Travel Wisdom from the World’s Most Traveled Man (Harry Mitsidis)
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I love seeking out new travel experiences and places to go. And if you do as well, then you will love this conversation. And then before I knew it, I had 150 countries visited. And then I suppose it was, why don't we do them all?

Hello, I'm Chris Hutchins, and this is All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel. Today, I'm talking to the world's most traveled man, Harry Mitsidis, who is one of only three people to have visited every country in the world twice. You've visited a lot of places people call dangerous.

I was once arrested in Yemen. I was in Ukraine just a few weeks ago. And to be very honest, I'm going to the States and I'm scared of going to Walmart. I'm dead serious. That may be just as dangerous, if not more dangerous than going to Mogadishu. You've seen a lot of benefits from traveling the world. There's nothing quite like travel to put you out of your comfort zone. If we stay in

in the communities where we grow up, I think we may never really know who we are. People often ask me which of all the countries should they go to? And I always say, because there's no other country like it. But if there's one paradise in the world, I would say it's... Okay, I'm excited. Let's get started right after this.

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Harry, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so I guess I want to go back to the beginning and understand how did your, I don't know if obsession's the right word, but love of travel begin?

Well, it's a sweet obsession, but I guess it starts with the fact that I have parents from different countries. My father's Greek, my mother's English. I grew up in Greece speaking English. I think when you're exposed to that from a very young age, you realize that there's a big world out there. And I've always been a bit of a geography geek.

I loved looking at maps and I loved studying aviation timetables. And I never really thought I would go to all these places. But gradually I thought, OK, let me try to do the whole of, say, Europe.

And when I had done the whole of Europe, which is quite contained and has about 45 countries and it's relatively doable without a very high budget, then I'm like, well, there's more than just Europe. Let's try going here and there. And then before I knew it, I had...

150 countries visited and then I suppose it was, why don't we do them all? And then once you get into it, you can't stop. I think that's a common thing that people are excited about wanting to see more countries. I know I've kind of tracked my list, but not everyone has the time. How have you managed to find all of the time and maybe there's some misconceptions here, but the cost to be able to do all of this travel?

Yeah, well, indeed, time and cost are probably the two main parameters here. The third one is the will. Now, many people have the will, but they don't have the time or the funds. Well, in terms of time, I worked for a long time in education as a lecturer in colleges. I used to teach

management, leadership, things like that. But the good thing of that is that you get a nice chunk of holidays, at least in Europe you do. So that took care of the time. And of course I would optimize my travels in order to try to put different destinations together and get as much as possible out of a trip.

Cost wise, well, I mean, when I did this when I was younger, I would really be quite budget conscious. I would get the cheapest flight, stay at the cheapest places. I took advantage of things like couch surfing when they were very young and people had barely heard of that.

So, I mean, that was one way of keeping the budget relatively normal. But I'm not going to lie. I mean, some destinations are, by definition, expensive. You can't go to Nauru without spending quite a lot of money on the flight, let alone the visa and the hotel, because there's basically only one. So it's going to be expensive. So, yeah, the cost is something that I was always aware of.

And I tried my best to optimize things and maybe sacrifice other things. As you were going through this adventure, I think you hit the world or at least all the countries by 36%.

Were there ones that were particularly challenging to check off at the end? There were, yeah. I think I always say I've been particularly lucky in the sense that I sort of navigated through wars, global crises, and managed to get the difficult countries in when they were not too dangerous and not impossible to do. I didn't have particularly...

hard time getting visas either. But at the end with Equatorial Guinea, which was my last one, at the time there were 192 countries. So you've reached 191, there's one left and there's no way to do it. I was totally desperate. But when I reached that point, there's this adage, if you have a problem, tell everyone about it.

every single person. And so what I did is I would wake up and I would live and breathe Equatorial Guinea. I would write to random people I hadn't heard of for a long time and just say, you don't by any chance have any connection to Equatorial Guinea, do you? This strategy worked. I

A friend of a friend of my mother's had business dealings with Equatorial Guinea, and I got the visa thanks to this stranger who was happy to help me. And that's how I completed the last country, which was by far the hardest. For people who don't know, which includes me, Equatorial Guinea, not a country I heard a lot of people talk about. So is there a reason why Equatorial Guinea is so difficult?

