The best interview I've ever done about Founders
01:21:05 Share

So this is not a typical founders episode, but IT is the best interview that I have ever done on founders. This episode of investing the best came out a year ago. IT is a great summary of what i've learned from the first six years of making founders podcast, Patrick.

I recorded a part two, which covered some of the lessons that i've ve learned in the last year that should be out in a week or two. So make sure that you're following investing the best in your favor pocket sprayer, so you don't miss that. But I also wanted to post this episode for you, so I can tell you about the live show that Patrick are doing in new york city on october nineteenth.

Patricks interviewed over three hundred of the world's best investors and founders on his podcast. I've obviously read three hundred plus biography of histories, greatest treats for mine. So we're going to be talking about what we've learned from seven years of podcasting, sharing our favorite ideas and stories and then doing alive.

Q and a, if you live in new york, I think it's a no brainer. And if you don't, I think it's a great excuse to fly and visit new york city. The link to get tickets is down below and available a founder broadcasters com. And I hope to see you in new york. David, I think you have .

one of the most interesting hobbies turned professions of anyone. I know. I first upon your show, I think because, like five friends, I once told me to listen to the episodes on Edward N.

S. A. laughter. Those are my gateway drugs into your way of looking at history.

I'd love to begin to introduce to the audience or just outlining what you do. It's quite unusual. You've done a lot of IT. Maybe you could just begin all the way back to when you first remember falling in love with reading.

Let's start there. I've been a lot with reading longer than I even have a memory a few years ago, and my mother died of breast cancer a Young age. And as he was dying because my parents like a demote at the begin of my life, she's really the only one that has any kind of recollection of powers as a child.

So unfortunately, when he died, all those memories died with her. He said, the way you are now, you are from the time that you could talk, she's like you would read anything you can get your hands on, even if we didn't have books in the house. You read the back of seal boxes, SHE says somewhere she's like, we didn't have a lot of money.

But what I would do is take you to the bookstore and god bless s bookstore, where even to the state, you can go in there. And even if you don't buy anything, you just sit on the floor and you can read. And that's like one of my only memories from childhood, her taking me the book store and just letting me read.

And even before I read, one of my favorite ooks, when I was really Young, was wear swallow this like you're reading, I just say they're try to find the guy of the strike hat. So it's just the only hobby that have had my entire life. There's a ton of hobby that I picked up, ton of interest in sports, all the kind of things we all get really intense to do, a for long time.

And then drop IT. I have two mode, zero or hundred readings, not like that. And I just reread because the founder visit hockey's passed away.

And what I loved about his book is he was the exact same way he grew in a tiny house on the edge, rocky mounds had no plummers, no electricity, no money. They barely had food. But he had books, his neighbors, who said, there's something wrong with that d howk boy who will read anything?

See, when I read a bargrave y like, i'm not reading part of his cash and go OK, I put myself in the story to me the great biographies like a movie for your mind. Except in set of being over for two thousand and hf hours, it's going to last like fifteen, twenty hours. We were just talking before recording that I read a thousand page biography on.

And so for a one of histories, great subsists you put yourself in that store, you're like, what is he like being a Young enzo ferri? His father passes away. Unexpected that you're eighteen years old.

Your fathers, you love more than anything, passes away. Your brother serving a war, war two gets killed. Your father's business collapses. Because if your father's death now, you're left as an eighteen roman tra supporter mother with no skills, no education, know anything. That's where the ideas.

And in when you study so many that can have very is like, oh, that is why the guy worked sixteen hours a day, seven days a week for sixty years and did IT until he died because of that pressure. On the great place in that book, you really think this is amazing. The big car company of the day in italy was fia.

He goes to try a job, and at the time, there's a huge good. This is after what were one. And all these veterans are looking for jobs, so they get presidents over him.

So he feels deflated. He had travelled from a small telling town thinking he's going to a job because his obsessive car racing, because he just taken the reasons at nine years old. There's just so many things that you can understand why they make the decision to do in business as you understand who they were.

What happened to him early on life, what happened was he goes to get a job, he gets rejected. He goes to a park bench in the middle. Snow in his crime is a very vivid scene in the otrar y and what is in saying is, forty years later, after a fea buys half a furry, he goes back to that bench. That authorities zed together is like, there was a missing piece of my life, a problem that I hadn't solved, the eight away from me, that caused me to have the successive drive and dedication of such of my business. And now the circle is complete, and he goes in this on an exact bench.

the idea of understanding what happened to someone before their 1， the topic of a conversation I just had of one of the partners at skua telling a story about mike Morris, r. Mike maris, very famous investor, who asks that question of just about everyone, thinking that someone's motivation tends to be rooted in their life of childhood, maybe until 4， not even a before I started into your obsession with biography, you mentioned your memories. What is that for you? If we were to zoom in on your time, three, fourteen, what's rooted in your own history that made you this complete obsessive about studying histories, great entrepreneurs and founders?

I think there's a lot of examples in these books. Sometimes you learn what to do by seeing IT done incorrectly, if I had to guess. And I don't even like thinking about the stuff both sides.

My family, they did the best I could. But like my parent to graduate high school, much of college on the first person. My family graduate high school first, first and graduate college first, male. And my family not to go to present, and three generations.

wow.

Both sides of my family, unfortunate, are filled with examples of what not to do, usually has to do with abusing shoulder. Such abuse, physical buse are banning in their kids. I had never met an intelligent person in my extended family.

My immediate family did is investing. Could my dad, so alive is of legalism. IT is what IT is as you get older, and then I have my own kids, you start taking like all of the stuff that like you're mad at them about.

Imagine if you had their parts. One person in the family, i'm thinking, I like my grandmother. My dad side is just like an evil person. And then my grandfather, my mom side, they destroy everything in their wake.

My own guess is, why was obsess with books? And so I got this, I was looking for the writing answers because, oh, I was always wrong, as I don't want to be that person. One of my favorite warn about IT said a very, his shareholder letters have read a bunch programs es on him, then went and studied all the people who talks about, and he share whole letter.

So I have like fifteen episodes. He said, hey, go, this person really smart, and i'll go and track them down and then find out who they admire. One of the best things, like one of the best things ever happened picked right heroes. I think that is extremely important.

So that is the role that books play for me is just like I don't have accesses, we don't have mentor's, I don't have anybody when you think your bag phy is you're getting to know somebody and they become mentor's and historical context. This is why Charles munger has such great device while his right times of archive, I make friends with the end of debt, because if you learn the ideas they have in the personality, behind that idea is I should have to stick. Suppose just a list pais ten good business ideas.

But if you actually understand why they did the way they did, why they think about that, why would they object that? Why did they want avoid other things? I had publishers for books reach out to me.

Some of them had been sported the pop castle, you should write a book, and as I can simplify, over four years and up to, like two hundred books, over hundred thousand pages, over ten thousand hours. If you look at what founders is right now, around four hundred hours of audio, that is about as short as I can get IT. There's no book that I know of that's four hundred hours long.

I've been married. I went my wife fifteen years and even recently she's like, i've never heard that. Sorry, for how is that possible? I've talked you every day for almost two decades.

I don't. I just try to focus on the future as much as possible. Everybody has been on resolve things in their past.

And what I really like, the best feedback have got on founders to pocket, is people find IT comforting. The vast majority people are not born in great circumstances. Ces, this is not knew at all.

It's not unique. It's the vast majority of human istory have had to be born into and survive and dive and imperfect situations. So when you hear that over over, over again and they worked away through IT found a way out, it's like huseby inspiring.

Do you remember the first time you sort of connected with someone that you are reading about through the lens of a positive role model was the one that stands out. Memory as the first in the category.

biography. I have a series of heroes, and almost all the heroes have come through the podcast in the research of p down. Usually their heroes and what they did, they got to the top of profession.

They had a lot of good ideas. They are very adorable, their wicked smart. They don't give up. They have extremely high pain tolerance. But they are all imperfect human beings. And that is kind like the cautionary tale, the overall theme of founders, where I A lot of feed back to, like i'm glad you're not ideal lizer. These people there are people everybody's imperfect to me being.

So i'll take bits and pieces from people, the only person out of every single person that I studied on the podcast that I consider like my blue print for, like I want that, I want their life and totality at door, because, you know, he is great, is how they get there. They're going to over optimize their work to the detriment of everything, their health and a cases they die earlier than they have to. They are terrible fathers.

They're terrible husband. I don't want to do that. They have no friends. They are a crazy people like I keep bring up.

And so very, somebody had greatly admire from a work perspective, or seven days week, twelve to six, six hours a day, sixty years. So he died. He was a terrible husband.

He was a good father. His son, dino, actually dies early, for my think, muscular destripes, when he was like tiny. But he had no friends, never traveled when in this town, wouldn't on airplane, wouldn't get on an elevator.

So I look at like, how can I be obsessive about work? I do want to measure is a high quality because b but not be terrible on all these other remains. If there was entrepot ally read one of the books that have read with our founders, a would be the spoke called against the odds autobiography of James lace.

