Q R codes on the side of the each painting, and the first one links to the original property. So you can kind of look at the property that depending is also, you know actually because that's interesting as well about metaverse interfaces that's already gone through a few rounds of Q X. So the painting is often kind of early version of a landscape.

And then you have a link to the what the real one looks like now. But then I designed an N F T that looks like an honest car, that you would get a monody for only a peace party and tells you who owns that piece right now. And IT links you to the person that that owns that piece. But it's also permissionless, right? So it's a painting which is permissionless of a property that you don't own that then you have a kind of other piece of ownership property that always .

links you to the person who it's so fast expLoring the nature of otherness. yeah. So this is the exhibition you debuted in san Francisco. Why did you tittle IT read right out?

Well, I was really interested in always like what a good description of what's different about networks, right? When I read about Chris is book coming out and read, write on was kind of like underlined as a way to sum ize, you know, web one, web two, web three was a title of the book. IT resonated with also the design on the cover.

IT was a little of square in the middle and a kind of landscape like object around IT. And I was like, all my god, like, this is what i've been painting. I've been painting the difference of ownership, and like to and with three, and kind of how these things like up.

Also like ownership is really something that's really important. And IT always has been important, you know. And so people owning properties, owning images of other properties. Again, these notions around landscape, when you paint a landscape IT doesn't mean you own IT, right? It's a picture of something you often do.

On the other thing that's fascinating to me about what you're saying about this is that this idea of ownership and what you're doing, what the paintings and your exhibit for read on this, is idea to that we ourselves are transient human, and the ways we put our stamps on the world, sometimes like the only thing that indoors is art IT, whether physical or emotionally, like the things we leave behind. Ah and it's funny because I used to be a huge .

fan of Crystal john clay.

big fan. I love landscape. Are you would think it's so a named like you're putting plasti C2Cover tre es.

How is this art? But I love this idea that humanity is conquering nature in a way that's not like extractive, but that's actually beautifying IT and showing our present yeah and I find that building like it's just beautiful. There's something extremely exquisite about IT which I bringing up because that resonate with you're describing .

with the red exhibit you well, exactly I would basically, as a giant sculptural gesture would wrap significant thing, for example.

was like a really one actually one of the ivy died. The spouse is still alive. Yes, and they just did like the wrapping of the .

to try on exactly so often symbolic things, but also .

hold islands .

surroundings. But that makes a monumental .

gesture. But touch, but IT is light touch, but it's so heavy in the moment that is there. And by the way.

logistically credibly different.

Oh my god, you had a massive engineering project. And I bring that up because IT is an example of how art is engineering. And you're .

describing like a lot of technology is art engineering, but as well, like zero, that we design, you know, the notion of of being able to give ownership to trees over their own soldier space. You know, these kinds of things are only possible because technologists have architecture .

of A T platform or certain environment. yes. yeah. So some quick lighting rap up first. There's a couple of a time up and bring a cle. So one is you've talked a lot about commerce and the relationship to commerce. What you think about this in the context of N F T and art N F, what would you say beyond office of evaluation aspect?

Well, one of the things about nf and art effect that the kind of financial container is the same as the the container, one of the knockout effects that has happened because of that is that often value is a crude completely to Price. And I think that is not necessarily the case for all culture, right? Like this is a term like Price less. Often you talk about Price less cultural works, but also this is this notion that something cheap can also be something valuable. And I think that's harder to express in the current technological stack of N F T.

What do you think the n well.

I think that there should be another layer of a cruel ing and showing value in N F T projects. That is not about how much the cost i'm thinking about, like something that could be like a territorial infrastructure for giving different signals that aren't only expressed and how expensive something is. Of course, expensive things that are in museums are important culturally evaluable that way as well.

And part of the Price of them being so expensive is about how much they love this culture. But you can make something experimental that might not sell at first, or that might not be expressed as something expensive as first. That will later be something that is and really valuable. This is notion of the event god, which is something really important to modern m, where you can have a small group of people doing an experimental thing, really unpopular and very hard to understand at the time, that then later gets preter and valued in a different. Know and I think that's a little bit missing from the N T R world ah, where financial success is the only expression of cultural value is not .

the about all these properties like there's community, there's belonging, there's expression yes, the esthetic, there's technological opinions. There are so many different decisions you can access something on. It's a reputation yeah like I totally see that there needs to be more dimensions on one example that I think is really fascinating here.

So I co edited a peace by ka shelf ld, who works at VISA, and he wrote a very thoughtful peace on fani hollywood. And this idea that you can essentially create characters, that we can be represented by nf, and essentially create, like, a whole set of story telling around these characters. And so the idea is that N F T are characters. And the other point is it's really about who gets to make this is a recurring theme in what you ve been talking about, yeah, who gets to make these characters? Because right now it's like centralized disney, like a certain .

type .

action idea, share and create this IP. But the real idea here is like then of tea, in that sense represent community yeah belonging, character creation, collaboration and then like a community of story telling yeah.