Well, it's no longer that difficult now. It's still relatively difficult. What happens with the Cotuglio Guinea, it's been ruled by the same man for, I think it's almost 50 years now. And at one point there was this coup attempt.

And since then, they became very picky about who they'd allow into the country. So it's been a notoriously difficult visa, even though the country's tiny. But yeah, it's one of the hard ones for everyone in the travel community. North Korea, for the record...

I know it's impossible now to go to for Americans, but for everyone else, it's not that hard. You just pay and you go. I mean, unless you're a journalist or have, you know, extensive social media against North Korea, they'll be happy to have you. Yeah, you're probably getting a curated trip of only what they want to see and not much latitude to do what you want. But I do know a few people have been on tours of North Korea.

Well, that's the only way to do it. You can have your own tour in theory. It'll be a bit expensive, but if you want to, you can go on your own, but you're still going to have two minders. And yes, obviously they're going to take you where they want. It's not going to be a trip where you can go for leisurely walks in the evening or something. You will be stopped. And one of the things you said earlier that made me want to share...

You mentioned travel doesn't have to be expensive, especially when you were younger. We traveled for seven months for about $7,000 back a few years out of college. And so another important point is the slower you travel, sometimes the less it costs. I know you're a fan of slower travel, really getting into a place, which actually led you to kind of within Nomad Mania, create a list of countries that was not just countries, but regions, helping people realize that

Because you got out of the airport in Frankfurt, maybe you haven't actually seen Germany. Listening to this as an American, think, wow, if someone wants to check America off the list, well, they could just go to New York and they've seen America. And actually, it's a lot more than that. So can you talk a little bit about the process you got to actually create a different list of places to visit than what is more standard, just a list of countries?

Well, you know, counting countries is now a thing, and there's a lot of travelers out there who are aiming to visit every country. But in my perspective, this is really not enough, because indeed, if you just land somewhere and see the capital, say, have you really experienced the country? When I tell people I live in England...

They're like, oh, London, yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute, I don't live in London. Somehow people, the minute you say England, they immediately think you live next to the Big Ben or something. So I think that's a very good starting point. There's a lot more to countries, whether they're big or they're small, but especially the big ones than the capital or the major cities, say. So in Nomad Mania, the initial idea was to divide the world

in a rational way, where you get the most out of a country. And you can really judge who has seen stuff rather than who has just ticked places off or countries off. And that's why we've got a list of 1,301 regions and compare that to 193 countries. So it's about six times or seven times the number of actual countries because we believe in dividing the world equally.

in that way. And in terms of slow travel, we recently launched a list where we look at how long someone has spent in a place and that way they kind of get rewarded for being slow. First of all, by being a slow traveler, you understand the country so much better. Your chances of meeting locals or even learning a little bit of the language increase. So I think when I was younger, I was in a hurry, but

One of the joys of getting older is learning to take life a little bit slower. And now I think I'm embracing this idea of traveling slower, not because of the cost so much, but more because of the joys of it. In preparation of this, I thought, oh, I'll go through and check off my travels. I know of the essential regions, I feel like I've done well. But of the broad regions, I think I'm way far behind. And in a way...

I appreciated the fact that it created a number almost so big that it's more about inspiring me to try new places than to try and complete the world, if you will. It looks like I'm at 169 and a lot more to go. So that was a bit of a humbling experience in a good way and kind of reminded me that there are certain countries where maybe I haven't actually seen a lot of the country, even though I've been to the country a few times.

You can spend a week somewhere and you still don't hit it. Even just filling out the process inspired me to maybe push the way we travel a little bit differently. I do think that seven days may be enough for a country like Liechtenstein or maybe some of the Caribbean islands. But I mean, if you look at, say, China or the U.S., seven days, really, is that enough to say you can grasp the U.S.? I mean, the U.S. is so different.

There is a lot of homogeneity in terms of some things. Every city has its McDonald's as you drive in. But, you know, the regions of the states are so fascinatingly different. And I don't think I know them well at all.