James, they said, now seventy five, he just recently wrote another auto about me that way, if he's good, it's not comparable to him coming off of fourteen years of intense struggle. He's writing the book once he gets over at home at the time. Don, as one product is just the cyclone vacuum, it's in one market, is just in england, is the fastest growing back in company in history.

It's too like a couple hundred million a year. He owns one hundred percent of IT. But what makes a books so great, it's all the content, is my dad died Young, which is really sad story in there. I had to learn how to raise myself from being a eleven years old. He starts a bunch businesses, gets good over by different partners.

But from the time he ripped apart that who were vacuum and like, why does the van cleaner have bag that brakes over time? Does this make sense to the point that he has a working prototype from his own design that he knows hundred percent of is fourteen years of intense struggle, five thousand, one hundred twenty seven prototypes. So what I do is I i'm going to reread that book for every one hundred episodes.

I did IT on episode hundred. I think I did an episode twenty five, so three hundred will be that book again, four hundred with that book can, because is just the reminder, that's where most people interested when you be a ogre. Y everybody wants to know the beginning.

There is always a part of the bike phy after the super rich and famous and donating much of money, and i'm glad they are doing all that. That's fundamentally not interesting. How many people can relate to that, but everybody can relate to, hey, I have a dream.

This is what I want my life to be. Life is going to throw all these barriers. So how do I navigate that may actually get to warm going? Everybody can relate to that.

So you read new three hundred of these things. Some of you reread multiple times. I wish you could see on video, like the crazy notes and highlights you take in all these things.

It's hard to imagine there's a personal alive that is reading and studying biography and trying to piece together the lessons as intricate as you are, especially within a sub category, which is founders, not just business founders, but people that start things. And I understand that you can't compress down what you've done the body of work to much more than IT is. But I thought we could take today's conversation as opportunity to just touch on a couple of the ideas that you and I ve talked about.

As we've just discussed, the body of your work, one of them is this, I guess the word is obsession. There seems to be as a throw lines through so many of these people, some initial, others of vacuum cleaner make up for cameras or whatever. The thing is, some obsession takes root in the people that you ve studied and creates this motivation is dogging motivation to just keep going through thick. And then maybe you can just talk a little bit about that word obsession. How often you see that characteristic or the not you think it's d key characteristic in the people that you studied, ed, in terms of why they did what they did .

every single book. It's also the very high bar can think about that to make IT on to founder Spark ast. You gotten live a life so remarkable that someone want to book about IT, the tiny st of tiny subset of people, and they're all the dream people.

Could I find freaks and crazy people and miss fits and rebels pasty, which is recited to me because there's like four passions of my life, entrepreneurship, reading history in podcast. So different sets of the middle that, and for the life of me, I don't understand why so many business sectors, business books, business writing is born. You have the most fascinating subject on the planet, and then you have the most fascinating personalities.

X think about how crazy you have to be. pay. This thing doesn't exist. I wanted to exist, and i'm going to win IT into existence, and i'm willing to do everything possible to make sure this thing succeed. That is a crazy person.

That is a tiny percentage of any of the people alive and the people that have live forever like I could score through, and I was doing that earlier. One thing I do is I don't only just make the power gas, I don't just read the book once I take accessible matter pilot, and then I store all my highlights in this act called read wise. And I reread my highlights every day because I don't want to forget the lessons.

There's a limit around the stuff that you actually can remember. So I also go through my episode list, and I do that frequently. And I can't think of anybody that's not completely obsessed with what they're doing. A perfect example, this is now now is one of the crazy stories and entrepreneurship history, but is also one of the most fund books to read. It's called officiate the whale.

It's this skinny samurai, a tony munch for recent investors, I know all know this book, so I just recently reread IT and just like, okay, why is sams a murray? This guy is super rich at the time, is got the second largest when and accompany the world. And he's working in the fields in honduras, and he's with his Michaeli and he's cracking away and he's crossing honduras on a mule.

The entire link to ponder is looking for an advantage for his company while his competitors are sitting in the office building a boston. And we know how the story he kicks their s because of course he is. But it's like, why is that I so sess from the time he he was eighteen till he discovers what he called right, which is like a banana, that other banana companies should just grow away because only have like three or four days, maybe five days before rots and is useless.

So there's a line in a book is great. He made a calculation based off arrogance that he could be fast, where others were slow. Why is an eighteen year old penny st.

Russian immigrant in alabama think that he can be faster? And he sees an opportunity that a giant company called united free, which is one of the first to the international american companies. Why on earth does he think there are super rich, have all the assets, the world, that have the largest private navy in the world.

And this guys like, oh, I see an opportunity you don't see, and it's because of subsection sion and he starts there master that and he starts moving up and he goes OK. I'll buy regular ance. Okay, once I aster that now I will start buying my own chips.

Then i'll go to central amErica united fruit in quantum o i'll go next door, i'll go go to hurt and i'll started doing that. And that's the entire story. So I don't think there's anyway, it's going to buy a bike phy that is not obsessed.

I do think take a question. That is a fundamental trade and in my personal IT makes life worth living. If you have that as such, A, I could not live without an obsession.

People like go funders of pocket finders of business, yes, but it's una procession first. It's an obsession. Disguise as a pocket in .

a business is the thing underneath. Obsession, mostly curiosity, because the topic of obsession for these people is all different. The dicon once a perfect example.

It's hard to imagine getting inside of vacuum cleaner, but he did. There's some reason behind the obsession each time. What is usually behind that is IT just a basic system setting of curiosity and the person.

And how do you think people listening should apply this successive lesson to their own lives? Do you think it's too general to say that everyone should keep working and tell? We've become obsessed with something I .

do think is too general. I don't think most people ever find IT. The reason i'm successful just studying people I got to stop their profession is because one third of your life is going to be sweet working half of your conscious life, half of the time you're not sleep.

This can be spent working for some personality type. To not excel at that, not to be good at that, means that life is not to be a little different. If I had to guess which comes up a lot, I think there's some kind of deep rooted fight against a sense of inferior.

That is, underneath IT is interesting. This comes up a lot. There's a line in the Frances for a couple of bike phy that I read because I really love reading biography of film kers. That's the closest analogy to like what i'm trying to do a podcasting.

I read words and that's how I think about markets and that's facing and there's align friends for copal biography were embedded in the story of the sun is the story the father and his dad was the guy he wanted to be musician never made. IT was super bitter. So he raised Frances for coupla.

And they would just talk shit his dad was just talk shit about anybody was successful. And Francis is like, well, I don't want to be the person criticizing sucessful person. I want to be the successful person and copy the begin was clearly look at the trapper to do in the seventies.

The decade of china is like one genius move after another movies of people so much to this day. And he had this final al session with learning everything about fill making, working every single hour, he fall asleep while editing films. And I think a lot of that came was like how we saw the conversation.

Like some people have say, hey, I want to be like that guy. Other people have, I don't want to be like that guy. And those are equally powerful motivators.

I think of like sam autun. I just regret his fantastic og fear. He knows about that.

A rereading and over over again. And you see different things. And then rereading in between the first time reit and the second time at IT.

I really like two hundred other bike free functioning. So the words had in change, but I change, so the meaning changes. There's a time in that way before his side.

Walmart is obsess retail rate. His little five and time store is really successful. The guy that owns the building that he's renting from seize that and crews over them and he's like, oh, i'm not going to renew your lease.

And there, in a tiny town, population fight those people so that can go across the street and open another one. So what he did is just took same business from a copy that change the name and put in the same location. There is a scene in that book i've never forgotten, where sam is in his alternation office, trying to see the same thing do for and IT turns going to leases.

Like now you made a mistake. You didn't know any Better, your Young entrepreneur, but you didn't get the protection that have been in a little agreement. And sam is singer and launching, and uncle ching, his face and his cunning ing and his uncle ching is face and he's cunning ing is uncle ching is face.

Is that i'm not wait, I found this town. I found this store. I made this success.

I'll do IT again and he just picks up, i'm not going to look back at this. I won't again, go. The sound does IT again and does IT again again.

And then two or three iterations after that, he stumbles on warmer. So it's like that thing works like I had this drive and then he talks to on the book unhappy life, his parents had a crappy relationship. Whatever IT is that a kid experiences I don't know them can actually articulated because he's writing the book as he knows he's dying from cancer.

But that drove him to just be obsessive. And he's like, I didn't like spending any time house. So I went out, I went to school. I worked as much I could, and I was in every single club and accumulate single skills that I had.

He had this weird drive, neither, how do you know my life is really interesting? And it's because of the pocket with like half my day is spent reading, having one side conversations with history, which is what reading a bike phy autobiography get all these interesting ideas. How did? And then the other half is I get to talk to a bunch founders, listen to founders, and then that became a huge friend group.