And it's funny because I was debating this a bob I A couple months after we did our podcast together with critic tics, and that we did on the show, which he kind of brought up like, is IT really possible to tell really good stories in a decentralized way? And I was like, you know, it's funny, you say that because you acquired lucas film, and we know about star wars, like this franchise that was created out by one person. And after that, many people took over an extended the cannon and did different things at the stories. Yeah, but there's actually a press story that no one talks about, which is that starts itself is oil myth and story telling has been propagated .

over century cott es.

The and that bubbled up into what became star wars, which now has become there's a cannon and and that went beyond canon. And then we went back to a new canon. Yeah, and it's like continuing. And so if you think about the N F T aspect like this is very empowering for people.

and you could add value that way. This is my pop thing, and the best parts of which is permissions thing that was in into canvas, this notion that you can kind of take something that has a powerful effect in the world, like a camel can, or whatever, that has a cultural effect that you live in and live with, and you can work with that and make expressions of your own. I mean, that's kind of what any world, in a way, you know. And there was no kick back behind. But in a way, there was an attention kick bag or a kind of valuation of branding kick bag, maybe eventually because it's like the the notion of the candles, but I think there could be a more nuanced ecosystem around defining that was edited in that.

that I do want to ask you a question about, like where you think generative are and block chains intersect.

I think we get to a little bit of problem here with like term definition as well because like I understand the broader definition of a general pieces of through now has come to mean cloquet like a particular esthetic. Actually, that is not about the process. It's rather about like all this looks sort of like an abstract shape IT has a gradient to yeah I find that trobe unfortunately little dull because this is whether the modernization question comes in and the ad actually starts to get really boring. But the notion of like auto sitting up protocols and having output and a methodology .

that I find interesting yers. So one is the as like you actually have a beginning of something and IT sets up a protocol yeah and that creates a certain output.

the dynamic nature, I mean the og Crystal L L E gene and generative odd because this is a bad necessity thing as well, right? If you want to make a collection of a thousand things, yeah you not onna design every single .

one from scratch and configuration, which is there is something that's truly generated. It's like unknown what the outputs gona be. Some of the P, F, P projects found this category, not all, but something just be even more nuance about IT. It's actually in that case, more that you have a set of attributes that you're just applying the cypher covin like you know each of those, which is they have a very thought ful.

They actually written some beautiful pieces or link them in the show note and how they thought about like sort of the properties that would manifest as different people minted the is and that's another aspect of that to agree with that. Yeah and then there's a third part which you're saying you're kind of bored by and I don't disagree to some extent, which is side of this aesthetic yeah, now this is all what genre art looks like. I persons do love that .

that I I agree .

bit like there's that can and it's like really interesting people who are doing very interesting rifts on IT. Yeah, those are people. Bb, a bubble, certain element solo IT. How would you connect him into this moment again to basically .

design instructions? And when you bought a out piece of those, you bought the right to perform the instruction, or even the right to employ somebody to perform. So it's kind of an algorithm you buy, which is really amazing. These are for wall drawings in the case of solar wind. And like coincidently, they look like what we think of as generated.

because based on kind of .

Victors and like know gradients and lines and patterns. And still, so IT has this of abstract, and that reminds us of what we think of generated now. But solar wit, to me, the interesting part is weirdly so i'm going to say something maybe controversial here.

Love you like the notion of buying. The idea is the thing that I like about solar wood, the way they look on the wall. I mean.

fine, i'm with you, but you oh my god, I with Simon. In fact, this is a great example where I think people and as a collector, i'm very careful to watch myself for if i'm following for the idea, everything and also the actual visual response of things. So sometimes that you have to hold myself back yeah, because intellection yeah, definitely that's a component of my decision making yeah, yeah.

I have to really respond to like the visual language, like symbolic. But at the same time I have to have a visual response yeah, inside that I feel something yeah and visual response that I want to look at IT every day. And that's incredible and a very difficult to capture.

It's very difficult, but that's the holy grail of the year. But I do think like some projects in the academic lot moment, which came up in the mid century, in the six and seventies place of the anti visual right, the work IT didn't exist. You will only move by the pure idea, right? That was like a kind of esthetic notion that came up around the conception.

And I mean, the earliest example of that, that has actually been interestingly revisited in an ft, actually, is, if kind, and this moment of the kind of invisible at work, he made a piece that was made in french. And basically he was one of the first motions in the late fifties where people bought something that was actually invisible, and you are only buying the ora as a kind of zora. Interestingly, an artist mitchill chain also revisited that in two thousand and seventeen, prior to the protocols that became.

But he designed an immaterial outlook that was on that notion as a history, because what felt like at the time you were buying, when you bought an nt, was very feral. And that work, for example, I love, even though there's no visual necessarily, but IT, as moved by IT as I am by a very visual painting know, sometimes just the idea is the thing that moves you. Yes.

there's also this thing that happens with early technologies where people are limited. They think they don't see the expressivity that's possible. And so they almost go for the most reduction ist way of interpreting that piece and thinking about IT and that to bring about, to generate about today.