I'm in fact planning on a long trip to the States early next year. So I think seven days is really not a number where you can be proud of yourself for some countries, especially the bigger ones. And it looks like you still have, by my count, is it 17 regions left? Yes. On the main list, I have 17 left. Yeah. Do you see it as a goal to check them off, especially because you kind of helped coin them? Or how do you view this last 17? And what's holding you back?

Well, you know what? I think now that I'm almost at the end, I've kind of run out of steam. And I think if I do, it'll be like, oh, now what? What other lists can I concoct? I'm happy to have a few there.

A few of the 17 are really easy. I've got a couple of regions in Peru, which if I wanted to, I could just do any time. It's not that they're particularly challenging. Some of the others are really hard, objectively, to get to. One of them is Gaza, which is now in the news.

And I'm quite sure nobody's going to be visiting that area for the foreseeable future. So I don't really see it as a goal in itself. I see it more as an inspiration. I think the idea here is to try to do the best you can for yourself. It's not about competing with other people or other travelers. It's making sure that

You have those regions out there. Each region has its page with what you can see, what you can do, and they can be a way for you to plan travels and to think of, oh, yeah, why don't I go and do this and this in Peru, say, rather than just the capital? It gives ideas for more travel. I think eventually, maybe by the time I'm 70, I will finish the list if I can, but that means...

I still have another 19 years to go. So one region a year, maybe on average. For anyone listening who feels maybe a little overwhelmed, let's talk a little bit about the benefits of travel. You've seen through your community, through your own travels, through the people you've met. I would imagine quite a lot of benefits that people accrue from putting themselves in new experiences and traveling the world.

How would you describe that benefit? Well, I think the best thing about travel is that you learn very much about yourself, first of all. I think there's nothing quite like travel to put you out of your comfort zone in situations where you wouldn't normally find yourself. And then you realize how you react to them, what kind of behaviors you have, which you might have never known because you never needed them.

to deal with certain situations. So I think the benefit of travel first and foremost is learning who you are. Because if we stay in the communities where we grow up, and if we never really explore further, I think we may never really know who we are. Often we may be conditioned by other people or, you know, we may aim to please the community to be who they expect us to be.

I think in travel, and especially if you're traveling alone and independently, you learn a lot about yourself. The other benefit for me has been an increase in my optimism. I think by nature, I'm a little bit of a pessimist about the world, but I've had such great experiences when traveling, and I have almost never had negative ones in terms of locals, mean-spirited behavior, theft, etc.

I've very rarely, if ever, had problems. On the contrary, I've only been exposed to kindness, selflessness, people being very curious about me in a healthy way, helpful people. So I think this has helped me be more optimistic about the planet and the people on the planet.

I genuinely now believe that human beings are not really that bad after all, even though sometimes when you live in a huge metropolis, you might forget that. And then, of course, the obvious one is that, you know, you experience so many different things, so many changes in scenery and weather that you by nature become adaptable. And also you're never really bored because there's never really anything to be bored about with all these constant changes.

Yeah. As you were talking about part of that, it made me think I had a conversation with someone who recently traveled and lived abroad for a year with his children. And when he came back, his children all realized that they wanted new friends. They

They were like, oh, we discovered ourselves and the things we care about. And we're exposed to so much that we just have this new perspective on the world. And it kind of changed them. And he said, I'd always been able to feel something about travel, but couldn't articulate it. And he's like, but when I saw it being experienced by my children, I could really like viscerally see the difference of the way their perspective on the world changed. And it was really cool. So I am excited. I think our kids at one and three are probably a little too young to see that.

perspective shift, but it's still something we strive to do a little bit of now and are excited about doing a lot in the future. Yeah. Well, good luck with that. I'm sure they're going to love it. There is a downside with that. And the downside is exactly that when you come back

you often don't feel you belong anymore. You know, you kind of can't really relate because you've experienced something so radically different. I find with many of my friends from Greece where I grew up, you know, we're still friends because of old times sake, but

But we don't really have that much in common anymore. We just have totally different perspectives on life and on everything. Whatever you do in life, there's always going to be a little bit of a downside. So I don't see it as negative necessarily. That's possibly the price you have to pay.