And I get to talk all these really smart to people. And I can't think a one person that needs somebody else to motivate them. There's something inside of them. That's why they're doing what are doing to be invested to be an entrepreneur. IT doesn't work if you can't trust your own judgment.

So what kind of person is willing to take that risk? I know tony ers could even make more money if they went to go work for like gool or something, that they'd rather make less money in their own business, then work for somebody else. But there is something bizarre that I don't think you can explain. All you can do is notice and other people and then see those people all like, i'm not weird. There's a ton of people just like me.

IT brings to mind things most I talking about, which is this classic nature nurture debate in people, but is the idea of verse execution debate, or the inspiration perspiring debate famously said, one percent inspiration and nine percent perspiration. And maybe that's true in time. But what I found more recently is good ideas matter a lot.

If you don't have a good idea, all the prosperity in the world probably doesn't matter. I saw interesting idea somewhere recently. What was like, a lot of people can run mcDonald's franchise.

Not a lot of people can create a new. And i'm curious what you're reading of all these great entrepreneurs and founders words let you in this debate of inspiration versus prosperity. And for that, how you would assign what matters more or most obviously, they both matter. That would love to just hear you ref on these two two in concepts.

So there's two guys I discovered to the podcast once caught chain to jimsy e's fantastic book, a manokin and another guy called Alfred lee lomas. There is a bar graph m called taxi apart. And what shannon and luma had in common is they wouldn't argue their ideas.

I think a lot of a entrepreneurs in general, they spend time on twitter arguing about, should we be remote or should we be this? Should we raise money or should we do that? I gives a fuck, you have an idea and don't let anybody gain your way until it's done.

And if that's inspiration or perspires, wherever cases the idea obvious ly matters because I think the largest prediction of this success is the market of drapery. This is all over. One of buffer share hole letters is in this book that I have over here about Henry clay frick, Andrew carnegie, partner in one of the greatest entrepreneurs, ver live.

He benefitted from the fact that he was monopolizing the coke industry, coke not being coke, cola or cocaine, but coke is this ingredient needed to make steel and iron. And he was at the right place in the right market, is in western pennsylvania at the exact time he needed to. And guess what? You take that due.

That's smart. That's discipline. And you put him in a market that's decreasing. Let him run birkhead hathaway, the original textbook in the sixties.

It's gonna right into the ground, just like you could be a smart and it's hard working. Doesn't matter. I think more of the set of the idea, I think more like the market is way more important.

One of the things i'm so excited about, why am obsessed? And mean, you share the obsession, which I poyas sting like a miracle to me. We were talking about the importance of understanding, why is this guy so freaking obsess? why? Easy working seventies and we gone this.

This is psychopaths havisham. Because of the way I look at part casting, I don't look at IT as a means to an end. Podcasting is the printing press for the spoken work, the revolution.

The goodbyes unleashed when he invented the print press may have taken forty, fifty years, sixty years, hundred years to gain steam. Even goes faster now. But that is exactly what podcasting is every days ago.

We have too many part cast that's saying you have too many movies. We have too many books like that ridiculous. We have too many bad of anything. But there's always a room. And IT comes to media, anything that people consume for good things to grow and prosper.

To me, when I look at where do I want to spend all my time? Is there something i'm obsess with that i'll think about even when i'm not working? And then also, is that a growing market? You're telling me today we ve reached the peak of how many people in list n pocket.

That's abd that's absurd. And not only will more people find your pockets and my pocket, now there's people are haven't born that are going to be listening to episodes I don't wanted dismiss is that idea execution is like you need both. I'm sure there are some markets where they are going, going to pull the product out if you no matter what.

And if you're the only one in that market, that market can be. But I can't think of anybody that i've read a biography about that just like I stumbled into a good idea and I didn't have to execute relentlessly and over and over over again for long time. That's anything to where I am.

Only interesting people to do things for a long before time. There is a subset of people that can start great business or be a great investor for two years, five years, ten years. I missions in the people that you started the conversation saying about Edwin land and S A R.

Okay, two obsesses. They both have good ideas and reland less execution. S A laughter had to wait twenty years. He got completely obsessed with the a of beauty, didn't have the opportunity to serve her company because he was the same time to SHE was the reason I say listening you guys should be reading S A laughter's autobiographers because IT is my belief that if you ever bring her back to the debt and let her started company today should be kicking most entrepreneurs up and on the court Edwin to and started working on on when he like nineteen and work on until seventy he had like the third most patterns in american history behind Edison. And for a deal person who the help works on something from nineteen to seventy, that's incredible.

But what about the people underneath these leaders? I probably listen to fifty episodes or something of founders. If I just summarize, one of the interesting lessons is the dramatic importance of the individual, which I think runs a little counter, maybe how a lot of people wih the world was, where was more communal, and Steve jobs gonna merge, if Steve jobs particularly wasn't him.

Or I think the great individual theory or thesis a lot of people don't like. But as I listen to a lot of your episodes and these stories IT strikes me that the person matters a lot. And i'm curious what you've learned about the layer of leadership underneath the founders and if there's any common stories, teams, traits that you've suss out there.

I, anna, start with a quote because you just failed IT. And on the Edwin fan boy, I am on a mission because I mean, a tony snow. People don't know, you know, who is.

So maybe people, listeners don't know that he was see jos for sea jazz. See jazz met him when he was in astrology at wood, like seven years old, and still cameras. The meeting, meeting Edwin land was like visiting a shrine.

These ideas that you've undoubted heard from sea jobs did not originate with them. He literally took them from redland, the idea of building a technology companies, inter section technology and liberals, that's not see that was on every single presentation that he made an apple. He got the idea from every he literally talked about overnight.

He said, this is my hero. And Steve also had this deep power acknowledge which all these founders definitely have. All of them I have not come across the founder that was not curious about what the great people before they did actually made thirty minute in between episodes called Steve jobs in his heroes.

And I break down thirty nine, pieced on either Steve jobs are the people that he talked about, influences. Even when he he was Young, he was like tiny, and he could tell you how he felt. The invention of the macintosh was similar to alex integram bells invention, the telephone.

So how to holding? You know that at that age, that's remarkable. But evin said that there is no such thing as group originality or group creativity. He goes, I do believe, whole, hardly in the individual capacity for greatness. And he says, originality or attributes of a single mind, not a group.

What happens is, even if you ever want to confidence, do you really want a lot of these? We put confines, you can say one a, one b, whatever the cases, but it's always singular. It's never like a joint thing.

And what good is like fine people? I can play the role of the second or third. It's like, K, I want to be the smart st.

Person in the company. They all obsess. This is a warn buffet, David ogpa and zoo I sea jobs.

They only the social a players there's a great book called in the company of giants is on the floor. Next to me right now was fascinating about that is it's too safe. D, M, B, A.

Students in one thousand nine hundred ninety seven go and interview all these technology founders. You think about the growth of technology industry. And ninety, until now, they were clearly like, I had a time and was fascinating.

Is Steve jobs Young sea jobs? He just came back to apple sits for the interview. They interview str doesn't have much time to and I forgot the exact terminology, but he cuts them off.

He like, I disagree completely. Recruiting talent is the most important job as a founder. Think about the first ten people in your company. Every individual is ten percent of the company.

You will transition from a set up a Nathan idea to a super or successful company that creates a great product if you fuck up that part. That was his point that he was making there, and he knows that because this is a crazy. So you mention mike mortes earlier, mike mortes route, this fantastic book, the little kingdom.

I read the update version called the return to the little kingdom and was fascinating about that is that way before Michael, an investor? It's like the first, I think, six years of the history of apple. And when the book ends, the apple doing really well.

See, jobs told the company, but we don't know how the stories get in. So then I would read apple. And then what you need a job into that there's another book called see jobs in the next big thing I think is written by rental strs.

That book is about the thirteen years between he left apple and then he returned. I call IT brazil o Steve jobs because it's a gifted, intelligent entrepreneur making every wrong decision in the book. That book ends.

And ninety seven, he gives the interview. Thick us. How crisis is? He starts next. One of his first ten higher at next, is an interview designer for the office.

What the hell is happening here? You reading the book? Know, I know, see jobs smart, I know he counted how the, how did he do this? We talk a little about eagle before we start recording what is like.

It's very prone to let your ego get the best of you. People marry you because the work what happens like you you I say yourself, you're work really hard. You'll do lot of work.

That work draws attention of the people because as guys are life and then suddenly over time you confused like, oh, they don't like the work, they like me. And then I could just show up without having to the work and everything would be fine. And that next he just showed up is like.

i'm Steve jobs. Eagle is such an interesting one. That lesson is fascinating, confusing people liking the work for liking you.

I've never heard of phrase that way that is so dam interesting, wheels to see. Ego riots had good or bad attraction me that eagles like a negative connotation, don't want even ego. But you do want to be confident.

You do want to be cares matic. You do want to be a good sales person. Some of the things that I ego people, if you get at what other things you learned that you go, that phrasing is so helpful.