Yeah, I think we're gona see a lot more very interesting things happen. One thing I will say from a technological perspective, I ask everybody this question because i'm obsessive generate of again for very long time yeah, which is what is unique about block chains. Genever is not native to black chains as a medium, yes, but it's like it's found its native medium block chains.

yeah. And one of the technological answers I heard from one of the people on our team, Michael bw, and a couple of people who made this observation that at the end of the day, I was so compute intensive to unfold like the code and the package and the storage involved. So is something really great about having this executable on chain. Yes, that lets you kind of on these things usually. So I I think you will be really fascinating city as like the technological constraints get lifted yeah and we advanced blockchain performance capability, everything what will then become possible when you can unfurl things online on chain and that we're going to see a lot like the thing that you're frustrated by, which is a third generic aesthetic, and we're going to see a lot more expressivity at that point.

I mean, one of the general projects that I really, really love, that I think falls under your category as well of finding IT is terrible. Ms, my math, costas, I mean, I think that is a project which which really does all of those things. And IT plays with history as well, because this this esty component, IT plays this complexity because of this terrorist went also this notion that you have this kind of metaverse of terraform that you can kind of invert and participate in on different levels, like all that, I think like, again, in the medium of general of odd to something like beyond just an output of an arrow.

So last question for you. Yeah, a little recon theme, especially with own history. Just come full circle where we started, where we're been talking. So you have kind of travelled .

the legacy to digital .

art world yeah what are some of the things if you were to tell people on the legacy side yeah about the digital side, digital world in legacy, the person who of those.

I think about you a lot, because I do exactly that, and I value those communities as much as each other. I think really compelling place, place to be and to care about culture, and to make things, and to learn about things into collect things. So I would say speaking to a legacy person about the digital world, I would say take the time to get to know somebody who's passionate about what is going on there and don't start with the new times.

so. Don't just look at what you see first and come with your prizes and basis, embrace the learning curve. That is the exciting moment of getting to know somebody y's passion, why I think this project is interesting .

and that project is boring. The chain that same.

Well, one of the chAllenges i've always had with addressing the legacy art world with cyp to the chain is that people in the legacy world hear the word cyp to hear the world block chain and think a to complex. I'm not part of that community. I don't understand the technology.

Therefore, it's too much work to engage. And two, they also have a wife of kind of a scandal around IT or a window to a lot of our world people that's really like a red flag footles shit, don't know. So I would also say this is like a little community that has its own.

Yes, there's a kind of a learning curve to understanding IT, but honestly, in the art world is always a bit of a learning curve. You have to study out for several years to kind of really get into histories of the egon, whatever. And that's a rewarding process. People stay there because the'd love that I D love to get into those complicated disposes of this is so there's actually a lot of rewards. So legacy our people, if they would kind of take the jump.

And then what would you see on the flip side for both the digital artists understand the legacy world and then specifically hycy pta?

yes. So digital underly the legacy world, I think there's a lot more continuity than they might imagine, right? I think often around these worlds, the notion of new things has a high premium.

And I think understanding histories that actually have played into those is kind of undervalued. So I would say to those people, and I actually often do this, oh, you're really interested in this artist that made this kind of digital. Here's this legacy person who who you truly never heard of, who did something like .

solo or whatever that resonate with exactly that gest by it's more understand some of the previous movements because I might inform.

inspire you yeah so so have to like watch my tongue but the situation is more like you'd love this. You'll also love this lesters of interest.

exactly.

It's like an amazon recommendation, something like that. And that's about sharing passion.

Again, that's a beautiful thing. And then the crypt specific side, what would you say to that group? Digital thinking about the legacy art work?

Well, I would do a more new on version of the same thing I say you're interested in the history of network dot works by from a particular asset form. This is this an amazing group of people that were making things for cable networks in the nineties? Ah, isn't that incredible look at this porter pg out that this was created around this. And again, it's about encouraging and getting the kind of infectiousness of the love that comes at the course projects.

So I think that's a beautiful note to end on, Simon. Yes, this is a fun conversation and i'm so excited to see more of your work.

The next thing i'm doing is building a big project about space. I'm looking at the kind of space networks and the way that people are imagining about building an outer space, building an augmented reality work that is based on a sculpture of a mega structure that will hang in the oakland art gallery. And new zealand will hopefully vel in the future as well. And that is actually based on the work of .

a company as well. I love IT because it's going all the way from the outer world's the interworld .

like the world exactly technological paradise, ability, types.

culture and it's like a totally different kind of world buildings. Thank you so much for joining this episode of yeah well.

there is A X and z. Thank you very much. I've long time listen the first time color I yeah yeah. Thank you. Yes, thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to web three with days six and z. You can find show notes with links to resources, books or papers discussed transrapid and Moore at asic ency clipt to dot com. This episode was produced and edited by sono toxic.

That's me. The episode was technically edited by our audio edit Justin golden, also to moonshot design for the r and all thanks to support from a sec ency crypt u. To follow more of our work and get updates resources from us and from others, be sure to subscribe to our web three weekly newsletter.

You can find IT on our website at a six ency clipt or dot com. Thank you for listening and for subscribing. Let's go.