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And as an All the Hacks listener, you can skip the wait list and get started today. Just head to allthehacks.com slash GELT, G-E-L-T. Again, that's allthehacks.com slash G-E-L-T. You mentioned solo travel. Are all your travels by yourself, friends, family, partner, anyone like that ever?

When I was doing all the countries, I traveled exclusively solo. I enjoyed it that way. And also I'm an only child. So I think we only children, we have a particular way of enjoying our own company. It's not something strange for us. I think people who have siblings don't always understand this. So for me, that was fine.

sort of the last decade or so, partially because of Nomad Mania, I have branched out into group trips, occasionally organizing trips with other Nomad Manians, especially to really obscure places or if the trips are really expensive in order to share the costs.

So gradually I've discovered the joys of traveling with other people. Recently, just about a month ago, I was in Mauritania with a small group of eight people. We did the Iron Ore train, which is kind of a bit of a classic now in the community where you spend the night on top of iron ore, literally. And that is a really unique experience of travel because you get onto the train during daylight and it's quite hot because it's the desert.

But then at night, it becomes really cold. And during the 18 hours of the trip, you need to adapt to all these temperature changes and landscape changes. And that is best experienced in a group. There are trips like that, or North Korea for that matter, where having a group is very grounding because everything around you is so bizarre. So at least you can experience it. And then it's a bonding experience for the rest of your lives. You're like, oh, we did North Korea together. So yeah.

Yeah. Lately, I have done more trips in groups, but I think deep down, I still am a solo traveler. And when you say bizarre for anyone who's unfamiliar with North Korea, can you describe a little bit of what that means?

Well, people often ask me which country should they visit or, you know, which of all the countries should they go to? And I always say North Korea because there's no other country like it. It's really like being on another planet. Well, first of all, you can't have a mobile phone. You're not really connected to the outside world at all. So it's like going into this

bizarre place which is not connected with the outside, which is still living in the 1950s. And the whole rhetoric is about

the 1950s and the Korean War. And then you're always surrounded by these minders who take you around. And it's just endless propaganda about the 1950s. It's very hard to explain it. It's just weird. I think you only realize how weird it is when you leave North Korea. What happened the first time I went, when we left and we were on the train coming back into China, and everyone on the group

was looking at China and there were neon lights and, you know, advertisements and ordinary things. And we were looking at these as if we had never seen them before. We were like, oh, neon lights. What is this? It takes five days of North Korea to get into this warped sense of reality where everything else is suddenly not really known to you anymore. It's really strange. So if anyone can go, they should.

And I wouldn't say it's dangerous, but it's just out of this world. You've talked about a lot of dangerous destinations in other circles. You've visited a lot of places people call dangerous, Somalia, Libya. I'd maybe put Syria on that list, except I've also been there. So I at least have my own experiences. How do you think about opening people's minds up to some of those places? And what would you tell people that they have to benefit from considering them? How much danger is there really?

Well, first of all, I don't think anyone should force themselves to do something that they feel is uncomfortable. If they don't want to do it, they shouldn't be doing it. But I think if people...

do want to do it, but at the same time are thinking of the dangers, they should ask people who've been. That's probably the best advice, you know, and people who've been recently because the situations often change there. I think they can be the best source of up-to-date information, what the reality really is on the ground. I have never really been to a place where I felt I was in danger.

at a particular time. But I think in many cases, the danger is just to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. And to be very honest, I'm going to be doing this trip to the States and I'm beginning to be scared of going to a random Walmart somewhere. I'm like, well, is that dangerous? I'm dead serious. You know, I think...

That may be just as dangerous, if not more dangerous than going to Mogadishu in a very different way. But if you're at the wrong place at the wrong time, then danger can stalk you.

I don't think most of the world is dangerous unless it is an active war zone, of course, in which case you just don't go. I would never go to a place where there are hostilities. Having said that, I was in Ukraine just a few weeks ago, but not at the front, obviously. I was in parts of the countries which are quote-unquote safe.