I actually don't think that you build a great company with the giant ego. I don't think that exists. Sam wolton has a good idea about that.

He's a good son. Your ego should use to drive you, but you should not be on public display. And he's like, I hire people at walmart with big eels.

They know how to hide IT because there is some weird thing will drives you was promised when you make IT a parent that you think that you're Better. Everybody else, in almost every story, you have a Young entrepreneur that needs some help. They are usually help by people that are older, have a lot more access to resources.

To think about how people are funding private companies out, you have super smart and determined founders, a lot of potential. Who knows what a person like that is going to be in ten or twenty years? But they need assistance, whether if they need resources, they need personnel, they need money.

What I realized this morning is this is guiding Thomas melon. And Thomas melon is wonderful, important people, american business history, because is the patric of the melon family, family times. What he did is he made a lot of money before and after the match.

Super war, he said, maybe fifty years old, super rich, owns about other banks. And after that he comes across a tiny one year old, Henry clave frick. Henry claim frick shows a lot of potential.

This time, melon can possibly know. Yet, forty years in the future, frick is going to be considered one of the best entrepreneurs. Dude, so much so, the Andrew carney season is like, and this team, and then they have a falling out.

There's a fantastic book called meet you and hell. I recommend everybody reads if you want to want to buy and carnegy and freak, it's about what frick told him. They had a falling out later when angers about to die.

Sense a letter to freak OK, let's recon, were living in the same city. We live a few box away. Let's get together.

And he writes back because I got betune hell. What was fascinating as melanie freak break at the very beginning of building this coke empire. That venture can be acquired by current company.

And melon season is like, oh, this another me. This is me when I was Younger. He approves along then for IT, takes our money immediately, depose IT, starts scaling up because is, hey, I got an opportunity.

I need to do this fast as possible. Goes back to mellon. I think he brought like a thousand and this eighteen hundred, so so a lot more morning.

Thousand six to bd. Thousand notes goes back almost immediate. This is, give me ten thousand mounts like you.

What the how are you doing here today? Sends one of his parties. Go check out this for guy. He seems that has potential to me, but I need to make sure this guys for the crap.

So mellon's partner goes in shadows free, and he writes back to my, and he's like a guy, works on the go, plants all day long, studies his books at night, knows his business down to the ground, makes along. And that is the first hand up that he gets that causes him to build monopoly in his industry. There was no one bee to fix coking.

Par is clearly here. What was present is, like, I didn't put this together the first time I read that book, because I provide, read a hundred fifty books, hundred fifty grapes. Es, I read the first time, but I had just recently been rereading books on john I rock fell and this skinning.

Jay gold pops up in rockfeller biography, every single one, which is really weird. Everybody's at titan, the most famous bargrave y jig. Py, what I do is I went in the biography titan, found a book that the author, one can now use research in order to.

It's a very old book, is like forty something years old. It's very hard to find. I read that book and am I wait? This is body rock fell in this area.

Chapter based on, jo, what has happening here? And then you see, when people ask rock for for the most famous entrepreneurs history, and they ask them, like, who's the best business? When you know, he said without hesitation, jo, without hesitation, then you have, quality is wonderful.

This is another thing we should talk about is how all these people want up doing each other. There is something to be like talking to other a players. And then you could any vulnerable, who who's a Richard person? America, a time for fifty years old.

And j gold, and he's like j to smartest person. America, so, so, okay, what the hell happened? So the author actually sent me the book a about a few j gold came like fifteen years ago.

It's going dark. Ten years of wall. Rik, something that these are formidable people saying, this is the one you got to pay to that.

Why is that happening? So I reading jager's biography, same situation is like twenty years or twenty one needs a leg up, meets this older, more successful businessman. But where melted is like, i'm successful, but you know, his ego get away.

He is like, I want to be this guy's partner. His success is not threatening at all. The difference in j goes life is j gold points are taking on older partner and exotic.

Prat, I think, is his name. I'm going off memory here so I might get name wrong, but that guy was super rich. Owned autonomy land in the northeast at the time, owned thirty different factories that would produce leather goods, and all the different factories would have different partners.

So he winds up doing a partnership. J, once doing some surveyed work form on some of island and jack psychos. Guy is smart, all partner, or put the money, i'll give you the expert and a new run with IT.

Well, j go is a straight genius. Wace modern oleg b and he runs with IT. He'll hit you up for advice and money.

But I think, oh, I got this. I can figure out he's coming up with ideas. The question about jays, this guy has been in the leather basis for forty years.

I'm coming with ideas. He doesn't see that threatened that ego. How do I know? Is that ego? Because the guy was so rich, he started own bank, put own currency.

Guess whose face he put on his currency this face? You know, mount rushmore in this town is like a big, like granet waller, a big rock formation. So, you know, mt.

Rushmore, you got all the presence on there. He hired somebody to carve his own face. Think of how you want to be.

I want people to come to my down and see my giant ahead, hovering above everybody. They are a partner. He didn't like that.

J stopped asking for advice. He thought his success in j. Jay was managing his leather factory, the companies, Better than his other partners. He didn't like they felt threatened. So he tried to maneuvre and he said, hey, we're get in the partnership.

You have to either buy me out for sixty thousand dollars, which is the money I put in, or I buy you out for ten, which is with the money you put in. He did that because he's like, this guy doesn't have sixty grand. They know that j has brain.

He knew this was coming, and he had secretly set up financing, and he was waiting for that to happen. Rocket filter is exactly story for his first partners in the oil and street. He had older partners, a dress groom, and he says, a great line is like, what? They were talking so loud, my mind was running.

What happens? Like, okay, i'm hitting this provision in our contract. You have to come over city grandes, like here at us and he takes off running. You had the opportunity to partner with one of the greatest countries ever. Do IT and you fumble IT because .

I ego confident. These people, men of women, break the law, or enter the grey area of the law building.

What they built in j golds case all the time, because the S. C, C. Was found IT forty years later to combat things that they did is eighteen.

There's no security. Is law did IT in saying things? There's no anti trust act yet. You could say, okay, is there a person like, see jobs in history? I just said there is is a person like elon mosque.

There probably is so many people that try to sell like overpromise in some domain was like Henry kr, who is as famous in his day as iron is today. There is not in the history. Entrepreneurship and equivalent to cornea is venable.

I read two books on him. If you said, okay, David, who alive today remind you most, according this vender able, I would save lam poo. Vender built, have nation level wealth, you could have turned his entire fortune liquid at the day he died.

He would have controlled one at a every twenty dollars circulation. Reason, I say, is not like anybody else. And yeah, he breaks the law is there's a fantastic book I did the past called tycoons war.

There is a third day, I think, his named William wallace. This is like three years more. William wallis, interesting. Eighteen, he had graduated law school, medical school.

Talk to a bunch of different languages is really smart de want to taking over a different parts of mexico, who is is very common at time. He was a military adventure. He wants to taking over, I think.

Nick r ogre. And this is the time where cornea is doing the transition from just having steamboats, and he's getting in the road roads. But this is gold rush.

So people are paying to be transfer from the east coast of the united states to get to california. The goldrush variable is a tone of money because he's one of the rare people that has steamships railroads and and boats to cut to south america. And he a and then i'll pick you up on the other side.

He had basically from a to z, he cut down travel time by like six months. So substantial value. So some of his ships were stationed in nicaragua.

And Williams said, hey, I over through the government. I am now the present of na. So these are my ships.

Vonderful tried, haven't killed. That's not hyperbolic. That is legitimate. He hired mercenary to go get him. He petitioned the sector state of both united states and britain. He's like, i'm not gonna e you.

I'm going to kill you the way they thought you could argue that some in history cards on first they might have been more. And i'm not saying go out over through governments, but they did same murray fishing either. Well, he did that a legitimate.

He funded a cool because you try to take away he's been in. I'm not saying these are good people. I'm just saying that they just look at to look a problem how we would like.

I can do anything. I guess myself is gone. Oh, he is my ships. What can do? I'll try to go to diplomatic channels and like, I just think guys of guns go try to do something, put what things going to happen to you.

It's funny to think about some of these examples. In contrast, lake english con or Alice the great or some of the great conquers through history where probably there's some similar friends to pull on in both errors but in the modern or were especially now like elon, everything he says you hear about four seconds later, the feedback loop is so much tiger. So there's probably less room for shannons.

Maybe maybe not as you think about the role of constant learning in the story's entrepreneurs, there is Michael Jordan. Quote, you sent me what you seem like, like successful people listen, and those that don't listen don't survive, or something like that. Then that's Michael Jordan.

You know, maybe the greatest athout of all time. Talk about the role of constant learning. This village. Back to ego too.

I think ego would maybe because you just stop learning because you think you know at all or something you've mentioned several times, people study the history of their industry. People are listening. They're learning. Save IT more about the commentary of listening and curiosity and perennial learning.

Not only is mico Jordan party the Grace basic al player, I believe you can make the argument that he was Better his jobs than anybody else has been as good at their job in history. Reading his biography changed my life, and I was that my good family. I was kid.

I don't have time to watch as well now, but like, i'm e's standing on right now. I recorded on my pocket standing up because I tried to to bring energy today. But like my photos on microphone n in the life is like a six hundred and ninety four, eight, five, five microphone.

What blew my mind about that is every single person, way before he even made his college team, till the time he was a professional baseball, they also the same thing. The dude was like a sponge. There's a great quote the next eleven said, and he said, the average players want to be left to on.

Good players want to be coach, and great players want to be told the truth. Michael had a giant ego and stand drive, but he would run up to the coach and tell me what I need to get Better at. So the reason I say that book change my life is this idea of practice.

How do you want to get that number? millions. How many get four hundred? maybe.

How many people get to the dream team in barcelona? A, in ninety two, which might be the greatest baskett team all time? Fifteen people.

The subset of a subset of a subset. So Michael is tired. He had been playing nonstop back to back is a man.

I really want to take some time off. I don't want to see my summer, but a little, but i'm going to go because I wanted see the practice habits. We're all the best of the best.

What am I doing is different than what they are. So what happened was he goes, he watched the way they practice, compared the way he practice in. The main theme of torne book is, I believe in practice, I would rather miss a game than miss practice.

That the same. He said something that gives me chills to this day. He goes, I washed the practice habits and he goes, they are deceiving themselves about what the game requires.

Best of the best tone of people on there. But when he was done, no one had more championships than he did. So I was like, dam, that's crazy.

This guy at the top of the top winning champion PS M V P scoring awards, also arguing, and he's still working harder. Neither us that lies successful people listen. Those who don't listen to survive on is from that biography.

And he's like, listen, I don't have that big of an ego that I can learn from other people all of his interactions for nars like that. I just talk about Edwin. Think about how crazy is that due to get started, he made his money in cameras and lighting.

So do I understand cameras to understand lighting? How did he understand living? He went to new ork public library and read every single book on lighting the hand.

He invented instant photography. Before Edwin land, you took a picture, you send IT kodak, and you got a back to. After I remind you, press a burden.

You have IT. Then that's insane. do. And what did he do? He didn't say, look what i've done.

He goes in higher ancel atoms, who he thought was a fantastic photographer. And he says, he's like, my aim is to produce the most picture perfect making process. And you have shit in your brain that can help me achieve that, the learning machines. So like, okay, whether it's a book with the podcast, whether it's cabbin person. So I hate that person as information I need, I want to see if I can talk to them.

You mentioned he would land. There is this great quote that I think is in here, which is something like anything worth doing is worth doing to access again, I like when you send me stuff is when is at odds with common wisdom? You know, everything in moderation or something like that? Talk about that excessiveness.

And what i'm interested in is hard to work. IT seems as though one of the modern things is to have a more baLance, more freedom, more flexibility. I think if you look at all these biography, everything I listen to from you definitely not the days for these people.

And again, like you've said, we're not suggested these people are the ones to Emily, just that the ones that have created extraordinary outcomes. But talk about this, everything worth doing, worth doing to access. How you think about hard work? Do you know you work in your ass off to create founders? What do you think about excessiveness and hard work?

The full line is what everyone says is like there's something they don't teach at harvard business school. If anything we're doing, we're doing to access, I put to get of maxims because you're gone to remember that successful people listen those who don't listen to survive on now, sick your brain. And you understand the idea behind that.

And this is as old as humans. They've been talking in maxims, in common sense. And harmonies forever take about why song works sticky, because the second idea condense down.

One of my favorite ones, in the main team of the his fund nerve is the right to look at my phone. On my phone, my last screen is a picture up, earnt a shackleton, the famous polish spoor who looks like hell, get a huge beer cover. And ice looks like it's about the die.

And his family model was by and dance, we conquer. Which is why I told earlier, I motion people do things for a long time because at every single step, these people are presented with opportunities to quit and they don't so that I don't have to be the smartest. I don't have to be the best.

I don't have to be the talent. This is what I believe myself. I don't want to be the best.

I don't be the smartest. I want to be the most time I did that lasted and i'm not given up. I had a bunch people offer like parter up or buy the power test, whatever you like.

You're going at an extrem Epace, which I really don't feel like I am because I just read. There's no trick here. I pick up a book and stare at IT, and I do that for a few hours every day, seven days week, three hundred sixty five days year.

My daughters like, why are you reading is your birthday? Why are you reading is Christmas? Because i'd like to read and if you do something for three or four or five hours every day that most people don't do, you're going to develop a value for other people.

The world, that's all the businesses. The best scription of a business I heard came from Richard branson. He's like all businesses.

It's an idea or service that make somebody else life Better. If you make other people's life Better, you will capture that value and return. So I don't find many these people modern.

I went to read this quote that I have see on my phone sellers. It's by bill. Girl is called running down a dream. How to survive and thrive in a job you love.

But in that he profiles five people that do exactly what ichael that did, exactly what every lanta he profiles bob dalen, the musician Bobby night, the coach, Daniel ire, the restaurant tour, sam hinky and Katrina lake. What bill gurley did in an hour, he breaks down. What are all the trades or what are their approaches to work that is similar? What is an entrepreneur do with a musician? A lot.

What is a restaurant turn or have to do with a bath worker? A lot. The same ideas applied to different domains, none of the people described are moderate.

That's why in an hour build just breaks out perfectly. It's insane. I just finished reading bob dolans. Autobiographers is the book that bilgi red that do literally discovers folk music, finds out who does folk music the best.

Listen every hour of his day that he's not playing, bill has turn for this professional research, which I think is exactly founders. How do you get Better to job when you're not working? It's all that learning, the concept, practice that professional research undone.

So but don engages and profession research, listing every single record, and get a hand on making friends of people that have part define records. And he discovers, woody got, I got to go find A I, I have many apples. I have no money.

My closer title, but I have a guitar. I in a dream, i'll go to the side of the road and stick my dumb out. And I will hit to new york city with ten dollars in a guitar case, find out.

And exactly question to, could I have my phone? I've had this school since two thousand seventeen. I'm not a fan of moderation.

I'm attracted to took extreams. What do you want your life experience to be? Do you want to be exceptional? Do you want to push the boundary of your capabilities?

Do you want to walk around in a fog, budding up against your potential, but never actually realizing IT then knock yourself out, be modern. I'm not interesting that so I can do the podcast less than I do. All I can do is say, hey, this thing, the subsection sion mind will overtake my life.

Because i've seen another stories where I can ruin my life, so I have boundaries. I have a baLance every day. The only thing I fired out is because I have just a person out to see you are a ton of people are, they are listening as well.

So what I realized, like, okay, is that working like ton of hours, five days a week, i'll just spread everything. I don't have a baLance. Seven days a week.

This is at door. I literally just read both took is a blue and I just at dork says every hour you spent on finance is one less day in hospital. First thing I do is wake up morning and I do an hour, some kind of physical activity, whatever you like to.

Then I work, I send time of my kids, I spent time of my wife and I talk to friends. Maybe have an hour to something that's fun. But really work is my hobby and that the vanagon have over other people somebody listening my saham.

We do a podcast on history, friendship, go head, you should is like a zero some game. But i'm only gonna this. I'm not going to start a fund.

I'm not to start another other business. I'm only going to do this. And a lot of this is where it's comforting to me, where I need you a list of people at our city.

Dan, who will love with what a crazy book I read is called the invisible billion aire book, is very hard to find. This guy was the richest person in the world, and you knew he was, and he competed like ersoy asis. Everybody knew who own as well as he's married.

Jacket in canada, an should like that. This guy, his work is his hobby. Ed reman work with his hobby Henry ford and zi s day laughter Henry chia, David ogi warn buffs, samurai for node a cos and good on the list.

You just haven't advantage because you love IT. There's a guy named Larry Miller. He was the richest entrepreneur in utah.

He on the utah jazz, he would like ninety different forking businesses, like a thirty thousand grave for house on the hill and he's writing his autobiography as he is dying and he saying, my life is a cautionary tale. Every hour, every minute, I was awake and this comes from child o trauma. His mom called the cops on, i'm sent on the general, kicked them out at this weird and sessions drive.

Describe like some weird sense of inferior or ty, right? And he's overcoming. I worked every other of the day.

I don't know my wife. I didn't know my kids now i'm dying. I'm kinds getting to know my grandkids.

But he was excessively obese. And the entire book is not like, hey, look successful. Him might be a billionaire ever is is I don't do this.

I screwed up. Think about this guy is unlimited resources and he gets to the end of his life. Feels like if I could do all over again, I would work less.

I would have took care of my health, I would spend time with my family, and I would have had fun. I never had fun in life that is terrifying to me. That should scared the hell out of everybody.

Anyway, that's obsessive. That again, with his e, if you don't have girl is dangerous. And he was crazy, he dies. So he's working with a co rider, and he dies before the book is done. The ash chapter is his wife talking to the coauthor, and he goes, I M Larry, but it's not like he was here when he was alive.