You've alluded to the fact that you haven't seen many real world dangerous situations, but I'll push you only because the first email we had mentioned that there might be some. What would you classify as kind of a dangerous situation you have been in? Well, I was once arrested in Yemen and the people doing the arresting were the police, the sort of

good guy. So I guess that meant that I was quote unquote safe, maybe. But that situation was dangerous in the sense that you never really know what their intentions are. Do they want a bribe or do they want to really mess you up? And you never really know the context because I don't speak Arabic, of course. So that was, I would say, a dangerous situation where

with possibly different handling or had it been different people, I could have got into a lot of trouble. I don't think I would have died, but, you know, I could have ended up with a serious jail term or anything really. They could have planted drugs into my bag if they wanted to and then accused me of something. You never really know. But again, my faith in people overall being okay was proved even in that situation.

And what advice would you give to someone in those situations? Like, what were you telling yourself in that moment? Well, I was trying to be calm. I think in general, if you're faced with a dangerous situation, losing it is not going to help you. You've got to try to be as calm and contained as possible. I think the best thing is to take it very matter of fact, like, okay, this is happening now.

Let me see how I can deal with it in as rational a way as possible. Now, of course, if the situation is rapidly unfolding, like you're in the middle of gunfire or something, there may not be much time to process that rationally. But I do think that panicking is definitely a no-no. And I also think that becoming aggressive is...

is also a really bad idea. It's best to be as humble as possible, as likable as possible, given the situation, and then try to think rationally of the options you've got.

Of course, every situation is different. So, you know, there isn't really a blueprint how to deal with danger. I think being calm and in general taking things in your stride is something that you learn as a traveler. And that is something that can then serve you when you are in a difficult situation.

Do you do anything to prepare for these? So let's say you were planning on going to Ukraine, which you said you recently did, or I know you've been to Afghanistan, Somalia. Are you planning things in advance, whether it's hiring a local fixer or someone to help you out? Or how do you think about planning those things so they do go smoothly?

When I go on a trip in general, I don't plan too much and I don't really read a lot. But this is in general. And then there's what I call the crisis or the dangerous zones. And for those, I do have my own experience.

exceptional measures. So I will read more. I will definitely try to get up-to-date relevant information so that I know if it's really wise or not to go there. Sometimes that's not always easy to get, but I'll double check information. There's usually other people who've been, and thanks to Nomadmania, we know these peoples.

So this is something that helps me as well. And then, yes, in certain countries, I would not travel without a fixer, even though I know people who do. But for example, in Afghanistan, when I went the first time, I really did go entirely alone. I was 30 and probably a little bit more of a daredevil back then. But the last time I went, it was a much more structured, much more well-organized trip.

Also because I was going to more dangerous parts of Afghanistan. So there I did have a fixer who came very recommended. And so I knew I was in good hands in general. And I think usually trips are okay. We in general haven't heard of situations where people got into a lot of trouble when they were going somewhere.

in an organized way with a reliable fixer. So that means, you know, if you use your common sense and do a bit of homework, you'll probably be okay. And when you say a reliable fixer, how do you even go about, if someone's listening to this thinking, oh, I want to go somewhere, how would you even find that person? Well, on Nomad Mania, we do have a fixer section.

And we rely on individuals sending information about that. So we have travelers who recommend these fixes and either give a good mark or a bad mark. We do have some people say, stay away from this guy. But if someone is getting repeatedly good reviews, then yeah, this is something we know about. There's also a page on Facebook, which is called Every Passport Stamp.

And this is for sort of aficionados of country collecting, if you want to call it like that. And a lot of information is exchanged there. So that's a valuable resource for up-to-date information, especially regarding dangerous places. One of the negative things of the community is that inevitably a lot of the discussion is about these places.

unusual, dangerous places. And, you know, no one ever talks about Sweden or, I don't know, Costa Rica, places which are easy to go to and pleasant. And I think that's a shame because, okay, Syria is fabulous, but, you know, it's definitely not the only country in the world. And I certainly think people focus too much on that. I was going to save this for later, but it just came up. So are there a few kind of underappreciated places that...

that you want to make a plug for other than Sweden? Yes, I think there are countries which don't get enough attention, and I don't know why. Maybe they don't market themselves well. I think Romania is a hidden gem. I think it's got wonderful natural beauty and some real gems of towns with beautiful colonial centers. And people don't generally consider Romania a tourist destination. I think that's a mistake.