If you think about the role of a soul of a business, I think these some minutes trinkl from city harmon, where founders serve as guardians of the soul of a business. How you think about the soul of your business? The business is you in many ways.

But if if we were to have an independent soul, I want to talk with this concept more generally. Two, but I always start with, you describe the soul of founders. What does this stand for?

I'm not a good example that because it's an obsession that just happens to be a pocket and pogis ers happen to be businesses. I feel like i'm like the gero dreams of sushi, of the pocket world. What is like? You have a massive audience, you have people around you, you have a movement.

The way I think about is I read this goom, which is obvious. The video do there's john mary and john carmack. And john carmax says something in will cause the rift of their partners is like romero wants an empire.

I just want to make great games. Somebody hit on this founders is like a hand made product. And I like, thank you, because that's what I think about a handmade product at scale.

Because of the miracle of py cash, I can do everything myself. I don't have anybody helping me. I edit and I also don't have script.

I just read books and and I just have a conversation like I would if we are at dinner just like gero dreams, sushi, every other podcast or are I talked to the all super smart they are like, do you're crazy? You told me that why tell you editing your own thing? Why are you doing this? And it's because, like, I have to I don't even have a choice.

So actually talking to founder later on today who's really shark and I met him to the podcast and like I don't want to see you is all he's really well now he's got a theory about this. And again, I like talking for more people to think I doing IT wrong, which I I don't take a fence that at all, please. Like you're crazy that so is just me.

It's like a person that is a business. So the reason I think that's the best description of a founder i've ever heard. It's not the same things like managing a company that's been around for fifty years as somebody all started.

Maybe the founders been dead for a long time. I really do think that's the role of the founder. Sydney harmon worked on his company for fifty years.

You might know his name because anytime you gonna like a electric car harming carton, that's the guy who started the company. So he goes a role, founders, the guarding, the company's soul and all these books. There is a decision you can make, the compromise, the quality, your product, or take a shortcut, or do something you would never dare do.

IT, I just read the battery of the guy that started in the now compared to his contemporary to mcDonald and cross junior, and all this explosion of fast food that was happening at that time in american history, not financial. So no, not nearly only had seventeen stores when he died, but he was obsessed with quality. Everybody saying ham in the use, frog beef, he said, I am add to and to you because I not changed my menu at all.

It's that intense love. There's a coat. Anybody knows this? Go fly ally and try to go to in and out. Good luck. I was just early two month ago, try to go in out twice because I read the book.

I'm not waiting in a like there's a cold around in the now because the expression of founder soul is manifest in the product people to have in an out tattoos s how many people cda d states. This is also people like which your goal that you, anna, make the biggest, highest an world. Now I want to make the best pianiste in history, newera in the world.

That doesn't mean that will have more download any else. I'm fine with that. That's not my goal. Just like if you study now, obviously the apple being dominated.

A majority of apple, they do their, is that what? Two percent of market, five percent of market. Microsoft was killing everything. I, B, M. Destroyed everything. The important things.

What do you want to build? Some people, I talk to founders, and they say, I want to make an enso for a level of clash ship on their product for oris being handmade. And some people take the ford road forward.

And borry existed the same time ford tried to buy for ry is a great line in the movie for the way the guy is playing. The I cocos like we should be thinking, like furori is a for. And this hugely egotistic, dismissed guys that we spend more on tour ET paper than they spend on their whole production and is a cable when you take a Victory, you don't take a ford, take a for ori.

So you have decide there's nothing wrong with that. I thought to turn founders like k, you see when they want to go big, it's like I want to make a billion dollars or IT is like a number attached to the business, become with the founder whisper, I have this conversation of people just, hey, I just want to talk to the ship and going through with you. And if there's anything that in your brain you've seen in this books, let me know.

And a lot of these conversations will start with my goals to be x or to make attending ling. Our company is so okay. I will save the same question for your entrepreneur heroes.

Everybody copy somebody, do your human. I always have a maximum of pockets. Ts at the mind is a powerful place, which you feed the affections a powful way.

I am very careful when I learned to my mind. So i'll have these conversations. And those are listing off all these people that influence the way to think about entrepreneurship.

And I was like, go read up on him, did see jobs ever say I want to make a hundred million or company? That was never in discussion. He said, I want to make insanely great products. And then I want to get really good in marketing because I want everybody in the world have an apple device. And the way to do that is to get really good marketing ing.

It's very easy to confuse yourself, and that's why if your confuses the founder and you're the guarding of the company, soul, the reason I admire see job so much, i've never come across another person that thought clear than he did. If you could copy one thing, I see jobs would you are now? I want his clarity of thought.

It's insane like how much mental computation for decade after decade that that guy had to go to to clarify his thinking about that. You know, exactly what is important. Time is a great book by kan kosan, a called creative election.

He demote Steve jobs said the same thing he goes to. Steve was at the center of all circles in apple. He was like a oracle le of delphi. But the different team, Steven oral delphi, was when you asked the oral delphi a question, you get back some kind of reader you have noted with the house going on.

When you get feedback from Steve, there is no abdul, you know exactly what Steve wants to do and that that is like there's no like all confused the court that comes to mind when I think of the founders garden company. Soul is actual code. Steve jobs, it's in one of the books.

I read a bottom. And he says he made and remade apple in his own image. Apple is Steve jobs with ten thousand lives. That is me goose s because that's exactly what the founders should be doing. It's impossible to build a company to spend all your life energy on IT and not have IT involved with your personality, with your ethics, everything that you think about your business and your life is going to sit into IT. The good and the backwards.

He reminds me, me of conversation. Have a tony shoe who started dorax tony, very mild man, very humble, almost quiet person, which is why this quote from him stands out. My memory is so strongly, which is asking about culture.

What do you think about constructing the culture of a company is? Answer is basic. Like I think a culture of the company should like eighty or ninety percent, just the personality of the founder.

And that said, IT should be the extreme characteristics of the personality of the founder, because if you try to make a generic, nothing stands out, there's no progress and erh a dominates. I think that's basically what you're saying. These stories are fundamental. The stories of individuals replicating themselves in some interesting way, like you mention with jobs and the marketing thing, is such an interesting angle that I don't think, you know, everybody talked about because so much of the time we think about the products, and that's mostly what we ve talked about, the phone, the polaroid dair plane, the whatever. And we don't think about as much the story in the marketing.

What have you learnt about all of these people as a relates to marketing that they all tend to be good at IT? Was IT just a means to an end for them? What do you learned about how these people distributed? Or got the word out about their products over time.

I'm a collector of maxims and ethics. Ms, and I think my favorite one might be actions express priority. I don't look at what you say, just look what you do.

They're marketing genius, all of them. What do you call a person is gifted at customer acquisition or distribution founder? There is a ton of people that have great products and no one knows about.

So you feel that that effectivity. I've read a book called in saying this simple, which is writing by one of the guys that worked at the add agency that apple use. And he compares, in contrast, in the book deals approach to marketing when he worked for them and apples.

And he's like Steve told you with his actions, that marking was important. And how do you do that? Every wednesday, we had a three hour meeting, and this is like maybe post ipod before I found somewhere in.

But after they were already having a lot more successful, we came back. And because we had to to be every meeting and still would review every single marketing, add every single thing. There was not a fucking billboard that was gonna go up until Steve said that was okay.

And the reason is important because a lot of people that present their companies marketing important and IT just works. Steve showed with his actions. And then you have enter floris just on top of mind because I read three other fes of them, and I just read all of my highlights yesterday with american genius too, because he's winning lemons.

That's how he job start his company. And because of for sensor Victory, you have all these rich americans flying italy and they'd want to meet. And so far, ries, very mysterious.

He wouldn't. You see his eyes eat where sunglasses in every meeting he did on the purpose. He thought they like the windows to the soul. He didn't want you really.

So, and what you do is employees were catch up giving a tour of this rich guy, and the guys like, oh my god, ends of these cars of fantastic. I must have one, any goes. I appreciate that.

I'll see what I can do. I might able to get you one, you know, maybe six months, maybe five month now. And then the guy believe, and the employ would go back, cancel.

We have a parking lot full of unsold tories is like a fLorry has to be desired. He knew IT is very so much to that fantastic arcas you just did with rolex. With the climate. You see that same idea with a purposely limit production or don't even tell you how much they're making.

There is a secrecy element to IT and women same when you we think about how much c about practice for his presentations, he got every and we land would do all kinds crease up, right before he invented a camera. He invented polzer. So what of his main inventions was, when you were driving at night, you would be blinded by the oncoming highlights of other cars.

So he has that film put over IT. He was trying to sell IT to a bunch of other car companies. And there's a story in one of the biographies where he rents hotel room.

He fired the word the sun is going to be at specific time, which, otoh, room that he needs to get the has a window that faces that he puts like a fish ball there. And then he invites the people who try to selling. And at the perfect time, IT shows the light emanating through the minutes of fiscal with without the polarization.