Then I would personally say a country like Laos is fabulous. So everyone goes to Thailand because of the beaches and they love it. And then if you're a landlocked country, you will never be much of a tourist mecca. But Laos is sort of really authentic in every way that Thailand isn't. I just really believe it's underappreciated.

I also love Tuvalu. It's one of my favorites. I don't know how many of the listeners will have ever heard of it. It's one of the smallest countries in the world. It's only got about 10,000 population and it's a two-hour flight from Fiji. And the plane goes twice a week from Fiji. It is an independent country. And then when the plane leaves, the runway becomes a football field or general court for all sports.

It's a delightful place. It's one of the more expensive ones to get to because the flight is the lifeline and they can charge whatever they want for it. But if there's one

paradise in the world, I would say it's Tuvalu for me. And it's one of these countries that may not exist for long because of global warming, because I think the highest point of Tuvalu is something like four or eight meters above sea level. So it go while it exists before it disappear. I'm curious, you know, you did say you don't do a lot of

planning. But, you know, think back to some of those first visits when you didn't know that country or you didn't know anyone there. What was your first 24 hours like to kind of get into that point that you could feel like a local? Interesting question. Well, look, I'm a born introvert. I am not particularly communicative by nature. And back in the day, I would be very afraid that there was a lot of trepidation arriving into a new country. And I think

My first ask was always to figure out how safe am I really? What vibe do I get from what is going on around me? I think because I studied sociology and I've always been quite perceptive about people, within a few hours of being somewhere, I would get a general impression like I can walk around at night on my own or I shouldn't.

carry money with me because it looks like it may be dodgy or things like that. And then accordingly, I would adapt my style. Often I remember I would roll my money into a sort of little pack which used to contain sweets and I'd roll it in and have it in a

in place of a wallet so that I wouldn't have a wallet with me at all. That was one of my tricks back then. I have since become much more confident, though. So now I no longer prepare at all. And I no longer have that feeling of trepidation that I used to have. So I think this is what is liberating when you travel a lot. And so you said you can kind of become a local quickly when you hit the ground.

Are you going straight to a market? Are you trying to sit in a cafe? How do you engage with people and spark those conversations and where do you find them? Usually I'm going to eat my favorite food. So in most countries in the world, not all, I have my local favorites. Often you cannot really get them in other countries or if you can, it's not going to be as good. So I'm

In the Netherlands, for example, the first thing I'm going to do, I'm going to go to the supermarket and I'm going to buy flat.

Fla is this custardy dessert and it only exists in Holland, maybe in Belgium, but you're not going to find it anywhere else and you can't take it with you because it needs a fridge. So Holland, it's like always Fla. Turkey, where I am now recording this, I'm going to land and I'm going to go straight to a kebab place and I'm going to have my Iskender kebab, which is yogurt with meat. It's

You know, so I'm almost conditioned to find my local treats. I'm a big foodie. So that is the first thing I'll do. Usually in terms of locals, just by going to a local eatery, you're going to find some conversation, especially in countries outside.

outside Europe or the Western world. In Europe, this is more of a problem. People, I think, are more accustomed to keeping to themselves, and it's not always easy to find spontaneous conversations. In the States...

that works for me because people are very friendly. And then when they hear my accent, there's always a bit of a talk about, oh, you're from England or something like that. And that way I always end up talking to people in the States. But in Europe, this doesn't happen so much. But nowadays in Europe, I have so many friends in the places I visit. Usually I'm traveling to a friend or staying with a friend. So that works there. So at the end of the day,

There's always chances to socialize, whether I do know people there beforehand or I don't.

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And I'm going to ask you to keep going down on that list of food a little bit, maybe because I skipped breakfast, but also because when I traveled, my wife sometimes and I try to fit four meals in a day because food's such an exciting thing. Are there places that, you know, if you were told there were only a dozen places you could go to eat your final meals, what would be on that list? Oh, gosh, you're going to hate me for this.