And that's sold. So it's like that thought process, what disney, fantastic, fantastic for. Hint, what disney have one thing in government, both their first companies of background to, like, people don't know what.

Disney, everything. Oh, one of best founders ever. How could he not be right? Everything, use a cartoonist. Yes, invented animation for successful falling in animation movie.

But if you ask what disney, what is most proud of? His most proud things, one, starting his company, keeping control bi c, because he lost control of his first company. And two, dismal did not mention animation when he was dying.

He's in the hospital dying. His brothers partner, roy, they're looking at sealing of his hole room, and they're going over the planes for a cut he never got see IT because he was dying. This is very common cold tion else. I think they worked to the day they die. And so free daily, there's no retirement that have been retirement from change licence was in retirement to see js.

Well, well, this was get to that is also the amusing park is I K why are you making a music? But people don't understand that back then is a music part for seen a low life stuff really like dirty for scam parties, like a circus. So what did he says? Something was genius.

Feel like why you building a music part of dirty, low class places? He was exactly. Mine won't be.

And the way I afraid that my mind is their mediocre is my opportunity. There is not a great amusement. I will be the first.

He said, okay, I need to raise money to fund this land he ve brought against his house board, against life insurance. He was crazy money. He should have been way more wealthier than he was.

He package the financing and marketing together. So he's like, A, B, C. I'll do this weekly show. I'll be the one hosting IT founders guardian.

The company saw they would show some things from his animation, but then they would also show, hey, this is what we doing, the park. Essentially a weekly add that people were watching willingly. As a result, he gets money from that.

He gets perfect marketing advertising for that maybe the best ever. N, A, B, C puts up A, A large percentage of the money needed to make the part. And what happens as a result of people watching this was when the higher rated shows on television for year, the day he opens the park is the biggest traffic jam in order county history. So it's not just i'm gonna the very best product he considered a museum park like a cat is just a physical movie building a fiscal movie. So going to make the very best music forever is to have .

the very best market. IT sounds like a common team. And all these stories is process as art by revealing the process behind the product.

They're so obsessed with that. That is a common marketing story. Is that right to see that over over?

I read warm up of cheering le letters and to me is like how many people have studied more founders and more businesses? Then warn he says that David og, via genius on my who's David o this is years ago, and I find David ogawa. He's now one of my person here.

I read five books on, and what did he did? He did exactly with every single other concern's that figured out what was the best shit that happen before I was alive. Hey, those are good ideas.

Human nature doesn't change. Let's use step. So gave A D gbe wind up in the very large chapter of ogborn vertigo.

He talks about the six people, the six advertising giants, to came before him that he studied, if they relive you, be friend IT. As another thing to really talk that's important is like going on action, meeting these people, you can. And then he would just take all these ideas and build on.

His point was, there is no such things of business that is boring. It's only boring advertising. And he is this, it's born to you because you do IT everyday. But if you explain to the customer the process, they'll find IT interesting.

So he did this for like explaining the bruise process for one of the beer account, yet the person that the beer company, so like, I don't want to do this, every other bruy does, is this way too. He goes, yeah, but where the only one time story, so he spends three weeks of three, must remember researching the hell out, a roll's voice talking to the engineers, reading on the material. He wants to reading a fifty page document.

There's one line in IT that says the loudest in the car at fifty mile was the clock inside. And he used that as a tag line and then put a couple thousand words of copy. What does he do? Maybe the best, if you want to call the media company, I can think of another company that has the asset that this has.

And IT started with a huge fight with roy disney, who is the brother. The business aspect of that and what disney they were having fight in one of their books were just like how much in the cost and well says were innovating. I'll tell you when i'm done to go into the process behind IT, that book decision goes into IT and your brains like almost like opening the commons.

He shared with entire country all the work and effort in detail that went into IT. I shot to trader joes for a long time. It's a weird place.

interesting. I like IT. Okay, reading the biography of the guy that started IT, you have to understand why they're doing, what you're doing.

The example I would use is when I talk about sometimes on the packets, because people like that sounds like you have really good, or you can remember this stuff, you must have really good memory, actually, not the way I make the park cast. I read a book, make the highlight. That's the first time I at the highlight.

The book is done the night before record. You should recur the morning the night before. I'll reread all the highlights the second time I read the highlights. Now I record the pocket. That is the third time I heard the highlights. I edit the podcast, that is the fourth time i've heard the highlights, and in the fifth time is I had to take pictures to revise up and literally input them physically one by one.

You should takes hours to do this, as the fifth time people known that when they feel comfortable pressing play, when they listen founders, he's like, first, all this dude, everything opposite, he said to read entire book to prepare that kind of crazy. And in second of all, he's just reading a casually doing at once. He's read these words five times and then i'll reference them in future episodes.

And the only reason I able to reference in future episodes, I did that five times. So objects any part of your product that seems but now or ordinary to you, I promise you, no one is thinking about your business is much deal the favor business of mind in the world. You think about IT less than probably five minutes to be. Nobody is thinking about, I give so you have shit in your brain that is interesting to customers. And then you could package that up and use that as marketing to get more customers.

One of the lines that stands out from listing all your stuff, I think, is the kino s founder who said that is x you adopted IT that his exit strategy is, I think about, uh, summed up what we talk about so far. You would sort of be find your obsession, uh, and then make your exit strategy deaf, right? Like your exit strategies not make a billion dollars or ten billion dollars or whatever.

Uh, it's this just lifelong pursuit of your life's work, right? I'd love to put that out of you in podcasts. My suspicion is like you've suggest other afternoons that have done, you've study the history of of this industry who are your idles in entrepreneurship, whether i'm is specifically curious about podcasting as a business and that's what you're doing.

But what if you learned about podcasting and why is so exciting as a business? Uh, you've mention a little bit about the garden bird press for you know, for audio or for the spoken word. But if you pay, bill girl is kind of bob belen, you know, trained to train the new york concept to podcasting, to yourself. What comes up.

I have a unique advantage of bob didn't have there is barred to entry. Almost all the people that are examples like that. There is very and somebody that has to sign you, there's somebody has to hire you if you like Bobby night. What I like my podcasting is, is completely permissionless.

If I think about what is the skills said that I have, is I can lock myself in a room with a book, a ton of a spressly in a microphones, and i'm going to come out every five or seven days with an audio recording that is gna help you at your job. The thing I like about IT, it's all work and no work about work. I just talked about this thing as A D hoc pycke.

But he pops up and over again that so many of them get this solution with the business of business, and a lot of them wish they could go back to. When I was just a small team, they were public, yet the nobody's name. They were actually doing some of the work themselves.

Humans are terrible predictors of what they actually want to say. OK, i'm doing the work now, but I can't waste. I can hire team to do IT, then scale that up.

And then I find myself, fifteen years later, running this giant multinational corporations. Oh, I don't like this anymore. Think about this.

I just read amazon on about jack faces, one of my hairs, one of the best obviously ever do IT. That's not really saying anything. I like the everything store more than like them on on bound.

But amazon on down. You get to the end of one of the note I wrote in the margins. Think about IT being the CEO of amazon is not fun, because if was fun, he would do IT.

Would you really look force of if you can stay at very beginning, guys got any pads on taking the books to U. P. S.

himself. You don't want to stay in that case but one thing is, I was obsessed by cast way before even had one. So as a byproduct that mean you were talking about to see other day where people can give you bad advice on podcast.

And there was a piece of advice that I heard and I, oh, that person said that doesn't like part, because if that person love pod casters, no fucking way, that will come out of their mouth. No way. So that is why my pakistan designed the way is Richard.

I'm doing as much as I can. I just want a way to be me at scale. I don't want to read from a script.

I don't want have to put on an act, because if I want to do this for forty years until I die, whatever is, you can't fake who you are when people talk to you or people talk to me, where do they say, oh, man, I listen so much. I feel I know you. You do.

You cannot listen me for four hundred hours. So this my best. And like, I have some weird other personality. This is so unna, because I need a lot of people from the show. And oh, how dinner with them, they also variations, is like getting a private podcast. This is literally how I wanted to be of just meeting over the front every week, saying, I write some course this here, some stuff you might wants to know, you might find IT helpful. As far as heroes in the parking in domain, I feel the best podcasting ever live is dca in a parking history.

The reason I have a single person show is because of that, i've not only bought his backside alok over over again, but I just listen to his podcast over over again for a long time now been a lot of audio box, but almost every night I was six to voice. The fact is, he inspired me to go the extra effort. One thing I want do, I want to do two pockets a month or year.

He does like, I get sad if I don't record every week, I can get what I like is to be like thirty books. And then he'll do an episode. I saga, well, these reading thirty books for episode just two a year at sixty books.

Others read dom every five to seven days, and then just released A S A com. I have a personal fetish part as where the end in the early IT is multiple per series, which is really cool. But they are like an hour a half, multiple series, like five hours.