In the States, the first place I go to is Red Lobster. I know that's really a weird one, but that's my favorite in the States. In Brazil, it's always feijoada, which is the national dish, but it's fabulous. It's this meat with beans, comes with a lot of added things which you yourself add into this mix.

How would you go about finding the right place for that? In America, finding a red lobster is easy, but I imagine in a place where there's millions of places you can get these dishes, how would you go about finding the right place for that?

How would you pick one or do you not care? Well, in Turkey, the chances of getting bad food are very small. Literally everywhere is great. Well, almost, but I would usually just risk it. I prefer that to Googling things. I will Google the nearest red lobster though. But I tend to just...

go with the flow. I don't like planning too much, asking in advance too much. I think the beauty of travel is about being spontaneous. And so if you end up going somewhere and the food is not good, does it really matter? It'll be good tomorrow. At the end of the day, it's about

taking it easy and not really expecting too much. Sometimes you may be disappointed, but you shouldn't even think of it that way. We've talked about both in food and you listed a couple destinations, but I feel like we maybe did a disservice to some of what you've proposed with Nomad Mania on all of the regions.

So I'm curious, are there places where you think the country is already fantastic? People might know that, but there's a region that is underappreciated, that it's not just the country. It could be a country that lots of travelers go to, but they're all missing this gem that you know about it. And the fact that you've created a list of regions instead of just countries is

kind of highlights? Are there underappreciated regions in actually appreciated countries that you'd want to highlight? Absolutely. Yes, there really are. I recently visited Canada in the summer and I deliberately spent time in places I knew less. So I saw Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.

And those are, I would say, probably off the beaten track, unless you're Canadian. And those are lovely provinces. Nova Scotia is extremely historical. It's got a lot of worthwhile sites, both related to fishing, you know, and they've got a lot of culture with that, but...

Also, they've got a few incredible World Heritage sites relating to the history of Canada and how immigration happened and the French speakers versus the English speakers and all that history. Some really lovely small villages there.

So I had such a great time and I didn't expect to be honest. So I think the message here is that you can be surprised even when you travel a lot. In places like Brazil, people usually head to Rio, Sao Paulo, maybe they go to Salvador, which has become a bit popular. But for example, I really like the southernmost province a lot, Rio Grande do Sul.

and the main town there is Porto Alegre. The culture there is something between Brazilian and Argentinian. It's called gaucho, a bit like the wild west of Brazil, much more of a western kind of attitude. And that is a great province. And again, I don't think people...

who visit Brazil would necessarily consider that as an area to go to. So that is certainly one. Then if we go further south to Argentina, again, people will usually go to Buenos Aires and maybe they'll travel all the way south to see the glaciers and Ushuaia, which is the southernmost major town, but they'll be missing on areas further north

Buenos Aires. You have places like Salta, and that is an extremely interesting colonial city, a lot to see and do. Also Cordoba, extremely interesting. It's the second biggest town of Argentina, but surprisingly little tourism. So I think these are just examples of places where many regions are underappreciated, haven't quite made the

the main tourist sites. Even with places like France, I recently visited La Rochelle, which is on the Atlantic coast. And that area of France, I would say, is generally undervisited. You have Poitiers, a fantastic town, great architecture, cobblestone roads, authentically French. But

But I don't know how many people would really opt to go to that sort of central belt toward the Atlantic. People would probably go to Paris or maybe Nice, you know, those areas. So definitely, I think for people who've already traveled, there are a lot of opportunities to go further and to see so much more. It's just a matter of wanting to. I've talked to someone the other day who said their favorite trip to every country is their second trip.

because it forces them to skip all the main stuff. Now we've been to Paris enough times that we're not going to see any tourist destinations. If we're in Paris, we get to just go do anything. And the same is true in Tokyo. Yeah, well, I feel now when I revisit places, it's almost like visiting an old friend.

Often I remember this first visit and I remember myself then. And especially if there's been a long time frame since the first visit, you know, it's like going back to the me back then. And I always end up thinking, oh, I was so young. I was so inexperienced. What did I know back then?

And look at me now. It's true. I was in Paris relatively recently, and I found myself so much more relaxed now, really just enjoying the vibe rather than feeling I've got to go there and I've got to see that. So I do think for sure that second, third, fourth visit happens.

have a certain value and you can probably understand more about a place than the first time when you're a total newbie and you're struggling to see the sites rather than to perhaps experience the place as a whole.

Now that you have this optimism that you say you've discovered through travel, are there places that disappointed you? There were, but usually not because of the people, but mainly because I had, for example, very high expectations initially because of other people and what I had heard. And then my own experience didn't quite match theirs.

that. But I think there the fault is not the place itself, but more the preconceived ideas I might have had based on some high expectations. For example, that happened with me in Bhutan,

which many people rate extremely highly as a sort of Himalayan paradise, very pristine, very authentic. And my experience there, the first time I went was a total disappointment. I thought,

why am I here in this overpriced place? I didn't feel that much was authentic. I felt it was way too structured. So I was disappointed and it was because of the expectations. Now, the second time I went, when I went to the eastern part of Bhutan, the place redeemed itself because it

Having had the first disappointment, the second time I wasn't expecting much, I thought, oh, well, I'm going to go to Bhutan again. But, you know, I'm not expecting anything. And then that eastern part of the country was indeed much more authentic, off the beaten track, really friendly locals. So I was then happier again. Yeah, I mean, I guess it goes back to your advice of the lower you think about it in advance, the more everything can surprise you and not let you down. And

I share your opinion about people. I can't think of very many places, if any, in the world where people aren't nice, kind, and friendly and excited to meet you, talk to you, and tell you about their country. And if you just ask them, what's fantastic about Brazil or anywhere, and just be quiet, they'll just go on and on and on. So it's been a joy to be able to travel some. And I'm now excited to be able to see that same joy through our kids' lens.

which is something I've talked about with other people and gives a whole new experience. That's the one thing I've never done, but I can imagine that everything somehow becomes so much more fun and probably things that you as an adult wouldn't notice or wouldn't be surprised by are pointed out. We've touched on so many different things. Any parting advice for people as they think about planning their next trip or immersing themselves in wherever they're going?

Well, one thing I urge people to remind themselves is that when you're a traveler, you're not going to a place just to take things from the place. You are going and you're going to give things to the place. Your presence there and you in a way represent your country, your place of origin. So I urge people, first of all, to look up.

the history of their own town, think how they would answer questions such as

what makes your town interesting or what is there in your town that I would enjoy. And remember that in a way you are an ambassador of your country and your place of origin. And always remember that, especially when things get rough or if you're disappointed or something doesn't go up to plan, remember that you are not only taking from the place you're visiting, you're there to give back.

And what you should be giving is good energy, positivity, and as much happiness as possible, because the world is a difficult place. So if we can help make it a little bit better, and especially when we're traveling, then we should be.

This has been fantastic. I now want to go plan all kinds of travels. So where can people stay on top of all of your travels and everything you're up to? Sign up to nomadmania.com. Fill in your profile. We have a weekly newsletter. And through that, we communicate with our travelers. So you'll get all the news of Nomadmania.

In terms of my personal travels, I am, as I said, an introvert. So I don't really advertise much. I do have an Instagram profile. It's Harry Nomad. So that's 10 letters, Harry Nomad.

But I don't really update it. I'm definitely not a blogger or anything like that. I'll just, you know, put up a photo once in a while. So I'm not one of these people who's necessarily out there. But because of that, I've tried to create a community for people to belong into. You know, do register if you like what you see and be part of who we are.

Awesome. Well, I'm there. If anyone registers, you'll see me as well. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Chris. Such a great episode. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed it. And if you did, please consider clicking that follow or subscribe button if you haven't already. It really helps us out. And there's no better way to support us than doing that or sharing the show with a friend, colleague, or family member, or even a random stranger is totally appreciated.

Also, links to everything in this and all other episodes are at allthehacks.com, where you can also find all the deals we find, as well as links to the top credit card bonuses. Finally, if you have any feedback, want to get in touch, or share a question you have for a future Mailbag episode, you can email me at podcast at allthehacks.com. That's it for this week. I'll see you next week.