I get lost. I don't enjoy as much. I still love him, but I like, I don't like five. Our long podcast, but we update IT again.

I don't like really long chapters and books is the same thing like give me a break, do if you just want to peer entertainment. Somebody affect to me was bilberry monday morning podcast, which is is low package. You can also get most people, at least people like a unius sing, I learned.

But what I like about this is like he's been doing every year for over a decade. He shows up every week, don't listen, is religiously, I used to, but I don't think he's skipping any weeks. And he just sits up and he talks directly to you for now, and he might be talking about life in all other stuff.

But it's perfect because if you really think about IT, what I don't like and why I think you see pockets, I have bigger audiences and like cable news because it's all fake human desire, authenticity. The words are coming on my mouth, are not coming from words that somebody wrote on a teleprompter. This is a fake shit.

If a friend talk you like that, you get up from the dinner table and walk like, and I was wrong with this guy, you're sweating, you kicked up makeup, but why are you going makeup? I think humans are authenticity in the reason so bullish on pockets. Sing as a business is because the village story's teller is as old as language, except now the village isn't just ten people on a camper camp, seven billion people.

The reason why i'm so bullish and founders is I think it'll take really interesting places, assuming I don't quit. But I don't point on you're like you're wasting your time. You'll never achieve scale.

Go start like a enterprise software business. You make a lot more money. So I just made my life chasing money, doing something I hate.

Great to my. Thank you very much. And I just like why wani reach ale do like OK.

Now what's the biest podcast? Maybe the bigger podcast is like ten or fifteen million people as yeah, but now they do. How many people are interested business?

How do you go entrepreneurship in the way I think about IT? How many people are connecting to the internet, speak english in our interest partnership? There's like a hundred and fifty million business zones around the world.

Something like that. Somebody out there has Better number to united. But last time I look IT was like that. I don't think this is like some small nature tude. I got a freak email yesterday, and I love this shit.

This is why i'm so obsessed IT, because you never know what are going to do with the work you put out there. This dude, listen to my podcast. I did like three, four podcast on japp.

So he's like, do listen your past, help me get a job as an engineering amazon. And then he emailed music, I love your podcast, I wrote the software, and now he's analyzing all the books and writing out a software problem to map out the connections for us. And he's going to, like.

make IT a will forever. What do you think are the, if any, major aspects of the people that you ve studied that we haven't talked about yet? I feel like we've talked about people's obsession, their entrance, the dark sides, maybe of some of these lives, the role of marketing, the role of the team.

We talked to be a lot. The role of the market. Are there any other major things that you find yourself constantly like pointing out of segment in the book and say, here, IT is, again.

we may not talk about the most important, and that the best maxim and history interview was said by the founder four seasons, that excEllence is the capacity. Take pain. Anybody trying to do something difficult? How many people want to do like a great achievement with their lives? Every single living person that is ever lived.

No one's I go, I don't want to doing thing, i'm here and or just die. No, they have ideas they may never persue. They may have the courage and we attempt, they may fail. Think like the difficult that he had to do of trying to make knowledges hotel chain.

But at time, the best hotel chain, the world and all the struggle they had to get to in his autographed, his wife, wake on the midnight, like staring at the middle ceiling, just rack with guilt. Anybody has ever done anything difficult is the company. Anything knows.

The europe and terror is the entrepreneur emotional roll coaster. And the reason that I think it's so important to talk about because IT is supposed to be hard, there's not a book they're gna pick up where the guys like, r woman, hey, I have this idea. I started IT, everything went great and dental IT doesn't happen.

And so what's first thing to me is I never know what books are going to ones with me either. What I really try to tell people, like there were so many times, like no one is a shit about founders. This isn't gonna.

I am trying to grow uh podcast that doesn't have interviews, I don't have social media and i'm introvert or to and you have to make a commitment like a podcast is like choosing a friend. I'm asking you to spend an hour our and a half with me. It's not like a thirty second tiktok to this is a high bar here.

This was mate has made always give up. And a lot of what pushes me is these stories like all okay. This is Normal when James licenses in the autobots phy that there's many nights in years that he came in. He had two mortgage in his house. He spent the whole day trying to build prototype a blue, but his facing work at the end of the book, the recent important, it's against the odds, and about a few games days, hard to find, but get a py order. And he says, listen, it's easy for me to celebrate my dog.

Dss, now, I made three hundred million dollars a year, but I be lying to if there wasn't times where I went inside my house, had my wife look at me in the face like my failure, and I cry myself to sleep, and I got up and did IT again anyways. Because excEllence is the capacity. Take pain.

I apply this like, I don't like work and I feel like to cardio. I don't give a shit, David, where how you feel, how you feel is irrelevant. As an idea I got from Harry ford, you read his automotive phy, because I feel sorry for this.

I think of soft and flappy men. They can only do great work when I feel like IT. There was one of the first episode founders every day. There was like two hundred people listening. At that point.

I read the quote, and I go so essentially angry for to saying, fuck your felix that line for some reason really because I think no people are listen to this. And what Henry four point was, just a business exist to serve other people. So how you feel there's to be days where you get out of bed and you cannot wait to get to work and is great.

And there's going to be days where you don't want to go to work. And that is irrelevant because the business is not about you. The business does not exist for your pleasure.

The business exist to serve other people was surprising to me, is in read wise up, I can segment books by author. One lesson read IT. First, I segmented to by what book is my highlighted.

The most shot at us, IT, was the autobiography, cattle creativity, in which the founder pixel. One thing that is in that book that I think is the perfect illustration of this idea that excEllence, the capacity, take pain. And that IT is supposed to be hard.

I just heard standing ly drunk and meller. He talked about this, the exact same phenomena, I think. So I was working for George soros know I might have this wrong, which is kind of crazy, and he's like a lost watch of money.

He just went away for a while, is like, I can do this anymore. I'm not good at IT. I'm an idiot depressed.

He, like, I just got to go away. The difference between standing and a million other investors and entrepreneurs, a million other people did that. They went away and they never came back.

But he overcame his like, i'm in pain. I'm gonna keep going forward. So there is a filmmaker that works for pigs, are that put this beautiful y and he used the metaphor of doing anything difficult for your eye purposes of building a company.

And he says, if you're selling across the ocean and your goal is to avoid weather and waves, then why the hell yourself you have to embrace? The sAiling means that you can control the elements and there is going be good days and there's be bad days. And whatever comes you do with IT, because your goal is to eventually get to the other side, you will not be able to control exactly how you get across.

That is the game you decided to be in, which is exactly hen philes. They don't want a company do. That is the game you decided to be in. If your goals to make IT easier and simple, don't get in the fucking boat.

We will call this episode passionate pain, like those seem to be the two themes of people's obsessiveness willingness to devote themselves to something, but also then to endure a ton of hardship in pain. I think it's a good place to leave IT. I think you also know my traditional causing question for people, what is the kindest thing that I ever, ever done for you?

The kindliest thing anybodies ever done for me happened a few decades before I was born. My grandfather on my dad side was living in cuba, who was thirty years old. He had a wife and a newborn baby when the cuban revolution happened in castro to power.

He didn't understand the language, had no money and no education, and yet took the gigantic risk. And the complete correct choice at that time is life, to flee cuba, to go to america, to give his family a Better chance and a Better opportunity. That one decision changed the entire jetty of my life.

None of my interest that I happen to be naturally borne to the passions that chose me, that I did not choose, would make a lick difference if I grow in castro, cuba as appose to amErica and as somebody that studies get people for a living. IT really resonates how our decisions not only affect our loved ones now, our family now and our friends now, but they reverberate through the generations. And if you think about IT, not as the context of what's going to happen in life this year or next year, but what the decisions are making affect people that aren't even born yet. You'll make your decisions differently.

So wonderful closing thought. I guess i'll closed by just saying what i've said elsewhere are, which is I find your show to be almost like a meditation APP entrepreneurs where the open meditation to sort of get recentred and I find something similar and that word comforting, which you mentioned ed earlier, definitely there for me too if like, oh, wow, there's lots of people. Who are not about whatever is that they're doing.

And it's comforting certainly for me, but also I think for tons of people that listen to your show to just keep constantly reminded of the agony, the x Stacy, the journey of building something or creating something. And it's like nothing else that i've encountered for this specific c function. And so i'm just such a huge fan. I've so enjoyed talking you over the last several months, getting to know you and listening. And I am so enjoy this conversation today.

Thanks your time. I appreciate the support. You've been amazing, do IT and I really appreciate IT, and I thank you very much. I put a lot of my life energy into IT and to somebody especially say that you get I don't take every .

grand body means if you enjoy this episode, check out join colosse stock com here, you'll find every episode de of this podcast complete with transcripts shown, notes and resources to keep learning. You can also sign up for our newsletter glosses weekly, where we condense episodes to the big ideas, quotations and more, as well as you are the best content we find on .

the internet every week.